New scuba tank standards

[D M I]

Hello

I was informed today that beginning next year or shortly there after all scuba bottles will be required to have along with the visual inspector sticker the (Air, compressed UN 1002) sticker as well. These stickers are now only seen on cb air bottles, but as expected changes are coming. What does this mean for the dive shop owner well, he'l be required to meet new goverment standards befor he can touch your tank.

Cheers

D M I

[pufferfish]

D M I once bubbled...
Hello

I was informed today that beginning next year or shortly there after all scuba bottles will be required to have along with the visual inspector sticker the (Air, compressed UN 1002) sticker as well. These stickers are now only seen on cb air bottles, but as expected changes are coming. What does this mean for the dive shop owner well, he'l be required to meet new goverment standards befor he can touch your tank.

Cheers
D M I

So you see DMI the scenerio you pointed out in the thread 'where is the industry headed' is coming to fruition. Insurance companies and government agencies are going to dictate the terms and only those technicians who have taken real courses by accredited agencies and continue to upgrade their knowledge and skills will have access to my tank or your reg. In the end we will likely end up with far fewer places to take our gear to for service but with the benefit being much higher quality service by reputable technicians who truly know what they are doing. This can only be good as I see it. The smart shops and technicians will see these changes coming and upgrade ahead of time. So DMI when are you going to open up NOT a scuba shop but a scuba repair depot that will offer good high quality service?

What requirements will a tank inspector have to meet to be able to apply this new sticker? Hopefully a lot more than the no training I see around the GTA these days.

[D M I]

Hi

Very well stated indeed puffer fish, and once again I must with great pride say that my technical service has always been available to specific dive shops and some members of the elite society of Toronto who insist on the very best in professional diving equipment servicing. I don't know were dive shop owners will end up with this new implementation of standards but I do no that one day, Hydro testing/visual inspections and transportation of high pressure cylinders will be strictly controlled. No more will you see the old bread vans with bent axles over loaded with 50 tanks + gear on there way to centennial beach.

Happy diving


D M I

[Tom R]

Does anyone know the impact of this? I give you a few examples what it could possibly mean;

All and I mean All, Charter boat operators/owners, Scuba Instructors/Ass Instructors and DM's, Store Operators/Owners, employees of any of the above will have to meet at very least the following.

Qualifed and current in Hazmat;
Qualified and current in Transportation of dangerous goods;
Use of a commercial grade vechicle with proper markings;
Maintain logs and manifests when tranporting the tanks;
Submitt to random drug testing; and
Indepth Knowledge of all emergancy numbers.

So divers will be required to fill at the hazmat approved fill stations and have no more than 40 psi in the tanks while tranporting them. This would translate into if you have your own fill station in your garage, it would be illegal to fill them and bring them to the store for top offs.

The government of Canada views commerical operations as;

If the customer feels in anyway that they are being charged anything for the service, So chipping in for gas, buying the DM a coffee, would qualify you as a commerical operation.

In closing it is the owner of the tank(s) that have to provide proof training before they can pick up the sticker(s) one for each tank at the Ministry of Transportation, and not the responsiblity of the dive store/fill station.

Tom

[Mark L]

Tom R once bubbled...
Does anyone know the impact of this? I give you a few examples what it could possibly mean;

All and I mean All, Charter boat operators/owners, Scuba Instructors/Ass Instructors and DM's, Store Operators/Owners, employees of any of the above will have to meet at very least the following.

Qualifed and current in Hazmat;
Qualified and current in Transportation of dangerous goods;
Use of a commercial grade vechicle with proper markings;
Maintain logs and manifests when tranporting the tanks;
Submitt to random drug testing; and
Indepth Knowledge of all emergancy numbers.

So divers will be required to fill at the hazmat approved fill stations and have no more than 40 psi in the tanks while tranporting them. This would translate into if you have your own fill station in your garage, it would be illegal to fill them and bring them to the store for top offs.

The government of Canada views commerical operations as;

If the customer feels in anyway that they are being charged anything for the service, So chipping in for gas, buying the DM a coffee, would qualify you as a commerical operation.

In closing it is the owner of the tank(s) that have to provide proof training before they can pick up the sticker(s) one for each tank at the Ministry of Transportation, and not the responsiblity of the dive store/fill station.

Tom

Gees,
I will have to think about that the next time I get my BBQ tank filled. It already has the sticker though.....I guess thats what the personal use exemption is for.
---what if you don't inhale??? Does the drug test still apply?

LOL
:D

[Tom R]

Providing your carring only your BBQ tank and not your buddies whom you may be pitching in for gas, coffee and you will be fine.

[D M I]

Hello Tom

The Transportation of dangerous goods act has been in place for 20 years, its just that the diving industry choosed to ignore it, and Hazmat is to small. If the government is going to now enforce these issues there is not a hell of lot any one of use can do about it. lets face it, the diving industry is dead for now and it realy isn't a government concern, it just when you put high pressure nitrox filled cylinders in the warn trunk of your car and go driving down the highway thats a concern. Most commercial facilities must meet stringent government requirements before they can deliver/transport gas supplies so shouldn't we its a matter of safety compliance for all.


D M I;)

[bwerb]

the Canadian government can't even figure out how to register guns correctly for a billion dollars or so...no one in government is going to care in the slightest about transportation of scuba tanks...most government officials couldn't identify a scuba tank when given a choice between it, a banana and an envelope filled with cash.

Much ado about nothing.

[D M I]

I hope your right banana peel, I hope you right.

D M I

[cobaltbabe]

Having the tanks inspected and properly maintained and labelled is a good thing. I am only recently certified in inspections but during the course I saw some of the evidence of what can happen when tanks are transported incorrectly or not looked after. Pretty scary. I also learned that if TC stops a vehicle, be it a commercial or a personal vehicle with a large amount of tanks improperly secured and not carrying a dangerous goods sign the driver/organization can be fined $25,000. for the vehicle and not having the proper documentation and an additional $25,000 for each tank. Sorry folks but if there is an accident and there are tanks laying all over the place and not labelled and I am an emergency response person, I for one want to know what the heck is in those tanks. Yes I am aware that this is going to hurt the industry, how many want to go through the training, not many, but for safety sake isn't it better to air on the side of caution. This is just my opinion only.

[bwerb]

Here's one of my TC favorites...fire extinguishers. When we ship fire extinguishers we have to ensure that the transport vehicle has the right placards for transporting a "harzardous good". Right...like when the truck is on fire, the extinguishers are going to make the situation worse...hahaha. The pressurization in portable extinguishers is miniscule anyhow, worst case scenario...a fire leads to a dry chemical fire extinguisher exploding extinguishing powder on the fire. ;) Of course I'm oversimplifying it but sometimes the Canadian government seems to be much more concerned with creating employment instead of employing common sense.

[cobaltbabe]

if one of those extinguishers goes off, holy you know what. Think about 3000 psi going off and blowing a hole down a busy street. Better duck fast. :rolleyes:

[bwerb]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...
if one of those extinguishers goes off, holy you know what. Think about 3000 psi going off and blowing a hole down a busy street. Better duck fast. :rolleyes:

They aren't filled to anywhere close to 3000 PSI. The one I just checked in my office shows cylinder tested to 525psi with 325psi as an overcharged unit...so around perhaps 250 to 300psi vs a "pony bottle" charged to 3000 in the same size range.

Most "home" portable extinguishers up to a 4A60BC size have plastic zytel valves.

I've seen the damage a fully charged scuba tank can do when it explodes but I don't think a portable fire extinguisher is anywhere in the same ballpark.

[D M I]

Wow! weve gone from properly labeling and transporting scuba tanks to kicking fire extinguishers around, thats what I love about this copy and paste discussion board no consistency.

D M I

Your new sticker link is below

[cobaltbabe]

They aren't at the same PSI but I am sure they would rattle your bones never the less.

[bwerb]

D M I once bubbled...
Wow! weve gone from properly labeling and transporting scuba tanks to kicking fire extinguishers around, thats what I love about this copy and paste discussion board no consistency.

D M I

Your new sticker link is below

Glad you like it D M I, feel free to use the sarcasm icon next time you post.:D I've conveniently labeled my replies below to ensure the correct conversational flow can continue.

Back on topic...so...reading the label you've posted it's good for compressed air. Has TC figured out if we will require separate labels for Nitrox, Tri-mix and O2 deco bottles?


Off-topic hijack continues...

And hey Marie...we need to find a large open field and a stack of shipping pallets upon which to place a household extinguisher to test our theory of the explosive potential of a fully charged extinguisher when exposed to high heat. Next time you are out to BC, I'm sure we can find a suitable location...:D :boom:

[cobaltbabe]

bwerb once bubbled...


And hey Marie...we need to find a large open field and a stack of shipping pallets upon which to place a household extinguisher to test our theory of the explosive potential of a fully charged extinguisher when exposed to high heat. Next time you are out to BC, I'm sure we can find a suitable location...:D :boom:

Sounds like a blast Brian. I would like to get out your way in the next year or so. :)

[Butch103]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...
They aren't at the same PSI but I am sure they would rattle your bones never the less. .....

...........the blast would be too bad. I have had one (plastic valve) fall over and break. Lots of fire retardant shooting around, but no real "blast" or anything too exciting.

Tim

[Tom R]

Looks like I will return the one I "borrowed" for testing purposes now ;-0

Tom

[divedude]

Tom R once bubbled...

So divers will be required to fill at the hazmat approved fill stations and have no more than 40 psi in the tanks while tranporting them. This would translate into if you have your own fill station in your garage, it would be illegal to fill them and bring them to the store for top offs.

Tom

I guess because I'm in the business of hauling dangerous goods I'll kick my 2 cents in:
Page 61, first paragraft of the TDG regulations reads.

Dangerous goods are exempt from regulations if they are:
1, Being transported for personal use.
This exemption allows up to 30kgs per package and up to 150kg's per vehicle.

So figure out how much compressed air weighs and figure out how many tanks you can put in your car or truck.

The 150kg's you are allowed is the product inside the tank ONLY not how much the tank weighs.

[jrtonkin]

I actually did the math for what Divedude just posted...

Works out to about 800 (yes, 8 hundred) cubic feet per
cylinder, or 4000 cubic feet per vehicle.

So while you and your car are probably fine, a mid-sized
dive boat might just fall under that clause (Approx 50 regular
cyliners)... All depending on what exactly constitutes a
commercial operation.

Jamie

[Tom R]

The minute some one is under the assumption that they have paid for a service, that includes but is not limited to pitching in for gas etc. If they wanted to get sticky buying the driver a coffee.

Tom

[D M I]

Hello

Thats a nice theory for moral at best Diverdude, to bad it won't stand.

D M I

[Mark L]

D M I once bubbled...
Hello

Thats a nice theory for moral at best Diverdude, to bad it won't stand.

D M I
Why would the personal use exemption not apply?? That's why its in the regs.

Your mission DMI should you choose to accept it is........to find the correct number for Nitrox and Trimix, since UN 1002 is only for compressed air containing up to 23.5% oxygen. PM me if you need some help.;)

[Dan MacKay]

D M I once bubbled...
Hello

I was informed today that beginning next year or shortly there after all scuba bottles will be required to have along with the visual inspector sticker the (Air, compressed UN 1002) sticker as well. These stickers are now only seen on cb air bottles, but as expected changes are coming. What does this mean for the dive shop owner well, he'l be required to meet new goverment standards befor he can touch your tank.

Cheers

D M I

I know that I am going to regret this but...who informed you? And what new goverment standards? Seeing as how the new year is just around the corner I have yet to receive direction from any goverment agency on any of this. Mayhaps we are just so far out of Kingston that we have been over looked. It wouldn't be the first time.

Dan

Dan

[divedude]

D M I once bubbled...
Hello

Thats a nice theory for moral at best Diverdude, to bad it won't stand.

D M I

O But it will..........;)

Twenty years of dealing with TDG regulations.
For instance tonight I hauled 59,580lbs of compressed gas
NOT regulated by TDG.

[D M I]

Interested parties

You'll get the information as it is implemented by the ministry, just as dive boat operators of certain size and tonage were required to have there boats inspected in the last two years because 50% of the boats that were out doing charters were unseaworthy and dangerous. Ministry employees are slow workers, but be assured you'll be hearing more and will be required to act on this topic in the coming year.

D M I

[D M I]

g

[Dan MacKay]

D M I once bubbled...
Interested parties

You'll get the information as it is implemented by the ministry, just as dive boat operators of certain size and tonage were required to have there boats inspected in the last two years because 50% of the boats that were out doing charters were unseaworthy and dangerous. Ministry employees are slow workers, but be assured you'll be hearing more and will be required to act on this topic in the coming year.

D M I

Here we go again. Darn I knew this was going to happen. Once again DMI you have learned to play dodge ball like the Puffer used to. Who informed you and where are the goverment standards posted. Rarely does the goverment move in these areas with out consultation with the market place and currently the discussions are ongoing with the fishing charter association that has a far larger vested interest in this than the dive charter operators.

So DMI instead of horse hockey name names and places. Who told you and where did you find the statistic that 50% of dive charters are unsafe and by what criteria do you measure unsafe?

Safe dives,

Dan

[jrtonkin]

Hmmm... That brings up an interesting potential complication,
does that mean you can't take a non-empty cylinder in a taxi?

Could be an issue for those of us who don't own cars.

There's been a couple of times when I've rented gear locally,
and gotten a ride to/from the site with friends, but we got
back after the shop was closed, so I had to take my tanks
back the next day.

Jamie

[divedude]

D M I once bubbled...
Interested parties

You'll get the information as it is implemented by the ministry, just as dive boat operators of certain size and tonage were required to have there boats inspected in the last two years because 50% of the boats that were out doing charters were unseaworthy and dangerous. Ministry employees are slow workers, but be assured you'll be hearing more and will be required to act on this topic in the coming year.

D M I
Were did you get a figure like that????? 50%!!!!
I'm starting to think you are a trouble maker.

Can you give me one instance, just one were a dive boat has been shut down by Transport Canada because they were unseaworthy and dangerous. include all of Canada not just Ontario. Come on Mister 50% give me just one.

People on this board who don't know anything about boats might think twice about going on a charter because of guys like you who spout off with figures with no facts to back them up

Maybe we should send Transport Canada down to see you and make sure "You" are up to standard.
Do you have a "Master minor waters" you do need one even in your small boat if you take money for service, I'll bet you don't.
If you say you do, back it up with your licence #
I'll give mine CDN-105873M

[DivingGal]

D M I once bubbled...
[B... were required to have there boats inspected in the last two years because 50% of the boats that were out doing charters were unseaworthy and dangerous.... [/B]

Please if you're going to throw out statistics, provide the proof behind them!

To state something like this, will have some thinking that a significant number of the charters out there are unsafe.

I don't believe this for a moment. Mind you the only proof I can offer to this, is observing for myself certificates allowing the vessels to be on the water on the charters that I've been out with since I've been diving. I would hazzard a guess, that most my my dive buddies do the same.

[D M I]

Hello


Wow! Have I hit the nail or the thumb. Diver lady has asked me to not post or respond to any more sensitve issues on this board . so I will respect her wishes and only add or respond to positive threads that enhance the excitement and beaty of scuba diving. To Big Jim, I'm impressed with your qualifications your in a class of your own buddy, Unfortinetly I have to leave this issue closed.

D M I:out:

[wetman]

Why anyone worries about stuff like this is beyond me. Worry about it when you hear from reliable sources. And to post artificially inflated stats in an industry you apparently are part of is rather poor business practice i'd think. IF you run a charter service i'd think you'd want to make as many friends here as possible to increase your business. Doesn't seem to be the case though.

steve

[bottom_sucker]

I sat down last night and did some limited research into this, here's the results.

From “Transporting Dangerous Goods By Truck” published by the Canadian Trucking Alliance, 3rd printing revised as of September 2002.

Definitions
MoC - Means of Containment – a container or packaging, or any part of a means of transport that is or may be used to contain goods.
Small MoC – has a water capacity less than or equal to 450 litres.
Placard – a safety mark that is visible and legible, made of a durable and weather-resistant material, and is of a specified colour. Its shape is a square on point with each side measuring at lest 250 mm (10 in) in length with a line running 12.5 mm inside the edge.
Label – a safety mark that is visible and legible, made of a durable and weather-resistant material, and is of a specified colour. Its shape is a square on point with each side measuring at lest 100 mm (4 in) in length with a line running 5 mm inside the edge.
Carrier – a person (an individual, corporation, or any other person carrying on a business) who, whether or not for hire or reward, has possession of goods while they are in transport.
ERAP – Emergency Response Assistance Plan, explains actions to take or avoid in event of spill.

Chapter 14 – Special Requirements
14.12 The documentation, placarding and training requirements do not apply to UN1001, UN1002, UN1006, UN1060, UN1072, and UN1978 if the dangerous goods:
· Are in no more than 5 small MoC;
· Gross mass is less than 500 kg; and
· The labels can be seen from outside the vehicle

From Schedule 1
UN Number UN1002
Description AIR, COMPRESSED, with not more than 23.5 per cent oxygen, by volume
Class 2.2 Primary class 2 indicates gases
Special Provision 42 (see below)
Limited Quantity Index 0.125 litres (see below)
ERAP Index None
Marine Pollutant No

Special Provision #42
Part 3, Documentation, the placarding requirements in Part 4,Dangerous Goods Safety Marks, and part 6, Training, do not apply to transporting these dangerous goods on a road vehicle solely on land if
(a) the dangerous goods are contained in no more than 5 small means of containment;
(b) the dangerous goods have a gross mass less than or equal to 500 kg; and
(c) the labels displayed on the means of containment can be seen from outside the road vehicle.
UN1001, UN1002, UN1006, UN1060, UN1072, UN1978

Limited Quantities Exemption
Limited Quantities are dangerous goods that are shipped in small packages, and are therefore considered less dangerous. A quantity of dangerous goods is considered to be a limited quantity if:
· the innermost containers do not exceed the quantity specified in column 6 of schedule 1
· the weight of each small MoC and its contents do not exceed 30 kg.
Limited Quantities are exempt from most of the requirements except for labeling.

Label for non-flammable, non-toxic gas is green background, class 2, with bottle on top half of label.

So, in closing and this is only my opinion!!!!!
You are okay transporting 5 or less of your own tanks, but maybe for CYA aspect you should get a class 2 label on your tanks and transport them in open view (not car trunk). I'm attaching the label as example only, not official one.

And you can always go to www.tc.gc.ca and look for yourself.

Have fun diving, let's not panic yet on 'Scuba Tanks as Dangerous Goods' please.

Dave

[diverlady]

D M I once bubbled...
Hello


Wow! Have I hit the nail or the thumb. Diver lady has asked me to not post or respond to any more sensitve issues on this board . so I will respect her wishes and only add or respond to positive threads that enhance the excitement and beaty of scuba diving.
D M I:out:

Just to clarify a bit. I suggested Frank/Rick limit his business-connected profile, that being DMI, to more positive commentary on the Board and perhaps create a separate profile (without business connections) to voice/vent his frustrations. I'm not suggesting in any way that people behind the DMI name refrain from participating in any threads that capture their interest.

Everyone on this Board should be considered a potential client by ALL dive business owners here and I think that while diversity of opinion is what makes for interesting and lively exchanges, I would hate to see anyone's business endeavours suffer due to any hot-tempered, spur of the moment remarks.

Diverlady

[Boogie711]

it's a violation of the Scubaboard Terms of Service, and if discovered, both ID's will get banned.

As they should be.

If he has something to say, say it. If it's not credible, he'll get outed on it. His call.

[diverlady]

Well, it was just a suggestion. One profile for the "business" one for the "man" type of thing. There is more than one person behind the DMI business so one (calm) guy attached to the business and the other one to a different profile wouldn't be in violation of the rules. I'm not sure which guy does the majority of the posting.

Take it or leave it. I was just clarifying that I was not trying to curb anyone's participation on the Board. But I wasn't trying to encourage any rule-breaking either.

Diverlady

[scubasean]

D M I once bubbled...
Hello


Wow! Have I hit the nail or the thumb. Diver lady has asked me to not post or respond to any more sensitve issues on this board . so I will respect her wishes and only add or respond to positive threads that enhance the excitement and beaty of scuba diving. To Big Jim, I'm impressed with your qualifications your in a class of your own buddy, Unfortinetly I have to leave this issue closed.

D M I:out:

It is rather entertaining how you ducked those questions....twice. :)

[diverlady]

scubasean once bubbled...


It is rather entertaining how you ducked those questions....twice. :)


I guess that's my fault!! Sorry about providing that convenient "out"!

Diverlady

[Butch103]

....guess with all that time on your hands in the evening, what the hell eh????

As for the rest of you .........go eat turkey and have a nice thanksgiving....;) :D

[Kevin R]

I swore I'd stay out of it, but I couldn't resist......


I heard this stat on the radio last week.



47% of all statistics are made up on the spot. ;)


Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Kevin


P.S. For those of you about to jump on your keyboards, that was a funny. Now go diving and enjoy yourself.

[Groundhog246]

bottom_sucker once bubbled...
So, in closing and this is only my opinion!!!!!
You are okay transporting 5 or less of your own tanks, but maybe for CYA aspect you should get a class 2 label on your tanks and transport them in open view (not car trunk). I'm attaching the label as example only, not official one.
Thanks for some clarity. There's still the personal exemption clause, previously mentioned. I carry 6 tanks most of the time (we've three divers and even if one stays home, an full tank at home isn't very useful). Not sure how I'd carry it in view. Build a rack on the roof? I think that's more in line with a pick up or flat bed with a couple of cylinders (say a oxyacetylene welding kit) fastened in back. I don't think the back window of your car would be considered open view.
As it happens I did apply placards to my dive gear trailer. I see by the regs, they're not large enough. Will have to remedy that next spring.