Solo divers' obligations to other divers

[FritzCat66]

One issue that came up often in the thread discussing a pony diver assisting another OOA diver (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/374743-pony-use-when-assisting-ooa-diver.html) revolves around the level of obligation a solo diver has to other divers who happen to be in the water with them.

So, let's discuss that here; among the questions that arise, I think the critical ones are:


What are the obligations - if any - a solo diver has towards other divers who happen to be in the water?


Should a solo diver reserve gas or other resources for another OOA or troubled diver? Why or why not?


It's probably important to define "obligation" in this context as well; for example, is a solo diver truly obligated to plan gas for other divers, the way a buddy is? Or is it simply something which "might be wise"?

I considered posting this in the solo-friendly Solo Divers opt-in forum, but since this involves the interaction between solo divers and other divers, I thought it best to keep it in the open Advanced forum to get the opinions of non-solo divers as well.

However, I would appreciate it if we could limit the discussion to these issues, and not have it become a forum for either pro-solo or anti-solo rants. Let's presume, for the sake of argument, that we have legitimate divers who are trying to be responsible within a solo context.

_______


I'll go ahead and kick off the discussion with the observation that, while the SDI Solo course - and I presume others as well - do not distinguish between different "kinds" of solo dives and solo divers, nevertheless it seems useful to delineate a few categories:


Purely solo dives, where the diver is the only one in the water within any reasonable distance and unlikely to come in any contact with other divers while underwater. I suggest we refer to these simply as Solo Divers.


Situationally solo dives, where the diver intends to remain self-sufficiently solo regardless of the presence or absence of other divers; that is, the dive is buddyless by design, but the diver is aware that they may run into others underwater. I suggest we refer to these divers as Self-Sufficient Divers.


Accidentally solo dives, where the diver intends to buddy-dive but somehow becomes separated from the buddy. I won't say what I suggest we call these divers. :devious:


It occurs to me that there may be a special sub-category of self-sufficient divers who might be termed "same ocean, same day" or SOSD Divers, where perhaps the boat has teamed up some individual divers as "instabuddies", but who have no real intention of buddy diving. I'm sure those will come up in this discussion as well.

For the purposes of this conversation, let's leave out the last category of "accidentally solo" divers; that's a well-known and well-discussed separate issue.

It's that middle category where the bulk of the questions lay. No doubt, a solo diver should have sufficient knowledge and understanding to be just that: purely solo. Nevertheless, I think it's very common for those divers to simply plan to be self-sufficient divers without a buddy, or SOSD divers if "forced" to buddy up. In fact, I think a large part of the appeal of the Solo certification courses from SDI and others is for divers like some bug hunters, spearos, and photographers, who would prefer to focus only on themselves and their hobby while diving and thus desire a level of self-sufficiency.

So, what do you think? Are these categories fair? Just what kinds of obligations towards others do these divers have? What other questions arise? Should SDI and other agencies certifying these kinds of divers change their curriculum to cover these situations?

[TSandM]

Obligation? How are you defining it? Moral obligation? Legal obligation?

A solo diver ought to be carrying enough gas to get him to the surface in the event of a failure of his primary supply (at least I think he should). Assuming that is true, how would one justify refusing to share that supply with another diver who is out of air? I don't know how I could live with myself, if someone came to me in distress and I pushed them away because I wanted my gas for ME. (If I don't have enough for both of us, that's different, but then, shame on me.) Maybe it's the part of my personality that made me become a physician, but I feel we have a moral obligation to try to help, so long as the risk to self of doing so is acceptable -- and each person has to define that point for himself.

[FritzCat66]

Personally, I presume a certain level of moral obligation to assist others in dire need, at least as far as our own capacity for doing so. Therefore, I don't think the question is so much whether any diver, solo or otherwise, should or would share resources for an ailing diver. Although perhaps some would like to discuss that as well. But there's a big difference between being a planned buddy and incidentally providing aid.

As in the example of that other thread, where a buddyless diver does indeed try and help another, it seems the debate comes more along the lines of planning. I presume a responsible buddy diver plans on carrying sufficient gas to assist their buddy. Should someone who plans to dive sans buddy make similar reservations?

[FishDiver]

IMO, and in the context of this thread, there are two "kinds" of dives. Solo dives and Team/Buddy dives. Solo divers are obligated to plan air only for themselves. Solo divers, like any other divers, are obligated to share air with anyone that needs it in an emergency. It's the same question as asking if you are obligated to share air with a diver that isn't part of your team.

[awap]

First, accidental solo and SOSD are not what I consider solo divers.

Until another problem occurs, a solo diver should always have enough gas to get two divers with compatible SAC rates safely to the surface. That is because his redundant source is not to be used until a problem occurs. Should I encounter an LOA/OOA diver during my solo dive, I will take whatever actions I can safely take to assist. It is little different than encountering someone in an emergency situation anywhere on land or water. I guess I see it as a moral obligation to render aid when possible.

When I plan to dive solo, I do not plan any gas for another diver. Rather I plan my redundant gas supply. I have dove solo in Cozumel where I was a solo diver with a group of other, mostly buddied divers, and where I was solo but likely to encounter other divers at the very start and end of the dive; and where I was almost surely the only diver in the water on the entire island at the time (1 am shore dive). My gas planning for all three categories was basically the same - my primary gas supply and my redundant supply (often the surface for shallow dives).

[NWGratefulDiver]

When I solo dive I didn't make an obligation to someone else ... therefore I don't own that obligation. However, I DO take adequate redundant reserves to get me to the surface safely in the event that for some reason my primary gas supply becomes unusable.

I do NOT plan reserves for two. However, in the event that another diver should swim up to me and signal OOA, I WILL supply that diver with my reserve gas ... at which point we begin our ascent.

In the strictest sense, you cannot PLAN reserves for a second diver if you don't know who that diver will be ... since you have no idea what their gas consumption might be. I've seen divers with a consumption rate three or four times higher than mine.

Bottom line ... I'm happy to help, but I'm not OBLIGATED to plan my dive on the assumption that I should have to ... if I wanted that kind of obligation, I'd have asked you to dive with me in the first place ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[fisheater]

Obligation? How are you defining it? Moral obligation?
As is to be expected, Lynn hit it square on. Moral or legal obligation?

As long as the solo diver did nothing to cause the diver in distress to rely upon the solo diver and did nothing to add to or cause the distress, the solo diver has no legal obligation (under standard U.S. law) to assist.. An out of air diver could signal his need for air and the solo diver would be within his legal rights to turn and swim away.

However, that solo diver should be shunned by the rest of the human race for all time. But that's just my opinion.

[copter53]

I do most of my dives with my brother-in-law who got certified with me. We have a mutual understanding underwater and we both look out for each other. We check our own air first then check each others. Yet, don't rely on each other to much and both of us have solo dove before to develop some self-sufficiency. If we are buddy diving and one of us gets separated we are both comfortable enough to finish the dive without going crazy and looking for each other the whole time. I would die for him if the situation arose.

On the other hand, I dove with a guy once who seemed to think that the air in his tank was limitless. Since that is clearly not correct he showed me his air gauge when we were at 60ft and it said 0. Did I share, Yes, I did. Did I have an obligation? No. If a diver chooses to be a stupid diver and neglects himself he is putting you at risk. I have dove with him after that but before we enter the water I tell him & others. I'm doing my own thing, you can follow me or you can go your own way. I'm not going to risk my life for anyone who thinks they are to badass to check their own air.

You don't have an obligation to save anyone. That person has an obligation to dive within their limits and training. That person has an obligation to other divers to stay safe and not put them at risk.

[FritzCat66]

In the strictest sense, you cannot PLAN reserves for a second diver if you don't know who that diver will be ... since you have no idea what their gas consumption might be.

I was thinking that same thing. In Beiji's' original thread about assisting an OOA diver with a pony, some complained that a 13cf is barely enough gas to get a diver up from 100' or more, much less two divers. But then another diver chimed in that she just sips air, to the extent of doing long 100' dives on an aluminum 63cf, so for her a 13cf pony is PLENTY of gas. I've met some real air-sippers like that.

Now, I'm kind of middle-of-the-road in terms of gas consumption, but if I were the OOA diver she found herself trying to assist, I might suck all her reserves dry even if she had been diving strict rule-of-thirds for herself, even exclusive of the pony. So, is she being an irresponsible diver for not carrying enough gas even if she planned the dive as a buddyless, self-sufficient diver? I strongly question any context where that answer would be affirmative.

[bleeb]

In the original thread, part of the rescuer's decision making process had to have been influenced by him being an experienced diver with low gas consumption near the end of his dive approaching minimum reserves, while the rescuee may have appeared to be a relatively new diver with high gas consumption, near panic which would have increased gas consumption even more. There was uncertainty as to whether the already-panicked inexperienced diver might have to go through one or two more OOG incidents on the way back up, and uncertainty for the rescuer as to coping with the resulting panic if it happened. I'm curious as to how people would handle the situation, and how it might affect how they manage the extra risk they may be incurring.

For the sake of discussion, to throw in an additional twist, around here there are a lot of cold deep wrecks, with both a lot of experienced deco-trained technical divers choosing to dive them as deco dives, and also a fair number of relatively inexperienced divers on the same sites diving NDL. Ms Deco-Diver (and team) with a significant deco obligation is probably quite capable of donating gas (both in reserves available and skills), but would be quite unhappy to be dragged to the surface by a low-skilled panicked unknown. What factors go into someone deciding someone else's emergency may exceed their skill or risk tolerance?

[fresh_fish]

The point has already been made as to whether there is a moral obligation to do SOMETHING about the diver in distress. The only grey area I see is if the solo diver is near the end of his dive, and does not have sufficient gas to get himself and another diver safely to the surface. Yes, understandably, this is a situation of poor planning, as the solo diver should have redundancy and not be pushing his limits. But IF the situation occurs, the solo diver would have every right to give the OOA diver a puff of air, give his BC a little inflate and send him on his way, leaving the last of his air for himself to make a safe ascent.

If the solo diver is low but still has redundancy, he should offer the redundancy, but keep that diver close during ascent, in case he needs to partake. Is he required? no. I would say this would be a 50/50 whether or not someone would do this or just signal that they themselves are LOA and refuse. It is totally appropriate either way.

[reefduffer]

TSandM and the others with similar views effectively express mine. I'm jumping in just to say that the golden rule works pretty well to sort out the nuances, as it often does, and it hadn't been mentioned. I'm not coming at it from a religious point of view, just an ethical one.

A solo diver planning gas to assist an OOA diver they might encounter is probably motivated by something else. A solo diver encountering an OOA diver would find the GR an excellent framework for decision making.

[Charlie99]

The Golden Rule and the moral obligation to assist while incurring a reasonable risk pretty well cover the situation.

What is reasonable risk will vary from diver to diver and upon the situation.

The only thing that I can add to this discussion is that decompression obligations are far, far more fuzzy and probabalistic than most divers assume. For many years a 60fpm pop direct to the surface after a 40 minute dive at 80' was considered the norm. Today that dive would be considered as having several minutes of decompression obligation.

Knowing the above, I am probably more willing than most divers to cut my own ascent short to assist a diver.

[fire_diver]

I thought this had just been beaten to death in the last thread.

[FritzCat66]

Yeah, but it was mixed in with lots of other contexts; I thought it would be worthwhile separating out. Also, I think the issue there was confused by fuzzy terminology regarding what does and doesn't qualify as a "solo dive", something I've tried to clarify by drawing some distinctions in the first post here.

[seaducer]

I think all human beings have an obligation to one another to render any aid they can under emergency conditions.

I think solo divers count in this as well. I do not however think they should be required to plan their dives for that possibility. They should assist if they can when the need arises, but shouldn't be forced or feel obligated to change their plan in case someone else happens to be there and need help.

I also think a great many human beings will disagree with me on point 1...hence the need for a military...

[NWGratefulDiver]

I don't think any solo diver would hesitate to render assistance when needed. But I think the notion of an "obligation" to other divers is the antithesis of why most people choose to solo dive ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Sas]

What are the obligations - if any - a solo diver has towards other divers who happen to be in the water?

I solo dive and would consider that I have no obligation to any other diver when I am solo diving. That being said if I saw someone in trouble I would do my best to help them.



Should a solo diver reserve gas or other resources for another OOA or troubled diver? Why or why not?

No, I do not do this. If helping someone meant that I would not have enough air to help someone I ran into in trouble, then I would not air share. If I did have enough air then I would definitely help them out.

[divermike1011]

I don't plan gas consumption on solo dives around anyone but myself. I certainly would help another diver in distress if I came across one while solo diving, I often dive in areas where multiple people are diving, I just happen to not have a buddy because it's a good break from herding cats... err... helping with OW classes, I mean. :D

I also wouldn't hesitate to help another shop's clients/students if I saw them in trouble and was closer or aware before their own dive guide. I agree with most everyone that even if the legal obligation isn't there, the moral one is.

Michael

[waterpirate]

I would make the distinction that since people are drawn to the solo cert, and operators are accepting it, that it sets up another scenario. The diver that goes into the water solo, but is likely to encounter another diver, or team. That sets up a condition that a solo diver could be approached by some one else and need assistance.
There is no obligation, there never was. I simply do it as a choice, call me a nice guy or someone who cares. It really did not need to be disscussed again? Just know that if I am on a dive site and you see me solo and need help, I will be glad to give you the long hose off my honking big doubles and your life just got a lot better.
Eric

[dumpsterDiver]

I think it is an interesting question. As someone else said, a responsible solo diver should always have at his disposal 2 (two) independent sources of gas, each of which is sufficient to get them to the surface alone.

I think it is reasonable to ASSUME that for recreational no-deco diving, that if a person picked a pony bottle that was large enough to get themselves to the surface AND to do a good safety stop, then it is reasonable to assume that this is pretty close to enough gas to get a panicked diver to the surface WITHOUT any stops. Obviously this is a generality (and might not apply to an idiot who uses a 6 cu-ft bottle in 120 feet).

Rather than a moral obligation to the other diver, people should look at it from the perspective of their own personal safety. If there is a possibility that another diver mugs you for your air, it is quite likley that you (especially if you are a female or small) may be unable to "decline". So if there is any possiblity that another diver might need (demand) your assistance, it is in your own best interest to plan to keep enough air in the main tank as a reserve to get them to the surface. I follow this idea with my own diving.

If I know I am absolutely alone, then I will run my main tank down much further than if I know I am diving solo with somebody who may or may not stay with me during the dive.

I'm repeating myself, but my instructor taught us that the most dangerous thing in the sea is "a buddy".

[NWGratefulDiver]

I'm repeating myself, but my instructor taught us that the most dangerous thing in the sea is "a buddy".


On the other hand, when I was taking my instructor training, one of my CD's told me that the most dangerous thing in the sea was an OW student. He advised me to "Always behave as though you are in the water with a bunch of people who are actively trying to kill you."

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far ... but OW students can do some amazingly unpredictable things sometimes ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Dr Wu]

A solo diver is under no obligation to plan their dive or equip themselves for anyone but themselves.

As far as lending assistance goes I would doubt I would refuse to help someone in need as long as it did not compromise my safety.

But I probably would not blow off any significant deco or make an unsafe ascent.

[dumpsterDiver]

On the other hand, when I was taking my instructor training, one of my CD's told me that the most dangerous thing in the sea was an OW student. He advised me to "Always behave as though you are in the water with a bunch of people who are actively trying to kill you."

I'm not sure I'd go quite that far ... but OW students can do some amazingly unpredictable things sometimes ... :shocked2:

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

:rofl3::rofl3::rofl3: I stopped teaching when I saw too many students that seemed intent on killing themselves. I got a knife, I really wasn't that worried about my own safety..

[kanonfodr]

Since every time I have gone solo there has always been other divers in the area, I have always planned my gas in such a way that I could make a safe ascent to the surface while sharing gas. Generally I plan this gas out of my backgas but I would have no reservations about switching to my redundant gas source since A) I put the cheap stuff in it, and dive within that gas's limits, as well as B) bring a large enough source of redundant gas to preclude reservations about switching to it (in my case, a 40 cu ft Aluminum tank that is stage-rigged).

I personally don't feel a need to short-change myself or another with spare gas since I have a variety of tanks available to me (AL80s, an AL40, a HP120, and doubled HP100s) so I plan my tanks accordingly. For most dives I pursue 75-100 cu ft is plenty of gas, but if I need more I bring more. Of course right now my breathing gases are either Air or Nitrox 32, neither of which I deem costly when compared to Trimix so if I don't feel like heaving the doubles then I will bring my HP120 (which is about the right enough gas to hit the NDLs on Nitrox 32 and still reserve plenty of Rock Bottom in the 80-100ft range).

IMO, solo diving is an integrity check. You need to fully plan your dive, including gas needed, then dive your plan. And I thus plan for ascending from the deepest part of the dive while sharing gas with someone so I reserve that gas for that scenario, whether it happens or not. Gas is cheap, considering what divers spend on training, gear, dive trips, etc. Why not bring enough to share with someone else, especially when the possibilities of that occuring rise due to the presence of other divers in the vicinity?

Peace,
Greg

[FritzCat66]

As far as air sharing goes, of course it makes more difference towards the end of the dive - when folks are likely to be lower on gas - than the beginning.

I tend to be around other divers more at the beginning of the dive, at least on a typical Florida drift reef, because of course we all leave the boat at once. But then I hang back and let the crowd move on down, that way some of the reef life comes back out after they've passed and I can concentrate on photos or simply enjoying the reef without the others around.

However, it isn't uncommon for some of the east coast boats to put the hunters & spearos in first on the same or a parallel ledge, then move on down and drop the rec divers. So more than once I have found myself at the end of the dive surrounded by hunters! Maybe they're not finding much quarry and have been rushing down the reef, or maybe they hopped over from a parallel ledge, but in any case I'm often surprised to see them and they seem rather surprised to see me. :amazed:

My guess is, if an air-sharing scenario happened to me, it would be on one of those occasions. Luckily lots of hunters seem to be carrying ponies these days. Then again, some of them seem to use the pony kind of like the old-timers used a J-valve: that is, dive until the primary cylinder is drained, then switch to pony and ascend. :doh:

[TSandM]

You know, you who say that you feel no obligation and would not share if you had concerns about the adequacy of the gas . . . Have you thought about how you would feel if the person you pushed away were to die? Death is an amazingly final thing -- there is no appeal from it. I suspect I would put myself at considerable personal risk to avoid feeling even partially responsible for the death of someone else.

[Sas]

You know, you who say that you feel no obligation and would not share if you had concerns about the adequacy of the gas . . . Have you thought about how you would feel if the person you pushed away were to die? Death is an amazingly final thing -- there is no appeal from it. I suspect I would put myself at considerable personal risk to avoid feeling even partially responsible for the death of someone else.

I would feel awful. But then feeling awful is better than being dead, especially when it would involve two fatalities rather than just one.

[TMHeimer]

Interesting reading. I agree with most, especially TS&M and NWGrateful. Morally, the answer is obvious. You plan only for yourself and help someone else always (unless it's to be fatal to yourself). Legally is a whole other kettle of worms. This has been discussed a lot regarding other scenarios (DM's prof. liability if not working, buddys' legal obligations to each other, etc. No real clear answers as each case is different.

[TSandM]

I would feel awful. But then feeling awful is better than being dead, especially when it would involve two fatalities rather than just one.

That's why, were I to do some solo dives, I would carry enough reserve gas to be able to donate to someone else. Reserve gas for me, at my consumption rate, would be enough to allow someone else to contemplate his mortality :D

[Sas]

That's why, were I to do some solo dives, I would carry enough reserve gas to be able to donate to someone else. Reserve gas for me, at my consumption rate, would be enough to allow someone else to contemplate his mortality :D

Fair enough. The chances of me meeting someone on a solo dive where I would not be able to get them to the surface on my own reserve are miniscule so I don't bother to keep extra. Something to consider more if I was on a tropics holiday I guess.

[Zieg]

I have a few questions about this scenario.... Where the hell is this person's buddy since they are not diving solo? If I'm so close as be able to lend assistance, then am I really solo?

Will I plan my gas for such a scenario? No. If I am diving solo, it's because I don't want to be around any people; so more than likely I won't be anywhere near this person, or at least not any closer than their buddy probably. So if they let themselves get soooooo far away from their buddy that the team is non-existent then wouldn't I be doing the human gene pool a service by not noticing their distress?

Now I'm not a total ass, that's total, okay? If I did see someone is trouble, I would help. I would not just sit there and watch them die. I would probably even risk my own life to get them safely back. But then I would have a great time chewing them, and their buddy, a new butt for messing up my dive. Of course I would at least insist on a bottle of quality rum for my services. At the VERY least.

[seaducer]

I have a few questions about this scenario.... Where the hell is this person's buddy since they are not diving solo? If I'm so close as be able to lend assistance, then am I really solo?


My last trip to Bonaire I did the whole thing solo. There were several dives where I got in alone, but ran into a group coming back the other way. A few where the group caught and past me. At times on my dives I was within 10 feet of other divers, and it is possible if one had an emergency at that point I might be the closest to them.

There was one group I saw at more than one site. According to my wife who was snorkeling near the truck, they always got in after I went down, and were gone before I got back, sometimes by 15 minutes, which always made her nervous. UW I noticed that one diver was consistently struggling to keep up with the other 3, who were burning through their gas like my old F250 in 4x4.

I thought about hijacking the straggler the third time I ran into them to A) give her a breather and B) see how long the rest of her "team" took to notice.

My point, since I think I buried it there somewhere, is that I have been solo but run into other divers at depth, and I am not talking we all jumped off the same boat and I split from the rest. Could happen, I think odds are against, but it bears thinking about.

[gypsyjim]

I am of the school of thought that if I am able to assist another person in danger, without extreme risk to myself, I should do so.

Obliged? Would not even be part of the thought process.

[Bob DBF]

On solo deep(er) dives I carry a pony as a back up only so it would be no problem to deploy the pony and end the dive assisting another diver.

When diving solo without the pony, I reserve more gas in my tank for issues until I head for the surface or am seriously shallow. Unless I am having problems myself, assisting another diver would be an inconvenience not a problem.

I have done most of my diving ascending at 60fpm with no safety stop so doing that in an emergency is not a problem for me. Also I believe it is extremely important to have gas in the tank to inflate the BC on the surface. No sense getting to the surface and loosing them in a Fuster Cluck on the surface. I know I can manually inflate my BC on the surface in an emergency but I can't do it with someone trying to climb on my head.


Bob
----------------------------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

"the future is uncertain and the end is always near"
Jim Morrison

[awap]

I would feel awful. But then feeling awful is better than being dead, especially when it would involve two fatalities rather than just one.

Are you really sure of that? I'm not.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I have a few questions about this scenario.... Where the hell is this person's buddy since they are not diving solo? If I'm so close as be able to lend assistance, then am I really solo?

Will I plan my gas for such a scenario? No. If I am diving solo, it's because I don't want to be around any people; so more than likely I won't be anywhere near this person, or at least not any closer than their buddy probably. So if they let themselves get soooooo far away from their buddy that the team is non-existent then wouldn't I be doing the human gene pool a service by not noticing their distress?

Now I'm not a total ass, that's total, okay? If I did see someone is trouble, I would help. I would not just sit there and watch them die. I would probably even risk my own life to get them safely back. But then I would have a great time chewing them, and their buddy, a new butt for messing up my dive. Of course I would at least insist on a bottle of quality rum for my services. At the VERY least.

I'll give you a couple of examples of things that I've experienced that might put some context around your questions. Neither of these were solo dives ... but they were situations where someone else's buddy needed help and their buddy wasn't wasn't there to help them.

The first was at our local mudhole ... a place I've done hundreds of dives. There's a rope going along the bottom from one cove, around a fishing pier, and up to an adjacent cove. This rope marks what we call "the forbidden zone" ... a no-dive area surrounding an active fishing pier and water taxi dock. Along the front part of the dock the depth exceeds 100 feet for probably 100 yards or so. The boundary rope is commonly used as a guideline for divers to follow (because there's lots of cool stuff within easy distance from the rope). My buddy and I were starting down the rope, and at about 70 feet we encounter a lone diver, swimming back up from the depths. When the diver saw our lights, she approached us holding her console out in front of her (always a bad sign). A quick look at her gauge showed she had about 300 psi remaining in her cylinder. I put her on my tank and we accompanied her back upslope to the beach. When we were able to stand up, I took my regulator back and asked her if she was OK, and where was her dive buddy? She said they were trying to do the loop, and she realized she wasn't going to make it and turned back. Her buddy (her boyfriend) kept going. We got her out of the water and up to the sea wall where she got out of her gear. At that point, her boyfriend ... who had continued to the next cove ... approached and asked "where'd you go?"

I truly wanted to smack him ... :shakehead:

Second incident ... on a boat dive. We're doing a dive site called "China Wall" ... a place where you follow a buoy line down to about 70 feet at the top of an L-shaped wall. My buddy and I are about 9 minutes into our dive when a fellow who was on our boat ... but with another buddy ... swims up to me, taps his gauge, and indicates that he has 500 psi left. I gave him the signal for "where's your buddy", and he returned a :dontknow: I put him on my reg and we headed back for the buoy line There were some additional complications with that ascent ... but those are not relevent to this particular discussion.

Both of these situations were a breakdown in the buddy system. In at least the latter situation, SDI solo diver training wouldn't have helped ... the guy already owned that card ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Darnold9999]

At every point in a solo dive I have at least twice as much air as I need to get me to the surface. My main tank is going to have enough air to get me to the surface with a full safety stop with an appropriate reserve for contingencies. I am also going to have a pony with just enough gas to get me to the surface from the deepest point in the dive.

Somone comes up to me OOA I will always have enough to get both of us up to the surface - but we may be skipping the safety stop depending on how fast they go through air. So am I planning to have enough air fdor a buddy - no. Will I have enough - yes, but we might be risking DCS. However I have done enough dives at 60 fpm ascents and no safety stops to be pretty comfortable with that kind of ascent in an emergency.

The only issue here is what happens if something else goes wrong. To me if that happens then I am going to make it to the surface on the very edge of what I consider safe for me - helping you as much as is possible.

I am not planning for another diver, but so what, I have enough air for two in an emergency so I will share.

[drbill]

I feel no obligation towards other divers and do not plan for them... just for me. However, I would offer assistance to any diver who appeared to need it (and have). Most of the time the assistance has been required by divers whose buddies had separated from them (or vice versa). I dive with a 19 cf pony that I use only in emergencies, and plan my dives based on my intended profiles (if known ahead of times) so I carry enough gas to assist either myself or another diver.

[lowviz]

You know, you who say that you feel no obligation and would not share if you had concerns about the adequacy of the gas . . . Have you thought about how you would feel if the person you pushed away were to die? Death is an amazingly final thing -- there is no appeal from it. I suspect I would put myself at considerable personal risk to avoid feeling even partially responsible for the death of someone else.

There is a fine point in there that I’ve been struggling with. Maybe it is the “even partially responsible” part. Once you intend to take that much ownership of someone else’s safety, don’t you become a “superbuddy” whose job it now is to be aware of the condition of all other “endangered” divers in your area?

Long part:
Solo is a mindset that (I believe) is firmly rooted in self survival. I dive in the company of NE Atlantic hunters and wreck divers. Many years of watching the deep offshore elite has taken its toll on me. I am slowly coming to honestly believe that my inshore skills that have developed under the pressures of local diving conditions (deco at recreational depths) will better serve to keep me whole than trying to break in a new buddy (moved away) or me learning how to dive as a team when very few around me actually practice this style. “Team” <just give me this one> being among other things, a non-troll intro to “rockbottom”.

Now and again, I see posts that seem to imply that rockbottom is a cushy pad that will keep a diver and his buddy from all evil. I’m all about rockbottom, but they should do the math and note the name. Rockbottom for anything under 10 min of deco is not a lot of gas. Rockbottom is exactly that, toes are already curled over the precipice. IMHO, it alone isn’t good enough for solo. My “solo rockbottom” is enough back-gas for the USN 10 minute omitted stop procedure plus the NDL direct ascent rockbottom calc itself (not halves or thirds plus rockbottom) plus 30cuft for inshore diving. For my double 100’s, thirty cuft [(30 * 3442)/200] is a convenient 500psi. At a stressed cold-water RMV of 0.75, the IWR procedure is also about 30 cuft or another 500psi. Stage bottles or ponys are a big bonus if I need them, but they never figure into back-gas reserve. For anything other than long and shallow dives, I’m leaving the bottom with a little over 1000 psi and very clear ideas about how I could spend that remaining gas. So yes, I seem to be planning for another diver. But:

Just cut to the chase:
2. Should a solo diver reserve gas or other resources for another OOA or troubled diver? Why or why not?

NO! That’s the whole point of diving “solo”, I’m not diving “rescue diver”. Once I start planning for an imaginary buddy, there are many other things to consider – most notably awareness. True, I’ve accounted for the potential threat of a needy diver with a tad extra gas, but only as it may well help protect my physical and mental health. A diver is either a good buddy, and I mean all the way with no reservations, or he is dangerously fooling two people.

All this being said, if anyone does become the needy diver, please stop by.

Don’t expect superior service without a reservation, but I’ll do my best to accommodate [-]you[/-] us.

[String]

What are the obligations - if any - a solo diver has towards other divers who happen to be in the water?

Legally none. Morally? Depends if they think they can help or not




Should a solo diver reserve gas or other resources for another OOA or troubled diver? Why or why not?

No. Why should they? Underwater everyone is utterly responsible for their own safety regardless of solo or not.
They choose not to dive with anyone to avoid having to babysit others.

[Ana]

In a way this thread accentuates the great difference between divers.

Unless I'm on a work trip and I just dive with whatever charter can fit me in, my typical dives are from my boat or 1 or 2 local charters that know me.
Diving with the local charters I go solo unless my husband is with me, during the dive I will make a point to stay away from any other divers of the charter, if I see anyone getting close I change directions or speed up or whatever in order to avoid them. I don't like strangers in my dives, don't wish anyone harm I just like my space.
Even diving with my husband or the few friends I have, I'm not a buddy. I'm just not, of course if I see them in trouble I will help, but chances are I won't see them, because I don't look.
Diving off our boat it is impossible to run into another diver, we make a point to not jump in if there are any other divers in the area.

So now I read of solo divers than encounter others with some sort of frequency. To a point that planing for a possible encounter is an actual consideration... to me is just unfathomable.

In all my years diving I have never given any of my air to anyone, I have untangled monofilament from many sea creatures but don't recall ever helping any diver, I can not predict for sure what would I do if a situation presents itself, but I'm certainly don't care to prepare for the possibility of a stranger interrupting my dive

[lowviz]

.......encounter others with some sort of frequency. ..................

Not at all! The question is IF.

Oh my God.

I find myself agreeing with Ana.