Empress of Ireland Site being closed ???

[jroy017]

I have a coworker who knows I`m an avid diver tell me this morning that she heard on the radio coming to work(CBC in Montreal) that they were closing down the Empress to divers. I tried to look the info up on the CBC web site or other news sites but haven't found anything. Has anybody else heard about this ?? Or have related info ???

[dmdoug]

I believe that statement may have been made because of the new "historic site" designation.

In the designation is the clause that salvage companies may no longer bring up artifacts from the site. With quite a bit tied up in salvage operations for her nickel this could and will be a big hit to local salvage operators.

The Empress of Ireland is still ok to dive as a recreational dive. I had a friend complete a week worth of diving about 3 weeks ago.

If there are divers out there that wish to try and obtain a licence to conduct a survey, I believe they are not granting any licences for this site now that she has been designated a historical site.

Safe diving,

[mddolson]

quote:I believe that statement may have been made because of the new "historic site" designation."

This is hardly new, the Empress of Ireland was declared a historical sight well over 3 years ago.

Mike D

[DeepScuba]

Salvage company???

Not in decades man!!!!

And, although within recreational depth limits (For the most part) with any serious diving, it's way beyond recreational.

She's getting pretty ugly, I will tell you that much. It's falling apart inside Big-Time.

Regards.

[on my way wanda]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
Salvage company???

Not in decades man!!!!

And, although within recreational depth limits (For the most part) with any serious diving, it's way beyond recreational.

She's getting pretty ugly, I will tell you that much. It's falling apart inside Big-Time.

Regards.

I agree it is not considered a recreational dive at all with a wicked current and poor structure inside and out, I know that this is a dive for tec. divers and not a single tank dive as well. Later:)

[Northeastwrecks]

This dive is on my lifetime list. I hope that it remains open for tech diving. I swear that I don't want to take anything.:)

[BigAlex]

May be true in the very short future that dives on the Empress may be banned.

National Post (Oct 31/03)
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id=D18DB8A5-8FEC-4F79-964E-5C8501385F39

[Groundhog246]

This sounds like your typical Government over reaction. And we've lots of roads around here that have had way more than 6 deaths, that haven't had a single change made.
I notice in the article that the buddy pair also removed a plaque. While it saddens me when anyone (any diver) dies or is injured, you have to wonder just how stupid were these people anyway. I hope the surviving buddy was charged.

[DeepScuba]

Thanks for the post BA, I have been looking for evidence since yesterday.

By the way, I didn't mean that it has been decades since you were able to take stuff up from the wreck. But I new it had been a while, and certainly no major "salvaging" has been done in years!!!


Groundhog:

Don't speak too loudly about Dany, he's got more Empress dives than you and I have showers!!!!

He's a real nice, un-assuming guy. To look at him you'd never think he has the most Empress dives of I think anybody in the world.

Short and a little pudgy.....Sorry Dany!!! But just super. And don't forget, he fills our tanks!!! SO be nice :-)

He got his stuff when it was all legal, just like the rest of them.

It's a heated debate, but if you saw the condition of the wreck, you'd be hard pressed to slam anyone for bringing up, what would now be "scraps".

As far as I'm conerned, anyone bringing up something "decent" now, decades after the major looting has been done,......is quite the feat.

And uhm, it's illegal now too.........so don't get caught.

I don't give much credence to the papers view that just "anyone" can go and dive her. Sure if you have a boat, I guess you could. But I doubt that Dany or Jean-Pierre would take you if you didn't have the qualifications.

regards

[Groundhog246]

DeepScuba once bubbled...
Groundhog:

Don't speak too loudly about Dany, he's got more Empress dives than you and I have showers!!!!

He got his stuff when it was all legal, just like the rest of them.

And uhm, it's illegal now too.........so don't get caught.
I haven't slightest idea who Dany is, nor did know the diver who died. But, IMNHO, people who deliberately break laws are often subject to other poor choices too. If he collected when it was legal, OK. If he thinks that gives him the right to continue to collect, not OK.

As an example I offer the divers who break the rules (lot a law, but close) at Gilboa Quarry, sneak across the wall to the deep side, suffer a failure at depth and are injured or killed. It shouldn't happen, but it does (on a far too regular basis), leading to ever more restrictions on who is allowed to dive the deep side.

Our governments have decided that they must pass ever more restricting laws to keep people from injuring or killing themselves. It'll never work, especially since there's never adequate enforcement. Those they're trying to protect will often ignore the law. It just makes life less enjoyable for the rest of us. From the cops (and other authorities) point of view, one of their biggest issue is the risk to rescue personel and the hit their budgets take. Thus, rather than have to rescue (or recover bodies) they'd ban the activity. Same discussion has taken place over the Arabia in Tobermory.

In the end, every dive has risk attached (so does driving to the dive site). Many of those who don't dive would remove that risk by not allowing us to dive. They'd also ban rock climbing, sky diving and other "dangerous" activities. I've a few acquaintances
who consider my sailing across and around Georgian Bay to be extremely dangerous and if allowed would probably restrict the legality of it. One friend has told me she'd never sail where she can't see the bottom. As a boater, the last thing I want to see is the bottom. :)

[DPVDiver]

Two ponits, first the empress is a difficult wreck to dive but I think banning diving her is crazy. I believe Nearly three times as many people have died on the Arabia. More people get killed on the roads every day.

Secondly, the empress is deteriorating super fast. Banning collection in my opinion was the wrong thing to do. I am all for protecting our pristine lake ontario and St. Lawrence wrecks in fresh water but The Empress WILL be gone soon, why not have as much of it available for display as possible.

BTW, Philippe Beaudry who has recently sold or is trying to sell his Empress collection was one of the people who fought strongly to have artifact collection banned. HMM, I wonder why, now his collectin is worth what? 1.5Mil. I think it looks great on the Quebec gov't because he got them to ban collection to increase the value of his artifacts just to sell them. Now they try to stop it.


Deepscuba, your right about Dany. Great Guy, he probably has more Empress dives than this whole board together.

[DeepScuba]

DPV:

Easily more than everyone here.

As I mentioned, he got all of his stuff pre-illegal times.

What this other guys death has to do with him (Dany) is beyond me.

I've met Beaudry once too. He's a shark. Can't say I blame him. He did the dives, he reeps the rewards, The fact that every Canadian diver (almost) hates him is irrelevant. It's his stuff.

If I wanted some polished teak wood, I guess I could still grab some too :-)

hehheh...Flame on boys. Just words on a page. It's legal yesterday, it's illegal today...what has changed???

Nothing but words on paper. It ain't like it's real imporant to the scheme of life.

The skeletons are now dust, the spirits of the dead are long gone. The last survivor, a young girl at the time, from St Catharines, Ontario, is long gone.

Now it's but a rotting hull, which will soon enough be gone as well.


I've thought the same thing as you DPV, I've done more dives on the Empress than I have on the Arabia!!!! And looking at straight deaths, yup, the Arabia has more!

Sounds like Government's banging on all 7 cylinders again!

Dumb-a$$e$.

Not to mention they would be ruining the living of a few people in that part of the Gaspe.

Maybe Beaudry is behind this latest plan as well!

I can see it now.

Who me??? No, I'm just going to dive the Nipigon, Mr Coast Guard sir.........VRoooooom, gone.

If it's up to me, I'm doing the Empress again.

[dmdoug]

I was speaking to a friend and he stated that in the not too recent past there was a death on the Empress. The QPP, I believe, are attempting to make it illegal to dive on due to this loss of life while diving.

The move is a recommendation that is being brought forward as part of the post mortum.

Any thoughts.....

Dive safe,

[Doppler]

The authorities in Quebec -- the police in this case -- had their hands tied at the inquest and put forward the suggestion that the only way to "stop the deaths" is to ban diving. Naturally, this is recognised as an inappropriate move and any attempt will result in serious civil disobience I would imagine... they did just sink a destroyer there folks, so there's an active focus on wreck diving by the local tourism operators.

And anyway, I just booked a charter to the Empress for August of next year... so don't think much has changed.

take care

[Kevin R]

I dove the Empress about a month after the death last summer. Our first day on the wreck, the QPP was diving it at the same time, doing their investigation. We were warned to stay out of that area of the wreck so we stuck to other areas. We asked Danny about the death. From what we were told, it was natural selection at work. Penetration in a deep, dark, nasty wreck, no line, no buddy, no question. You pay your money, you take your chances. You've stuck your head into a place where you can't breathe, and if you aren't aware of the risks, maybe you should consider chess. What are we going to ban next, nitrox because someone might push their PO2 past 1.6. How about having everyone on a leash so we cannot dive past the depth limit of our training?

Just my thoughts.

Kevin

[Groundhog246]

dmdoug once bubbled...
The QPP, I believe, are attempting to make it illegal to dive on due to this loss of life while diving.
Any thoughts.....

Another stupid idea brought forward by those who would save us from ourselves. Rather than accept the fact that people do stupid or careless things and then they die, they try to outlaw stupidity and carelessness.
Be it diving, boating, biking, there's no activity wiothout risk. Since they can't eliminate risk, they'll try to eliminate the activity. Look at all the playgrounds that have been ripped out (at least around here). Many have been in place for 20 or 30 years and for the vast majority of them, no one had died there. BUT because of a few isolated incidents, their ripping out equipment that most of us played on as kids as being totally unsafe. And in many cases, due to lack of funds, it's being replaced with NOTHING. Then the same people tell you to get your kids outside and keep them active.

[Acronycal]

Assuming that the Empress will be available for diving this summer, I am interested in any relevant info eg. charts or diagrams of the layout of the ship(both original and current) and more technical info from recent dives to the site eg. conditions, twins? Air? Trimix? silt, vis, current etc...

[DeepScuba]

Acronycal:

I'll give it a shot for you. The ships plans are fairly easily attained......and if I remembered the name of the book I borrowed from a friend, I'd tell you it! Something to do with "Liner" i think, but maybe not. It had the plans of the Empress in it. The entire book is on the Empress. A search would find it easily enough.

As far as the current "layout" goes. It's ugly. There's no inside walls that I remember seeing (Of course I wasn't 4 levels down either!!). Navigating is pretty tough because of it. You mainly have to go by "hard" objects like the stove in the 1st class kitchen, etc. It's still there. There's lots of plumbing here and there, but they don't help much in determining where you are.

I know the vis was very poor when I was there (So I'm told), so maybe it's not really that bad, but it essentially a pile of, uhmm junk/lumber/wiring/stuff, thrown every which way, inside the hull.

I'm sure with continual diving, you'd get to know it quite well, but for us one or 2 timers, it's a tough row to hoe.

Definately doubles, it's cold (high 30's to low 40's) we had vis of 3 to 10 ft TOPS, we did air dives (covenience) plus the average depth is maybe 125ft. Heavy tidal current if you get caught at the wrong times.

I hope to go for 1 or 2 weeks this year coming (2004). I'd contemplate bringing 02 for a light nitrox dive just to make it all that much more bearable as far as bottom time vs. deco time goes. It's still damn cold any way you slice it, after 1.5hrs in the water per dive.

As bad as it is, I'm hooked. I can't get enough of it. I have so much more left on my list that I didn't accompish on her this year. I'm playing catch-up!

Now you've just re-lit that flame.....damn you!!! It's too far off just yet.

[mddolson]

I have a coworker who knows I`m an avid diver tell me this morning that she heard on the radio coming to work(CBC in Montreal) that they were closing down the Empress to divers. I tried to look the info up on the CBC web site or other news sites but haven't found anything. Has anybody else heard about this ?? Or have related info ???

I recieved the following email today, I am posting it for those interested in the Empress of Ireland.
I hope this info helps. It is presented as information only, and not as advertising. I subscribe to a newletter from Alp-Martimes Sports, and am in no way associated with them in any capacity professionaly.

"One of the mandates we had this last summer was furnishing the Coroner of Quebec with technical expertise during their investigation into the last death on the Empress of Ireland. Despite the unpleasant reality of working for the coroner we were gratified in that we could pool together real experts in diving, wreck diving and especially diving the Empress. We feel that this resulted in some very sound conclusions. At the end of these inquests comes the recommendation phase, the goal being to learn from accidents and to not repeat errors. In this phase just about anyone who has a stake in the matter can give a recommendation. In all the public and private interest groups came up with many dozen recommendations. The Provincial Police of Quebec, of course, made a recommendation. Based on the “risk elimination philosophy”, that all police must follow, their sole recommendation was to close the Empress to diving. Ironically this was the only recommendation that the press services reported on, based on their “report the most sensational philosophy”.

In the weeks that followed we received hundreds of questions on the subject. The answer is that the EMPRESS IS NOT CLOSED TO DIVING nor is it very likely that this will happen. During the spring the coroner will draft “recommendations” which will be studied by the government.

Rest assured that we are gearing up for another great season of diving on the Empress and as well the Nipigon. "

Warmest Regards,
Capt. Gary Kulisek and the entire Crew
ALP-MARITIMES SPORTS INC.

Regards

Mike D

[DeepScuba]

I can't imagine them ever closing it. I thought the reason for sinking the nipigon was to further enhance the area for diving. Closing the Empress now would be entirely stupid, as not too many people would drive/fly hours and hours to do the Nipigon!

Entirely stupid..........Government..........uhmmmm, maybe they would.