Doria question

[grouchyturtle]

Why is it that the Doria is...as they say, considered the Mt. Everest of diving, when there are actually some deeper wrecks, that divers have been down on?

[DA Aquamaster]

I think it has to do with a combination of things.

It's relatively far off shore in rough seas that can put a strain on a diver before they even get to the wreck. (and it's a long way from help if you need it, even by helicopter.)

It's in cold water with limited visibility and potentially strong currents. There are other deeper wrecks in other areas, but visibility, current and temperature are often less challenging.

It is not the deepest wreck around but deep enough to be a very risky proposition on air and to require substantial deco whatever gas you breathe.

It has china that is valued enough to make people want to penetrate the wreck and at times to take unreasonable risks to get it.

The wreck is large, is laying on it's side, and is well silted which all increase the potential to become disoriented.

The wreck is in relatively poor condition, covered in nets and is starting to fall in on itself due to the effects of rust and sitting on it's side for nearly 50 years.

It was also a very well known and very public sinking that has had lots of media coverage over the years in relation to diving, starting with Peter Gimbal diving the wreck the day after it sunk. If you dive the Andrea Doria it means more than most wrecks because everybody, even non-divers, know what you are talking about. That does a lot for bragging rights.

The analogy also pretty good as Everest may be tallest but is by no means the most difficult or dangerous peak to climb in the Himalayas. (K2 is far more deadly and far more difficult to climb.)

Everest is not hard to climb from a technical standpoint with only one section requiring a great deal of technical climbing skills (the Hillary Step). The difficulty comes from the debilitating effects of altitude and the limited time you can spend above 28,000 feet, (even with 02) and the unpredictable weather. It is however a valued climb as it is the highest and this creates an attraction for people to climb it and to often take unreasonable risks to summit.

Getting up Everest is not really the problem, getting down before dark or before the weather catches you is and 1/3 of the people who have summitted Everest have died on the way down.

Similarly, getting down to the Andrea Doria is not really the problem.

[VTernovski]

DA Aquamaster pretty much covered your question, but I highly recommend you read the following two books that will give you an even better insight at what goes on when you dive this thing:

'The Last Dive', by Bernie Chowdhury (ISBN 0-06-019462-6)

and

'Deep Descent', by Kevin F. McMurray (ISBN 0-7434-0063-1)

If you can attend the Beneath The Sea scuba show in NJ in March 2004, you can have you book authographed by the author; and, of course, ask them all kinds of questions, which is pretty cool!



grunzster once bubbled...
Why is it that the Doria is...as they say, considered the Mt. Everest of diving, when there are actually some deeper wrecks, that divers have been down on?

[mwilding]

VTernovski once bubbled...
DA Aquamaster pretty much covered your question, but I highly recommend you read the following two books that will give you an even better insight at what goes on when you dive this thing:

'The Last Dive', by Bernie Chowdhury (ISBN 0-06-019462-6)

and

'Deep Descent', by Kevin F. McMurray (ISBN 0-7434-0063-1)

If you can attend the Beneath The Sea scuba show in NJ in March 2004, you can have you book authographed by the author; and, of course, ask them all kinds of questions, which is pretty cool!


You can get these books at http://www.bookcloseouts.com/ (http://www.bookcloseouts.com/bc/home.asp) for $15 shipped for both!

[grouchyturtle]

Actually Doug picked up the book when we went last year.

It's been sitting here for a few weeks, I've just been so busy I haven't started it yet, although I have skimmed through a few spots.

[HPT3]

Bill found that the Hillary Step was a difficult climb as well.

[Danny D]

Plus several people have died trying to penetrate the wreck ..like a couple years ago when that father son team penetrated it and something fell on the father causeing him to become stuck..They ran out of air because when the father finally got freed they forgot where they left thier stage bottles . They had to make a emergency ascent with no air and both got bent. Father died at the surface and I think the son might have lived after getting out of the hyperbaric chamber, but I can;t remember if he did for sure.
Those kinds of events add to making the Doria a very challenging dive as well as the reasons that other have stated.

[XJae]

wrong wreck, but there are plently of similar stories.
it's my job to make sure that one day its not some nutcase and his brother.

[grouchyturtle]

I think you're thinking of the Rouses.

The son was the one who got stuck. It was actually on a U boat, not the Doria.

Doh! XJae beat me!

[Danny D]

Yeah thats right...not the Doria...well heed that warning.

I thought the show on it showed the father getting stuck. he entered a room and something fell on him pinning him to the floor...? Well its not like I haven;t been wrong before...

[DA Aquamaster]

"The Last Dive" is a great book if you want to read up on the accident. As well as can be pieced together, some shelving fell on the son while he was digging around on the floor in the captains cabin on the U-boat. He panicked and started screaming and flailing around and the father went in after him to free him. He did manage to free him but they both lost their bearings in the silt and had trouble getting out. When they did exit it was from another part of the U-boat and they were not able to find their way back to the original entrance where the stage bottles with the deco gas were located. They started deco with what they had left but then had a regulator problem and the dad went to the surface to arrange for more gas. The son however quickly followed and both were badly bent by the time they surfaced.

The dad died in a very short time and the son survived long enough to make it to a recompression chamber but there was not a lot they could do for him as he was way beyond what could be done in a chamber with a 165' depth capability. (We are talking trying to draw a blood sample and getting nothing but foam.)

The dive was done on air and nitrogen narcosis was definitely a contributing factor to the accident. It was speculated that on the one hand, trimix would have helped both in the U-boat and again once outside in finding their way back to the stage bottles. On the other hand the higher gas consumption associated with trimix may have resulted in them running out of gas in the U-boat. Who knows. It was however a very aggressive penetration and a very dangerous dive under any circumstance.

[Danny D]

Yeah that sounds more like it.. I could actually picture the show step by step with the way you poetically described the book ....lol

[DA Aquamaster]

Most of the book is about the Rouse's dive history with a much more interesting side plot involving the author, Benie Chowdhury, and his own accident where he missed about 90 minutes of deco. The actual coverage of what happned in the U-boat is found near the end and is fairly brief. It's followed by Chrissy's really horrible death which is a lot longer.

That part of the book would make a great "Scared Straight" program for tech divers. " If you f#%* up this is what will happen to you..."

[ScottyK]

DA Aquamaster once bubbled...
That part of the book would make a great "Scared Straight" program for tech divers. " If you f#%* up this is what will happen to you..."

It definitely shook me up, and upset me also. The author does almost too good a job of showing you the real people behind the story. I felt like I lost two friends by the time I reached the end of the book.

[Curly]

Those guys dove out of (and the son worked at) our LDS. Some of their Doria stuff is in the display case there, along with other artifacts. Tragic story.

[DeepScuba]

Curly:

I'm curious, is there any talk about them still today?

And pics, memorials etc in the shop?

I assume the home they built is still there and is occupied by someone else? Do they know the story?

So much to wonder about.

Is anyone else at the shop that dove with them still there?

[Curly]

Curly:

I'm curious, is there any talk about them still today?

And pics, memorials etc in the shop?

I assume the home they built is still there and is occupied by someone else? Do they know the story?

So much to wonder about.

Is anyone else at the shop that dove with them still there?

I've heard them mentioned from time to time, more anecdotal than anything else. Sometimes someone in a class who has read Bernie's book will ask. No pictures, memorials or anything else. But a few of the artifacts in the display case are labeled as found by them. No idea if the wife & mother is still in the area. Many of the folks from the shop have been there a long time, and no doubt knew them. I know of one wreckvalley regular who has also done business with that shop, and perhaps even taught some classes through it.

In the end, it's a sad and tragic story about two guys who pushed the proverbial envelope and paid the ultimate price.

[wrekdiver2]

No idea if the wife & mother is still in the area.


I believe Sue moved to Florida.

[DrySuitDave]

How difficult is it for one to get loose artifacts off the Doria?

[grouchyturtle]

Are there even any left?

[Curly]

Are there even any left?

From what I've heard, there's stuff left, but it's quite a hazardous venture getting to the stuff. A guy walked into our LDS last year and pulled out a piece of third-class china, which he'd promised to one of the guys who works in the shop. So I loitered and listened to his story of his most recent trip down to the Doria. He said that there's not much readily available, and the wreck is collapsing.

But, still, it was pretty cool to be in there when he brought the piece into the shop -- and getting a chance to hold it. That's about as close to the Doria as I'll ever get.

[TechBlue]

Plus several people have died trying to penetrate the wreck ..like a couple years ago when that father son team penetrated it and something fell on the father causeing him to become stuck..They ran out of air because when the father finally got freed they forgot where they left thier stage bottles . They had to make a emergency ascent with no air and both got bent. Father died at the surface and I think the son might have lived after getting out of the hyperbaric chamber, but I can;t remember if he did for sure.
Those kinds of events add to making the Doria a very challenging dive as well as the reasons that other have stated.
Chris & Chris Rouse died after diving the U-Who not the Doria

[XJae]

He said that there's not much readily available, and the wreck is collapsing.

If anybody hasn't seen it yet...

In the episode of Deep Sea Detectives on the Doria,
they had an artist rendering of what it looks like now.
If I remember correctly most decks above the hull are now a debris field.

It was the same artist who did the dust jacket for the hardcover version of Deep Descent.
Both pictures are excellent artist renderings.
I'd actually like a copy of these prints, if anyone knows where I could get them.

[TechBlue]

The superstructure has slid off and become a big, easy to get lost in debris field but as the wreck opens up more artifacts become available. Sorry can't help you with the prints.

[DeepScuba]

I'm salivating again............

Gotta get me some artifacts.....

Yes that's exactly how I feel.

With any luck I'll not go blindly bungling towards my doom.

Well, at least I'd be a little more streamlined than what's-his-name with the Home Depot size X-LARGE tool belt, decked out with every tool imagineable.

Ormsby......yeah that was his name. (Brain fade)

Man that was God-awful.

[XJae]

Yeah, I imagine with the superstructure gone the below decks are more accessible.
I suppose most the remaining first class treasures are now near the bottom of the debris heap.

As far as the suicide clip thing... the lesson learned is,
if you notice someone with a potential hazard, don't assume they know better, speak up.

[grouchyturtle]

suicide clip?

I know the whole suicide clip BAD thing, but where was it mentioned in this thread?

[DeepScuba]

It's in the book. RE: John Orsmby.

C'mon man, get reading!!! :-)

[grouchyturtle]

Sorry!

I just finished cramming in all the reading for my Nitrox and Druysuit class. Plus working on our site. I have skimmed through most of those books. Really I will eventually read one of them!

In fact I have last dive sitting on my desk right now!

[DeepScuba]

Not that book!!!!!

Seriously, it was in Deep Descent I think (I read too much, getting books confused!!)

Just kiddin' with ya bud. I find it hard to keep up too!

[DA Aquamaster]

The Ormsby incident was mentioned in both books although less obviuosly in one than the other and the differences in some of the details and reactions of other divers mentioned in the books are interesting.