How do experienced divers define "What is Advanced Diving?"

[halemanō]

OK, there are three pieces to this posting; this thread here in Advanced Scuba Discussions (for divers who do feel they are advanced divers), a thread in Basic Scuba Discussions (for divers who don't feel they are advanced divers) and a thread in Technical Diving Specialties (for divers who make technical dives).

OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

So, please answer the question in the proper forum; the question is slightly different in each different forum; this question is for those who are advanced divers (<50 dives :shakehead:).

[Thalassamania]

Sorry, it's a stupid question, based on stupid names for dive courses, none of which begin to create an "advanced" diver.

In skiing there are beginners, intermediates and experts, you know who they are when you see them, you know who they are by the slopes and trail that they ski, the problem in diving is that often all you've got to try and guess who they are is their mouth (or keyboard).

How do I know I've spotted and advanced diver when I'm not underwater to see what they can do? It's the guy (or gal) who can go into Monastery on a big day (or it's local equivalent), make the dive, body surf the break back in, crawl up the beach out of the water, take their fins off, and trudge up the beach face before the next wave breaks, with a grin on their face and snot on their lip.

You want a set of definitions that work? Go look back, we've had this whole discussion before. (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/358889-master-really-17.html#post5619320)

[DevonDiver]

I'm a technical trained diver, but I also do what I consider 'advanced' recreational dives. Sometimes I do very basic dives also. Where should I post?

[halemanō]

I'm a technical trained diver, but I also do what I consider 'advanced' recreational dives. Sometimes I do very basic dives also. Where should I post?

It was spelled out in very few words in all three OP's!


thread in Technical Diving Specialties (for divers who make technical dives).

[halemanō]

Sorry, it's a stupid question, based on stupid names for dive courses, none of which begin to create an "advanced" diver.

In skiing there are beginners, intermediates and experts, you know who they are when you see them, you know who they are by the slopes and trail that they ski, the problem in diving is that often all you've got to try and guess who they are is their mouth (or keyboard).

How do I know I've spotted and advanced diver when I'm not underwater to see what they can do? It's the guy (or gal) who can go into Monastery on a big day (or it's local equivalent), make the dive, body surf the break back in, crawl up the beach out of the water, take their fins off, and trudge up the beach face before the next wave breaks, with a grin on their face and snot on their lip.

You want a set of definitions that work? Go look back, we've had this whole discussion before. (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/358889-master-really-17.html#post5619320)

Thal, I am not talking about course names. I asked for each persons opinion of when they would, or did, consider themselves an advanced diver. These threads are not asking you if other divers are advanced divers.

If you were to actually participate, you would tell us when you first felt that you were an advanced diver? And then also tell us your thoughts "now" regarding when you think you were an advanced diver?

[vladimir]

I once posted here that the Yongala can often be an advanced dive spot. I got a little condescension from a few divers who are no doubt better trained than I am and more accustomed to challenging conditions. But it's really a question of semantics. If the divers who can comfortably and safely do the dive are two standard deviations from the mean diver, then it's an advanced dive, even if it may seem trivial to some. There is no generally accepted objective definition of an "advanced diver," so it has to be a relative quality. What is an "A" student?

When did I feel I was advanced? There was no revelatory dive; the logic was the same. You go out on a liveaboard and find that you are more competent than most of your fellow divers, so you figure you're "advanced."


:joke:
It seems to be the custom in the DIR forum to proclaim yourself just a beginner--often one who is not certified. This bit of false humility serves a few purposes: it lets the people who dive in warm water with single aluminum 80s know that they aren't even beginners; it lets everybody know that you are accustomed to diving with the giants in the sport--people whose buoyancy fluctuations are measured in centimeters; it bonds you to the cohort that have also been run over by the bus; and, most importantly, it signals that you know what you don't know.
:joke:


With that in mind, I think I am advanced when graded on the curve, but practically a non-diver using that other scale.

:D

[Jax]

If people would quit attacking the OP and think about it, these (3 forums) are very good questions.

Some beginners ask about Nitrox in the "Advanced" thread. Others follow Uncle Ricky' s definition from the sticky.

I submit that advanced is more related to experience AND ability to handle a variety of situations.

For example, I am comfortable in deeper waters (100'-160') and incurring deco, slinging a couple of stages of different deck gases. I do this in warmer waters and in lesser vis.

Now, change a few things and I am back to being a beginner. Cold water makes a huge impact on my dexterity, thought agility, awareness, etc.

So, "advanced" assumes training to handle the dive; but also relates to the amount and variety of experience in the given environment.

:popcorn:



Tapatalk by Droid

[DevonDiver]

these (3 forums) are very good questions.

I don't really see the point. The Basic-Advanced definitions in a 'recreational' sense are going to be entirely skewed by personal perspective and training/experience level. Do we really need threads to clarify what will come of those discussions? Divers choose to use the Basic/Advanced forums based on their perspective of their skill/experience. Sometimes we get a OW divers posting nitrox questions in Advanced... or how to do a weight check. Sometimes we get experienced divers posting about deco theory in basic.

According to Halemano's specific terms, I'm not allowed to comment in either of those threads, because I am also a technical diver.

This thread, in this forum, is really going to be about 'advanced technical diving'. Limited audience - limited viewpoint. However, I really don't want to have to say that 'advanced diving' is Trimix below 100m etc etc... because there are many forms of diving - many of them not technical in nature, but still 'advanced'.

What can be advanced? Excellent core skills?.. or are they still 'basic'? Fundies is basic or advanced? Depth range?

Number of 'tools' in a divers' toolbox to plan and conduct dives? Nitrox, Rec Trimix, Trimix, SCR, CCR, Tables, Dive Computer, Planning software, wreck skills, cave skills, reel skills, gas blending, equipment servicing, etc etc etc

What about experience? cold water, currents, viz, night, marine life, number of countries/continents dived, years diving, number of logged dives, number of incidents experienced, reaction to narcosis etc etc etc

I don't count myself as an 'advanced' technical diver. I've gained quite a bit of experience, but only within relatively narrow parameters. Others may have more experience in wider parameters. Others may have less experience, but in wider parameters. Relativity.

We also have 'pro' ratings to consider. An advanced instructor versus a novice instructor. Experience? Range of qualification? Both?

[DaleC]

This thread, in this forum, is really going to be about 'advanced technical diving'.

Huh? I think you meant advanced recreational diving. Seeing as there are already two whole forums with multiple subforums dedicated to technical diving I don't see this as yet another forum for technical diving and it's limited scope. If so, where do recreational discussions of an advanced nature go?

[RoatanMan]

OK, there are three pieces to this posting; this thread here in Advanced Scuba Discussions (for divers who do feel they are advanced divers), a thread in Basic Scuba Discussions (for divers who don't feel they are advanced divers) and a thread in Technical Diving Specialties (for divers who make technical dives).

So, please answer the question in the proper forum; the question is slightly different in each different forum; this question is for those who are advanced divers (<50 dives :shakehead:).




So first, you're asking people who can't yet know,
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd106/Doc_Adelman/group images/IMG_2937_2.jpg
and then those who have the patch and might think they know,
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd106/Doc_Adelman/group images/Picture76.png
and finally those who know they know.
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd106/Doc_Adelman/group images/images-15.jpghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd106/Doc_Adelman/group images/Picture41-2.png

It is a SCUBA Board, not an English Semantics Board.

Advanced Diving: Is any new or unmastered situation experienced by a diver. Multiple such stimuli can result in "task loading". (See other topic beaten to death on :sblogo:)

[Thalassamania]

Frankly I have never considered the question and now that I do I think it has no meaning what-so-ever. I have never thought of myself as an "advanced" diver, though I expect that I did wake up one morning and find that the rest of the world thought me an expert, and after some years of that I learned to go along, if just out of habit.

[TSandM]

I don't think of myself as an advanced diver. I do think of myself as an experienced diver, in the environments where I have a lot of experience. In novel environments, I can be awfully close to a beginner again.

I think advanced TOPICS are the ones that go beyond the basic mechanics of executing uncomplicated dives. Beyond basic buoyancy and stability in the water, basic navigation, safety stops and "back on the boat with 500 psi".

[beautybelow]

To quote Lefty Kreh, who is undoubtably an expert in his field as well as many other things:

"An X spurt is an unknown object that squirts out a liquid when put under pressure"

[DevonDiver]

Ex = Former, has been, no longer
Spurt = A drip under pressure.

[lmorin]

I don't think of myself as an advanced diver. I do think of myself as an experienced diver, in the environments where I have a lot of experience. In novel environments, I can be awfully close to a beginner again.

I think advanced TOPICS are the ones that go beyond the basic mechanics of executing uncomplicated dives. Beyond basic buoyancy and stability in the water, basic navigation, safety stops and "back on the boat with 500 psi".

I like this classification and terminology.

[Jax]

I think these questions will reveal some perspective and attitudes if they are allowed to develop. After all, we have some that call themselves advanced because they dive deep on air, yet there are others that disagree.

Tapatalk by Droid

[Colliam7]

OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" Although 'when' could be a point in time, or 'when' could be a point in performance, I will use only the latter criterion. For me, feeling that I was an 'advanced' diver did not come until I felt that I could absolutely control my position in the vertical water column, and in the horizontal plane. So, it was a matter of both a) buoyancy control and trim conrol, as well as b) propulsion techniques.

Definitely, a particular level of comfort was associated with that feeling, a (self-perceived) ability to keep my head in stressful situations was associated with that feeling, a certain ability to analyze problems was associated with that feeling, etc., etc. (there are a number of additional attributes). But, when I reached the point that I felt I was in reasonable control of my underwater position, which didn't occur until well after my 250th dive, I felt I had reached a point to consider myself 'advanced'. At the same time, I am sensitive to an interesting distinction that TS&M raised - 'advanced' vs 'experienced'. I slightly lean toward 'advanced' but appreciate the subtle differentiation.

[elan]

For me one would be advanced when they understand what dives are above their abilities and do not attempt to do them.

[Adobo]

I am also having a tough time wrapping my head around the question.

Consider an alternate question. What do I consider to be an advanced driver?
- Someone who has been driving for 25 years. So from this perspective, maybe.
- What if this person hasn't been instructed on driving cars in race tracks? With my many years of driving around, he could probably take an SUV to a race track and drive it really fast and not have an accident. Maybe the trained racers will tell him that he is foolish for driving on race track with the wrong equipment with insufficient training. Even the properly trained and equipped teenage racer who has only had a driver's license for a couple of years might consider me foolish. (And he would probably be right.) So from this perspective, maybe not.
- But even if he had training in racing cars, what if he doesn't have training in driving commercials vehicles - buses, big rigs, whatever. So even if he had both of the above, still maybe not.
- But even if he had all that training and experience listed above, he still probably would struggle to drive in the streets of Ho Chi Minh city. Ref: Part 2 of 3D Driving in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsjyge6MngQ)

A person can tell you what he has been trained to do and what he has experience doing.
- basic training in driving small personal vehicles.
- driving for 25 years.
- driven in sun, rain, sleet, snow and ice.
- clean driving record.
- etc

Similarly, a diver can produce a list of dive training and experience.

However, i think the question of what is an advanced diver (and what is an advanced driver) is too ambiguous. Any answer given, provided that caveats were provided, would probably be a decent answer.

[Hank49]

I considered myself kind of advanced a few years ago living here, after having been an instructor for about 6 years and certified for 12 or so.
I have my own boat, compressor, tanks and gear and more than just occasionally, I take out friends from the mainland US or guests of the owner of the farm...for a dive.
There was no shop backing me up. The people were dependent on my boat and my boating skills to get us out safely, dive and come home. Minimum travel was 14 miles to the reef. I had to determine the conditions and decide if we should even go, then assess the conditions at the sites and figure out by talking to them how they could dive....having never seen them in the water, and conduct a safe, fun dive.
Somewhere along in these experiences I realized how little many "divers" really know and that compared to them I was pretty much a badass expert.
Yesterday I took some guys "snorkeling" who wanted to try free dive spearfishing. Oh brother....Rough seas and strong current at the spot....nothing for experienced watermen but I felt like a mother hen keeping these two guys in line. When you compare skills developed after 34 years of surfing, body surfing, diving and free dive spearfishing, the skill level becomes very apparent when you're in the water with some total newbs to the sea.

[halemanō]

Why post in a thread you don't feel applies to you?

There are plenty of threads on ScubaBoard! Do all threads on ScubaBoard have to have approval from the "higher ups" to be worthy of existence.

Just don't post in this thread if you do not think it applies at all to you, your world or your views!

:shakehead:

[Hank49]

I don't understand this post Halemano. Are you referring to me? I thought I pretty much followed the guidelines you laid on in the op.

[Jim Lapenta]

PADI said I was in August of 2004. Right after my instructor took me on a few dives beyond basic OW limits, showed me how to use a lift bag, how navigate a square and triangle, and how to open a combination lock at 90 feet. Then I found Scubaboard and realized I didn't know shiite. And while he never actually told me I was an advanced diver I was never told I was not. That is the important thing. It was marketed to me as an advanced course yet gave me little in the way of skills that are used on what are commonly considered "advanced dives". I thought I was an advanced diver when I did my very first ocean dive into the well deck of the Spiegel Grove with millpond like conditions. Then five days later did the same dive which was also dive number 100 for me in a ripping current.

But I did these dives on a single al80.

Was I an advanced diver or just a stupid one. I did not plan those dives with as much care as I do a shallow solo dive in our local quarry because I did not know to. I do consider myself experienced. Ocean - both coasts, Bonaire, Jamaica, Puerto Rico. Fresh in the great lakes to 160 feet in 38 degree water, with mixed gas and deco, St Lawrence wrecks, lots of quarry and lake dives, but now my definition of advanced has changed. As it always does once I reach a new level.

The Doria is still where advanced divers go, as is the Empress of Ireland. But while 150 feet in Lake Erie may be an advanced dive, it's not AS ADVANCED as it once was for me. And I'm not as advanced as the people I look up to in Scuba. I kinda hope I never am as that will take some of the fun away. As it is there is always something new in my areas of interest where scuba is concerned to shoot for. That is I guess what advanced really is for me. It is not being content with the knowledge I have now. I always want more. An advanced diver to me is always looking for that next challenge and next level of knowledge.

[halemanō]

I don't think of myself as an advanced diver. I do think of myself as an experienced diver, in the environments where I have a lot of experience. In novel environments, I can be awfully close to a beginner again.

I think advanced TOPICS are the ones that go beyond the basic mechanics of executing uncomplicated dives. Beyond basic buoyancy and stability in the water, basic navigation, safety stops and "back on the boat with 500 psi".

Thank you for your participation!

Was there ever a time when you did think you were an advanced diver?

:coffee:

[halemanō]

For me one would be advanced when they understand what dives are above their abilities and do not attempt to do them.

There were two simple questions in the OP ...


OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

The one that most applies to you, according to your limited "profile", is ...

When did you think you were an advanced diver?

I have no problem with you also answering the other question ...

When do you "now" think you were advanced?

[halemanō]

I am also having a tough time wrapping my head around the question.


OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

OK, here are the cliff notes ...

The one that most applies to you, according to your limited "profile", is ...

When did you think you were an advanced diver?

I have no problem with you also answering the other question ...

When do you "now" think you were advanced?

[halemanō]

I don't understand this post Halemano. Are you referring to me? I thought I pretty much followed the guidelines you laid on in the op.

No Hank, that post has nothing to do with you. It only applies to posters who have expressed their opinion that the thread and topic are not worthy.

I jumped on a "top of the page" location; your last post just happened to be the bottom of the previous page.

:dontknow:

[halemanō]

... I thought I was an advanced diver when I did my very first ocean dive into the well deck of the Spiegel Grove with millpond like conditions. Then five days later did the same dive which was also dive number 100 for me in a ripping current.

But I did these dives on a single al80.

...

but now my definition of advanced has changed. As it always does once I reach a new level.

Thank you for the honest attempt to participate Jim, but I do have to ask you whether you make Tech dives?


NAUI tech 1- Intro to tech and Heliotrox Aug 07


... a thread in Technical Diving Specialties (for divers who make technical dives).

[freewillie]

I'm going to chime in here, as I just got chased out of the Basic Scuba section. I currently just certified as an AOW diver in October. I still have not made a dive yet with my new "certification." I was in the Basic Scuba section because even with my new title still difficult to think of myself as "advanced."

I now have official training in Peak Performance Buoyancy, Underwater Navigation, Deep Diving, Night Diving and Wreck Diving. I completed all 5 specialties under the auspicices of PADI dive training. I'm not that sure that makes me "advanced."

The dive boat Lois Ann in San Diego uses an "experience" guidline for categorizing their dives. You need 25 dives or less a beginner, 30+ dives for intermediate, and 50+ dives as experienced. The specifically state that due to watering down of requirements to have 'advanced' certification they do not ask for AOW or equivalent ratings. They would prefer a basic OW diver with 50+ cold water dives than an AOW diver only 20 dives.

For me, I'm somewhere in between intermediate and experienced. But if I was signing up at a dive shop for dives I would not hesitate to sign up for the advance rated dives unless they were very technical in nature. ie deeper than 120 feet with strong currents and poor viz. That being said I would do it if I was with a really experienced diver who I had buddied with before.

Guess by default that makes me advanced.

[NWGratefulDiver]

I'm going to chime in here, as I just got chased out of the Basic Scuba section.

Just the concept of someone "chasing" you out of a forum is disturbing.

As someone who teaches at a recreational level, I would not consider someone at your experience level to be an "advanced" diver. I would consider you to be a basic diver who has taken more than just the entry level class ... but with insufficient diving experience to do advanced dives.

Would you consider yourself ready yet to do Farnsworth Bank on a less than perfect conditions day?

If someone with less than 50 dives isn't a "Basic" diver ... who is?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[Jim Lapenta]

I do make tech dives but chose to answer regarding the advanced question. As it appears did Bob and Lynne who both do caves which are considered tech dives. I was not discussing my tech dives. I will do that in the tech forum. That I list my tech certs and Bob and Lynne do not disqualifies me even though I restricted my answers to the topic seems kinda over the top.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk

[Adobo]

OK, here are the cliff notes ...The one that most applies to you, according to your limited "profile", is ...When did you think you were an advanced diver?I have no problem with you also answering the other question ...When do you "now" think you were advanced?

Hmm... this presumes that I think that I am an advanced diver. I went to go post into the Basic Forum since I do not consider myself as advanced but in the equivalent thread in that forum, I saw this:



OK you basic scuba divers; looking into your future, what do you think would earn you the title "advanced diver?"

So, please answer the question in the proper forum; the question is slightly different in each different forum; this question is for those who have not got there yet (100+ dives http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/images/smilies/More%20Smiles/nonononono.gif).




Since I have >100dives and I participate in what some call "technical" dives, I guess I am just S.O.L.

[RoatanMan]

How do experienced divers define "What is Advanced Diving?"



.....OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?"...... when do you now think you were "advanced?"

The dictionary tells us: Advanced Diver ≠ Advanced Diving

Two totally different definitions and concepts... lumped together? Not by me.

Three totally different questions.

Words are all we have on the message board, they are indeed important.
This is a thread that is arguing three different topics, all refernced in the op.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd106/Doc_Adelman/group images/Picture15-1.png

[NWGratefulDiver]

I do make tech dives but chose to answer regarding the advanced question. As it appears did Bob and Lynne who both do caves which are considered tech dives. I was not discussing my tech dives. I will do that in the tech forum. That I list my tech certs and Bob and Lynne do not disqualifies me even though I restricted my answers to the topic seems kinda over the top.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk
Actually I haven't attempted to answer the question ... because I don't think the question is relevent to how I think about diving.

My participation here was strictly to help provide freewillie with some criteria by which he could determine whether or not he considers himself an advanced diver. Since he got chased out of the Basic forum, I'm thinking he probably felt that was the appropriate place to post, initially ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[RoatanMan]

Actually I haven't attempted to answer the question ... because I don't think the question is relevent to how I think about diving. ....Since he got chased out of the Basic forum, I'm thinking he probably felt that was the appropriate place to post, initially ...

You'll know it's acceptable if your post gets "liked". (not as good as licked, but there you go)

[freewillie]

Just the concept of someone "chasing" you out of a forum is disturbing.

As someone who teaches at a recreational level, I would not consider someone at your experience level to be an "advanced" diver. I would consider you to be a basic diver who has taken more than just the entry level class ... but with insufficient diving experience to do advanced dives.

Would you consider yourself ready yet to do Farnsworth Bank on a less than perfect conditions day?

If someone with less than 50 dives isn't a "Basic" diver ... who is?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Maybe "chased" was a poor choice of words.

Halemano has posted the same question in three different forums. The Basic Scuba section the divers are answering from a perspective of not having made advanced dives. Here you are answering from a perspective having made advance dives and asked when did you feel like you were advanced?

As Bob points out, I'm essentially an OW diver who just completed a few courses in Peak Performance Buoyancy, Underwater Navigation, Wreck diving, Deep Diving, and Night Dive. Does that make me an advanced diver? Not sure, but I do have AOW status.

As for my diving experience most of my dives are in cold water from the shore. Full 7 mm wetsuit, hood, gloves, booties, lots of weight. I have been in very challenging conditions including 5-6 foot waves, strong surge, and very poor viz. Not the most fun for a dive, but at least now I have the experience of these conditions. (Experience now tells me thumb the dive and come back when conditions are more enjoyable.) I've been inadvertantly separated from the dive group and had to find my way back without a guide. Fortunately I took a compass reading and knew the heading to get back to shore.

Are we judging our skills based on simple number of dives? What if 50 dives are all in warm water, no wetsuit, off a boat, and guided by a DM. Does that mean at 51 dives you are now advanced, can navigate independently, enter/exit a shore dive with all the gear/weight without getting tumbled?

Maybe we should be looking at what we learn with each dive, the skills we worked on, and how those skills improved with each challenge.

As to Halemano's question, I'm and "intermediate" diver. My skills are definitely above basic but I need a few more dives to truly say I'm advanced.

[freewillie]

Just a clarification on the Basic forum. As per previous post I would not quite call myself an advance diver here.

When searching for dive boats and their dive sites, they will generally rate a dive site as beginner or advanced. The advanced dives are generally deeper, may have poor viz, and are subjected to stronger currents.

After AOW training and 40 logged dives I feel my skills are above "basic." I can descend/ascend without a line, use my compass for navigation, have adequate control of my buoyancy where I can do my safety stop without having to hold onto the achor line or hang line within a 1-2 foot window. If I was reserving a spot in a dive boat, I don't think it's a stretch to label myself an advanced diver. However, given the rules of Halemano's post in the Basic Scuba section it was for beginner divers. If I was going to say I feel comfortable with more advanced dives the correct forum was here in Advance Scuba section.

[halemanō]

I'm going to chime in here, as I just got chased out of the Basic Scuba section.
Just the concept of someone "chasing" you out of a forum is disturbing.

Bob, your frequent "simple word" comprehension problem is now affecting innocent posters :shocked:

freewillie typed "section" and you immediately changed it to "forum" and got all disturbed. :shakehead:

Not only that but less than 2 hours after freewillie typed "section" you have alread spread your untruth twice! :no:


Since he got chased out of the Basic forum,

Each of the OP's of this posting, each "section" of this posting, has instructions as to where a participant should participate...


...this thread here in Basic Scuba Discussions (is) for divers who don't feel they are advanced divers)

...(emphasis and color added)

So, please answer the question in the proper forum; the question is slightly different in each different forum; this question is for those who have not got there yet (100+ dives :no:).


After I "liked" freewillie's post, I asked ...


So freewillie, you think your pretty close?


I would say I'm there! :D

...

Well freewillie, not to be too picky but if you do think you are an advanced diver, you posted in the wrong thread.

:dontknow:

Please quit spreading lies Bob!

I "just" pointed out that according to the OP's, freewillie had posted in the wrong thread

Bob evidently turns that into "halemano chased a poor basic diver out of the Basic Scuba Discussions forum," perhaps due to some sub-conscious "demonize halemano fixation."

:dontknow:

[Thalassamania]

I'm going to do something here that I rarely do, that is explicitly put on by Board Guide hat.

There are a few points that I'd like to make:

Halemano asked that people restrict themselves to responding according to certain criteria. This is done every now and again, and quite often people ignore the criteria, and for that matter the questions, but stay close enough to the theme to not really qualify for being off topic.

There is not a whole lot the we can expect of the Mods in this sort of a circumstance, even if it were a legitimate thing to police, one such thread (not to mention three) would consume a huge amount of what is, in reality, volunteer time.

I don't think that we want to set a precedent that a member should be restricted from providing input on any forum to which they have access...especially if it isn't against TOS. Where the Mods to try to do that here eventually communication will break down as more and more threads start with explicit instructions like 'Former University Diving Safety Officers who live in Hawaii, whose user names begin with the letter T should not comment in the thread. Now that would make me very grumpy.

So try to show Halemano's requests some respect and, hopefully, he will understand that discussions often slip off into alternate and unplanned directions. I think that is one of the beauties of ScubaBoard.

[halemanō]

I completely understand freewillie's predicament; he is right on one of the dividing lines.

When freewillie was "free" to express himself among his peers (in the Basic Scuba Discussion forum) he "smilingly" replied ...


I would say I'm there! :D

Now, after these threads have had a certain "pressure" placed on them, by many popular advanced diving members of ScubaBoard, among a peer set he is almost a part of, freewillie is now looking back on his typing of this morning ...

kind of a "one day version" of the secondary question regarding ~1000 dives or more.

:dontknow:

[halemanō]

I'm going to do something here that I rarely do, that is explicitly put on by Board Guide hat

There are a few points that I'd like to make:

Halemano asked that people restrict themselves to responding according to certain criteria. This is done every now and again, and quite often people ignore the criteria, and for that matter the questions, but stay close enough to the theme to not really qualify for being off topic.

There is not a whole lot the we can expect of the Mods in this sort of a circumstance, even if it were a legitimate thing to police, one such thread (not to mention three) would consume a huge amount of what is, in reality, volunteer time.

I don't think that we want to set a precedent that a member should be restricted from providing input on any forum to which they have access...especially if it isn't against TOS. Where the Mods to try to do that here eventually communication will break down as more and more threads start with explicit instructions like 'Former University Diving Safety Officers who live in Hawaii, whose user names begin with the letter T should not comment in the thread. Now that would make me very grumpy.

So try to show Halemano's requests some respect and, hopefully, he will understand that discussions often slip off into alternate and unplanned directions. I think that is one of the beauties of ScubaBoard.
Here's to "beautiful" alternate and unplanned directions! :thumbs_up:

[*dave*]

I never really thought about it, but I suppose I do consider myself an advanced diver. I can only base that assessment on how my skills, knowledge and experience compare to other divers which I would expect to be advanced. Master Instructor, DCSI, IT, IC are all ratings which would ideally be held by advanced divers.

"Advanced" is a relative term these days, it seems.

[freewillie]

After having jumped back and forth between beginner Basic Scuba Discussions and Advanced Scuba Discussions I'm not quite sure where I should be responding. Basic Scuba criteria was 100+ dives need to be in Advance. I'm clearly not there. But, here cut off was <50 but now I'm thinking I know my skills are beyond basic but not advanced.

My gut reaction is I'm going to call myself and "advanced" diver for the following reason: if I was to sign up for a dive boat I would feel comfortable in some of the advance rated dive spots. I would feel comfortable in 120 feet water, or conversely would feel comfortable on a wall with no bottom. I've had to deal with less than ideal conditions and have learned from those experiences. I can hold my position on a safety stop without holding the line unless there is a current. I can plan my dive, dive my plan, use a compass underwater navigation, stay with my buddy in low viz and in less than ideal conditions. So, if the dive site is not beginner and requires "advanced" skills I do feel like I would not be out of place. I know might be naive of me but that's why I'm posting here.

The interesting thing is in Basic Scuba Discussions many of the divers don't have as many dives, may not have gone 100 feet, still fin with their hands to maintain position. All of the above would seem "advanced." But here, many of you are well over 100+ dives with some even 1000+. You must be looking at me with some sort of "what is this guy this guy smoking and does he really think that much of his skills?"

So, back to number of dives. Do we log our dives to say we have "x" dives and then we magically cross the thresholds from newbie to beginner to advanced to tech? Some of us get the skills on the first dive, some of us require multiple dives to master the same skill. I've noticed that some have included advanced tech diving like cave diving and wreck penetration skills in their definition of general advanced diving. I guess that is the point of this thread, to assess the wide range of opinions as to what the threshold is that separates basic from advanced.

[NWGratefulDiver]

Bob evidently turns that into "halemano chased a poor basic diver out of the Basic Scuba Discussions forum," perhaps due to some sub-conscious "demonize halemano fixation.":dontknow:
Actually, I never mentioned your name at all ... nor even implied it. I responded to what the man wrote ... and attempted to give him some criteria to work with.

So who's spreading lies? And who's being the bully? I think it's you.


So, please answer the question in the proper forum; the question is slightly different in each different forum; this question is for those who have not got there yet (100+ dives):no:
By your own criteria ... at less than 50 dives, he has not got there yet ...

I truly don't understand your penchant for rudeness and name-calling.

But if you'll stop attacking me, I'll stop responding to your unpleasantness ... there really are more constructive ways to communicate with people.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[vladimir]

I did wake up one morning and find that the rest of the world thought me an expert, and after some years of that I learned to go along, if just out of habit.Does anyone else think that it probably took Thal less than "some years" to think of himself as an expert, and that there was no great internal struggle involved?

:D

[AfterDark]

I don’t know what an advanced diver is. After almost 40 years and almost 2000 dives in cold, warm, clear, murky, deep, calm and rough water from shore and boats; spearfishing, ice, night, solo, wreck including penetration and deco diving I call myself an experienced and confident diver. That didn’t just happen it is a long evolution that continues to this day.

[Jax]

So, back to number of dives. Do we log our dives to say we have "x" dives and then we magically cross the thresholds from newbie to beginner to advanced to tech? Some of us get the skills on the first dive, some of us require multiple dives to master the same skill. I've noticed that some have included advanced tech diving like cave diving and wreck penetration skills in their definition of general advanced diving. I guess that is the point of this thread, to assess the wide range of opinions as to what the threshold is that separates basic from advanced.

The problem with logged dives is that the dive community is looking for some way to classify the skills of people they don't know.

Showing one's logbook would make sense, but just listing the amount of dives can be misleading.

Let's say someone took course after course, and the majority of his/her dives were in training. So, the diver has 200 dives, but the experience is "a mile wide and an inch deep".

On the opposite extreme, is the diver that has 200 dives in the local quarry. In this case, the diver's experience is "an inch wide and a mile deep".

IMO, if a diver with 200 dives jumps into a drysuit for the first time, s/he just went back to basic beginner.


Now, I know of a diver that called himself a tech diver, because he dove doubles and had a tech class. Yet, when his mask was knocked off by a newbie, he panicked. The ascent was from shallow, Thank God. I would not call this diver advanced, simply because he didn't practice the basics. He had in excess of 200 dives, tho.

[gsk3]

To answer the question, I don't consider myself "Advanced" at all, and think the title's somewhat meaningless. I'm comfortable doing the dives I do. In other contexts, I accept that I may be surprised by things I've never experienced. Perfect vis, the few times I've experienced it, makes me a bit uncomfortable, for instance--I'm just used to having particulates around to judge motion.


Consider an alternate question. What do I consider to be an advanced driver?
- Someone who has been driving for 25 years. So from this perspective, maybe.
- What if this person hasn't been instructed on driving cars in race tracks? With my many years of driving around, he could probably take an SUV to a race track and drive it really fast and not have an accident. Maybe the trained racers will tell him that he is foolish for driving on race track with the wrong equipment with insufficient training. Even the properly trained and equipped teenage racer who has only had a driver's license for a couple of years might consider me foolish. (And he would probably be right.) So from this perspective, maybe not.
- But even if he had training in racing cars, what if he doesn't have training in driving commercials vehicles - buses, big rigs, whatever. So even if he had both of the above, still maybe not.
- But even if he had all that training and experience listed above, he still probably would struggle to drive in the streets of Ho Chi Minh city. Ref: Part 2 of 3D Driving in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsjyge6MngQ)

I think the driver analogy makes the context-dependence of "advanced" pretty clear (a dependence which Lynne also illustrated nicely). Continuing the analogy, there's a difference between the circumstances/goals of a drive, the means by which those goals are attained, and the context-specific experience of the driver.

If the goal is to drive 120mph around a banked racetrack, the means could be an SUV, a race car, or an (unloaded) semi. The driver's past experience could be minimal (a 16-year-old kid who's rapidly become proficient in handling their Honda Civic), extensive in this context (race car driver), or extensive in another context (commercial driver).

Now mix and match and decide who's safest: 16-year-old in the race car? Commercial driver in the semi? Commercial driver in the race car?

To me, the clear answer is that the race car driver in the race car is the safest. After that, I'd argue the commercial driver in the race car is much safer than the commercial driver in the semi. Any relevance to the deep air or "non-technical deep advanced recreational diver" debate is entirely coincidental--remember folks, this is about driving.

And that's before nature throws in any complications (all of a sudden a birthday party unleashes hundreds of go-karts onto the track!).

This thread seems to be about separating out "advanced" (e.g. race car driver and commercial driver) from "beginner" (16-year-old), but it's asking people to self-report (e.g. the 16-year-old would say they're advanced too) and assuming there's such a thing as context-independent "advanced." I think there's some skills transfer across categories, but part of being "advanced" is recognizing when you need to back it off a few notches--either because you haven't done those dives in a while, because you're not in the physical shape you need to be, or because it's a new context for you. In short, it's less about skills than wisdom. Driving is extensively studied, and in general what 16-year-olds lack is not the ability to quickly and precisely jerk the steering wheel but the judgment to not get behind the wheel in the first place, not drive too fast for the road conditions, and not equate unnecessary risk with fun.

[DCBC]

OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

If I understand the question correctly...

I believe I considered myself to be an "advanced diver" when I:

- did not feel any apprehension using my equipment underwater;
- clearly understood my safety envelope and recognized the importance of diving within it;
- could look at a dive site and know when conditions dictated me to walk away;
- could comfortably thumb a dive when conditions warranted (before it was too late);
- could properly control my buoyancy;
- could accurately plan a dive and project my gas consumption (in consideration of planned duration, depth and diving conditions);
- was exposed to a number of diving environments and conditions (ocean, fresh water, altitude, overheads, waves/currents, poor visibility).

This is not to say that someone who hasn't met these conditions isn't an "advanced diver." It's just that I considered myself to be an advanced diver when these conditions had been met. It wasn't a line in the sand that I could prepare for, rather a realization that was made after the fact. I have never thought that an "advanced diver" was achieved through a specified number of dives, or any recreational training program.

[DiveNav]

.......OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?"........
I became an Advanced Virtual Diver when I successfully dove "The Choke" (max depth 633ft, using a rebreather with 3 diluents).
In real life .... I just try to enjoy my dives and - more important - come back uninjured.

Alberto (aka eDiver)

[Jax]

:lol:

[DivemasterDennis]

I'll give to the OP a direct answer to his simple question: An advanced diver is one who has the equipment knowledge, dive skills, and the experience to independently plan and carry out a safe recreational dive without professional supervision or coaching. That definition does not refer to a certain class or experience level- it is tied to competence. There are divers who choose to limit their diving to escorted dives, or independent diving under very controlled conditions, and that's just fine. Other divers race from one certification course to another without any "real diving" experience, and have a certification that is not always descriptive of their competence level. I'll stick with my definition. The skills that an advanced diver has mastered include buoyancy control, of course, AND navigation.
DivemasterDennis

[halemanō]

I'll give to the OP a direct answer to his simple question: An advanced diver is one who has the equipment knowledge, dive skills, and the experience to independently plan and carry out a safe recreational dive without professional supervision or coaching. That definition does not refer to a certain class or experience level- it is tied to competence. There are divers who choose to limit their diving to escorted dives, or independent diving under very controlled conditions, and that's just fine. Other divers race from one certification course to another without any "real diving" experience, and have a certification that is not always descriptive of their competence level. I'll stick with my definition. The skills that an advanced diver has mastered include buoyancy control, of course, AND navigation.
DivemasterDennis
I think the problem here is that I thought participants would read the OP. :shakehead:

I am still learning how to word thread titles. :D

The current title of this thread is a Moderator's attempt to help me with my lacking original title. :dontknow:

DivemasterDennis seems to me to be just answering the title of the thread and not the actual questions in the OP. :coffee:


OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

[freewillie]

To answer the question, I felt like an advanced diver (for the reasons I previously mentioned) during my deep dive/wreck dive certification.

I was a little nervous just before the deep dive. We were going to the HMS Yukon in San Diego which is at 100 ft on the bottom. We did locks and alphabetical sorting letters in the parking lot before boarding the dive boat. At the dive site I was able to control my buoyancy all the way down. At 100 ft on bottom did my lock, was handing it back to my instructor before he could get the letters and slate out of his bag. Took few deep breaths, we checked our SPG's to see how much faster air consumption is at depth. After completing tasks then swam around the wreck until time to surface. Original dive plan was for me to come up holding the guide line, hold safety stop, then surface. Due to crowding on the line I elected to free ascend using the line as visual reference. I apologized to my instructor for not following our plan, but he told me no worries, my buoyancy was fine during the dive.

We then did another dive on the Yukon as the wreck dive. I found it was more like a 'free' dive even though was technically part of checkout dive for AOW certification. I remember feeling completely relaxed even on deeper portions of the dive. My biggest concern was more adjusting for a little extra Weight I added to compensate for new vest. Turned out felt just little heavy with extra 2 lbs.

Third dive of the trip was just for fun, no skills. Different dive site at the Ruby E at 85 ft. Shed the 2lbs felt better with the weights. We just enjoyed the dive, saw lots of colorful nudibranchs. I remember thinking I could totally do this if I returned without my instructor.

Having officially completed AOW training on that trip, I actually felt like an advanced diver. Here on SB we keep saying that despite being a complete noob, if you just complete basic OW training you should still be able to plan your dive and dive your plan. If we took you out to an appropriate dive site you should be able to dive without anyone else holding your hand. Why not the same for an advanced diver who just completed AOW training?

OK, I know, I'm really just a basic OW diver with AOW skills. So now the real fun begins. To get more dives so instead of an "advanced" diver I'll be an "experienced" diver with AOW training!

[Jill from Phoenix]

I like this game - I wanna play...

I felt I was an advanced diver after 50-60 dives, I had been a few places, had a few buddies, had a few adventures and I was like the ambassador of scuba to all my friends trying to talk them into scuba.

I'm not sure if my diving progressed after the first 50 dives ... :) jk. Of course the milestones don't stop, but when I was guiding divers on vacation I always felt they were going to be pretty advanced even before diving with them if they had at least 50-100 dives and had been diving for a number years or had a cert past basic level. Sometimes, divers had much less than that with an unexplainable comfort in the water and problem solving instinct and sometimes they had 500 dives and I was like who let you get away with a kick like that....oh god, kick further over there. :) jk

[Rhone Man]

I dived from a very early age, and I never really gave much thought to it in the early days. I think I was actually doing the AOW course (probably had about 100 dives by this time - I used to haul tanks in exchange for free diving), and my instructor said to me half way through the course: "Don't let it go to your head, but you're a hell of a good diver." That was the first time I had ever really thought about whether I was any good or not rather than just having fun.

That said, I did let it go to my head, combined with the usual rashness that 15 year olds are known for meant that I started to get into some sticky spots after that.

[ozzydamo]

The simplified PADI answer is below 18m, but not deeper then 30m unless you've done the "deep" specialty.

[Rhone Man]

You go out on a liveaboard and find that you are more competent than most of your fellow divers, so you figure you're "advanced."

It's funny. I usually think of myself as an advanced diver. But I remember when I was on a liveaboard in Truk Lagoon admiring some of the skills of the divers around me and thinking: "Damn, some of these guys (and girls) are really good!"

[Searcaigh]

I considered myself advanced when I had become a Rescue Diver with around 180 dives, which also included prior to PADI courses some commercial diving experience in the UK.

In retrospect having experience in many more dive locations, varied dive conditions etc., the reality is probably more like when I had between 500-600 dives.

[DivemasterDennis]

Fair enough. I'll finish answering the question. I considered myself an advanced diver when I could do what I wrote in my post above: plan and carry out a recreational dive safely, and have fun, with no other supervision or monitoring other than by me and my similarly credentialed buddy. I hit that point after about 50 open water dives not including any certification training dives. That was after I did my advanced open water class. It took applying what had been learned there, and in other experiences, for a bit before I felt like I was truly "advanced." Now many hundreds of dives later, I have better skills, greater competence, and higher credentials, but the benchmark is the same- when could I just "go diving" safely and have fun without needing (or wanting) some other leader or planner along.
DivemasterDennis

[DaleC]

I suppose I may have thought of myself as an advanced diver at some point in the past when I still believed that diving involved some sort of linear progression ie. non diver, beginner, advanced, technical... or perhaps it was when I consistently found myself suited up before everyone else and sitting around waiting. Now of course, I am usually the one forgetting something at home and/or try to suit up last so I don't cook as much :)

These days I see diving as a cyclical experience and view my desired position more as one of competency.

A non diver who just takes a course but dives rarely does not stay in the exposure cycle long enough to gain competency, though they are certified. A diver who stays may; if they apply themselves. A recreational diver who takes a technical course also does not cycle long enough to gain competency; they have only expanded their learning circle to envelope the experience once or twice.

I'm a little old school I suppose and see it as serving an apprenticeship of sorts. My goal is to become a [-]tradesman[/-] diver in the traditional sense of being able to do a lot with a few tools, instead a few specialties with a lot of tools.

Gad, I still dive air most of the time - because I can.

but not deep.

because that's dangerous.

[halemanō]

The simplified PADI answer is below 18m, but not deeper then 30m unless you've done the "deep" specialty.

Would have been nice if you had read any of the OP's so you might sound like you have a clue what's going on in this thread.

:dontknow:

[Jax]

I think the problem here is that I thought participants would read. [-]the OP. :shakehead:

I am still learning how to word thread titles. :D

The current title of this thread is a Moderator's attempt to help me with my lacking original title. :dontknow:

DivemasterDennis seems to me to be just answering the title of the thread and not the actual questions in the OP. [/-]:coffee:




Fixed that for ya! :thumb:

[DaleC]

Listen mister: Trying to understand what you say gets in the way of what I want to tell you!

[DevonDiver]

Would have been nice if you had read any of the OP's so you might sound like you have a clue what's going on in this thread.

:dontknow:

He fits your experience pre-requisites and stated his opinion. Is that not allowed in [-]Scuba[/-]HalemanoBoard?

[DaleC]

Yes he gave his opinion... but it had nothing to do with the question.

Question: looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

Answer: The simplified PADI answer is below 18m, but not deeper then 30m unless you've done the "deep" specialty.

[DevonDiver]

I interpret it to mean that the man believes he reached 'Advanced' when his training/diving reflected the PADI terminology for AOW diving. i.e. beyond OW/18m and up to the limit of AOW/30m.

[Centrals]

I had done about 1,700.00 dives including few hundred on deco dives.
But I never dive dry or inside a cave. I never had any serious equipment failure under water. I never had to rescue anyone under water before. I never had......and the list is pretty long!!!
So what kind of diver am I or does it matter?

Advanced, experienced, technical etc etc have no really definition/meaning.
Do not blind by your own EGO.
Scuba diving is a sport to enjoy and let stay this way.

[DevonDiver]

Centrals... don't bait Halemano.... you know you're not allowed to answer that question here.... over to the Technical Diving forum with you.... chop chop!

[DaleC]

Hummm. Doesn't sound like he's the one doing the baiting. With enough practice one could become a master at it.

[DevonDiver]

Hummm. Doesn't sound like he's the one doing the baiting. With enough practice one could become a master at it.

http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/3b/3ba3effb_funny-celebrity-pictures-i-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

[BDSC]

I never really considered myself to be an advanced diver until I found ScubaBoard and realized that I have planned my own dives, completed such dives, have become pretty darn proficient in my buoyancy control, have helped a stressed buddy out during a dive, have done some solo diving, and have done several deeper dives below 130 ft. all while wearing a JACKET BC with an AIR II.

[Thalassamania]

An insight on the question from Glen Egstrom in 1996:

Basic diver training courses have been redefined according to the specific training organizations' philosophies. They are generally in agreement with the Recreational Scuba Training Council (RSTC) guidelines but are not focused upon the complexities of the various skills. Modular approaches are beginning to have an impact on instruction but the emphasis on problem solving found in many earlier courses has been relegated to advanced experiences.

[*dave*]

You're going to give Haleamano an aneurism with a post like this.


An insight on the question from Glen Egstrom in 1996:

Basic diver training courses have been redefined according to the specific training organizations' philosophies. They are generally in agreement with the Recreational Scuba Training Council (RSTC) guidelines but are not focused upon the complexities of the various skills. Modular approaches are beginning to have an impact on instruction but the emphasis on problem solving found in many earlier courses has been relegated to advanced experiences.

[Thalassamania]

Sorry, I'm starting work on a new project and (as usual) I do a review of the old literature. Be prepared for a number of such tidbits.

[NWGratefulDiver]

You're going to give Haleamano an aneurism with a post like this.


... so consider this an invitation to go talk about it in this thread (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/404129-what-makes-someone-advanced-scuba-diver.html) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[BDSC]

... so consider this an invitation to go talk about it in this thread (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/404129-what-makes-someone-advanced-scuba-diver.html) ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob is a brutal guy!

[NWGratefulDiver]

Bob is a brutal guy!
Not really ... what I'm trying to do is give those who are having a hard time staying within Hale's criteria a place to express themselves ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

[ozzydamo]

I have just tipped over 200dives, lots of them solo in my own boat along way from shore with no crew onboard(60kms), I never have felt like I was advanced, I have always had a little anxiety, I wish it never leaves me or I will quit this scene.
Sometimes I feel like a sea otter, but never "advanced!"
Just a man in the water, seduced by her beauty.
I have been a free diver for 25 years prior to scuba diving, I loved the Aquaman, flipper and marineboy on TV!
0.0

[marcopalla]

I think there's a simple answer:

you are advanced diver when you get the Advanced certification (or equivalent).
in the same way an "advanced dive" is a dive in witch is requested Advanced cert.

other way, advanced in the meaning of "expert" doesn't mean anything,
advanced in the meaning of "difficult" too.

advanced in the comparison of what?

we can talk about what does expert mean, but is relative to the type of diving and other things.

my 0.2$
;-)

[halemanō]

I think there's a simple answer:

you are advanced diver when you get the Advanced certification (or equivalent).
in the same way an "advanced dive" is a dive in witch is requested Advanced cert.

other way, advanced in the meaning of "expert" doesn't mean anything,
advanced in the meaning of "difficult" too.

advanced in the comparison of what?

we can talk about what does expert mean, but is relative to the type of diving and other things.

my 0.2$
;-)
Are you sure you posted this in the right thread? :confused:

I'm pretty sure you did not read this thread.

Often the topic of a thread is fully explained in the original post (OP); sometimes threads evolve, but not usually without following the conversation....


OK, there are three pieces to this posting; this thread here in Advanced Scuba Discussions (for divers who do feel they are advanced divers), a thread in Basic Scuba Discussions (for divers who don't feel they are advanced divers) and a thread in Technical Diving Specialties (for divers who make technical dives).

OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

So, please answer the question in the proper forum; the question is slightly different in each different forum; this question is for those who are advanced divers (<50 dives :shakehead:).

[tflaris]

OK, there are three pieces to this posting; this thread here in Advanced Scuba Discussions (for divers who do feel they are advanced divers), a thread in Basic Scuba Discussions (for divers who don't feel they are advanced divers) and a thread in Technical Diving Specialties (for divers who make technical dives).

OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

So, please answer the question in the proper forum; the question is slightly different in each different forum; this question is for those who are advanced divers (<50 dives :shakehead:).




I would best describe it as a maturity level you reach when you are confident with your gear, planning and emergency procedures.

Being able to be honest with yourself and your dive partner about your skills, knowledge and experience you actually have.

Safe Diving





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[halemanō]

... and a thread in Technical Diving Specialties (for divers who make technical dives).

OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

So, please answer the question in the proper forum; the question is slightly different in each different forum; this question is for those who are advanced divers (<50 dives :shakehead:).



I would best describe it as a maturity level you reach when you are confident with your gear, planning and emergency procedures.

Being able to be honest with yourself and your dive partner about your skills, knowledge and experience you actually have.

Safe Diving
Score another one for Jax! :shakehead:



Originally Posted by halemanōhttp://www.scubaboard.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/403739-how-do-experienced-divers-define-what-advanced-diving-post6138624.html#post6138624)

I think the problem here is that I thought participants would read the OP. :shakehead:

I am still learning how to word thread titles. :d

The current title of this thread is a Moderator's attempt to help me with my lacking original title. :dontknow:


DivemasterDennis seems to me to be just answering the title of the thread and not the actual questions in the OP.:coffee:Fixed that for ya! :thumb:

[DevonDiver]

How about this:

Advanced = Diver capability greater (+) than demands of dives conducted.
Basic = Diver capability equal (=) to demands of dives conducted.
Novice (or trainee) = Diver capability lesser (-) than demands of dives conducted.

It's all relative to the dives being done - which seems to fit reality.

Thus, you can be an advanced open water diver, a basic trimix diver or a novice CCR diver... all at the same time.

Likewise, you can be an advanced warm water diver and a novice cold water diver... all at the same time.

[DaleC]

The difference of a duck is that one foot is both the same.

[Rascally Rabbit]

The question itself is kind of multi ended. First there is Advanced as the sanctioning bodies define it. Then there are the levels of technical diving within sport diving. Finally there is the consideration of those truely advanced in diving as a trade outside of sport diving. So I'd consider an advanced within each of these roughly defined areas. Simple put for each are you get to a point that you have enough experience and training to recognize higher levels of risk within the activities and mitigate those increased risks. The Advanced diver also recognizes when they have reached their own limits and has the good sense to not proceed without first attaining the skills needed to properly mitgate increased risks. For myself I think it was somewhere as I prepared to become a DM.

[DevonDiver]

For myself I think it was somewhere as I prepared to become a DM.

I thought that myself, then learned differently. ;)

[Rascally Rabbit]

I thought that myself, then learned differently. ;)

Some of us learn our lessons faster and with less effort than others. I'm sorry if you seem to be a slow learner. Some never do learn and repeat the same mistakes over again & again. :shakehead:

[DevonDiver]

What are you chuntering about?!?

I thought I was pretty hot-shot as a DM and then as a newbie instructor. As time went by, I learnt more. Made me realise how little I actually knew then.

What DOES happen at DM/Inst level is make it easy to start comparing your ability against 'joe average' student. That can lead to a certain ego trip and sense of superiority.

After a while as a pro.... with proper attitude.... you get the opportunity to work with more experienced diver and instructors. With luck, you even get more experienced divers as customers. If you aren't blinkered by ego and self-importance, then you can continue learning from these people. In doing so, you realise that a petty DM or instructor rating has NOTHING to do with advanced diving or expertise.

In what way does ego lead someone to believe that sitting on your knees demonstrating a mask clearance is 'advanced' diving?

[markmud]

How about this:

Advanced = Diver capability greater (+) than demands of dives conducted.
Basic = Diver capability equal (=) to demands of dives conducted.
Novice (or trainee) = Diver capability lesser (-) than demands of dives conducted.

It's all relative to the dives being done - which seems to fit reality.

Thus, you can be an advanced open water diver, a basic trimix diver or a novice CCR diver... all at the same time.

Likewise, you can be an advanced warm water diver and a novice cold water diver... all at the same time.

Hello All,

DevonDiver has it just right. It is all relative to the experience you have and the dive you are performing. On some dives I am advanced, and on some dives I am a novice.

For me, my confidence and experience level reached an advanced stage, for the types of diving that I do, starting at 50 dives. I enhanced my knowledge by reading voraciously about diving and diving techniques. I watched, learned, and prodded experienced divers about their diving techniques. I am still learning.

Some of you are thinking: yeah, right! Your assumption is wrong. It does not require lots of experience or training to jump into warm, calm, somewhat clear water and blow bubbles for an hour. It really isn't that difficult! With some basic skills, it is not dangerous at all!

Do I have the ability to teach others how to dive--heck no! I have been instructed by a certified instructor who should not have been teaching others. I knew another instructor who wasn't qualified either.

Do I have the ability to dive in overhead environments--heck no!

Do I have...NO TO ALL!

I am a novice in so many ways.

markm

[Rascally Rabbit]

DD if you actually take the time to read post #86 you'll see that my thought on advanced was actually about recognizing increased risks in dive profiles and knowing your own limitations. Which I stated in my case began as I prepared for DM. It really is a time (or was a time before PADI changed the standards for DM) when divers are learning theory and application of it. Knowing ones own limitations is by it's very nature a check of the ego. As you put it..."It's all relative to the dives done"

As for ego I'm well aware of my limits and accomplishments I happen to have a number of significantly more accomplished divers I call friends and I can trust to help me expand my abilities if/when I am ready to progress. As someone who has read scubaboard for a number of years I'm also familiar with your ego. As far as I'm concerned you can check it at the door. I didn't ask for your comment on my reply to the OP and I don't need your snide remarks concerning your obvious low regard for DMs and/or OWSI.

So maybe as we progress we will have a lot more to learn. As I implied maybe what you recall when you were at that level was your shortcomings. Either way it wasn't appropriate for you to comment on. I guess the only excuse is you are just a legend in your own mind.

To the others reading this thread sorry for the hijack. You'd think someone on SB's Staff would be better mannered.

[ScubaBB]

I'm advancing every dive.