Cuba?

[Pam and Stella]

A freiend of mine said the waters of Cuba were phenomenal, unspoiled and so close to US of course. Has anyone been diving there?

[Zippsy]

try searching the caribbean forum or these threads where cuba is discussed:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34506&highlight=cuba
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27592&highlight=cuba

If you are American, you have immigration and Treasury hurdles to get over because we are still worried about the evil communist dictator taking over our minds.

[crazed_dolphin]

some�@liveaboards stop off islands off Cuba...islands that are slightly out of Cuban waters. Also if you are an American sometimes it is possible to get a special permit to visit Cuba for educational/cultural reasons. If you get that permit you are even allowed to import a small amount of Cuban products such as cigars.

[drbill]

There is at least one Mexican liveaboard that dives Cuba. Vessels under Mexican flags are allowed into Cuban territorial waters and you do not violate our silly little rules (if opening ip trade with China was a good thing, why isn't doing the same with Cuba? I remember as a young 14 year old reading about the Cuban missile crisis and wondering why the Russians couldn't have missiles in Cuba if we could have them in Turkey. Made absolutely no sense to me... then, or now. I guess I was just a Commie sympathizer from birth).

Dr. Bill

[raviepoo]

Take a look at this link if you're interested.

http://www.oceanus.com.mx/html/oceanus.html

The Oceanus travels to Cuba under circumstances that allow US citizens to go there legally.

Americans can get into Cuba through other countries such as Canada, Jamaica, Mexico, The Cayman Islands. Just don't mention to immigration that you have been to Cuba on your return to the USA. People still have problems with US customs and immigration if they admit that they have been to Cuba.

http://www.destinationcuba.com/whocanvisit.htm

[raviepoo]

Dr. Bill, you're obviously an America hater! Go back home to Afghanistan where you belong!

Disclaimer - The above sentiment was utterred with tongue firmly in cheek.
=-)


drbill once bubbled...
(if opening ip trade with China was a good thing, why isn't doing the same with Cuba?
Dr. Bill

[crazed_dolphin]

drbill once bubbled...
(if opening ip trade with China was a good thing, why isn't doing the same with Cuba? I remember as a young 14 year old reading about the Cuban missile crisis and wondering why the Russians couldn't have missiles in Cuba if we could have them in Turkey.
Dr. Bill


Or Vietnam? You can now use credit cards from US based banks in Vietnam nand US-Vietnam relations are warming up.

As for missles in Turkey...there hasn't been nuclear missles in Turkey since the 60s as result of the diplomacy during the Cuban missle crisis.

U.S. gave the following.
The old nuclear missles in Turkey that were scheduled to be replaced by new ones were never replaced by updated ones. The oldones were removed.
Never invade or help an invasion of Cuba that want to overthrown the current communist government.

In response the USSR agreed to remove the missles in Cuba.

[Rick Murchison]

Politics aside, the current law prohibits Americans from visiting Cuba for recreational purposes, and specifically prohibits spending any money there.
Over the years there have been several schemes to try to safely circumvent the law which have largely been ignored by the government, but occasionally the law has been enforced and substantial fines levied.
None of the schemes have held up in court - their success has been due to their not breaking the horizon on the government's radar scope, not their legality.
This is not a "current administration" issue. The law was written and passed long ago - those people I know of who have been fined were all prosecuted during the previous administration. I'd be surprised if there haven't been, but if there have been any prosecutions and fines in this one I'm unaware of it. However, given the announcement last week I'd say we may soon see some, and if I'd been to Cuba lately on a dive trip I'd be less than comfortable.
Rick

[drbill]

Ah raviepoo, I'm like Ben Franklin. Criticism of the actions and inconsistencies of our government is our duty as citizens. Why a different policy for Cuba than China or Vietnam (especially since the diving in the former two is much worse than Cuba!!)? You were tongue in cheek but some think I'm foot in mouth! Thanks for the link to Oceanus- that was the vessel I was thinking of.

Crazed_dolphin- I was referring to my feelings in the early 60's when the missiles were there. It made no sense at the time to me.

Dr. Bill

[Wristshot]

when I was in Cozumel in June, three guys (one from my group) went to Cuba for a visit. My friend only went for 3 days, so he wasn't diving. He wanted to experience the culture and the food. He said the music was great, and the people were wonderful. The food was good in places, but the abject poverty in places was sobering.

So why the story? Here's why. As Americans, we have all been told for years that we are not allowed to go to Cuba. Well guess what: Cuba doesn't mind us visiting and dropping a few dollars on their island, so they welcome US visitors. Once you are in Mexico, they are not obligated to enforce US laws about visiting Cuba. The Cubans even have a special "page" for your passport so that you don't get a permanent stamp (incriminating evidence) showing that you visited Cuba.

So if you really want to visit Cuba, you could just go to Mexico (or many other countries) and fly or boat over to Cuba.

Just a few tidbits to share,

Wristshot

[DandyDon]

drbill once bubbled...
I remember as a young 14 year old reading about the Cuban missile crisis and wondering why the Russians couldn't have missiles in Cuba if we could have them in Turkey. Made absolutely no sense to me... then, or now. I guess I was just a Commie sympathizer from birth).

Dr. Bill

Hey Bill - You remember Kruschev saying that he was "going to bury us!" :angry: MCarthyism was sick, but the threat of having Kruschev on the trigger of nuclear missles aimed at us, only 90 minutes away was bad. The movie "13 days" was probably an exaggerration, but it was scarey.

NOWADAYS, though - who cares? The U.S.S.R. is bankrupt, or is it non-existant, Cuba is a non-threat, why are we still afraid? :huh:

don

[DandyDon]

Wristshot once bubbled...
when I was in Cozumel in June, three guys (one from my group) went to Cuba for a visit. My friend only went for 3 days, so he wasn't diving. He wanted to experience the culture and the food. He said the music was great, and the people were wonderful. The food was good in places, but the abject poverty in places was sobering.

So why the story? Here's why. As Americans, we have all been told for years that we are not allowed to go to Cuba. Well guess what: Cuba doesn't mind us visiting and dropping a few dollars on their island, so they welcome US visitors. Once you are in Mexico, they are not obligated to enforce US laws about visiting Cuba. The Cubans even have a special "page" for your passport so that you don't get a permanent stamp (incriminating evidence) showing that you visited Cuba.

So if you really want to visit Cuba, you could just go to Mexico (or many other countries) and fly or boat over to Cuba.

Just a few tidbits to share,

Wristshot

I've heard of Americans coming back from Cuba to Coz and getting busted by U.S. agents on arrival - for spending money there. I'd love to try it, but what if something went wrong while there? Assistance would be very difficult. I guess I'm too old to be a covert operator.

[Wristshot]

Don, I don't see the reward being worth the risk (at this point)
There are enough "legal" places to go that I just don't have any strong desire to go over to Cuba. I suspect that it is really unlikely that someone going there would get busted, but it could happen. I personally knew of three guys that went without incident. Maybe in a couple years I will get more daring. Who knows what a few American dollars might be able to buy. . .

Would it be nice to visit Cuba? Yes. Is the diving good? From what I hear, that would be an emphatic yes. Is it worth the risk? That is a question each person has to answer for themselves. For me, it is not. There are enough places that I have not yet been that will keep me busy for years.

Wristshot

[crazed_dolphin]

Recently I saw one of the news shows doing a story on Americans visiting Cuba and being prosecuted by the US government after their return. The penalty was usually about $30,000.

[Epinephelus]

Let's be crystal clear here. It is illegal for a citizen of the United States to visit Cuba and spend money there without prior permission. Prior permission is possible to get for specific reasons, but a dive vacation ain't one of 'em. How one gets there is irrelevant. What the Cubans or Mexicans allow is irrelevant. Political affiliation or views are irrelevant. Every administration since the law's inception under Kennedy has prosecuted violators and fined them lots of money. In the cases I know of, the delay from the guilty party's return to the States and the first "knock on the door" has varied from six months to two years. The only common thread I've been able to discern on who gets "picked" is that in every case they have made their visit "common knowledge."
Sleep well...
E.

[crazed_dolphin]

Epinephelus once bubbled...
Let's be crystal clear here. It is illegal for a citizen of the United States to visit Cuba and spend money there without prior permission. Prior permission is possible to get for specific reasons, but a dive vacation ain't one of 'em.E.

Getting permission for "cultural exchange" can cover a lot of things. By diving you are learning about Cuba's natural environment and can be considered educational.

[crazed_dolphin]

"Is it illegal for U.S. residents to travel to Cuba?


No, it is not illegal for U.S. residents to travel to Cuba. An absolute ban was declared unconstitutional in 1963.

U.S. legislation only addresses spending money in Cuba. Naturally, as a traveler you require accommodations, food and other necessities � as such the law equates to a ban on travel for U.S. residents.

Exceptions are allowed through licenses issued by the U.S. Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC)."

[sdwho]

Leaving aside the political and legal pros and cons, how is the diving in Cuba? A couple of years ago we were in Cayman and ended up on a day trip with some German tourists who had just been in Cuba. They were very disappointed with the diving. While it is generally assumed that Cuban waters haven't been abused by overdiving and are "pristine", their experience was that the Cuban government has been particularly lax about environmental protection with the result that a lot of nasty run off has occurred, stressing the reef.

Anyone have their own first hand experience to report?

Seth

[DeepSeaFox]

Why would anyone support a regime such as the one operating in Cuba that ....


Kidnaps its suspected enemys including children from foriegn countries and takes them to Cuba to be held in strict confinement without charging them with any crime.

When there, because the suspects have no legal rights the regime can interrogate them indefinately, mentally torture them and threaten them with the death sentance whilst seeking confessions that would justify the larger actions of the regime.

The head of the regime claims that these are "all bad people" yet many have been released and repatriated without any charge or any justification for months of imprisonment.


Surely any of us with a concience should do anything (even missing Diving opportunties :confused: ) to protest such a regime.

Lucky we have the Americans to proctect us from those damm Cubans eh !

[crazed_dolphin]

OTE]DeepSeaFox once bubbled...
Why would anyone support a regime such as the one operating in Cuba that ....[/QUOTE]

I was wondering do you own a car that entirely run on electricity? If not then you have been funding terrorism. By buying petroleum products you've been paying the Saudi government, which in turn had been paying "protection" money to terror organizations so they wouldn't get attacked. Very recently they've discovered that it wasn't working anymore. Also the Saui government uses torture on regular basis, women aren't allowed to drive.

How many of us buy Chinese made products or ever visited China(which includes Hong Kong since 1999)? China still cracks down on dissedents and is trying to wipe out the Tibetan culture.

Why is Cuba being targeted? Maybe because Florida is so close to it? Cuba is no where near the threat that Saudi Arabia is.

[crazed_dolphin]

Interesting thing is that Castro was a recreational SCUBA diver until his health started failing.

[DeepSeaFox]

crazed_dolphin once bubbled...

I was wondering ...

Why is Cuba being targeted? Maybe because Florida is so close to it? Cuba is no where near the threat that Saudi Arabia is. [/B]

It seems that the sarcasim in my message went over your head.

Do you know who is doing the things I described ?

[crazed_dolphin]

Sorry about that, I was wondreing about that. Especially the last sentence. You are refering to the US confinement of prisoners in Gitmo( Guantanamo, Cuba) along with some other things.

BTW, looks like you're close to where I am. I'm in Kanagawa-ken.

[DeepSeaFox]

crazed_dolphin once bubbled...
You are refering to the US confinement of prisoners in Gitmo( Guantanamo, Cuba) along with some other things.



No, I was just trying to be ironic about Guantanamo.

It just seems unfathomable that the US is still peeved with Cuba for reasons that noone alive can clearly remember, such that they stop their citizens diving there for no currently relavent reason.

Yet... the same government are hapilly using Cuban soil to put themselves outside all international laws and acting beyond the moral limits of any developed society.



Oh and your correct, I live in Shinagawa, not too far at all.

[Axeman]

Well to answer some of the questions, the diving in Cuba is awesome. Pristine reefs, lots of fish, wrecks are nice too.

I have met some americans while down there. They tell me that they do not get their passports stamped. So if your passport is not stamped then they have to prove that not only you went there but that you spent money.

I have been to Cuba a bunch of times and the food and diving were great. The people are super friendly. They invite you right into their homes, and share their modest lifestyle with you.

I am sorry that you poor americans can't join me. :(

[raviepoo]

This farce of an embargo is perpetuated by politicians who value the latino vote in the state of Florida.


dandydon once bubbled...

NOWADAYS, though - who cares? The U.S.S.R. is bankrupt, or is it non-existant, Cuba is a non-threat, why are we still afraid? :huh:
don

[adshepard]

raviepoo once bubbled...
This farce of an embargo is perpetuated by politicians who value the latino vote in the state of Florida.



This is so true. The Berlin Wall fell not due to an embargo but due to the creep of capitalism and the desire for a better life. Cuban communism won't fall until the embargo is lifted. The personal hatred by Cuban-Americans of Fidel Castro makes them want the embargo. Politicians wanting their vote and their money do what they want. Hell Bush wouldn't be president if it weren't for the Cuban-American vote and he's pandering to them again.

My wife is one of those Cuban-Americans and it took me years to have her see the light over this issue. Even now it bothers her to see this fact, she hates Castro so much.

Hoping that Cuba opens up and that old deeds and titles (smuggled out) hold as my wife's family has lots of shore property there. The deeds in old East Germany held for West Germans so maybe, just maybe we can have Cuban shore property one day.

DSDO

Alan

[terrydarc]

For Cuba from Mexico. Mexicana and Cubana both fly Cancun to Havana (and back :)). I would recommend the lonely planet thorn tree on Cuba for info on diving there as well as the logistics of overcoming el presidente's prejudice against US citizens traveling there.

http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com