St. Lawrence + 7mm wetsuit = how long a season?

[Air_Miser]

Ok,

So this is my first season diving, and the equipment piggy bank had enough in it to get me fully geared, but not enough for a drysuit this year!

Just wondering around when you other wetsuit divers call it a season? Halloween?......Rememberance Day?.....

Let the bragging begin :) .....

Matt

[Groundhog246]

That will vary from person to person. For my wife, usually by the end of October. For me, when the water gets hard. I did a dive on the Morrison in Lake Simcoe Dec. 22/02 water was 41F, air about 5C and Coploy's Bay near Wiarton Jan. 1/03 water was 38F and air was -6C with strong winds. On the Morrison we undressed in my van after the dive (dressed ofr it outside), Jan. 1 was a group event and there was a tent with heaters which kept it about +12C
Sorry for the mixed temps (C&F). My dive gear all Imperial, while my vehicle thermometer is C.
Both dives were in a 7mm Bre Extreme (one piece). I;ve since bought a sleeveless jacket and have had it down to 42F, worth the extra. I find the one piece itself fine down to the low 50's, but cool below that. I find the one piece with a hooded sleeveless vest warmer than the john/jacket combo I started with.

[divedude]

I've been diving for a couple of years and have never owned or wore a drysuit. I have a icediver cert. found a two piece 7mm fine.


OK OK more than a couple of years but when I remember how long, I remember I'm a old fart :doctor:

[Under Michael]

Hey Matt, I have a pre-enjoyed dry suit that could be had for a few bucks.
Michael
:)

[artw]

My wetsuit dive season will come to an end when my drysuit gets finished being repaired. Currently I use a 7mm farmer john/jacket and a 3mm shorty on top of that. 5ml hood and 5ml gloves. and I am warm. I could probably go until the water was high 50's. but it is a personal comfort issue. If you are not comfortable half way through your dive then your safety could be compromised. Doing an accellerated ascent / shorter stops because you are cold and want out is not an option in my opinion.

Art

[JimC]

There is a wetsuit season on the St Lawrence?

If your a cold blooded masochist you can dive wet year round.
If you like being warm, get a dry suit.


You realy just don't realise how cold you are in a wetsuit untill you have tried it dry.

[tektom]

JimC once bubbled...
There is a wetsuit season on the St Lawrence?

If your a cold blooded masochist you can dive wet year round.
If you like being warm, get a dry suit.


You realy just don't realise how cold you are in a wetsuit untill you have tried it dry.

LOL! Strong language from a recent convert!:D But I second the notion - my last wetsuit dive in the St.Lawrence was a year or two ago, in mid-August and only to remember what it felt like. Wetsuits are for Bonaire:mean:

[JimC]

Shush up about Bonair already!

*looks over his shoulder for the angry, Bonair-less, wife*

[DPVDiver]

My first season diving I dove all winter in 7MM suit, one piece. I had a hooded vest that really helped. After that winter I purchased a drysuit and now I no longer own a wetsuit.

A couple of tips that might help to keep you warm all through the winter.

1 - Bring Hot water in a thermos to help pre heat the suit and warm your hands.

2 - Use duct tape around your legs and wrists. People may make fun of you for this.

3 - Hitch a ride to the dive site with someone who owns a Van. This way you can have someon stay topside and keep the changeroom (Van) warm while you dive.

4 - Only do one dive and get the suit off asap upon surfacing.

5 - Think about how much you actually plan to dive in the winter. Perhaps you could take a drysuit course and rent one for the few times you will dive in the winter.

Hope it helps.

DPV

[taz22]

divedude once bubbled...
I've been diving for a couple of years and have never owned or wore a drysuit. I have a icediver cert. found a two piece 7mm fine.


OK OK more than a couple of years but when I remember how long, I remember I'm a old fart :doctor:

I wear my 7mm wetsuit and 3mm hooded vest and enjoy diving right up to and including New Years Day. Thankfully the hot tub is close by after those dives.

[Kevin R]

I recently read an article that said using hot water to bring up the temp when cold water diving wasn't a good idea. Apparently all you do is trick the body into moving the warm blood from the core of the body to the extremedies where it cools further and then when it is returned to the core, your body must use more energy and heat reserves to warm up the re-cooled blood and you end up colder than before.

Pufferfish probably has a better explanation for this since he fixes people and I fix cars. Any thoughts that don't include air testing standards? :)

Kevin

[Mark L]

Kevin Ripley once bubbled...
I recently read an article that said using hot water to bring up the temp when cold water diving wasn't a good idea. Apparently all you do is trick the body into moving the warm blood from the core of the body to the extremedies where it cools further and then when it is returned to the core, your body must use more energy and heat reserves to warm up the re-cooled blood and you end up colder than before.

Pufferfish probably has a better explanation for this since he fixes people and I fix cars. Any thoughts that don't include air testing standards? :)

Kevin

Yes, Kevin there have been several articles supporting what you are saying.

[DPVDiver]

Sorry if I have advocated unhealthy behaviour. Any particular place I could read the articles?

[pufferfish]

Kevin Ripley once bubbled...
I recently read an article that said using hot water to bring up the temp when cold water diving wasn't a good idea. Apparently all you do is trick the body into moving the warm blood from the core of the body to the extremedies where it cools further and then when it is returned to the core, your body must use more energy and heat reserves to warm up the re-cooled blood and you end up colder than before.

Pufferfish probably has a better explanation for this since he fixes people and I fix cars. Any thoughts that don't include air testing standards? :)

Kevin

Sorry no thoughts at all unless it involves air standards :D

Just curious where did you read that? Sounds like possibly another one of those urban myths like argon is warmer than air in drysuits. Any how I have no expertise in environmental physiology other than what I have read and remember from school many years ago. Dr. Paul Thomas is probably the guy to ask on this topic but here is two cents worth anyhow.

I still dive wet and have done the warm water trick many times so I am a believer. A poorly fitting wetsuit is likely far more of a factor in becoming hypothermic sooner than pouring some warm water down your suit. First off the water usually is warm not hot and secondly it gets poured in just before diving. As even the best wet suit fit allows some water movement through it, the effect of the warm water causing or maintaining enough peripheral vasodilation so as to cool the core would only likely be on the order of minutes just not significant compared to the big factors like suit fit and body composition. Within those minutes convective losses occur with the movement of water into and out of the suit and the water will soon drop to the same temperature as if you jumped in dry, filled the skin/suit interface with ambient water and used your periphery to warm the water. Even if the wet suit was technically sealed the temperature of the warm water inside would equlibrate in minutes to some steady state dependent on conductive losses of heat to the outside surrounding water again probably in the order of minutes. So no I don't think using warm water would alter your core temp to any significant degree and I just don't like the shock of cold water running into my suit which likely induces all kinds of other negative effects like a sudden surge of epinephrine which then has all sorts of cardiovascular effects. Not only is the warm water more comfortable overall I suspect the gradual cooling over minutes is healthier than the sudden cold induced inspiration.

In anycase there are many chapters written on this stuff which you can read in any basic physiology book. Jolie Bookspan's book called "Diving Physiology in Plain Enlglish" available from DAN is an excellent starting point. Here is an article from here book on cold water tolerance linked to scuba doc's web site.
Acclimatization to Cold Water Diving (http://scuba-doc.com/coldacclim.html)

Bennett and Elliot say that saturation divers in the North Sea use essentially water perfused wetsuits. The temperature of the water flushing the suit is maintained between 35 to 40 C so as to minimize the gradient between the skin and perfusing water. These guys have been shown likely with rectal temp probes (yuk) to be able to maintain core temp for up to six hours at 525 feet in water from 4 to 6 degrees.

I think all of DPV's ideas are reasonable and I will have to try the duct tape trick as yes that would reduce the convective losses but I guess that really means no mid dive warmups from micturation ;)

[pufferfish]

Dr. Bookspan answers the question right in the link. I had read the section in her book but not the link which is more thorough.

She states pouring warm water down your suit or sitting in a warm car between dives in more likely beneficial than detrimental.

I guess I should read things more closely before I post them, eh.
(I can't find that little guy hitting himself with the hammer on the head)

And just to head all the drysuit guys off at the pass on the argon issue just go and read the article by Risberg L. et al. "Thermal insulation porperties of argon used as a dry suit inflation gas." Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine 2001: 28:137-143. If I recall correctly it was conducted by the Norweigan navy and said no difference in core temps. Just like fin testing where subjective perception by the diver is very different from the reality of real life physiological or engineering tests.

[DPVDiver]

Kevin has a good point. Back when I used to do cold water wet dives I would often fill my suit with warm liquid several times during the dive. If you know what I mean. It did get warm momentarily, however it did seem to cool me down more later!

Plus all that wetsuit shampoo was hard on the wallet! Not to mention the ride home with that Wetsuit in my car!

BTW, I have read those argon articles, but to me it seems warmer. It may be only Psychological but come January I'll take what I can get.

DPV

[Col.Cluster]

pufferfish once bubbled...
And just to head all the drysuit guys off at the pass on the argon issue just go and read the article by Risberg L. et al. "Thermal insulation porperties of argon used as a dry suit inflation gas." Undersea and Hyperbaric Medicine 2001: 28:137-143. If I recall correctly it was conducted by the Norweigan navy and said no difference in core temps. Just like fin testing where subjective perception by the diver is very different from the reality of real life physiological or engineering tests.

Dude

If I recall the article you are referring to correctly. The Norwegian’s were testing in 7mm neoprene suits only to 2ATA. The suits were not given a chance to compress completely. Therefore they were also testing the insulation factor of the suits on top of the argon/air. I also believe that the testing only went as far as to ask the divers if they were cold or not. There were no actual measurements of core temperature changes.

I could be mistaken, as I have not re-read the article. It was place in the appropriate file a while back.

All the best
CC

[Col.Cluster]

Air_Miser once bubbled...
Ok,

So this is my first season diving, and the equipment piggy bank had enough in it to get me fully geared, but not enough for a drysuit this year!

Just wondering around when you other wetsuit divers call it a season? Halloween?......Rememberance Day?.....

Let the bragging begin :) .....

Matt

Matt,

I have seen folks diving through into November in wet suits. A more pracitical rule of thumb would be to say I have seen folks diving wet as long as the charter boats are still in the water. All the wet suit divers I know suffer from the cold once they are back on the surface. Take measures to get yourself out of the wet stuff and into warm dry windproof gear once you get out.
Enjoy the dives
All the best
CC

[pufferfish]

Col.Cluster once bubbled...


Dude

If I recall the article you are referring to correctly. The Norwegian’s were testing in 7mm neoprene suits only to 2ATA. The suits were not given a chance to compress completely. Therefore they were also testing the insulation factor of the suits on top of the argon/air. I also believe that the testing only went as far as to ask the divers if they were cold or not. There were no actual measurements of core temperature changes.

I could be mistaken, as I have not re-read the article. It was place in the appropriate file a while back.

All the best
CC

I only have the abstract on hand. In the study they did use rectal and skin probes and the divers went to 33 feet. I do not know what type of drysuit they were using.

As this topic of argon seems to be one of those motherhood issues and I am a wetsuit diver I will defer to one of our own Canadian technical diving experts Dr. Sawatzky who has worked at DCIEM and who has spoken and written on the topic.
Diving Myths (http://www.uhms-glc.ca/glc22rpt.html#tech)
Argon and Diving see page 3 (http://members.cox.net/szloh/AquaNotes_Vol37_low.pdf)


I would have to agree with CC in that once the fall air temp drops if you are doing two tank dives and stay in that cold wet suit on the boat you are going to get even colder. It is on those second dives where one does have to be very careful about hypothermia if you are diving wet. Best to get out of the suit, get dry, and get in a warm area if possible. Drink warm fluids. If you have a few more $$ to spend the suits which have only nylon on the outside and neoprene on the skin side make a huge difference in dry time and often they are fully dry on the skin side in less than an hour. They go by the names like Goldcore from Henderson or Glideskin from Bare. I have a nylon two side and it is often real tough to put a wet wetsuit back on and jump back in forty degree water. Kind of builds character though.

As for rewarming the car or van is great but beware of a charter boat I saw in Brockville which has a large propane heater on board in an enclosed space for rewarming divers. Maybe Kevin knows what is given off as a byproduct of propane combustion as he works on cars :)

[Tom R]

Some one call Ripley's the Pufferfish actually agreed with someone. ;)

[pufferfish]

I guess the jury is still out on this one. Anybody have much experience with jumping in the hot tub post dive? I have never had a problem with a real hot shower, but that is often an hour or two after the dive.

I guess getting in the suana would be definitely out of the question to warm up.

Hot tubs to warm up (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9333&highlight=hot+tub)

[Groundhog246]

pufferfish once bubbled...
Argon and Diving see page 3 (http://members.cox.net/szloh/AquaNotes_Vol37_low.pdf)


I recall reading the article/study they're talking about (now if I could remember which magazine published and where I put it, I think it was "Dive Training") on page 3. It was double blind, six divers. They had both surface (skin) and core (rectal) thermometers. Each diver did 2 dives, one air, one argon. Neither the diver, nor the people supervising knew which dive was which gas (that was controlled by a 3rd person, thus the "double" blind). I don't remember the water temp, wasn't extreme, but was cool. Each diver spent an hour on the bottom with minimal activity (moving muscles create heat).
Only one diver did not complete one of his dives due to being too cold. As it happened that was his argon dive. There was no measureable difference in heat loss between argon and air used to inflate the drysuits. One factor mentioned was that over 40% of heat loss on open circuit is the breathing gas. Thus the exposure suit chosen has less effect on heat loss, than one might anticipate.

One error in the newsletter review of the article concerns diving with tri-mix. The original article did in fact say that using tri-mix to inflate a drysuit would likely cause higher heat loss. However, rather than rigging an argon bottle, or other air source, it recommended inflating from an air or nitrox stage bottle. The author of the original article thought that the possible risks of someone hooking up a small argon bottle to a reg set as a bailout bottle (it has apparently happened with fatal consequences) far outweigh any possible heat saving, as well as the added benefit of one less system (argon bottle/reg/hose) to deal with, thus one less complication and one less failure point.

Thread hijack in progress
With the DIR emphasis on "points of failure", is an argon bottle, which adds additional points of failure DIR compliant? I am serious in this, not trying to raise an argument. With the strong emphasis placed on simplicity, minimalism and safety (eg properly rigged doubles with, if I have it right, suit whip on one 1st and BC/wing whip on the other) is there a position on argon?

[Dan MacKay]

An argon or air bottle is always used by DIR divers that are using helium. I do not care to get into an arguement over the pros and cons of argon. Suffice it to say I use it and it is warmer. When David Sawatski was asked if he would give up using argon his reply was just not no but hell no.

For those of you who have never spent a couple of hours in deco in cold water I guess it is not an issue but I use it most of the time simply because it is convienient ( just walk out to the fill shed), rigged properly so unobtrusive and if nothing else physcologically warming. My blankie so to speak.

Safe dives,

Dan

[Col.Cluster]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...

Thread hijack in progress
With the DIR emphasis on "points of failure", is an argon bottle, which adds additional points of failure DIR compliant? I am serious in this, not trying to raise an argument. With the strong emphasis placed on simplicity, minimalism and safety (eg properly rigged doubles with, if I have it right, suit whip on one 1st and BC/wing whip on the other) is there a position on argon?

You only have part of it correct. For more details on argon rigging go to www.gue.com
DIR is a complete and holistic system.

Personal point, I have done the dives with argon and without. I can do approx 60mins comfortably in 33f water before the chill starts to set in. I can do approx 90mins with argon. This is in line with gue’s thinking that argon has a heat transfer capacity of approx 66% that of compressed air. This is in line with results from the wkpp with divers using air or argon on the same dives.

It is only empirical evidence. I am not going to debate the use of argon. If you do not want it do not take it. It means little to me either way.

The articles quoted are the previous posts also lose sight of the whole picture. Extra underwear restricts movement, which opens up a whole new can of worms.

All the best
James

[Col.Cluster]

opps

[pufferfish]

nt

[pufferfish]

technical problems still with this board.

[pufferfish]

Col.Cluster once bubbled...
opps
Oops he says and tries to desperately delete. If I didn't just choke on my coffee I'd go and pull up ALL those quotes where Colonel Cluster was having lunch with JP, or Colonel Cluster just got off the phone with JP to donate the photos to Doppler, and a bunch more. It was obvious anyhow 'yeah baby' from the day JP disappeared. Made for a good laugh must say.

Someone call Marvintpa for that score card on scuba-induced multiple personality disorder :out:

[Col.Cluster]

Pufferfish

I just had to pull this one on you. I wondered how long it would take you to bite on this one. You have just demonstrated better then I or anyone else could ever put into words what is wrong with everything you post to the board. A small description of which follows:

If you find it posted on the internet and it is what you want to believe then you jump all over it and claim it has true, regardless of the real life experience of the many divers around you. As far as diving goes you are of some reading, but little if any real experience. These two posts are prime example. You could not even find the time to check the times I posted or edited the last 2 posts. They were put up with 2 minutes of each other. If the board had not gone down, I believe I would have won the pot on ‘how long it would take you to jump all over the name james’. I had you in the 1 to 2 hour range.

You are far too predictable and I will leave it at that.

All the best
CC

ROFLMAO :stupid:

[Tom R]

ROTFLMAO here,

The Col is with us in Kingston and JP is in Toronto with a cold, but you know what they say about assumptions.

Tom

[pufferfish]

Col.Cluster once bubbled...
Pufferfish

I just had to pull this one on you. I wondered how long it would take you to bite on this one. You have just demonstrated better then I or anyone else could ever put into words what is wrong with everything you post to the board. A small description of which follows:

You are far too predictable and I will leave it at that.

All the best
CC


James Pate, aka CC, you should really label your posts with a coke alert. Let me get this straight. You post a reply to Groundhog regarding your thoughts on argon and your personal experience with argon in cold deco water. Actually that was interesting. But all the while the post was really a set up to entrap Pufferfish to show how predictable I am. And there was even a pot to boot betting on the times I might chime in. Come on you can do better than that piece of Scubaboard fiction :D:D. I am flattered though that you would actually use your valuable time thinking up such schemes and that I feature so prominently in your day to day thoughts. Didn't you say a few days back that you had a new teething baby you had to attend to?

You may have changed your name James, but Colonel Cluster's posts still look and read the same. If there is only one guy on "top" then his voice 'signature' is pretty easy to identify.

Now on to something more productive. I'd be curious to know your thoughts on the relationship between position in the water column (vertical vs. horizontal) and warmth perception with argon use. Some have said that when horizontal in the water column most of the gas in the drysuit is over the neck, back, and legs creating a much larger volume of gas to insulate these areas. Argon with its lower heat transfer capacity than air in such a large volume over the diver's backside while horizontal may make a significant difference with respect to heat loss in cold water.

[Col.Cluster]

Actually Puffer you are the FOCUS as you are once again misleading divers. You are leading divers to believe that there is no benefit to the use of argon. In doing so you are encouraging the inexperienced among us to dive the extremes of winter (33f water) without all the benefits of the best protection available. You are encouraging divers to expose themselves to a higher risk of hypothermia, which in turn exposes divers to a higher risk of DCI. As much as we all find humour in your posts, we still have a sense of responsibility to correctly inform divers when we see you posting disinformation that can endanger others. We just exposed you for the charlatan you are. And yes we do have fun in the process.

In response to your question regarding using argon or air to insulate, we do not use either as an insulator. We use quality thermal underwear to insulate against the cold. We use the inflation gas to remove the squeeze of the suit as depth increase. Therefore there is no large volume of gas to worry about. To give you an idea of the limited amount of gas that we do use: 6cft of argon lasts most of us for 3 to 4 dives to 100ft. Since there is a limited amount of gas in the suit it is vital to use the gas the least heat transfer rate. Therefore selecting and using the gas with the least heat transfer rate becomes as critical to the dive as the selection of the appropriate breathing gas. This is my final post regarding Argon. It works and has a real impact on long term exposure to cold water. I strongly recommend the use of it, if you plan to dive throughout the winter in the river.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how long a person can survive in 33f water without an exposure suit?

All the best
CC

[pufferfish]

Tom R once bubbled...
ROTFLMAO here,

The Col is with us in Kingston and JP is in Toronto with a cold, but you know what they say about assumptions.

Tom

And what do they say about assumptions Tom? I think we have correctly assumed all along you were Jimmy B. And all this posturing from the shop that on numerous occasions boasted they only use their real names on posts and chided the rest of us for not doing so.

Have a look here at the 7th post
Case #2 of scuba induced multiple personality disorder (http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24829&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=4)

The voice 'signature' is classic Tom, short reply and a little underwater history to boot.

Someone call Marvintpa again for that scorecard as we have case #2 of scuba-induced MPD from NTD. I think it is time to quarantine these guys so the disease outbreak doesn't spread any further into the Ontario diver population. :D

[artw]

Sorry to hijack your argon thread -
but my wetsuit season is over now, the water was 59F at Ivy Lea today in the St. Lawrence River

[pufferfish]

Col.Cluster once bubbled...
Actually Puffer you are the FOCUS as you are once again misleading divers. You are leading divers to believe that there is no benefit to the use of argon. In doing so you are encouraging the inexperienced among us to dive the extremes of winter (33f water) without all the benefits of the best protection available. You are encouraging divers to expose themselves to a higher risk of hypothermia, which in turn exposes divers to a higher risk of DCI. As much as we all find humour in your posts, we still have a sense of responsibility to correctly inform divers when we see you posting disinformation that can endanger others. We just exposed you for the charlatan you are. And yes we do have fun in the process.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how long a person can survive in 33f water without an exposure suit?

All the best
CC

So I am the focus once again of misleading divers am I James? Like some kind of Pied Piper Pufferfish with all the dive lemmings following blindly behind ready to leap over the cliff into that cold icy water without argon on board at my very command, is that it? I hope your post is a real bad attempt at humour as if not James you are getting pretty desperate here with your gratuitous assertions and collateral damage of insulting other divers on this board who are quite capable of making their own rational decisions on what type of exposure protection is best for them. I hardly think I am to blame for misleading anyone about argon use with a few links on the topic that don't happen to mesh with your worldview and that this information somehow might endanger the 'inexperienced amongst us' who might be diving argon,... now that makes a lot of sense. Why don't we wait and see what *other* board members have to say about this dangerous disinformation campaign against argon use mounted by the Pied Piper Pufferfish before you comment any further :rolleyes:

As for your question on survival expectancy related to water temperature that is a difficult one to answer with an exact time as like with DCS there are lots of individual risk factors and also the intraindividual risk can vary from day to day. Of those survivors from the Titanic with life jackets few lasted more than forty minutes. I am looking at one of those survival charts for the naked person in one degree water, and although the graph resolution is not great the survival time is less than an hour. Something as simple as one's will to survive can have a huge effect on outcome. Core temp prior to immersion is also very important. Obviously the amount of 'natural' insulation one has is likely one of the most important factors. The answer though is probably somewhere between fifteen minutes and forty five minutes. Here is a link to a NOAA page on some of this stuff.

NOAA Cold Water Dive Physiology (http://www.gdansk.sprint.pl/firmy/jastra/nurek/subsec34.htm)

[taz22]

artw once bubbled...
Sorry to hijack your argon thread -
but my wetsuit season is over now, the water was 59F at Ivy Lea today in the St. Lawrence River


Ah...come on....still lots of wetsuit diving left.

[Tom R]

Well some people dive, some puffers talk about diving :) .

I guess life is good

Tom R

[Warren_L]

I just got back from diving the Munson this morning in K-town. It was still 59 F at 110'. Now that's down-right balmy!

[diverdeb001]

Right now the water is still ok it's the air that's cold!!!! A good fitting hood and warm gloves make a big difference when diving wet. A core warmer over a full one piece 7 ml suit can also prolong the season. A nice warm place to go after really helps too!! db

[pufferfish]

Tom R once bubbled...
Well some people dive, some puffers talk about diving :) .

I guess life is good

Tom R

Tom that doesn't sound like you. Getting a little testy in quarantine are we ;)

Actually I work every second weekend plus my weekday work so as much as I'd love to be diving more it just doesn't happen. Zipping somewhere for the day to dive from TO is just not worthwhile.

Next weekend though we hope to dive a bunch of bridges on the Rideau Canal just north of Kingston as there is no boat traffic, possibly off Cartwright's Point, and maybe down to Brockville for a few wrecks weather pending. Just picked up some nice new neoprene boots today.

Any suggestions were I might find some accredited air up that way? :D

[Tom R]

The 20 or so divers I interacted with today (all from the TO area), felt coming to Kingston for the day for a dive was well worth it. Cartwright Point, I thought that was in Kingston near the Princess Charolette is there another?

Tom

[pufferfish]

Yah it can be done but depends on what side of the city you are on. I am an hour just to Whitby so it is a little too much driving for one day I find.

Yes Cartwright Point in Kingston and the Princess Regent is nearby. Just happen to have a warm shower five minutes away and have never had a look at that wreck. I read it is a pile of lumber but just would like to see the remains of a ship that fought in the War of 1812. Is there really anything to see?

[Tom R]

Just ribs, it's actually the Princess Charlotte a survey was conducted by J. Moore, POW and Parks Canada a couple of years ago and id the wrecks as such.

Tom

[cat]

I am glad to hear the temps are still balmy enough down there for pleasant *recreational* wetsuit diving :D
See some of you this coming weekend. I'll be the one in the wetsuit (no drysuit makes all this discussion of Ar vs air vs self-generated methane a bit moot for me, I'm afraid), grinning like a banshee in what is sounding like mighty *warm* water. Hey Tom: what's good charter-wise over the Thanksgiving weekend? (The PTB have foolishly certified me for your "Nirtox" now, hee-hee!)

[pufferfish]

This women Lynne Cox swam recently in the Antarctica 1.2 miles in 25 minutes with only a bathing suit on which has confounded scientists. Body shape, percentage body fat, adaptation, and shear determination allowed her to complete this incredible feat.

Record Cold Water Swim (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/12/60II/main540357.shtml)

Makes the St. Lawrence River look like a hot tub :)

[Tom R]

Still have some opening left,

Tom

[D M I]

Hello


Boy you same group of guys are boring don't you ever talk adventure, your always beating each other up against the head over issues with no positive end amongst your selves. I really wonder how many of you said to be teck divers have really been were no man has not gone before. Go get them Mark L

D M I

[Warren_L]

cat once bubbled...
I am glad to hear the temps are still balmy enough down there for pleasant *recreational* wetsuit diving :D
See some of you this coming weekend. I'll be the one in the wetsuit (no drysuit makes all this discussion of Ar vs air vs self-generated methane a bit moot for me, I'm afraid), grinning like a banshee in what is sounding like mighty *warm* water

Posting on topic? Well there's a novel idea :)

Supposed to be reasonably warm this week so bottom temps might not change that much. Should be good to dive wet for a little while longer.

[artw]

Yeah, this is true, on Sat when we were at the river it was cold windy and raining. (artw do you want some cheese with that whine).
Probably still wont be a couple weeks anyway until I get my thermies and the drysuit repaired.