Optimal Drysuit

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

ColinCB

Registered
Messages
66
Reaction score
0
Location
New England
# of dives
50 - 99
I will be purchasing a dry in the next few months and I'm looking for commentary.

First of all, I'll be diving non-tech/DIR for quite awhile before I am able to become tech certified. I am interested in reaching full cave certification. I dive in the chilly North East US, primarily MA, RI, PA, NJ, and CT. Water temps range from around 35-55, and rarely higher than that.

I've been looking at DUI suits and the TLS350 and 50/50 seem best fit. The TLS for its flexibility, but the 50/50 has warmer crushed neoprene bottoms.

Cave cut? It is necessity to get this cut? I'm not interested in destroying a $3,000 suit in only a few years. Not to mention the necessary waiver.

Zipseals, are they DIR or not? They seem useful especially with changing out seals quickly to avoid lost dives.

Anything else?

Thanks!
 
First off you don’t have to be a technical diver to dive GUE/DIR. It’s a swell system that will help divers of all levels.

For this style of diving the basic requirements are: a well fitted drysuit that will not compress with depth (e.g. not uncompressed neoprene).

I dive a CF200 - all crushed neoprene. It is pretty sweet underwater but I'm not a huge fan of the thickness of the material. It is trickier to don and significantly heavier when wet than a shell suit. It is a warmer suit than a trilaminate (TLS/FLX extreme/CLX/etc) and DUI estimates through it’s internal testing that the difference is about the same as the improvement from adding a fleece vest (approximately 5 degrees F). Some people notice a bigger difference, but it can be hard to judge because the suit takes much longer to initially cool off and is deceptively warm at the beginning of the dive. If you decide to go with a CF, realize the exhaust vent placement is wonky and try to get them to place it a bit further back, it’s normal position is trickier to vent than it needs to be.

As for the 50/50, the biggest advantage would likely be from wear resistance and not warmth. If you’re adding 5 degrees with a full CF suit, you’re only adding 2.5 degrees with a 50/50, which is very, very little. However, if you're going to be doing a lot of crawling over rocks, the 50/50 may be a better choice because of the added durability in the legs. Also, CF material is a bit stretchy and you’ll probably get a slightly better fit in the legs than with a trilam. Any neoprene suit will take a long time to dry (a day or two) and will stay heavy when wet. If you plan to travel, this is a serious consideration because of flying weight – so consider this when choosing.

Just in case you’re considering a back-entry suit, I would recommend against it. The back zipper can interfere with flexibility, but more importantly back-entry suits don’t usually come with extendable torsos, which are very important when it comes to valve manipulations (especially in single tanks).

Cave cut is not necessary except in the very specific applications it was designed for. You’re probably not planning on doing six hour scooter runs in 300 foot deep caves too soon, and when you do you’ll probably have a suit or two dedicated to it. I would recommend against cave cut - you will lose flexibility if the suit’s cut is not perfect, the suit will be harder to don and will likely leak more.

Many of the TLS suits I've encountered have some troubles with leaks. The material is not very resilient. I would encourage you to look at the FLX extreme - a slightly more durable laminate suit that won't be as prone to pinholes but will retain a high degree of flexibility.

Zipseals are kosher. Make sure your head fits through the zip ring neck, as larger heads won't be able to squeeze through. A larger ring is on the way but is not yet available. Zipseals on your wrists are especially nice for cold water because you can attach drygloves, which will improve your overall body temperature even if your hands don't get cold. Cold hands act like radiators because of the high blood flow. There are other options for drygloves, but they typically require rings that can interfere with valve manipulation. Ring systems will allow you to don your gloves after your suit though, so they’re something to consider separately, they have advantages and disadvantages.

Whatever you do, get pockets - big pockets – as big as you can find. The stock large bellows pockets are nice, but large Halcyon explorer pockets are the best I’ve seen. Larger pockets have few downsides and with thick gloves it can really be a trick to get into a smaller pocket. Ideally, you want the pockets a little higher than DUI typically puts them – around 1-1.5” up will make them much easier to get into. GUE/DIR generally favors Velcro pockets because they fail open and are a bit easier to get into. Admittedly, Halcyon’s pockets have an inexplicable zipper mini-pocket on them, but hey, nobody’s perfect.

DUI will stitch and glue the pockets to your suit. This makes for a much sturdier base and limits their tendency to peel off (as glue-only pockets tend to do). Of all the things you can get fitted at the factory, this is probably one of the most important. I would say the most important addition is kneepads, only because as far as I know, they can’t be fitted after the suit is made. If you want kneepads, and you do, get them on your suit when you order it. A cloverleaf is nice too, it protects one of the highest wear areas of the suit and works especially well as a nad pad for scootering.

Another delightful addition is a P-valve that is used with external condom catheters for guys or a she-p for gals. They are worth every penny/bit of sensitive skin that they’ll cost you. You can order the valve fitted from the factory or save some money and do it yourself (installation does involve punching hole in your suit though). DUI fits the Halcyon one and I’m a big fan of this particular valve, but I have admittedly never tried another. If you decide to shop around for other choices do your research, some very unpleasant things can happen when P-valves fail. Also, when you do decide to get one, find a syringe that will fit the tubing and wash the tube and valve after every use with alcohol or a bleach solution – urinary tract infections are no fun.

I really can’t stress how important a P-valve is. You want one. Get it.

As for footwear, I’m a big fan of turbosoles. This is largely a preference thing, and will depend on your state of wellbeing and preference. Turbosoles allow more ankle flexibility in the water and arguably a bit more finesse. I find them far more comfortable. However, if you have injured your ankles in the past or a have a trek to your divesite (in gear) then rockboots may be the way to go. Either way, it’s not too expensive of a retrofit should you feel the need down the road to switch, so don’t stress out about it too much.

One option for turbosoles is the “mexico mod” that adds some extra material in high-wear areas on the sock. It consists of three parts – toe reinforcement, heel reinforcement and a strip of material around the ankle. The toe and heel reinforcement have basically no downside, but the ankle makes it a bit of a hassle to get the turbosoles on. If you decide the cost is worth it for the durability increase try to get them to do the toe and heel without the ankle. These two areas are the highest wear and reinforcement is a good thing. Again, this is a fairly minor bit and it’s not too big of a deal either way.

If you have a buddy that like filming or you just like looking good, I encourage you to get an overlay that goes all the way down your arms in a color that’s not black. It will make you look better on camera – personally, I like blue, but you’re allowed to have your own favorite color. Red contrasts well with blue/green water (colors that look good together are opposite on a color wheel). The wheel suggests that pink would contrast well with green water, but nobody’s been brave enough to try it on a suit yet.

Undersuit selection is actually one of the more important bits of choosing a drysuit, especially a shell suit (like all of those I’ve discussed here). Though the suit keeps you dry (when it’s working) the undersuit is what keeps you warm, and that’s really all a drysuit is supposed to do. For cold water diving, you’re going to end up in a 400 gram undergarment like the DUI XM450 or the Santi Extreme 400 if you’re doing anything but sub-hour dives. Personally, I went with a 300 gram to start (the powerstretch 300 or the fourth element arctic are examples) which is nice because they’re quite flexible and when you’re a newer diver it will keep you plenty warm. Thinner undergarments also tend to be easier to learn to dive a drysuit on because they’re a bit easier to vent. I would encourage you to start with a similar undergarment and upgrade as you see fit. Undergarments will crush as you use them and despite their high cost are a “disposable” product that will have to be replaced; you’ll have to get two anyways, so start with a trainer rather than jumping straight to the big leagues and trying to save some money.

For GUE/DIR diving, you’ll want to stay away from suits that rely heavily on loft for warmth. These are easy to recognize because they’re poofy and big, like a mountaineering jacket. Typically for GUE/DIR, you will dive a suit with a minimum amount of gas in it, which won’t allow a poofy undersuit enough gas to fully “loft” and warm up. If you do get an undersuit like this and you dive it underlofted, you’ll be cold, which is sad because you spent three grand to be warm. Thinsulate or polarfleece only needs a little bit of air to insulate fully, so they’re the choice materials. All the undersuits I’ve named are made from kosher materials, so they’re a good place to start.

Other additions to increase your thermal comfort include heating vests and nice thermal base layers like bodyzor from waterproof. Both of these will significantly improve your comfort, especially if you’ve been diving your undersuit for a while and it’s a bit more “well loved” than it should be. Lamont has a stellar post on this, but his blog’s down, so hopefully he’ll get off his unemployed ass and fix that (please don’t ban me). Thermal concerns around here are similar to those in your neck of the woods, so it's will be a good read if it comes back up.

Ultimately, your choice of undergarments will depend on your personal tolerance to cold. Note that your tolerance to cold will go down as you dive more (longer dives, less movement – trust me on this one).

DUI hoods suck. Get a warmer 7mm or 10mm hood from (Waterproof and Fourth Element make good ones) or buy the mother of all hoods – the Otter Bay 12mm neoprene helmet. Not only will it keep you warm, but it can also probably protect you from small arms fire. They have an ugly logo, but they’re custom made and quite toasty.

The absolute best thing to do is to attend a DUI Dog Days rally and try suits out for yourself. There's one May 14-15 in Gloucester, MA (you can see all of them here). You get try suits out in the water, get measured by a pro for your suit, see if you fit stock suits/undergarments and generally have a blast.

Common alternatives to DUI suits include the Whites Fusion (a favorite of local board junkie TS&M), Diving Concepts suits and Santi Suits (a favorite of many in these parts). Though I’m a big fan of DUI suits, any drysuit is a big investment and it would benefit you, even if only for comparison’s sake, to check out some of the competitors.

Sorry that got kind of out of hand.
 
Wow KeesBL that was quite the answer!! It should be a sticky!

I wanted to chime in and reinforce one specific point: "Though I’m a big fan of DUI suits, any drysuit is a big investment and it would benefit you, even if only for comparison’s sake, to check out some of the competitors."

I wish I had done this. I've bought two drysuits in six months and the one I am using as my primary is my most recent acquisition, the TLS350. As a new drysuit diver (40 or so dives at this point) I have to agree - FOR ME - with those who say it's much easier to manage the bubble in a DUI. I went to DUI Dog Days with a friend with NO INTENTION of buying a suit (since I already had a brand new one) but after diving the DUI, ended up buying one. So the value of trying before buying can't be stressed enough.
 
Sorry that got kind of out of hand.

That was a very nice write-up :) Lots of good information.

I agree that DUI hoods suck - well, at least the skirt-less one I got does. I like my 7 mil Pinnacle merino hood - no zipper.

Henrik
 
Awesome writeup KeesBL!

ColinCB - there's quite an active DIR group in the PA/NJ area. Drop me a line and I'll hook you up with someone to dive with.
 
I will be purchasing a dry in the next few months and I'm looking for commentary.

First of all, I'll be diving non-tech/DIR for quite awhile before I am able to become tech certified. I am interested in reaching full cave certification. I dive in the chilly North East US, primarily MA, RI, PA, NJ, and CT. Water temps range from around 35-55, and rarely higher than that.

I've been looking at DUI suits and the TLS350 and 50/50 seem best fit. The TLS for its flexibility, but the 50/50 has warmer crushed neoprene bottoms.

Cave cut? It is necessity to get this cut? I'm not interested in destroying a $3,000 suit in only a few years. Not to mention the necessary waiver.

Zipseals, are they DIR or not? They seem useful especially with changing out seals quickly to avoid lost dives.

Anything else?

Thanks!

Keep in mind that crushed neoprene is more buoyant which has a negative effect on the trim when you have it on the bottom, you will need to compensate for that which can be difficult or
easy depending on how much lead you can move around.

Unless you are crawling on rocky bottom or bottom with zebra muscles all the time I would skip crushed neoprene. It's heavier, dries longer and does not really provide much warmth in return.

ZIP seals IMHO are expensive unnecessary item and they introduce an extra risk. If you get your zip seal open at depth that would mean a pretty terrible dry suit flood. This is especially dangerous if you do longer dives and you have an overhead - hard or soft like deco. Regular seals move the risk of ripped seal on the surface. If a regular seal is about to rip off it will likely do it on the surface when you put the suit on and stretch the seal. The zip seal can rip off at depth.

Convenience of replacing the seal quickly is an advantage but replacing a regular ripped seal is not really hard and might only take a half an hour and 15-20 bucks for a seal.

KeesBL mentioned that ring systems interfere with the valve manipulation - none of my friends ever mentioned that and I never felt it myself either- I use Si-tech. My friends use mostly Si-tech and DC systems. Some use Viking

When you order cave cut it is assumed that you know 100% what undergarment you are using in the situation that you are buying your suit for and you maintain pretty constant body weight :) The suit comes tight which helps when you need to often change your position to head down as it does not allow much air in the legs. But it also not versatile. If you cut it for 400g and then wear 200g it makes no sense.
 
I would echo katenptl, and say check out other brands. There's nothing "DIR" about DUI, and their suits sit at the highest price point in the industry.

If you intend to use the same dry suit to dive locally and to dive caves, get a laminate suit. You will not need the insulation of compressed neoprene in the caves, and it is a PITA to travel with (heavy, dries slowly).

Get an undergarment that will keep you warm. If that requires poof, buy poof. Cold is bad for decompression and bad for a working brain. A skilled diver will use the amount of gas in the dry suit that is needed to do what's most important -- if you're doing a bunch of up and downslopes in a cave, you want the suit squeezed. If you are doing open water diving, you have far more flexibility to add gas to the suit to loft an undergarment. But you do want something that will insulate well when wet. (Note: It is possible that the advice I just gave is not the current GUE party line; however, there is more DIR diving than GUE, and what active divers do and what is taught may also be two different things.)
 
Also when selecting the suit pay attention where the exhaust valve is located. It should be located on the outside of the shoulder, not on the bicep - you will have ot do funky moves to dump air, not on the wrist - the air will dump unintentionally when you manipulate the valves. Relocating the valve might cost you another 100-150 bucks unless you do it yourself.
 
I would echo katenptl, and say check out other brands. There's nothing "DIR" about DUI, and their suits sit at the highest price point in the industry.

That's questionable. Bare is catching up or has already caught up :) Actually when I compared how much my wife's signature CLX costed with a set of fins and gloves to how much my Bare trilam costed me with the same set and with adding pockets and fixing bare problems it was pretty much on par. And mine was a stock suit, not custom sized.

At the end she got a better suit.
 
I dive a Bare Trilam HD-Tech Dry with 2 Lg Zippered pockets installed at Bare and Suspender and love the suit My G/F has the same suit and feels the same. When I was purchasing my suit ultimately came down the the DUI TLS350and the Bare. In the end I liked the tougher looking exterior of the Bare, Also bare comes with the Heavy duty wrist/neck seals andKevlar padding for the knee's where at DUI it was Extra plus Not that I was resticted to a budget but I saved almost 1,000. In the end for me the Suits/Companies are both good Bare has a lifetime warranty on seams and workmanship where DUI only has seven. Plus at the time There were more complaints about DUI's Lasting then Bare's but again personal experince's aer different and everyone will have some sort of problem not everyone complains about it so it can be misconstrued. Plus bare offers a lot of in between sizes so less chance of having to get a full customized suit. I like th Tri-lam die to it has a little exptra room not as tight fitting as a neoprene or the 50/50 Which is nice cause I dive my suit year round. So when it's cold I will wear both my Fourth Element Arctics/XT250's together and stay nice and warm in waters around 38F for my last dive was 35min. Or in summer when it warms up and surface temps are around 75F I will wear just my XT250, unless going deep then I wear my Arctic's. Anything less than 70 I wear Arctic's anything below 50F I will wear both.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom