Training fatality claims Utah woman in Florida

[DandyDon]

From http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52687801-78/ballard-according-daily-news.html.csp

A North Salt Lake woman died Saturday while scuba diving off the coast of Palm Beach, Fla.

Julie Lynne Cannon Ballard, 56, was on a dive to get her certification as a scuba diver when something went wrong about 60 feet under the ocean, the Palm Beach Daily News reported Thursday.

Ballard, her dive instructor and the owner/operator of the commercial boat, dove to the ocean floor about 2 p.m. Saturday, according to the Daily News.

Everything was going well until one of the people in the group said she noticed Ballard’s regulator was out of her mouth, the newspaper reported.

First aid efforts followed once Ballard was brought up to the boat. She was pronounced dead at St. Mary’s Medical Center, according to the Daily News.

Authorities were quoted as saying foul play was not suspected.

Ballard worked in the area of newborn and pediatric respiratory care for more than 30 years, according to an obituary published by Memorial Mortuaries and Cemeteries.

"She has been recognized for her work in changing the way respiratory therapists care for patients with bronchiolitis," the obituary states. "Her outcomes have been reported nationally and have been embraced by respiratory therapists around the world."

Family members said Ballard passed away peacefully while doing something she loved, according to the obituary.

[JonKranhouse]

A few more details per another news report from Palm Beach Daily News (http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/utah-scuba-diver-dies-off-palm-beach-coast-1899793.html?printArticle=y) (emphasis added)...

Utah scuba diver dies off Palm Beach coast

By WILLIAM KELLY (http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/services/william-kelly-contact-information-articles-and-rss-feed-363436.html)DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
Updated: 4:53 p.m. Thursday, Oct. 6, 2011
Posted: 4:23 p.m. Thursday, Oct. 6, 2011

Julie Ballard was about to obtain her certification as a scuba diver Saturday afternoon in the waters a mile off the coast of Palm Beach.

But something went wrong about 60 feet down on the ocean floor. Not long afterward, the 56-year-old Utah woman was pronounced dead at St. Mary’s Medical Center.

Ballard and her dive instructor went out on Sandy’s Sunday Dive Boat, a commercial dive vessel and down to the ocean floor with Sandra Brammeier, the boat’s owner/operator, around 2 p.m.

According to Palm Beach police, Ballard gave a hand signal that everything was all right, and the group began to make their way along the bottom. But Brammeier later told police she looked back within a minute and saw that Ballard’s regulator was out of her mouth “and something had apparently gone wrong quick.”

They got Ballard onto the boat, and contacted authorities for help. The Palm Beach Police Marine Unit assisted the Palm Beach County Sheriff’s Office in administering CPR on Ballard. The U.S. Coast Guard also assisted and brought two Palm Beach County paramedics on board.

There was no foul play, said Sheriff’s Office spokeswoman Teri Barbera.

“We don’t know what happened, other than what the witnesses tell us,” she said.

The Palm Beach County Medical Examiner’s Office said it had not determined a cause of death.

The dive boat did not have a defibrillator on board, according to the police report.

Brammeier, owner of Ocean Quest Scuba Charters, could not immediately be reached for comment on Thursday.

[Thalassamania]

I doubt that the absence of a defibrillator made much difference. What I fail to understand is how there can be a fatality, especially a TRAINING fatality without anyone seeing what happened.

[Blue Sparkle]

Going by the articles, they were at 60' on an OW certification dive. Although I know 60' is the maximum depth recommended once you are certified, I still noticed that. Maybe it's common in places where diving just is that deep (where I trained there were shallower dive sites that we used).

Also I wonder about how the boat's owner/operator was on the dive with them. It may be no big deal (other staff stayed onboard/it was mis-written, or etc.), but again just something I noted while reading.

[SandyBramm]

Julie Ballard was a very nice woman that has done alot in her profession for others, and has left behind a large family that I am sure will miss her dearly. My crew and I sent out our sympathy to her family and friends for their loss, as well to the instructor that had become close to her. Mrs Ballard was conducting her final dives onboard our boat on Saturday, she came to us with her instructor from the Orlando area. Mrs Ballard had a non-dive related medical emergency that unfortunately did claim her life. Mrs Ballard was on the bottom for less than five minutes at a depth of 56 ft and until her emergency she was enjoying a Hawksbill Turtle. All efforts were made to save her life, and I thank the USCG, Sheriff Dept, Palm Beach Police and Towboat US for responding so quickly to our location. In addition to EMS responders the dive boats Sirena (Pura Vida Divers), Deep Obsession (JASA), and Narcosis for assisting us by keeping a eye on our remaining divers, and bringing them back in to our dock.

CPR was started immediately, and a defibrillator was utilized within minutes, but when the machine was attached and we were ready to shock, the machine advised. "no shock". A total of nine EMS medics boarded our boat and worked on Mrs Ballard until we arrived at the marina. It was later relayed to us, that Mrs Ballard had most likely suffered a Anurisium and that had died instantly. Her husband remained by her side the entire time and was very strong and brave. Mrs Ballard was holding her instructors hand at the time the event accurred, and she never seemed scared or showed any signs of panic, she simply went limp.

I decided to cancel our trips for Sunday due to the fact that I wanted to give my crew time to process everything they had witnessed and been through. This was the first incident we've had on our boat, and I am very proud of how my crew handled themselves. We were diving on Flower Garden reef, and at some point in the future, the family plans on returning to put flowers out

[Thalassamania]

Thanks for the clear note at such a hard time.

[heavierthanlead]

Going by the articles, they were at 60' on an OW certification dive. Although I know 60' is the maximum depth recommended once you are certified, I still noticed that. Maybe it's common in places where diving just is that deep (where I trained there were shallower dive sites that we used)...

Appears to not have been a direct factor in this incident (if it was indeed an aneurism), but sure makes one wonder about the election to push the envelope in the first 2 days of actual open water exposure. Having completed the training of hundreds of newbs in typically 15-25' of temperate freshwater, I can't imagine ever taking fledgling divers, even under the most ideal of conditions, to 40' (let alone 60'), and asking them to perform ESA or mask removal/replacement skills. Dealing with fullblown panic in the former, is one thing...

Just generalizing, and not calling out any individual instructor or operator.

[Blue Sparkle]

Sandy,

Thanks so much for posting. It's really nice to hear from someone who was there vs. only media accounts. Kudos to you and your crew for being well-trained and on the ball.

Blue Sparkle

[Tom Winters]

A few more details per another news report from Palm Beach Daily News (http://www.palmbeachdailynews.com/news/utah-scuba-diver-dies-off-palm-beach-coast-1899793.html?printArticle=y) The dive boat did not have a defibrillator on board, according to the police report. (emphasis added)...

This is pretty small recreational dive boat going out for a couple of hours with maybe 12 people on it. The defib just seems too onerous to be dealing with on a wet deck with a crew of non-medical professionals. What's the next big push going to be - mandatory EMT training for the crew?


Appears to not have been a direct factor in this incident (if it was indeed an aneurism), but sure makes one wonder about the election to push the envelope in the first 2 days of actual open water exposure. Having completed the training of hundreds of newbs in typically 15-25' of temperate freshwater, I can't imagine ever taking fledgling divers, even under the most ideal of conditions, to 40' (let alone 60'), and asking them to perform ESA or mask removal/replacement skills. Dealing with fullblown panic in the former, is one thing...
Just generalizing, and not calling out any individual instructor or operator.

I guess some people also can't imagine the difference between 15-25' of temperate lake water and 60' of pretty mild clear blue salt water either. I'm just generalizing, and not calling out any individual instructor or operator.

[robertarak]

This is pretty small recreational dive boat going out for a couple of hours with maybe 12 people on it. The defib just seems too onerous to be dealing with on a wet deck with a crew of non-medical professionals. What's the next big push going to be - mandatory EMT training for the crew?


In response to this comment only and NOT commenting on the incident that claimed a woman's life. Any dive boat crew should be professional. That does mean some emergency training, including O2 and defib. There is no dive boat that should be without either. There are many cases where a defibrillator would add no value, just as there are cases where o2 would not help or a fire extinguisher or a life boat. If there is even ONE time that it is needed and not there, it is too many. The fact is that an AED is a safety device that has saved thousands of lives, requires little investment or maintenance, minimal training and should not be considered, "too onerous" to have on every dive boat.

It sounds like the crew, instructor and all involved in this tragedy did all they could, including the use of an AED. Thier efforts should be commended.

[DandyDon]

I wonder how close the Defib proponents would require they be on all park trails. :dontknow:

[Splitlip]

Appears to not have been a direct factor in this incident (if it was indeed an aneurism), but sure makes one wonder about the election to push the envelope in the first 2 days of actual open water exposure. Having completed the training of hundreds of newbs in typically 15-25' of temperate freshwater, I can't imagine ever taking fledgling divers, even under the most ideal of conditions, to 40' (let alone 60'), and asking them to perform ESA or mask removal/replacement skills. Dealing with fullblown panic in the former, is one thing...

Just generalizing, and not calling out any individual instructor or operator.

I can't imagine how many thousands of divers have been certified on Palm Beach 60 ft dives without incident. Most students do their first two open water dives in 12 to 30 ft. Their third and fourth dives are 60 footers.

[Notso_Ken]

Sorry, but I can't imagine NOT taking the students to 60' on day 2 of checkout dives. The instructors I work with all do so. Yes, day 1 is typically no more than 25', but day 2 they are ready to do more. If all they have done is 25' in training, how can you turn them loose to go deeper on their own as a certified diver?


Ken


Appears to not have been a direct factor in this incident (if it was indeed an aneurism), but sure makes one wonder about the election to push the envelope in the first 2 days of actual open water exposure. Having completed the training of hundreds of newbs in typically 15-25' of temperate freshwater, I can't imagine ever taking fledgling divers, even under the most ideal of conditions, to 40' (let alone 60'), and asking them to perform ESA or mask removal/replacement skills. Dealing with fullblown panic in the former, is one thing...

Just generalizing, and not calling out any individual instructor or operator.

[Splitlip]

We have a little dive site here called the Blue Heron Bridge Marine Park. It is just inside the Lake Worth (Palm Beach) inlet and sheltered from all but the worst weather conditions. Depths are from 12 to 22 ft. Instructors will take their students there for the first 2 open water dives, then 3 and 4 (or 5) are live boat dives.

I found it disturbing when I was at the bridge one weekend. There was an out of town instructor on site with his class. The seas were blown out and their boat canceled. The class did open water dives 3 and 4 in 12 ft of water. These dives amounted to descending and playing on the bottom for about 20 minutes then surfacing and chatting for a few minutes. The instructor essentially told the class that they were as prepared as any diver who has done the 60 footers. They then descended again.
I felt bad for the instructor as he and class had traveled here and were staing in a motel for the weekend. I felt worse for the students because in my mind I disagree with the instructor' remark.

[Splitlip]

Sorry, but I can't imagine NOT taking the students to 60' on day 2 of checkout dives. The instructors I work with all do so. Yes, day 1 is typically no more than 25', but day 2 they are ready to do more. If all they have done is 25' in training, how can you turn them loose to go deeper on their own as a certified diver?


Ken

Especially for the vacation divers who show up here. Unless they really discuss things with the dive op's, they will more than likely be dropped in 85 ft of water for the first dive. If they work a little they may find an op that does "easy dives" that parents enjoy for their young kids. Even then, the dives will still be 45 ft to 65 ft. There are couple of 25 to 30 ft sites that Scuba Club uses for their first 2 open water dives, but no op is going to take paying customers there.

[Chuckitall]

So you would prefer to certify them in 25' of water and for there first non instructed dive jump on a boat that usually dives 60 to 80 ft in Jupiter/WPB. I couldn't sleep at night knowing I certified divers that I knew weren't ready to dive. By dives 3 & 4 you need to get them ready for real world dives. I've worked on dive boats where divers are shocked that the normal dives are 60 ft or deeper. Come on guys train them.

[Garth]

Just so everyone is aware of what an AED is because a few of the comments lead me to believe that some may not know...

An AED is an Automated defibrillator that sends an electrical charge through the heart to "shock" it back into a normal rhythm... meaning that if the heart has no electrical activity the AED will not advise a shock. Also if the electrical activity of the heart is normal but the heart is not pumping enough to sustain a pulse it will also not advise a shock. Examples of rhythms needing defibrillation would be ventricular fibrillatrion, and supraventricular tachycardia. I am not exactly familiar with the AED's as my job we use manual defibrillation at varying Joules.

Hope this help. Important to realize that the boat: 1) had a AED 2) used an AED and 3) was unable to utilize the AED because of what was going on cardiac wise.

I'm sure the machine would note if the leads were mal-placed so I wont comment on that.

[Splitlip]

I've had the training. Thanks.

[Bogie]

I'm not sure what you learn at 60 feet that you can't learn at 30-40 feet. Actually diving at 60 feet is easier because of buoyancy stability. In Monterey people get their OW cert in the 20 40 range. Unless you dive from a boat most dives are 30-50 feet. You can dive the trench from shore at Monastery Beach and dive 100's of feet if you want. The deeper you go the darker and colder it gets. Visibility is an issue and the shallow dive is the safer dive if there is a problem and new divers have problems.

With all the extra equipment (full 7mm, hood, gloves, more weight) and the conditions (cold, poor visibility, surge, current,waves, kelp) the multitasking that a new diver faces in Monterey at 30-40 dive is plenty of challenge.

It seems the training and support this new diver received was excellent and it looks like a unpredictable heath related occurrence.

My condolences to the boat crew, instructor, family and friends.

[flots am]

So you would prefer to certify them in 25' of water and for there first non instructed dive jump on a boat that usually dives 60 to 80 ft in Jupiter/WPB. I couldn't sleep at night knowing I certified divers that I knew weren't ready to dive. By dives 3 & 4 you need to get them ready for real world dives. I've worked on dive boats where divers are shocked that the normal dives are 60 ft or deeper. Come on guys train them.

That works both ways. It would be nice if dive ops would look at a logbook that shows 5 dives with a max depth of 25' and say "Sorry, this really isn't the right dive for you, right now."

flots.

[heavierthanlead]

So you would prefer to certify them in 25' of water and for there first non instructed dive jump on a boat that usually dives 60 to 80 ft in Jupiter/WPB. I couldn't sleep at night knowing I certified divers that I knew weren't ready to dive. By dives 3 & 4 you need to get them ready for real world dives. I've worked on dive boats where divers are shocked that the normal dives are 60 ft or deeper. Come on guys train them.


Oh, brother. So a Midwest-trained diver, having dove in doubled-up 7mm wetsuits/hoods & gloves/10%+ of their own body weight in lead, and under more adverse natural conditions than a tropical trained diver, is not "trained", eh? And, we must all be diving/training in a "fantasy" not "real" world? Shall I bring up the occasions I've witnessed of "trained" divers with only tropical experience, attempting to dive in temperate waters, with multiple thermoclines? That training tends to quickly unravel...

The point is, it's all about comfort level. It's not about rushing them to x depth, because that's either "real" diving, or it's "just the way we've always done it". Many may indeed be ready for it, but what of those that aren't? I'm well aware that 60' is permitted within standards, under ideal conditions, on day 2 of open water training. But, so is anything deeper than 15'. So... what's the rush? I train comfortable divers... the depth will come, as their personal comfort level increases with experience. They know enough, that jumping on some boat that dives to...80' is not only beyond what's recommended for their novice status, but is ill-advised. But, people drive over the speed limit too, right?

[Chuckitall]

I meant nothing by mid America training, even hear there seems to be alot of 25 ft training. I work on a boat and alot of them are not even ready for a basic boat dive. I know, you can't take the time to do more dives with these students, but when there other divers on the boat many times we have to dummy down the dives for the beginners. No other choice sometimes, but customers can get upset by this. Don't get me wrong I enjoy helping and working with the new divers, but some act like they have never seen an instructor. BTW, WWW couldn't handle your cold diving, lol.





Oh, brother. So a Midwest-trained diver, having dove in doubled-up 7mm wetsuits/hoods & gloves/10%+ of their own body weight in lead, and under more adverse natural conditions than a tropical trained diver, is not "trained", eh? And, we must all be diving/training in a "fantasy" not "real" world? Shall I bring up the occasions I've witnessed of "trained" divers with only tropical experience, attempting to dive in temperate waters, with multiple thermoclines? That training tends to quickly unravel...

The point is, it's all about comfort level. It's not about rushing them to x depth, because that's either "real" diving, or it's "just the way we've always done it". Many may indeed be ready for it, but what of those that aren't? I'm well aware that 60' is permitted within standards, under ideal conditions, on day 2 of open water training. But, so is anything deeper than 15'. So... what's the rush? I train comfortable divers... the depth will come, as their personal comfort level increases with experience. They know enough, that jumping on some boat that dives to...80' is not only beyond what's recommended for their novice status, but is ill-advised. But, people drive over the speed limit too, right?

[gotair?]

My heart goes out to her family and to the crew. I do have a question for everyone. When I was OW certified, it was my understanding that OW students were not allowed to complete their training from a boat. Am I wrong about this? Is it ok for Instructors to take OW students on a boat before they complete thier course?

Thank you for your time,

[Splitlip]

I got certified in 1973 from a boat in Palm Beach. My daughter was certified in I think '07. From a boat in Palm Beach. If not from a boat, then where? Especially considering the fact that their fifth dive will likely be from a boat. IJS

[Blue Sparkle]

Some places - such as the Florida Keys - there really is no diving that isn't boat diving. Yet people get certified there, so I can't imagine it would be against OW policy.

(Although to respond to "if not from a boat then where?" my initial OW certification was attained via shore dive in a lake.)

[Simon-]

My heart goes out to her family and to the crew. I do have a question for everyone. When I was OW certified, it was my understanding that OW students were not allowed to complete their training from a boat. Am I wrong about this? Is it ok for Instructors to take OW students on a boat before they complete thier course?

Thank you for your time,

Of course it is ok for OW students to be on a boat.

Tell you what, let's certify everyone by only doing shore dives in 6m of water. Send them off to go dive.

Hang on, they get to a boat and don't have a clue how to get on, where to put their equipment, can't set-up their equipment as the boat is not as still as dry land, they are scared of a back-roll entry (or giant stride as we do off dhows), they are scared because they are starting the dive out of their depth.

NDL's is something they have learnt and understood, but as they have only been in 6m of water, they would run out of gas before they ran out of time. They are now at 16m and are so abosorbed by the fact they are deeper, they don't realise their NDL is rapidly approaching.

I always, weather and sea conditions permitting, take students on at least 2 boat dives during their OW course.

[Hatul]

Around here the shallow dives of 20-30 ft are more difficult because of the surge. Also as someone else pointed out buoyancy is easier to maintain on a deeper dive. 40-60 ft is probably the easiest sweet spot here in Cal.

Adam

[vladimir]

In general...

...if it is a bad idea for a student to go to 60' in the company of an instructor on his last day of training, it must certainly be a bad idea to give that student a certification card proclaiming him qualified to dive to 60' independently. That's obvious, isn't it?

Those arguing against 60' certification dives would be on solider ground arguing for more certification dives. Maybe the dive to 60' should be dive number 6, or dive number 8--that would be a tenable argument. Alternatively, maybe the certification card should say "good to 30'" (though a lot of us like to get close to the bottom when we dive).

[cloudswinger]

I'm not sure what you learn at 60 feet that you can't learn at 30-40 feet. Actually diving at 60 feet is easier because of buoyancy stability. In Monterey people get their OW cert in the 20 40 range. Unless you dive from a boat most dives are 30-50 feet. You can dive the trench from shore at Monastery Beach and dive 100's of feet if you want. The deeper you go the darker and colder it gets. Visibility is an issue and the shallow dive is the safer dive if there is a problem and new divers have problems.

With all the extra equipment (full 7mm, hood, gloves, more weight) and the conditions (cold, poor visibility, surge, current,waves, kelp) the multitasking that a new diver faces in Monterey at 30-40 dive is plenty of challenge.

See, people are comparing apples to oranges. The conditions you have would probably warrant training at a shallower depth. Florida conditions are completely different. Visibility doesn't change much between 40 to 60 or even 80 ft. You could lay on the ocean floor at 60 and see the boat up top. I've done a 100ft dive and was still able to see the boat from depth. Surge is usually nonexistent at the deeper depths. This time of year 3mm is fine, sea temp is in the 80s, at depth it'd probably be only a few degrees less. And no Kelp. How much more ideal conditions can you get?

Plus if they are diving in Palm Beach, most of the reefs are at 60, if you were to go to 40 all you'd see is sand, open water or the bottom 20 ft down. The shallower reefs are further south. I'm sure that there are Florida divers that may never have done any dives not from a boat. The only reason that doesn't apply to me is that I trained in N Florida, where we did some dives in the springs. Boat diver certification should be automatic here, just like dry suit diving would be for some other places.

[NWGratefulDiver]

My heart goes out to her family and to the crew. I do have a question for everyone. When I was OW certified, it was my understanding that OW students were not allowed to complete their training from a boat. Am I wrong about this? Is it ok for Instructors to take OW students on a boat before they complete thier course?

Thank you for your time,

There is no restriction against doing OW checkout dives off a boat. Even here in Puget Sound, where shore diving is predominant, some instructors will opt for at least the final day of boat diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[PatW]

The dive sites at West Palm beach all seem to be at a minimum of 55'. If you are coming from Orlando, West Palm and Jupiter are the closest salt water dive locations. These places allow you to drive, dive and drive back in one day. To get to a place with shallower dive spots, you need to go to Pompano Beach.

I did my first 2 dives at Alexander Springs which has a maximum depth of 28'. I was not able to get down that far because the "deep" spot is about the size of a phone booth and it was already full. I did my other 2 dives at West Palm in 60' of water. It was good visibility and little current. We had a 2 instructors in the water and 2 dive masters for about 6 students.

If the medical people are right and the cause of death was a stroke, I doubt that there was much of anything that could have been done by the people present to alter the outcome. When I read the first account, I thought that the problem sounded like a stroke or heart attack. She was not young which put her potentially at risk. Also she went very quickly from being a diver who seemed perfectly "fine" to being unconscous, unresponsive and apparently not breathing. So the problem did not sound like equipment failure, panic, out of air, nitrogen narcosis, bends etc.

It is very unfortunate. But sometimes these things happen and no one is really "at fault".

[c0r3yz]

I did my first 2 dives at Alexander Springs which has a maximum depth of 28'. I was not able to get down that far because the "deep" spot is about the size of a phone booth and it was already full. I did my other 2 dives at West Palm in 60' of water. It was good visibility and little current. We had a 2 instructors in the water and 2 dive masters for about 6 students.

My wife and I did our first two dives a Alexander as well, I got 26' max depth, but that place is always so crowded... Like you said, you can't get to the "deep" spot unless you're there at sun up and before it gets crowded. The remainder of our OW dives were done at Devil's Den. We saw 45' there.

[Moonglow]

There are very real risks in taking anyone to sixty feet on a checkout dive, especially in intial open water certification training-- risks that I would never take as an instructor.

[Thalassamania]

Our policy is a minimum of 12 supervised dives before going below 30 feet, and then 12 supervised dives between 30 and 60 before making unsupervised dives to that depth. In many programs this also means a free ascent from 60 feet.

[nolatom]

My first-ever dive was a resort dive on a boat out of WPB. They were heading for one of the reefs just south of Riviera Beach, but low oil pressure limited boat, and us, to diving the outside of the breakwater in 25 feet. If not for that, my resort dive would've been around 55'. So I think going to 60 off WPB is kind of routine, at least when the water's warm.

I'm with Chuckitall on this. Is there more risk at 3 atm than at 2? Yeah, but there's less risk of an uncontrolled ascent below 30 feet too, esp for a new diver who might not have quick dump button reaction time, or judgement as to when and how much to use it.

In New England? Nuh-uh. But in the WPB drift-dives? Sure.

Condolences to this nice lady and her family, friends, and colleagues. I think the discussion about training depths kind of off-topic where an unfortunate medical event was the reason.

[RonFrank]

My first ocean dive was to a whopping 20', and it was a shore dive at LBTS. I had done a bunch of dives in BlueHole to 80' but I liked that my first Ocean dive was shallow. Of course I hit over 100' feet that week on the Grove. But it was one of those perfect dives with fantastic vis and no current. I was also diving with an instructor even if he was diving for pleasure that day. Ahhhh....memories. :D

[daniel1948]

Off the original topic, but seems to have become the new topic:

My PADI Discover Scuba dive, after some skills in shallow water, was to 40 FSW at Long Caye Wall, Glover's Reef, Belize. IIRC, my other 3 OW dives were to the same depth in the same general area. My "confined water" dives were next to the pier in shallow water. My first dive as a certified OW diver was to 60 feet, on Long Caye Wall. I was a bit nervous about the depth, but stayed very close to my buddy, who was a very experienced diver and a DM, though not "the" DM for the dive. The water was warm and clear with an extremely light current.

After that, my instructor offered to take me to 100 feet, which would have been the PADI "deep" dive of the AOW course. I declined. I saw no reason and felt no need, to go that deep.

[Ken Kurtis]

Our policy is a minimum of 12 supervised dives before going below 30 feet . . .

Clarify please: Who is "our"?


In many programs this also means a free ascent from 60 feet.

I would question the "many" qualifier. Most likely a "few".

But the other issue this raises is that if you're suggesting you're doing a 60-foot emergency ascent while someone's still in training, you may have agency standard violation issues.

- Ken

[Thalassamania]

Clarify please: Who is "our"?

Ken: Scientific Diving Community.


I would question the "many" qualifier. Most likely a "few".
I need to do a survey to find out precisely who is still doing what.


But the other issue this raises is that if you're suggesting you're doing a 60-foot emergency ascent while someone's still in training, you may have agency standard violation issues.

- KenSeveral things here, first the sixty foot free ascent is done prior to Endorsement to sixty feet. At that point the diver has had a minimum of 12 supervised instructional dives to 30 feet as part of entry level training, and 12 more mentored supervised dives between 30 and 60 feet. This is not part of any recreational agency's class, though the safety record of the recreational diving world might be significantly better if it were, so there is no question of standards violations ...

This is a conversation we are carrying on in another thread that branches off from:

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that the reason the scientific diving community enjoys the safety record that it does is (aside from good medical screening) because of the time spent working on free ascents and free diving. All of my students can comfortably and confidently hold their breath for 2 minutes (or more) and all have made, on the order of, 50 buoyant free ascents, first free diving and then later on scuba as part of learning, practicing and perfecting the doff and don exercise. If there is no cause for any medical concern and if any problem from equipment or less than careful monitoring of gas supply can be met with a calm and confident, properly executed, free ascent ... would that not go a long way in accounting for the scientific diving community's safety record?

How long is the recreational scuba diving world going to insist on jumping out of an airplane without a reserve chute and blaming the ensuing collision with the ground on running out of air?
your input is always valued.

[Garth]

I was diving dry in doubles by my 38th dive... Your telling me I should have had my hand held for the first 24 dives before I went to sixty feet?

That sounds like government progress with all do respect.

I don't see how training plays into this one other than coincidence.

[Garth]

Thalassamania sound like you are instructing the navy seals. The fact is two minutes for breath hold is a long time and doesn't represent the majority of the diving community I would guess. I could be wrong and I myself can get to two minutes and a few seconds no more but it's not easy.

You have a lot of good points.

[RedCash02]

Garth, you were also probably doing recreational dives with a minimal mental or physical task load beyond what was required to keep you safe underwater and navigate. Even most technical dives are still "recreational" in the sense that they aren't working dives.

Scientific diving can encompass a lot of different things, so it would make sense to have a longer training period. There's also the issue/liability that the divers will be operating professionally under the auspices of some institution or agency. Many of those guidelines have been in place for longer than some of the scuba certification agencies have been around and the scientific diving community doesn't need to suck the money out of Joe and his wife who want certified in two days on vacation.

[daniel1948]

All of my students can comfortably and confidently hold their breath for 2 minutes (or more)
Is this static, or diving? I've done a 4:15 static, and on any given day I can do a 3:00 static after adequate preparation and a few practice holds. But my longest free dive was 1:20, and if I'd had an instructor with me I'm confident I could have made it to 1:30. But a two-minute active dive, while well within the ability of many serious freedivers, is pretty extreme and probably outside the realm of the practical for a casual recreational scuba diver.

If you are saying that all your students can hold their breath for 2 minutes while swimming, then you are teaching some pretty high-level freedivers. If you are talking static apnea, then probably anybody reading this could do it after a day learning the proper techniques. Of course, the kind of breathe-up I need to do for even a 2-minute static won't be available in a sudden OOA situation calling for a controlled free ascent. Which is why I always watch my gas carefully and stay close to my buddy.

[Thalassamania]

I was diving dry in doubles by my 38th dive... Your telling me I should have had my hand held for the first 24 dives before I went to sixty feet?

That sounds like government progress with all do respect.

I don't see how training plays into this one other than coincidence.
Maybe it is coincidence, but the numbers are there as is the required implied causality.

Thalassamania sound like you are instructing the navy seals. The fact is two minutes for breath hold is a long time and doesn't represent the majority of the diving community I would guess. I could be wrong and I myself can get to two minutes and a few seconds no more but it's not easy.

You have a lot of good points.
Two minutes is just not that big a deal if taught properly.

Is this static, or diving? I've done a 4:15 static, and on any given day I can do a 3:00 static after adequate preparation and a few practice holds. But my longest free dive was 1:20, and if I'd had an instructor with me I'm confident I could have made it to 1:30. But a two-minute active dive, while well within the ability of many serious freedivers, is pretty extreme and probably outside the realm of the practical for a casual recreational scuba diver.

If you are saying that all your students can hold their breath for 2 minutes while swimming, then you are teaching some pretty high-level freedivers. If you are talking static apnea, then probably anybody reading this could do it after a day learning the proper techniques. Of course, the kind of breathe-up I need to do for even a 2-minute static won't be available in a sudden OOA situation calling for a controlled free ascent. Which is why I always watch my gas carefully and stay close to my buddy.The two minute holds are typically half way between. One buddy up, one down, breath hold still, but on the bottom in typically 13 feet of water. I agree, that is is not big deal and can be taught in short order ... that is why I am amazed that it is not; and that so many divers express trepidation and dismay at what I think are rather simple and basic skills.

[halemanō]

In my '92 PADI OW class, in the hotel pool in Kapa'a, our instructor, my two buddies and myself all took our regs out and left them out for over 3 minutes. I prevailed at just over 3:30. It was only an 8 foot deep pool, and there was no "planning" - it was just 4 guys with nothing better to do.

:dontknow:

[Garth]

Well then, I'm going to change my tune.... I wish my instructor had taught me those techniques.

:-)

[Garth]

Okay scratch my whole conversation. I just did a 2:16 breath hold while driving without doing any workup. I'm better than I thought. :-O

[vladimir]

Okay scratch my whole conversation. I just did a 2:16 breath hold while driving without doing any workup. I'm better than I thought. :-OI don't think "while driving" is the best time to test your breath hold capability.
:shakehead:

We had a breath hold competition in my OW class, which I won with a time of 72 seconds. By the end of the class I could do two minutes, so there is definitely some technique involved.

[DandyDon]

Okay scratch my whole conversation. I just did a 2:16 breath hold while driving without doing any workup. I'm better than I thought. :-O
While driving a car? :auto: OMG glad you didn't pass out at the wheel. But if you text chat and drive anyway...??

[LilMermaid1]

The dive was on the south side of the flower garden. The deepest Mrs. Ballard got according to my computer was only 47 feet actually and the time of the incident we were at only 42ft. This was per my computer read out. There was very little current and she was swimming along fine, gave an ok symbol and had a big smile on her face looking at a turtle just before. She was right next to me when it happened and it had nothing to do with diving skill or depth. She was smiling one second and the next she was blank, muscles locked and basically gone to heaven. It was devastating to all of us that were there. In less than two minutes she was back on board and getting CPR and O2 by the amazing team on board Ocean Quest's boat. In less than 6 minutes she had Coast Guard on board with a defib. The rescue was better than by the book with the exception that there was nothing that could be done. We do not have a definitive final answer or autopsy results yet but all facts known and the preliminary expert comments were all in agreement that it was most likely an aneurysm based on all the known facts. It could have happened anywhere, instead of staring at a burger, she was looking at the most beautiful reef, turtle and coral in crystal clear waters in perfect conditions on an amazing dive.

Mrs. Ballard was released to her family after donating some organs and tissues to help others just a few days after. Her services were held earlier this week and she is with Jesus now. That caring helpful nature that led her to donate parts of her self, was the woman she was in life. She was amazing. She helped single mothers, tons of them as part of her ministry in her church. She was working on her masters degree. She helped little children breath better and she helped everyone who ever met her. She was a gift to everyone who knew her and someone I consider my dear friend. I am deeply sad about not being able to spend more time with her.

It was her dream to be a diver and she let go of this world achieving that dream.

I personally believe she was very well trained and ready for the dive. She was conditioned for the dive in advanced having done weeks and weeks of pool laps to prepare for her training. She actually beat the time for her swim tests by 8 minutes to those who were in the same class who were half her age. The other students who dove with her had no problems other than emotional at the loss of their very sweet friend.

This was really not a diving accident. I would still say without a doubt Sandy's Sunday is one of the safest and well maintained dive boats in West Palm with one of the best trained and experienced crew. This crisis was handled extremely impressively with speed and calm correct and extensive efforts to do everything well trained rescue personnel could possibly do in this scenario. Nothing was forgotten, no mistakes were made. If I was in trouble and I got to pick my rescue team it would be them!

The incident was reviewed by several agencies and the initial statements are all pretty much the same. This was a medical issue and not really a diving accident. It just happened underwater.

I care very much for Julie and Julie's family and we will be putting a memorial plaque down on the reef in her honor. Your prayers and kind words are welcome. I have tried to think of a way to blame my self in this grieving process and after reviewing everything over and over and over and over I could not find one thing I would have changed, nor anyone I could have seen doing anything differently that would have kept her alive that day.

West Palm is a very safe place for a 7th and 8th dive in shallow reefs. Open water students will graduate and do dives within their certification allowance of 60 ft. If we certify to 60 feet in the ocean or fresh water, but only train them to go to 28 feet in the springs than were not doing our job to help them start out properly as well trained and good divers. Just because our standards say 5 dives does not mean that is all we should do either.

I always believe in safety first and if I can emotionally get through this I will continue to teach using the same methodology. Any diver in my class will not graduate or dive ocean until I am fully confident they are ready. I don't mind if it takes more time or more dives or more time in the text books. There are no shortcuts in my class. I know I am covering every skill as I use strict check slates and keep extremely well documented records and notes. Any students showing any weakness get free extra attention, training and dives until they are confidently proficient in those skills prior to proceeding. I have lost money doing this sometimes but I am ok with that. I also have no problem telling a student they can not do a dive in the ocean if they are not ready. I do not believe there is any lack of training or any additional skills work that could have provided any different an outcome. Again, I believe as do the authorities thus far that this was most likely a medical condition previously unknown.

It does not help me sleep knowing that. My heart is still broken and diving will never be the same for me again. My peaceful underwater world was shattered in that moment and I am not sure if I can ever go back.

Julie, you will forever be remembered by the plethora of people who had the wonderful gift of knowing you including myself. I am grateful for every moment we spent my dear friend. My deepest sympathy goes out to the entire Ballard family. I pray for you all daily.

[LilMermaid1]

I'm not sure what you learn at 60 feet that you can't learn at 30-40 feet. Actually diving at 60 feet is easier because of buoyancy stability. In Monterey people get their OW cert in the 20 40 range. Unless you dive from a boat most dives are 30-50 feet. You can dive the trench from shore at Monastery Beach and dive 100's of feet if you want. The deeper you go the darker and colder it gets. Visibility is an issue and the shallow dive is the safer dive if there is a problem and new divers have problems.

With all the extra equipment (full 7mm, hood, gloves, more weight) and the conditions (cold, poor visibility, surge, current,waves, kelp) the multitasking that a new diver faces in Monterey at 30-40 dive is plenty of challenge.

It seems the training and support this new diver received was excellent and it looks like a unpredictable heath related occurrence.

My condolences to the boat crew, instructor, family and friends.

Thank you very much. Her training was extensively reviewed after the incident and I KNOW she was proficiently trained and more than ready for that dive. For the record, there is no finger pointing that can be done in this, the boat crew did everything PERFECTLY-NOT ONE MISTAKE. They performed a rescue that could have been video taped for training others. It was done that well. It was impossible to do more than they did to help her.

She passed instantly at 42 feet, not 60 in my arms and nothing anyone could have done short of Jesus Christ performing a miracle would have made it so she would be here today. It repeats in my head and in my heart every moment since that moment. I know.

I personally feel if we do not include at least one dive to approximately 60 feet we are cheating a student in their training. If you say when they graduate they can dive to 60 feet then you need to train them to go that deep or close enough to be able to do it without you later with confidence. I know when a diver leaves my class with their card they are confident divers and I don't worry about them going to 60 feet because I know they are well trained for it and ocean is completely different than springs. I think ocean diving should be a requirement standard where available. I hope daily for all divers sakes, that every other instructor can say the same. There is a difference at 40 feet vs. 60 feet if nothing more than the feeling in breathing from a regulator. It is important to let the students experience ocean diving while your there to help them through it if it is practical for you to do so.

The reason I decided to become an instructor is because I was a dive master on many a dive leading freshly graduated OW divers from all over the world who did not know what the heck they were doing in the ocean. I saw some scary stuff these certified divers did all the time, from filling BCD's to go up from the bottom instead of kicking gently to breath holding on ascent while shooting up like superman from 50 feet. I promised myself then and keep that promise still that any diver I trained would feel confident and be proficient in their skills when it came time to do the real dives. I have never broken that promise.

Please fellow instructors, don't let your graduates be anything less than ready and confident to go into the ocean and dive to 60 feet. It is only fair to them.

[openmindOW]

Duplicate..

[Reef_Haven]

I have dived with Tina and Sandy many times. They are always very safe and professional. I have no doubt this was an unfortunate medical event. I have and will continue to recommend both the dive op and instructor to anyone.

[daniel1948]

The dive was on the south side of the flower garden. <...snip...>
Thank you for posting this. I hope you will not quit diving or instructing. Diving needs instructors like you. Again, my condolences to all Mrs. Ballard's family and friends.

[Splitlip]

Lilmermaid,

Thank you for the post from this ol' vintage diver, and ex-NAUI Instructor (#2710, 1973). When I went through the NAUI ITC, they emphasized to us to treat every student as if he or she was your loved one, because that student is someone else's loved one. John (SeaRat)

Hi John. (Sorry for the hijack All.) I saw your NAUI instructor number and pulled out my NAUI Openwater I Scuba Diver card. Not an instructor, but I was certed in 1973. My instructor's number was 1375. He, Frank, started diving in the late '40's early '50's. Sooo..I'm doing the math, LOL.

Thanks for the post.

[Moonglow]

NAUI Instructor #1375 would have been certified at an ITC in 1969. One of my NAUI instructors has a mid-300 NAUI number.

[Splitlip]

NAUI Instructor #1375 would have been certified at an ITC in 1969. One of my NAUI instructors has a mid-300 NAUI number.
Likely. Sounds about right. Thanks. (so John is not that old, LOL)

This story is 20 years old. Frank was my instructor and mentor. (until I went back to school)This particular dive occured earlier I believe.

Dan Volker wrote the story.

The South Florida Dive Journal (http://sfdj.com/dive/deep.html)

Frank's health is ok. He is the father of "modern" drift diving.

[John C. Ratliff]

Okay, you got me on the year for my NAUI ITC--it was 1972. I looked it up in the bio in the NAUI publication, Proceedings of the Sixth International Conference on Underwater Education (IQ6), where I had two papers published. One was titled "The Life Vest," and the other was titled "Comments on Buoyancy Control and Emergency Procedures" (Copyright NAUI, 1975, pages 317-332). The course director was Dennis Graver, and it was held in San Diego. I really remember doing one of the tests, swimming through about 200 yards of surf doing actual, in-water mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on my buddy. We all had to do actual, live in-water mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to graduate.

I am hoping within the next year to again become a NAUI Instructor in active standing. I would like to teach some new concepts in underwater swimming to Wounded Warriors, our servicemen and women who have suffered greatly from these latest wars.

Lilmermaid, I was not kidding that we have a real, buoyant force in our Love of people and of God, and that can get us through a great deal. It got me through the Vietnam War. Give it some time, but remember that there are much, much worse ways to go than what Mrs. Ballard experienced. My wife is a hospital pharmacist, and she has seen a lot. You gave her great joy in her last hours.

John (SeaRat)

PS: Splitlip, if you're still doing the math, I was twenty-seven when I got my NAUI Instructor #2710, and am a December birthday. Enjoy!

[LilMermaid1]

Kevin,

You are so kind. Thank you for your comments.. I really do appreciate your confidence in me.
________________________

All those on this thread who have posted your concerns and statements,

I have taught my first class since this incident with lots of help at my side for obvious reasons (Thank you so much Dan and Chris) and although we had to do mask clearing way more than necessary to hide some tears I made it through Day 1 class with all students doing superb through every skill on my check list.

Thank you all for having the tact and heart to stop with the finger pointing and start with the constructive comments and kind words to the wonderful people who are her family and love her so much and to the boat captain and co-captain and deck hand who bravely, professionally and swiftly worked hard to do extensive rescue efforts on Julie's behalf and to me.

Her wonderful family have been on here and saw what was written too. Out of respect for them, lets keep this about Julie.

All instructors (hopefully) go through tons of training and know what they are doing. Although they have different styles with which I may not always agree I must respect the agency standards and regulation that govern that rank and my certification. That is the choice I made when I chose this agency to train with and certify me. I know what it took me to earn it and there were no shortcuts. Both Dive-master and Instructor training were long internships with real pros. I was blessed with great training from Dayo in Winter Park and Teri in Edgewater who I would highly recommend. After being in this for a while now, I must say they did not leave anything out and none of it was easy.

I am sure that most instructors than not today would probably agree they got just as good as training as I and that they too took no short cuts and earned their wings. I believe NAUI and PADI and even SSI do a great job at regulating and standard governing.

To be honest we all know this is naturally a high risk extreme sport. Although when your staring at a beautiful reef and just floating in a drift dive it is hard to think of it as dangerous, but it is. We choose this knowing the danger. NO ONE EVER really believes it will happen this way to them.

The only firm advice I will leave this thread with is this: Be such a good instructor that if someone dies on your watch (GOD FORBID) that you don't have to question at all your training of that student. Be THAT good ALL THE TIME.

I am not so naive that I would believe no instructor or dive boat is never at "FAULT" in diving fatalities. I just choose to not immediately start trying to figure out who was at fault when I hear of a diving related accident. Our curiosities get the best of us when we hear of such things wanting to know more. On here though I saw allot of statements that were completely erroneous about this incident just sort of spit out. Not pointing any fingers, nor stating any names but this is a PUBLIC forum people. You never know who reads what you write. Think about that before you hit POST. You could really end up embarrassing yourself, or much much worse, hurting someone.

I am a big girl and am responsible for my actions. If I thought really for one second I was actually responsible for my friends death I would never and could never teach again. That is just not the case. I have made a mistake and learned from it during my tenure but safety has always been in the front of my mind in every class where I teach someone else this "extreme sport"

The trauma of the experience really hit me hard, really hard. I am strong and have wonderful friends and family and advisors who have kindly helped me continue to live on and the most amazing family of Julie's who have so touched my heart and warmed my hope in this world. True light has shown from each of Julie's sisters, her mother and her wonderful husband who I have been so graced by the presence of in my life. I am so grateful for their clear love of Jesus Christ in showing me his love and kindness despite their profound personal suffering they are enduring now at her loss.

These words here on this board are real lives being so very changed. The shuffling of the topic to a debate on how or what "extras" to throw into a class or how your standards are better than others left my heart heavy and sad. It just seemed so wrong and dishonoring to Julie. Frankly I think the information belongs to no one but her family and close friends, however, I shared the details for this reason.

I will work harder, be better, learn more, teach better and better every day. Her life and this experience will be a constant reminder to never grow tired in that goal to never stop the effort to improve myself, my training and my training of others. I am trusting you my fellow instructors to make your training the absolute best you are physically able to offer. Extras are great.. the more training the better, the safer the better too. Let's work together to make diving as safe as an extreme sport as it is possible to do. Teach every student as though they were your daughter or son, mother or sister, brother or father. Love what you do or quit. This job for most is NEVER about money. I personally would like to encourage each of you to let kind Julie's death remind you of the terrible possibilities that could await slack training, regardless of the fact that her death was not a diving accident.

In the mean time lets continue to respect each other and Julie, and be wonderful professional examples to new OW students and even non-divers of what good instructors and people dive instructors really are and treat each other well. After all; you commented on here because you cared about her loss. That tells me allot about who you are. Thank you for caring.

I am sure angels get to scuba dive, it is too great for them not too. Julie wanted to dive. I believe she has the freedom to do any dive anywhere now. She worked so hard to give to others, even strangers, I hope she gets her heavenly vacation time to scuba dive some more. Who knows maybe she will be down there on the reef with you some day. I will not presume to know exactly what heaven is like. I just know I want to be there some day, I want to see my friend again.

With Love, Respect, and Gratitude,
Tina