Are you a DIR-like Diver?

[Saturation]

This was a running thread on TDS but their editors do not allow polls.

The questions should hopefully be self explanatory.

DIR is defined by J. Jablonski in his book "Doing It Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving." If your gear configuration and dive skills are as JJ or George Irvine mandate, you are 100% DIR.

Any variant of it is not 100% DIR, including 99% of its preachings.

Please select what you think is your diving style.

[CincyBengalsFan]

I am not DIR and have no desire to take one of their seminars/classes/coures or whatever they are tomorrow.

I have excellent bouyancy control.

I have excellent swimming abilities

I have excellent emergency handling capabilities

I don't dive with the long hose.

I practice all of the above often.

I dive with a jacket style BC 80% of the time

So I guess I have some DIR likenesses But when it comes to bouyancy, emergency drills, practicing. Then I'm like PADI, NAUI, SSI, YMCA, CMAS, MDEA, and a few others also.

[diverrick]

I'm with Cincy on this one.
If I think it's needed then I do it, or buy it. I do consider myself a conservetive/organised diver BTW.
Some folks seem to get all caught up in the mental "how to do it right" kinda mentality.
That's fine for them, but not for me. to each thier own. If I am so worried that I loook right, or if I am doing it Right, then it takes away from the prime directive.... enjoy thyself. (without harming the enviromment that is)

[roturner]

Saturation once bubbled...
This was a running thread on TDS but their editors do not allow polls.

The questions should hopefully be self explanatory.

DIR is defined by J. Jablonski in his book "Doing It Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving." If your gear configuration and dive skills are as JJ or George Irvine mandate, you are 100% DIR.

Any variant of it is not 100% DIR, including 99% of its preachings.

Please select what you think is your diving style.
I adopted some things from cave and wreck divers but I would be insulted and embarassed if someone thought I was DIR. I'm a nice guy, and therefore I can never be DIR.

I have really mixed feelings about DIR. On the one hand, the best practices appeal to me but on the other hand I have the following prevailing feeling about DIR (cynic mode = on):

You can't become DIR by buying equipment (what you suggest) and you can't become DIR by any other means either as long as you're still human.

And I will add this to what Phillip said:

Nothing DIR is original.

Buoyancy skills are not DIR.

Long hoses and bungied octos are not DIR. That was already a best practice when JJ's mother was still telling him when to come home after school.

Diving in Buddy teams is not DIR.

The magic DIR/GUE on-the-fly deco calculations are not DIR. The US navy was alreay doing this in the 1950's.

And further

Black is not DIR.

Cool is not DIR.

Fun is most definitely not DIR.

Even JJ isn't DIR. He was PADI before he got sucked into the dark side.

And social skills are obviously not DIR.

so what *IS* DIR then.... :
- arrogance is DIR
- re-writing history is DIR
- conflicts of (business) interests is DIR
- cover ups and misinformation regarding accidents is DIR
- burning bridges with the founders and genuinely creative and innovative souls behind the system is DIR
- Bickering is DIR
- Cynicism is DIR (but clearly not *only* DIR :))
- George Irvine's hate mail is DIR
- Keeping the faith even it means calling past friends "stroke" is DIR
- Lack of respect is DIR
- Losing respect is DIR

and finally

- Alienation from the rest of the diving world is DIR.

Bring it on.

R..

[CincyBengalsFan]

roturner once bubbled...

I adopted some things from cave and wreck divers but I would be insulted and embarassed if someone thought I was DIR. I'm a nice guy, and therefore I can never be DIR.

I have really mixed feelings about DIR. On the one hand, the best practices appeal to me but on the other hand I have the following prevailing feeling about DIR (cynic mode = on):

You can't become DIR by buying equipment (what you suggest) and you can't become DIR by any other means either as long as you're still human.

And I will add this to what Phillip said:

Nothing DIR is original.

Buoyancy skills are not DIR.

Long hoses and bungied octos are not DIR. That was already a best practice when JJ's mother was still telling him when to come home after school.

Diving in Buddy teams is not DIR.

The magic DIR/GUE on-the-fly deco calculations are not DIR. The US navy was alreay doing this in the 1950's.

And further

Black is not DIR.

Cool is not DIR.

Fun is most definitely not DIR.

Even JJ isn't DIR. He was PADI before he got sucked into the dark side.

And social skills are obviously not DIR.

so what *IS* DIR then.... :
- arrogance is DIR
- re-writing history is DIR
- conflicts of (business) interests is DIR
- cover ups and misinformation regarding accidents is DIR
- burning bridges with the founders and genuinely creative and innovative souls behind the system is DIR
- Bickering is DIR
- Cynicism is DIR (but clearly not *only* DIR :))
- George Irvine's hate mail is DIR
- Keeping the faith even it means calling past friends "stroke" is DIR
- Lack of respect is DIR
- Losing respect is DIR

and finally

- Alienation from the rest of the diving world is DIR.

Bring it on.

R..

DAMN...I didn't want to say it but......................:D

[Saturation]

I'm Not DIR and happy about it ...

No problem folks. I'm just polling how many true DIR divers there are, at least within SB.

The same question was asked at the DIR Forum of TDS but in individual posts, which is a pain to collate.

However, DIR also includes non-technical issues, and the 17,000 SB members offers a potential base for an interesting reply, as you all have done.

[Big-t-2538]

Hold on....I see no mention of a tall frosty glass of freshly brewed kool-aid anywhere.....haven't we beaten this issue dead many times over anyway?

Not so much the "am I or not"...but the "what is/isn't"....just one time I'd like to see it (the topic of discussion) stay remotely on course....

[CincyBengalsFan]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...
Hold on....I see no mention of a tall frosty glass of freshly brewed kool-aid anywhere.....haven't we beaten this issue dead many times over anyway?

Not so much the "am I or not"...but the "what is/isn't"....just one time I'd like to see it (the topic of discussion) stay remotely on course....


This is remotely on course compared to the other threads we've been a part of lately.:) :D

[SeaJay]

roturner once bubbled...

I adopted some things from cave and wreck divers but I would be insulted and embarassed if someone thought I was DIR.


I thought you were DIR. I'm sorry if that offends you. Please understand that from this perspective, it's quite a compliment.



I'm a nice guy, and therefore I can never be DIR.


Now, I find that insulting.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't agree with the notion that DIR = "not a nice guy." Apparently, your experiences with DIR guys and my experiences with DIR guys has been quite different.



Even JJ isn't DIR. He was PADI before he got sucked into the dark side.


GUE is not a certifying agency. Of course, you know this... But my point is that every diver who is DIR (or is headed towards DIR) was first PADI, NAUI, YMCA, SSI, etc. Having been trained by these agencies does not somehow make you "un" DIR. They compliment GUE training nicely, in fact.



And social skills are obviously not DIR.


I beg your pardon. :eek:

I fear that the people who you have talked to who CLAIM to be DIR might not have been the best example of DIR. :D



so what *IS* DIR then.... :
- arrogance is DIR
- re-writing history is DIR
- conflicts of (business) interests is DIR
- cover ups and misinformation regarding accidents is DIR
- burning bridges with the founders and genuinely creative and innovative souls behind the system is DIR
- Bickering is DIR
- Cynicism is DIR (but clearly not *only* DIR :))
- George Irvine's hate mail is DIR
- Keeping the faith even it means calling past friends "stroke" is DIR
- Lack of respect is DIR
- Losing respect is DIR

and finally

- Alienation from the rest of the diving world is DIR.

Bring it on.

R..

*Ahem*

I will point out, R, that you seem to have taken on a rather aggressive side against DIR, and without provocation. I suggest that you reassess that list above and consider who, exactly, it is that demonstrates those traits most clearly.

...I'd also like to point out that George Irvine is not affiliated with GUE and is not a DIR instructor. His attitude is not typical of other DIR divers. In fact, many "higher ups" in GUE and George don't get along well.

FWIW, I voted "working towards 100% DIR." While I don't dive any way or any thing that's NOT DIR, I feel that my fitness program could use some work and would prefer to consider my "DIR-ness" a work in progress. To me, the success in anything I do is more of a journey than a destination. So... It simply felt right to not vote as "100% DIR." It's my bet that the best in the dive industry would say the same.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go pull together the next few dives for our dive club... You know, so that we can all dive alienated together. :)

FWIW, at this point I, too, would be insulted and embarrassed if someone thought you were DIR. :D

[BigJetDriver]

Saturation once bubbled...
.....DIR is defined by J. Jablonski in his book "Doing It Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving." If your gear configuration and dive skills are as JJ or George Irvine mandate, you are 100% DIR.

Any variant of it is not 100% DIR, including 99% of its preachings.



For those who missed it, I will re-post the comments from "The Man Himself" in response to JJ as follows:

For many years, I have watched--without responding--as some people have rewritten cave diving history to support their personal agendas. And for those many years, I have generally been amused by "facts" that are inaccurate and by events that never actually occurred. However, Jarrod's article demands a response from me, so I am making my first ever Internet posting. I feel compelled to make this response for two primary reasons.

First, Jarrod uses the words "twisted facts" in his post, when, in fact, several of his own "facts" are inaccurate. Second, I spoke to Jarrod recently and told him I was going to write an article regarding the differences between the Hogarthian configuration and DIR. When Jarrod heard this news, he became defensive and asked me not to write the article because it "would stir things up." So I complied with his request and did not write the article. If, however, I wrote the article now, there are several things I might say.

For example, I might mention that Lloyd Bailey, my long time friend, certified Jarrod in full cave on October 23, 1989, a date that's after some of the events about which Jarrod writes with seeming authority. In actuality, Jarrod was not there in the early days of the WKPP, nor was anyone else currently in that organization around in those days. In my non-article, I also might write an interesting tidbit to put some perspective on Jarrod's position in the equation. Specifically, when Jarrod was working at Ginnie Springs, we used to dive a lot together. One night, while we were decompressing on the log in Devil's Ear, I used my slate to ask Jarrod in what year he was born. When he wrote his response, I realized that I had been decompressing on what seemed to be the same log when he was only three years old. As a result, the cave diving history on which Jarrod reports is frequently nothing more than hearsay. Inasmuch as this is the case, I'd like to correct the most glaring errors Jarrod makes in his posting.

Specifically, Sheck Exley died before the term "DIR" was used. Furthermore, in the beginning of DIR, the basic configuration was the same as Hogarthian, although differences did come into play later. As far as the coining of the term "Hogarthian configuration" is concerned, the mastermind of those words was John Zumrick and not Bill Gavin. And, finally, the main theme of the original WKPP members was of minimalism and the complete elimination of danglies. The poor gear configuration of which Jarrod writes in his post was definitely not characteristic of the initial WKPP group, and again, Jarrod wasn't around to even witness what our gear configuration was.

In closing, Jarrod has been a part of some big events in cave diving and has made some incredible dives. However, I have always believed that if you must report on or write about parts of cave diving history, you will make fewer mistakes if you were there. William Hogarth Main

[Aeolus]

I do not like the idea of some person or group declaring what is "Doing It Right". That just seems a little "holier than thou" to me. Especially if there is the issue of only certain brands being acceptable. It would seem much more prudient to have people improve their skills, rather than purchase the "right" eqipment.

-Rant off :boxing:

[CincyBengalsFan]

Yeah, I hear ya..Aeolus,

I guess my big problem is that the 7' hose in not even remotely neccessary for the average joe schmoe diver. Further more I have a problem with them not saying or printing the problems with the 7' hose. I'm not saying the short hose is perfect by any means at all. It has flaws like we all do. But the 7' hose has flaws too and nobody will confess up to it. Point is..Nothing is perfect but they think they have a perfect system.

SeaJay..Keep burning up those megabytes for the ScubaBoard....:D Just kidding..I know you love to write.

[roturner]

SeaJay once bubbled...


...I'd also like to point out that George Irvine is not affiliated with GUE and is not a DIR instructor. His attitude is not typical of other DIR divers. In fact, many "higher ups" in GUE and George don't get along well.



Oh yeah. I forgot. Spin-doctoring is DIR. ;)

Don't feel insulted Seajay. You're OK but then again you said it yourself. You're not DIR. When you are I'm sure you'll tranform into a troll too. As long as you don't learn to hate people like me you're not DIR. You obviously need practice man :).

But really..... I really didn't say this to insult any particular person. It's just that years of trying to be my usual cool reasoned self in the face of some pretty belligerent B.S. has completely worn my patience and i don't give a rat's a$$ anymore what the DIR hardcore think of me or my opinions. They're delusional anyway and the whole movement is in a self-destructive spiral that I want no part of.



FWIW, I, too, would be insulted and embarrassed if someone thought you were DIR. :D

Good. We understand each other. ;)

R..

[SeaJay]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...

SeaJay..Keep burning up those megabytes for the ScubaBoard....:D Just kidding..I know you love to write.

You bet I do, bubba. :D



Further more I have a problem with them not saying or printing the problems with the 7' hose. I'm not saying the short hose is perfect by any means at all. It has flaws like we all do. But the 7' hose has flaws too and nobody will confess up to it.


Cincy, I think by the time that thread got pulled, we were at nearly 50 pages, at 20 posts per page. Not one example of a fault with the 7 foot hose was ever pointed out.

Nix that... There were two. One was the one that I pointed out... That people like you give me hell about it. I still can't figure out why you'd care what sort of rig I dive, especially since you and I don't dive together. The other reason - the "it's going to choke you" reason - was silly and rediculous, and it was pointed out by several people that it was not a rational fear.

The bottom line is that for nearly 50 pages I heard you rant about how 7-footers had disadvantages, yet I never saw one viable, rational example.

...And whether it's perfect or not, weighing the advantages and disadvantages offers proof that it's at least better than using the short primary/octo configuration. If you have a better idea, then we're all ears.

[CD_in_Chitown]

as a "Like DIR" choice? DIR is like Hogarthian not vice versa.

SeaJay, your an ambassador man. You've got much work ahead of you to erase the social misstatements of the hardcore and the wannabes.

Cincy- I too look forward to hearing the drawbacks of the 7' hose. You should feel free to discuss them here, or start a new thread. Impart your "wisdom" on us, please.

Chris

[CincyBengalsFan]

OK, first of all it needs to be made aware that I NEVER SAID or made a valid point about strangulation with that 7 footer. It might have been Karl or some Karl-Like figure.

The other thing is...We may hit 50 pages again...:D

OK...One valid point that I did make that some people just can't swallow is.........The fact that you have two divers without air or a reg in their mouth for a brief moment hopefully...HOPEFULLY just a brief moment when you donate the primary (FACT!!!!). To me this opens up the door to have two paniced divers instead of one. When you donate your octo...The chance of two paniced divers is significantly less than donated your primary.

This is enough to turn me away from donating the primary.

I'm sure you can understand my point. I'm not asking you have to swallow it...But just say you understand it.

No name calling or bashing intended if anyone saw it that way!:)

[SeaJay]

roturner once bubbled...

Don't feel insulted Seajay. You're OK but then again you said it yourself. You're not DIR. When you are I'm sure you'll tranform into a troll too. As long as you don't learn to hate people like me you're not DIR. You obviously need practice man :).



Hahahahaaa!!!

I promise to never learn to hate people - like you or anyone else. I also promise to never turn into a troll (although I've already been accused of it before).

I promise to always be the very best example of DIR that I can be. "I may not be the best example," but I can certainly be the very best one that I can be.

The bottom line is that what I've seen in DIR (which includes the class, hanging out with "DIR guys" quite a bit, formal book and course education, lots and lots of practice, and much skill and gear configuration) has the potential to impact the dive industry as a whole in a very positive way. There's much to be learned from the DIR program. I find it inspiring... Like rootin' for the underdog.

...So in an effort to see the underdog succeed, I will offer what I can - I will learn, I will keep an open mind, I will write, and I will use some people skills, which I hear is lacking (although that hasn't been my experience - people like JJ and MHK and AndrewG have phenominal people skills).

...And I will stand as an example - at least the best that I can be - of DIR.

...And if you need a better example, I offer to you the names mentioned above. These are truly great people.

[CD_in_Chitown]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
The fact that you have two divers without air or a reg in their mouth for a brief moment

I thought this was covered in the previous, but ok there's one.


But the 7' hose has flaws too and nobody will confess up to it

You say flaws like there are multiple. Do you have some real flaws you'd like to point out?

[CincyBengalsFan]

cd_in_SeaTac once bubbled...
as a "Like DIR" choice? DIR is like Hogarthian not vice versa.

SeaJay, your an ambassador man. You've got much work ahead of you to erase the social misstatements of the hardcore and the wannabes.

Cincy- I too look forward to hearing the drawbacks of the 7' hose. You should feel free to discuss them here, or start a new thread. Impart your "wisdom" on us, please.

Chris

cd_in_SeaTac

I'm not going to get into the bashing or name calling with you. Stuff like "impart your wisdom" and other sarcastic remarks. Please simply start another thread for that and call me all the names in the world in every language you can think of.

Or you can be a part of this thread with educated posts.

SeaJay, furthermore, I don't care what you dive in or with. I do care about the local folks around me though.

[plsdiver4377]

As far as the gear configuration DIR makes perfect sense expecially in regards to cave, wreck, etc. Much if not all is useful in OW, but not absolutely neccessary.

I personally feel it should be about the skills which DIR does promote quite well. This is the one area where that I believe everybody can agree on or should.

As far as the people I personally have not met a DIR diver in person so I will reserve judgement on that issue.

Just trying to keep an open mind (without leeting anything fall out) as a relatively new diver.;)

[CincyBengalsFan]

cd_in_SeaTac once bubbled...


I thought this was covered in the previous, but ok there's one.



You say flaws like there are multiple. Do you have some real flaws you'd like to point out?

Okay, I'll say flaw for right now. My bad, hope it didn't cause to much confusion. And the fact that you can not consider that a real flaw, that's just scary.

You don't think that two divers without a regulator is a flaw? By that thinking there should not be any flaws with the short hose configuration either or possibly in Scuba period, at least not "real" flaws like you put it....:D

[CD_in_Chitown]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
cd_in_SeaTac

I'm not going to get into the bashing or name calling with you.

Dude you have said repeatedly there are many flaws to diving a long hose, you have been asked repeatedly to elaborate on these flaws. You hold out one argument, that more than one person has conceded might be a concern and might not since you can reach a bungeed octo without using the hands, and offer no more?

I'm not bashing or name calling, I'm asking you to quit posturing and play the Ace. You continue to mis-direct the conversation when someone asks you about the details.

[Big-t-2538]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
OK...One valid point that I did make that some people just can't swallow is.........The fact that you have two divers without air or a reg in their mouth for a brief moment hopefully...HOPEFULLY just a brief moment when you donate the primary (FACT!!!!). To me this opens up the door to have two paniced divers instead of one. When you donate your octo...The chance of two paniced divers is significantly less than donated your primary.

I'm sure you can understand my point. You argue it that way...I see the other side of the issue being that a calm diver is not going to panic without his reg for a few brief moments. I also feel that the idea that I am giving a panicked diver a regulator I know is working right this second is a benefit that outweighs the risk of my octo failing in this situation and me having to share air off of my working primary with a panicked diver.....

[Big-t-2538]

I see someone had his kool-aid this morning

[SeaJay]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
OK, first of all it needs to be made aware that I NEVER SAID or made a valid point about strangulation with that 7 footer. It might have been Karl or some Karl-Like figure.


Hahahahahaaaa!!! Ah, yes... That's right... Forgive me for saying it was you. Now that you remind me, you did NOT say that. I'm sorry.



The other thing is...We may hit 50 pages again...:D


Lol... Something tells me that you're right. :)



OK...One valid point that I did make that some people just can't swallow is.........The fact that you have two divers without air or a reg in their mouth for a brief moment hopefully...HOPEFULLY just a brief moment when you donate the primary (FACT!!!!). To me this opens up the door to have two paniced divers instead of one. When you donate your octo...The chance of two paniced divers is significantly less than donated your primary.

This is enough to turn me away from donating the primary.

I'm sure you can understand my point. I'm not asking you have to swallow it...But just say you understand it.


Ah, yes... I do remember you pointing that out. Perhaps it wasn't addressed.

Let's draw an example... Two divers on a buddy team... One of them has an OOG.

Now, between the two of them, there's four (second stage) regs. The situation above which you use as an example considers three of the four regulators inoperative. Two of them don't work because there's no gas for them to give. One regulator works (the one in the second diver's mouth, whether that's the one donated or not) and his other doesn't (whether that's his "backup" or "octo," and whether it's donated or "switched to.")

Agreed? So we have two divers, and one working second stage.

The bottom line is that you're going to have to buddy breathe. Donating the primary takes some of the time without gas off of your buddy, and allows you to share the burden.

Let's draw the two examples out... In the case where the divers donate their primaries, here's how it goes: The first diver's out of gas, and waits 10 or 20 seconds before he's able to get another breath. That's when the second diver finds out that his backup doesn't work. He must also wait, then, 10 or 20 seconds before he can take a breath, and then the two of them settle into a six second pass until they're able to surface.

In the case where the divers donate their octos, here's how it goes: The first diver's out of gas, and waits 10 or 20 seconds before he gets another reg in his mouth, which does not work. Then he needs to wait another 10 or 20 seconds to recieve your primary, which you don't feel comfortable giving anyway (since you feel that somehow makes you OOA) and is on a very short hose. In all, in this case, your OOG buddy could be OOG for 40 seconds or more... And that's assuming that you found your octo on the first "sweep."

Faced with a choice of those two scenarios, Cincy, I personally would choose the first - no matter which diver I was.

[Saturation]

cd_in_SeaTac once bubbled...
as a "Like DIR" choice? DIR is like Hogarthian not vice versa.



This thread is looking to poll divers as to what they think their diving style is called, and a discussion is really up to you all, its been discussed elsewhere many times. After a search, no one has requested a poll of this sort to date on SB.

[CD_in_Chitown]

Saturation once bubbled...
This thread is looking to poll divers as to what they think their diving style is called,

That's fine and dandy but your responses will be skewed Dr. as you've stated the question to imply "How DIR are you"

[CincyBengalsFan]

cd_in_SeaTac once bubbled...


Dude you have said repeatedly there are many flaws to diving a long hose, you have been asked repeatedly to elaborate on these flaws. You hold out one argument, that more than one person has conceded might be a concern and might not since you can reach a bungeed octo without using the hands, and offer no more?

I'm not bashing or name calling, I'm asking you to quit posturing and play the Ace. You continue to mis-direct the conversation when someone asks you about the details.

Look, I don't know what more I can say to you. I S A I D "M Y B A D" A B O U T S A Y I N G F L A W S! I F U R T H E R M O R E S A I D I S H O U L D H A V E S A I D F L A W !!! what part of this is hard to comprehend?

I had a very valid point that I'm not asking you to swallow. Just to acknowlege it. SeaJay has made other valid points to my point. I simply feel that having just one diver without a reg is better than two divers without a reg. G E T O V E R I T & (AND) M O V E O N P L E A S E!

[CincyBengalsFan]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...


Koolaid has sugar in it, and that is not good for you either. You will wake up one day with adult-onset diabedes.

Ice water, or fruit juice (fructose), or lowfat milk (only on non-diving days).

OFF TOPIC CHIEF!

[Saturation]

cd_in_SeaTac once bubbled...


That's fine and dandy but your responses will be skewed Dr. as you've stated the question to imply "How DIR are you"

Correct me please if I'm wrong, there is no label for the non-DIR diving style is there? Prior to DIR, there were labels for recreational, technical, cave, scientific, ice etc., but no concept for something involving all diving styles as a one way, the DIR-way versus everyone else. So non-DIR is called in the poll "none of the above." Its polite and correct, I think.

Skewing is possible for many reasons one of which is simply posting on SB. An internet poll is full of bias potential so the results are insightful but no means something near stone, or even perhaps mud!

Those simple question can answer many things inferentially and directly, for example:

How popular has DIR has become since the late 1990s?

How many people know the difference between Hogarthian and DIR?

How many people agree with the DIR concept?

I'll post more detailed explanation later for this question when the poll closes, but I'm afraid to skew potential poster's thinking if I answer certain questions now.

[Big-t-2538]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


OFF TOPIC CHIEF! Dude...I think you're have a "Caps Lock" and space bar issue in you last few posts...

[Big-t-2538]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?search=Hogarthian

No results found for "Hogarthian" No kidding....I had no idea...someone should alert Encarta to this stunning result....there has to be something.....

[SeaJay]

A search at MSN shows the following results: http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?srch=105&FORM=AS5&q=hogarthian

Of special note is the definition of "Hogarthian" by none other than JJ himself, president and CEO of GUE, the agency responsible for the DIR program. His explanation of Hogarthian, especially in reference to how it differs from DIR, should be an excellent resource:

http://diver.ocean.washington.edu/hogarthian.html

To put it in what is no doubt oversimplified terms, "Hogarthian" refers to the equipment configuration, which includes a long hose primary for donation, a bungeed backup, and... If I'm not mistaken... A backplate and wings. "DIR" is a program which uses a Hogarthian rig, with some minor modification, but includes the skill set and holistic style of diving which includes, amongst other things, a fitness regimen and other "lifestyle" changes aimed at a net positive effect on your capacity to dive.

I suspect that the way that people who vote in this poll regard the term "DIR" as one who follows the DIR regimen, which includes the Hogarthian rig. Those who claim to dive "Hogarthian" dive the long hose, bp/wing, and equipment configuration, but may not subscribe to all the tenants of DIR.

[CincyBengalsFan]

[quote]
cd_in_SeaTac wrote on 10-22-2003 01:52 PM:
You're a melodramatic one aren't you?

Thanks cd_in_SeaTac weiner dog with cape.

SeaJay, you make excellent points and civil too. Thankyou for not sending me insulting private messages. You could give lessons to several people on this board on how to get your point across.

You can catch more bee's with honey than vinegar.....

Or is that statement false also cd_in_SeaTac weiner dog with a cape?

[CincyBengalsFan]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...


Then complain to BigT. He got off topic.

Hey BigT...Karl wants me to tell you that you're off topic... So..your off topic man.:D

Is that good Karl? Everything better now? Some good ole Ice-water should fix everything right up for ya.

[BigJetDriver]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...
I believe that JJ----(EDITORS NOTE:...ALONG WITH MEMBERS OF MOST TECHNICAL TRAINING AGENCIES)----is completely correct about divers needing to be totally self reliant. Unfortunately many of the major training agencies purposely train students to a level of buddy dependence. So this probably will not change much in the future.

I believe JJ is totally right that a team of divers involved in a high risk operation should all be equally configured.

(EDITORS NOTE: HERE JJ MIRRORS OTHER AUTHORITIES IN THE FIELD WHO BELIEVE THAT WHEN TEAMS ARE CONFIGURED AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO BE ALIKE, IT SMOOTHS THE LOGISTICS OF THE EFFORT.)

I believe that JJ is totally right about physical fitness activities during the week, to stay in prime shape for diving.

I believe JJ is totally right about using nitrox for all dives rather than air.

(EDITORS NOTE:...OR BREATHING GASES OTHER THAN AIR, SUCH AS HELI-OX, AS USED, FOR INSTANCE IN CCR's)

I believe that JJ is totally right that your SPG should be unencumbered by a console of any kind.

I believe that JJ is totally right about smaller fins, such as ScubaPro jetfins or Turtle fins, and low displacement masks.

(EDITORS NOTE: LOW DISPLACEMENT MASKS ARE NOT POSSIBLE WHEN USING COMM GEAR)

Much of these DIR concepts have been around longer than JJ, however he has articulated them well in his book.

(EDITORS NOTE:---AS WE KNOW, HOWEVER, THE BOOK SHOULD BE TITLED: "A COLLECTION OF THE PRACTICES AND PROCEDURES OF THE ELDERS OF WKPP DIVING, AS RE-INTERPRETED BY JARROD JABLONSKI, THE YOUNGER"---PLEASE SEE EARLIER POST BY WILLIAM HOGARTH MAIN)

JJ's concept of full uniformity for non-high risk operations does not make sense to me, however. I agree that there are advantages to being uniformly configured all the time. But there are also advantages to flexibility as well. So this is a pros vs cons issue.

By analogy, since you do not always configure yourself the same way as for ice diving for other diving as well, then the concept of uniform configuration is not universally applicable and hence not ideal. I simply prefer more flexibility and customization than JJ prefers.

And thats why I prefer "partially DIR."

:D Good post, Karl!;)

[SeaJay]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...

SeaJay, you make excellent points and civil too. Thankyou for not sending me insulting private messages. You could give lessons to several people on this board on how to get your point across.


I'm flattered. :)

Why would I send you insulting PM's? You seem like a nice guy to me. Even if you weren't, it wouldn't warrant misbehavior like that.

But heck, the bottom line is that you're a diver, which means that we've got like interests... Which means we've got things in common. I don't see why the specifics have to come between people with things in common.

I'm sorry you're getting flamed. At least it's being done privately. :) It always felt worse to me when it was in public.

But hey, if you're getting flamed, then you're in good company. JJ gets flamed, GI3 gets flamed, UP gets flamed, O-ring gets flamed... Heck, I once heard someone refer to The Deco Stop (sort of a tech child of this board) as "The Weenie Stop." :) The bottom line is, "If you ain't gettin' flamed, then you're probably not doing something right." :) Albert Einstein got flamed... Alexander Graham Bell got flamed... Thomas Edison got flamed... You're in good company, no matter whether you have a micro or a macro view on flaming.

Now, if the person who's doing the flaming is reading this... How 'bout taking a 'chill, hunh? I mean, I'm no moderator, so I don't have a right... But there's nothing wrong with being nice, you know.

...And certainly, if you, the flamer, is representing DIR, remember UP's words: "You may not be the best example of DIR." Please remember the words that you were no doubt told in your DIR-F class about "being an ambassador..." After all, you are the minority...

[JeffG]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...


(EDITORS NOTE:---AS WE KNOW, HOWEVER, THE BOOK SHOULD BE TITLED: "A COLLECTION OF THE PRACTICES AND PROCEDURES OF THE ELDERS OF WKPP DIVING, AS RE-INTERPRETED BY JARROD JABLONSKI, THE YOUNGER"---PLEASE SEE EARLIER POST BY WILLIAM HOGARTH MAIN)



Nope. Not Re-interpreted, expanded.

[paulwlee]

With respect to yet another DIR-bashing at the beginning of this thread, I find it very interesting, because:

Every DIR diver(or diver adhering to 'most' of its tenets) I met in person, or interacted with in a local BB, were very nice people, and had done much experimentation before settling on DIR.
After taking DIR-F a couple weeks ago, I am also convinced that they have a system that really works. (And no, they haven't invented each and every aspect of it. They just put things together to work well. Nothing wrong with that.)

I will probably not be DIR in the near future as I enjoy diving solo and really like my air integrated wrist computer, but as I progress into tek diving, I will probably become a 'mostly' DIR diver myself. (Exceptions being that I will probably still do NDL solo dives.)

Now unlike Seajay :D I don't think it's a one-size fits all, the best for everyone and everything, and there are other safe ways to do things (and many more less safe ways) but it's a system that's well thought out and works well in practice, and I like it, so there you go.
If you don't like what they do, then let them be and do what you want.
If you like what they do, do it with them.

That's my 2 cents worth.

[SeaJay]

paulwlee once bubbled...

Every DIR diver(or diver adhering to 'most' of its tenets) I met in person, or interacted with in a local BB, were very nice people, and had done much experimentation before settling on DIR.


Make that another. :) I, too, have done much experimentation... As did JJ, GI3, AndrewG, and the other "main DIR guys."

In fact, I can assure you that they still experiment and refine, although the changes may seem slight... Seen more as "refinements" than "changes."



After taking DIR-F a couple weeks ago, I am also convinced that they have a system that really works. (And no, they haven't invented each and every aspect of it. They just put things together to work well. Nothing wrong with that.)


Nicely put! :)



Now unlike Seajay :D I don't think it's a one-size fits all, the best for everyone and everything, and there are other safe ways to do things (and many more less safe ways) but it's a system that's well thought out and works well in practice, and I like it, so there you go.


Fair enough. :)

Frankly, I'm not of the "one size fits all" ilk. I may have given that impression, but it's not the case at all. I'm actually of the, "this is what I believe to be the best system" ilk, and the, "if you choose to dive otherwise, then more power to you" ilk.

My father and my grandfather and his father before him fought in wars to ensure that people have the right to choice. I'm not about to dishonor them with other beliefs... Which, incidentally, I do not have.

It's all about choice, man. I choose a different system than most. What you experienced in DIR-F is what I've chosen, not because I was forced to or "brainwashed" to, but through trial and error and an open mind. If you check my DIR-F report, you'll see that even right after the class, I still exercised my right to choose and try a solo dive in a jacket BC. However, after at least getting a glance at what could be versus what was, I was able to make an educated decision based on personal experience, others' experiences, and of course, some classroom time.

I invite everyone to do the same. I might point out what I've seen up to this point, but I am by no means an expert - and don't feel that anyone should tell anyone else how to dive.

Please, by all means... Exercise choice. And please respect mine as well.

...And expect that those choices might sometimes seem offensive to others. Believe me, I get more *stuff* about being DIR than y'all get about *not* being DIR.

[BigJetDriver]

SeaJay once bubbled...
...But hey, if you're getting flamed, then you're in good company...GI3 gets flamed...

But there's nothing wrong with being nice, you know.

...And certainly, if you, the flamer, are representing DIR, remember UP's words: "You may not be the best example of DIR." Please remember the words that you were no doubt told in your DIR-F class about "being an ambassador..." After all, you are the minority...

I like SeaJay's caution to the more aggressive members of the DIR community that it would be helpful to remember to act as "ambassadors". He is quite right, you know. There is nothing wrong with being nice.

This would have to be the lesson that George Irvine III skipped in school somewhere. While he can be quite pleasant in person, and can manage to make reasonable and informative presentations in public, as soon as he gets near an Internet keyboard, the psychopath in him comes to the fore.

His public posts in the case of divers who have died have been insulting, vitriolic, harmful in the extreme, and hurtful to the friends and loved ones of the deceased.

Even George's friends admit that they wish they could keep him away from a keyboard. His diving exploits entitle him to opine about diving and its practice. Nothing, however,.....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING...entitles him, or anyone for that matter, to spew the kind of sociopathic hate speech that he vomits forth. While we expect such venom and drivel from racists and terrorists, it is ultimately much more shocking when foaming and frothing from the mouth of someone in George's position.

We are trying to make it plain that hate speech is not an acceptable form of expression in this land of ours. I, for one, wish to Heaven that someone could make that plain to GI3. :box:

[paulwlee]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Frankly, I'm not of the "one size fits all" ilk. I may have given that impression, but it's not the case at all. I'm actually of the, "this is what I believe to be the best system" ilk,


It's kind of the same thing, because you're saying you believe it's the best system for everyone. But I was just kidding anyway. :D



My father and my grandfather and his father before him fought in wars to ensure that people have the right to choice.

Just out of curiosity, which ones? WW1,2,Vietnam?



It's all about choice, man. I choose a different system than most. What you experienced in DIR-F is what I've chosen, not because I was forced to or "brainwashed" to, but through trial and error and an open mind.
Yep, same for me.

[SeaJay]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled...

...There is nothing wrong with being nice.

This would have to be the lesson that George Irvine III skipped in school somewhere.


Heh.

Heh heh.

Heheheheeee...

"No comment." :D

You should see him on the Quest list. Maaaaannn... It's just a good thing that y'all don't see him there.

I respect the man for his accomplishments. I listen. But he sure doesn't make it easy.


paulwlee once bubbled...

But I was just kidding anyway.


Aw, heck... I know. I was just trying to ensure that I don't somehow get alienated - or have others feel alienated - because of a difference in opinion.



Just out of curiosity, which ones? WW1,2,Vietnam?


WWI (infantry), WWII (infantry, translator), Korea (clerk), and Vietnam (pilot). My father did three tours in Vietnam in an O2 reconnaisance aircraft on the Ho Chi Min trail... Then continued to serve his country in the Cold War flying U2 spy aircraft in the early '70's. Later, he was an instructor pilot in Mississippi, and then for a summer or two at Red Flag... He retired after flying a variety of fighters, including the F16, at the age of 56 - due to medical problems from the lifetime of high G's. I am the first "Howard L. Bayne" (I'm the 4th) to not serve his country. I'm also the first to graduate from a military academy. Frankly, after that, and after living the military lifestyle as a child, I can tell you that it simply wasn't for me. I wanted to own my own company. I built my first when I was 23. Now, at 33, I own a wireless internet service provider, and I'm very happy. Best of all, it's somewhat of a "branch" of my father's communications company, so I get to be involved with my family - which was a privilege that I did not have for many years while I lived in Arizona. It hasn't been a bed of roses, but I'm free to choose, and I choose to continue to be with my family (large, Southern family). :)

...Sorry. Back to your regularly scheduled program. :)

[ElectricZombie]

I do beleive in the DIR style of diving and consider myself to be a DIR diver.

I chose to be DIR because I am the type of person who requires a logical explanation as to why something is done a certain way. Efficiency and logic is my goal and DIR provides on both accounts. If you can't give me a sound reason for why you do something, there is a problem. Diving can potentially be deady, sound reasoning is important. There is sound reasoning behind DIR despite what some critics claim. DIR is not simply "do as we say because we said so".

I've done my research, read a ton of DIR info, practiced constantly and taken the DIRF class. I have come to the conclusion that DIR is "the way to go". The hollistic approach to diving that is DIR simply makes the most sense. I teach my basic students the same skills that DIR advocates and can attest to the great difference it makes. If you start a basic student out with the DIR principles and skills, you will have a diver that is far better than any of the other OW Instructors that I have ever met.

I take my diving extremely seriously, I'm harder on myself than anyone else could ever be. I practice extremely hard and am looking for perfection. DIR is not the place for mediocrity and I like that. I dive for fun, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to settle for poor skills.

As for DIR guys being jerks, all I can say is that has not been my experience. When I did my DIRF class, the GUE Instructors were some of the nicest guys you could ever hope to meet. They never called anyone a stroke and were always professional. There are some DIR guys that have an attitude, but that is not typical of most DIR divers. Everyone complains about George, but I have heard from people that have dove with him that he is actually a really nice guy in person. Don't make assumptions about all DIR divers just becuase there are a few morons.

Before you come to a conclusion about DIR, do the research first. Look at the DIR system with an open mind and give it an honest try. Most people who try DIR like it. If you don't like it, no one is going to make you become DIR. Decide for yourself, but evaluate logically. Based on my experience, I choose DIR.

[paulwlee]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
I teach my basic students the same skills that DIR advocates and can attest to the great difference it makes. If you start a basic student out with the DIR principles and skills, you will have a diver that is far better than any of the other OW Instructors that I have ever met.

ElectricZombie, so how do the students do? I'd think that doing things like mask removal/replacement while hovering horizontally will take a fair amount of pool time for OW students to do right.
It would be nice to know that it can be done within a reasonable class framework.

[ElectricZombie]

They do quite well actually. It really depends on how long the class is though. With an average length class of about 2 weeks (around 30 - 40 hours total I guess), you can get students to exhibit all the basic DIR skills including the mask removal. Their bouyancy changes a bit since they are new to the skills, but they look good...100X better than the average student you usually see.

This one guy I taught was just a natural. He has probably 30 - 40 dives now, but if you saw him in the water, you would think he was a cave diver.

People seem to have the notion that DIR concepts are hard to teach or transition to...it's really not.

[roturner]

paulwlee once bubbled...
With respect to yet another DIR-bashing at the beginning of this thread, I find it very interesting, because:

Every DIR diver(or diver adhering to 'most' of its tenets) I met in person, or interacted with in a local BB, were very nice people, and had done much experimentation before settling on DIR.
After taking DIR-F a couple weeks ago, I am also convinced that they have a system that really works. (And no, they haven't invented each and every aspect of it. They just put things together to work well. Nothing wrong with that.)

<snip>

That's not my experience. With notable exceptions who I do in fact respect despite the negative circles they move in, the small DIR community in Holland overrun by intollerable pricks. Their verbal abuse is not limited to internet forums, they "buzz" other divers with their scooters and laugh about stressing out the strokes they go on and on about how bad the strokes dive even though I think, no I'm sure, I personally know at least a dozen divers who could dive circles around virtually the entire Dutch DIR community, they've even tried arranging boycots of certain stores to force them to stop selling OMS wings. And that's just to name a few. I could go on but in short, they're completely sociopathic and the arrogance is absolutely unbelievable - with a few exceptions. It's not the other way around here. Thankfully they tend to dive at one particular location (which for me has a complexity factor of zero) so you can avoid them to a certain extent.

But I don't blame them. I dislike them and I want nothing to do with them and I'm loathe to even remotely look like them in terms of configuration but I don't blame them. They're only emulating their heros.

R..

[Albion]

was this guy who threw all the non DIR gear out of the way so he could set up, - fuming

But during the dive, we was showing us all his unimaginable skills which involved holding scooter with one hand, video with the other whilst his G/F held onto one of his legs whilst he was circling the funnel of a wreck

[SeaJay]

That's awful.

Well, I can also vouch for the DIR guys that I've met... They're really nice people; especially the GUE instructors.

Funny how the ones doing the teaching - those that "really know, and know that they know" - are the nicest ones. I mean, the people that actually have justification for arrogance - aren't arrogant at all.

I'm sorry that that is your impression of DIR. Let me be the first to say that "They might not be the best example of DIR." :)


Albion once bubbled...

But during the dive, we was showing us all his unimaginable skills which involved holding scooter with one hand, video with the other whilst his G/F held onto one of his legs whilst he was circling the funnel of a wreck

I... Uhhh... Am pretty sure that wasn't taught in DIR-F class. :D

Man, so much for those people being "ambassadors." :angry:

I'm surprised that the non-DIR types haven't taken a pigsticker to their wings. I would have. Maybe a handful of monofilament in the prop of their Gavin?

So much for "me" being a good ambassador, eh? :out: The truth is that I would never do anything like that, but it certainly is fun to consider.

Some people are just jerks - DIR or not.

[detroit diver]

paulwlee once bubbled...


ElectricZombie, so how do the students do? I'd think that doing things like mask removal/replacement while hovering horizontally will take a fair amount of pool time for OW students to do right.
It would be nice to know that it can be done within a reasonable class framework.


Paulwlee,

Like ElecticZombie, the Scubaguys are teaching OW classes with skills from DIR. Check out their site:

www.scubaguys.com

These are standard length PADI OW classes.

They've found that if you show the students what to reach for, they will take it upon themselves (with help of course) to emulate the instructor. If the instuctor is hovering horizontally, the student will try to do likewise. On the other hand, if the instructor is kneeling or sitting on the bottom, guess what the student will aspire to?

It works. You just have to 1. Want to teach to a higher level, and 2. Know the difference.

[Saturation]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...


This poll has not worked too well, Doc.

You may want to try it again.

Maybe title it:

POLL OF GEAR CONFIGURATIONS: PLEASE PARTICIPATE

1) GUE/DIR

2) OTHER CAVE DIR

3) PARTIALLY DIR

4) UNCONCERNED WITH DIR TO ANY DEGREE

Definition: DIR -- a cave diving related configuration that has become know among even non-cave divers in modern times.

Thanks Karl, but the poll is working fine. The trend in distribution has not changed since the poll began, and the numbers are building.

Its similar to this older poll:
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31934&highlight=Poll


Most polls in SB rarely go over 50 votes for the entire run, that we have this in 24hr is good. Few have over 100 votes, and a handful are near a 1000.

Thanks to SeaJay for being the spokesperson, of good humor and diplomat for the DIR set.

[Big-t-2538]

detroit diver once bubbled...

They've found that if you show the students what to reach for, they will take it upon themselves (with help of course) to emulate the instructor. If the instuctor is hovering horizontally, the student will try to do likewise. On the other hand, if the instructor is kneeling or sitting on the bottom, guess what the student will aspire to?

It is sort of like mokey see...monkey do....you know...monkeys are much like students...unwise...un-educated...and looking for a role model...

God help all students that look to me.

[VTernovski]

ok, I think I have enough of this DIR vs non-DIR BS. So, I am considering flying down to San Diego to take the DIR-F too see for myself. So far, I have only heard opinions of others on how DIR folks are, most of those opinons and comments are not very positive, which is unfortunate, but I am not going to take this negativity without checking it out for myself. So far I haven't met anyone wh is DIR and is exactly like being described...

THis is one notion that I heard that kinda bothered me in regards to DIR pepople, I actually heard this from one instructor (Hogarthian, but non-DIR); Here is how he described DIR people:

non DIR person comments - "Hey man, you gear configuration is wrong"

DIR person comments - "Hey man, you gear configuration is wrong and you are going to die"

Anyway, I will post my report after I take the DIRF class to see if the common notion is indeed true or not.

[VTernovski]

It's sad. however, I have also met anough of PADI a%%holes too... its just the proportions are very different. DIR is a relativelly small community, in my opinion in comparison to PADI.



roturner once bubbled...


That's not my experience. With notable exceptions who I do in fact respect despite the negative circles they move in, the small DIR community in Holland overrun by intollerable pricks. Their verbal abuse is not limited to internet forums, they "buzz" other divers with their scooters and laugh about stressing out the strokes they go on and on about how bad the strokes dive even though I think, no I'm sure, I personally know at least a dozen divers who could dive circles around virtually the entire Dutch DIR community, they've even tried arranging boycots of certain stores to force them to stop selling OMS wings. And that's just to name a few. I could go on but in short, they're completely sociopathic and the arrogance is absolutely unbelievable - with a few exceptions. It's not the other way around here. Thankfully they tend to dive at one particular location (which for me has a complexity factor of zero) so you can avoid them to a certain extent.

But I don't blame them. I dislike them and I want nothing to do with them and I'm loathe to even remotely look like them in terms of configuration but I don't blame them. They're only emulating their heros.

R..

[Big-t-2538]

VTernovski once bubbled...
ok, I think I have enough of this DIR vs non-DIR BS. So, I am considering flying down to San Diego to take the DIR-F too see for myself. That would be cool...is there no class closer to you than the one in SD? Who are going to be your instructors? When are ya taking it...

I will say now, it will be a fun-filled weekend...the class is nothing short of entertaining. Even if you have a good handle on everything that is presented, it is professionally delivered, and each instructor I have met has been more than happy to spend loads of one on one time with students.

[VTernovski]

Big-T

I thought I saw something on the website in regard to January/February timeframe classes. BUt now I don't see any for 2004 listed at all. I can't remeber who will be teaching, I was hoping it would be MHK since I 've heard nothing but the good things about him. I don't know much about others, but I am sure they are also fine instructors.
How much is the class anyway? Since I am not lagging my tanks with me, will there be a way for me to rent doubles?

I am in New York, and no nothing of DIR-F classes offered in my area. There are probbaly not. THe shop that I know of is Sting Ray divers that have two GUE instructors, but last time I asked they don't actually teach GUE/DIR there.




Big-t-2538 once bubbled...
That would be cool...is there no class closer to you than the one in SD? Who are going to be your instructors? When are ya taking it...

I will say now, it will be a fun-filled weekend...the class is nothing short of entertaining. Even if you have a good handle on everything that is presented, it is professionally delivered, and each instructor I have met has been more than happy to spend loads of one on one time with students.

[sasdasdaf]

VTernovski,

I took DIR-F with Andrew Georgitsis, MHK, and Sonya in August 2002 at Dutch Springs, PA. I enjoyed the class so much that I took it again with Bob Sherwood on the St. Lawrence River this past July.

Both options are great, and all the instructors are excellent.

Andrew G and MHK might come here if you arrange a group of people to take the class. Alternatively, if you don't mind a 6 hour drive, go see Bob. The diving on the St. Lawrence is fantastic.

Stingray used to have Tony Thomas (ex-GUE instructor) on staff, but he no longer works there.

There's a group of us here in or around NYC who dive DIR. PM me if you would like more information.

[VTernovski]

Excellent sasdasdaf, thank you!
I just was in St. Lawrence (ABUCS in Brockville) a few weeks ago and obsolutelly loved it.

Would definatelly like to meet you guys. I donlt know if I can get anough of people to get interested in it thogh. Unfortunatelly, I can only speak for myself at this point.





sasdasdaf once bubbled...
VTernovski,

I took DIR-F with Andrew Georgitsis, MHK, and Sonya in August 2002 at Dutch Springs, PA. I enjoyed the class so much that I took it again with Bob Sherwood on the St. Lawrence River this past July.

Both options are great, and all the instructors are excellent.

Andrew G and MHK might come here if you arrange a group of people to take the class. Alternatively, if you don't mind a 6 hour drive, go see Bob. The diving on the St. Lawrence is fantastic.

Stingray used to have Tony Thomas (ex-GUE instructor) on staff, but he no longer works there.

There's a group of us here in or around NYC who dive DIR. PM me if you would like more information.

[Big-t-2538]

VTernovski once bubbled...
Bi
I thought I saw something on the website in regard to January/February timeframe classes. BUt now I don't see any for 2004 listed at all. PM MHK and see if he can't help you in some fashion. You can also go to the GUE site and e-mail any of the instructors on there. Almost every one of them is 1 very helpful and 2, very busy, but they will get back to you as soon as they can. Also in the Detroit area are the Scuba Guys (http://www.scubaguys.com) who are instructors in the midwest and have been very helpful to me in the class, but they are busy with a Fundy's class this weekend, so they may not get back to you right now.

The cost of the class for me was like 350, but it's worth it.

[KentuckyDiver]

Do ya'all think I coulds Take a DIR tipes uf class an pay foe it with cattle?

[detroit diver]

Cincy,

Read this and then tell me about your aversion to the long hose:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39434

Please tell me. What would have been better:

a. A buddy with a long hose that could give a little distance between divers to 1. communicate and 2. use their gear properly

or

b. your suggestion that taking the reg out of your mouth for a second is a flaw and thus keep the same configuration of short hose and octo.





CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...
OK, first of all it needs to be made aware that I NEVER SAID or made a valid point about strangulation with that 7 footer. It might have been Karl or some Karl-Like figure.

The other thing is...We may hit 50 pages again...:D

OK...One valid point that I did make that some people just can't swallow is.........The fact that you have two divers without air or a reg in their mouth for a brief moment hopefully...HOPEFULLY just a brief moment when you donate the primary (FACT!!!!). To me this opens up the door to have two paniced divers instead of one. When you donate your octo...The chance of two paniced divers is significantly less than donated your primary.

This is enough to turn me away from donating the primary.

I'm sure you can understand my point. I'm not asking you have to swallow it...But just say you understand it.

No name calling or bashing intended if anyone saw it that way!:)

[CincyBengalsFan]

detroit diver once bubbled...
Cincy,

Read this and then tell me about your aversion to the long hose:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39434

Please tell me. What would have been better:

a. A buddy with a long hose that could give a little distance between divers to 1. communicate and 2. use their gear properly

or

b. your suggestion that taking the reg out of your mouth for a second is a flaw and thus keep the same configuration of short hose and octo.


What in sams absolute hell do you want detroit flawless diver? MY GOD. Get over it with me and move on. I have my opinions for very good reason. How many trips to central Fla. have you made. How many rumors of cave deaths have you heard vs. what the report came out to say. Probably very little. So whatever your problem is get the heck over it and move on with your life! I know it's cold up there but damn! No wonder my family wants to get the heck out of MI. Maybe you can help run them out a little faster.

Do you want me to have someone get on this scubaboard and make something up claiming a death due to your configuration now? Please take some lessons from SeaJay on how to write and act in general.

Not to mention when did I say the short hose was the best. I never have you idiot!

My problem stands with dontating the primary and that still stands due to what I know and the rumors I've heard down in central Florida (cave country in case you missed that one or want to argue about it to).

Point: MOVE ON PLEASE..I'm finished with you. Send SeaJay debating to me if you want.

[detroit diver]

When you call me an idiot and make it personal, then you can't get rid of me.

Your reasoning is flawed. No more, no less. And you try to take a very minor procedure (reg removal and replace) that EVERY diver learns in OW, and turn it into a flaw. It just doesn't hold water-pun intended.

I did not make up that story, nor do I even know the person that wrote it. It's a little scary that you have to suggest this to diminish my point and boost yours. Send the guy a PM if you're so suspect of my intentions.

And if you're going to rely on rumors to make your point, please do so in advance. Then everyone can ignore the words that follow the rumor.

Until then, I'll keep replying to stuff that I see as wrong or dangerous.

Dive safe.




CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


What in sams absolute hell do you want detroit flawless diver? MY GOD. Get over it with me and move on. I have my opinions for very good reason. How many trips to central Fla. have you made. How many rumors of cave deaths have you heard vs. what the report came out to say. Probably very little. So whatever your problem is get the heck over it and move on with your life! I know it's cold up there but damn! No wonder my family wants to get the heck out of MI. Maybe you can help run them out a little faster.

Do you want me to have someone get on this scubaboard and make something up claiming a death due to your configuration now? Please take some lessons from SeaJay on how to write and act in general.

Not to mention when did I say the short hose was the best. I never have you idiot!

My problem stands with dontating the primary and that still stands due to what I know and the rumors I've heard down in central Florida (cave country in case you missed that one or want to argue about it to).

Point: MOVE ON PLEASE..I'm finished with you. Send SeaJay debating to me if you want.

[CincyBengalsFan]

Okay, sorry about the idiot. I wish you would put me on your ignore list though.

Am I supposed to base my decissions on one accident? Is this how donating your primary came about, by one accident or near accident?

Do you make decissions because of one accident. Should we put red lights at every intersection in the country where there has been one accident?

[SeaJay]

detroit diver once bubbled...
When you call me an idiot and make it personal, then you can't get rid of me.


You're not an idiot. We all know that.

Cincy's frustrated. You would be, too, if you were getting all of the arguments against your gear choice. (And we all know that happens often.)

Let it go, man. So what if he chooses another config? It's not your choice or mine... So what?



Your reasoning is flawed. No more, no less. And you try to take a very minor procedure (reg removal and replace) that EVERY diver learns in OW, and turn it into a flaw.


He's expressed that he has his reasons for feeling the way he does. You have your reasons for feeling the way you do. Why does this have to get into a yelling match?

The difference between opinions might be an issue if y'all were diving together, but you're not. There's nothing more you can do than express your opinion, and even disagree... Anything further only serves to foster bad feelings and encourage divers on both sides of the issue at hand to be bitter toward the other.

I love ya, DD... Please don't let this eat at you.

Cincy... I know you're frustrated at the constant nagging from us long-hosers. But DD's definitely not an idiot, and he didn't deserve to receive the brunt of your frustration with us. At the very least, DD's another diver with another set of experiences - just like you are. We'd all be better off if we got along and confidently shared our opinions...

That said, I'm backing away slowly so I don't get beat up here. :D

[CincyBengalsFan]

SeaJay once bubbled...


You're not an idiot. We all know that.

Cincy's frustrated. You would be, too, if you were getting all of the arguments against your gear choice. (And we all know that happens often.)

Let it go, man. So what if he chooses another config? It's not your choice or mine... So what?



He's expressed that he has his reasons for feeling the way he does. You have your reasons for feeling the way you do. Why does this have to get into a yelling match?

The difference between opinions might be an issue if y'all were diving together, but you're not. There's nothing more you can do than express your opinion, and even disagree... Anything further only serves to foster bad feelings and encourage divers on both sides of the issue at hand to be bitter toward the other.

I love ya, DD... Please don't let this eat at you.

Cincy... I know you're frustrated at the constant nagging from us long-hosers. But DD's definitely not an idiot, and he didn't deserve to receive the brunt of your frustration with us. At the very least, DD's another diver with another set of experiences - just like you are. We'd all be better off if we got along and confidently shared our opinions...

That said, I'm backing away slowly so I don't get beat up here. :D

Well, even with the great mediating..DD did say his way was "flawless". I just find that hard to believe. Because nothing is flawless. Not even little ole me.

[SeaJay]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


Well, even with the great mediating..DD did say his way was "flawless". I just find that hard to believe. Because nothing is flawless. Not even little ole me.

I think the biggest flaw in the long hose system is the arguments that it fosters.

[CincyBengalsFan]

SeaJay once bubbled...


I think the biggest flaw in the long hose system is the arguments that it fosters.

I'm not saying that isn't true....But again my pickle is with donating the primary not really the long hose. I guess if the long hose was the OCTO. I would be a happy camper with everyone....Wait a minute..Not everyone..There is always someone that disagrees...Kind of like me..:D

[CincyBengalsFan]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...



The biggest flaw is WHICH long hose to buy?

The 5 ft, the 6 ft, or the 7 ft??

Or buy them ALL???

Hey, I've got a 25' hose for a pnuematic drill we use underwater. Talk about fun! Maybe I can rig that up to a reg. for you Karl. :D

[SeaJay]

The 7-footer works great for me as long as I've got someplace to put the loop. It can be tucked into the harness, tucked under a "Harness Pocket," or tucked under a can light.

The 5-footer, IMHO, works great if you can't do any of the three above options.

The 6-footer, IMHO, works better for me (tall) if I can't tuck, and works better for RavenC (short) if she CAN tuck.

But hey, that's just what we've found. Your mileage may vary. :)

Since she and I both dive bp/wings with harness pockets (soon to be moving to can lights), we've found that a 7-footer for me and a 6-footer for her work well in all situations, and we don't bother to dive anything else. It keeps things simple, and our "muscle memory" sharp.

[roturner]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


I'm not saying that isn't true....But again my pickle is with donating the primary not really the long hose. I guess if the long hose was the OCTO. I would be a happy camper with everyone....Wait a minute..Not everyone..There is always someone that disagrees...Kind of like me..:D

You know what you need to do, Phillip? You need to do the equipment exchange that you do for DM with the shorthose and then with the longhose/primary. For experienced divers the long hose is way, way way way way way way way easier. The equipment exchange exercise will convince you.

For OW students it might be another matter. But with a few minutes in the pool it should be obvious too. WE used to *all* learn buddy breathing. Remember? Anyone can learn to survive 30 seconds or so without the regulator in their mouth. If you've taught even marginally well most of your students will get it on the first go-round. Really.

R..

[CincyBengalsFan]

roturner once bubbled...


You know what you need to do, Phillip? You need to do the equipment exchange that you do for DM with the shorthose and then with the longhose/primary. For experienced divers the long hose is way, way way way way way way way easier. The equipment exchange exercise will convince you.

For OW students it might be another matter. But with a few minutes in the pool it should be obvious too. WE used to *all* learn buddy breathing. Remember? Anyone can learn to survive 30 seconds or so without the regulator in their mouth. If you've taught even marginally well most of your students will get it on the first go-round. Really.

R..

Well, I bet your right on the equipment exchange. But do we really want to make it easier on DM training...Shoot NO.....Let's bust their butts and make sure their the best DM they can be.

[OneBrightGator]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...
-snip-

Do you want to know how to really tee-off a scuba store owner? Wear your tech gear to teach an open water class.

I do.

BP, wings and a 7 ft hose on the way, and no bones about it.

Ah, love my shop :)

Ben

[roturner]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...


Well, I bet your right on the equipment exchange. But do we really want to make it easier on DM training...Shoot NO.....Let's bust their butts and make sure their the best DM they can be.

Agreed. But that happens after the training anyway....... :)

R..

[Greg Barlow]

You might be surprised to find that there are dive shops that actually teach open water students to use a long hose-bungeed back up regulator set-up. This will most likely become more common as time goes on.

By the way, I personally use the long hose system on all of my dives, whether they be recreational or technical in nature. I can honestly find no logical reason not to do so.

Diving has changed a great deal since I began in 1975, but ironically the early single hose second stages had a necklace built into the mouthpiece or exhaust tee.

The main reason that I use the same reg configuration is that I don't want to deviate from what becomes an instinctive motion to locate and utilize my necklaced back up regulator. It is also a very clean and orderly method that effectively limits the "danglies".

I was fortunate to serve as the Science Editor for Rodale's Scuba Diving Magazine for a couple of years. During that enjoyable tenure, I had the opportunity to discuss this reg configuration with others in the profession. There are a number of others in the industry that also share the prediction about it becoming more and more popular in the future of recreational diving.

Greg Barlow

[SeaJay]

I wanna know more about being an editor for Rodales. :)

[CincyBengalsFan]

Greg Barlow once bubbled...
You might be surprised to find that there are dive shops that actually teach open water students to use a long hose-bungeed back up regulator set-up. This will most likely become more common as time goes on.
Greg Barlow

uhhhhhhhh.....I do know of some dive shops that teach this...But they are few are far between. I don't see this happening in the next 20 yrs.

[paulwlee]

roturner once bubbled...


You know what you need to do, Phillip? You need to do the equipment exchange that you do for DM with the shorthose and then with the longhose/primary.

Hey, that gives me an idea! We should have all DMC's do the equipment exchange, hovering in a neutral horizontal position!
Obviously one would need to get out of horizontal to take off fins and BC(or BP/wing), but horizontal at other times. There should be a little leeway on maintaining depth, as once the BC is exchanged they will have to adjust the buoyancy to their needs.
:D:D:D

But seriously, once I did some S-drills during DIRF class with my 5ft hose, I realized that I wasn't going back to the normal 32" hose with 36~40" octo I had been using for the past decade.

[roturner]

paulwlee once bubbled...


Hey, that gives me an idea! We should have all DMC's do the equipment exchange, hovering in a neutral horizontal position!
Obviously one would need to get out of horizontal to take off fins and BC(or BP/wing), but horizontal at other times. There should be a little leeway on maintaining depth, as once the BC is exchanged they will have to adjust the buoyancy to their needs.
:D:D:D

But seriously, once I did some S-drills during DIRF class with my 5ft hose, I realized that I wasn't going back to the normal 32" hose with 36~40" octo I had been using for the past decade.

CMAS has a neutral buoyancy kit removal/replacement skill. I think you need to do it for instructor. Sounds like fun.

R..

[Greg Barlow]

would you like to know about the unglamorous life of deadlines, research, interviews, rewrites, photo shoots, and more rewrites?

[CincyBengalsFan]

roturner once bubbled...


CMAS has a neutral buoyancy kit removal/replacement skill. I think you need to do it for instructor. Sounds like fun.

R..

I'm a CMAS instructor....:D :D :) Come on down and I would be happy to show a few folks what neutral bouyancy is all about. :D

[paulwlee]

roturner once bubbled...


CMAS has a neutral buoyancy kit removal/replacement skill. I think you need to do it for instructor. Sounds like fun.

R..

I thought CMAS cards were issued by local CMAS-affiliated training organizations that met some requirements, and hence the training standards (other than the minimum) differed from organization to organization?

But anyway, I think the hard part in a neutral buoyancy exchange is not the don/doff part, but the exchange part. :D
If that's too easy for you, (really, it may be, since the overall buoyancy is neutral, you just need to hold onto each other until you are able to adjust the exchanged BC's) then how about including the exposure suit! Hows THAT! And NEUTRAL! And properly TRIMMED! :D :D :D

[SeaJay]

Greg Barlow once bubbled...
would you like to know about the unglamorous life of deadlines, research, interviews, rewrites, photo shoots, and more rewrites?

Check your PM's... Taking this offlist. :)

[roturner]

roturner once bubbled...


That's not my experience. <snip hurtful post>

R..

All,

I recently joined the Dutch DIR mailing list and I was immediately confronted with this post. It was an emotional generalisation that was understandably highly insulting to many good people who recognise nothing of the accusations I made. In posting this I made myself guilty of the very behaviour I so dislike when it is directed towards me and I wish to retract the statement and apologize to all those who I insulted.

R..

[SeaJay]

<applause>

Now that is impressive. :)

I wish all of us - no matter what the debate, and no matter what side of it we're on - could remember how to do this.

Roturner, for the record - I can only speak for myself, but I wasn't offended. There was a time when I would have been, but your initial attitude of "those guys are a$$holes" is one that I see on both sides of this debate... And the more I have run into it, the less it seems to affect me. So... My skin's thickened a good bit... And I wasn't offended. Frankly, after hearing about your experiences with DIR guys there, I can understand why you'd have the attitude about them that you do (or did).

But your words definitely mean a lot to me, nonetheless... And my bet is that they'll mean a lot to others here too.

But man, I gotta admit - a public apology is quite a tough thing to do... Impressive. :)

Bravo, man.

[roturner]

SeaJay once bubbled...
<applause>

Now that is impressive. :)

I wish all of us - no matter what the debate, and no matter what side of it we're on - could remember how to do this.

<snip>

You know, the stupid thing about it is that at some point I became so wrapped up in feeling insulted that I completely lost track of the fact that I was doing exactly the same thing that I hate so much :rolleyes: . My DIR bashing days are over. I don't want to be part of the problem. And now I just hope this thread dies because I feel pretty stupid.

R..

[SeaJay]

roturner once bubbled...

And now I just hope this thread dies because I feel pretty stupid.

R..

We all do it... Or have done it. It's to be expected when your experiences support your opinion.

We do it from BOTH sides, man... That's where the term "DIR N.A.Z.I" and the term, "stroke" both come from.

While I've never used the term "stroke," but I HAVE used the other... Back before I knew anything about DIR. In fact, I used it (jokingly, but still) on this board.

The bottom line is, if that's been your experience, then don't feel bad for having that opinion... Just know that you might be surrounded by a particular flavor of individual that's throwing your assessment off. In your case, you just need to see some good examples of people who aren't "N.A.Z.Is." :)

It's no big deal, man. :) Don't feel bad... And definitely don't feel stupid.

[MikeFerrara]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...



Do you want to know how to really tee-off a scuba store owner? Wear your tech gear to teach an open water class.

That wasn't true around my store. I only have one set of gear (it's a big set though) and I use it for everything including technical dives.

[bwerb]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...


The store owners are the scuba gods. They decide what is right and what is wrong, and how things will be done at their store.

And I have never known any of them to read the internet scuba sites simply because they do not have the time. After retirement may in fact be a different story, of course!


Karl...little secret, just between us...

Mike was the shop owner and he was/is a consistent poster here.

just another little secret...there are a bunch more of them here too:shhhh:

[cornfed]

CincyBengalsFan once bubbled...

blah, blah, blah...

I don't dive with the long hose.

I practice all of the above often.


Why do you have to practice not diving with a long hose? Is it because deep down inside you really, really want one? :D

[cornfed]

SeaJay once bubbled...


I'm a nice guy, and therefore I can never be DIR.
Now, I find that insulting.


Oh, come on, SeaJay... it was only a couple weeks ago that we determined you a jerk? <ducks>

[SeaJay]

...Or storyteller, or copyright infringer, or SOMETHING. :D

Heck, I just wanna go diving... And talk about diving on my surface interval...

[VTernovski]

Hey SeeJay, slight off the topic here, but it was kinda bugging me... how come you look different on these two photographs? imean the one of your avatar and the one on the profile..

Just curious.

-VT

[SeaJay]

Lol. Just kidding.

Well... One's with longer hair, windblown from a day's diving, and shot "upwards" making me look like some muscle-freak. :)

The other is me with short hair, done up while I'm in the office. No sunglasses.

I think my daily look is somewhere in-between. :)

You aren't the first to notice that. In fact, I've been questioned similarly about totally different photos.

I can tell you that I'm a big guy, and that any weight loss/gain (which is common for me according to season, diet, etc.) is really obvious in my face...

Maybe I should have some new pictures taken. Those are about a year old (and only like three months apart).

Actually, it's a good thing that my face is so different from picture to picture. Otherwise, someone might recognize me. :)

It's been a few years since I left my previous line of work... I'm thinking of going back down to my previous fitness level... It would be nice; I miss it.

[cornfed]

SeaJay once bubbled...
...Or storyteller, or copyright infringer, or SOMETHING. :D


Could be worse. Apparently, I'm that belligerent drunk at the end of the bar...



Heck, I just wanna go diving... And talk about diving on my surface interval...

****, sorry... Didn't realize where I was... :D

[cornfed]

SeaJay once bubbled...

Maybe I should have some new pictures taken. Those are about a year old (and only like three months apart).


Here ya go...

http://www.tvbarn.com/ark/images/pets_sock-puppet.jpg

[Big-t-2538]

cornfed once bubbled...
Could be worse. Apparently, I'm that belligerent drunk at the end of the bar...Well drew, we all have a role to play in life....there are far worse choices of people for you to be :D

[cornfed]

Big-t-2538 once bubbled...
Well drew, we all have a role to play in life....there are far worse choices of people for you to be :D

LOL, thanks. It involved drinking so I'm not surprised you approve.

[Big-t-2538]

cornfed once bubbled...
It involved drinking so I'm not surprised you approve. CORRECTION!!!....Being a beligerent drunk involves massive amounts of alcoholic consumtion....herby gaining my approval! :haha:

sorry, it is one of those mornings at work.

[SeaJay]

cornfed once bubbled...


Here ya go...

http://www.tvbarn.com/ark/images/pets_sock-puppet.jpg

Funny.

I know you're kidding (at least I think you are), but who am I supposed to be a sockpuppet for?

I'd be one helluva successful sockpuppet, man, with something like 1400 or 1500 posts... And a good disguise, since I've met and dived with some of the people here.

But heck, I figure you were just kidding... Maybe I'm thick and not really "getting it." :)

Great picture. :D

[Big-t-2538]

SeaJay once bubbled...
Maybe I'm thick and not really "getting it." :)
I am more convinced now than ever since I read the post in your "dillusional" thread...:D It is possible there's a correlation

[cornfed]

SeaJay once bubbled...

I know you're kidding (at least I think you are),


Of course I am.



but who am I supposed to be a sockpuppet for?


GI. You're DIR so you can't possibly think for yourself.... or at least that's how the saying goes... (kidding here too)



Maybe I'm thick and not really "getting it." :)
Do we need to go over this again? :D

[SeaJay]

cornfed once bubbled...

[You're supposed to be a sockpuppet for] GI.


HAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAA!!! Ow. I think I pulled something. Holy crap, man... You have to warn me before hitting me with a punchline like that. :D

GI3 sockpuppets are easy to spot... They use the word "convoluted." :D

[cornfed]

SeaJay once bubbled...

GI3 sockpuppets are easy to spot... They use the word "convoluted." :D

I think I used that the other day... ****!

[DIR]

cornfed once bubbled...

GI. You're DIR (kidding here too)

:D

I thought I was the DIR sockpuppet????:confused: :D :D

[cornfed]

DIR once bubbled...


I thought I was the DIR sockpuppet????:confused: :D :D

Nice job quoting me, um... er.. MISQUOTING me.

[ElectricZombie]

SeaJay once bubbled...

GI3 sockpuppets are easy to spot... They use the word "convoluted." :D

Oh no...I use "convoluted" all the time.

"Get a load of that convoluted setup...convoluted regs with a convoluted BC. How does he convolute so much? He's such a convoluter. Stupid convolute will pay for his convolutedness!"

:D

[SeaJay]

Hahahahahhahaaaa!!!

[Saturation]

Thanks for contribution and insights folks.

As the poll is closed here's the rationale for yet another DIR vs others inquiry:

No one has defined DIR other than Jablonski and Irvine, and so by default their publications remains the clearest description of the system. Jarrod has also defined what Hogarthian is, although it continues to be debated to this day; Tom Mount had a description in IANTD writings for example. Some think of Hogarthian as DIR-lite but its undeniably just gear configuration than about gases, procedures, and technique.

But it seems many understand the meaning accurately as few are truly DIR, which is literally an all-or-none philosophy.

If one is 'configured' DIR but not following 100% of their precepts, as per JJ and G3, such a diver is only DIR-inspired which at the minimum is Hogarthian [if you configure your gear cave-style] _and_ whatever mix of procedures you use, DIR or not.

So, if you dive a backplate, wing, backup reg as a necklace, long hose, canister light, doubles configured manifold up, backup lights on harness etc., you are at least Hogarthian. 68% at least by this poll. It is simply a clean way to configure gear.

Most technical divers today are diving Hogarthian more than anything else, and the rest, such as procedures and gas usage, is the product of one's certification training or adaptations and is without a label.

However, diving Hogarthian implies a set of techniques too: gas shutdown, how to deploy long hoses, using a canister light, etc., which is necessary given the gear configuration. This setup alone is a substantial difference and sets apart modern technical training from the past and from recreational configurations.

I had the pleasure of talking to Bill Main and Greg Flanagan, both of which have ideas that, if made more public, further shows that Hogarthian style, at least defined by Bill Main himself and with inspiration by Greg Flanagan and others, is evolving and has more to add to help streamline gear further. Its yet a radical departure from the hose configuration DIR uses, but cleaner and simpler still.

I'll leave that discussion for another day and thread.



Thanks all!

[Greg Barlow]

I found your explanation to be excellent. I am concerned that so many divers want to "claim" to be a DIR diver, while they are at best Hogarthian. I have had the pleasure of diving with DIR divers, and have learned a great deal from them. Even with this, I am a Hogarthian diver.

I use the long hose primary with a necklace backup reg on all of my dives whether they be on a single AL80 or on high capacity doubles. It simply is a safety issue that gear be configured in a standardized approach.

Now for the bad news......I often dive solo. There, I admitted to it. Living in Ohio leaves me to one option for my typical dives, that being limestone quarries. They certainly aren't the Florida springs, let alone the balmy tropics, but they are nearby the homestead. It is tough sometimes to get the dive buddies out for a day of diving when one has to schedule around family and work. My reason for mentioning the solo diving is because that is how I originally starting using the Hogarthian approach. I, with my limited faculties, realized that solo diving had certain risks. The risks can be greatly minimized by using the Hogarthian approach to gear configuration. I started the route by using the pony bottle setup, and quickly realized that method's limitations.

By the way, the DIR divers that I know obviously don't encourage the solo diving.

[CincyBengalsFan]

We found 1 extra hazard at the local rock quarry that caters to divers. Some idiot placed loosely nylon string (like a net string) between two platforms. Unfortunetly one of the divers got entagled in it while she/he was solo diving.

I was on the surface snorkeling having a good ole time when he/she hit the surface...Without Scuba on...He/She was just fine but it's a reminder that know where is safe. Buddies are nice to have. All though I'm super guilty of solo diving too..I absolutely love it.

We put our gear on and cut that thin nearly clear white slacked nylon and got his/her rig back.

When solo diving does it really matter what other people think of you? If they are judgemental...I simply wouldn't hang out with or be near them. The extra items you should take when solo'ing is definetly a few extra cutting devices and a pony or spare air.