Tip for OW classes? [Archive] - ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum - Diving Social Network

View Full Version : Tip for OW classes?


Sponsored Link

wahooinit
December 18th, 2011, 12:57 AM
My girlfriend is getting certified and her instructor told them to tip the DM 20% of the course fee on the last day. Thats $60. She told me the DM has done nothing other than bring water to the dive. The OW dives are at a local pond about an acre in size and there are only 6 in the class.

This seems a little strange to me. I worked as a DM through college and never got tipped on OW classes...

TSandM
December 18th, 2011, 01:22 AM
As a DM who assists in OW classes, I think that instructor has done something lovely.

Maybe the students feel that the DM has only brought water. But is there an entrance fee for the site? The DMs have probably paid it themselves. Did the DMs help out in the pool? I'll bet they weren't paid for that. Did the DMs schlep gear for the students or instructors? Are they keeping records, and helping students put their gear together, and keeping a weather eye on things that aren't assembled right or that might cause trouble?

Even the shore support DMs give up a day of their time to help. The students might not recognize all the things they do, and probably don't realize that it's likely that no one but the primary instructor for the class is getting any recompense for being involved.

My husband encourages his students to tip the DMs. I don't care if they tip me, because I'm working on an agreement with my husband. But I think it's awfully nice to do something to recognize the other volunteers, whether it's money or a small gift or even a card.

Slater
December 18th, 2011, 01:42 AM
When I recently took ow, dm went along on every cert dive & was there to overlook things for your safety while instructor focused on required drills.
Thats not, "dm did nothing"
Yes, I didnt tip but I didnt know any better..
Just took advanced open water with same instructor & dm, we opted for a weekend at Catalina instead of boring La Jolla..
I tipped both the instructor & dm as this to me wasnt just an ordinary class, if that makes any sense..
They suggested, cordinated hotel, ferry, dinner plans, golf cart, ect...
It wasnt by no means 20%, just a gesture of appreciation.

Centrals
December 18th, 2011, 05:08 AM
I can think of couple of reasons why the instructor will require an extra pair of hands.
1. Because he needs him in situation where he can't physically handle it.
2. Part of the course for the dm candidate.
When the class is more than couple of students, a smart instructor will always seek assistance just in case.
I do not agree why the ow student has to tip the dm even though he is there to assist them.

The instructor should had made it clear in the beginning of the course rather than on the last day!!!!

ScubaBB
December 18th, 2011, 06:17 AM
IMHO a diveschool/instructor gets paid to give a course. If a DM is needed to assist in giving this course, most likely because of the number of students, the diveschool/instructor should pay the DM for his work. The costs of this should be included in the price for the course. So like Centrals stated, asking for extra money at the end of the course is not appropiate.

Nitro91
December 18th, 2011, 06:26 AM
different for each country, i know in the USA, tipping is very common. tipping barely happens in australia, only in restaurants or cabs.

Doc Harry
December 18th, 2011, 09:28 AM
$300 for OW certification?

That's rather cheap, and no where near proper compensation for the time and energy that the instructor and DM have invested.

Hawkwood
December 18th, 2011, 09:52 AM
The instructor should pay the DM.

Telling students (or anyone for that matter) they must tip and how much to to tip is not right.

It is a different matter for the instructor to let the students know about all the work the DM has done (as TSandM stated) and encourage that the DM will welcome any show of appreciation.

As a DM I did not get a lot of "tips". The occasional beer, sometimes a bit of cash, but the thanks and a round of handshakes and claps was most appreciated.

I did work with some instructors who paid me a percentage of their instructor fees - that is the model that I now follow. After all, who asks the DM to help - the Instructor.

My comments are in context of the the location of the OP and our tipping conventions in the US and Canada.

thirdcoastdiver
December 18th, 2011, 09:54 AM
I have tipped for all of my courses. In my courses,the DM didn't do anything,but every time I looked up he was hovering nearby....ready in case I needed help. it was very reassuring.

EastEndDiver
December 18th, 2011, 10:11 AM
Being TOLD to tip a certain amount by the person who "hired" the DM is somewhat absurd.The Instructor should pay the DM if he feels so strongly about him receiving $60. per student or suggest tipping whatever amount a student decides on their own.

Here in NY every Deli or corner store you go into they have a "Tip" cup on the counter it is ridiculous.

Kourtjestr
December 18th, 2011, 10:26 AM
I can't comment much on the tipping of the DM, as my OW class was a 1:1 with the instructor due to his inability to find other interested students in October in Maine. I will say, however, that even though I paid him for his time, I felt the class was so worthwhile and he did such a great job that I ended up tipping him in the form of a thank you gift (diving related, of course!) for everything he did. Not saying this is the way to go, either, but I felt it was a necessary gesture in my case.

wahooinit
December 18th, 2011, 10:50 AM
She is going to tip. Seems fair I guess.

TMHeimer
December 18th, 2011, 02:08 PM
My views on this are known. Hope to DM soon myself, but still feel:
--Shop, not Instructor should pay DMs--not talking about tips
--It was nice for the DM that the Instructor mentioned the 20%, but that's like a restaurent including the gratuity.
It could be a little offensive to ask the student for another $60. Maybe a suggestion of a tip for good work would be more appropriate. As stated, tipping varies in countries, but a tip should be something the student thinks of or decides on.
--In classes I've taken or DMCd I have never seen a tip at our shop.

black_sea
December 18th, 2011, 02:12 PM
I think it is not proper to tip in a class environment - you paid for the class. Any and all expenses have to be discussed upfront before they ask you to pay for the class.
During fun dives, tipping is up to you.

Hawkwood
December 18th, 2011, 02:18 PM
....
--Shop, not Instructor should pay DMs--not talking about tips
...

Does the shop require DM's (as Certified Assistants, not talking about DMCs) to work with an Instructor during their classes? If so, I agree the shop should pay both.

However, if an Instructor asks the DM to help, that shouldn't be the shop's issue, but rather the Instructor's issue.

Nwcid
December 18th, 2011, 04:09 PM
As an instructor I guess I dont understand this. When I teach classes (medical stuff) I have a price for the class which covers all my cost including "helpers". My job (that I was hired for) is to give them the best information and hands on training to help them pass the class. Tips are not for doing ones job. Tips are for people who go above and beyond expectations. I would never dream of accepting tips for my classes but I have got cards and that is very much appreciated. Also the fact of knowing students pass there classes is the reward.

Now if I was going way out of my way and putting in lots of extra time outside of class or similar I would consider taking compensation for that since that is not part of the actual class.


BTW: PADI OW averages $300 around here.

Centrals
December 18th, 2011, 08:34 PM
$300 for OW certification?

That's rather cheap, and no where near proper compensation for the time and energy that the instructor and DM have invested.
It is too good to be truth!!
The instructor should know what to charge in the beginning!! I believe he has to "honour" his original quote even if he is losing money. He learnt his lesson and charge more next time.
$60.00 as tip for the dm in this case is absurd.

wahooinit
December 18th, 2011, 09:02 PM
Well she tipped so no hurt feelings to you working DMs. But, surprise fees after a person has started a class does nothing but make that person feel like they were taken advantage of. We will be taking our business elsewhere from here on out. The fee almost doubled by the end of the course.

DevonDiver
December 18th, 2011, 09:49 PM
I never quite understand the US 'tip culture', where tips are seen as obligatory and can form part of staff's predicted earnings. I see a tip as something given voluntarily, if the service is above and beyond the what you expect (and have paid for).

I wish I could "demand" 20%... or any anything... from my customers, it'd have a major impact on my income and subsequent quality of life. I rarely/occasionally get a tip circa 5-10%, but most customers prefer to buy a few beers or a meal. Personally, I'm just glad to get that feedback that they've enjoyed the course and value the effort I put into it.

TMHeimer
December 18th, 2011, 10:34 PM
Does the shop require DM's (as Certified Assistants, not talking about DMCs) to work with an Instructor during their classes? If so, I agree the shop should pay both.

However, if an Instructor asks the DM to help, that shouldn't be the shop's issue, but rather the Instructor's issue.

Agree completely. If the ratios dictate there must be a cert. assistant the shop should pay the DM. If not, and the shop doesn't pay, the Instructor should pay his DM. It would say a lot for instructor, who would pay out of his/her own pocket to improve the class.

TMHeimer
December 18th, 2011, 10:40 PM
[QUOTE=Nwcid;6153128]As an instructor I guess I dont understand this. When I teach classes (medical stuff) I have a price for the class which covers all my cost including "helpers". My job (that I was hired for) is to give them the best information and hands on training to help them pass the class. Tips are not for doing ones job. Tips are for people who go above and beyond expectations. I would never dream of accepting tips for my classes but I have got cards and that is very much appreciated. Also the fact of knowing students pass there classes is the reward.


Now if I was going way out of my way and putting in lots of extra time outside of class or similar I would consider taking compensation for that since that is not part of the actual class.







Couldn't agree more. Never got a tip for teaching Band or playing a clarinet gig. I also agree completely with Devon Diver as I too never understood the U.S.' "assumed" tipping and I grew up there (same in Canada anyway). If I manage to get a DM gig or 2 this summer I may turn hypocrite and change my tune....

black_sea
December 19th, 2011, 05:34 AM
POST THE SHOPS NAME SO OTHERS DO NOT GO THERE! this is a disgusting practice, WTF, doubling the price by the end of the course.
Sorry for yelling, but this is simply unacceptable.

Bubbletrubble
December 19th, 2011, 05:51 AM
There are other ways that the instructor could have conveyed to the students that a "show of gratitude" would be appreciated. Examples might include: a cash tip, giving a gift card (e.g., to the local dive shop, local sporting goods store, local coffee shop), giving a useful piece of dive gear, buying/making lunch, bringing snacks, giving some other thoughtful present, etc.

Telling students to tip the DM $60 is presumptuous, in my opinion.

Most of the DMs here in San Diego get paid a very low wage (minimum wage?) for the hours they are helping out a class. Depending on where they live and the kind of car they drive, it might cover the cost of gas. Essentially, it's volunteer work. Air fills are provided gratis. Their fees for boat dives are comped. If the DM is lucky, his dive shop will give him access to Keyman discounts on dive gear. Sometimes, if the shop likes the DM, he'll be given a discount on instructor training (if that's what he wants to do). The understanding is that, after instructor certification, he will work for the shop.

CamG
December 19th, 2011, 09:08 AM
Greetings Wahooinit and interesting feedback.
There is a lot of work that goes into a OW class when done right.
A DM can make or break some students not to take away from the Instructors responsibility or candor but they can and do make a difference.
I have been around the training scene both sides of this issue, tips are nice but the instructor never solicited them nor would any of the Dms.

There were many times after training that the Instructor would praise us take us out to eat, etc.
None of us ever felt slighted or not appreciated one bit.
What we did not necessarily get in tips we more than made up for by gaining experience, outrageous deals on gear and advanced training.
This past season I assisted with one class and they tipped and very well I should say.
I was awe struck and could not believe the generosity.

Tips are great but not required unless the DM is treated like a tank totter physical labor and or extra ordinary circumstances.
That being said there are DMs out there who are more like AIs and they not only work around the training but take part in the training.
These DMs are working twice as much and if you are pleased then by all means tip them as you see fit.

The only issue I can see with the Instructor suggesting 20% is that he specified the comment.
Possibly the DM does not get gear deals and or not gratuity from the Instructor.
Either way it is up to the customer to decide whether to tip or not.

I receive tips at work for doing extra or going above and beyond the required service so Why Not?
I can assure you they are appreciated very much!

Enjoy your training and be safe.

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

giantfan
December 19th, 2011, 09:28 AM
Here in NY every Deli or corner store you go into they have a "Tip" cup on the counter it is ridiculous.


Yup.... got one in my Deli too.

Sorry that you feel that it is ridiculous.

It was put there after many customers asked for it...they want to tip the girls behind the grill for good service. No one is expected to tip, but some people actually want to tip for good service. I know I do....

T... To
I... Insure
P... proper
S... Service

A lot of times I will tip a person at the beginning of their service, the amount that is customary... then if they do a really good job I wil give them some additional money. If they do a crap job, I don't come back.

DivemasterDennis
December 19th, 2011, 11:45 AM
I have functioned for many years as a DM assisting in open water, advanced open water and other training. I never expect a tip, but I always welcome it. I do it because I love to. I meet my quota for a certain number of classes and I get a 20% discount from my lds. I buy a lot of gear, so that ends up being pretty good pay. I am also often "tipped by instructors," but not all the time. I have been tipped many times by students. I always say thank you, and keep the tips. I think students should tip when any of the following are present:
the DM retrieved a piece of gear you dropped or lost (even if it was rental gear)
the DM spent one on one time with you and was effective in resolving a problem you were having
the DM carried heavy equipment for you due to you inability to do so yourself.
I alos am a DM who has led divers on dives at different places on the planet. There, I expect to be tipped. I expect it becasue Igive good service- hauling and setting up tanks, answering questions, fixing things, retrieving dropped weights or cameras or other stuff, etc. Tipping should be based on service. As a rule, depending upon level of service, 5 dollars per tank, plus or minus a couple dollars, is very much appreciated.
DivemasterDennis

EastEndDiver
December 19th, 2011, 12:17 PM
Why doesn't the instructor just charge an additional $60. for the course then he can give the DM $60. per student? The way he is doing it will turn a lot of people off and make them think he is doing a "bait and switch" type thing or whatever you care to call it.

I know I don't like suprises like that when buying something,knowing the FULL cost up front gives me the option of either accepting it or not, once I accept it I have no one to blame but myself if I think I paid too much.

Centrals
December 19th, 2011, 09:37 PM
T... To
I... Insure
P... proper
S... Service

I would call it a bribe not a tip.
A proper service is to be expected rather than after "lubrication". And it is an insult to the receiver as well as you are doubting his/her 'willingness" to provide you with an "proper" service.

EastEndDiver
December 20th, 2011, 10:28 AM
Yup.... got one in my Deli too.

Sorry that you feel that it is ridiculous.

It was put there after many customers asked for it...they want to tip the girls behind the grill for good service. No one is expected to tip, but some people actually want to tip for good service. I know I do....

T... To
I... Insure
P... proper
S... Service

A lot of times I will tip a person at the beginning of their service, the amount that is customary... then if they do a really good job I wil give them some additional money. If they do a crap job, I don't come back.


I am usually a big tipper,having worked in the Restuarant business I know that tips are the bulk of most waitstaff salary,I would NEVER tip before any service provided because if the service sucks they may get nothing(I have done that and always explain why to the manager ).I have a problem tipping someone in a Deli who pours me a cup of coffee or hands me a buttered bagel over the counter or makes me a sandwich.I know of one Deli where the owner when he saw the tip cup told the employees to take it down and if they didn't like the amount they were being payed they could find employement somewhere else,no one quit and he apologized to his customers.

I always tip heavy on dive boats in the Caribbean where the DM's are helpful and cheery and make the experience fun.I have never tipped on a Northeast dive boat because the job of the DM/mate is to tie the anchor in and then release it nothing more.Usually they dive for free also the usually briefing is ...name of wreck.....depth....pool is open.......You're on your own from the moment you step on the boat till you depart.

giantfan
December 20th, 2011, 10:56 AM
I have a problem tipping someone in a Deli who pours me a cup of coffee or hands me a buttered bagel over the counter or makes me a sandwich.I know of one Deli where the owner when he saw the tip cup told the employees to take it down and if they didn't like the amount they were being payed they could find employement somewhere else,no one quit and he apologized to his customers.

As I stated.... the customers were the ones asking for the tip jar. When I first opened, I told my employees that there was no tip cup allowed... it was only after many requests from my customers that I placed one on the deli counter. Coffee is self serve as well as buttered rolls. My employees are making food at the grill.

If you don't like to give them a tip.... then don't it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other, But as one customer who feels like it is a slap in the face to have a tip cup there I am not going to over ride the many people that have requested it. By the way, I have never had anyone ever say anthing negative about the tip cup and my deli is in a blue collar town where people aren't afraid to speak their minds.

All I am trying to say in this derail is..... don't take the tip cup so personally. It's not directed towards you.... if you wan't to leave a tip there is a place for it.... if not.... don't leave a tip.


Now as far as tipping before any service.... try it one day, I bet you get much better service..... and remember, you get what you pay for! ;-)

beaverdivers
December 20th, 2011, 11:31 AM
As an instructor trainer and store owner, the question of tipping leads to interesting discussions.

In this specific case, I believe it was inappropriate. A person giving service should NEVER ask for a tip.

In general due to the fact that an instructor or DM is giving service, a tip may be appropriate.

Compared to ski instructors, dive instructors and DM are drastically under tipped.

Furthermore, dive instructors and DM are under payed for their efforts.

The dive industry has a lack of professionalism. We do not charge near enough for training.

oly5050user
December 20th, 2011, 12:14 PM
Why doesn't the instructor just charge an additional $60. for the course then he can give the DM $60. per student? The way he is doing it will turn a lot of people off and make them think he is doing a "bait and switch" type thing or whatever you care to call it.


probably because the instr/ld is afraid to charge what the true value is because the facility down the block who teach's inferior course in a facility that is inferior (barely has a "classroom" does not own a pool on site but tries to rent one and gets thrown out for non payment to the pool owners) is charging less...consumer usually does not know this,just knows this place is $20. less!! Want a experience like that where you do a classroom one place then drive 30min to a pool that may you may be locked out of when you show up, and have very limited pool time, to save $20?? NOT to say all facilities that rent pools are bad.MANY are VERY good.But when you have a choice of a one stop facility that has a pool on site and instructors who have an average of 15 years teaching experience, and they teach 2-4 courses a month or more, vs a place that has no pool and instructors have little experience and teach maybe 2 ow classes a year, which do you as a consumer choose??
YES tips are appreciated and at times actually expected. Some students learn a skill after 1 demonstration and 1 attempt and do it repeatedly correct after that.BUT when I have a student who needs 2 sessions just on mask clearing or some other simple skill that others in the same class get immediately and he/she needs additional 1 to 1 time from a instructor/dm throughout the course they really SHOULD realize they received extra attention and SHOULD tip without being asked.. Maybe we as instructors should limit the number of attempts we have a individual uses in a group class setting and not hold up the rest of the class time for a student who cannot perform.Advise that kind of student that we cannot continue with them in a group setting as they use up too much of the time others in the class paid for and charge that student appropriately for private time.Tough call ..I usually just continue with the session and keep class moving.I inform the slow student that they need to improve before being allowed to go on ow training dives. I may even advise them to show appreciation in the form of a tip to my assistant who maybe working on the side of the pool with them to succeed.If they do not give the assistant a tip at the end of the night I know I must charge them a fee after they fail the initial group course time for private session time if they wish to continue. If they reward my assistant then I offer a reasonable time for them to get with the program at no charge,if they do NOT tip assistant then I simply recycle them into next group course usually at no charge.
They pay for a course,not a certification, they have to EARN a certification.

Nwcid
December 20th, 2011, 12:48 PM
I think part of this problem of when to tip comes from so many different ways to get your OW cert.

In the case of people saying the DM is not getting paid, how is a student to know this? I would assume that when I pay for a class that it is to cover the costs, including instructors.........

For my class there was 6 people in the pool sessions and we had one instructor. We picked up all of our gear at the shop and took it to the offsite pool took it in and set it all up as instructed how to do so properly. So in this case I paid for a group class and got that. If I wanted more one on one we would have paid for a private class. We did the same thing when we did the OW portion.

Now it sounds like other classes are very different and in that case a tip might be appropriate.

TMHeimer
December 20th, 2011, 01:57 PM
Yes, customers generally would figure all class costs are covered by the fee. At OW 6 years ago I thought the DM ranked above the Instructor. Who whould know unless told. oly, your info. puts in perspective the problems faced by classroom school teachers these days.

lsorenson
December 20th, 2011, 03:28 PM
I tip because I want to NOT because I need to... I have discussed tipping in the past and I am of the belief that the restaurant, cab company, hotel maid, or barber should be paid properly and not by me... That said, I tip very well!

FYI, I tipped my DM and assistant in the form of a couple of liter bottles of Jim Beam...!

lee

PS I wonder if those who expect tips; tip and McDonalds or Starbucks....? I don't...

EastEndDiver
December 20th, 2011, 05:19 PM
HUH??

Where did the OP say anything about inferior course,inferior facility,barely a classroom,non payment to pool owners,etc.,etc.????
Maybe I missed the OP complaining about that?
Maybe I missed the OP saying his GF needed extra pool or class work and did not keep up with the others?
Did the OP mention the facility this took place at?






probably because the instr/ld is afraid to charge what the true value is because the facility down the block who teach's inferior course in a facility that is inferior (barely has a "classroom" does not own a pool on site but tries to rent one and gets thrown out for non payment to the pool owners) is charging less...consumer usually does not know this,just knows this place is $20. less!! Want a experience like that where you do a classroom one place then drive 30min to a pool that may you may be locked out of when you show up, and have very limited pool time, to save $20?? NOT to say all facilities that rent pools are bad.MANY are VERY good.But when you have a choice of a one stop facility that has a pool on site and instructors who have an average of 15 years teaching experience, and they teach 2-4 courses a month or more, vs a place that has no pool and instructors have little experience and teach maybe 2 ow classes a year, which do you as a consumer choose??
YES tips are appreciated and at times actually expected. Some students learn a skill after 1 demonstration and 1 attempt and do it repeatedly correct after that.BUT when I have a student who needs 2 sessions just on mask clearing or some other simple skill that others in the same class get immediately and he/she needs additional 1 to 1 time from a instructor/dm throughout the course they really SHOULD realize they received extra attention and SHOULD tip without being asked.. Maybe we as instructors should limit the number of attempts we have a individual uses in a group class setting and not hold up the rest of the class time for a student who cannot perform.Advise that kind of student that we cannot continue with them in a group setting as they use up too much of the time others in the class paid for and charge that student appropriately for private time.Tough call ..I usually just continue with the session and keep class moving.I inform the slow student that they need to improve before being allowed to go on ow training dives. I may even advise them to show appreciation in the form of a tip to my assistant who maybe working on the side of the pool with them to succeed.If they do not give the assistant a tip at the end of the night I know I must charge them a fee after they fail the initial group course time for private session time if they wish to continue. If they reward my assistant then I offer a reasonable time for them to get with the program at no charge,if they do NOT tip assistant then I simply recycle them into next group course usually at no charge.
They pay for a course,not a certification, they have to EARN a certification.

oly5050user
December 20th, 2011, 07:57 PM
HUH??

Where did the OP say anything about inferior course,inferior facility,barely a classroom,non payment to pool owners,etc.,etc.????
Maybe I missed the OP complaining about that?
Maybe I missed the OP saying his GF needed extra pool or class work and did not keep up with the others?
Did the OP mention the facility this took place at?

No the OP said nothing about inferior course /facility or such..Just using an example of what typically happens at some locations.
OP requested tip info and I provided examples of why they should and the steps many instr's/Dm's take to insure success for their students and are not rewarded for the extra effort and longer time it takes.Seems the students who are the most troublesome in learning skills are the ones who do not appreciate /show appreciation (tip), for the extra effort the staff has done for them.
I probably went off on a tangent and rambled too long on this..Sorry for going too long..

highdesert
December 20th, 2011, 08:16 PM
Sorry ... there's no better way to get me to reduce or even eliminate a tip than to direct me to tip, and state the amount, no less. In the OP's instance, I think that was an absolutely wrong approach, IMHO. I've also been places where boatmen, resort help, etc., tell me that they'll "see me" on the last day of the trip in case I "have something" for them ... that does nothing but rub me the wrong way. This is not to say I have anything against voluntarily tipping a reasonable amount for the service, in the right situation, if it's deserved.

Bubbletrubble
December 20th, 2011, 11:20 PM
YES tips are appreciated and at times actually expected. Some students learn a skill after 1 demonstration and 1 attempt and do it repeatedly correct after that.BUT when I have a student who needs 2 sessions just on mask clearing or some other simple skill that others in the same class get immediately and he/she needs additional 1 to 1 time from a instructor/dm throughout the course they really SHOULD realize they received extra attention and SHOULD tip without being asked.. Maybe we as instructors should limit the number of attempts we have a individual uses in a group class setting and not hold up the rest of the class time for a student who cannot perform.Advise that kind of student that we cannot continue with them in a group setting as they use up too much of the time others in the class paid for and charge that student appropriately for private time.Tough call ..I usually just continue with the session and keep class moving.I inform the slow student that they need to improve before being allowed to go on ow training dives. I may even advise them to show appreciation in the form of a tip to my assistant who maybe working on the side of the pool with them to succeed.If they do not give the assistant a tip at the end of the night I know I must charge them a fee after they fail the initial group course time for private session time if they wish to continue. If they reward my assistant then I offer a reasonable time for them to get with the program at no charge,if they do NOT tip assistant then I simply recycle them into next group course usually at no charge.
Should a teacher expect a "tip" for spending some extra time helping out a student?

TMHeimer
December 20th, 2011, 11:50 PM
Should a teacher expect a "tip" for spending some extra time helping out a student?

I don't know. I never expected or received one as a Band teacher. But occupations vary. (classroom school) teacher vs. scuba instructor/DM. Different situations, different pay (I think), different expectations.

oly5050user
December 21st, 2011, 11:14 AM
Should a teacher expect a "tip" for spending some extra time helping out a student?
Teachers are PAID to spend extra time helping a student.
When a student signs up for a relatively cheap OW course in a group setting and does not progress at the same speed as the rest of the class and requires additional help from the instructor or DM if there is one assisting YES the student should tip.
Some classes tip generously,even if they had absolutely no issues in the course work and others expect you to work with them for hours at NO pay for them to succeed.
Standard time for our ow course is usually around 16 to 18 hours for a weekend schedule class.That is what the instructor is paid for in a group class setting. Maybe from now on,knowing the students in question will not tip, instructors should just continue the class at a rate that just everyone else in the class can do and allow problem child to continue with the group.
At end of course time inform problem child that they cannot meet standards established by agency and if they wish to continue they can PAY for private time,being that they most likely will not tip.Instructors are underpaid as it is.Would any of you like to stay after a 8 hour work day at your jobs and not be compensated for it?? Instructors must realize that this is a business,yes it is a passion for many and that is great,but after all the bubbles are gone how do you pay the bills? Do you not feel taken advantage of or used like a cheap date?
Perhaps put a statement in the student learning agreement before a course starts that if they cannot keep up this-private time at a cost$$ would be an option.

James R
December 21st, 2011, 11:39 AM
T... To
I... Insure
P... proper
S... Service


Should be "TEPS" then since the proper word to use would be ensure in this case ;)

I completely avoid working with classes as a DM if at all possible. The only exception is if I am working the charter and it's got classes only booked on it. Its rare to make any tips from classes, and I don't even expect to.

I would say that most OW students probably have no idea how much (or how little) a DM is actually doing in a class b/c they're too focused on what they are doing and don't have the experience or awareness to see...

Bubbletrubble
December 21st, 2011, 12:26 PM
Teachers are PAID to spend extra time helping a student.
When a student signs up for a relatively cheap OW course in a group setting and does not progress at the same speed as the rest of the class and requires additional help from the instructor or DM if there is one assisting YES the student should tip.
Some classes tip generously,even if they had absolutely no issues in the course work and others expect you to work with them for hours at NO pay for them to succeed.
Standard time for our ow course is usually around 16 to 18 hours for a weekend schedule class.That is what the instructor is paid for in a group class setting. Maybe from now on,knowing the students in question will not tip, instructors should just continue the class at a rate that just everyone else in the class can do and allow problem child to continue with the group.
At end of course time inform problem child that they cannot meet standards established by agency and if they wish to continue they can PAY for private time,being that they most likely will not tip.Instructors are underpaid as it is.Would any of you like to stay after a 8 hour work day at your jobs and not be compensated for it?? Instructors must realize that this is a business,yes it is a passion for many and that is great,but after all the bubbles are gone how do you pay the bills? Do you not feel taken advantage of or used like a cheap date?
Perhaps put a statement in the student learning agreement before a course starts that if they cannot keep up this-private time at a cost$$ would be an option.
Reading between the lines, it doesn't sound like you are happy being a scuba instructor. I'm sorry about that.

boulderjohn
December 21st, 2011, 01:00 PM
I found this thread fascinating because it really brought home to me how different are the ways instructors and DMs are paid across the nation and the world. People who are responding are generally responding based upon the ways with which they are familiar, which may not be anything like the ways people are paid elsewhere.

Where I work, there are very few independent instructors. Almost all work for shops. They have no say over how much students are charged, how much DMs are paid, or how much they themselves are paid. Some of the people in this thread have said that the instructor should pay the DM more per student than the instructors here are paid themselves. When I was a DM, my pay was MUCH less than minimum wage. As an instructor, it is not much more. The reason to do it is for perks such as discounts on gear, air fills, personal use of equipment too expensive to purchase, etc.

So why don't I (or others) go independent? Because the overhead for instruction (pool rental, student gear, gear maintenance, advertising, etc.) is too much for us to afford. The shops generally operate instruction as a loss leader to get students into the shop to purchase gear. The standard price for instruction is thus something that anyone not selling gear cannot match.

In such cases, the instructor really cannot pay the DMs anything beyond what the shop is paying them, which may be next to nothing.

j yaeger
December 21st, 2011, 07:36 PM
perks!!!!!
and don't forget all the chicks!!!!!!!
70 yr old "laverne" gave me a $10 tip for cutting the classroom short...
"i'd rather be squaredancing,ya know!!'
it's all good
yaeg

Phil_C
December 21st, 2011, 07:58 PM
T... To
I... Insure
P... proper
S... Service



I'm afraid that I can't agree with this acronym at all, I expect to pay a fair price for goods or services and that the 'fair price' includes proper service. I don't expect to be quoted a price for a shoddy service and have to give a tip to ensure I get proper service - that is what I am paying for in the first place.

I also don't understand this culture that you have to tip or you won't get good service, and that it is acceptable to pay staff less and to factor tips in to an empoyees wages, to me this is appalling - in my last post I employed 130 staff, every one was paid the rate for their role and not expected to make up their wages with tips, and every one was expected to provide good customer service as a requirement of their job, not at the whim of whether they were tipped or not.

Sorry - rant over, but then I am from the UK where tipping is nowhere near as common, although it is starting to creep in.

And no I didn't tip after my CMAS 1* course, I paid a fair and appropriate fee for it. But I did buy the instructor a silver dolphin broach for her birthday, because I wanted to, as thanks for the great instructions and friendship she gave me.

hypertech
December 21st, 2011, 08:05 PM
The instructor or the shop should be covering the DM - unless these are open water boat dives and the DM is crew. Then, I could see expecting a tip.

I'm a DM and when I help with classes, I'm paid by the instructor - just about enough to hope to break even on the costs to participate in the class and have a little bit to throw towards the insurance costs. Really, unless your class is really big or you paid a lot, your instructor isn't netting out much either.

While I don't expect a tip, I am given one occasionally and graciously accept it. More often it is from a scuba review student when I am leading the class rather than an open water student. Although not too long ago, an open water student brought in little bags of baked treats for myself and the other instructors and DMs that helped their class. It was very much appreciated. In other words, being nice, just saying thank you, or offering some token of your appreciation is a nice appreciated thing to do if can't or don't want to tip in cash.

dmoore19
December 21st, 2011, 08:11 PM
When I did OW I did not tip, I don't think anyone in my class did. I did however buy lunch for the instructor and gave the instructor and the DM a bottle of my hand crafted wine after the OW dives were completed. The instructor and DM still remember me and the wine.

oly5050user
December 21st, 2011, 09:13 PM
Reading between the lines, it doesn't sound like you are happy being a scuba instructor. I'm sorry about that.
Very happy to be an instructor who can easily pay his insurance/fees without complaining about it..Too many instructors give their time away for free thinking they are saving the world and then complain about the costs of being an instructor. People in this industry should get realistic and start charging what they are worth and getting paid accordingly.The business model of low cost instruction as a lead in to gear sales is gone.The internet is one reason and the airlines charging for checked bags is another. Too many people get certified and never purchase gear,they rent at the location they fly to. I have certified over 1,000 students over the years and still going. For myself I am teaching more than ever before. Many of those I taught are instructors themselves now and a few own their own stores. I am paid a fair amount by the LDS and it is what the market will bear for the area. I will not teach someone for nothing. If they cannot learn in the scheduled amount of time set out for the course that they paid for then they can pay me or the LDS for additional time they require.
No one should work for free.

mheaster
December 21st, 2011, 09:22 PM
When "working" as a Divemaster with my Mentor Instructor, I think I was given a tip by a student once and I was quite shocked. My Instructor Buddy did very often "quietly" cover my Quarry Entrance fees and air as often as it was feasible and even slipped me a $20 occasionally to cover a little bit of my gas(oline). I was grateful for opportunity to dive and continue my diving experience/education.

I did a lot of leg work in staking out a gear staging dive site area by setting out a tarp (earlier than Student arrival. Humping tanks to start day and for fills during day.

I can understand if I did the majority of my tasks before and after students arrived/departed and if everything else went right during classes, it would appear to the Students as I was not doing much (just hovering around watching).

I do not approve of telling people to tip, nor telling people how much to tip. (I will provide an opinion of what I think are suitable tips only if brought up by student and pressed for an answer. Often I would simply state to tip what they feel is appropriate, which is always the right decision) It infuriates me when a restaurant calculates and adds a mandatory tip to a check!

I do mention to classes in my to thank my Divemaster/s for their hard work in support of their class and feel that in addition to an occasional free lunch, discounted/free diving and air and additional experience working with classes and making the acquaintance of an occasional new dive buddy friend; my divermasters are receiving satisfactory albeit modest compensation for their services.

I also quietly mention to my groups about fairly common practice of tipping mates on Dive Charter Boats if they feel their services were beneficial and/or appreciated. Some of them also work very hard to make sure their diver clients enjoy themselves on a charter trip!

I feel that providing these bits of diver etiquette are very appropriate Open Water Diver topics that are just not specified in classroom materials.

Bubbletrubble
December 21st, 2011, 10:17 PM
If they cannot learn in the scheduled amount of time set out for the course that they paid for then they can pay me or the LDS for additional time they require.
Do you make this policy clear to all of the people before they sign up for a class with you? If so, then I suppose at least they would know what they were getting themselves into. Under such circumstances, I would think that the student would feel significant pressure to "get" the skills as quickly as possible and move onto the next one.

To be honest (and I'm not saying this to be mean at all), if I were a prospective basic OW student, I don't think I would want to sign up for a group/semi-private/private class with an instructor who articulated a position such as yours. The primary focus seems to be on the instructor getting paid...rather than doing what it takes to develop a safe, confident, competent diver.

RonFrank
December 22nd, 2011, 01:13 AM
Getting certified runs about $500 in our area. There are no tips in that price nor should there be. We did buy our instructors dinner.

Tipping in the USA has become way too commonplace and this seems to be growing. IMO its so cheap business owners can get away with not paying the staff, and that is BS. Just because you interact with the public should not mean that you need to tip. Do we tip sales folks, store clerks, or cashiers? No. But wait staff and hair dressers yes. Why? Because long ago tips became common place in these professions and the industries stopped paying a real wage. That is wrong, and I wish it never happened.

Let's not model the dive industry from the food service industry. Unfortunately DM's work as part of their training, which opened the door for free DM's. Just keep a supply in training, and there is a work force that is not only free, but paying. So DM's can never hope to see a wage.

Instructors were paid $25 for classroom/pool and $25 for OW checkout dives per student. That has likely gone up as I have not been paying attention but still, not much. The irony is the instructors do most of the work, and the LDS does very little. What the instructors don't do is handled by the retail staff. Basically ensure the paperwork is complete and the money is collected. The LDS owners supply the facilities and set the prices.

I honestly don't understand how a $500 class can loose money. A1 scuba handles 1000 new students a year or did in 2004. That's $500,000 in gross profit annually. The shops say it's a loss leader. I would love to see the numbers behind this loss..... and the new students also buy the lions share of new equipment.

hypertech
December 22nd, 2011, 09:37 AM
Do you make this policy clear to all of the people before they sign up for a class with you? If so, then I suppose at least they would know what they were getting themselves into. Under such circumstances, I would think that the student would feel significant pressure to "get" the skills as quickly as possible and move onto the next one.

To be honest (and I'm not saying this to be mean at all), if I were a prospective basic OW student, I don't think I would want to sign up for a group/semi-private/private class with an instructor who articulated a position such as yours. The primary focus seems to be on the instructor getting paid...rather than doing what it takes to develop a safe, confident, competent diver.

Why should they need to? If you can't finish in the time allotted, why shouldn't you expect to pay for extra instructor/pool time?

Anytime you are hiring someone to provide a service, if you need more time, you expect to pay more.

Its not a bad idea to be clear about it upfront, but I don't think it would be surprising to be expected to pay for extra time if you need extra time. Now, if that heads towards people never finishing on time and always having to pay more, then thats a separate issue. I'm assuming this is the scenario of the student here and there that needs a little more and not the norm.

oly5050user
December 22nd, 2011, 10:23 AM
Getting certified runs about $500 in our area. There are no tips in that price nor should there be. We did buy our instructors dinner.

Tipping in the USA has become way too commonplace and this seems to be growing. IMO its so cheap business owners can get away with not paying the staff, and that is BS. Just because you interact with the public should not mean that you need to tip. Do we tip sales folks, store clerks, or cashiers? No. But wait staff and hair dressers yes. Why? Because long ago tips became common place in these professions and the industries stopped paying a real wage. That is wrong, and I wish it never happened.

Let's not model the dive industry from the food service industry. Unfortunately DM's work as part of their training, which opened the door for free DM's. Just keep a supply in training, and there is a work force that is not only free, but paying. So DM's can never hope to see a wage.

Instructors were paid $25 for classroom/pool and $25 for OW checkout dives per student. That has likely gone up as I have not been paying attention but still, not much. The irony is the instructors do most of the work, and the LDS does very little. What the instructors don't do is handled by the retail staff. Basically ensure the paperwork is complete and the money is collected. The LDS owners supply the facilities and set the prices.

I honestly don't understand how a $500 class can loose money. A1 scuba handles 1000 new students a year or did in 2004. That's $500,000 in gross profit annually. The shops say it's a loss leader. I would love to see the numbers behind this loss..... and the new students also buy the lions share of new equipment.
Tips are there for someone to show appreciation for a service.Many times a instr may go to extra lengths to get a student to a level that they can be certified. The instructor may be getting paid on a per head or course basis and is not compensated for the extra time it may take.Definitely deserves a tip. If the cost of the course is raised to accomodate the extra time that may be involved then EVERYONE pays a higher fee to learn to dive.Is it fair to he people who "get it" 1st time around as 98% of my students do? To pay an instructor $25. to comlete academic/pool sessions for a course is an insult to the instructor.That comes out to like $6. an hour just to do module 1 alone...Instructors should be paid hourly.This way he/she does their job correctly without fear of not making any money for the time spent.If a student required excessively more time than what a group class requires,that person should be charged for it on a private basis.

Zeagle Eagle
December 22nd, 2011, 12:07 PM
You should do a good job, because it is the right thing to do. If you don't like your pay then get a job that pays more.

TMHeimer
December 22nd, 2011, 02:03 PM
Why should they need to? If you can't finish in the time allotted, why shouldn't you expect to pay for extra instructor/pool time?

Anytime you are hiring someone to provide a service, if you need more time, you expect to pay more.

Its not a bad idea to be clear about it upfront, but I don't think it would be surprising to be expected to pay for extra time if you need extra time. Now, if that heads towards people never finishing on time and always having to pay more, then thats a separate issue. I'm assuming this is the scenario of the student here and there that needs a little more and not the norm.

Yeah I agree. I think what oly5050 is saying is that it depends on the dregree of the problem. If someone has trouble with a particular skill there is the DM to help. If someone has difficulty with a lot of skills or starting diving in general (fears of some sort), this would go beyond resonable time the instructor or DM has to spend with them. In school, the teacher usually will spend time after hours helping slow students. But if the student is failing too many things, they must repeat the grade--the teacher isn't going to private tutor him for hours and hours.

hypertech
December 22nd, 2011, 02:12 PM
You should do a good job, because it is the right thing to do. If you don't like your pay then get a job that pays more.

rofl, because people are in the scuba training business for the excessive profits.

I do it because I enjoy it and I enjoy introducing people to the sport. A tip in the form of a $20, a gold star, or just a - Hey, thanks a lot for your help, we had a good time, let's me know my efforts are worth while.

Bubbletrubble
December 22nd, 2011, 03:18 PM
Anytime you are hiring someone to provide a service, if you need more time, you expect to pay more.

I disagree. It really depends on the terms of payment to which both parties agree for the service(s) rendered.
Some people are paid for services on a per-job basis. They are paid the same if the job takes 1 unit of time to complete...or 10 units of time.
Some people are paid for services per unit time spent on the job.

When it comes to scuba training, I wouldn't naturally expect to have to pay more for a little extra practice with the instructor. Perhaps my expectations may be attributed to the way in which scuba instruction is advertised in my neck of the woods -- cost per student. If it were advertised as cost per hour until skill proficiency is achieved, then I suppose I would expect to pay more in the event I took longer than the class-allotted time.

vladodessit
December 22nd, 2011, 06:46 PM
Tips are there for someone to show appreciation for a service.Many times a instr may go to extra lengths to get a student to a level that they can be certified. The instructor may be getting paid on a per head or course basis and is not compensated for the extra time it may take.Definitely deserves a tip. If the cost of the course is raised to accomodate the extra time that may be involved then EVERYONE pays a higher fee to learn to dive.Is it fair to he people who "get it" 1st time around as 98% of my students do? To pay an instructor $25. to comlete academic/pool sessions for a course is an insult to the instructor.That comes out to like $6. an hour just to do module 1 alone...Instructors should be paid hourly.This way he/she does their job correctly without fear of not making any money for the time spent.If a student required excessively more time than what a group class requires,that person should be charged for it on a private basis.Pay is for the end result, in my opinion. I am a dentist. You come with severe pain to the office. Tooth needs to be taken out. I charge you certain fees. Let's say $150, what is 50 percentile UCR (usual and customary) fee for the area, so it's competetive, not too high, not too low. We agree. I anesthetise you, as per usual procedure. When I start taking out a tooth you start screaming and swinging you arms. It turns out you have a phobia of dentists since childhood and some pressure feeling makes you scared and you cannot control yourself at this point. I anesthetise you some more, using more advanced techniques. You still scream and don't let me do it even admitting that it doesn't hurt, you are just scared. After spending 1 hour trying to calm you down we figure it won't work. I prescribe you pain killers and medication to make you calm with instructions on how to use prior to you next appointment. Meanwhile, Ms. Smith, who has been a nice patient of the practice for many years, left due to waiting for me for too long. She left very upset and told front staff that she will find another dentist and will tell all her friends not to come to my office.

You come next time, a bit sedated. I anesthetise you again. I start taking the tooth out, you don't scream but still jerk a little. Due to your sharp movement I break the root. I have to open your gums, drill out some bone and take out remaining piece, put sutures. All of it through a stressfull time with you jerking your head around uncontrolably, shaking your legs so that the whole chair is moving, asking for a break every 5 seconds. We are finally done. Now I have couple of questions:

1. What will happen if I tell you at this point that $150 will not cover the procedure since it was much more difficult and time consuming then I anticipated?
2. Will you tip me and/or my staff?

vladodessit
December 22nd, 2011, 07:49 PM
Oh, I just thought of another analogy that had to do with dental office. How about this:

You come to the dental office. Nice lady meets you, takes you to the room. Room is clean and setup with sterile instruments for your procedure. Lady is reassuring you that it will not be as bad as you think. She talks to you trying to take your mind of procedure. She holds your hand during the injections, is very careful with suction w/o sucking your tongue into it, wipes you face with during the procedure, jokes with you to relax you. After the procedure instead of sending you to the mirror she is carefully cleans your face from residue of procedure with wet towel. Then she brings you warmed up moist towel to put on your jaw muscles, so they stop hurting from keeping open. On your next appointment it all repeats but she also remembers you by name, remembers you like SCUBA and talks about it. Or, she is also CPR certified, trained in BLS and would be the one to perform CPR in case you collapse in the office for whatever reason.

Now questions:
1. Should you tip her?
2. Would your opinion change if you found out she is paid minimum wage due to saturated job market?
3. How about if you found out she is not getting paid since she is on her internship and has to work for a month for free to get her diploma?

oly5050user
December 22nd, 2011, 10:30 PM
Oh, I just thought of another analogy that had to do with dental office. How about this:

You come to the dental office. Nice lady meets you, takes you to the room. Room is clean and setup with sterile instruments for your procedure. Lady is reassuring you that it will not be as bad as you think. She talks to you trying to take your mind of procedure. She holds your hand during the injections, is very careful with suction w/o sucking your tongue into it, wipes you face with during the procedure, jokes with you to relax you. After the procedure instead of sending you to the mirror she is carefully cleans your face from residue of procedure with wet towel. Then she brings you warmed up moist towel to put on your jaw muscles, so they stop hurting from keeping open. On your next appointment it all repeats but she also remembers you by name, remembers you like SCUBA and talks about it. Or, she is also CPR certified, trained in BLS and would be the one to perform CPR in case you collapse in the office for whatever reason.

Now questions:
1. Should you tip her?
2. Would your opinion change if you found out she is paid minimum wage due to saturated job market?
3. How about if you found out she is not getting paid since she is on her internship and has to work for a month for free to get her diploma?
How the hell can you compare a dentist or medical professional to a scuba instructor..That really is not comparing apples to oranges here. A dentist can make over $100,000. a year..most scuba instructors make less than $10,000. Even a scuba instructor working FULL time teaching a class EVERY day in a busy resort area makes less than $25,000. a year.
The instructor is paid to perform a service-teach a scuba course /skills over a period of time..if a student is slow or super klutz why should a instructor work longer hours with out being compensated,either in the form of a tip or hourly pay? We are not here to save the world and teach everyone to dive as some kind of evangelist,we show up on time and do a job..and would like to be compensated for it..I see a student drive their 2011 BMW convertible into the parking lot and then complain "Oh it too expensive a scuba course for $269." but they want private lessons one to one on their schedule,yeah right(I charge $600.for that level of service,acad and pool only-and very often get it) WTF I think as I stand there in my jeans and see my 14 year old jeep parked in the same lot..

k ellis
December 22nd, 2011, 11:12 PM
As a divemaster tips are appreciated but I never solicit tips. I guess I am old fashioned in that people have spent enough money as it is to just get certified. When you factor in the gas it takes to get to the dive site, the hotels, the cost of the certs and then their meals and everything they can easily be out over 600 dollars. I dont tip places where they over solicit the tips so I dont expect people to tip me when I do. If I go on a dive I tip generously when I am not given the riot act about how the divemaster will die if I dont.

Now its like scubaboard. I have seen divemasters come on here and bash people for not tipping. Never mind the fact a tip is a gratuity. Its a level of graciousness that the customer feels. If they feel you did a poor job they are not required to give you anything. However dont be shocked if when you return you dont get as top knotch service. Now when they tip you generously then you know you have done a job well done. And if you tip generously dont think it does not go unnoticed. You may get the red carpet next time around.

All in all I am content with a simple speach at the end such as "If you feel we did a good job and would like to show your appreciation we do have a tip jar located here" But never come to me and tell me that I have to give any set amount or that I have to give a tip. That to me is poor manners and gets at best a small tip.

dmoore19
December 22nd, 2011, 11:27 PM
Pay is for the end result, in my opinion. I am a dentist. You come with severe pain to the office. Tooth needs to be taken out. I charge you certain fees. Let's say $150, what is 50 percentile UCR (usual and customary) fee for the area, so it's competetive, not too high, not too low. We agree. I anesthetise you, as per usual procedure. When I start taking out a tooth you start screaming and swinging you arms. It turns out you have a phobia of dentists since childhood and some pressure feeling makes you scared and you cannot control yourself at this point. I anesthetise you some more, using more advanced techniques. You still scream and don't let me do it even admitting that it doesn't hurt, you are just scared. After spending 1 hour trying to calm you down we figure it won't work. I prescribe you pain killers and medication to make you calm with instructions on how to use prior to you next appointment. Meanwhile, Ms. Smith, who has been a nice patient of the practice for many years, left due to waiting for me for too long. She left very upset and told front staff that she will find another dentist and will tell all her friends not to come to my office.

You come next time, a bit sedated. I anesthetise you again. I start taking the tooth out, you don't scream but still jerk a little. Due to your sharp movement I break the root. I have to open your gums, drill out some bone and take out remaining piece, put sutures. All of it through a stressfull time with you jerking your head around uncontrolably, shaking your legs so that the whole chair is moving, asking for a break every 5 seconds. We are finally done. Now I have couple of questions:

1. What will happen if I tell you at this point that $150 will not cover the procedure since it was much more difficult and time consuming then I anticipated?
2. Will you tip me and/or my staff?

1. Do I have a choice? Probably not. You get paid.
2. No tip.

I am probably your worst nightmare . I can relate to the patient you described.

gcarter
December 22nd, 2011, 11:33 PM
As a divemaster tips are appreciated but I never solicit tips. I guess I am old fashioned in that people have spent enough money as it is to just get certified. When you factor in the gas it takes to get to the dive site, the hotels, the cost of the certs and then their meals and everything they can easily be out over 600 dollars. I dont tip places where they over solicit the tips so I dont expect people to tip me when I do. If I go on a dive I tip generously when I am not given the riot act about how the divemaster will die if I dont.

Now its like scubaboard. I have seen divemasters come on here and bash people for not tipping. Never mind the fact a tip is a gratuity. Its a level of graciousness that the customer feels. If they feel you did a poor job they are not required to give you anything. However dont be shocked if when you return you dont get as top knotch service. Now when they tip you generously then you know you have done a job well done. And if you tip generously dont think it does not go unnoticed. You may get the red carpet next time around.

All in all I am content with a simple speach at the end such as "If you feel we did a good job and would like to show your appreciation we do have a tip jar located here" But never come to me and tell me that I have to give any set amount or that I have to give a tip. That to me is poor manners and gets at best a small tip.

I sort of agree, it is just that I rarely see where tipping makes a positive difference, only where the lack of makes a negative one.

The reality that I experience with most service businesses where tipping has become expected is that not tipping gets you crappy service and tipping generally only gets you ok service. It is extremely rare to get "red carpet" anywhere, since most of use do not have the wallet to support TMZ-reported celebrity sized tips. It is an entitlement mentality.

I am squarely in the camp charge me a fair price and expect nothing else. I will reward exceptional service with a tip, not OK service.

If you can't afford to pay your employees a fair wage, then you aren't charging a fair price. That is not my problem, it is yours as an employer. Raise your prices to a fair level so you can pay a fair wage.

vladodessit
December 23rd, 2011, 12:53 AM
How the hell can you compare a dentist or medical professional to a scuba instructor..That really is not comparing apples to oranges here. A dentist can make over $100,000. a year..most scuba instructors make less than $10,000. Even a scuba instructor working FULL time teaching a class EVERY day in a busy resort area makes less than $25,000. a year.
The instructor is paid to perform a service-teach a scuba course /skills over a period of time..if a student is slow or super klutz why should a instructor work longer hours with out being compensated,either in the form of a tip or hourly pay? We are not here to save the world and teach everyone to dive as some kind of evangelist,we show up on time and do a job..and would like to be compensated for it..I see a student drive their 2011 BMW convertible into the parking lot and then complain "Oh it too expensive a scuba course for $269." but they want private lessons one to one on their schedule,yeah right(I charge $600.for that level of service,acad and pool only-and very often get it) WTF I think as I stand there in my jeans and see my 14 year old jeep parked in the same lot..
Don't take me wrong here. I am not saying it's comparable. I just gave a real life example of where I think tipping culture is wrong. Although, to become an instructor you didn't have to go to college/university for 6 years while paying in the neighborhood of half a million dollars for that (to be fair, I paid less, it was more then 10 years ago but while teaching in dental school recently I have seen students with loans in excess of half a mil; I volunteered, BTW, just to give back to the institution I felt was very fine at the time). And just to make sure, we are performing services too. And our time is valuable and overhead is very high. Why shouldn't I get paid if I have to deal with somebody with head issues, gives me hard time and takes away my time from others?

Also, if you noticed, my next post was about an assistant. They don't make tons of money. And they had to go to school and pay significant tuition for their education (for the level of pay, at least). Like somebody else in this thread said, if you are not happy with the fees, either raise them or seek different business.I'd love to be in SCUBA or sailing business but they don't provide (at least the common business model) the pay to satisfy my needs. This is why I do what I don't like as much (I didn't say I hate it, just don't like as much). If you do what you love, it may pay less but should, at least, leave you happy at the end of the day.

vladodessit
December 23rd, 2011, 01:12 AM
Oh, BTW, I did tip my OW instructor in Cabo (I think he was surprised). And I have very few dives, but on two day trips we took with my son, I tipped the crew on the boat. In my observation, more then most other divers. I did it due to crew being very nice and helpful to new divers (cannot recommend Sundiver Express enough, especially for novice divers in SoCal). Did they deserve the tips? No question. Will I tip in the future if I don't need as much help? Absolutely.

vladodessit
December 23rd, 2011, 01:18 AM
1. Do I have a choice? Probably not. You get paid.

Well, it doesn't work like this. Maybe you'd just do it. Most would raise hell and would complain to anyplace they could find in yellow pages, from local BBB to United Nations General assembly.

Why no tips?

Otherwise, don't worry. I haven't had nightmares since I was 10:) We'd deal with your fears and you'd be just fine.

Zeagle Eagle
March 8th, 2012, 05:56 PM
When does it end? Why don't you tip everyone that does a job for you. Bus Drivers, Pilots, your Doctor, grocery clerk, mail man, the guy at the McDonalds window. BS! Most of the dentists in my neighbor hood make more than a GP. The extraction that takes 5 minutes, more than makes up for the one that takes 1 hour. I am a capitalist and you should charge what the market will bear. I support that fully. That's why I go to Mexico to get my dental work done. Did you know that in certain parts of the world, if you don't tip the guy cutting your head off, it may take 6 or 7 whacks. Now, that's a guy I am going to tip. Tipping is an onerous and nasty practice and totally voluntary. I tip my DM and my Captain; but, don't whine and bitch when you don't get one. I reiterate, most of the Scuba Instructors are getting paid to do something they love. If you don't like the pay you are getting then raise your rates! I fail to see how someones low pay is my fault.

Not thanking someone that does a good job for you is just plain rude.

Zeagle Eagle
March 8th, 2012, 06:07 PM
Pay is for the end result, in my opinion. I am a dentist. You come with severe pain to the office. Tooth needs to be taken out. I charge you certain fees. Let's say $150, what is 50 percentile UCR (usual and customary) fee for the area, so it's competetive, not too high, not too low. We agree. I anesthetise you, as per usual procedure. When I start taking out a tooth you start screaming and swinging you arms. It turns out you have a phobia of dentists since childhood and some pressure feeling makes you scared and you cannot control yourself at this point. I anesthetise you some more, using more advanced techniques. You still scream and don't let me do it even admitting that it doesn't hurt, you are just scared. After spending 1 hour trying to calm you down we figure it won't work. I prescribe you pain killers and medication to make you calm with instructions on how to use prior to you next appointment. Meanwhile, Ms. Smith, who has been a nice patient of the practice for many years, left due to waiting for me for too long. She left very upset and told front staff that she will find another dentist and will tell all her friends not to come to my office.

You come next time, a bit sedated. I anesthetise you again. I start taking the tooth out, you don't scream but still jerk a little. Due to your sharp movement I break the root. I have to open your gums, drill out some bone and take out remaining piece, put sutures. All of it through a stressfull time with you jerking your head around uncontrolably, shaking your legs so that the whole chair is moving, asking for a break every 5 seconds. We are finally done. Now I have couple of questions:

1. What will happen if I tell you at this point that $150 will not cover the procedure since it was much more difficult and time consuming then I anticipated?
2. Will you tip me and/or my staff?
If it's in the contract that you have the patient sign then he should pay you. I have no problem paying for your service if I know up front it may cost extra and how much. If it's not in the contract and you charge by the job, then you are out of luck. I have no problem with a Scuba Instructor giving a price for x amount of hours/modules and if you don't complete in that time frame then it costs x dollars per hour more. In fact I think it is a great idea. Then instructors would not be tempted to let a sub par student pass.

Zeagle Eagle
March 8th, 2012, 06:14 PM
Tips are there for someone to show appreciation for a service.Many times a instr may go to extra lengths to get a student to a level that they can be certified. The instructor may be getting paid on a per head or course basis and is not compensated for the extra time it may take.Definitely deserves a tip. If the cost of the course is raised to accomodate the extra time that may be involved then EVERYONE pays a higher fee to learn to dive.Is it fair to he people who "get it" 1st time around as 98% of my students do? To pay an instructor $25. to comlete academic/pool sessions for a course is an insult to the instructor.That comes out to like $6. an hour just to do module 1 alone...Instructors should be paid hourly.This way he/she does their job correctly without fear of not making any money for the time spent.If a student required excessively more time than what a group class requires,that person should be charged for it on a private basis.

You know how much you are going to get ($25). For sure it is really low pay; but, you new that upfront. I fail to see how that is an insult. If you really think it is an insult then charge more for your services upfront. We all think we are underpaid, but I don't whine about it. I am not a Scuba Instructor because no one in their right mind would pay my hourly rate.

nes999
March 8th, 2012, 11:55 PM
i didnt tip my dm But i did buy his sandwitch after the last OW dive.

oly5050user
March 9th, 2012, 12:39 AM
I cannot understand why people do not offer a tip to the person who assisted them in learning to dive. People tip a bartender a dollar for simply pouring a drink People tip waiter/waitress 20% for taking a dinner order and simply bringing it to table.They did not even have to shop for it or cook it.
A DM or instructor will instruct you to survive in the water.If you screw up a DM /instr will jump in and save your sorry ass.Never mind all the preparations before a boat dive or class that need to be done.. Hell, a DM /instructor may even set up a grill at a dive site for surface interval hot dog/hamburger for you that they paid for out of their pocket. If at a classroom they may bring donuts/bagels/coffee that they paid for out of their pocket..
Why not reward this excellent caring customer service with a tip? Lets say ow class academics and confined water costs $269. In a class of 5 the instructor gets perhaps a total of $50. or less per student for close to spending up to 20 HOURS with you. I would think a tip of $10. per module (there are 5 in a PADI course would be appropriate and generous. Think about it, you tip a bartender easily $10. for drinks in 1 night, if not more..forget about the amount of tips at a "gentlemans club" that gets spread around.

TMHeimer
March 9th, 2012, 12:57 AM
[QUOTE=oly5050user;6253944]I cannot understand why people do not offer a tip to the person who assisted them in learning to dive. People tip a bartender a dollar for simply pouring a drink People tip waiter/waitress 20% for taking a dinner order and simply bringing it to table.They did not even have to shop for it or cook it.
A DM or instructor will instruct you to survive in the water.If you screw up a DM /instr will jump in and save your sorry ass.Never mind all the preparations before a boat dive or class that need to be done.. Hell, a DM /instructor may even set up a grill at a dive site for surface interval hot dog/hamburger for you that they paid for out of their pocket. If at a classroom they may bring donuts/bagels/coffee that they paid for out of their pocket..



Maybe I agree with you and tipping an instructor would make sense. But people don't tip teachers--any teachers (I was one)--including private music teachers, karate class teachers, etc. DMs on a boat and waitresses yes, but they are not teachers. Not saying it's right, just an explanation.

gcarter
March 9th, 2012, 01:11 AM
The problem is that most people have completely forgotten what a tip is.

If you want a fair wage, charge a fair rate.

A tip is discretionary. Don't count on it, don't expect it, don't bitch if you don't get it.

BTW, I tended bar for ~ 5 years in my youth, 2 years full time and 3 years while in school. I know what a difference tips can make. But at no point did I ever EXPECT a customer to tip.

I chose to take the job for the wage it paid and the POSSIBILITY of tips. I had no right to anything except the wage I contracted with my employer for.

IMO it is irresponsible for an employer in any industry to expect their employees to negotiate their wage with each and every customer. Yet that is what this whole tipping thing has turned into.

Tipping is not a moral issue. I really wish people would stop with the whole guilt thing.

Don't tell me I need to tip my instructor or DM if you are not tipping your doctor or your lawyer or your plumber or your accountant or your tax preparer or your child's teacher or your local MP or senator or congressman or every other professional you employ.

I will tip when I feel it has been earned, not because someone else seems to feel I am obligated.

If it is an obligation, put it in the contract. Otherwise you have no right to expect it.

EDIT:

BTW, I generally do tip fairly well. I also tip ZERO when I am not happy.

oly5050user
March 9th, 2012, 11:17 AM
.


Don't tell me I need to tip my instructor or DM if you are not tipping your doctor or your lawyer or your plumber or your accountant or your tax preparer or your child's teacher or your local MP or senator or congressman or every other professional you employ.


really cannot compare doctor/lawyer/accountant to a scuba instructor/ dM..they are not in the service industry ..Oh and yes I do tip my plumber a $20. for him to get lunch when he does a neat job. Tip a senator/congressman can get you in jail..

dmoore19
March 9th, 2012, 11:31 AM
If you want to tip, don't tip the doctor. Tip the one that codes and submits the paperwork to the insurance company. $100/15min for the doctor is more than fair. IMO

fjpatrum
March 9th, 2012, 11:33 AM
.



really cannot compare doctor/lawyer/accountant to a scuba instructor/ dM..they are not in the service industry ..Oh and yes I do tip my plumber a $20. for him to get lunch when he does a neat job. Tip a senator/congressman can get you in jail..

I'm curious how you think doctors, lawyers, and accountants aren't in a service industry but plumbers and scuba instructors are. All of those professions provide a SERVICE, not a product. That is the definition of a "service industry". Arguably the plumber is the least "service" because he might actually build something for you that is more than just information.

All industries where the employee deals directly with the customer IS a service industry in some form or another. The only things that aren't service industries are manufacturing and production where things are built/made by people in a factory that the customer never interacts with or sees.

That said, I don't tip my doctor, plumber, or lawyer. I do tip DMs and my tattoo artist. I don't tip my mailman and trash collectors but I do tip bartenders and restaurant wait staff. I sometimes tip taxi drivers, if they help with my bags (rare for some reason) but I don't tip people who stand in the bathroom to give me a paper towel after I've washed my hands. More importantly, to me, I treat all of these professionals with equal respect, whether or not I give them a tip.

TMHeimer
March 11th, 2012, 02:29 AM
Just had to add this-- Don't tip ambulance, doctors, nurses or hospital staff. My wife just used these services here in the U.S. 2 months ago and was away from our condo a total of 4 hours--to the tune of nearly $6,000 (did include an IV and prescriptions--over the counter that cost a total of $12.)......I almost forgot how stuff like that is States-side.

Sponsored Link

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1