First dives with E-PL3 -- flash sync problems

[ProfF]

Hi All,

I am spending a week in a marine biology class and managing to "sneak" about a dive a day, with the aim of getting experience with the new camera. Setup is NA-EPL3 + two Sea & Sea strobes (YS110a and YS-01) with optical cable.

One immediate problem that I run into is that the camera seems to loose sync with the strobes. The strobes are set up in TTL mode, the camera is manual (Say T = 1/100, F = 5.6) with fill-in flash mode. The phenomna is that I start taking pictures and the strobes work fine, and then at some point the images do not include the strobes (the strobes fire, but image does not include them, and thus the suspicion that the synchronization is lost). So far the relative location of the strobes does not seem to matter, nor the exposure time. This is not pre-flash problem, as I get a series of images correctly lit and then suddenly the camera looses it.

So far, turning the camera on/off seem to solve the problem some of the times. But I don't have good idea why this happens. Would appreciate suggestions (so that I can try them in the dives the next few days).


Thanks!

-Nir

[brucetrinity]

Hi All,



One immediate problem that I run into is that the camera seems to loose sync with the strobes. The strobes are set up in TTL mode, the camera is manual (Say T = 1/100, F = 5.6) with fill-in flash mode. The phenomna is that I start taking pictures and the strobes work fine, and then at some point the images do not include the strobes (the strobes fire, but image does not include them, and thus the suspicion that the synchronization is lost). So far the relative location of the strobes does not seem to matter, nor the exposure time. This is not pre-flash problem, as I get a series of images correctly lit and then suddenly the camera looses it.

So far, turning the camera on/off seem to solve the problem some of the times. But I don't have good idea why this happens. Would appreciate suggestions (so that I can try them in the dives the next few days).


Thanks!

-Nir I'm assuming you are using two fiber optic cables (one for each strobe) and both strobes are TTL ( neither is a slave). Since the strobes fire, it does sound like you have lost TTL and they are firing early (off the preflash/TTL burst). For a start, you might try switching "fill-in" to "full" to eliminate the possibility of a weak signal.

[ProfF]

I'm assuming you are using two fiber optic cables (one for each strobe) and both strobes are TTL ( neither is a slave). Since the strobes fire, it does sound like you have lost TTL and they are firing early (off the preflash/TTL burst). For a start, you might try switching "fill-in" to "full" to eliminate the possibility of a weak signal.

Indeed two optic cables (one inon L-type and one souped up from hoslink(?) cable). Both strobes are in TTL mode, but I tried them in slave mode with similar problem. I suspect this is due to how the camera flash operates, but as I suspected the manual is not very helpful. I did search for the flash control menu options but didn't find any useful ones, but maybe I missed what is going.

Thanks!

[gstrek]

I shoot an E-PL1 in its Olympus housing with a single S&S YS-01 strobe. The camera is set to manual (1/125, f/8, fill in flash, ISO 200) with fresahly charged batteries in camera and strobe. The YS-01 is set to TTL and full output. The strobe on the E-PL1 is popped up.

There is at least one other camera flash setting that you want to check and make sure is off - RC Mode. If it is ON, it may enable some features you don't want and cannot use with the S&S.

As I am holding the camera in shooting position, flash is on the left, the fiber cable is from the outboard (left) fiber port on the housing to the black port on the strobe. According to the YS-01 manual, a second strobe would be connected to the clear port of the YS-01 (not the camera housing second port).

After I kit up inside, I take a test shot in the mirror to make sure I see the strobe having fired in the exposed shot (a very hot spot). There have been a few times I forgot to pop up the flash, something I don't want to discover under water and I don't want to open the housing on the boat. This also has helped me asses which mode my YS-01 needs to be set to.

This may very well be a question that you could post in the S&S forum.

[ProfF]

I shoot an E-PL1 in its Olympus housing with a single S&S YS-01 strobe. The camera is set to manual (1/125, f/8, fill in flash, ISO 200) with fresahly charged batteries in camera and strobe. The YS-01 is set to TTL and full output. The strobe on the E-PL1 is popped up.

There is at least one other camera flash setting that you want to check and make sure is off - RC Mode. If it is ON, it may enable some features you don't want and cannot use with the S&S.

As I am holding the camera in shooting position, flash is on the left, the fiber cable is from the outboard (left) fiber port on the housing to the black port on the strobe. According to the YS-01 manual, a second strobe would be connected to the clear port of the YS-01 (not the camera housing second port).

After I kit up inside, I take a test shot in the mirror to make sure I see the strobe having fired in the exposed shot (a very hot spot). There have been a few times I forgot to pop up the flash, something I don't want to discover under water and I don't want to open the housing on the boat. This also has helped me asses which mode my YS-01 needs to be set to.

This may very well be a question that you could post in the S&S forum.

Gary,

Thanks for the informative reply. The setting I use are basically identical (RC mode is off). I will try to connect the YS110a to the YS01 clear port. However, I suspect that the problem is the camera. When I do a test shot on land things work fine, and I cannot recreate the problem right now...

-Nir

[gstrek]

Gary,

Thanks for the informative reply. The setting I use are basically identical (RC mode is off). I will try to connect the YS110a to the YS01 clear port. However, I suspect that the problem is the camera. When I do a test shot on land things work fine, and I cannot recreate the problem right now...

-Nir

Please post what you discover. I believe that the fiber cable sends a 2 way signal that quenches the internal strobe a the appropriate time. My guess is that a second cable for the second strobe may be throwing off the internal strobe synch. Probably not an issue if using the Oly strobes (most likely using the RC mode).

[pennywise]

Please post what you discover. I believe that the fiber cable sends a 2 way signal that quenches the internal strobe a the appropriate time. My guess is that a second cable for the second strobe may be throwing off the internal strobe synch. Probably not an issue if using the Oly strobes (most likely using the RC mode).

Did my first dive with the E-PL3 last Sunday with 2 Inon Strobes. Both firing all the time.... cam flash set to fill in and strobes on S-TTL. Done the same with our E-PL1; working perfectly ok.
Got a few friends with same set up as you're using; no probs either! So... yes, cam looks suspect!

[cardog]

Problem solved with mine. Faulty fiber optic cable was the problem......

[brucetrinity]

Gary,

Thanks for the informative reply. The setting I use are basically identical (RC mode is off). I will try to connect the YS110a to the YS01 clear port. However, I suspect that the problem is the camera. When I do a test shot on land things work fine, and I cannot recreate the problem right now...

-Nir

There seems to be a misunderstanding about RC Mode. RC Mode is Wireless TTL .... RC Mode must be set to ON for wireless (fiber optic). If RC Mode is set to OFF the camera will NOT communicate TTL commands to the remote strobe (the YS-01) thru the fiber optic cable. If RC Mode is OFF it will behave like a non-RC body (such as an e-500) which can do standard (not wireless) TTL. Wireless TTL communicates instructions to the remote strobe by including signals during/instead-of pre-flash. The S & S YS-01 should be set to TTL using the strobe Mode switch and RC Mode should be set to ON in the E-PL1/2/3 control panel.

If you have RC Mode to Off you are NOT doing wireless TTL.

Yes .... I have confirmed this on my E-PL1 and my UFL-2 .... if the UFL-2 is set to RC mode and the E-PL1 is set to RC = ON the strobe will fire and do TTL .... if the UFL-2 is set to RC mode and the E-PL1 is set to RC = OFF the strobe will NOT fire.

No .... I do not have a YS-01. However, the YS-01 mimics the UFL-2 wireless TTL function and should do the same thing.

See Jack's Olympus Underwater Guide at Optical Ocean Sales for the e-pl1 http://opticaloceansales.com/files/guide_E-PL1.pdf .... assume camera instructions as if you had the UFL-2.

I think you need to start over with the correct modes in the YS-01 and the E-PL3 and see what happens.

BTW, the YS-01 manual is here: http://www.seaandsea.com/PDF_manuals/YS01.pdf and specifies TTL setting using the Mode switch (page E-10).

For some detail on the camera strobe setup options look here near the bottom of the page: E-PL1 flash (http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~parsog/olyepl1/11-epl1-flash.html)

[cardog]

There seems to be a misunderstanding about RC Mode. RC Mode is Wireless TTL .... RC Mode must be set to ON for wireless (fiber optic). If RC Mode is set to OFF the camera will NOT communicate TTL commands to the remote strobe (the YS-01) thru the fiber optic cable. If RC Mode is OFF it will behave like a non-RC body (such as an e-500) which can do standard (not wireless) TTL. Wireless TTL communicates instructions to the remote strobe by including signals during/instead-of pre-flash. The S & S YS-01 should be set to TTL using the strobe Mode switch and RC Mode should be set to ON in the E-PL1/2/3 control panel.

If you have RC Mode to Off you are NOT doing wireless TTL.

Yes .... I have confirmed this on my E-PL1 and my UFL-2 .... if the UFL-2 is set to RC mode and the E-PL1 is set to RC = ON the strobe will fire and do TTL .... if the UFL-2 is set to RC mode and the E-PL1 is set to RC = OFF the strobe will NOT fire.

No .... I do not have a YS-01. However, the YS-01 mimics the UFL-2 wireless TTL function and should do the same thing.

See Jack's Olympus Underwater Guide at Optical Ocean Sales for the e-pl1 http://opticaloceansales.com/files/guide_E-PL1.pdf .... assume camera instructions as if you had the UFL-2.

I think you need to start over with the correct modes in the YS-01 and the E-PL3 and see what happens.

BTW, the YS-01 manual is here: http://www.seaandsea.com/PDF_manuals/YS01.pdf and specifies TTL setting using the Mode switch (page E-10).

For some detail on the camera strobe setup options look here near the bottom of the page: E-PL1 flash (http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~parsog/olyepl1/11-epl1-flash.html)
The E-PL2 flash should be set to "FILL" not to "RC". The YS-01 and the Inon strobes will fire in sTTL in manual, aperture and shutter priority using the fiber optic cables(s).
With the YS-01 you can tell that the ttl is working when the light is green on the strobe after you take the shot.

[nikitich]

2 brucetrinity - AFAIK the RC mode works only with Oly strobes (UFL-2 in your case) but is useless with strobes of other manufacturers. RC stands for remote control protocol incorporated only by Olympus.

[gstrek]

There seems to be a misunderstanding about RC Mode. RC Mode is Wireless TTL .... RC Mode must be set to ON for wireless (fiber optic). If RC Mode is set to OFF the camera will NOT communicate TTL commands to the remote strobe (the YS-01) thru the fiber optic cable. If RC Mode is OFF it will behave like a non-RC body (such as an e-500) which can do standard (not wireless) TTL. Wireless TTL communicates instructions to the remote strobe by including signals during/instead-of pre-flash. The S & S YS-01 should be set to TTL using the strobe Mode switch and RC Mode should be set to ON in the E-PL1/2/3 control panel.

If you have RC Mode to Off you are NOT doing wireless TTL.

Yes .... I have confirmed this on my E-PL1 and my UFL-2 .... if the UFL-2 is set to RC mode and the E-PL1 is set to RC = ON the strobe will fire and do TTL .... if the UFL-2 is set to RC mode and the E-PL1 is set to RC = OFF the strobe will NOT fire.

No .... I do not have a YS-01. However, the YS-01 mimics the UFL-2 wireless TTL function and should do the same thing.

See Jack's Olympus Underwater Guide at Optical Ocean Sales for the e-pl1 http://opticaloceansales.com/files/guide_E-PL1.pdf .... assume camera instructions as if you had the UFL-2.

I think you need to start over with the correct modes in the YS-01 and the E-PL3 and see what happens.

BTW, the YS-01 manual is here: http://www.seaandsea.com/PDF_manuals/YS01.pdf and specifies TTL setting using the Mode switch (page E-10).

For some detail on the camera strobe setup options look here near the bottom of the page: E-PL1 flash (http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~parsog/olyepl1/11-epl1-flash.html)

The Olympus UFL strobes work with the RC mode (along the lines of the 'commander mode') allowing control of flash via the lcd camera display. The Oly strobes (also the Oly FL-50R and FL-36R) work this way but not the S&S YS-01 strobes.

[brucetrinity]

The Olympus UFL strobes work with the RC mode (along the lines of the 'commander mode') allowing control of flash via the lcd camera display. The Oly strobes (also the Oly FL-50R and FL-36R) work this way but not the S&S YS-01 strobes.

Ahah ! So, if I understand correctly, the YS-01 is not RC compatible. It is merely following the on/off cycle of the popup flash ... is that correct?

[gstrek]

Ahah ! So, if I understand correctly, the YS-01 is not RC compatible. It is merely following the on/off cycle of the popup flash ... is that correct?

The Sea & Sea YS-01 uses what the manual calls DS-TTL (or you can use manual mode). The fiber cable plugs into the 'slave sensor' port on the YS-01 (the black port on the strobe). So yes, it does take its lead from the popup flash. I shoot the camera on manual with fill flash and strobe in DS-TTL. I can use the camera LCD to adjust the flash compensation.

In RC mode the Olympus above water strobes (FL-50R and FL-36R) are wireless but it is light controlled from the popup flash not radio controled (like with a Pocket Wizard). My assumption is that the UFL Olympus strobes in RC mode work in a similar fashion and require the popup flash to be engaged. One of the main advantages of the UFL strobes is the sync speed can be much faster than 1/160 (max for the YS-01) using the RC Mode FP option.

[brucetrinity]

The Sea & Sea YS-01 uses what the manual calls DS-TTL (or you can use manual mode). The fiber cable plugs into the 'slave sensor' port on the YS-01 (the black port on the strobe). So yes, it does take its lead from the popup flash. I shoot the camera on manual with fill flash and strobe in DS-TTL. I can use the camera LCD to adjust the flash compensation.

In RC mode the Olympus above water strobes (FL-50R and FL-36R) are wireless but it is light controlled from the popup flash not radio controled (like with a Pocket Wizard). My assumption is that the UFL Olympus strobes in RC mode work in a similar fashion and require the popup flash to be engaged. One of the main advantages of the UFL strobes is the sync speed can be much faster than 1/160 (max for the YS-01) using the RC Mode FP option.

Thanks, I think I now understand the difference between Oly UFL-2 RC mode and the YS-01. In my case, with the UFL-2 and the E-PL1 in RC mode, you can visually see the different behavior of the popup flash. If the E-PL1 is set to RC = ON (without a remote strobe attached) the popup does not actually expose the picture the same way that it does with RC = OFF (It's very underexposed). With RC = On, apparently the popup is just sending data and not actually lighting the scene (except for incidental light from the data stream). Or, to put it another way, according to an Oly data sheet, in RC mode (camera) the popup is an optical controller and not a "flash". Is that your understanding?

[gstrek]

Thanks, I think I now understand the difference between Oly UFL-2 RC mode and the YS-01. In my case, with the UFL-2 and the E-PL1 in RC mode, you can visually see the different behavior of the popup flash. If the E-PL1 is set to RC = ON (without a remote strobe attached) the popup does not actually expose the picture the same way that it does with RC = OFF (It's very underexposed). With RC = On, apparently the popup is just sending data and not actually lighting the scene (except for incidental light from the data stream). Or, to put it another way, according to an Oly data sheet, in RC mode (camera) the popup is an optical controller and not a "flash". Is that your understanding?


That is my understanding as well. In fact, the popup flash (above water) will add some incidental light. You can push it back so it bounces off the ceiling or (I haven't tried this) put a piece of exposed film over the flash. Supposedly, enough light passes through to still control the off camera strobe but not enough to affect the exposure (or to add additional 'catch light' to the eyes). Of course this is not an issue when underwater!

For above water, I would go with the Oly strobes given the simplicity of off camera flash using RC mode. For underwater and for travel, I would go with the YS-01 given the size, packability and the modeling light. The UFLs are larger and more floaty but the higher sync speed might be nice to have. Not a good enough reason for me, though.

[brucetrinity]

That is my understanding as well. In fact, the popup flash (above water) will add some incidental light. You can push it back so it bounces off the ceiling or (I haven't tried this) put a piece of exposed film over the flash. Supposedly, enough light passes through to still control the off camera strobe but not enough to affect the exposure (or to add additional 'catch light' to the eyes). Of course this is not an issue when underwater!

For above water, I would go with the Oly strobes given the simplicity of off camera flash using RC mode. For underwater and for travel, I would go with the YS-01 given the size, packability and the modeling light. The UFLs are larger and more floaty but the higher sync speed might be nice to have. Not a good enough reason for me, though.

Yes ... and the YS-01 flexibility on other camera brands.

So ... any progress from Proff ???

[ProfF]

Thanks for the informative discussion. I didn't try too much the RC mode but as far as I could tell it does not work with the YS-01 (but it might be that I am wrong).

Anyhow, today's dive (I am in a course so been limited to one dive a day) went smoothly. I believe that the problem was with one of the optic cables -- I used two L-shaped adaptors connected to a toslink cable (e.g., http://www.amazon.com/Toslink-Rotate-degress-Female-Adapter/dp/B005H4I010). Once I removed one of them the problem disappeared. Again, I am not sure if this was the cause or not. I suspect that too many interface points reduce the signal quality/strength. But I am not sure.

-Nir

[gstrek]

Thanks for the informative discussion. I didn't try too much the RC mode but as far as I could tell it does not work with the YS-01 (but it might be that I am wrong).

Anyhow, today's dive (I am in a course so been limited to one dive a day) went smoothly. I believe that the problem was with one of the optic cables -- I used two L-shaped adaptors connected to a toslink cable (e.g., http://www.amazon.com/Toslink-Rotate-degress-Female-Adapter/dp/B005H4I010). Once I removed one of them the problem disappeared. Again, I am not sure if this was the cause or not. I suspect that too many interface points reduce the signal quality/strength. But I am not sure.

-Nir

Thanks for the update. I am interested in what you find with RC mode. This is the second post in the thread with a cable problem, btw.

FWIW, I am using the S&S fiber optic sync L-type cable: 50107 Sea & Sea Fiber Optic L-Type Sync Cable for Slave Strobes and Cameras. (http://www.adorama.com/SSFOCL.html) It has worked flawlessly but I baby it knowing how brittle they can be.

[brucetrinity]

Thanks for the informative discussion. I didn't try too much the RC mode but as far as I could tell it does not work with the YS-01 (but it might be that I am wrong).

Anyhow, today's dive (I am in a course so been limited to one dive a day) went smoothly. I believe that the problem was with one of the optic cables -- I used two L-shaped adaptors connected to a toslink cable (e.g., http://www.amazon.com/Toslink-Rotate-degress-Female-Adapter/dp/B005H4I010). Once I removed one of them the problem disappeared. Again, I am not sure if this was the cause or not. I suspect that too many interface points reduce the signal quality/strength. But I am not sure.



-Nir

Just for the heck of it, you may want to have a look at http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/olympus-outlet/402903-mis-aligned-fiber-optic-ports-e-pl1-housing-pt-ep01.html ....
However, don't know how 2 strobes could be affected unless you have a dual cable plugged into one port (the weaker one) or you have a single cable in the weaker port and the 2nd cable is a daisy chain from strobe 1 to strobe 2.

[ProfF]

Just for the heck of it, you may want to have a look at http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/olympus-outlet/402903-mis-aligned-fiber-optic-ports-e-pl1-housing-pt-ep01.html ....
However, don't know how 2 strobes could be affected unless you have a dual cable plugged into one port (the weaker one) or you have a single cable in the weaker port and the 2nd cable is a daisy chain from strobe 1 to strobe 2.

Thanks, I read that discussion very carefully and plan to upgrade my toslink cable along the lines proposed there. As I said, I am not sure what exactly happened here. I diagnosed another problem (that in some of the pictures had light from one of the strobes) and then the other (the one I reported here) went away. The facts do not add up, and so either my recollection of what went wrong underwater were missing or the problem might come back to bite me :-(