O2 Tank in Ottawa [Archive]

DPVDiver

September 21st, 2003, 05:12 PM

Last time I got tanks hydro'd I got em done at Dive Tech in Mallorytown. The cost for Hydro, tumbling and O2 cleaning was comparable to what an Ottawa shop charges for hydro only. Cleaning is extra. For a new bottle and reg try Vital Aire in Ottawa. They are who supplies the dive stores with O2 for nitrox blending. Ask to talk to Lino.

Kevin R

September 21st, 2003, 08:08 PM

I get my argon, helium and O2 from Vitalaire. They will rent you a tank, not sell it to you. Lino has been promoted and is no longer dealing directly with customers. I've also heard that new diving customers looking for O2 and He are having a hard time setting up accounts, but this is third party info.

Kevin

divemed06

September 21st, 2003, 08:45 PM

Kevin Ripley once bubbled...
I get my argon, helium and O2 from Vitalaire. They will rent you a tank, not sell it to you. Lino has been promoted and is no longer dealing directly with customers. I've also heard that new diving customers looking for O2 and He are having a hard time setting up accounts, but this is third party info.

Kevin

Why are they having a hard time?

DPVDiver

September 21st, 2003, 09:03 PM

I think Vitalaire does not want responsibility for someone's basement blending station exploding. About a month ago there was some talk about this. As far as I know they will allow you to purchase O2 and He with proof of gas blending certifiactions. I could be wrong though.

But, if you are just looking for a jumbo D, and a reg like those in a DAN O2 kit I am pretty sure they do sell those. At least the regs if I'm not mistaken. If not find a DAN instructor and purchase it through them.

To answer your price question, you will be hard pressed to get one anywhere for a reasonable price.

pufferfish

September 21st, 2003, 09:09 PM

Because as an individual in Ontario you will likely need a prescription to get a small tank of O2, regulator, and fills from Vital Air.

I am not even sure if you were to purchase the DAN O2 tank and reg where you could get it 'officially and legally' filled in Ontario as an individual. Can anyone comment on this or have they tried getting an O2 tank filled by Vital Air without a script?

I don't think a dive shop is supposed to fill a tank with 100% O2 if someone just walks in, but I am sure this is done all the time and probably should be if it is to be used to treat a potential dive accident victim.

Doppler

September 22nd, 2003, 07:50 AM

pufferfish once bubbled...
Because as an individual in Ontario you will likely need a prescription to get a small tank of O2, regulator, and fills from Vital Air.

I am not even sure if you were to purchase the DAN O2 tank and reg where you could get it 'officially and legally' filled in Ontario as an individual. Can anyone comment on this or have they tried getting an O2 tank filled by Vital Air without a script?

I don't think a dive shop is supposed to fill a tank with 100% O2 if someone just walks in, but I am sure this is done all the time and probably should be if it is to be used to treat a potential dive accident victim.

I have been dealing with Vitalaire for many years, buying both USP Oxygen and Helium (argon and nitrogen too) and have never had any problems at all. When originally setting up my account, I had to show some certification to prove that I knew the difference between a jelly donut and a 8.5 cubic meter cylinder of compressed oxygen... and how to manage the safe transportation of each!

While the records may show that there is a need for a script, have not run into this as a challenge since 1992! The bad ol'days

Doppler

SneakyB'tard

September 22nd, 2003, 08:18 AM

Try Sands Medical in Brockville, they sell O2 bottles and first class regs(dry) as well.

GTADiver

September 22nd, 2003, 08:55 AM

Vital air will sell you the stuff if you are a certified blender as will praxair, BOC and all the other guys. The only problem people will have filling Jumbo D's from the DAN kits are that they have green tops. In Canada and all the rest of the world (excluding our neighbours to the south) oxygen bottles have white tops. Any respectable outfit will suggest the top be painted white prior to filling. Prescriptions are not required even though technically oxygen is a drug. For hydros try Superior Safety on Bently. There is no need to pay the middle man to send it in for you.

Dive shop vs praxair fill of a d-cylinder......... guess which one does the nitrogen purge first, then seals the orifice and then puts the entire cylinder into a sealed plastic bag to prevent contaminants from getting on the valve?

pufferfish

September 22nd, 2003, 09:15 AM

GTADiver once bubbled...
Vital air will sell you the stuff if you are a certified blender as will praxair, BOC and all the other guys. The only problem people will have filling Jumbo D's from the DAN kits are that they have green tops. In Canada and all the rest of the world (excluding our neighbours to the south) oxygen bottles have white tops. Any respectable outfit will suggest the top be painted white prior to filling. Prescriptions are not required even though technically oxygen is a drug. For hydros try Superior Safety on Bently. There is no need to pay the middle man to send it in for you.

Dive shop vs praxair fill of a d-cylinder......... guess which one does the nitrogen purge first, then seals the orifice and then puts the entire cylinder into a sealed plastic bag to prevent contaminants from getting on the valve?

Does the average dive shop have the proper fill whip to fill a Jumbo D? I know on mine the tank valve on the Jumbo D looks a lot different than the one on my scuba tank.

Hey Doppler what is 8.5 cu. m in cu. ft or litres for us metrically challenged please. I don't imagine that O2 tank is too portable for taking to a remote dive site is it?

Kevin R

September 22nd, 2003, 04:33 PM

I've personally never had a problem with vitalaire either, just passing on what I've been told by a local diver setting up his station this year. Lino was great, he knew every diver in Eastern Ont. who was buying gas from him by name, and was always willing to go the extra step if you needed something in a hurry. At one point he was willing to procure He from Thunder Bay and have it shipped to Ottawa for me when it was hard to get in town. I just hope the level of service doesn't change as he will be a tough act to follow in my books. So far this year I've been dealing with Frank and he is also doing a great job.

Kevin

Doppler

September 22nd, 2003, 04:57 PM

pufferfish once bubbled...

Hey Doppler what is 8.5 cu. m in cu. ft or litres for us metrically challenged please. I don't imagine that O2 tank is too portable for taking to a remote dive site is it?

Well Puffer, it's about 224 cubic feet... I'm a bit challenged in many areas and non-metric stuff is one of them... The cylinder is sometimes called a T cylinder I believe. It's about 1.6 meters tall... whoops. It's about 5 feet tall and 9 or 10 inches in diameter... too big for a pony bottle!

Hope that helps.

pufferfish

September 22nd, 2003, 06:28 PM

Just curious what the dive shops charge to fill a Jumbo D (or per cu. ft) with O2?

After speaking with Vitalaire today and hearing what they want to charge me to fill my tank I may be looking for another option.
They are moving next month to the switch in/out programs like you do with the propane BBQ tanks. They own the tank and just loan it too you and of course they look after the hydro. Cost per fill will be $40.

As far as getting a DAN Jumbo D filled you will have to get the green top changed to white (if they do it $100) and then you will pay $105 for a fill if you want to keep your tank. If you are willing to switch in (ie. they become owner of your tank) then the fill will be $40.

Now I see Fill Express in Florida will fill DAN O2 tanks for free. Any dive shops in Ontario this progressive yet?

www.fillexpress.com

DPVDiver

September 22nd, 2003, 07:45 PM

Usually around 30 cents per cubic foot and there are at least two shops in Ottawa that can fill them. I really like the idea of filling emergency tanks for free though. I just wish a DAN type setup was a bit cheaper so it could be available for more recreatinal divers.

pufferfish

September 22nd, 2003, 08:10 PM

DPVDiver once bubbled...
Usually around 30 cents per cubic foot and there are at least two shops in Ottawa that can fill them. I really like the idea of filling emergency tanks for free though. I just wish a DAN type setup was a bit cheaper so it could be available for more recreatinal divers.

Thanks DPV. So a Jumbo D is 23 cu. ft which is about $7 for a fill and Vitalaire wants $40 to switch out my tank. Hmmm that looks like a no brainer.

As far shops offering free O2 fills while a great idea, how about we get them testing our air properly first :D

divemed06

September 26th, 2003, 07:40 PM

Vitale Air recommended that I bring my O2 tank to Davidson Fire Extinguishers on Percy street. 10$ for a Hydro vs. 80$ at Vital air (because their hydro is in New Brunswick). Davidson's also hydro scuba tanks (cost is per weight of the tanks so I'm assuming about 30$ for an alu80).

DPVDiver

September 26th, 2003, 07:52 PM

Check the threads on the tank before you take it there, I have seen at least a dozen scuba tanks come back from there with major damage to the threads, enough to fail them at vis. We had to start putting notes on the tanks that said "THREAD OK" so they would be careful. I don't really reccommend these guys.

You will also need it O2 cleaned when you get it back. Think of this expense too. Usually around $50 from the local dive shop.

Does the $80 from Vital Aire include O2 Cleaning and a O2 fill?

Check it out.

DPV

Kevin R

September 26th, 2003, 10:05 PM

Is this after you add cost for the labour to do the job, cleaning solution, insurance since you are charging for the job and are now responsible for it, nitrogen to blow dry the steel tank so it does not rust, the cost for the inspection lights, and don't forget the hydro to run those lights, the glass beads to tumble the tanks, the water to mix with the cleaning solution, inspection and repair of the valve if requested or required, the list goes on, oh and heaven forbid a dive shop turns a profit like any other business.

Call around and ask the shops what the price includes. There's nothing wrong with being an informed customer.

Kevin

divemed06

September 26th, 2003, 11:46 PM

The guy from vitale air told me that all I needed was the hydro and he would fill my tank? He's the one who recommended Davidson's so.....:confused:

D M I

September 27th, 2003, 12:18 AM

Hi

There are some hydro station that do perform Hydro's, visuals and in the end fill your tank, and there is nothing wrong with that. I must say thou that when I hear stories of tank threads being damaged from hydro testing is tend to make me think does the person doing the testing no the difference between a metric and standard thread size. As it stands now in Ontario it is the station facility that gets certified not the person performing the work, and as of next year 04 any new hydro stations being certified it will be the individual working on site, who will get certified and who will be responsible for there own work and re testing anually will be mandatory. Please note as of last week two new hydro stations were aproved. one at Climb/Dive Toronto and The Dive shop in Newmarket.

D M I

DPVDiver

September 27th, 2003, 06:27 AM

It will need to be O2 cleaned after hydro. Trust me, It wont be clean especially if it comes from Davidsons. Divemed, if you just get the hydro and don't clean it, when you take it to get it filled I suggest telling him to wait 10 min before filling and getting as far away from that fill station as you can. Also, let me know when you are doing it so I'm not in that area.

Kevin is right, call around for the O2 clean pricing. Try these:

Kanata Diving Supply, I think Kevin does their work
Dolphinos, Pat Shannon does their O2 stuff
Sharky's Scuba, Bruno is their tech
and Dive Tech in Mallorytown, talk to Dan, probably the best price.
His hydro guy tumbles and O2 cleans with the hydro all at once for I think around $40.

O2 cleaning is something I am extremely picky about, that is why I really suggest you get it done properly.

Kevin R

September 27th, 2003, 08:34 AM

What type of thread damage are you seeing. We've been using davidsons for years, and the only threads I've seen damaged were when they used a screwdriver to pry out the caps we install when we send out the tank, and they stopped that practice when we pointed it out to them. I haven't seen a tank come back damaged to the point that it needs to be replaced. I agree that if it is cross threaded, it would be ruined, however, with a thread as heavy as the valve threads, that would be pretty hard to do.

After the tank comes back from Hydro it will always have to be O2 cleaned. The water they fill it with during the test cannot be trusted to be clean, even if it doesn't show up on a blacklamp inspection.

I am especially particular about O2 cleaning and I don't fool around with it. It's not hard, but it's not worth the risk if it's not done right. I've had people contact me asking how to do it themselves and my answer is always the same. However, and I'm sure there's not a shop owner/operator on this list who will disagree with me, doing it right is more costly and time consuming, and those costs need to be made up somewhere from a business perspective.

Kevin

D M I

September 27th, 2003, 09:07 AM

Yo

Well said Kevin. lf there is a flash out it is mainly caused by the diver turning his valve on to fast and the heat generated by this action, can or could possibly cause a flash. This type of phenomena does happen and is mainly isolated to the first stage so turn your tanks on slowly. The percentage of compressed 02 in your mix also determines the flash point. Baboooooooom

D M I

pufferfish

September 27th, 2003, 09:09 AM

DPVDiver once bubbled...
It will need to be O2 cleaned after hydro. Trust me, It wont be clean especially if it comes from Davidsons. Divemed, if you just get the hydro and don't clean it, when you take it to get it filled I suggest telling him to wait 10 min before filling and getting as far away from that fill station as you can. Also, let me know when you are doing it so I'm not in that area.

Kevin is right, call around for the O2 clean pricing. Try these:

Kanata Diving Supply, I think Kevin does their work
Dolphinos, Pat Shannon does their O2 stuff
Sharky's Scuba, Bruno is their tech
and Dive Tech in Mallorytown, talk to Dan, probably the best price.
His hydro guy tumbles and O2 cleans with the hydro all at once for I think around $40.

O2 cleaning is something I am extremely picky about, that is why I really suggest you get it done properly.

Just curious out of that list above are all those places doing their own hydros? Which ones actually do the whole process, hydro, O2 clean, etc.

I was looking at picking up another used Jumbo D here from a med gas company but when he factors in the hydro, clean, and fill cost it is better to buy a new one from Diversco for $140. I assume when they come new with valve in place they are O2 clean? Is this assumption correct?

D M I

September 27th, 2003, 09:18 AM

Hello

All new tanks sold by Diversco are indeed cleaned, this is a safety standard procedure from the manufacturer. There are no impurities used during or after the aluminum cylinder punching process and or steel tank milling, and Cleaning prior to shipping is the norm. I purchased six cascade not to long ago and they were certified solvent free or if you want to call it 02 cleaned, and By the way the manufacturer does not call it 02 cleaning as a standard term, that is a diving industry term. Be careful of new tanks that have had there plastic valve cap removed from the bottle neck or valve port. I have a complete video collection from Catalina on tank manufacturing processes if any one want to drop by and view it.

D M I

DPVDiver

September 27th, 2003, 11:31 AM

The damage I've seen looks like they took a screwdriver and hammer to the threads. No word of a lie, we got a couple back we could not even screw in the valves. Since we started labelling them Thread OK there has been no problems. Being unsure of the exact process of hydro testing I am unsure if it is the screwdriver damage you spoke of, but it is definitely not cross threading.

As for the air tests, I would trust any of the above mentioned stores. Even if they don't pay 6x the regular price of an air test. I regularly get fills from three of the four.

DPVDiver

September 27th, 2003, 11:34 AM

If you ask those stores, at least the three I deal with they will be able to give you their two test results. 1 - for regular air 2 - for air sent through there hydrocarbon filter for mixing nitrox. The levels and acceptable levels are right there on the test sheet for both.
At least last time I checked.

pufferfish

September 27th, 2003, 04:23 PM

DPVDiver once bubbled...
If you ask those stores, at least the three I deal with they will be able to give you their two test results. 1 - for regular air 2 - for air sent through there hydrocarbon filter for mixing nitrox. The levels and acceptable levels are right there on the test sheet for both.
At least last time I checked.

DPV how about posting here the fill station name, the lab used and date of the test, and the actual value for the condensed hydrocarbon (oil) and particulates. Out of those four shops I think you might find one can provide you with a recent (less than six months) oil and particulate value but I could be wrong. In particular I am interested in a particulate assessment. I will gladly stand corrected on this matter if you can show otherwise.

pufferfish

September 27th, 2003, 05:13 PM

DPVDiver once bubbled...
As for the air tests, I would trust any of the above mentioned stores. Even if they don't pay 6x the regular price of an air test.

DPV if you are going to post stuff please get your facts straight. Assuming the OUC is still offering air testing a test from them costs $120 if you are a member.

A test from an accredited lab like Maxxam or Seatech costs $250 per test.

If the shop does the test twice a year as required by CSA Z180.1-00 then we are talking a whole extra $260 a year for the shop. What is that about fifty cents a fill or less?

I don't see the problems here folks with having all shops use an accredited lab other than maybe some of those poorly maintained systems out there might fail the test.

DPVDiver

September 27th, 2003, 05:21 PM

Are you saying that KDS, Sharky's and Divetech have bad Air??

As far as I know most PADI Facilities use Trace Analytics and I believe it is around $50 for the test, I may be wrong. Sorry if I exaggerated to say 6x. BTW, if you go to their website, www.airchecklab.com they say they are accredited, are they liars?

And, this thread started about an O2 tank in Ottawa. I fail to see how you can turn it into another one of your rants about air testing.

I am now through talking about air check labs.

DPV

pufferfish

September 27th, 2003, 06:18 PM

DPVDiver once bubbled...
Are you saying that KDS, Sharky's and Divetech have bad Air??

As far as I know most PADI Facilities use Trace Analytics and I believe it is around $50 for the test, I may be wrong. Sorry if I exaggerated to say 6x. BTW, if you go to their website, www.airchecklab.com they say they are accredited, are they liars?

And, this thread started about an O2 tank in Ottawa. I fail to see how you can turn it into another one of your rants about air testing.

I am now through talking about air check labs.

DPV

No I am not saying they have bad air.

You are right in that this thread did start out on O2 tanks but the subject of O2 cleaning came up and as I stated if you are going to pay to have your tank O2 cleaned then you might as well put oxygen compatible air in it, otherwise you are wasting your money and potentially endangering your health.

So DPV we know that Divetech uses OUC (unaccredited) and Dolphinos uses Maxxam (accredited) but what about the other two shops?

You know I apologize if at times this comes across as a rant but you know it just seems like such a no brainer as to why one should use an accredited lab. Cost is really not an issue here for doing the test twice a year. As far as some of the editorializing thrown in to my 'rants' it is the only way to spice up what is a pretty dry but important and potentially explosive subject matter :)

Kevin R

September 27th, 2003, 09:14 PM

KDS is required to test to Z180 standards by the Ministry of Labour since our air is used by our commercial diving division as well as our recreational customers. We also fill SCBA tanks for firefighters, and we fill tanks for Parks Canada. Tests are purchased from Lawrence Factor and sent to Aqualung Canada in BC. I don't know offhand which lab Lawrence Factor is using. We have never failed a test and inspect and replace our filters on regular intervals depending on compressor hours. If in doubt, feel free to ask Rob for the certificate. It's hanging by the cascade. This is as far as I'm going into the great air debate.

Kevin

p.s. could this be considered a thread hijacking? :D

pufferfish

September 29th, 2003, 03:49 PM

For those of you who have not come across the excellent books by Vance Harlow they are the Haynes manuals of scuba repair and gas mixing. I forget what name he posts under but Vance has been on the board in the past.

Here is a quote from his book "The Oxygen Hacker's Companion" on O2 cleaning. No it is not rocket science but does take time and care to do properly.

As for getting your tanks O2 cleaned AND ensuring you have oxygen compatible air (oil and particulate free) he offers the following advice for those of you who think you can get away without having one or the other.

"It's one of those things that you may get away with ten or a hundred times, but if on the thousandth time it blows up in your face you're going to feel pretty stupid in those last micro-seconds."

Just like the shuttle managers got away with foam having flown off a few times before and hit the heat tiles without problems Murphy saw that their overconfidence and complacency was sadly rewarded with the demise of the shuttle.

Using untested air or air tested by unreliable labs will see that Murphy will visit you at some point. Pure oxygen ,dirty tanks, or air contaminated with oil or particulates just don't mix.

Here is the link to the above quote.

O2 Cleaning (http://www.airspeedpress.com/oxyread.html)

Kevin R

September 29th, 2003, 04:34 PM

Do you really think that the people on this board are so naive as to think that Parks Canada, that has a few of their own breathing air compressors in Ottawa, would drive all the way from the east end to Kanata to get an air fill? Same question for the fire dept.

Dude, I don't have any reason to lie to you, but if you really don't believe me, stop in and see. Davidson's hydro's them, sends them to us, and we vis+ & fill them. This means our air has to meet the Ministry standards. Also, many outlying FD's do not have their own compressors and have to get the SCBA tanks filled somewhere.

Kevin

Mark L

September 29th, 2003, 06:28 PM

Kevin Ripley once bubbled...

Dude, I don't have any reason to lie to you, but if you really don't believe me, stop in and see. Davidson's hydro's them, sends them to us, and we vis+ & fill them. This means our air has to meet the Ministry standards. Also, many outlying FD's do not have their own compressors and have to get the SCBA tanks filled somewhere.

Kevin
If Davidson's does the hydro they are legally required to do a visual at the time of hydro. Do you redo them as you are completely familiar with CSA z-94.3 and NFPA 1989? Are you claiming that there are Parks Canada cylinders in the shop now?

DivingGal

September 30th, 2003, 07:10 AM

This thread has been "clean up" and much of the rantings contained within certain posts have been removed.

The member who started the thread had a question. It was answered. Others added in concerns about having "valid" O2 fills and what that meant, this added value to the thread. The rantings did not.

... so please play nice in the sandbox.

Big-t-2538

September 30th, 2003, 07:27 AM

DivingGal once bubbled...

... so please play nice in the sandbox. but...but...but I don't have a sand box....please show me where the sand box is...I want to playu with my new loader....oh where's the sandbox...

:haha:

pufferfish

September 30th, 2003, 10:32 AM

Yah I guess things were getting a bit out of hand there weren't they, but I must admit the Puffinator was real good. I am still trying to get the coffee out of my keyboard :)

In anycase you guys and gals as mods have a tough job to do and I take my hat off to you for keeping SB a fun and lively place for the exchange of ideas and information. I apolgize for getting carried away with my posts at times and will try and keep them more concise and on topic.

Happy Belated Birthday by the way DivingGal