Best bp/wing for double hose

[EHowe]

Newbie diver having a phenox built by vintage double hose. Looking for a modern BCD setup that will accomidate a double hose reg. The Zeagle Express Tech has been recommended. I like the Idea of customizing a set up like a backplate and wing to suite me. Anyone have any experiance with this type of set up?

[Airleron]

Most bp/w don't work (know by experience), however, a few guys on here have customized the ET for twin hosers. I have a Freedom plate, which works beautifully.

Lisa

[EHowe]

Can you tell me more about the freedom plate? Do you use any type of BC or wing withthat?

[ZKY]

The Freedom Plate is not currently being produced due to high production costs and low demand.

[EHowe]

Bummer. Any other ideas for DH reg B/C?

[Airleron]

The Freedom Plate is not currently being produced due to high production costs and low demand.


I hate to hear that Eric. :(

[simonbeans]

Newbie diver having a phenox built by vintage double hose. Looking for a modern BCD setup that will accomidate a double hose reg. The Zeagle Express Tech has been recommended. I like the Idea of customizing a set up like a backplate and wing to suite me. Anyone have any experiance with this type of set up?
I suppose you ask this question enough times on many websites you might get the answer you want to hear. Listen to those who have been there, done that. BCs and DH regs are difficult to get to operate together. So far many of us have found the Zeagle Express best. Contact Chris@rapiddiver.com to assist you in the mods that Herman and Luis have concluded that work well. I have a modified one and it works ok.

[Akimbo]

Are you supplying the inflator hose from the Hookah port on your double hose or do you also need supply side adapters? As far as a back plate, you can go really old school and just hose clamp your harness to the cylinder. But really old school would be no BC except maybe for a horse collar Mae West or Fenzy. You can still get the 1970s era blow molded back packs if you want a few more modern conveniences. Bummer about Freedom Plate production; it is far better than everything else I have seen.

102758

If you wear the cylinder on the low side you can get away with a wing that has the elbow mounted more to the front-left rather than center-back. You probably want to avoid the bulkier pull-dump. The OxyCheq Mach V (http://oxycheq.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_10_20&products_id=140) wouldn’t be bad, but I am sure there are many others.

[captain]

This is my home made aluminum backplate that is cut to fit the double hose lower than a regular backplate. It can be used with or without a wing on both singles and doubles.
I use an 18 pound wing on a single 72 and a 45 pound wing on double 72's.

[ZKY]

Post removed

[DaleC]

I've posted it before but here's my plywood backplate (which rocks btw) proving that there is really nothing very special about a BP, it just has to position the tank correctly.

102769

For the most part I use a plastic BP drilled for two bands. I could put a wing on if I want but I use a horsecollar when a BC is desired.

102770

[herman]

Are you supplying the inflator hose from the Hookah port on your double hose or do you also need supply side adapters? As far as a back plate, you can go really old school and just hose clamp your harness to the cylinder. But really old school would be no BC except maybe for a horse collar Mae West or Fenzy. You can still get the 1970s era blow molded back packs if you want a few more modern conveniences. Bummer about Freedom Plate production; it is far better than everything else I have seen.

102758

If you wear the cylinder on the low side you can get away with a wing that has the elbow mounted more to the front-left rather than center-back. You probably want to avoid the bulkier pull-dump. The OxyCheq Mach V (http://oxycheq.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_10_20&products_id=140) wouldn’t be bad, but I am sure there are many others.

Those are better but have some issues that make the less than ideal. The thickness raises the tank/reg off your back by an inch or so. That does not sound like much but when you realize that regs are rated in "inches of water" as a performance measure and that 1 inch is pretty good but 2 inches is a poorly performing regulator, you can see adding an extra inch is a big deal. A couple of them that I have will not let the tank be installed as low as is needed, a crotch strap is really needed in any case.

EHowe, not to be rude but bottom line is a DH will not work well with a modern BC -period. The best modern option is the modified ET and the best option of all is either one of Allans harnesses or a thin, single layer BP from the day. These were designed to be used with the DH reg, modern alternative simply will not work well. You have some of the best DH divers I know answering you, take their advise.

[captain]

Most BCs and backplates have the tank band too high to be able to get the tank and regulator low enough without being so close to the top of the tank that it is just barley on the straight sides of the tank. I like the tank low, I don't want to have the regulator hitting me in the back of the head every time I tilt my head back. I am not concerned about being able to reach the valve, if I would need to I just slip out of the rig.

[EHowe]

Sorry if I sound like a pain in the A##, Just trying to get this figured out. It dosent seem that hard. . A pack or harness that holds the tank on my back, with the reg in the correct position. With an inflatable wing attached to it for safety. I know many of you have been doing this for a long time. But I havent. I would like to get there someday. Until I do, I want to be able to float if I need to. That Being said I think I will be going with the Express tech.

[DaleC]

It's not a pita question.
Lots of people want to have a BC of some sort and this becomes even more relevant when diving in cold water where modern thick wetsuits compress to lose bouyancy or where currents may sweep one out to sea. The two points with any system is that they be low on your back (between the shoulder blades if possible) and that the reg be close to your back (preferably right up against it). If you can make a BCD do that you're in. Here's a shot of me when I was in the process of making my plywood backplate and trying to find that sweet spot. I went on to drop the tank another couple of inches and add a bottom cam band for security but you get the idea.

102843

As I stated earlier, I use a horsecollar BCD, which you can still buy new if you want (with a power inflator). You can also marry a small wing to most older backplates if the holes line up and/or the slots for cam bands line up.

For about ten bucks and some hunting you can buy a plastic 60's/70's era back plate (like my second photo) and experiment. Much of vintage diving, both historically and now, involved(s) this hands on sort of approach. Or copy someone elses idea like the E.T.

I say take your time. Nothing sours one more than spending hundreds of dollars on solutions that you may not like/need down the road.

The problem with the modern BP's is they have a raised ridge down the center so the wing nuts don't dig in your back. That ridge lifts a single tank up off your back too much for a doublehose reg. Notice that Captains does not have that central ridge.

The problem with many jacket BCD's is that part of the bladder is around the back and inflating it will push the tank away from you. It's also hard to tighten a jacket BCD without restricting the bouyancy capacity. This is where a rear inflate like the Zeagle will be of benefit.


Anyways, ask away. That is how you will come to understand the why and not just the what.

Also remember that everything should be taken in context. I just did some dives in warmish water and used only a 3/2 wetsuit and about 3lb's of lead. No BC, simple plastic baclplate. In winter I will dive a drysuit with 26lb's of lead and probably a BC (if diving an unknown bottom site). My advice regarding gear selection/preferences would vary depending. If someone says "I dive this or that" ask about the environment, other gear and their experience level etc...

Vintage diving should be fun, not expensive and painful.

[EHowe]

Thanks For all the advice. ET on order from Zeagle express with a 2" crotch strap. I"ll repost after I see how it works

[Akimbo]

… The two points with any system is that they be low on your back (between the shoulder blades if possible) and that the reg be close to your back (preferably right up against it). If you can make a BCD do that you're in. ...

Your comments reminded me of something that might be useful. I haven’t used a wing on a double hose since the 1980s. I was wondering why I didn’t find it especially onerous while others deem it nearly un-divable. It was probably the wing.

It was among the first wings produced by Watergill and was extricated from their AtPack, a bulbous fiberglass cowling system. The thing that made it unique was an elastic fabric covering of the bladder. That would have acted to constrict bladder expansion between the body and double hose regulator can, especially when additional resistance was met.

One thing that might work is to find a wing with a minimal volume behind the neck and the inflator is off to one side. Then wrap the upper part of the wing that would interfere with the can so it can’t expand much, but still allow gas to move side-to-side. You might have to punch a few holes in the center fabric of the wing, but shouldn’t be difficult. Attached is an image of the backplate and AdPack wing.

I don’t think the blow molded back in the image is available now, but you could accomplish the same thing by hack sawing off the molded handle on one of the new models. I suspect the handle would be in the way.

[herman]

Thanks For all the advice. ET on order from Zeagle express with a 2" crotch strap. I"ll repost after I see how it works

Go ahead and get you some weight belt keepers like the ones in the VDH photo. You must stop the straps from moving tighter in the shoulder section. The keepers go on the shoulder side of the waist band guides- this is mod 1 of 2 for the ET. What happens if you don't use them is the waist strap gets loose while you dive- reason is the BP has worked up some so you tighten the waist band- BP moves up more and the process continues until the BP is even with your shoulders- where you would wear it with a single hose reg but way too high for a DH reg. A crotch strap helps but it is does not do the complete job. It may work OK for you as is but for me I also had to have an extra set of waist strap guides added - mod 2 of 2, otherwise the waist band ends up several inches too low.

Once you get the reg and BC you also need to learn how a DH reg responds to body position (this is in the same vain as to why a modern BC does not work well). Unlike a single hose reg, the breathing resistance of a DH reg WILL vary depending on body position. This is something you must understand, accept and be ready for. Its not difficult but it's different enough that it will make an inexperienced DH diver question the reg. With a properly tuned DH reg, breathing resistance will vary from a significant freeflow to being a little more difficult to breath from. In a "normal" diving position, the reg with breath about like a modern reg. Go feet up, head down and the resistance will increase some . Roll on to one side or the other or go head up and it will breath a lot easier to a gentle freeflow. Go head up and on your back it will freeflow. At the surface, lean back on the reg and it will violently freeflow. These are NOT problems with the reg but just the way it functions. You need to be ready for this to happen and expect it. It takes a little time to get the feel of the reg but once you do, it becomes natural.
Might as well discuss breathing off a DH reg too. Short choppy breaths work OK on a single hose reg but are not appropriate for a DH reg, there is a lot of air space you have to get moving in those hoses. Long slow inhales followed by equally long and slow exhales are the ticket, yoga breathing if you will. These do nicely with a single hose reg so you can adapt this one breathing cadence.

[Paladin]

For my double 72s, I'm using an old Dive Rite plastic BP with a Dive Rite Classic wing. The "V" of the backplate nestles perfectly into the space between the tanks and the tanks settle against my back virtually as snug as with a harness. The bands are positioned to place the tanks as low as possible and the straps are adjusted to place my PRAM in the correct position on my back. A crotch strap keeps the rig from riding up. So far, it has been working for me. That said, I don't think a BP/W would work as well for a single tank. For that, I use the same plastic back pack (with a crotch strap) that I've used since about 1970 and a horse collar BC. But, like the others have said, in most situations an old-fashioned harness and horse collar work best.

[-hh]

As I stated earlier, I use a horsecollar BCD, which you can still buy new if you want (with a power inflator)...

New Horsecollars?

I haven't seen any of those since my catalog from MAR-VEL Underwater Equipment stopped years ago.

Have the source handy?



-hh

[GillScales]

Try. Aquatecusa.com. For horsecollars

[Nemrod]

I usually use an Oxy 18 or 30 pound Mach V wing with the Oxy fabric plate. It works wonderfully with a double hose or a single hose. It is by far the best, most compact and rugged wing system on the market. And, to reiterate, yes, it is perfect with a Phoenix:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/Keys%202011/IMG_1353_edited-1.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/vdh%20repair/DSCF0171.jpg

And with no modification swaps right into a single hose rig:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/JRWJR/Keys%202011/IMG_1139_edited-2.jpg

I currently have Dive Rite weight pockets on my Oxy rig to eliminate the weight belt. It takes about five minutes to remove them if I wanted to use a weight belt instead of the weight integration pockets.
N

[DA Aquamaster]

+1 on both the freedom plate and the Oxychec travel plate.

I used the travel plate with my PRAM before getting an aluminum Freedom plate and both work well.

Smaller 18-30 pound wings work well with a single tank as do a few of the crossover wings like the DR Rec wing or the 40 pound Deep Outdoors wing.

[knowone]

Modern masks, current wings and plates, bcd's?????

RIDICULOUS

Completely ANALICAN

[elmer fudd]

I was advised to buy a Freedom Plate back when I got into DH diving and I chose not to. Really wish I'd done so now.

Having said that however, I've dove DH regs with a variety of harnesses and BC's now and I've found a few things that work. The number one problem with modern BC's and BPW's is that they use two cam bands and the top one is too high to allow for proper tank mounting with a DH. My BPW is my best modern rig, yet my worst for diving with a double hose. If I combine that with an 8" tank it makes for an almost unbreathable double hose experience. The tank ends up too high and the reg sits way too far off my back. A modern backplate with a STA sets your tank about 3/4" away from your back to start with, then the E-8 tank adds another 1/2". My best DH setup is an old set of Sportsways doubles with the original plate and harness. Those things couldn't sit any closer to my back and they're secure and comfortable to boot. With the manifold set up with the outlet facing down you can wear the tanks higher while still keeping the regulator low.

I've also got an old plastic backplate from the 60's. It's got a psychedelic swirled pattern and looks like something Jerry Garcia would have used. That thing is also great. It very much resembles ZKY's freedom plate except it is made of plastic and sets the tank about 1" away from my lower back. This is good for clearing a weight belt. At the topside though it sits flush with my shoulder blades.

I've got one of those old hollow plastic plates as well. They're very easy to find, (just take apart most old BC's), and they work pretty well with DH regs. They do add a little more distance between your back and the reg though. Not a lot, so it's not a major problem, but there are better plates out there. Still, you may have one floating around and not even realize it, and they do work reasonably well. You can also fill them up with lead shot to add weight to them.

As I mentioned earlier, tanks make a difference. LP72's were 6.9" in diameter, modern tanks are 7.25" or 8". That sets the reg further from your back, especially with the 8" tank. Also, the LP tanks breathe better with the unbalanced DH regs. 3500 psi air and olld unbalanced regs just don't mix that well. That shouldn't be an issue with your Phoenix, but you'll find that DH regs are like potato chips and you can't have just one. Of course, you can always let some air out.

[elmer fudd]

One other thing I like are Hog style harnesses. I'm not a DIR diver myself, but I think this is one thing that they got right and that also really lends itself to vintage diving. They're cheap, simple and rugged and most of the old backplates are completely compatable with them.

[Nemrod]

Having said that however, I've dove DH regs with a variety of harnesses and BC's now and I've found a few things that work. The number one problem with modern BC's and BPW's is that they use two cam bands and the top one is too high to allow for proper tank mounting with a DH.
As I mentioned earlier, tanks make a difference.

No, not with either the Freedom Plate or the Oxy fabric plate that I like, both allow the tank to be set as low as needed despite using two cam bands. There is also what is known as the "Nemrod Mod" where a Dive Rite STA is cut with additional slots and shortened. I have posted it many times overt the last decade and it allows the tank to sit low enough to be acceptable.


LP72's were 6.9" in diameter, modern tanks are 7.25" or 8". That sets the reg further from your back, especially with the 8" tank. Also, the LP tanks breathe better with the unbalanced DH regs. 3500 psi air and olld unbalanced regs just don't mix that well. That shouldn't be an issue with your Phoenix, but you'll find that DH regs are like potato chips and you can't have just one. Of course, you can always let some air out.

Not exactly, since the Phoenix is actually longer through the body than an unmodified Aqua Lung the additional girth of the aluminum 80 is as I see it an advantage in that it restores the position of the regulator bottom can to riding against/on your back, not gouging into it.

Another general point, me being a rebel and not much buying into either current Padi tripe or vintage urban legend, I am just not into the dragging the tank behind me ape rigged style. It is not needed and accomplishes nothing good if I have and maintain a good horizontal position in the water while swimming. Now, if I were to swim feet down and head up as do many divers with poor trim/over weighted or as often necessitated by being over weighted in a horsecollar, then, yes, wearing the tank what I call "ape rigged" might be helpful to breathing. I prefer to trim for and maintain as close to a horizontal position in the water as possible, even slightly head down. This allows me to effectively use a frog kick or modified scissor and keeps my feet and wake up away from the reef and my camera close to the subjects on the reef.

N