OMS why all the flames? [Archive]

nyresq

October 7th, 2003, 01:04 AM

OK here we go, I might be starting a house fire but that is not my intention, so no trolls needed.

for this thread please disregard the topic of Bungeed wings, BWOD, and DIR vs. non-DIR, these have been beaten to death in other topics and have no relation to this question.
So,
My question is, why does OMS get such a bad rap on this forum, or more specificly I would like to hear from people who have had problems with their OMS gear, be it wings, lights or tanks etc...

I have seen people list their customer service from bad to nonexistant, but why were you calling them in the first place?

I have from OMS: two sets of doubles, and two singles with all oms hardware, two wings, a stainless BP, a harness pocket and a deco reg. I have to say I have never needed to call OMS for any problems so I do not know firsthand about their customer service, but I think their products are first rate, and their prices are better then some others (halcyon).

I especially like the design of the wings with the internal bladder that can be patched with a standard patch kit. And the new mini hid canister light looks like a good idea.

so why the bad rap on the forum?
...and please post only of things you know first hand, no "friends-cousin had a buddy who was without a bc for 6 months cause OMS didn't call him back"....

Bob3

October 7th, 2003, 01:24 AM

My only complaint with OMS is that I sometimes worry of dying from old age before the order comes in. :tease:
Other'n that, remember when everybody was wearing shirts with the little alligators on the pocket? You weren't squat if ya didn't have an alligator...

Walter

October 7th, 2003, 08:14 AM

Other than the bungie issue, I wasn't aware there was an issue with OMS equipment.

Scubaroo

October 7th, 2003, 08:28 AM

My main gripes with OMS are these:

1. Their main mode of advertising appears to be "trash the competitor's gear" rather than let their own gear sell on it's own merits.
2. Sudden changes of heart in gear philosophy - not too long ago, OMS were publicly trashing barrel manifolds with dual o-rings, claiming that they were an inferior design because they needed two o-rings per side in order to prevent failure. OMS have since released a THREE o-ring per side manifold, claiming it is the best design out there. Around the same time, they pulled the page saying that TWO o-rings was one too many.
3. They have doctored images of Halcyon logos on a generic backplate on their website, again, trashing a competitor's equipment. I wrote to them to register my complaint at such marketing tactics, the response was very unprofessional. They have a big anti-Halcyon chip on their shoulder.
4. Vaporware - they advertise items before they can go to market - how long have people been waiting for the hot dipped galvanised OMS tanks? Funnily enough, in the same advertising material, they trash painted tanks - which is what they're still selling.

Things I like about OMS:
1. Their imperial brass SPG - very nice piece of gear. Just recommended it to another ScubaBoarder in another thread (and probably in a dozen more elsewhere).

OMS just have a very poor marketing department, and their corporate image is suffering.

sasdasdaf

October 7th, 2003, 12:32 PM

on top of their poor marketing efforts, they also do make some ridiculous crap.

some examples:
bungee wings
100 lb wings (!)
double bladder wings
slob knobs
metal to metal stage kits
metal to metal light/argon mounts
deco reg mouth covers

can anyone make a reasoned argument for producing these items? not me.

on the other hand, they do make some good items, such as their SPG. i have one and i'm perfectly happy with it. i believe their regular wing is fine, as are some other items.

O-ring

October 7th, 2003, 12:55 PM

You forgot the manifold cages. A lot of the good stuff is on this page - http://www.omsdive.com/valve-access.html .

The slobwinders are classic though..hehe..

MikeFerrara

October 7th, 2003, 01:05 PM

Most companies want to market what they can sell. They let the market make the value judgments.

Metal to metal stage connections is SOP for most sidemount divers both in the US and overseas. If anybody has to worry about getting stuck and having to remove a piece of gear it's them. Reg covers are another example. It's been SOP for many years to be able to tell bottles apart by feel. There may be other ways but my gueass as to why they sell the stuff is that there are those out there who want to buy them.

Double bladder bc's is a real good example and one of the most fun to talk about. I haven't yet had any one explain to me how a balanced rig would get you out of a cave where the line is 10 ft off the bottom and the bottom is covered with deep silt. Being able to swim a rig up doesn't mean anything. You need the ability to get neutral. Without a dry suit I don't see how you're going to do it. If you're in a wet suit and if you have ditchable weight and if you ditch it, when you get shallower you'll end up buoyant and stuck against the roof.

sasdasdaf

October 7th, 2003, 02:19 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

I haven't yet had any one explain to me how a balanced rig would get you out of a cave where the line is 10 ft off the bottom and the bottom is covered with deep silt. Being able to swim a rig up doesn't mean anything. You need the ability to get neutral. Without a dry suit I don't see how you're going to do it. If you're in a wet suit and if you have ditchable weight and if you ditch it, when you get shallower you'll end up buoyant and stuck against the roof. [/B]

If you use a drysuit with heavy steel tanks and a wetsuit with aluminum tanks, you avoid this discussion altogether.

JimC

October 7th, 2003, 02:37 PM

I have always wonder how being in AL tanks with an 8lb V-Weight bolted in them was any better than Steel's in a wet suit when you loose a wing.

Your still way to negative.

So you make the weight dichable.. now your back to being glued to the roof.

sasdasdaf

October 7th, 2003, 02:41 PM

The last time I dove double AL80s in a 3 mil wetsuit I used a stainless steel backplate and needed no extra weight. I was in the sea. So if I were to dive fresh, I would use an aluminum plate.

Dryglove

October 7th, 2003, 02:49 PM

sasdasdaf once bubbled...

If you use a drysuit with heavy steel tanks and a wetsuit with aluminum tanks, you avoid this discussion altogether.

Whats that got to do with mike ferrera's statement. I think you misread or misunderstood what he said.

theskull

October 7th, 2003, 02:59 PM

This acronym is new to me.

What is a BWOD?

Don Burke

October 7th, 2003, 03:08 PM

nyresq once bubbled... My question is, why does OMS get such a bad rap on this forum, or more specificly I would like to hear from people who have had problems with their OMS gear, be it wings, lights or tanks etc...I saw a bunch of flames about a batch of Faber tanks they sold that had paint failures. My 112s haven't shown anything like that.

Add that to the odd gear they promote and you'll get a company pretty unpopular with some people.

MikeFerrara

October 7th, 2003, 03:09 PM

sasdasdaf once bubbled...

If you use a drysuit with heavy steel tanks and a wetsuit with aluminum tanks, you avoid this discussion altogether.

No it does not. If you have gas you'll be heavy (need air in your wing). When at depth your wet suit will have little buoyancy. Even if you are wearing Al tanks and can swim up (balanced rig), you will not be neutral. You'll be negative. That's fine if you can just go to the surface but if you have several hundred feet (or more) to go in a horizontal direction, you'll need to be neutral and horizontal. I think you have trouble.

The cave I described is exactly what sections of Peacock looks likein one of the most trveled sections in the system so it's not an off the wall situation either.

With my dry suit and steel tanks I would put some air in the suit. It wouldn't ba any fun but I could do it. I would pay to see some one do it in a wet suit, AL doubles and no wing.

Scuba_Vixen

October 7th, 2003, 07:44 PM

There are situations where a redundant bladder wing is the only practical risk management tool available. In the scenario given, it turns a big Ohh **** into a slight inconvenience.

What I find interesting, is that many of those who are categorically against redundant bladders, are the same ones who are categorically opposed to pony bottle redundant air sources as well. I'm seeing that there must be fundamental differences in diving philosophies...... On one side there are those who would let/rely on their buddy to bail them out in a problem situation, and on the other side are those who would try to avoid a situation getting that far along in the first place with backup eqipment choices.

Just some observations,

Darlene

ColdH20diving

October 7th, 2003, 08:57 PM

Over the past few years I have purchased several OMS products, IQ PAK, SS Backplate, STA, Wing, and 112 & 85 tanks. My problem with OMS started after I purchased their 21 watt HID light. My first hint of a problem was at the time of purchase, there was no operators manual, the charger looked like a dime store product. When I got home I opened the cannister to checkout the internal wiring, what a surprise that was. One side of the circuit board was covered in a layer of silicone, but basically unprotected. Needless to say I was disappointed, I called OMS to ask about charging times and care for the light head/battery. No one could or would help me. I sent several emails to their on line information site, NO response. I sent a letter to the president of OMS, NO response. After getting No where with OMS I sold the light, since then I have been replacing my OMS gear with Halcyon, FredT, and Dive Rite products.

OMS makes some nice gear, but I will no longer buy anymore of their products. Now I'm working on my buddies, so far one has dumped most of her OMS gear and replacing it with Oxycheq.

ABQdiver

October 7th, 2003, 09:32 PM

theskull once bubbled...
This acronym is new to me.

What is a BWOD?

Bungeed Wings of Death (http://www.omsdive.com/single.html#BC117) :) :D

Boogie711

October 7th, 2003, 11:45 PM

What I find interesting, is that many of those who are categorically against redundant bladders, are the same ones who are categorically opposed to pony bottle redundant air sources as well.

Real simple - there's already redundancy, in a drysuit and a pair of manifolded doubles. There's redundancy, and then there's ridiculous. Carrying an extra inflator hose around the whole time in the unlikely event of a bladder failure is, in my mind, ridiculous. Carrying a Pony bottle is a substitute for improper gas management.

On one side there are those who would let/rely on their buddy to bail them out in a problem situation, and on the other side are those who would try to avoid a situation getting that far along in the first place with backup eqipment choices.

It's called team diving, and before you start accusing me of some sort of DIR-ness, I'm not. And pray tell - what situation would get "far enough along" that you would magically avoid with a Pony bottle and dangling extra inflator hose? :)

Scuba_Vixen

October 8th, 2003, 03:43 AM

And by the same logic, having a spare tire in your car is a substitute for improper tire management and should be avoided. ..... What a crock... a pony to cover an unanticipated loss of gas has Nothing to do with improper management of that gas

The dual bladder is primarily a viable option for wetsuit divers as the pony is for singles divers..if you're in doubles or dry, both become much less practical. (and I don't recal seeing it suggested either) Or are You suggesting that everyone should be diving manifolded doubles and a drysuit on every dive as they are the only "acceptable" means of redundancy?

The best of buddy teams do at times become seperated, if only temporarily, Murphy would suggest that if you're going to have a failure, that's when it's likely to occur.....

Whatever logic you have that says manifolded doubles and drysuit redundancy is good, but dual bladder and pony redundancy is bad, continues to escape analytical thought...

Darlene

Boogie711

October 8th, 2003, 08:06 AM

And I don't want this to get personal.

Here's my thinking... carrying extra gas is a crutch. You or I might be OK with it, but I've seen too many roto-tillers chewing up a lake bottom to know that some people would eventually just treat a pony not as a redundant air supply, but as an additional air supply.

If you dive singles, I would advocate an H valve, which is a heck of a lot lighter, more streamlined and considerably cheaper than an entire pony bottle setup.

My further 'redundancy' is in my buddy's mouth. No matter what the circumstances, it would be an awfully unique situation for me to consider solo diving. That one I'm pretty adamant about - a pony bottle won't cut you out of a fishing line, calm you down if you freak out about a snake or any one of a myriad of things that a good buddy does. (I hate snakes, can you tell? :) ) Those who consider a pony bottle as a 'buddy in a bottle' are fooling themselves.

But again, that's just me.

oharag

October 8th, 2003, 10:50 AM

And by the same logic, having a spare tire in your car is a substitute for improper tire management and should be avoided. ..... What a crock... a pony to cover an unanticipated loss of gas has Nothing to do with improper management of that gas

You wouldn't go on a desert trip without at least a full tank of gas, a spare tire, maybe an extra canister in the back of the trunk and lots of water. Sounds logical.

I'm new to scuba. I happened upon this DIR stuff, and read it with interest. Sounds logical. It seemed to preach diving safe and diving redundant. I listened with open ears. I wanted to learn how to do it right (or dive it right :D ). Now, after only 3 months into my scuba career DIR just sounds like a cult/religion gone bad. DIR's logic seems screwed up. It also seems to preach one way -> Halycon, Halycon, all hail Halycon (and maybe this Ocycheck company that also pops up once in a while). Everything else IS BAD, BAD I SAY! I popped onto a DIR site, and they had links to everything Halycon. I guess most religions eventually get corrupt (witness the Catholic religion selling hail mary's during the dark ages). I think this DIR cult would have more credibility to myself if they were a little more open-minded. DIR should lay the foundation for diving safe using redundant equipment (ie. anyone's equipment, OMS included) and procedures (much like those taught at PADI, NAUI, et al.).

Here's where I think DIR went wrong (besides the fact they found their savior in Halycon :D ). Redundancy would mean to me just that. Dual tanks, multiple shutoffs, dual first stages, dual regs (each on their own firsts), redundant LP hose just in case, dual bladders (just in case), and an alternate air source besides your buddies (ie. pony bottle). I believe everything up there is accepted by DIR's except the Pony and dual bladders (right? I'm sorry I may not be totally up on this thing). When I proposed dual bladders as a safe way to go I was summarily put into my place. Again, doesn't seem logical to me to require redundancy and yet pooh pooh redundant bladders :confused: Another thing about this DIR thing is the long primary hose wrapped around your neck. What! Seems to be a hazard to me. Entanglement gentleman (and ladies)! I guess the reasoning is you can hand your regulator to someone trapped in a remote location? Well, eventually someone's going to have to rise to the top sometime. Maybe it'll afford the person trapped some time to try to get unwrapped with the assistance of your buddy, right? Maybe someone could explain this to me. If you are out in the open, and you need air it wouldn't matter to me that the hose was just long enough to get to me from my buddies primary. Maybe I have to stare at his ugly face, but by grabbing him securely and ascending to safety works with both a long hose, and short hose.

Boogie711 your logic escapes me. Sure carrying a pony could create a issue with it dragging along the bottom, but it still doesn't take away from it's purpose: to provide air in the case your primary source fails (first stage locks, air runs out, etc...). Also, having two tanks strapped to your back could also be considered "a crutch". You may get comfortable staying down too long, and risk decompression issues if you do not have enough air to complete your deco stop. A pony bottle would be there just in case. There's also no guarantee that your buddy will be there for you. You request air, and he only has so much to give. You could risk deco problems. Maybe he slipped around the corner of the wreck. You're out of air and you do not know where he/she is. What are you going to do? Also, a H-valve/doubles is fine for redundancy, or in the case of equipment failure. It does you no good during an out of air situation. It's best to account for anything while scuba diving, right? It's a dangerous sport. You also proclaim a dry suit is your redundant bladder. Well I'm diving wet. Also, my instructor (who has 3,000 dives under his belt - deep 200 to 300 and caves) stated to never use your BC as an inflation device. Air is there to add a thermal layer between you and the outside, as well as eliminate the pressure squeeze from the water. I would rather use my BC deflator as I ascend rather than fiddle with both a dry suit dump, and deflator at the same time! Besides, you can use a pony bottle to attack sea snakes. It makes a good weapon. Cutting a fishing line is best left up to a knife or shears. I believe Scuba_Vixen never suggested diving solo with a pony. She stated that diving with a pony and a buddy is the most redundant way you could dive (along with dual bladders). Carrying a pony does not preclude you from diving with a body (unless of course he's a DIRer, and refuses to dive with you because you're carrying a pony.).

I guess I have to separate the chaff from the BS. The goal here is to choose equipment that is reliable and safe. Dive using safe practices and procedures. Choose the equipment regardless of manufacturer that best suit your needs. And take plenty of classes from PADI, NAUI et al.

oharag

O-ring

October 8th, 2003, 10:54 AM

Separate the chaff from the BS.. I moved your entire post into the BS column. Next time preface it with "Please move to BS column" so I can save some time. Thanks..

JimC

October 8th, 2003, 11:02 AM

Think being in a cave, with a 50 foot long narrow, tight passage that you have to swim single file.

Getting into deco unprepared and believing a pony bottle is going to provide resonable bailout is... beyond nieve - its a death sentence.

oharag once bubbled...

Another thing about this DIR thing is the long primary hose wrapped around your neck. What! Seems to be a hazard to me. Entanglement gentleman (and ladies)!

... snip

You may get comfortable staying down too long, and risk decompression issues if you do not have enough air to complete your deco stop. A pony bottle would be there just in case. oharag

MikeFerrara

October 8th, 2003, 11:08 AM

oharag once bubbled...

Another thing about this DIR thing is the long primary hose wrapped around your neck. What! Seems to be a hazard to me. Entanglement gentleman (and ladies)! I guess the reasoning is you can hand your regulator to someone trapped in a remote location? Well, eventually someone's going to have to rise to the top sometime. Maybe it'll afford the person trapped some time to try to get unwrapped with the assistance of your buddy, right? Maybe someone could explain this to me. If you are out in the open, and you need air it wouldn't matter to me that the hose was just long enough to get to me from my buddies primary. Maybe I have to stare at his ugly face, but by grabbing him securely and ascending to safety works with both a long hose, and short hose.

The long hose is so two divers can share gas and still have room to be able to swim effectively. We aren't always going up but often back. In an overhead environment it also allows diver to share gas and swim single file in order to get through small spots. Since the hose lays right against the body when stowed it's far less an entanglement hazard that the normal recreational configuration with a big loop of hose hanging off to the side.

with as much experience deep diving and cave diving as you say your instructor has, I'm surprised he didn't explain some of this.

ScottyK

October 8th, 2003, 11:40 AM

oharag once bubbled...

Another thing about this DIR thing is the long primary hose wrapped around your neck. What! Seems to be a hazard to me. Entanglement gentleman (and ladies)! .

You should really do some more research before you form such an intractible opinion about DIR. The quote above shows you need to. I recently got a close look at a long hose setup on a diver, and was impressed by just the opposite of what you're stating here. His hose was right up against him except for an inch or two just to the right of his chin.

My standard hose configuration does the standard loop around the right side of my head and is sticking out off of me for its entire length. Explain how this is less of an entanglement hazard so I can believe you are really being open minded.

I can look at myself objectively and admit that someone else's gear is set up better than mine.

Hopefully, I'll be a better diver for it...

Scott

PS- On topic. No major purchases from OMS, but I own/have owned some OMS accessories like knives, shears etc... I have found them to be long lasting and of good quality.

sasdasdaf

October 8th, 2003, 11:44 AM

oharag, go back to square one. If you want to know what DIR is about, take a class. Your opinions are based on preconceived notions and ignorance.

And what makes you think your instructor is right?

Scuba_Vixen

October 8th, 2003, 12:07 PM

How is it that you can convolute things so much.....I stated that a pony is for one purpose: To cover the unanticipated loss of your single tank's gas (blown disc, lp hose, Oring, etc.)...and now you turn it into:

"Getting into deco unprepared and believing a pony bottle is going to provide resonable bailout is... beyond nieve - its a death sentence."

You could just as easily say:

Getting into deco unprepared and believing doubles are going to provide resonable bailout is... beyond nieve - its a death sentence.

It's eqally true, and equally irrelevant.....gas management and dedicated emergency bailout are Seperate Things...

You're blaming and condemning a piece of usefull gear for a diver's Lack Of Training, Knowledge, and proper mental attitude !!!......

You wouldn't blame the BC if some clown buys a 70# wing to use like a lift bag to get stuff up off the bottom....

I didn't mean anything personal towards anyone, it's just a lot more convincing when you make your case with logical arguement than irrelevant emotional appeal.

Darlene

Don Burke

October 8th, 2003, 12:34 PM

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... How is it that you can convolute things so much.....I stated that a pony is for one purpose: To cover the unanticipated loss of your single tank's gas (blown disc, lp hose, Oring, etc.)...and now you turn it into:

"Getting into deco unprepared and believing a pony bottle is going to provide resonable bailout is... beyond nieve - its a death sentence." Both are a bit of a reach. Most people I know using pony bottles are essentially diving independent mismatched doubles. While there are some who rarely use the pony(which is the proper way), they are the exception. That leads me to believe they create bad habits.

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... You could just as easily say:

Getting into deco unprepared and believing doubles are going to provide resonable bailout is... beyond nieve - its a death sentence.

It's eqally true, and equally irrelevant.....gas management and dedicated emergency bailout are Seperate Things...That would be only in the case of independent doubles. I don't think you'll find too many advocates of them here.

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... You're blaming and condemning a piece of usefull gear for a diver's Lack Of Training, Knowledge, and proper mental attitude !!!....There are several pieces of gear that seem to produce bad habits. The pony is one that I question the usefulness of since it seems to create problems so often.

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... You wouldn't blame the BC if some clown buys a 70# wing to use like a lift bag to get stuff up off the bottom....I'd certainly blame the people who advocated the use of a big wing in that way.

The same people who make the big wings make liftbags. Go figure.

Scuba_Vixen once bubbled... I didn't mean anything personal towards anyone, it's just a lot more convincing when you make your case with logical arguement than irrelevant emotional appeal. A little more logic and a lot less adrenaline would be a very good thing around here.

padiscubapro

October 8th, 2003, 01:07 PM

Boogie711 once bubbled...
And I don't want this to get personal.

Here's my thinking... carrying extra gas is a crutch. You or I might be OK with it, but I've seen too many roto-tillers chewing up a lake bottom to know that some people would eventually just treat a pony not as a redundant air supply, but as an additional air supply.

If you dive singles, I would advocate an H valve, which is a heck of a lot lighter, more streamlined and considerably cheaper than an entire pony bottle setup.

My further 'redundancy' is in my buddy's mouth. No matter what the circumstances, it would be an awfully unique situation for me to consider solo diving. That one I'm pretty adamant about - a pony bottle won't cut you out of a fishing line, calm you down if you freak out about a snake or any one of a myriad of things that a good buddy does. (I hate snakes, can you tell? :) ) Those who consider a pony bottle as a 'buddy in a bottle' are fooling themselves.

But again, that's just me.

Too narrow minded..

A pony bottle, like scuba vixen said is to cover unexpected gas loss not to extend a dive.. Sh*t happens and your buddy wount always be there.. maybe if you always dive in clear water, or a cave where its difficult to get seperated you can always find your buddy.. I dive and teach in the NE us.. 10ft viz is considered a good day, 5ft is pretty common.. its harder to keep with your buddy than get seperated.. to give you an Idea how easy.. you glance down and see a lobster pause to investigate, your buddy was looking ahead, he turns back you are gone.... in limited viz only swimming a few feet will sperate you.. You aren't going to use a "buddy" line because of entanglement hazards..

Now you have to search for your buddy and depending what you agreed on before hand to either return to the descent point or continue your dive.. MOST divers up here continue the dive because they know they will eventually run into their buddy again.. even if they don't they are still effectively solo diving whether they like it or not. Having a pony is your backup gas.. Many of the boats up here will NOT allow you to dive without a pony bottle or a set of doubles..
There are even a few boats that wount let you dive without first seeing your logbook regardless of certification level.. if you don't have local experience (or similiar conditions) you'll have to dive with someone who has..

Most divers don't use it to extend their dive (at least up here in the ne) they know its for emergencies.. if its common where you dive they need better training..

Carrying "an extra inflator hose" if stowed correctly doesn't present any additional entanglement hazards or risks.. You don't need an extra LP inflator hose you can use the original one, if you use a second bladder with a drysuit you also have that hose as well.. certain wings like halycon dont work well(another reason for halycon supporters to bash redundant bladders) if you try and double them up their connection is in the absolute worse position for this (plus that material over the elbow prevents repositioning)... most other bladders allow it to be done easily.. whether 2 seperate bladders or 1 double bladder..

I can take this even one step further, some places you must use all steel tanks.. aluminum tanks are not an option either "a" they aren't easily available or "b" they are illegal.. yes there ARE counties that it is illegal to use al cylinders for diving..

Now your drysuit is definately incapable of being a backup device wityhout being dangerous..

sasdasdaf

October 8th, 2003, 01:15 PM

Or you can just focus on developing excellent buddy skills, such that it would take a major incident to separate you from your buddy. In bad viz and difficult conditions, situational awareness and keeping in close contact with your buddy are even more important.

You should not lose your buddy because of distractions. If you do, then you've made a bad choice in picking your buddy.

Just because a boat has a certain policy doesn't make them right.

padiscubapro

October 8th, 2003, 01:20 PM

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
Or you can just focus on developing excellent buddy skills, such that it would take a major incident to separate you from your buddy. In bad viz and difficult conditions, situational awareness and keeping in close contact with your buddy are even more important.

You should not lose your buddy because of distractions. If you do, then you've made a bad choice in picking your buddy.

Just because a boat has a certain policy doesn't make them right.

2 people just cruising the wreck its difficult but not overly impossible, but if you dive locally you know most divers local to the ny area are either avid lobster hunters, spear fisherman or artifact hunters.. it only takes a few seconds to get seperated.. if you have your eyes glued to each other you aren't seeing anything. it obvious the more experienced the diver is the more likely they can stay together.. the problem is that most experienced divers have an agenda and it usually doesn't involve babysitting a new diver.. If you are teaching and getting paid to babysit thats one thing, if you are paying good money (and out boats aren't cheap) you want to enjoy the dive..

The biggest danger is the new diver, a second gas source can't hurt..

oharag

October 8th, 2003, 01:48 PM

right armpit, and into my mouth. Not much hanging out. I suppose similar to a DIRer except he wraps it around his neck once (and I suppose clips it off on his right hip).

So DIR is mostly for caves, where I agree with the long hose and the ability to swim in front of one another.

The question about high capacity wings is one I had posed. Like I said before so much BS and marketing hype it's hard for a newbie to separate truth from reality. I still think dual bladders are a DIR mandate!

oharag

sasdasdaf

October 8th, 2003, 01:57 PM

oharag,

You might view the benefits of the 7ft hose different if you actually see it in action. It is remarkably easy to deploy and stow and will make a difference when the time comes.

The 7ft is useful not only in a cave, but in open water as well. It is much more comfortable to share gas when you aren't in danger of having a reg ripped out of your mouth because the hose is too short. Not to mention you don't have to be pressed up against the donor.

padiscubapro,

I understand the desire to enjoy one's dives, but I think that shouldn't be at the expense of keeping good buddy skills. It's not necessary to constantly have your eyes on your buddy if you communicate via light signals. In any case, you really shouldn't be more than a few feet away from your buddy. I recently did a dive with 2 buddies in 3ft vis and we stayed as a team the entire time.

Dryglove

October 8th, 2003, 02:04 PM

sasdasdaf once bubbled...
oharag,

You might view the benefits of the 7ft hose different if you actually see it in action. It is remarkably easy to deploy and stow and will make a difference when the time comes.

The 7ft is useful not only in a cave, but in open water as well. It is much more comfortable to share gas when you aren't in danger of having a reg ripped out of your mouth because the hose is too short. Not to mention you don't have to be pressed up against the donor.

Watch the video and see for yourself the advantages

http://www.fifthd.com/classinfo/video/ooaascent.htm

http://www.fifthd.com/classinfo/video/ooa.htm

oharag

October 8th, 2003, 02:32 PM

I'm newly certified. You hear all these things you're supposed to do during a dive. Ie. Wear your snorkel (after OW throw it away), and stay with your buddy. Well, my brother says when he goes down to a wreck everyone scatters. I think that this is prevalent in most cases (unless of course you are caving, best to stay close to your life support). I went on a wreck dive recently. Even though I was diving with my teacher and buddy there were many times where we were going single file. I was in the back. If something fell on me, or I got entangled no one would know. Sure they would notice I was gone in a period of time, but where did I go? Fortunately, there was a ton of other divers down on this wreck. My buddy could have been any one of them (that's the beauty of scuba). But, what would happen if I requested air, and the person offering only had so much air to give? I dove in NJ where pony bottles are the law. The boat I went on allowed H-Valves. Still I wouldn't know how to manipulate the H valve to save my life. Taking a Pony Bottle would have been much safer.

oharag

PS Why did a discussion about OMS wings turn into a discussion about doing it right? Supposedly DIRers hate OMS wings (hence BWOD). This was news to me. I kind of like the bungeed wings. In fact I would have thought they would have been adopted by DIRers. Small, compact, out of the way, double bladders.

ERP

October 8th, 2003, 02:50 PM

I went on a wreck dive recently. Even though I was diving with my teacher and buddy there were many times where we were going single file. I was in the back. If something fell on me, or I got entangled no one would know. Sure they would notice I was gone in a period of time, but where did I go?

If you and your buddy were DIR divers you would use your lights to establish passive communication. When something went wrong your buddy in front would know to look back for you immediatly.

DIR is far more than just equipment. Buddy and Situational awareness are all part of the package.

When I finished reading about DIR here I had the opinion it had some good ideas, but some of them seemed excessive or extreme. Once I started diving with DIR buddies and started to ask questions it became apparent that the system isn't a collection of ideas. It's a collection of ideas designed to work in context with each other.

IMO you cannot get a grasp on what DIR is or isn't by listening to people who don't dive DIR. If your really interested do a DIRF, evene if you decide that DIR isn't for you, you'll learn a lot, it's an exceptional course.

oharag

October 8th, 2003, 03:05 PM

I've read the DIR stuff (maybe not in full). Many good ideas. In fact probably no different from my PADI classes. But, don't you think DIRers lay it on a little thick? It's like Harley motorcycle riders. Anything else is crude!

I think we should stop clasifying "a right way" and a "wrong way" to dive. We should all be considerate of how we dive using safe equipment and procedures, rather than what kind of equipment we dive how we attach it to our bodies? And I guess DIRers do differ somewhat with their methods of buddy breathing (hence the long hose). The method of communicating using the lights was taught by my PADI instructor on my night dive. Excellent way to communicate. I tried that during my wreck dive when my instrcutor was trying to look for me (I was above him). Unfortunately, I have a weak light. He couldn't even see it. Got to get me one of those HID's!!!!!!!!!!! Buuuuyahhhhhh!

oharag

JohnF

October 8th, 2003, 03:13 PM

O-ring once bubbled...
You forgot the manifold cages. A lot of the good stuff is on this page - http://www.omsdive.com/valve-access.html .

The slobwinders are classic though..hehe..

Dayum. I thought that thingy was a boom mike. You mean they don't have an in-water comms system?

MikeFerrara

October 8th, 2003, 03:22 PM

oharag once bubbled...
But, what would happen if I requested air, and the person offering only had so much air to give?

That's why you end the dive while you still have enough air to get you and your buddy safely to the surface.

They should realy start teaching this in entry level classes.

MikeFerrara

October 8th, 2003, 03:30 PM

oharag once bubbled...
I've read the DIR stuff (maybe not in full). Many good ideas. In fact probably no different from my PADI classes. But, don't you think DIRers lay it on a little thick? It's like Harley motorcycle riders. Anything else is crude!

I think we should stop clasifying "a right way" and a "wrong way" to dive. We should all be considerate of how we dive using safe equipment and procedures, rather than what kind of equipment we dive how we attach it to our bodies? And I guess DIRers do differ somewhat with their methods of buddy breathing (hence the long hose). The method of communicating using the lights was taught by my PADI instructor on my night dive. Excellent way to communicate. I tried that during my wreck dive when my instrcutor was trying to look for me (I was above him). Unfortunately, I have a weak light. He couldn't even see it. Got to get me one of those HID's!!!!!!!!!!! Buuuuyahhhhhh!

oharag

The worst place to be is above your buddy in his blind spot. They should teach this in entry level classes also.

The light communications you were tought for your night dive is a start but it's not much help without a suitable light.

Do they lay it on a little thick? There you were, in your instructors blind spot with a light to weak to communicate with and today you ask what if you requested air from some one who didn't have enough. You were effectively solo. If you would have had a problem then you would have been on your own. that's a very lose ineffective aplication of the buddy system. LOL And apparantly sans gas planning. Do you think it's too late to get a refund?

sasdasdaf

October 8th, 2003, 03:30 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

They should realy start teaching this in entry level classes.

Agreed. There's a lot more to dive planning than "return to the boat with 500 psi".

padiscubapro

October 8th, 2003, 04:32 PM

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

The worst place to be is above your buddy in his blind spot. They should teach this in entry level classes also.

The light communications you were tought for your night dive is a start but it's not much help without a suitable light.

Do they lay it on a little thick? There you were, in your instructors blind spot with a light to weak to communicate with and today you ask what if you requested air from some one who didn't have enough. You were effectively solo. If you would have had a problem then you would have been on your own. that's a very lose ineffective aplication of the buddy system. LOL And apparantly sans gas planning. Do you think it's too late to get a refund?

You beat me to the light issue..
light communication requires a good light, much stronger than most new divers use.. in limited viz a 50w halogen or 10w hid is the minimum, and even this the light may only go a few feet.. there are two types of limited viz, 1 that the viz is obstructed and dar bu ;arge particles, you tend to be able to get your light to work better here, but limited viz due to heavy fine silt the light no matter how bright dies fast..

when you stayed with your buddies on this dive what were you guys doing.. were you just hanging along or were you all active trying to do something.. if everyone is willing to just cruise together or follow one person who is doing hunting it works, but as soon as more than one person wants dinner forget about staying together.. I am talking reality...

I have done dives where if I didn't HOLD my students BC I would have lost him... I remember one dive where at an arms length his flashlight was just a faint glow....

as to not having a pony, mikes point is valid.. new divers tend to use alot of gas, so there is probably a good chance that when one guy needs it the other guy is probably in a similiar situation.. There is no valid reason not to carry some type of backup for recreational divers.. tech divers should be carefully planning their dives and are much more experienced they shouldn't be running out of gas..

also consider the gas supply on the divers is is fine and 1 diver has a reg failure, the second guys gas supply under stress, the OOA guy may breathe too hard and now 2 people have a gas supply problem, or if they are newer divers they probably didn't buy the best regs and 2 stressed out divers may not be able to breathe off a lower performing reg at depth..

You always have to consider the WORSE situation that could happen and prevent that.. you can't count on everything being ok...I personally have seen INSTRUCTORS used to clear conditions (especially if they consider 40 ft bad viz), get paniced in poor viz conditions.. I remember rescuing a very experienced instructor because he never had to deal with 5ft viz and got lost and started panicing... We were on a broken up wreck, I was lobster hunting about 100yards from the upline when he passed me going the wrong direction with those BUG eyes(and God only knows where is buddy was at the time)... In the NE a free ascent definately isn't a good thing...

Usually most divers can handle a single problem, but someone who isn't self sufficient gets seperated, his stress level goes up, this can trigger harder breathing and maybe an OOA situation, having the second option may be enough even if its not used to give the person a feeling of comfort so he /she can keep themselves under control.

sasdasdaf

October 8th, 2003, 04:44 PM

padiscubapro,

very good points.

however i would suggest that the first step to solve most of these problems you mention about new divers, is to get good training. good training and a good buddy should prevent all these problems from cascading and causing a real CF. if good training is not available, then these divers should not be attempting dives that are beyond their comfort level. for example, if one is not used to diving in vis less than 40ft, it's not surprising that one may panic in 5ft vis.

lragsac

October 8th, 2003, 07:04 PM

O-ring once bubbled...
You forgot the manifold cages. A lot of the good stuff is on this page - http://www.omsdive.com/valve-access.html .

The slobwinders are classic though..hehe..

But, but...that detachable remote valve knob thingy could be the answer to all my valve drill problems!! :mean:

JohnF

October 8th, 2003, 08:10 PM

lragsac once bubbled...

But, but...that detachable remote valve knob thingy could be the answer to all my valve drill problems!! :mean:

One for each valve?

John F

roturner

October 9th, 2003, 02:01 AM

Boogie711 once bubbled...
<snip>
Here's my thinking... carrying extra gas is a crutch. You or I might be OK with it, but I've seen too many roto-tillers chewing up a lake bottom to know that some people would eventually just treat a pony not as a redundant air supply, but as an additional air supply.

Let me get this right, you've seen people with poor buoyancy control so you know they wouldn't follow their training with resepect to proper use of a pony bottle???!?

Maybe you mean inexperienced divers will ignore protocol. In my experience, inexperienced divers do whatever you tell them to do, to the letter (or at least as well as they can). Divers with a little experience start to push the envelope. Not the real beginners (which are presumably the ones plowing along the bottom).

If you dive singles, I would advocate an H valve, which is a heck of a lot lighter, more streamlined and considerably cheaper than an entire pony bottle setup.

Sure. I use this as do a lot of people in my area. You see them all the time with one side connected to a single regulator and the other side not connected at all or with one side connected to a newish reg and the other side connected to old 2nd or 3rd or 4th-hand junk that the diver is using as his last resort (octopus). You also see many examples that are configured in such a way that you'd never be able to reach the valve handles with it on your back, let alone turn it off in time with a big freeflow.

As you know, most divers who dive doubles have to practice valve drills to learn the shutdown skills but you would suggest that just buying an H valve (which is harder to reach with your hands without loosening your bcd and pushing your whole scuba unit up higher on your back) is a better solution than a pony bottle. I would suggest that most people who have these things (H-valves) either couldn't find them to turn them off or couldn't do it in time when the poop was flying. By suggesting that the H valve is a better solution, you might even be endangering lives by convincing people to use what is, for many, a more complicated solution to a massive gas-loss problem.

In other words just having an H valve isn't a guarantee that people will use them correctly (your objection to using a pony) or that it will solve all your problems.

The real advantages to pony bottles are that the air is safe and it's simple to use. There are disadvantages too but I don't think they have anything to do with your buoyancy control and/or experience level (undesireable effects on trim, for example). But if you ask me I think they're a perfectly acceptable form of redundancy for bailout in non-overhead recreational diving.

My further 'redundancy' is in my buddy's mouth.
<snip>

Those who consider a pony bottle as a 'buddy in a bottle' are fooling themselves.

I would agree in part with this. Good buddy skills are often a better solution than throwing gear at what is essentially a training problem. In that sense you could say that both a pony bottle and an H valve are solutions to the wrong problems. On the other hand, buddies do get separated, a buddy can make a mistake and not all of us have the luxury of always hand-picking a buddy with good skills or working on skills over the course of many dives (think tourist boat). In fact the first dive with someone new is often a big question-mark. In that sense I think self-sufficiency (ability to self rescue) as a starting point is essential.

After many many dives with my regular buddy I can say in all seriousness that he wears my pony on his back. But I don't think I would have said that after 10 dives and most certainly not on the first dive. In other words the buddy system isn't a cure-all either.

R..

RichLockyer

October 9th, 2003, 02:26 AM

oharag once bubbled...
So DIR is mostly for caves, where I agree with the long hose and the ability to swim in front of one another.
Come join me in California and I'll take you into some kelp forests where you would appreciate a long hose in an OOG situation:

1 - A direct ascent would mean an extremely difficult and hazardous surface crawl (not swim). Swimming only 5 feet under the kelp umbrella allows for actual swimming, and at that depth, gas lasts a long time, and you're never more than a 5 minute swim from the seaward edge of the kelp forest.

2 - Similarly, it is impossible for two divers to swim side by side while connected by a hose... single file is the only way through IF they are connected.

To see some of this beautiful diving, check out my friend Chris's site: http://www.underwaterplanet.com

Boogie711

October 9th, 2003, 08:34 AM

I can understand 'new divers' being roto-tillers. I was probably one myself. I think Mike Ferrara is right and that proper buoyancy control should be taught better, but thats' not my point.

By roto-tillers, I mean crap divers. Divers who have maybe 50 or 200 dives, but still bounce off the bottom, have crappy gear configurations with danglies all over the place, couldn't navigate their way out of a paper bag, and believe in having everything from an Air2 to a Spare Air or the "flexomatic newestpieceofcrap" dive option strapped to their BC.

THOSE are the ones who think they have experience to go solo diving, and don't. Those are the ones who will treat a pony bottle as an extended gas source, not the emergency reserve.

Your concerns about "H-valves" goes back to training. Sure, just as someone could have crappy connections on an H-valve, someone can have a crappy POS regulator on a half-filled Pony Bottle and consider that "safe." I sure don't.

I can't make excuses for poor training - I can only dive safely and refuse to dive with those poor excuses for a diver who might dive with an H-valve with no idea how it works.

MikeS

October 9th, 2003, 08:54 AM

O-ring,

That's too funny, even before my first cup of coffee! I've moved your post to the "coke alert column."

oharag once bubbled...
I guess I have to separate the chaff from the BS.

oharag

I�m sorry that someone got the wheat before you got here and all you�re left with is the chaff and the BS to sort through.

But seriously, the lack of consensus on the best equipment configuration can be very frustrating to a new diver. DIR claims to have the �right� gear configuration yet most traditional instructors consider DIR to be a fanatical fringe movement. Most local dive shops claim to sell the �best� gear and disparage the brands they don�t sell. So how do you separate the preverbal wheat from the chaff (A.K.A. BS)?

If indeed you do �want to learn,� a frontal assault on DIR is not a good way to go about it. That�s only likely to ignite another DIR versus anti-DIR debate where logic and reasoning is replaced by emotion and rock throwing. Instead, I suggest you separate the individual gear configuration issues from their DIRness and examine them. You may find as I and others have the much of the equipment configuration embraced by DIR makes sense and incorporate them into your gear configuration.

Take for example the long hose with a bungeed backup. I found it to be the best possible way to share air; if there�s a better way I�m willing to listen. The long hose allows both divers to individually control their buoyancy while swimming either single file or side by side. This is a good thing when it�s desirable to surface at a specific point such as on the anchor line.

While cyber discussion has its place there is no substitute for trying it. Try it in the water! You�ll see that there is no way the hose can choke you and it allows you to swim horizontally as well as easily perform a safety stop without hanging onto the line. Try this simple test with both a long hose and traditional octopus. While sharing air swim a hundred yards horizontally and then surface with a reference line including a safety stop. That should be all it takes to convince you.

Mike

oharag

October 9th, 2003, 07:10 PM

I apologize to all.

I will read up on DIR, as well as other philosophies in order to determine what I feel to be the best equipment/configuration I want to dive. It is hard to determine what is up or down for a newbie in this sport.

oharag

roturner

October 9th, 2003, 07:31 PM

oharag once bubbled...
I apologize to all.

I will read up on DIR, as well as other philosophies in order to determine what I feel to be the best equipment/configuration I want to dive. It is hard to determine what is up or down for a newbie in this sport.

oharag

No need to apologize. Just be sure to listen to the ones who take you seriously and ignore the ones who use a newbie's obvious lack of expererience and/or knowledge as a soapbox for trying to look like the big man. The post(s) slagging you off were the real waste of bandwidth.

R..
P.S. "Up" is where the bubbles go. :)

R..

nyresq

October 12th, 2003, 01:33 PM

why is every thread on this board that goes more than 2 pages doomed to become a DIR vs. non-DIR contest???

it was going good for a while then whammo!!! DIR rules vs. DIR sucks!!!... never fails...:upset:

LUBOLD8431

October 12th, 2003, 02:38 PM

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...
I have thought about high capacity wings, and the only real need I can come up with for them is by instructors or underwater salvage teams who carry large tool bags.

Other than that, I cannot see why anyone would ever need a wing with more than about 50 lbs of lift. Yet there are 100 lb wings on the market.

DOnt be so close minded... In fresh water, diving with heavy steel double cylinders, two deco bottles, a heavy canister light, I ABSOLUTELY NEED more than 50# of lift. I am perfectly comfortable with a 70# wing...

When I am Instructing, I use a 45# BC, but I probably only need a 30# bc. BTW, when carrying large tool bags, or something heavy, they are usually lowered down to a commercial diver. So, both of your points for using large lift BC's are not valid. However, you could not come up with ONE true use for a high capacity wing...

OK, now back to the OMS thing. I have owned a 100# double bladder bungeed wing. I didnt like the thing at all. It trapped air on me, it was very big, and I didnt need all that lift and redundancy, because I always dive dry with doubles. SO, got rid of it. I also owned an OMS SS BP and harness. I didnt like the harness, because of the quick release, and the fact that the dring was not adjustable on that side. Also, I owned two 46 cu ft deco bottles. Sold them because they are steel, and too heavy for deco bottles. I have two sets of OMS 112's doubles. I am getting rid of them because the paint doesnt seem to like to stay on the cylinders. Every year, I lose more of it. On the inside, they are nice an purdy, but outside, they have alot of Rustoleum sprayed on them.

So, at one time, I was a big OMS fan, obviously. I finally woke up and saw that there is better gear available.

What I have replaced my OMS stuff with is this: Dive Rite SS BP and hogarthian harness, DR classic wing, and Oxycheq 70# wing, aluminum 40 deco bottles, and soon to have PST E8-130's doubles.

I do have to say that the BP was nice.... LOL...

Everything else, I would NEVER buy again...

sasdasdaf

October 12th, 2003, 04:16 PM

That was my point. OMS do make some decent items but most of their stuff is ridiculous crap.

ElectricZombie

October 17th, 2003, 01:41 AM

I'm not a big fan of OMS for several reasons:

1. Poorly designed gear that does not work properly. They have a lot of products that are just plain junk.

2. They frequently change their minds regarding gear. Everyone else's gear ideas suck until OMS copies it.

3. "Anything goes/Do whatever you want" gear attitude. They release all these nonsense products just to boost sales, and could care less if they are actually needed or function properly. Anything goes with OMS. (Remember the "extenders" for the left, right and isolator knobs of a manifold? What were they thinking?)

4. OMS trashes it's competition. Their products don't stand up on their own so, they have to attempt to confuse consumers.

5. Copycat gear. Some of their new offerings look extremely familiar...

The OMS BPs and doubles bands are ok. The rest of their products, IMHO, are worthless. Still, I will not support them because they are a dishonest and unethical company.

If you like OMS, then by all means, buy their products. I'm just not a big supporter of them.