Stage Regs

[water goose]

What regs are you using on ur stage bottles

[Tortuga68]

Apeks DSTs - turret makes for nice hose routing both stowed and deployed (okay, photo is not a great example of stage bottle hose stowing, but that's my fault not the regs). I later changed the TX40 second stages for ATX40s, bit smaller and lighter

101348

[lowviz]

I use MK17's for everything, "the kid" uses XTX200's and MK14's for deco. -Not like we are ever going to agree on anything...

[Centrals]

Apeks DST, DS4, US1 and US4.
I also prefer long LP hose so the 2nd stage will come over from my right shoulder.

[Tortuga68]

I use MK17's for everything, "the kid" uses XTX200's and MK14's for deco. -Not like we are ever going to agree on anything...

Sings: You like pistons, he likes diaphragms. He likes diaphragms, you like pistons. Pistons, diaphragms, diaphragms, pistons, let's call the whole thing off..

[Levigarrett]

Admittedly, I'm not sporting the sexiest stage bottle reg.:eyebrow: I'm using an Oceanic Alpha 8 second on a SP5 first that I converted to DIN. For me, I didn't want to spend huge sums on this setup but I wasn't willing to go super budget either. I happy with the performance/cost relationship on this purchase. It's about a $200 dollar setup. The reg has been without fault so far. It is unbalanced however.

[ajduplessis]

MK17's and DS4's. If I could do it ove,r I would change everthing to MK17's includung those on my doubles.

[Jim Lapenta]

In process of switching over to HOG D-1's from Sherwood, Oceanic, and Scuba Pro's.

[HenrikBP]

SP MK10 DIN with a well used G250.

Henrik

[lewisevans]

I use Dive Rite RG3000's

[mathauck0814]

Hog D2

[parzdiver]

OMS Workhorse (DIN) and ScubaPro MK3 /w 108 (Yoke).

The MK3 is just for "play" right now. Haven't fully bench tested it as of yet.

[LiteHedded]

scubapro mk16s and mk25s with old style g250s on everything

[50Fathom]

Current setup is

Mk2 DIN with G200B for O2 bottle. (For 20 feet, the Mk2 is all you should need, plus it has O2-compatible parts available.)

Mk20 DIN with G250V for 50% bottle. (Same deal on O2 parts. And the swivel DOES make for nice routing, I'll admit.)

Would be all Mk17s/G250Vs, but $$$ is slowing the changeover, (low priority). The G250Vs are for sure, but I'm still up in the air about diaphragms for stage/deco regs. And I'm a committed hardcore diaphragm guy with Mk17s as backgas regs. Plus, SP is pissy about releasing O2-compatible parts for the Mk17. I know the o-rings are good to go, and the HP seats are Nylon-6,6, which is pretty dang O2-safe, but there is still the issue of the diaphragm being a huge source of fuel, (at least with pure O2) and the standard diaphragm-reg flooding issues. However, I am to understand that with proper turn-on procedures, (purge depressed and turning the knob SLOOOOOOOOOOW), flooding damage can be mitigated.

I'll probably eventually go to Mk17s for everything save the O2 bottle, which for 20 and 10 feet, a Mk2 is fine.

[DA Aquamaster]

Sings: You like pistons, he likes diaphragms. He likes diaphragms, you like pistons. Pistons, diaphragms, diaphragms, pistons, let's call the whole thing off..The Mk 14 is a diaphragm reg - not a great diaphragm reg, but it is one none the less.

[DA Aquamaster]

I use MK 17 G250Vs for back gas and Mk 10 G250s for stage regs, and Mk 9 G250s for deco regs. (The Mk 9 is just a Mk 10 with a non-swiveling 5 port cap, so its simpler and even more idiot proof.)

I prefer the fully sealed Mk 17 for back gas use and I prefer the hose routing on both back mount and sidemount doubles.

The choice of the Mk 10 for stage use is based on it having good performance even at depth, low cost, cheap annual service parts and a great shelf life. For deco use it is also O2 friendly enough, easy to 02 clean and will survive a flood with no issues.

Maintence wise I only need to stock 3 kits to service everything - Mk 17 kits, MK 10 kits and G250V kits.

---

Mk 2s, Mk 3s, Mk 200s and Mk 2 Plusses all make good deco regs, but they lack the performance needed for stage use. They also make great inflation bottle regs though and I use a Mk 3 in that capacity.

[the wart]

MK 18 with R295 2nd and an Apeks TX40

I like having different regs for different gases, easy to identify with your eyes closed.

[Tortuga68]

The Mk 14 is a diaphragm reg - not a great diaphragm reg, but it is one none the less.

Well yeah, that's what the song is about - you see, there are these two divers...

[Pullmyfinger]

I use Dive Rite RG3100's.

-Mitch

[mikecotrone]

Apeks DST First Stage and XTX50 Second Stage. The turret makes it easier to deploy. I am also using an inline shutoff valve so I don't run the risk of free flowing without knowing it. I use AL40's commonly which are pretty slim so I would probably catch a stage reg free slow pretty quick. However when I use my AL80 stages they are more bulky and I could go a while without realizing I was free flowing. :)

[DA Aquamaster]

Apeks DST First Stage and XTX50 Second Stage. The turret makes it easier to deploy. I am also using an inline shutoff valve so I don't run the risk of free flowing without knowing it. I use AL40's commonly which are pretty slim so I would probably catch a stage reg free slow pretty quick. However when I use my AL80 stages they are more bulky and I could go a while without realizing I was free flowing. :)That's an interesting and overly complex approach. I just close the valve on the stages not currently being used. Breathing the reg down and rolling the valve back on is also part of the gas switch process.

[LeadTurn_SD]

Scubapro Mk5/109 adjustable, or Mares MR-12 and whatever spare 2nd stage I have laying around.... ;)

Best wishes.

[mikecotrone]

Shutoff valves are overly Complex? Wow, please explain. Granted I am a newbie compared to you, but I don't understand the complexity?

I have the valves shut when I start the dive and when I switch gases I turn to on.

[lowviz]

Shutoff valves are overly Complex? Wow, please explain. Granted I am a newbie compared to you, but I don't understand the complexity?

I have the valves shut when I start the dive and when I switch gases I turn to on.

-one more thing to freak you in a panic situation.

[mikecotrone]

-one more thing to freak you in a panic situation.

Yes however I would prefer to deal with a quick slide as part of my gas switch vs. finding out my 80% O2 leaked to 500psi due to a free flow because I forgot that my venturi was open too much :) I guess we all have our own threshold for Freak Out panic situations :)

[lowviz]

Yes however I would prefer to deal with a quick slide as part of my gas switch vs. finding out my 80% O2 leaked to 500psi due to a free flow because I forgot that my venturi was open too much :) I guess we all have our own threshold for Freak Out panic situations :)

Your choice.

I'm fresh back from a cave cert where I rolled one of my valves for real and neglected to open my sling bottle when I retrieved it. Only one of the three regs I could breathe was working, good chug of water, spent 2 mins coughing 300' from the entrance to my instructor's delight. -didja learn anything???? PM me for my instructor's name and contact if you want to call me on it...

[mikecotrone]

Your choice.

I'm fresh back from a cave cert where I rolled one of my valves for real and neglected to open my sling bottle when I retrieved it. Only one of the three regs I could breathe was working, good chug of water, spent 2 mins coughing 300' from the entrance to my instructor's delight. -didja learn anything???? PM me for my instructor's name and contact if you want to call me on it...

That sucks! :) I did that also on my first two deco dives, but I got used to it. Cave just adds another level of inherent complexity vs. open water anyway so I am sure I would probably drop the shutoffs at that point also. Were you doing Intro?

[Levigarrett]

Yes however I would prefer to deal with a quick slide as part of my gas switch vs. finding out my 80% O2 leaked to 500psi due to a free flow because I forgot that my venturi was open too much :) I guess we all have our own threshold for Freak Out panic situations :)

Did you just say 80% O2? Oh boy, here we go again..........:no: I kid.:D




Regarding your preoccupation with stage reg free flow...are you solo diving? I suspect that if my team members are the calibre that I'd choose to be diving with (conducting the kind of diving where stage bottles are required) they'd notice my reg free flow and take appropriate action. When I dive with a slung bottle of any kind, the valve is opened on the surface, the lines pressurized and then the valve is closed until it's use is required. I could be reading your post wrong and if so I apologize in advance but are you diving with your stage bottles "on?"

[lowviz]

That sucks! :) I did that also on my first two deco dives, but I got used to it. Cave just adds another level of inherent complexity vs. open water anyway so I am sure I would probably drop the shutoffs at that point also. Were you doing Intro?

Yes it sucked.

Here is where age departs from energy and enthusiasm. I am mortal. I am playing the game with the only life I will ever get.

Full cave.

Go for it brother diver, just don't kill yourself...

[lowviz]

Did you just say 80% O2? Oh boy, here we go again..........:no: I kid.:D




Regarding your preoccupation with stage reg free flow...are you solo diving? I suspect that if my team members are the calibre that I'd choose to be diving with (conducting the kind of diving where stage bottles are required) they'd notice my reg free flow and take appropriate action. When I dive with a slung bottle of any kind, the valve is opened on the surface, the lines pressurized and then the valve is closed until it's use is required. I could be reading your post wrong and if so I apologize in advance but are you diving with your stage bottles "on?"

Pressurize travel bottle, turn off, tie off on gold line (main line in a cave) at first third, recover on exit, OPEN (duh)...

[Levigarrett]

Pressurize travel bottle, turn off, tie off on gold line (main line in a cave) at first third, recover on exit, OPEN (duh)...

Apparently this is not the "only" way. That's why I'm questioning. I can't imagine swimming around with my slung or staged bottle open but I guess some are doing it and I'd like to know why they favor that approach.

[lowviz]

Apparently this is not the "only" way. That's why I'm questioning. I can't imagine swimming around with my slung or staged bottle open but I guess some are doing it and I'd like to know why they favor that approach.

Two different things.

Swim around with your stage open or closed: -your choice.

Tie stage off and leave it somewhere: turn off, tie off, retrieve, turn on.

hope this helps.

[mikecotrone]

Did you just say 80% O2? Oh boy, here we go again..........:no: I kid.:D

Haha Nice! :) I would have said 100% but I just saw a thread that made me laugh about not using 100% :)





Regarding your preoccupation with stage reg free flow...are you solo diving? I suspect that if my team members are the calibre that I'd choose to be diving with (conducting the kind of diving where stage bottles are required) they'd notice my reg free flow and take appropriate action. When I dive with a slung bottle of any kind, the valve is opened on the surface, the lines pressurized and then the valve is closed until it's use is required. I could be reading your post wrong and if so I apologize in advance but are you diving with your stage bottles "on?"
I am not solo diving, but I do take the approach of self sufficiency/redundancy. To be clear I open my slung cylinder valve at the surface and shutoff my inline sliding valve at the second stage. When I deploy/gas switch I just switch the inline valve over to on and begin using it. I like using them so far since I don't have to worry about turning on the cylinder valve underwater.

[mikecotrone]

Yes it sucked.

Here is where age departs from energy and enthusiasm. I am mortal. I am playing the game with the only life I will ever get.

Full cave.

Go for it brother diver, just don't kill yourself...

I hear ya buddy :) Great job on Full Cave!!

[mikecotrone]

Apparently this is not the "only" way. That's why I'm questioning. I can't imagine swimming around with my slung or staged bottle open but I guess some are doing it and I'd like to know why they favor that approach.

I do this ONLY if I am using inline shutoff valves at the second stage. If I am not using the shutoff valves then I will keep the cylinder valve shut after I pressurize the line at the surface. When I deploy I would just turn the cylinder valve back on. :)

These little guys:

http://www.divegearexpress.com/regulators/adapters.shtml#31

[Levigarrett]

Two different things.

Swim around with your stage open or closed: -your choice.

Tie stage off and leave it somewhere: turn off, tie off, retrieve, turn on.

hope this helps.

Yeah, sorry for the confusion. I was incorrectly using the terms stage and sling as though they were the same thing. Thanks.

[elan]

Haha Nice! :) I would have said 100% but I just saw a thread that made me laugh about not using 100% :)



I am not solo diving, but I do take the approach of self sufficiency/redundancy. To be clear I open my slung cylinder valve at the surface and shutoff my inline sliding valve at the second stage. When I deploy/gas switch I just switch the inline valve over to on and begin using it. I like using them so far since I don't have to worry about turning on the cylinder valve underwater.
If your first stage freeflows will shutoff valve work as an over pressure valve by releasing the excess pressure?

If it will then it will freeflow as well essentially bringing you to square one if it will not the lp hose will be blown off your first stage due to high pressure and you will lose you reg which you could have used otherwise even if it flows

[lowviz]

Yeah, sorry for the confusion. I was incorrectly using the terms stage and sling as though they were the same thing. Thanks.

They could be the same thing...

:D

[mikecotrone]

If your first stage freeflows will shutoff valve work as an over pressure valve by releasing the excess pressure?

If it will then it will freeflow as well essentially bringing you to square one if it will not the lp hose will be blown off your first stage due to high pressure and you will lose you reg which you could have used otherwise even if it flows

No and maybe. :) When I referenced Free flow in my posts above I was talking about free flow because of the position of my Second stage (facing up) then it usually free flows when I am in colder water and deep. In my previous posts I wasn't referencing a free flow based on 1st stage failure. I hope this clears that part up. That is why I like the inline shutoff valve. It just takes muscle memory and training to remember to open when you deploy.

I am not sure if your scenario would be the case, but I am sure it's possible :) If I as unlucky enough to find myself in that position I would have to switch off to my contingency deco plan and use my backgas for Deco.

[Levigarrett]

They could be the same thing...

:D

Indeed

[Tortuga68]

To be clear I open my slung cylinder valve at the surface and shutoff my inline sliding valve at the second stage. When I deploy/gas switch I just switch the inline valve over to on and begin using it. I like using them so far since I don't have to worry about turning on the cylinder valve underwater.

Not to labour the point that others have already made, but... essentially what you're doing is replacing one valve with another valve, and creating additional potential problems in the process. Not sure why turning the cylinder valve on underwater would be something to worry about, is it the positioning or what is the issue?

[mikecotrone]

No to labour the point that others have already made, but... essentially what you're doing is replacing one valve with another valve, and creating additional potential problems in the process. Not sure why turning the cylinder valve on underwater would be something to worry about, is it the positioning or what is the issue?

Its not a problem .. I am new so my muscle memory says it's easier to click a slider than turn a valve. That will change with Experience I am sure :) I do like the simplicity of the slider though. :)

[Tortuga68]

Well.. the way to build muscle memory is by practice, not by substituting another procedure ;)

[elan]

No and maybe. :) When I referenced Free flow in my posts above I was talking about free flow because of the position of my Second stage (facing up) then it usually free flows when I am in colder water and deep. In my previous posts I wasn't referencing a free flow based on 1st stage failure. I hope this clears that part up. That is why I like the inline shutoff valve. It just takes muscle memory and training to remember to open when you deploy.

I am not sure if your scenario would be the case, but I am sure it's possible :) If I as unlucky enough to find myself in that position I would have to switch off to my contingency deco plan and use my backgas for Deco.

Well I understand that you referenced the second stage free flow but this fact does not prevent 1st stage freeflow from happening :)

And they do happen. Happened to me once this year

But regardless its for you and your team to manage those risks:)

[PfcAJ]

You WANT the 2nd stage to be able to freeflow... They work as an OPV should the first stage malfunction, resulting in high IP.

By leaving the system turned on and then shutting down the 2nd stage, you risk a hose rupture. This is why argon regs have an OPV installed.

[DA Aquamaster]

As Elan suggested earlier and as AJ elaborates above, an OPV of some sort is essential in the system.

Nearly all second stages use a downstream design so that it can vent excess pressure in the event of a leak in the high pressure seat in the first stage. The few regs that are not downstream biased use a separate OPV on the first stage or in the hose assembly.

If the HP seat is leaking into the Ip section of a reg that is pressurized but not being used, the IP will continue to build until the hose ruptures at somewhere between 300 and 500 psi depending on the hose. That will leave you with an unusable deco reg regardless of whether or not you lose all the gas.

So to accomodate your shut off valve (which is just a crutch for turning off the valve on an uinactive bottle) you have to add an OPV to the first stage. You've now added a valve that can fail (closed as well as open) a few more o-rings that can leak, and an OPV that can fail and/or leak.

As I stated initially - you've now added a great deal of complexity and the number of things that can now go wrong all to overcome a skills deficiency.

Let's just agree not to dive together until you get it figured out and start thinking through some of your configuration decisions.

----

An in line shut off only makes sense in a very limited range of applications - such as in the O2 line of an eCCR rebreather to allow a very rapid way to shut off and then manage the gas flow if a solennoid sticks and tries to continuously inject O2 into the loop. And even then the practice is questionable.

IMHO they have no place at all in an OC configuration.

[mikecotrone]

As Elan suggested earlier and as AJ elaborates above, an OPV of some sort is essential in the system.

Nearly all second stages use a downstream design so that it can vent excess pressure in the event of a leak in the high pressure seat in the first stage. The few regs that are not downstream biased use a separate OPV on the first stage or in the hose assembly.

If the HP seat is leaking into the Ip section of a reg that is pressurized but not being used, the IP will continue to build until the hose ruptures at somewhere between 300 and 500 psi depending on the hose. That will leave you with an unusable deco reg regardless of whether or not you lose all the gas.

So to accomodate your shut off valve (which is just a crutch for turning off the valve on an uinactive bottle) you have to add an OPV to the first stage. You've now added a valve that can fail (closed as well as open) a few more o-rings that can leak, and an OPV that can fail and/or leak.


I very much appreciate how you explained this to me. Also Thank you for not giving me some B.S. Soap Box type of "Because I said so and I have 10000+ dives" answer. This really helps me

I never did think about the pressurization through like that and it makes 100% sense. Obviously my drysuit 1st stage has an OPV, but since my instructor recommended the shutoff valve I kind of didn't research it like I would normally do. I do see that being a problem which indeed is a crutch for my newness to using stage bottles. I have not experienced a hose rupture yet so I really didn't think it was that common so I really appreciate the experienced explanation. I am not too proud to learn :)



As I stated initially - you've now added a great deal of complexity and the number of things that can now go wrong all to overcome a skills deficiency.

Let's just agree not to dive together until you get it figured out and start thinking through some of your configuration decisions.


Today I agree that I need to get more decompression dives under my belt in which I only have 5 so far. I am not experienced enough to dive with you or guys at your level yet for sure. After some more experience and since I have residence in NC/VA also perhaps we can dive together some day ;)



An in line shut off only makes sense in a very limited range of applications - such as in the O2 line of an eCCR rebreather to allow a very rapid way to shut off and then manage the gas flow if a solennoid sticks and tries to continuously inject O2 into the loop. And even then the practice is questionable.

IMHO they have no place at all in an OC configuration.

Totally makes sense!

[down4fun]

Its not a problem .. I am new so my muscle memory says it's easier to click a slider than turn a valve. That will change with Experience I am sure :) I do like the simplicity of the slider though. :)
Just going to add my two cents here spend it however you want :D
I have seen a rebreather diver with an inline shutoff on his bailout gas have a problem and it was enough for me not to ever use one. We were doing a shore dive out to a wall that drops off 300+. At about 70 feet he starts having a problem i can tell just by his body position, trim goes, fidgeting etc. I ask if he is okay and get the so-so and he points to his loop. I gesture that we thumb the dive. I tell him to hold so i can swim up and tell the others we are aborting. By the time i return he has bailed out. We start the swim back and he is wildly checking his gauge. I have my bailout bungied and by now have my reg in my hand for donation. We are both wearing two bailout a deep mix and a 50%, he goes to switch to his rich as he has run out of deep (that's another story) but the inline shutoff has a piece of shell stuck in it and he cant get gas. He ends up on my bailout while we get the shell out of his slide lock. Everything turned out fine but he was quite shaken. It was the typical not one thing goes wrong but three or four. Granted we had no deco and were shallow enough we could have gone for the surface if he had too. But had that been at the end of the dive planned it would have been another story. In any case I love to crawl through tight wrecks and can just imagine a piece of debris getting stuck just the way that shell did. SO no inline shutoffs for me. Deep mix is around my neck so i will know if it free flows and the deco gas is charged and turned off.

[DA Aquamaster]

I very much appreciate how you explained this to me. Also Thank you for not giving me some B.S. Soap Box type of "Because I said so and I have 10000+ dives" answer. This really helps me

I never did think about the pressurization through like that and it makes 100% sense. Obviously my drysuit 1st stage has an OPV, but since my instructor recommended the shutoff valve I kind of didn't research it like I would normally do. I do see that being a problem which indeed is a crutch for my newness to using stage bottles. I have not experienced a hose rupture yet so I really didn't think it was that common so I really appreciate the experienced explanation. I am not too proud to learn :)I came off a bit harsh and I apologize for that, but gas switches as still the number 1 killer of technical diving so I tend to discourage any corner cutting there as a matter of general principle.

You are correct that it is far too common to get an authoritarian "because someone said so" answer or to get a very non explanatory "just do it this way" answer or it's close cousin the "ask your instructor" answer.

In some cases it is to prevent someone from learning to dive on the Internet, but in some cases it is because the diver (who is often a very good diver who has solid techniques and lots of experience) was never fully told the reasons why and never thought it through. As an extreme example I spent about 10 minutes last winter assembling my gear and biting my tongue while a very well known and respected GUE instructor gave an incorrect mechanical explanation of regulator balancing as a justification for his configuration choices. The student was from Europe and obviously spent a great deal of money coming to the US to get instruction from this person. Now, there was no malice in giving the misinformation and it in no way reduces or suggests a lack of diving ability on his part, it just underscores the problem that develops when/if you learn the what or how of something without really thinking through the whys beyond "because so and so says so" or "because that's how lots of very knowledgable and experienced divers do it".

I encourage anyone to ask "why?" and if neccesary to keep asking why until you get to a solid explanation/rationale for doing it that way as well as the context of where and why the practice was developed. That approach will help you learn more as a diver and also works well in assessing how much a prospective buddy or instructor really knows about technical diving as opposed to just rote learning.

[mikecotrone]

I came off a bit harsh and I apologize for that, but gas switches as still the number 1 killer of technical diving so I tend to discourage any corner cutting there as a matter of general principle.

You are correct that it is far too common to get an authoritarian "because someone said so" answer or to get a very non explanatory "just do it this way" answer or it's close cousin the "ask your instructor" answer.

In some cases it is to prevent someone from learning to dive on the Internet, but in some cases it is because the diver (who is often a very good diver who has solid techniques and lots of experience) was never fully told the reasons why and never thought it through. As an extreme example I spent about 10 minutes last winter assembling my gear and biting my tongue while a very well known and respected GUE instructor gave an incorrect mechanical explanation of regulator balancing as a justification for his configuration choices. The student was from Europe and obviously spent a great deal of money coming to the US to get instruction from this person. Now, there was no malice in giving the misinformation and it in no way reduces or suggests a lack of diving ability on his part, it just underscores the problem that develops when/if you learn the what or how of something without really thinking through the whys beyond "because so and so says so" or "because that's how lots of very knowledgable and experienced divers do it".

I encourage anyone to ask "why?" and if neccesary to keep asking why until you get to a solid explanation/rationale for doing it that way as well as the context of where and why the practice was developed. That approach will help you learn more as a diver and also works well in assessing how much a prospective buddy or instructor really knows about technical diving as opposed to just rote learning.

Thanks again DA. I just removed all 4 shutoff valves from my 4 stage regulators. :) I will focus my skills / drills on my Sunday quarry dive to switching gases while opening my cylinder valve. ;)