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Dmaricle
April 13th, 2011, 09:18 PM
ok i do most of my diving with regular scuba gear, but we are looking to do more diving in some of the shallower parts of toledo bend. so we are condsidering building a nive hookah system. i have been researching this for some time and im sure someone on here has done it before i just cant seem to find it. but basically im gonna use a 5-6 horse gas engine, a oilless compressor pump, and prob a 5-6 gallon tank. the intake for the compressor will rise prob 5 feet above the engine and have a filter on it to prevent any dust or toxic gases from entering the tank.

i am planning on setting this up for 3 divers at no deeper than 40-50 feet. the only part i am not sure of is the hoses. i read mixed reviews everywhere i look some say use only food grade and some say id doesnt matter. i am trying not to go to crazy price wise on this.

oh i also wanted to make this thread prob a month before i start the project to discuss it more with everyone and see if i am confussed on anything i want to do this rite the first time. thanks and please feel free to voice your thoughts or concerns.

Dylan Maricle

lionfish-eater
April 14th, 2011, 11:01 AM
It all may work fine, but you are assuming all liability. It may even work better than a manufactured unit, but you are assuming all liability. If someone even just has a headache they will question the equipment. Will there be someone on the surface to monitor it? You could also manifold 8-12 tanks on a floating pontoon/dive float.

DennisS
April 14th, 2011, 11:56 AM
Check out Keene Engineering for anything you might need

Diving Equipment: Keene Engineering Online (http://www.keeneeng.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=DE)

Dmaricle
April 14th, 2011, 09:35 PM
It all may work fine, but you are assuming all liability. It may even work better than a manufactured unit, but you are assuming all liability. If someone even just has a headache they will question the equipment. Will there be someone on the surface to monitor it? You could also manifold 8-12 tanks on a floating pontoon/dive float.

i will def assume all liability, and there will be someone with the motor at all times. also i will add storage tanks large enough to give me a few min of air in case the engine fails.

Check out Keene Engineering for anything you might need

Diving Equipment: Keene Engineering Online (http://www.keeneeng.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=DE)

thanks for the link i will check them out

Brendon
April 14th, 2011, 10:10 PM
I have built several compressors from various components... You can build a safe, reliable gas operated compressor pump for 650.00.

1) compressor, Gast PCA-10, order from AOP technologies.

2) Engine 3.5hp el-cheapo from harbor freight.

3) LP Hookah Regulators adjusted to run at 90psi.

4) a whole bunch of small parts that I have on a list somewhere... example.. You will need, compression/02 fittings, 3/8 diver hose, 1"hose for snorkel, check valve, manifold with regulator, proper pulley size for correct rpm, check valve, heater hose, volume tank or bladder, a thick plate to mount all this on and something to float it.

That should get your started,if your really serious I can look for the parts list.. You will need to be pretty crafty and knowledgeable to put this together correctly. Its fun to do if your into that kind of thing... You will spend several hours if not a few days the first time you do this. You might think about just buying one if you cant commit to the time and frustration. Not to mention you will need to test this... Several times before using it.

Dmaricle
April 15th, 2011, 10:35 PM
I have built several compressors from various components... You can build a safe, reliable gas operated compressor pump for 650.00.

1) compressor, Gast PCA-10, order from AOP technologies.

2) Engine 3.5hp el-cheapo from harbor freight.

3) LP Hookah Regulators adjusted to run at 90psi.

4) a whole bunch of small parts that I have on a list somewhere... example.. You will need, compression/02 fittings, 3/8 diver hose, 1"hose for snorkel, check valve, manifold with regulator, proper pulley size for correct rpm, check valve, heater hose, volume tank or bladder, a thick plate to mount all this on and something to float it.

That should get your started,if your really serious I can look for the parts list.. You will need to be pretty crafty and knowledgeable to put this together correctly. Its fun to do if your into that kind of thing... You will spend several hours if not a few days the first time you do this. You might think about just buying one if you cant commit to the time and frustration. Not to mention you will need to test this... Several times before using it.

i am very interested in this set up. do you have a link to compressor you speak of? i cant seem to find it. thanks

Brendon
April 17th, 2011, 09:32 AM
i am very interested in this set up. do you have a link to compressor you speak of? i cant seem to find it. thanks

You will need to find a distributor. You could also order alot of this stuff from
Hookah Air Compressors (http://www.akmining.com/cart/hookah_air_compressors.htm) , however the compressor they sell is over priced.

fstbttms
April 18th, 2011, 01:53 AM
the only part i am not sure of is the hoses. i read mixed reviews everywhere i look some say use only food grade and some say id doesnt matter.
You aren't looking for "food grade" air hose, you want Grade-E breathing hose. Anybody who says you don't need it is an idiot.

Google Gates and Synflex, they are the major brands.

Rich Keller
April 22nd, 2011, 07:17 AM
I do not know what "food grade" hose is, maybe someone could explain it to me. I used a new oxygen hose from a cutting torch. It is made from the same tuber as Gates 33HB divers hose used in commercial umbilicals. It was meant for use on construction sites so it will stand up to more abuse then what I am imagining a food grade hose would. It is however much smaller so it will not stand up to the same abuse a real dive hose would but for open water it works fine. I use my 50' hose attached to a scuba tank in a sit on top kayak when I am diving for scallops, oysters and lobster. This is good enough for dives to about 30' or less.

HowardE
April 22nd, 2011, 07:52 AM
You aren't looking for "food grade" air hose, you want Grade-E breathing hose. Anybody who says you don't need it is an idiot.

Google Gates and Synflex, they are the major brands.

I guess I'm just an idiot.

Do you know what food grade means?

Grade E describes the breathing gas quality is acceptable by the scuba industry as acceptable to put into tanks. I somehow doubt that all commercial guys are breathing grade E gas out of their LP compressor or hookah rig?

The most commonly used hose for commercial rigs is Gates 33HB. However. Food Grade products are safe for air, just not necessarily compatible with oxygen or helium use (but that's a separate rating). For a hookah system to 30' - what is the problem with food grade (able to be used for food and beverage service).

You seem to be on a lone crusade against food grade for hose use on this and on other forums?

fstbttms
April 22nd, 2011, 09:03 AM
I guess I'm just an idiot.

Do you know what food grade means?

Grade E describes the breathing gas quality is acceptable by the scuba industry as acceptable to put into tanks. I somehow doubt that all commercial guys are breathing grade E gas out of their LP compressor or hookah rig?

The most commonly used hose for commercial rigs is Gates 33HB. However. Food Grade products are safe for air, just not necessarily compatible with oxygen or helium use (but that's a separate rating). For a hookah system to 30' - what is the problem with food grade (able to be used for food and beverage service).

You seem to be on a lone crusade against food grade for hose use on this and on other forums?
I am not on a "crusade" against what you call "food grade" hose. I am trying to point out that the military and commercial industry standard for breathing hose is Grade-E. But maybe you are correct and "Grade-E" refers to the quality of the air provided by the hose, not the hose itself. I'm not sure. But I am sure that your hose should meet MIL-H-2815G Section 3.12.2. Use anything else at your own risk.

HowardE
April 22nd, 2011, 09:47 AM
I am not on a "crusade" against what you call "food grade" hose. I am trying to point out that the military and commercial industry standard for breathing hose is Grade-E. But maybe you are correct and "Grade-E" refers to the quality of the air provided by the hose, not the hose itself. I'm not sure. But I am sure that your hose should meet MIL-H-2815G Section 3.12.2. Use anything else at your own risk.

Well... reading your posts here; on other sub-forums on SB, and on other forums all together... it certainly seems like you're extremely passionate about this topic which now you're correcting yourself. Maybe you should consider retracting your previous statement in which you referred to anyone who thought otherwise than you (where you were wrong) as an idiot?

Now I'll ask you this... the Military spec which you're citing ... do you know what THAT means?

While your caution is not a bad thing... It's a little overly conservative for a simple system for shallow depths.


BTW - the hose on our commercial grade divers umbilical line is yellow... and it's not cheap. ;)

fstbttms
April 22nd, 2011, 10:06 AM
Maybe you should consider retracting your previous statement in which you referred to anyone who thought otherwise than you (where you were wrong) as an idiot?
Hey buddy, if the shoe fits...


Now I'll ask you this... the Military spec which you're citing ... do you know what THAT means?
Yes.

The bottom line is (which you know as well as I do, despite your attempt to parse my words) that you should not dive with any hose that is not specifically designed to provide breathing air. Using anything else poses a health risk. That means don't use pneumatic tool hose or welding hose or your grandma's douche bag hose etc., etc.

HowardE
April 22nd, 2011, 10:12 AM
The bottom line is (which you know as well as I do, despite your attempt to parse my words) that you should not dive with any hose that is not specifically designed to provide breathing air. Using anything else poses a health risk. That means don't use pneumatic tool hose or welding hose or your grandma's douche bag hose etc., etc.

I'll ignore your petty, rude, and truly against the TOS of ScubaBoard insults, and skip to the crux of your tirade, which you continue to pursue.

I'd like for you to cite references for your revelations (since apparently, you're the only one who thinks that you need to find air hose specifically approved for breathing air - for shallow diving of air to relatively low pressures, without the introduction of oxygen or other breathing gases to the mixture). Since you're deeming welding hose off limits... let's see some backup to your theory.

I and the other idiots await your enlightened response.

fstbttms
April 22nd, 2011, 10:40 AM
I'll ignore your petty, rude, and truly against the TOS of ScubaBoard insults, and skip to the crux of your tirade, which you continue to pursue.
Jeezus. Why don't you cry about it to the moderators? :shakehead:


I'd like for you to cite references for your revelations (since apparently, you're the only one who thinks that you need to find air hose specifically approved for breathing air - for shallow diving of air to relatively low pressures, without the introduction of oxygen or other breathing gases to the mixture). Since you're deeming welding hose off limits... let's see some backup to your theory.
I and the other idiots await your enlightened response.
Hey, I don't give a crap what you breathe off of.

But let me ask you this- if just any hose is safe to use, why did the government require the mil spec? I'll tell you why; because non-mil spec hoses can off-gas toxins. So again, fee free to justify using hose that isn't designed to provide breathing air to save a couple of bucks (or whatever your rationale is.) They're you're lungs, knock yourself out, chief.

Rich Keller
April 22nd, 2011, 11:06 AM
Howard, This fstbttms guy either sells this type of equipment and your idea is cutting into his profits or already spent way too much for his set up and now wants to not feel like a jerk for doing so. There is no difference between the rubber used in real diving hose and oxygen hose. I would however start with new hose so as not to worry about what may have been passed through it before. I am still not sure what you mean by "food grade hose" but if it is what I think it is you may want to stick with something more durable that also has a higher working pressure.

fstbttms
April 22nd, 2011, 11:21 AM
Howard, This fstbttms guy either sells this type of equipment and your idea is cutting into his profits or already spent way too much for his set up and now wants to not feel like a jerk for doing so.
Yeah, that what it is. I feel stupid for spending too much money on the gear that keeps me alive every day while I'm earning a living. Because the difference between breathing hose and whatever you use is what- a buck a foot? Friggin' ponderous.http://www.fotolode.com/images/fstbttms/Emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Rich Keller
April 22nd, 2011, 12:00 PM
Yeah, that what it is. I feel stupid for spending too much money on the gear that keeps me alive every day while I'm earning a living. Because the difference between breathing hose and whatever you use is what- a buck a foot? Friggin' ponderous.http://www.fotolode.com/images/fstbttms/Emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Thats good! Knowing you have a problem is the first step needed before correcting the problem. Though I would have gone with the word ignorant rather then stupid but you know yourself best so stupid it is. There may be hope for you yet.

orb353
April 22nd, 2011, 05:06 PM
I am doing the same thing, building a third lung. I tell you what I have discovered. The older belt driven compressors are gast and thomas pumps. The gast (the ones that require the 263 rebuilt kit) are high cfm compressors, pumping about 5cfm @ 40psi. You can buy them from Keene engineering
Air Compressor Systems: Keene Engineering Online (http://www.keeneeng.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=ACS)

but they are expensive. It is listed as a pca-10 compressor from GAST. You can pick them up on ebay sometimes. One just sold for 255$. I just bought a gast 1VBF that has an electric motor on it, and I will take the motor off and put a pulley on it, for a gas engine.

Then there are the newer style direct drive wobble piston pumps. Like this one
Super Snorkel (http://www.supersnorkel.com/)
They produce ALOT of cfm's but are really expensive. These use Thomas Industries compressors
just like the ones they Thomas used to sell as contruction compressors.
Thomas Renegade Model TG-400HST Gas Air Compressor - NOT AVAILABLE (http://cfpwarehouse.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/TG400HST.html)
It is the same setup, same rpm's. But those are not available for sale any longer.

Industrial Air Contractor Pontoon Air Compressor with Honda OHC/OHV Engine 4 Gallon, 155 PSI, Model# CTA5090412 | Gas Powered Air Compressors | Northern Tool + Equipment (http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200401869_200401869)

This is the best deal I could find on a construction oilless compressor that could be used. I know somw people will say that you shouldn't use those type, but I have done lots of research....it is all the same stuff.
I only want enough air for 2 people to about 50 ft deep, so I am , for now, just going to use the gast compressor that I have.

Oliver

fstbttms
April 22nd, 2011, 05:24 PM
The entire Thomas Air PAC line (including the model you linked to) had been out of production for over a year while the company relocated its manufacturing facility. But now they are building them again and are currently filling backorders for their big customers. Last I heard was they will be available for individual retail purchase in the fall.

BTW- I have never heard anything good about the Gast compressors. Just sayin'.

HowardE
April 23rd, 2011, 05:21 PM
Howard, This fstbttms guy either sells this type of equipment and your idea is cutting into his profits or already spent way too much for his set up and now wants to not feel like a jerk for doing so. There is no difference between the rubber used in real diving hose and oxygen hose. I would however start with new hose so as not to worry about what may have been passed through it before. I am still not sure what you mean by "food grade hose" but if it is what I think it is you may want to stick with something more durable that also has a higher working pressure.

Food Grade means it's safe to come into contact with food. Like the lubricants you probably use on your helmet's orings on the neck dam or other parts on dive helmets or scuba regulators that are not for oxygen service. (Like Dow Corning 111 Oring Silicone Lubricant is "food grade" approved by the FDA and NSF)

---------------

Just so I'm making my statement clear, and not to sound cavalier about the whole hose issue.

I am not for a moment suggesting that ANY hose will do. The hose required must be properly pressure rated, and have adequate couplings on the ends to handle the pressure. Plastic hose with a low PSI rating and some worm drive clamps to hold the fittings on the end are by no means what I am suggesting. I am just replying to the Grade E hose which is certainly not required by any means. Hose that is approved for coming into contact with humans IS definitely required though.

If we were going to live our lives based on military specifications, I'd have a $1,000,000 toilet in my apartment. Right?

HowardE
April 23rd, 2011, 05:28 PM
Yeah, that what it is. I feel stupid for spending too much money on the gear that keeps me alive every day while I'm earning a living. Because the difference between breathing hose and whatever you use is what- a buck a foot? Friggin' ponderous.http://www.fotolode.com/images/fstbttms/Emoticons/rolleyes.gif

The topic here is how to make a homemade hookah system.

When I dive hardhat, I use a quincy compressor with a large volume tank, a three part umbilical which cost $6 a foot, a Kirby Morgan 37 Dive Helmet, and have a dive supervisor and a tender, and an emergency gas supply... But that's irrelevant to the topic at hand. Isn't it.

The question appears to have been adequately answered, and your opinion is quite clear, and noted.

Brendon
April 25th, 2011, 02:04 PM
The entire Thomas Air PAC line (including the model you linked to) had been out of production for over a year while the company relocated its manufacturing facility. But now they are building them again and are currently filling backorders for their big customers. Last I heard was they will be available for individual retail purchase in the fall.

BTW- I have never heard anything good about the Gast compressors. Just sayin'.

I have a few of these... They work fine... They were not designed to be in the salt water enviroment. The compressor itself works great, but you must have the correct pulley size and motor. If not you will overwork them. To much heat from excessive pumping will wear these compressors out quickly... PCA-10 model most widely used for gold dreding operations. Easy to fix, parts readily available. Proper maintenance must be done and adequate cleaning after use. Not for salt water use... If one wants to use this anywhere near the salt water you might start off with installing an anode to prevent corrosion. Or just buy one designed to do so, like brownie... Although very expensive.

ScubaEngineer
May 13th, 2011, 06:13 PM
I have used el cheapo hose on one of my boat Hull cleaning rigs for Sailboats in San Diego Bay and it works well but your results may vary. Some of the cheaper hoses have stinky plasticizers supposedly, I havnt ran across this but its usually a vinyl-type smell. El Cheapo hose bought at the dive shop Harbor Freight holds up well but if I was using it everyday in commercial work I would go with 33HB or that vinyl dive hose. For fun the Dive shop Harbor Freight also has nice volume tanks for Hookah rigs, these volume tanks are easily converted into Shallow Water diving helmets by cutting off the end and doing shoulder cuttouts, adding weights. These are good for hours of poolbottome fun. The best hookah regulator/mask I believe that exists is the AGA FFM, this mask breaths well with excellant WOB down to 30 PSI over-bottom pressure. USN agrees and uses it for their enclosed space diving system. For vintage fun you cant beat diving with the Jack Browne/Desco mask if you want that 60s Navy Diver experience. Its a free-flow mask so it wastes more air than demand system but its nice to have when you are scrubbing away on the hull !

orb353
June 10th, 2011, 09:12 AM
I spoke with some at thomas the other day. They said they will not build air-pac compressors any longer. They said they still produce the pump for the J sink airline guy, but they are not selling any gasoline powered compressors any longer.

fstbttms
June 10th, 2011, 10:14 AM
I spoke with some at thomas the other day. They said they will not build air-pac compressors any longer. They said they still produce the pump for the J sink airline guy, but they are not selling any gasoline powered compressors any longer.
The Air Pac line includes mostly electric compressors, including the Thomas 1020. Are you saying that none of these compressors will be produced any longer? Also, can you supply the contact info for Thomas that you used to get this info? Thanks.

BRAVOGOLFTANGO
August 23rd, 2012, 09:59 AM
Well color me purple and call me Prince, got my hopes up for nothing, figured a DIY Hookah thread with 3 pages would have some good intel for oiless compressor specs, only to find 3 pages of disgruntled debate.

fstbttms
August 23rd, 2012, 10:45 AM
Well color me purple and call me Prince, got my hopes up for nothing, figured a DIY Hookah thread with 3 pages would have some good intel for oiless compressor specs, only to find 3 pages of disgruntled debate.
Yeah? What is it you wanted to know, chief?

---------- Post Merged at 07:45 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:04 AM ----------


I spoke with some at thomas the other day. They said they will not build air-pac compressors any longer.
BTW- the Thomas 1020 (the favored compressor used in the hull cleaning industry and part of the Air Pac line) is being produced again and is available to the public at new, high price (about $675 last time I checked) through a limited number of distributors. Here is the contact info for the two distributors in California:

Nor Cal Controls
http://norcal4air.com/
NCC4AIR@PACBELL.NET

Chester Paul Co.
http://www.chesterpaul.com/
Rortiz@chesterpaul.com

http://www.fotolode.com/images/fstbttms/Hull-cleaning/compressor.jpg

BRAVOGOLFTANGO
August 23rd, 2012, 11:18 AM
Thanks fst, I was just having a little fun, pretty much doing my own DIY system without the expensive official hookah pumps, and before I make my own thread regarding another hookah, figured I'd do a bit of searching around. With my training I'm well aware of what to use, not use, etc, just looking for part particulars, etc.

fstbttms
August 23rd, 2012, 11:31 AM
Thanks fst, I was just having a little fun, pretty much doing my own DIY system without the expensive official hookah pumps, and before I make my own thread regarding another hookah, figured I'd so a bit of searching around. With my training I'm well aware of what to use, not use, etc, just looking for part particulars, etc.
I've been building my own hookahs for 18 years. If you have any questions, feel free.

BRAVOGOLFTANGO
August 23rd, 2012, 11:55 AM
I've been building my own hookahs for 18 years. If you have any questions, feel free.

That's awesome and I'll take you up on it. I'll make a thread of what I have so far and would love your input, been out of the Navy so long now I've got a lot to catch up on for my knowledge-base lol.

BRAVOGOLFTANGO
August 27th, 2012, 01:33 PM
Update, my DIY Hookah system works like a champ, start to finish two days, all of it was rebuilding some old mid 80s DAcor XLB Pacer 2nd stages, I calculated and figured out a formula for proper length to cut the LP valve spring seat, works great, in fact works identical as the spare XLB reg with a full scuba spring, go figure.

Next project will be a semi-hard hat rig.

Bob3
September 6th, 2013, 01:38 PM
Geeze, at the risk of resurrecting an old post I tripped over while looking for compressor parts, the best place I've found for "hookah" hose is pneumo hose from Divers Supply (http://www.diverssupplyinc.net/browse.cfm/2,486.html) down in Gretna LA


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