DIY - Are there laws against it?

[divebomb]

:confused:

Newbie here.....I bought some used equipment, most of it in good shape. Had the cylinder hydro tested and the reg serviced.

I do feel comfortable servicing some items myself. An example is a BC with a detached inflator hose. I have called around to LDS's and no one will sell me the part. They say that they don't sell the parts to the public.

So...is there a law against selling parts, or is it just a way to increase repair revenue? Is there a place on the web to get parts?

Thanks, Beck

:guitar:

[Walter]

Not a law, but an issue with liability.

[Bob3]

I have a box of junk here, might have the part ya need.

[captain]

The libility issue is a crock. Autozone doesn't mind selling parts to me or anyone else to repair brakes, windshield wipers or any other safety related parts on a car or truck and I could kill a lot of people if I screw up the job. The only person likely to die from repairing my own equiptment is me. It is all about money. The shops use libility as a excuse to fool diving public into believing its not them its the lawyers that won't let them sell parts.

Captain

[seahunter]

Actually captain, it's a bit more involved than that.
An authorized dealer for a brand name line of scuba gear is prohibited by his dealer agreement from selling parts. Only factory trained and certified repair techs can install parts.
There is no suggested retail price for parts because they are NOT to be sold retail.

I sell all kinds of regulator and BC parts for old models that are no longer current. There's no reason not to although in the US one does have to be mindful that if there's an accident, the victim or his heirs may well look at the seller of the parts as a likely target for litigation.
Right or wrong (it's wrong!) that's life today.

[PacNWdiver]

Age old shouting match. DIY's yelling about greedy shops and calling BS on the liability issues. Shops yelling about risks of getting sued and thier dealerships yanked.

Truth is, gear repair isn't rocket science. Many parts, like BC inflators can be ordered from Trident and others. The best thing to do is just go out and dive. Develope relationships with, who else, other divers! Some of whom may be certified techs, or have friends who are certified techs. I've only been diving about three years. I have enough friends in the biz I could get almost any parts I wanted, if I really wanted to (or had the time to) work on my gear.

This thread is a great microcosm, already you got one or two folks offering to help you out!

John

[captain]

Please explain to me if it isn't a money grab and there is a liability issue why the dive industry is the only one with such policies. There are many other industries you could apply this to. Formost being the automobile industry. They could say only factory trained mechanics at authorized dealers can work on your car and install parts because of the liability. Guess how long that would last before people screamed price fixing and the government jump in. Never heard of Autozone being sued because some shade tree machanic bought parts to fix his brakes and botched the job and got himself and a few others killed.

It wasn't always like it is now. I know I was there. I was a U S Divers and Voit Swimways dealer in the 60's and 70's and never signed any dealer agreement as to what I could or could not sell or for what price.

Only thing I can tell all you divers is to write your legislators and explain to them whats going on. If enough of you scream we might be heard.

Captain

[DEEPSEAWOLF]

I see liabilities and find myself saying... "Get over it, life has risks!"
Unfortunately as someone getting higher medical training than most civilians and other Law Enforcement, I also find yself looking down that barrel from the wrong end. If I save a life I am heralded as a hero, yet may still be sued for a broken figernail on the victim. (Actually, Florida as the good samaritan act which protects me but still..)

Also as a diver and hanyman and poor folk who gots ta do stuff myself cuz ah cain't afford high prices, I love doing my own repairs rather than paying twenty dollars an hour to get someone else to do the same thing I can do.

As for other regulated industries, the medical industry is famous for "leave it to trained technicians" mottos. So is Law Enforcment.
When our armorer had to be sent to Smith & Wesson's armoring class to be allowed by State Regulations to replace grips on a State weapon!? Ludicrous? HELL YES!

I wish this ere a simple issue. I agree that there are very simple user serviceable parts on our life support gear, unfortunately, I have also seen the other end of the liability issue. Wish we could return to simpler times before people sued over having HOT hot coffee.

Note* Do not use hairdryer while showering. Do not insert hot curling iron into body orifices... actual warning labels due to stupid lawsuits. Oh well, welcome to the land of opportunity.

;-0

[pipedope]

Forcing repairs to be done only be certified tech actually increases liability for shops and manufactures.

Now instead of just being responsible for the part the tech is responsible for the work he (she) does and also for not noticing a defect if there is one. The certifing agency is on the hook if a tech makes a mistake because they must have not trained the tech properly. The shop is on the hook as the tech is an employee and agent for the shop.

Not only that but because the tech has touched the gear they may be held liable for problems that they did not cause simp0ly because they were the last one to handle the gear.

In short, the liablity issue is a crock.

The 'dealer agreement' issue in any other industry would be called illegal restraint of trade and found unenforceable by most any court.

Unless a large number of dive shops and/or a large number of divers get together to force change it will stay the way it is. No one individual has the power (read influnce and money) to get the issue through the courts.

The little guy gets screwed and the rich and big companies just make more money.

[Rick Inman]

OK, then what about my LDS who won't service my regulator because the are not a dealer for the brand, and claim liability issues? What's the deal with THAT?? The German manufact. said that they WILL sell the LDS parts even if they're not a dealer.

[Bob3]

... LDS who won't service my regulator... It sounds like they don't have a reg tech there that they would consider "qualified" to work on your reg.
They are probably doing you a favor by not messing with it.
What kind is it anyway?

[FredT]

Not the money you are paying to the LDS for service. Nor is it about the liability issues that should be attached to a shop selling you parts.

It's about keeping the money out of the pockets of the "starving" trial lawyer who wants to line HIS pockets with the money he can extort from the LDS and manufacturers.

The problem isn't the dive shop or the manufacturers. The problem is folks who can lay a $10,000 to 100,000 "fine" of defense lawer fees on a company with NO responsibility if they loose or the case is baseless. If the US adopts a "looser pays" where the plaintiff (or the plantiffs lawyer if the case was taken on a contingency fee basis) is on the hook for minimum pre-defined defense lawer hourly costs if the trial court or jury finds the plaintiff's case without merit.

A simple solution would be to prohibit lawyers from ever again practicing law, or an any way recieving money directly or indirectly from a person or corporation that practices law, if they EVER served in a positon the writes laws or regulations having the force of law. Simple conflict of interest rules apply to everyone else, perhaps they should be applied to lawyers as well. If they want to write the rules for the game, they shouldn't play in the game any more.

Then specifically define what the manufacturer's liability is. This should be for a design _known_ to be defective at the time of the part's production, or the sale of a defective part. Customer stupidity and inattention to details is _not_ the responsibility of manufacturer/sales outlet.

The problem, and the potential solution, resides between Maryland and Virginia. Your Congresscritter should know you by your fist name until the issue is resolved, or he's unemployed.

FT

[Rick Inman]

Bob3 once bubbled...
It sounds like they don't have a reg tech there that they would consider "qualified" to work on your reg.
They are probably doing you a favor by not messing with it.
What kind is it anyway?
It's a ProSub. The US distributor is history, so I have to deal with the German manufacturer. It;s working perfect now, but when service time comes I need a plan.

[d33ps1x]

Liability...What a laugh.

[FredT]

Rick Inman once bubbled...

It's a ProSub. The US distributor is history, so I have to deal with the German manufacturer. It;s working perfect now, but when service time comes I need a plan.

Perhaps the simple answer is to become a "trained" Prosub tech yourself. If you can fix a toaster or change a light bulb and have a 10th grade reading level you too can fix regs. Ping on them for the manuals and parts, letting them know you'll support the other (3?) prosub folks in your area. It should take an evening or two to read the manuals, and maybe $50 to get the tools specific to your reg.

As a side note the ONLY tech I want working on my gear is ME! I've had way too many regs fail on the first dive after comig back from "professional" service.

FT

[Rick Inman]

FredT once bubbled...


Perhaps the simple answer is to become a "trained" Prosub tech yourself. If you can fix a toaster or change a light bulb and have a 10th grade reading level you too can fix regs. Ping on them for the manuals and parts, letting them know you'll support the other (3?) prosub folks in your area. It should take an evening or two to read the manuals, and maybe $50 to get the tools specific to your reg.

As a side note the ONLY tech I want working on my gear is ME! I've had way too many regs fail on the first dive after comig back from "professional" service.

FT

Yeah. That is what I'll do.
Thanks.

[ScubaToneDog]

seahunter once bubbled...

There is no suggested retail price for parts because they are NOT to be sold retail.


If that be true then why do I pay $14 for first stage parts and $14 for second stage parts and another $25 for labor when I take my regs in for service. Plus no matter how many times I ask they never give me the old parts back. Dare I say it but how do I know any work was even done on it. I would love to see a LDS have a window where I could watch their tech work like in a car dealerships service department. Problem is'nt regulation of the industry, its that in order to have LDS they have to make a profit in order to stay in business. There have been many refrences to car parts stores in this thread and you cant compare. Most parts stores sell to dealerships and garages and move a lot of stock that way. Dive shops do not have the luxury of an entire populace that rely on dive products and services for daily transport so comparing the two is rediculous. I see both sides of the fence here and agree with both but see no solution to remedy it. If you can get the parts and have the know how, more power to ya, just support your Local Dive Shop or you may not have one to fall back on.

[Bob3]

... no matter how many times I ask they never give me the old parts back. The obvious reason a shop won't give you your old parts is because they're *probably* ripping you off.
Time to look for a new shop.
There is no suggested retail price for parts ... Yep, there is. Repair shops don't give you the parts for their cost, they mark them up.

[captain]

Scubatonedog

You have the auto parts issue wrong. Its not a matter of cost or profit. The LDS says it won't sell you parts at any price because they might be sued by your wife or parents if you mess up fixing your own regulator and die as a result. You or I can walk into the local Autozone, Pep Boys , etc, and buy any part whether you know jack about fixing cars or not. You could kill a lot more people if you screw up your car than if you screw up your regulator. Autozone doesn't seem too worried about liability. For this reason the liability issue is a crock.

Captain

[ScubaToneDog]

Kinda like gun shops are not worried about selling ammo....duh...bullets can kill....I get it.

BTW I did change the LDS I get my regs serviced at...Their "tech" was way too obnoxious, especially when I asked if in the rebuild kit did it include a new mouth piece and he said yes. Amazingly my comfo-bite was still on my Genisis second. I demanded my mouthpiece or a refund based on a new replacement mouthpiece ($12.99 + tax, the kit was $14). They gave me the mouthpiece. I now only go there for air.

[Bob3]

Geeze, you caught your shop red handed charging for parts they never replaced, eh?
Maybe you'd like to share the name of the joint, or at least tell us who it wasn't. ;)

[dutchfin]

whether you agree or not, liability is an issue in the U.S. Some people mentioned writing to the goverment. I for one don't feel like we need to get the goverment involved in our sport. It is one of the few places they DON'T have their sticky fingers in. If you search and look around, you will probably find whay you are looking for. Divers in general tend to look after each other...........

[ScubaToneDog]

It wasn’t really the shop as much as their part time "Tech". I know of others who similar experiences with the Tech who we will call Dick Cranius to protect his real identity (not that I ever really caught his name). His discrepancies ranged from improper installation and/or leaving out the diaphragm all together on a second, to improper installation and/or leaving out of an O-ring in the first stage. Guess what....if you have extra parts after a rebuild on a set of regs....ya did it wrong!

Besides he doesn’t work there anymore and I found a Tech I like and trust. Not to mention that my tech hooks me up at cost for parts and only the parts that need replacement.

As far as liability issues are concerned, you have to prove it to sue for it and win. Selling someone parts would not hold up. Working on someone’s reg would not hold up unless you can prove negligence....

[dutchfin]

Hmmmmmmmmmm...Leaving out an O-ring and diaphram, would that be negligence???

[ScubaToneDog]

Yes it would, if I had been stupid enough to jump in the water with my air off. Then I would have been at fault.

I hooked it up right there in the shop to my tank that I just got filled. It was pretty evident with the air hissing out of my first that something was not quite right....

[Jambi]

dutchfin once bubbled...
Divers in general tend to look after each other...........

So little of us Noble Few left in this world. Lucily diving has an abundance of Good, Noble people. I have yet to meet a diver that wouldn't give any backup or spare parts they had to save a dive.

Jambi

[FredT]

dutchfin once bubbled...
whether you agree or not, liability is an issue in the U.S. Some people mentioned writing to the goverment. I for one don't feel like we need to get the goverment involved in our sport.

However a general liability tort revision specifying what the boundaries are and increasing the reliance on the individual's personal responsibility will cover diving, and all the other areas currently being abused by a minority of the lawyers out there!

Similar legislation was passed when civil aviation almost died from lawsuit abuse, and is about to be passed to cover firearms manufacturers. A much more general bill is badly needed, but is killed by the trial lawyers association at every attempt. Seems it would kill their "golden goose." As far as I can tell that goose has kboth cancer and ebola and needs to be killed before it spreads to the rest of the economy!
FT

[d33ps1x]

Wrong or right us Canadian's get a little tired of issues based around an litigious American society overflowing into our backyard.

Just because American's are sueing each other silly doesn't mean the rest of the world does. Nor does it mean the rest of the world should have to play by the same rules.

We Canucks would like our parts kits and service manuals thanks. :)

[turnerjd]

d33ps1x was courageous enough to say...
Wrong or right us Canadian's get a little tired of issues based around an litigious American society overflowing into our backyard.

Just because American's are sueing each other silly doesn't mean the rest of the world does. Nor does it mean the rest of the world should have to play by the same rules.

We Canucks would like our parts kits and service manuals thanks. :)

So would we on this side of the pond :)