Am in a quandry. I've gotten into UW photography but I find that I don't have enough bottom time with compressed air. Am seriously considering to take a course in nitrox or use of a rebreather.
From what I understand, nitrox will increase bottom time, but I find the amount of equipment needed in each dive is just too many. What more with a camera to boot.
From what I've read so far with rebreathers, they offer about the same capabilities in terms of bottom time and depth as nitrox with fewer equipment. The added advantage is that there's very little or no bubbles at all to scare the fish. But on the other hand, I've read of 2 deaths already in this forum from use of a rebreather. One of those deaths happened here in the Philippines early this year.
My objectives are:
1. Increased bottom times
2. Increased depth (in case I want to shoot some wrecks)
3. Simplified number of equipment
Any advice?
Best,
Hory
Don Burke
October 14th, 2003, 09:00 PM
Hory once bubbled... Am in a quandry. I've gotten into UW photography but I find that I don't have enough bottom time with compressed air. Am seriously considering to take a course in nitrox or use of a rebreather.
From what I understand, nitrox will increase bottom time, but I find the amount of equipment needed in each dive is just too many. What more with a camera to boot.
From what I've read so far with rebreathers, they offer about the same capabilities in terms of bottom time and depth as nitrox with fewer equipment. The added advantage is that there's very little or no bubbles at all to scare the fish. But on the other hand, I've read of 2 deaths already in this forum from use of a rebreather. One of those deaths happened here in the Philippines early this year.
My objectives are:
1. Increased bottom times
2. Increased depth (in case I want to shoot some wrecks)
3. Simplified number of equipment
Any advice?
Best,
Hory Nitrox doesn't require any more equipment than air. You'll probably end up using bigger tanks to take advantage of the longer times.
There are lots of parts and pieces involved with rebreathers.
Go with nitrox first since you'll need that training if you go to a rebreather anyway.
gxdoyle
October 15th, 2003, 12:22 AM
I use a Draeger rebreather for underwater photography (which I am not very good at) and find that for SHALLOW diving - around reefs etc - it is great. The equipment makes you more streamlined in the water and the benefits of less bubbles when trying to get close to fish are well known. Problem s with a rebreather include (a) renting one (b) transporting the custom sized bottles by air if you own one (c) getting fills.
IMHO, using a rebreather is no more dangerous than diving with nitrox. The problems of oxygen toxicity and running out of gas are the same whichever way you dive. ..Plan your dive, dive your plan and you'll be fine. A good nitrox computer with a depth alarm is a useful backup - but no replacement for not being an idiot.
For wrecks you might want to consider doing a combined EXTENDED RANGE and DECOMPRESSION PROCEDURES course and diving with a technical setup (twin tanks / redundant regs etc). This is good for wrecks up to maybe 50 meters depending on your narcosis tolerance. Beyond that you should consider a trimix course - which will train you up to 100 meters.
After that you could even consider a Closed Circuit Rebreather course and combine trimix and a rebreather...( :boom: just kidding ..I am not recommending this)
HOWEVER, then you start running into the problem of your gear not being able to go as deep as you. I have yet to see any housings that a manufacturer will rate beyond 80 metres.
Needless to say, I would be happy to teach you any of the above or advise a good school in the Philipines! ;)
Manos
October 15th, 2003, 02:38 AM
>> using a rebreather is no more dangerous than diving with nitrox <<
Not quite true. Rebreathers are much more complicate devices comparing to your regs and tanks. They also need great care and maintenance.
One of your aims is also to simplify equipment Nitrox will Not make
your equipment more complicate.
I do uw photography in wrecks deeper than 50m with average bt. 30-35 minutes. I never used a rebreather unless my subject is marine life. But again start from the basics , do your Nitrox , course learn how to decompress in water if you want to dive deeper and longer .
Nitrox and rebreathers will not take you deeper , you will need
proper training and the use of triox or trimix to acomplish that.
What i sugest is that you find a DIR F. course instructor in your area and he will guide you through the right steps. Dont just take the word of each wiskid that tell you to get a rebreather and
shoot for the deep.
Manos.
www.dir.cy.net
gxdoyle
October 15th, 2003, 03:05 AM
Many's recommendation to seek proper training is correct. But he makes a mistake being so partisan on this board (he is a GUE proponent..I am a TDI instructor..in most cases trying to combine these is like lighting a match while filling 100% o2 in a petrol station!)
There are many certifying agencies for you to consider. More important than the agency is the individual instructor. Yopu will find many TDI, IANTD and DSAT instructors adopting and incorporating GUE/DIR fundamentals in their own courses (as I do). Some agencies support solo diving (eg TDI) and others do not which has an impact on photographers. Most photogrphers do not like to dive with buddies and photogrpahers make extremely bad buddies in my experience. A guy wanting to solo technical dives to take photos probably would not fit into GUE, but he would become a better diver through having undergone their training and incorporated the bits that make sense to his individual objectives.
Many is also correct about some additional complications in nitrox . However, again IMHO, while the specific dangers might be a little different, the TOTAL potential danger is the same whether you are diving open cicruit nitrox or semi-closed nitrox.
These are big decisions you are making - the sensible thing to do is lots of research. Check out all of the forums and the websites of all the certifying agencies. When you find a potential instructor ask him if you can talk to some of his former students.
Happy diving.
BTW... if you get some good wreck pictures send them to us and we will post them on our site so people can contact you if they want a photographer in the philipines.
Hory
October 15th, 2003, 08:43 AM
Gentlemen,
Thank you for all your suggestions. I will take up the nitrox course first and decide what to do from there.
gxdoyle, yes you are right. Photographers are bad buddies. My wife can attest to this. Perhaps I should set her up with her own rig...
Once I do get some good wreck photos, I will send it to this forum. I will be going to Coron next weekend to do some wreck dives. A fleet of Japanese transport ships were sunk by the US Navy around this area. Will share some of the pix I get (provided some of them turn up ok).
Thanks for the advise!
Best,
Hory
vlada
October 15th, 2003, 08:49 AM
I used to be at the same cross roads that you are now. I wanted to take pics of deeper wrecs in the great Lakes which meant deeper dives, some deco, stage bottle - all while managing the camera aspect. What i found is that i was feeling very uncomfortable pushing my limits like that and the result was very obvious in the pics (they were crap)
What worked for me was getting some tech training first - learning to manage all the equipment, stages, deco, etc., until it became almost a second nature - and then i added the camera again - the difference in my comfort level was amazing
I'll second Manos's recommendation for DIR-F course - if you are not more comfortable/confident about your skills after that course - ask for your money back :)
Safe Dives
Vlada
Vlada's Albums (http://community.webshots.com/user/dekina-date)
gxdoyle
October 15th, 2003, 08:59 AM
Very nice pictures Vlada..I was tempted to steal a few for our collection of "Great Wreck Pictures' but I controlled myself..
SCUBAMedicBill
October 15th, 2003, 09:44 AM
Great pictures. I especially like the Bay Island Aggressor shots. Was that a good trip? I'm thinking of going this year.
Thanks,
Bill
Marvintpa
October 16th, 2003, 01:05 PM
You may find you have to ask yourself: how deep do I wanna go? and how long do I wanna spend there? Those answers will tell you what you need to work towards in terms of training. Granted, the answers can change over time (deeper/longer), but set a reasonable goal and get the training to make it happen. You may find you can get away with a large single tank and H-valve (simple), or need something more robust (more complicated).
Getting a rebreather likely won't simplify your equipment load.
Manos once bubbled...
>> using a rebreather is no more dangerous than diving with nitrox <<
Not quite true. Rebreathers are much more complicate (sic) devices comparing to your regs and tanks. They also need great care and maintenance.
One of your aims is also to simplify equipment Nitrox will Not make
your equipment more complicate.
I do uw photography in wrecks deeper than 50m with average bt. 30-35 minutes. I never used a rebreather unless my subject is marine life. But again start from the basics , do your Nitrox , course learn how to decompress in water if you want to dive deeper and longer .
Nitrox and rebreathers will not take you deeper , you will need
proper training and the use of triox or trimix to acomplish that.
Manos.
www.dir.cy.net
Manos actually got it right by quoting this statement: >>using a rebreather is no more dangerous than diving with nitrox <<
Using a rebreather is just like doing any kind of technical diving. It has its own unique characteristics. It is actually more like flying an airplane than diving in this respect: If you learn to do your pre-flight checks and checklists religiously, check your gauges while you fly (dive), and do your postflight checks and checklists properly, it is no more complicated than any deep-diving task or than utilization of "breathing gases other than air"!
You may not be ready, at your current stage of training, to jump into rebreather use, and I would go with some of the other writers here who have recommended further technical training first. I will just mention, however, that the greatest living underwater photographers now use rebreathers of some variety for their work. They WILL take you deeper, longer, and fish are just FRIENDLIER when you are using a CCR.
Manos forgot to mention that he is a Luddite from the Amish Diving Society, Int'l. (We don't need no stinking machines!) and unfortunately believes that decompression is a race to the surface, which is, of course, a very bad way of looking at the proposition (Reference previous post on this Board by Manos wherein he stated that he laughed at the other divers because he hit the boat ahead of them.) :nono:
ScubaSky
October 16th, 2003, 03:09 PM
One thing that really wasn't addressed? I think:
is the fact that you may be able to have longer bottom times while using Nitrox, but your depth is limited due to PO2 levels. you will run into the same problem with a rebreather. What depths are you looking at diving?
Another thing to remember IMO is that photography gets a lot tougher the deeper you go I prefer to take my photos in the 0 - 70 ft range, which Nitrox is the best option to increase you bottom time. Besides the fact that re-breathers are typically EXPENSIVE!
BigJetDriver
October 16th, 2003, 08:41 PM
ScubaSky once bubbled...
One thing that really wasn't addressed? I think:
is the fact that you may be able to have longer bottom times while using Nitrox, but your depth is limited due to PO2 levels. you will run into the same problem with a rebreather. What depths are you looking at diving?
Another thing to remember IMO is that photography gets a lot tougher the deeper you go I prefer to take my photos in the 0 - 70 ft range, which Nitrox is the best option to increase you bottom time. Besides the fact that re-breathers are typically EXPENSIVE!
These are actually good points to bring up, ScubaSky! Your depth would be limited to 130 fsw on NN32, but you are quite right that most of the most colorful subjects for photography are in the 0 to 70 (ish) fsw range. Nitrox will give you more bottom time, and a rebreather even more so! You are right, however, when you point out that the buggers ARE expensive!;)
flw
October 17th, 2003, 05:08 AM
BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...
<SNIP GOOD STUFF>
Manos forgot to mention that he is a Luddite from the Amish Diving Society, Int'l. (We don't need no stinking machines!) and unfortunately believes that decompression is a race to the surface, which is, of course, a very bad way of looking at the proposition (Reference previous post on this Board by Manos wherein he stated that he laughed at the other divers because he hit the boat ahead of them.) :nono:
But for a giggle, did you notice, that in spite of that if you looked at his 73m/13 minute dive his RT was 70 minutes - hardly a raced deco, so perhaps he just talks so ( which is worse :) )
Albion
October 17th, 2003, 10:39 PM
all bleat about being picked on for no reason then this guy pops up in a discussion about extending bottom times to recemend DIR-F
flw once bubbled...
But for a giggle, did you notice, that in spite of that if you looked at his 73m/13 minute dive his RT was 70 minutes - hardly a raced deco, so perhaps he just talks so ( which is worse :) )
BigJetDriver
October 18th, 2003, 07:08 AM
gxdoyle once bubbled...
I use a Draeger rebreather for underwater photography and find that for SHALLOW diving - around reefs etc - it is great. The equipment makes you more streamlined in the water and the benefits of less bubbles when trying to get close to fish are well known.
IMHO, using a rebreather is no more dangerous than diving with nitrox. The problems of oxygen toxicity and running out of gas are the same whichever way you dive. ..Plan your dive, dive your plan and you'll be fine. A good nitrox computer with a depth alarm is a useful backup - but no replacement for not being an idiot.
HOWEVER, then you start running into the problem of your gear not being able to go as deep as you. I have yet to see any housings that a manufacturer will rate beyond 80 metres.
;)
GX,
Sorry I missed this the first time around. A couple of questions if I may:
(1) While I do not dive the Draeger, as a CCR diver I am often asked about it. How is the parts and service situation out in the field---(Way out in the field, so to speak, judging by your location!)---these days? Are you having any trouble getting support? People here in the US are having trouble, judging by the number of complaints, since the change-over.
(2) Have you checked with Gates for housings? Their housings are rated for 300 fsw, and a lot of divers say they will go deeper. Just a thought.;)
gxdoyle
October 18th, 2003, 08:43 PM
Better late than never!
Thanks for the advice on housings - I will check it out. I have a new EOS 10D that I am desparate to get underwater.
Regarding the Drager. We have not noticed the problems that you mention. I find the unit extremely simple to operate and maintain. The design is very straightforward and with proper maintenance, parts replacement is not often required.
That said...I am switching over to the Inspiration CCR almost immediately (although there is a 12 week wait for a unit and I have not put my order in yet)..and in fact am now in Australia doing some more training / diving on the Inspiration.
Compared to the Draeger the Inspiration is (a) enormously complicated and (b) mind-blowingly expensive and my interest in it is only for deep diving to (a) save on the cost of Helium and (b) preserve the wrecks we dive by greatly reducing the amount of o2 released into the wrecks. I was diving on a wreck in Thailand..the King Cruiser..a few weeks ago when it began collapsing in on itself due to accelerated corrision from so many OC Nitrox divers filling the place with o2.
Greg
BigJetDriver
October 18th, 2003, 10:13 PM
gxdoyle once bubbled...
......and (b) preserve the wrecks we dive by greatly reducing the amount of o2 released into the wrecks. I was diving on a wreck in Thailand..the King Cruiser..a few weeks ago when it began collapsing in on itself due to accelerated corrosion from so many OC Nitrox divers filling the place with o2.
Greg
Really incredible! That's one use for CCR's I had never thought of!:wacko:
Cheers, mate! Let us all know how you are enjoying your diving with your new Turtle (in a few weeks)!:D
