Proper boat mooring

[simcoediver]

I have a question thats more or less directed to charter captains. My dive buddy and I prefer to bring our own boat to dive in Kingston and Tobermory for a number of reasons.We usually wait patiently for charter boats to leave their mooring before we tie up to it to dive and yes we do have a 3rd person in the boat. Now ,my question is---What is the proper procedure for us to follow when a charter boat comes along while we are there?Are we supposed to retie our boat up to your boat?[Thats not always easy to do!} Do charter boats expect to wait patiently for us to finish as well? I fully understand and respect the fact that charter boats are running a business and the last thing I would ever want to do is make a charter captain angry!So educate me on whats right!

[Warren_L]

I'm no charter captain by any stretch, but when we were diving the keystorm on saturday, there was a smaller boat there already on the mooring line. Our captain politely informed them that we were going to take the line and to have them tie off on us. Now whether that is the right way, I don't know. It's just what the captain did.

[Bob3]

It's generally considered courteous for the smaller vessle to allow the larger to tie off & then raft off of them. It also simplifys matters if the smaller will be leaving sooner.

[Col.Cluster]

You should confirm this with one of the charter operators. My understanding of the situation is that if you are tied off on a mooring then it is your mooring. If you refuse to allow another boat to tie off then all they can do is wait. Personally, I do not believe this is the wisest action to take. It is far more beneficial for all parties if you would surrender the mooring to the bigger boat and tie off behind. This fosters a positive relationship between all concerned and tends to be the unspoken etiquette between all the boat captains I have seen operating. Perhaps, Divedude or one of the others captains has time to offer some thoughts.

All the best
CC

[divedude]

Tough Question

I can only answer for the Kingston area and how we like things done.
Any one can use any mooring and almost all of Kingston's will support 3 or 4 boats tied to them at the same time. some of the graveyard ones we only like one large vessel on at a time, but all the local guys will just go to another if someone is already on them.
Some one should be on your vessel at all times.
If you are on a mooring and a larger boat comes up and ask permission to tie, then the smaller boat must give up and allow the larger boat to take the mooring, then raft or tie off behind.
You should always ask permission to enter the area of dive operations, not just for courtesy, but because it's the law and in the collision regulations. If any thing happened to a diver and you have not ask and been granted permission you can be charged with a criminal offense. I get a little Pi$$ed off when a boat comes flying up to me and throws a line at me without even checking to see were my divers are or asking permisson to come along side.

All of the regular charter captain's will allow another vessel to tie off, You do not have to wait, just call on VHF radio 16 or 10 If you do not have a VHF radio you shouldn't be out there.......

No one should have to wait "for they're turn" some times a captain will tell you that they will be done in 10 or 15 minutes and ask you to wait as they are recovering divers.

I have had small boats refuse to let me tie up and tell me "I was here first, it's my mooring".........NOT a good thing to say to me...

Who do they think put up the mooring in the first place????
Who do they think spliced the line they are on????
Who do they think put the 5 ton mooring block there???
Well I'll tell you who did... POW and who is POW? It's the local guys, mostly charter boat captains and dive store operator's
so without them no one has a nice mooring line and buoy to tie off too. In most other areas it's SOS and it's still made up of local guys in the area who work hard so anchor damage is no longer a danger and you have great wrecks to dive on.

I have my back yard shed filled with 10 POW/SOS mooring buoys, another 20 or so jugs, many feet of chain, about 2500 feet of mooring line, thimbles, huge connectors, and all the stuff needed to keep mooring in good shape. Lots of nights in the winter I sit and splice thimbles into line and inspect line so that we have everthing ready for the next season. I'm not the only one the other guys all do stuff like that. Ask Tom R he set up the times with the boats and divers last year so that mooring all went up in good time.

That being said most charter boat guys don't take it well when some boat with 3 or 4 divers tell them they can't have the line that they worked so hard to put there. but 99% of the time we never have any problems and people are understanding and courteous. Here in Kingston we usually ask for a donation to POW if you are using the mooring as they do cost money. We are not like Tobermory and have Parks Canada doing the work and collecting money for the moorings.

Not only do the Kingston area charter and stores do the work to maintain the mooring they pay a "mooring fee" so that we can afford to keep the POW mooring project going.

Check out POW (http://www.gtcs.org/pow.html) and support them if interested.

Damm I think this is the longest post I've ever posted........
I hope it answered your question. :D

[Groundhog246]

Well Said Jim.
If POW is putting in the buoys, then they're "private" buoys and POW can set the rules. If the charter operators are paying to moor, I think private boats should too. How well is it advertised? I'd suggest POW set out formal rules for use of moorings (duly voted on by the membership) and spring for some flyers for the dive shops and marinas and signs at boat launches. A sign along the lines of "Vessels on POW moorings must share the moorings by allowing a stern tie" would spell it out. Maybe you should have to be a member to use a POW mooring? At $20 a year a bargain. At the time they're signing up you could set out the "rules".
I'm not sure if Toby charges for a private boat to use a mooring (I know the local charter boats pay). I do know you have to check in with the park office for permission to use your own boat. And of course, you have to have a park tag.

Off topic rant I have found that for a sport that costs as much as this one, divers are pretty cheap bunch (myself included). I hear complaints about the cost of gear (LDS making too much), cost of air, cost of charters, cost of annual service, etc, etc. I chatted with a guy a while back, drove to Toby (3 hours each way), spent 2 nights in a motel room, rented gear for the weekend (what's about total here about $300 plus) and his big whine was the Park Tag, because THAT was perceived as a Government TAX.

[DA Aquamaster]

We have pretty much the same issue here with privately funded moorings and in general other divers who use them have chipped in on costs and materials. In a couple cases we have put in an additional mooring at the more popular sites ro avoid the need to raft one or more boats. Personally I like rafting as it offers additonal social opportunities but some other boat owners or operators are not always so accomodating.

But to be honest the limiting factor now is time and labor as there are limits to how much maintainence a few divers can do with a growing number of moorings.

I gotta agree with the off topic rant. People trash the local dive shops right and left for what they perceive as an unreasonable markup and then flock to Leisure Pro or other mail order/on-line dealers. They are also seriously short sighted as where exactly do they think they will get their air when they put the LDS out of business? It isn't cheap to own, operate or house a compressor or to maintain a full service dive shop but the LDS is considered evil if they can't match Leisure Pro prices.

The real unlikable divers are the ones who will go to the LDS to try on a wet suit, mask, BC or set of fins that the LDS has stocked at great expense and then go buy them online because they can get them a little cheaper.

The government tax thing is not limited to just divers. We have the governors cup pheasant hunt every year in South Dakota and it is not uncommon for a very well off individual to be invited to the hunt, arrive in their business jet (with operating and depreciation costs of $800 to $1500 per hour) and then complain about the cost of an out of state hunting license.

[knives]

still off topic...
Yes The GLUE (http://www.gluediveclub.com) likes to help POW out as well...without the excellent moorings , it would be difficult for any diver to access these great wrecks...:)

[pufferfish]

divedude once bubbled...

Here in Kingston we usually ask for a donation to POW if you are using the mooring as they do cost money. We are not like Tobermory and have Parks Canada doing the work and collecting money for the moorings.

Not only do the Kingston area charter and stores do the work to maintain the mooring they pay a "mooring fee" so that we can afford to keep the POW mooring project going.


I was out on a charter this spring up in Toby and one of the charter captains there was not happy with the way things are going up there with Parks Canada and wishing Toby could return to a voluntary system, "like they have in Kingston."

Not only did he feel the forever increasing Park fee was discouraging divers from coming to Toby (ah no, it might be the parking issue) but the dive shops and charter boats had to wait for Parks Canada to decide when they would put in the moorings. One of the Park's divers was on holidays, and because it was a commercial dive you had to have backup divers, etc. In other words he felt Parks Canada was not responsive to the local charter and shop owners needs. It sounded like it was our way and on our time for PC putting in the moorings. I guess the local shops and charter boats even offered to volunteer their time and services to Parks Canada but PC said no due to liability or Park diver availabilty issues, I believe. Keeping the placement of mooring buoys each spring in the hands of local shops and charter captains as in Kingston is probably the best way to go. The system is more flexible and repsonsive to local needs and the costs are kept down as one doesn't have Park divers who have all those expensive benefits to pay.

I agree with Groundhog in that if divers are paying a mooring fee on local charter boats then divers on private boats should also ante up. Some mechanism must exist to collect a fee either through POW membership or a locked mooring buoy where each diver can drop a toonie into it :D

[zboss]

I've got to say that the best mooring system, and thus I think a well-developed etiquette, is in the British Virgin Islands. All the dive sites which are regularly in use and are designated as national marine sanctuaries have multiple moorings - making diving very easy... Here is how they are designated:

White: Dive use by non-commercial boats on a first-come basis with a 90 minute time limit.
Red: Day use only by non-diving boats.
Blue: For use by dinghies only.
Yellow: Commercial dive boats only.
Large Yellow: Commercial, daysailing or large (over 55') boats.

In general - even though we have a private boat, we use the yellow one's anyhow. Keeping that in mind that we almost never come across sites that don't have a mooring available, the etiquette is different depending on the time at which either you approach a site or another boat approaches you...

1) If you are tied up and not suited up and a larger boat approaches... you unhook and allow them to hook and then you hook into them

2) If you are tied up and suited up and good to go and have the dive flag up... the boat cannot legally even approach your boat.

3) If you are tied up and finishing... the other boat floats for a minute or two until you are ready to go and you just leave

4) If you are approaching a dive site and see a boat moored and flying the flag - don't approach

5) If you are approaching aother vessel not flying the flag - ask to approach and tie off.

In any case - if you are at a popular site try to finish up what you are doing ASAP to free the mooring up.

[simcoediver]

Many thanks to all of you for enlightening me on mooring guidelines.It looks like the BVI have a terrific system in place and their rules are well established.however the multiple bouys of different colors would be too expensive here as I believe P.O.W has to take them out before the ice forms.I would be more than willing to do my part in paying a fee of 20 or 30 bucks a year to help pay for the use of mooring bouys ,sort of a permit system to use the moorings similar to trail permits issued to snowmobiles for trail use.Some sort of system would need to be set up,I dont know,perhaps by POW themselves.

[Tom R]

The colored bouys have been taken out already and the next mooring day is slated for the Saturday before the May 24 weekend. For those that haven't read the Sept issue of Diver it worth a read. POW can be contacted by email through Big Jim, myself or even the President himself wplum@rogers.com for further information.

Glad to see the pufferfish is still alive I was getting concerned as nothing in a couple of days.

Tom

[divedude]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...
Well Said Jim.
If POW is putting in the buoys, then they're "private" buoys and POW can set the rules. If the charter operators are paying to moor, I think private boats should too. How well is it advertised? I'd suggest POW set out formal rules for use of moorings (duly voted on by the membership) and spring for some flyers for the dive shops and marinas and signs at boat launches. A sign along the lines of "Vessels on POW moorings must share the moorings by allowing a stern tie" would spell it out. Maybe you should have to be a member to use a POW mooring? At $20 a year a bargain. At the time they're signing up you could set out the "rules".


POW has rules in place for use of the moorings and most of the local guy have the flyers on there boats and I think at least on of the stores have the flyers. POW has boxes that they bought and suppled for donations, but one store is using it for a "dive for a cure" donation box. POW has been around for 21 years and been working as best as they can to achieve wreck preservation. my wife and I have been members for 11 years and for 8, one or the other has been on the executive. Donna was the president for three years and vice pres. for 2 years.

Payment is a voluntary thing and POW will not restrict who can use the moorings. All we ask is you respect our rules and our moorings.

What POW needs now is Divers and people interested in old ships to jump in and help with a membership and/or a willingness to do what is needed to be done. We only have a few members about 16 right now and we can only do so much.

We have the GLUE club in Kingston that I've been told has about 100 members and they have helped, they have a mandate seems to be the same as POW's and they have only been around 2 years not 21. I wish POW could find the same support but we have no store front to advertise in. If any one wants to help check POW (http://www.gtcs.org/pow.html) or send me a PM. I'm the mooring director for POW.

[Groundhog246]

divedude once bubbled...

POW has rules in place for use of the moorings and most of the local guy have the flyers on there boats and I think at least on of the stores have the flyers.....Payment is a voluntary thing and POW will not restrict who can use the moorings. All we ask is you respect our rules and our moorings.

While I applaud your (POW'S) efforts, it's been my experience that people have less respect for FREE product or services. I used to belong to a group that ran family (parent/child) activities and heavily subsidised the kids to that all could participate. We found that if you didn't charge something, then very little value was placed on the activity or the people organizing. One example was a monthly roller skating session at a local roller rink. Admission and saktes were almost $5 (not much unless you're on a very low income with 2 or 3 kids). We'd get a small discount for having a group, Adults paid the discounted price and $1 each for kids, with the organization paying the rest. We tried it free a couple of times. Got more people out, but the ones that only showed up for the free event, were the ones who complained that it was too crowded, too loud, the skates weren't very good, why didn't we have free snacks and so on. Some came and skated for 20 to 30 minutes of a 3 hour session ("why not, it didn't cost anything" when I asked one lady).
On the other hand, if you charged , then they'd probably expect "better" moorings. So you probably can't "win".

[pufferfish]

Tom R once bubbled...
Glad to see the pufferfish is still alive I was getting concerned as nothing in a couple of days.


Just recharging the batteries after a week of writer's block ;)
I was wondering the same about DMI after he was 'chased' off the board. I kind of miss his provocative posts and hope he hasn't left permanently.

Ok back to the topic or thereabouts.

Divedude, just curious are the Brockville wrecks under the umbrella of POW? I don't know how many dives are completed in Kingston each year but in Brockville we recently calculated on the back of an envelope somewhere about 30,000 dives (boat and shore) per annum. If Kingston was in the same ballpark and you can find a mechanism to collect a buck a dive that is a lot of $$ for POW.

Maybe set up a daily and weekly dive rate, and a season's pass like they have at ski hills. Just an idea but if you can get all the Kingston and Brockville divers paying a fee based on the number of dives then I think your funding problems would disappear. Think big man.

[Tom R]

Money is not a problem with POW, it's a membership doing the work problem.

Tom

[wetbehindtheear]

i believe that some of the moorings on brockville wrecks were placed there by the charter boat association for their use only. they can be pretty defensive about their moorings (for good reason - it appears that a number of people bring out their own boats to dive - unsafe, and not contributing to the local economy). from what i saw, there was always a public mooring in addition to the charter association's mooring. unfortunately, the charter assn's mooring isn't marked private or anything like that - perhaps more polite communication would be better than a simple order to get off the mooring. in this specific case, you'd think that since the boat in question took so long to get there that another minute to be polite/friendly wouldn't be too much to ask. :out:

i'd also like to encourage divers to contribute to the associations placing the buoys in their dive area of choice. i'm sure time and money are both welcome.

[divedude]

pufferfish once bubbled...



Divedude, just curious are the Brockville wrecks under the umbrella of POW? I don't know how many dives are completed in Kingston each year but in Brockville we recently calculated on the back of an envelope somewhere about 30,000 dives (boat and shore) per annum. If Kingston was in the same ballpark and you can find a mechanism to collect a buck a dive that is a lot of $$ for POW.

Maybe set up a daily and weekly dive rate, and a season's pass like they have at ski hills. Just an idea but if you can get all the Kingston and Brockville divers paying a fee based on the number of dives then I think your funding problems would disappear. Think big man.

No POW has nothing to do with Brockville's moorings. I think they are under SOS

As Tom said we need live body's to help not money........Well money helps too!!
We need members that get out and do things. I have heard many times in the past "Why doesn't POW fix that" or " Why doesn't POW have that mooring up" The main reason is, we only have so many guys to do the job's and we all have full time jobs and run dive business on the side and help POW....So what we need is people to take charge and do things. Its not that hard, in one morning Tom R, Dan McKay and myself fixed 2 moorings, put up 3 buoys and installed a new mooring line on a new wreck. Well Dan and I did, Tom R just swam around and took pictures :)

I had a boat pull up to me two weeks ago and tell me the mooring on the Comet was down and when would we (POW) be able to put it up.

There was 6 divers on this boat, they all had doubles and hang tanks and reels, lift bags, all the toys for the "in fashion" diver.
They started to tell me they wanted to do some technical dives and ask me "where are the deep wrecks."

My somewhat sarcastic answer was "If your so good go put up the mooring on the Comet "THAT's a technical dive"........... The mooring on the Comet is still down..... They went and dove the Wolfe Islander......

I still haven't had time to go put it up and will likelly leave it down now for the winter.
If you guys and gals on the board are interested I'll put a post in for POW's year end meeting date and you can attend and become members. :)

[Groundhog246]

wetbehindtheear once bubbled...
i believe that some of the moorings on brockville wrecks were placed there by the charter boat association for their use only. they can be pretty defensive about their moorings (for good reason - it appears that a number of people bring out their own boats to dive - unsafe, and not contributing to the local economy). .....unfortunately, the charter assn's mooring isn't marked private

If they don't mark it as private (something like "Property of Brockville Charter Boat assoc, member use only") then they're definitely going to get other boats tying off on it. We tied off on a couple of jugs on the Marquette and later the Lottie Wolf. Probably placed there by a local charter and if someone had shown up and said it was his, we'd have moved. We also had another boat show up and we tied him off our stern.

What exactly is "unsafe" about people diving off their own boats, instead of a charter boat?

[wetman]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...

What exactly is "unsafe" about people diving off their own boats, instead of a charter boat?

I was curious about this one too? And as far as the local economy, where do you suppose we eat out, buy gas, air, quite often stay at hotels etc... The only local economy we avoid is the charter boats.

steve

[Col.Cluster]

divedude once bubbled...


If you guys and gals on the board are interested I'll put a post in for POW's year end meeting date and you can attend and become members. :)

Jim

I think this a great idea. It will be interesting to see what kind of turn out you get. Please keep this in mind and post the meeting date.

All the best

CC

[pufferfish]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...

What exactly is "unsafe" about people diving off their own boats, instead of a charter boat?

Well to name a few in Toby I have seen:

Insufficient lifejackets on board
Too many divers on board for boat's capacity
No oxygen on board
Tied to mooring with no one left on boat during dive
Broken non-functioning VHF radio
Gas inboard cruisers with rear/side exhaust idling near dive sites while diver's are on surface preparing to decend (huge CO poisoning risk)

More likely to see this stuff on private boats than the charters. Not saying all private boats are bad but just more likely to find 'unsafe' behaviours by the owners of private boats. A charter captain/owner has much more to lose if he/she does not abide by the proper regulations and keep TC off their back.

[Tom R]

Groundhog246 once bubbled...


What exactly is "unsafe" about people diving off their own boats, instead of a charter boat?

I think most of you are taking this out of context, maybe not. Maybe concerns is a better though

Wreck markers are not the only things out there, fishnets of all types are out there also. Marked with a jug

Some boats are not equipted properly to be out in the lake but they do anyway. I have found unattended zodiacs on the Frontanec thats about 24 hour swim to shore.

Also if a diver finds a jug with no bottom sounder you can be in 200 ft of water before you know it.

If you come to the store before leaving in your boat I would tell what is a good choice for the day.

Tom

[pufferfish]

Tom R once bubbled...

If you come to the store before leaving in your boat I would tell what is a good choice for the day.


And this would be a good opportunity to strongly suggest a donation to POW would it not? :)

Just curious what percentage of dives done on Ktown wrecks are likely from private boats vs charters?

[Tom R]

Most of them are given a POW pamphlet, they like as it has a map on it and descriptions of the wrecks, I would say that only 30 percent of the diving is done off private boats with the exception of the Wolfe which could be 50/50

TOm

[pufferfish]

Tom R once bubbled...
Most of them are given a POW pamphlet, they like as it has a map on it and descriptions of the wrecks, I would say that only 30 percent of the diving is done off private boats with the exception of the Wolfe which could be 50/50
TOm

That is quite a bit higher than I thought. If all the charter divers are making a donation to POW through their charter fee to maintain buoys that is a heck of a lot of private divers who are likely contributing nada. What percentage of the people whom you give that nice map to actually make a donation to POW?

I like the idea like I have seen in many provincial/national parks where there is a box with a 'suggested' donation amount and one just tosses the coins into the box at the start of the trail. How about some sort of 'parking meter' on the Wolf and other popular wrecks where people can toss a toonie into a locked box.

It would probably be too much to hope for, but a simple mechanism to collect a fee from everbody would be when divers come for their fills. One could purchase a POW membership for the season offering unlimited diving or the diver would be charged say an extra two dollars a day with no membership. Of course this would require the cooperation of the ?three shops in town to institute and collecting the fee might be a problem. Thirty percent of the divers not contributing to the buoys upkeep just doesn't seem fair though. With a more aggresive fee system comes publicity for POW which would likely bring in more bodies to help with the cause. Just some food for thought.

[wetman]

Does anyone know exactly what the costs are for all of this stuff? If there was something that someone got in return (like those tags in tobermorry) then it might get more recognition and more people would be conscious of it. Like an "I donated to POW - 2003" type thing. Not that i'd ever where one, but seem like a lot of people keep their toby tags on for a long time. I would think for donations to make much sense people need to see the costs involved right up front and see that their donations are making a real difference. Its clear that POW and other groups are doing great work up there, but if no one knows about them or there isnt much info thats publicly available, maybe people have a harder time seeing why they should donate.

steve

[pufferfish]

I'm sure if you ran for the executive they would tell you the costs ;)

That is a great idea with a tag system like Toby has. Have a day tag and a season tag and the shops ask to see them and sell them when the divers are getting their fills. Most divers once they realize all those buoys are purchased and maintained by POW would gladly purchase a tag. Make it a nice tag with the diver wearing pink split fins and a can of spare air on his belt :D

What would be a fair fee structure? I'd say $20 for a season pass which includes POW membership otherwise $5 for a weekend or $3 a day sounds reasonable. POW then gets lots of addresses to send their newsletter to and expand their volunteer base.

[Tom R]

I put it out in to this forum,

What would like to get in return for your donation.

A Sticker already done.

A Tag

Something else.

Remember membership is only 20.00 and 100.00 for commercial endorsement.

Tom

[wetman]

I'd think some small visible token not necessarily a tag would be good (and it clearly must be DIR ;) ) . I didn't know they even have stickers currently. Maybe a waterproof sticker that could wrap around a hose so that its completely out of the way and totally forgotten. Or a smallish tag you could hange off your first stage or something like that Or something that could comfortably fit around (slip over) the tank straps of most BCs so it could be visible. Big shiny letters - POW 2003 or something like that.

Another thing you might want to consider is get some of the local businesses involved that get some advantage for having divers be there - like restaurants and hotels/motels etc. If they're associated with POW, get them to donate a couple bucks with each room rental and point out to divers in the area that these particular hotels do that and provide flyers at dive shops that list these businesses and make people aware of it that way. Give out a book mark with POW info and the name of these sponsoring businesses on it with each air fill.

I have to admit, i've been diving up there for 3 summers now and if it wasnt for this board i doubt i'd be aware of POW at all. Off hand, i cant even tell you if the wreck markers have their name on it - thats how much I pay attention to such things.

Another though is, let people "sponsor" their favorite wrecks and put that up on a website listing. Gives them a "target" for their money. If i could say hey, ya i sponsored the Davie mooring or something like that, check out pow.com/sponsors and show people they might think hey thats cool. Just an idea.

steve

[simcoediver]

I think some kind of large sticker should be on the boat that is tied up to a mooring so that it is visible from a distance.The recent discussion on boat safety is not at issue here.That is completlely irrelevent to this thread

[pufferfish]

Tom R once bubbled...
I put it out in to this forum,

What would like to get in return for your donation.

A Sticker already done.

A Tag

Something else.

Remember membership is only 20.00 and 100.00 for commercial endorsement.

Tom

What percentage of divers who dive regularly in Kingston are POW members? I imagine it is no where near 100%. For twenty bucks I think a membership, tag or sticker, and seasonal access to all POW buoys is a very fair deal. It is all the divers though who use the buoys and wrecks for their enjoyment but do not contribute that you need to go after. And yes I had never heard of POW until it was mentioned on this board. Put POW on the mooring buoys so people know who is doing the leg work out there. I know people don't like to be strong armed into a pass but really $20 for a season is nothing and if they were properly educated about POW and its role in their dive enjoyment (ie. no POW, no buoys) then I think they would gladly pay a daily fee or buy a season's pass when getting their fill.

Hey Simcoe you were asking about mooring protocol which does tie into boat safety IMHO. Leaving a boat with no one on it while diving is a safety issue and a no, no. Having a dive boat tied up without O2 on board is not great either. A non-functioning radio at a mooring site is a huge safety issue as the other dive boats cannot communicate with you. Coming up alongside a mooring and leaving your inboard engines idling and spewing exhaust while other divers are on the surface waiting to descend is just plain stupidity. These are all mooring protocol issues and not irrelevant to this thread.

Now if you want to complain about the POW discussion hijack you might convince me there :)

[Tom R]

Members of POW are available to speak to dive clubs, the only problem is that only Ottawa and Toronto is reachable during the week, and that is barely. But during the Winter months Members can travel a little further to educate clubs within reach.

Tom

[wetman]

Whats the relation between POW and SOS? why are there two different organizations like that? We had SOS at our local club last year i think but it might be hard to convince people that we needed a kingston specific agency down our way as people here dive everywhere from toby to way up north (and i thought i was north enough, the nutbars :) )

steve

[dvbtkptn]

I have been sitting at the side of this message board for the past three years and have been interested in many of the topics of conversations that have taken place, You are now talking about one of the topics that is near and dear to my heart. POW,

INFORMATION OF ALL

POW( Preserve Our Wrecks Kingston Inc ) and SOS (Save Ontario Shipwrecks) were started in and around the same time 1981, as a result of unauthorized salvage and or damage to artifacts/wrecks. POW/SOS are a group of individuals who volunteer their time towards a common goal of Shipwreck preservation.

While SOS receives some of it's funding Provincially, POW on the other hand is funded only by donations from the diving public/clubs and comercial members( ie. dive shop's, charter operators & members), and it's main consern is the shipwrecks in the Kingston, Picton & Pt Traverse area. POW is also an affilate member of SOS

POW has twenty world class moorings that are monitored by charter operators, POW Executive & regular members on a regular basis in an attempt to prevent thefts and damage to the wrecks and moorings. POW will attend club meetings if asked, we attend shows/symposiums to raise awareness of our historic ship wrecks a non-renewable resorce.

Mooring lines and blocks are maintained by people like Big Jim (mooring project co-ordinator), Dan, Tom (NTD shop owners), Spencer, Harold, (Charter operators) Rick & Barb (members) and others, who do this on their own time and expense along with paying dues and mooring fees. Each line depending on it's length costs approximately $150.00 not to mention the locating lifting and towing of the mooring blocks (average weight 2500lbs) to the different wreck sites.

This year POW received from SOS a generious gift of 10 buoys and have placed them on 8 wrecks sites in the Kingston area and 2 in the Point Traverse area. POW will in the future be attempting to purchase similar buoys to complete the instilation of perminent mooring buoys on all wrecks currently moored by POW.


Preserve Our Wreck IS ALWAYS LOOKING FOR NEW MEMBERS

Single membership is $20.00, Family membership is $30.00, Club Membership $50.00, Corporate Membership $100.00 and Project Membership $100.00. but most of all we need YOU not just as a paying member but someone that will get involved in the organization. Should you want more information on POW go to
WWW.gts.org/pow.html or PM me leaving me your address and I will forward you information on POW.

POW Annual General Meeting is to be held November 16th at 1:00 PM we are just trying to confirm the location now.

[Groundhog246]

Tom R once bubbled...

I think most of you are taking this out of context, maybe not. Maybe concerns is a better though

Wreck markers are not the only things out there, fishnets of all types are out there also. Marked with a jug
I don't think I took it out of context. Certainly not having sufficient PFD's on board is unsafe (and illegal) as is too many divers (or non divers).
No oxygen, how many doing shore dives have oxygen? While I think having it aboard is a great idea, I'm not sure that not having it is unsafe. Just having it isn't enough anyway, you're supposed to have someone trained to administer it.


] Pufferfish saidTied to mooring with no one left on boat during dive
Broken non-functioning VHF radio
Will agree on these. I carry both fixed and handheld VHF's on board. I'm considering a backup GPS (actually a new primary and keep the current one as backup)


Pufferfish saidGas inboard cruisers with rear/side exhaust idling near dive sites while diver's are on surface preparing to decend (huge CO poisoning risk)
I won't disagree, but again more of a boating than a diving issue. Would also apply to PWC's and outboards. In fact 2 strokes will kick out a lot more CO than a 4 stroke due to less efficient combustion. Mine's a diesel. Also the rish from those spinning props if someone bumps it into gear. A real law on dive flags (minimum distance to be maintained) might help. But then again, I've seen dive boats, private and charter, steaming along with the flag up (maybe they've got some really fast swimmers or DPV's).


Tom R saidWreck markers are not the only things out there, fishnets of all types are out there also. Marked with a jug
Also if a diver finds a jug with no bottom sounder you can be in 200 ft of water before you know it.
I'll agree with these issues. There was a post here a while back from someone who spotted what sounds to me like a Lake Huron net buoy (black spar) and dove on it SOLO to see what was there. Fortunately he didn't find anything.
I don't see that type of behaviour as strcitly a diving issue as stupidity is everywhere. Every winter snowmobilers go off the marked trails and injure or kill themselves. The drive acroos almost frozen lakes. Downhill skiers go off the trails and get hurt.

In summary, I don't think we've got a big risk problem with people diving off their own boat (I for one will continue to do so). But they should (and if I was in the area I would) pay to use POW (or SOS, etc) moorings.

I did see the article on bringing them up in the spring and it looked like the type activity I'd get into (a dive with a mission).

[Tom R]

A Groundhog looked around and stated .... I don't think I took it out of context. Certainly not having sufficient PFD's on board is unsafe (and illegal) as is too many divers (or non divers).

Yet many of you still book charters on boats like that.

Diving SOLO, see ya wouldn't want to be ya.




In summary, I don't think we've got a big risk problem with people diving off their own boat (I for one will continue to do so). But they should (and if I was in the area I would) pay to use POW (or SOS, etc) moorings

Not a problem send your donation off to

Preserve Our Wrecks
55 Ontario Street
Kingston, Ontario K7L 2Y2

or

Save Ontario Shipwrecks
R. R. #1, Box 19
Athens, Ontario
Canada K0E 1B0


Tom R

[Groundhog246]

You'll never find me, knowingly, on a vessel without the proper safety equipment. On my own boat, my wife and I have (and wear) inflateable PFD's with an integral harness (in rough weather, it's better to tie in and stay on or at least attached to the boat, than count on floating till whoever's left aboard can trun round, find you and pick you up again. And yes we do practise MOB procedures. At over $200 each, not cheap, but you only get one chance to get it right and what's your life worth. Our kids aren't old enough (16) to legally wear inflateable pfd's, but they do have good quality, bright coloured "standard" ones. An aquaintance once said, you're biggest regret in safety equipment wil be the piece you need and wish you had bought (she once spent 4 days shipwrecked on a reef with 3 others, so she may be a bit biased).
It's really amazing how many people buy the absolute CHEAPEST lifejacket they can to meet the regulations. Kinda like buying the absolute cheapest reg & bcd.

[Tom R]

The Groundhog made the following comment

It's really amazing how many people buy the absolute CHEAPEST lifejacket they can to meet the regulations. Kinda like buying the absolute cheapest reg & bcd.

Well said

Tom

[pufferfish]

Above link not working, try this
POW (http://www.gtcs.org/pow.html)

[Warren_L]

Tom R once bubbled...


Yet many of you still book charters on boats like that.

Diving SOLO, see ya wouldn't want to be ya.


As somebody who knows little to nothing about the charter operations out there, how would you know who to book with and who not to? Do we ask over the phone?

[Tom R]

Good question,

The operators that I routinely use for NTD have been nothing but highly professional, to the point where they are asked for by name when you call, email or even walkin for a charter. I do try to match you up with divers of the same skill set and the Capt of your choise. I have let Instructors and Capt's go there own way for not self policing and providing great service.

I know what boats are compling and if they don't they don't get booked. Bottom line.

Next year we are hoping expending our service to Brockville with one of the Spike's doing just what we do for you in Kingston.

In order for a operator to be used on a regular basis the following criteria has to be met.

Insurance
Proper Safety Equipment
Professionalism
Well maintain boat
Working Radios and GPS

All the Captains are current in First Aid and CPR and we will be running a couple of more courses this winter, space is limited but if you wish to join us, just ask.

Tom R

[divedude]

wlo93 once bubbled...


As somebody who knows little to nothing about the charter operations out there, how would you know who to book with and who not to? Do we ask over the phone?

You should ask, it's your life.....

Mother Nature is a unforgiving mother
Many of us go out to dive on huge shipwrecks.
Stop and think. How did they get there????

If a huge ship like the ones we dive on sunk and people died !!!

What chance do you have if the vessel you dive on, does not have all the safety equipment needed to insure your chances of survival????

Ask any competent Captain when you get on his vessel what the weather is predicted to do and he can tell you, because we always check weather first and for-most before we head out.

I've had people call and ask me price to go diving....Then tell me another charter will do it for less......

BUT...... only 2 or 3 times in over 10 years have I had people call and ask what MY qualifications are or what safety equipment I had on board.

Sure you can get "cheaper" charters.............It's your life!

With that said, there are no guarantee's. But in a worse case scenario, a prepared vessel and Captain is your best choice.
ASK THE QUESTIONS and have them prove it with paper work.

[Doppler]

Excellent points. And about time someone said it.



divedude once bubbled...


You should ask, it's your life.....

Mother Nature is a unforgiving mother
Many of us go out to dive on huge shipwrecks.
Stop and think. How did they get there????

If a huge ship like the ones we dive on sunk and people died !!!

What chance do you have if the vessel you dive on, does not have all the safety equipment needed to insure your chances of survival????

Ask any competent Captain when you get on his vessel what the weather is predicted to do and he can tell you, because we always check weather first and for-most before we head out.

I've had people call and ask me price to go diving....Then tell me another charter will do it for less......

BUT...... only 2 or 3 times in over 10 years have I had people call and ask what MY qualifications are or what safety equipment I had on board.

Sure you can get "cheaper" charters.............It's your life!

With that said, there are no guarantee's. But in a worse case scenario, a prepared vessel and Captain is your best choice.
ASK THE QUESTIONS and have them prove it with paper work.

[Warren_L]

I've only been out to Kingston a few times, all with NTD. Twice with Harold and once with Big Jim. I've always figured that any reputable charter operation would have to conform to TC standards that they set.

[divedude]

wlo93 once bubbled...
I've always figured that any reputable charter operation would have to conform to TC standards that they set.

You would think so, wouldn't you.
WRONG

Transport Canada is a joke!!! Participation in regulations is voluntary and you can get away with not complying for years. I'll admit I did, only in the last 4 years have I complied, I got my Masters certificate and had Transport Canada inspect my vessel. Even this year the inspector told me that they can only shut down a vessel with a court order and that most of them won't go to court, so no one gets shut down.

Proof......Transport Canada regulations state that if you take even one paying passenger on board you must have a licensed master on board and in charge of the vessel..........

How many do you think have a masters certificate in Kingston??

OK OK I know, now I'm blowing my own horn, why not I worked hard for it.

[Warren_L]

For most schmoes like myself who are not in the dive charter business, I would have thought that adhering to these standards would be something that would be taken relatively seriously, but apparently not.

Anyhow, it's good to know there are those that take safety seriously. I will be out to see you again Big Jim, when you have the boat back in the water for the new season.

[Tom R]

Warren,

One would think that they would also attempt to do this, but everyone has there own idea of what standards. I actually have had conversations with people that spend more time looking for a work around the standards then they would compling with them.

On a happier note we'll be working with all the same guys next year and are adding one more to work with us, including a boat in Brockville

I will let the Captains announce that to you all at an appropriate time.

Tom

[Warren_L]

I'm thinking about coming next weekend, actually. Was hoping Harold would be available to take us out.