Surface flotation for DIR harness idea

[SparkySFD]

Okay I had an idea today. Rip it apart and tell me if wont work.

Here's my situation. I'm a Fireman and a member of the Water Rescue Team. The problem with most BC's is they tend to float you face down on the surface. Most training agencies advocate jacket style BC's. Now before you DIR types start ripping into me, Ive heard it before, and I dont buy it.

In my situation I dont have just myself to worry about. Swimming by yourself is one thing. But try swimming on the surface carrying a (hopefully) live body. Unfortunatly most of the time its a body recovery. Lucky for me I am inland and sea state is usually not a problem. But there are plenty of guys out there like me that do have the added worry.

While a DIR BP&wing setup is super underwater they suck for me on the surface (which is where most public safety divers drown). The BP&wing has added benefits for us. We firmen are legendary for our ability to break stuff. Backplates are pretty tough and if one component gets broken we can replace them without having to buy an entirely new BC. Makes it easier on the Chief and the taxpayer.

Here's my idea: Could a guy make a flotation device for the front of a diver wearing a DIR rig? What I invision is a bladder secured to the belt and possibly running up the shoulder straps to the d-rings. Would be bolt-snapped on so its easy to remove. Would have to utilize sometype of bungie (I know its a sin) to keep it all in and tight while not being used. A hose for a power inflator and would have to have a dump valve.

This would only be used for surface flotation. This is why I think the bungie thing is not a huge sin. It would be fairly tight to the body and I think not so bulky if done right.

What I dont know is how much buoyancy you would need. You would of course use the wing for most of the lift. But how much do you need to counteract and ensure a face up position. Cant be to big because you still have to be able to swim and perform work on the surface.

This wouldnt be for everyone. But I think it could solve a problem for some people. Tell me what you guys think.

Thanks

[RichLockyer]

Pick up a snorkelling vest.
You really don't need much lift at all.

The BP/W doesn't float ME face down, unless I fill the wing fully. Completely inflated, like you might inflate a jacket BC (because you were taught that way), ya... it's a life raft with you on the bottom UNLESS you are swimming on your back.
If the wing NEEDS to be fully inflated to ensure surface flotation, then, especially with a nearly empty tank, you are overweighted.

THAT SAID...

As a PSD, your situation is a bit unique. You will intentionally slightly overweight to ensure that there is no problem staying down in any conditions, and of cource, you are involved in ferrying another person who could be in any of several states of awareness, but normally unable to assist you in any way.

First thing I would do, both for your safety and the safety of the victim, is establish independent flotation for them. This takes the burden of keeping them afloat off of you, reducing your personal lift requirements, and also helps ensure their survival if you end up letting go (thinking swift water situation). A hypothermic floating victim is in better shape than a hypothermic swimming victim.

Anyways... the snorkelling vest might do the trick without being a major kludge. It is pretty small, sits flat (negates the need for bungees), and is orally inflated (no need for another hose).

[mddolson]

I agree with RichLockyer :"The BP/W doesn't float ME face down, unless I fill the wing fully."

I use a 50 lb wing with a single (80) aluminum tank, and 80 lb wing with twin (98s))steel tanks. Some will criticise these as over kill.

I am a big guy, 6 ft 250 lb.
While smaller wings are adequate for general diving needs, as an Instructor there are times when I need to be able to physically take control of a panicky student. On the surface I may need to be quite bouyant and verticle . The larger wings, partially filled do this nicely.

regards

Mike D

[BOATS313]

I agree with the getting the victim his own floatation, but understand the difculty of doing that. You could try what we call a "May West". It is a inflatable life jacket simmilar to a snorkling vest. They come on a waist belt in a small pouch. When needed you just pull it out of the pouch and over your head. They are self inflating with a co2 cylinder or can be oraly inflated.

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/catalog/SingleProduct.asp?ProductID=226

This is simmilar without the pouch. It may even be a better option. It is made for diving and has been used for years.
http://www.mustangsurvival.com/catalog/SingleProduct.asp?ProductID=229&ColorID=5

Something like this may work too, just make sure it doesn't self inflate.
http://www.mustangsurvival.com/catalog/SingleProduct.asp?ProductID=222

I'm not sure of how you could rig these to not interfere with your BCD or vice versa but there should be a way.

[RichLockyer]

mddolson once bubbled...
take control of a panicky student. On the surface I may need to be quite bouyant and verticle . The larger wings, partially filled do this nicely.
Excellent point... not something I considered. What makes the larger wings difficult to trim and handle under water (lot's of room for the bubble to move around) would be a big help for surface flotation.

With no bungees... since they would tend to force the bubble back down, though I don't think the bungees could really fight the hydrostatic compression.

[buff]

I have a Dive Rite Rec wing, Fred T. backplate with STA.

At the surface, with my Rec wing fully inflated, my chin is about a foot out of the water!! and I am perfectly vertical-NO forward push.

Underwater I'm horizontal.

[RichLockyer]

I've got a RecWing over on Ebay right now... auction closes Sunday (tomorrow) around 2pm.

[Waterborne]

Sparky, where on your rig, do you put your weight? Also how much weight do you use/need? I have found that for rescue applications, my SS plate and SS STA work great with my Pioneer 27 even on smaller tanks. When I used an AL plate with a lightweight STA, I found that I would tend to be pushed forward while on the surface. Now with a six pound SS plate and a heavier STA, the weight is on my back and counteracts the forward pushing effect. Even on my lowest profile setup which consists of a my SS plate setup and a 30 or 40 cft cylinder, I do not get the forward push from a fully inflated wing. Most of the time, I do not need to fully inflate my wing even with full tanks I did the testing on it with a fully inflated wing in the event that I may need it.

[mddolson]

Both of my wings are Dive-rite wings.
I have a Rec-wing and 80 lb Double Wing

I didn't choose the double wing by need, it was the size I wanted, just got it at a good price

Mike D

[Cave Diver]

I agree with Rich.

[docmartin]

in warm water i only use a steel bp and don't experience any pushover. in cold water i use additional tank weights and never go face down either.

[SparkySFD]

Sparky, where on your rig, do you put your weight?


SCORE ResQ

I wear my weight on a belt. I also keep weight in the trim pockets of my BC. I would like to switch to a BP/wing if I can figure a way to ensure surface flotation.

If it was just me Im confident it would be a great setup and plan on buying one for personal use. But would be nice to work in as well. My situation and needs are a little unique.

I did think about a horse collar. But thats a lot of crap around the shoulder straps. Would worry about getting to the wing inflator. Guess it could be bungeed over the collar. Would really like to find something or make one that fit just over the belly area.

[ScubaToneDog]

Why dont you take a page from the old school. Use your backplate with a horse collar BC for search and rescue work, and still keep your wings in the truck for search and recovery. Two separate missions requiring two separate rigs.

I believe the horse collars are still made by Scuba Pro for military and Public Safety Organizations as well as the general public. They have the back up CO2 and oral inflation in addition to the LP hook up. They can be used independently and serve double duty as a life jacket if you end up on support stand-by or as an in water tender. Another advantage to a horse collar BC is they allow the use of a lifting harnesses for use with helecopter operations as well. Very multi functional and definatly worth looking into.

Of course this is just my humble opinion based on the DIR concept of Function and Simplicity while allowing for Multi mission adaptation and is in no way a professional answer to your question.

[SparkySFD]

ScubaToneDog

Thought about it already. The reason I dont is I think relying on the horse collar for buoyancy control would be like riding a bubble. I believe thats why the old guys quit using them.

You are right they still make them. The military does buy them. Im ex-Navy myself (Submariner, best-of-the-best you know). The military considers them to be "Life Preservers". Thats the catagory they fall in on the Navy ANU list. They do not believe even a jacket style BC to float you face up on the surface.

I may give in on my idea. May just go with a military style HC over my BP/wing setup. Will have an excellent underwater platform and on the surface I can inflate the HC for rock solid surface flotation.

[ScubaToneDog]

I dont think they gave them up for that reason. It was more for the simplicity of only having to don 1 piece of gear.

Ive talked to a couple of people who dive them and they swear by them. One of them is a big Bug hunter. He likes it because he can change out his tank by simply having another tank pack and reg set ready to go.

It all comes down to pratical in water useage to evaluate the best possible configuration, in your case especially for rescue work.

Like I said...just an opinion...theres a million of them out there. Take them all throw em up on the wall and see what sticks.

When you do get a solution together please post your findings. Im very intrigued with this.

[SparkySFD]

Sure I'll post what happens. Although I would think it would be a long process. Dive-evaluate-Dive-evaluate. I have started to talk with a few PSD instructors about it. I'm taking a really great course next year. Hopefully in the spring. Will talk to them about it then.

[Dive_Girl PNW]

Out of curiosity, everyone who posted on this thread that said their BP/wing setups didn't push them forward (unless fully inflated), is this because you are conscious and in addition to proper weight placement, you are easily able to maintain an upright position? So, what if you relaxed completely, like an unconscious person? Where would your BP/wing place you? I ask, because when I recently taught a rescue class (I wear a vest style BCD when teaching, but prefer the BP/wing setup for recreational diving), some of my students had BP/wing setups and they kept rolling face down during rescue scenarios and so there was much struggling to right them just to get their units off. Any suggestions/tips on how to handle this that I can share with future classes?

[buff]

I think it has more to do with with the mechanics of the BP/wing setup.

Again, I have the Dive Rite rec wing, Fred T. heavy BP and heavy STA.

I think the heavy STA and backplate off set the forward push of the wing-if the wing has any. I also feel that the rec wing design is superior for surface flotation-perhaps its not as thick as the other wings and is longer relative to its thickness. It's the only reason I can account for it's trim characteristics. I am perfectly vertical in the water-no forward push. Even at peak wing inflation, my chin is about a foot out of the water and there is no face down push.

I really didn't have to do anything to stay in perfect position-at the surface(vertical) or U/W(horizontal)-the first time I used this wing. There was no "learning curve". I just went scuba diving.

[divermasterB]

Yes, a couple of things.

1) Make sure they ditch the weight.

2) Teach them that they don't have to fully inflate the BC.

If the weight belt is ditched you don't have to worry about an overweighted diver.

If they have non-ditchable weight in the form of a p or v weight, they will actually help to keep the diver face up.

Also, for many rescue students, they tend to add air until the BC is full. This is really not necessary, and can make getting rescue breaths into them more difficult (either floating them to high, or restricting the airway). Try to emphasize that they want to get the victim to the surface safely, ditch any weight and inflate the BC to get them positive on the surface.

Once they have gotten the rescue breathing started, they are going to want to start removing equipment to get them out of the water. This is another point where an overinflated BC can be a pain.



Dive_Girl PNW once bubbled...
Out of curiosity, everyone who posted on this thread that said their BP/wing setups didn't push them forward (unless fully inflated), is this because you are conscious and in addition to proper weight placement, you are easily able to maintain an upright position? So, what if you relaxed completely, like an unconscious person? Where would your BP/wing place you? I ask, because when I recently taught a rescue class (I wear a vest style BCD when teaching, but prefer the BP/wing setup for recreational diving), some of my students had BP/wing setups and they kept rolling face down during rescue scenarios and so there was much struggling to right them just to get their units off. Any suggestions/tips on how to handle this that I can share with future classes?

[ScubaToneDog]

If you are perfectly weighted to be verticle on the surface try this. Totally relax and just drop your head forward.

Do you remain verticle? Does your face even make it into the water? I betcha it did.

If you use back inflation no matter how you are weighted if you go unconsious you will end up face down unless someone turns you over. Standard BC Jackets preform the same way....face down. The bouyancy cells, unless positioned on the upper front of the chest, will not keep a persons face out of the water in an unconsious state. You cant argue with physics.

The Topic at hand deals with rescue work. I dont mean to discredit anyone here but we're talking real rescue work. Not any of the Rescue Diver Courses from the various agencies. Thats like comparing a First Aid and CPR course to EMT training...BIG-BIG DIFFERENCE.

[SparkySFD]

ScubaToneDog

I cant agree with you more. Ive heard all sorts of guys claiming thier wings dont float them or push them face down. You couldnt be more right in your explanation. The military doesnt buy it either. They have two catagories on thier purchasing lists: Bouyancy Compensators and Life Preservers.

A BC is just that, a BC. Its not a life preserver and I guess thats what I'm looking for.

Your last point about Rescue Diver courses was right on the money. I have taken SSI's Stress & Rescue course. I dont think it would even qualify as an "Awareness" level of training in the Public Safety area. Not that it was bad or even taught bad ideas. Just not at the level a professional needs.

[ScubaToneDog]

I understand what goes into rescue training. I was in the Coast Guard for 5 years. 3 of those years were at a Rescue Station. We trained constantly. New proceedures equiptment and policies were coming out on almost a monthly basis. I can only imagine the constant change and training that goes on in your field...

Kudo's to you my friend...

[SparkySFD]

Thanks

You would actually be suprised. In the end Rescue work doesnt change that much. Oh sure new technoligies come along. Car makers come up with things like airbags in cars that give us trouble, but Im glad they are there.

But most of it is agencies changing the wording in training manuals just to sell you a new book every couple of years. Leadership is the same as its always been. They just add a couple of new terms to describe the same thing......woala!.....new edition.

Really admire the work the Coast Guard does. Kinda wish I'd gone that way instead of the Navy.

Cant resist telling my height requirement joke to a Coastie though. hehehe

[ScubaToneDog]

Yeah I've heard them all.

Funny thing is...every Navy guy who stepped foot on the Bouy Tender I was on up in Alaska puked their guts out from sea sickness...unless they were using the patch....:out:

At the Rescue Station we had updates to all areas, Law Enforcement, SAR, General Maintence, Preventive Maintenence, Safety, ect...so we never stopped training. When someones life or property is at stake you have to react, not act.

It was a great experience and I would'nt trade those times for anything.