Spearguns: Sawed-Off Magnum XHD

[myz113]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone had any input on JBL Spearguns as to AB Biller spearguns. I am interested in the JBL Sawed-Off Magnum but both the 'woody' and the standard float. I was wondering if the XHD did because it has 3 slings instead of 2 and is made of a higher quality metal. I really want a speargun that doesn't float so then if I need to set it down to handle the fish, I don't have to worry about it floating up next to me. Thanks for any input.


Myers.

[myz113]

Now that I am looking at old spearfishing posts, I see that a Riffe is pretty nice gun. They look really well made compared to the JBL woodies and the AB Biller looks about in the middle. Keep in mind I'm only 16 so I don't want to pay much over $250. I live in Venice, FL, West coast 60 miles south of Tampa and I visit the keys a few times a year. I want to spear Hogfish, snapper and triggerfish but if I see a nice grouper I'm not hesitating. Im looking for a gun that can penetrate larger fish and shoot approx 15 feet+ but can be reloaded easily for going after snapper, hogfish ect. I was thinking maybe a 3 band gun if I need the power, and only loading 1 or 2 for smaller fish. Im thinking 44-52 inches, what do you say? I don't think loading will be much of an issue under 52" but I don't want to waste my time putting all my force into a big gun for smaller fish.

[Bob3]

I keep a JBL sawed off magnum down in the Keys for when I'm hiding out down there, it's going to float though.
It's been good enough to handle most anything that I've wanted to put on the dinner table. It has 3 bands, by the way.
Biller's are decent guns for the money too, but neither can be compared to a Riffe. The metal ones are a tad cheaper than the wood.
Have you taken a look on http://www.spearboard.com?

[Dryglove]

If you want a high quality gun that doesnt float check out the Paulope Classic at http://www.slinginsteel.com/classic.html#paulope Kevin is also very active on the spearboard and a great guy to deal with.

[zeN||]

Now why do you want a gun that doesn't float; an aluminum gun wears your wrist out, holding it up for your shot, you can always weight it just enough to make it neutrally buoyant so it doesn't shoot to the top zeN

[DA Aquamaster]

Ideally a speargun will be near neutral to very slightly negative with the shaft loaded and positively bouyant when the shaft has been shot.

When you shoot a fish, pull it in and release the gun, the gun will float up above you and take the slack line with it. This keeps the gun and the line out of your way while getting the fish from the spear to the stringer. This goes a long way toward preventing any tangles when spearing with scuba where you remain on the bottom.

My all time favorite rock and reef gun is the Scubapro Panther which came in both 36 and 48 inch lenghts. The same guns are still made by Bandito as there upper end guns and sell for around $200-$250.

The stock is composite with a black non glare finish and is very durable. The saftey is positive and very quiet to release and the gun has a very nice trigger pull. It is a rear handle gun with a short stock for cocking and has an open muzzle which makes it easy to load (But you need to be careful not to load it with the retainer for the spear behind the muzzle.) It comes standard with 2 bands but will easily accomodate 3 bands and you can step up a size diameter wise without worrying about breaking the gun.

They are also the most accurate guns I have ever shot and they point very well.

I have also considered a Woody version of the Sawed Off Magnum as it has the same bouyancy traits and the overall size is about right. The quality seems to be a little better than the standard JBL gun and the wood looks nice.

Riffe guns are exceptional and I'd love to have one, but the spousal unit would probably shoot me with it if she ever found out what it costs.

[Genesis]

When shooting a fish, the FIRST thing you do is subdue the fish. DO NOT attach the gun to you at this point in any way. This is an extremely important safety point, because a large fish can (and sometimes will) take off for the bottom at Warp 9 (bad) or for the surface (a LOT worse!) In extremis you must be prepared to lose the gun if you are lineshafting with the line attached to the gun.

For this reason some shooters will rig up a way to hold the line instead of having it attached to the gun (FredT has described this as a "riding rig") Don't mistake a releasable clip on the gun for this - with a really big fish going nuts you won't be able to release it or, in many cases, even get to it.

Once the fish is subdued (sounds silly for small fish, but it definitely isn't for larger ones!) slip your hand through the slings. You now have the gun secured; it will float up over your head.

String the fish and then remove the spear.

You now know where the gun is, and reloading is a snap.

If your shooting line is getting tangled during all of this, work on your technique and situational awareness. It should be a non-issue.

I like the Riffe's myself (the C2x is a nearly perfect reef and wreck gun IMHO) but the JBL Woody series are also credible guns. They just don't have the power of the Riffe series.

[100days-a-year]

Riffes suck as reef guns as do all the other blue water guns.The muzzle on a Riffe is open and the shaft is retained by the line slowing down reloading considerably.The closed track option is even worse as it will not work if the shaft gets a little bent(easy to do fighting a fish)I love Billers but for the $ you are asking JBL is the only choice.Another consideration is parts and supplies that no one mentioned and are rarely available for any makes other than the Sea Hornet/Billers,the JBLs and Riffes.They are available and inexpensive in the case of JBL.Go to spearboard and do some searches.The Sea Hornet /SS/Billers are used by probly 90% of these guys and they include some of the best spearfishermen in the world.The commercial industry in Florida is almost all the same ABB/SS and Sea Hornet.The best spearfisherman I know uses a 450XHD.

[Genesis]

are all basically the same gun with some differences in how the line is rogged.

JBL has their own trigger mechanisms and muzzles, and Riffe has a third.

Then you get into the exotics (e.g. Wong), which I won't go into as they're in the nosebleed range in pricing.

The Riffe is not the gun for you if you want to freeshaft, as the line is the front shaft guide. But it is not significantly slower to reload than a JBL or Biller once you get the hang of it as a lineshafting gun. It is HARDER to reload, in that you probably want to chest load it, but that's how come it has more "oomph" than the JBL!

I own a JBL and a Riffe, and shoot both. For wrecks and reefs I prefer the C2x over the JBL; my JBL is a "backup" gun.

If there's a difference in reload times its so small (a few seconds) as to be irrelavent to production when hunting. I used to find the Riffe more difficult to load but a couple dozen dives with it changed my perspective on that issue.

SS guns are nice, but IMHO overpriced, at least in "commercial" trim (the only ones I think are really nice.) They make Riffe's look inexpensive side-by-side and I've yet to have someone offer me one to shoot so I can evaluate it side-by-side with my C2x to see if the hype is worth it. Maybe some day someone will show up on my boat with one of the SS Commercials and let me have a dive or two with it, so I can get some shooting experience with one.

The regular SS guns don't appear much (if any) different than a Sea Hornet, and in that regard they are IMHO WAY overrated. I've shot the genre (the Billers and Sea Hornets are essentially the same gun) and they're ok, but nothing special - kinda like the JBLs.

The Riffe C3x is, IMHO, too long for a reef gun. I own one and its a nice "short" bluewater gun, but its swing time is just too slow around reefs and wrecks. I don't use it often, as I'm usually spearing aronud wrecks and its just too much gun for the application. The C2x isn't much shorter physically, but "feels" MUCH shorter and easier to maneuver in the water.

Between the JBLs, Sea Hornets and Billers (and SS guns other than the Commercial Series), all of which are two-piece (wood) guns, I prefer the Riffe (whcih is a one-piece gun.) You're not dependant on a center section (which holds the trigger assembly) to stay together; the Riffe is a solid piece of wood routed for the trigger assembly.

A Riffe C2x can be had for just over $300. The JBL will be considerably cheaper. Spare shafts and such for the JBL will cost less as well. If you get the JBL, consider powering up one size on the bands (go either one size "wider" if it will fit in the muzzle, or one inch shorter if not); I found the stock bands on the JBLs to be pretty anemic. THe only caution with this is that the ultimate strength of the JBL mechanism isn't in the same class as the Riffe.

So if the $250 limit is "real", then the JBL isn't a bad choice. If its a bit "soft", then look at the C2x. If you want something in the "commercial" line (e.g. quick line/free shaft switching, etc) look at the SS commercials, but bring your checkbook 'cause you're gonna need it. If you're considering an SS gun other than a commercial, you're basically buying a Biller/Sea Hornet, and is in the same class as the JBL.

All IMHO of course.

[myz113]

Thanks for all your input, so the C-2S is a little over $300 and the Sawed off Magnum XHD is a little over $200, For the extra $100, I think the riffe looks far superior and the bouyancy thing is not much of an issue anymore as I see what you all are talking about. How many of you think the Riffe would be a much better buy for the 100 bucks, I can always mow a few extra lawns...

PS- Anyone got a Riffe C-2S for sale:D ...

Oh yea, and what is a 'Hawaiian Flopper'?(model C-2X)

[Genesis]

I personally don't care for ANY of the Riffe's!

What I did was took a standard 6mm tip and drilled then tapped it for the larger threads. I use a "lockdown" spinner tri-cut speartip, as its faster and easier to get out of a fish.

[100days-a-year]

I feel your pain about the Riffe tips.I watched in horror as a 'cuda took a piece of grouper with a $90 ice pick tip.I'd like to see anyone reload a Riffe as fast as a JBL or SS/Biller.I can reload over twice as fast as the best of the Riffe owners I've dove with. The commercial guys here occasionally reload 15-20 times in a dive to 80' and are much faster than me.EBAY may be the ticket if you have to have a specific gun that's normally outta your price range.Pawn shops close to docks and bars can get you some good deals 2.JBLs at Leisure Pro are usually the best deals new.Shafts run from $20-30 and tips $10-20.SS makes the best bands I've used .I have 5/8 and 3/4 that are over a year old.Have not had one pop yet.They run ~$20.Look up FredTs posts on trigger mechanisms and what and why he likes each.

[Genesis]

is not much slower if you're both lineshafting. Besides, unless you stone every fish with every shot you make (and those who say they do are lying) you're spending more time finishing, stringing or bagging then you are reloading. Does an extra 5 seconds in reloading matter? I don't think it does, especially given the other trade-offs.

Now perhaps if you're shooting stupid fish (e.g. hogs) you might have an easy time of it. Here we don't have any hogfish; we shoot snapper, grouper and AJs, mostly, with a few Ling thrown in for good measure. Most of the guys I spear with don't shoot trigger, as there's not enough meat on them to make it worth it. A few will waste a shot on a good flounder, but most will just stab him with the point instead. The AJs and Ling can be life-threatening if mishandled, quite literally. I'm far more interested in the accuracy and power of my shot than the reload speed; if the AJs are around I would rather have one big fish than 4 snapper, although I'll certainly take both if they are there for the taking :) A lot of shots here have to be taken at longer ranges (10'+) rather than the 4-6' range in which nearly any gun will do the job, simply as the fish around here know what a speargun is and tend to be rather wary of el-spearo closing in on them.

Yeah, I can load the JBL faster. But I've also had the JBL, which is the same size as my C2, fail to penetrate fish that the Riffe goes all the way through. There is a major difference in power between the two guns, even though I've powered UP the JBL one level! It STILL doesn't compare to the Riffe's stopping power.

The Riffe is easy to reload if you do it right. Hold the gun at the muzzle end with your hand wrapped around the muzzle. Make sure the bands are on the right side (top) of the gun. Insert the spear under your hand in the track, with the line going through your wrapped hand around the barrel. Slide down and lock it in the trigger. You now have the line right next to the holddown tab - wrap it around the tab, then do the two wraps on the posts and you're done. Cock the bands and shoot. Wrapping the line doesn't take more than 3 or 4 seconds; its no slower than any other multi-wrap gun and is easier than many, as the last wrap is against the shock cord and you can easily pull it far enough to get over the tab at the rear of the gun. The C3 series are harder to load than the C2, simply because its a longer gun. I can reset the spear in the trigger and wrap the line in under 10 seconds unless I manage to foul myself in the line or something similarly stupid. How much faster than that is material? Band load time is not related to the gun; its related to the number of bands you load, how strong they are, and how strong YOU are.

The "commercial" SS guns have only one line loop, which is obviously faster, as there is no wrap. They also tend to load only one band. And if you're freeshafting, then obviously you beat ANY line gun's reload, as you don't have to screw with the line.

If you're freeshafting, then you definitely want to be thinking about a different gun, as the Riffe simply isn't set up for that. Yeah you can do it (see below) but you won't be as productive as you will with a gun made for that prupose.

In terms of loading the bands, there is a difference - the Riffe is harder! Well, heh, guess what - you get out what you put in with a band gun, no two ways around it. So if you want the power, you have to put the power in. Thus, its harder to cock. I CAN hip-load my C2 but its not any fun. The C3 pretty much has to be chest-loaded, at least for guys like me. Maybe "The Terminator" can hip load that cannon, but I can't - at least not if I want to do it more than once or twice a dive. I usually shoot three bands on the Riffe, but will sometimes depower and shoot only two if I'm in confined quarters. I could probably power up the Riffe a notch and shoot ONE band some of the time, never needing more than two, but my arms and chest would protest at the end of the day from the abuse they'd take in loading, so I don't.

Nothing is worse than hitting a nice AJ dead in the brainpan and having the spear fail to penetrate; too much power is better than too little.

You CAN freeshaft a Riffe, by the way. The trick is loading it and cocking the bands. Once loaded the shaft won't go anywhere. When fired, it won't go nuts either. Try it sometime - I have. If you need you can use a cut-off snorkel keeper as a "hold-down" until you have the gun loaded, or just shoot through it - it won't hang up. The big issue is getting in the water and down with the gun unloaded; that's what the snorkel keeper is for, to keep the front of the spear in the groove until you load the bands.

The problem with freeshafting a Riffe is more in the spear and line; you pretty much can't switch modes with one, since the line goes on the shark fin tab and is crimped. Therefore, unlike some other guns where you have a slider and can unclip from it, that simply isn't happening with the Riffe. That's where the PITA factor comes in. Switch-hitting is thus simply not realistic, which does limit your options, and all-in-all the Riffe is really designed to be a line gun all the time.

As I said I own both a JBL Woody Sawed-Off Magnum and a Riffe C2 (and C3); I prefer shooting the Riffe C2 around reefs and wrecks to the JBL.

[captain]

I drilled a 1/4" hole at each end of the tube of my old Sawed Off Magnum so the tube would flood and it wouldn't float. I don't know if this will work on newer guns.

Captain

[Genesis]

But it won't work on Woody's! :)

[FredT]

The XHD trigger is a good one. Avoid the other if you intend to do any heavy use.

The nice thing about the JBLs is the ease of "upgrading" them.

A sawed off magnum can turn into a 450 (or 720) magnum with a tube and shaft change. Roughly a 15 minute job if you make your won tube. Swimming pool supply stores carry the same aluminum tube as part of a skimmer net, or you can put a stainless one on if you want it not to float (Kilsby industrial tube supply). The stainless tube will NOT bend or buckle no mater how heavily you band it.

BTW Bandito made a wonderful plastic wingless front end for very few $s that replaces the winged one the smaller JBLs come with and works well with a riding rig.

FT