re: air intergrated dive computers [Archive]

Dive Source

November 7th, 2003, 09:06 PM

I have dove the Cobra since it came out and it has performed flawlessly and I love the features.

Add this to the fact that out of well over 100 cobras we sold in the last 18 months, we have not had one return or failure reported to us, which impressed the heck out of me. (The Sherwood Wisdom and the Oceanic Pro2 are also good units and have preformed as well)

Pressure gauges can fail, depth gauges can fail, bottom timers can fail, watches can fail, regulators can fail, tanks can have bad air, o-rings can leak etc.....

Batteries just like tank pressures can and should be checked before a dive.

If your gear fails or something is wrong, end your dive immediately it's that simple. Whether or not you can read the instrument makes little difference at that point as your goal is to reach the surface .

The real exception to this is if you are doing technical diving where you must always know where you are at due to decompression obligations. That type of diving requires mucho knowledge and training as well as back up, but for recreational diving back-up SPG's and dual bottom timers are a bit much from my experiance.

If you look at equipment failure purely from a statistical viewpoint using our sample group the Cobra has been excellent and actually exceeds the reliabilty of some manufacturers analog instruments.

It would be interesting to hear from other shop owners on this board about their experiances with computer reliabilty and what type of of problems they have had (if any). I think it is much lower than many would think.

Hope this helps with your decision.

Brian P.

seahunter

November 7th, 2003, 09:30 PM

I agree wholeheartedly.
The Cobra is a good choice. It is not the first integrated computer but it's probably the first user-friendly and reliable one.
The Wisdom is a copy of the Cobra with a few extra nice features. It is a bit easier to change batteries and the customer service department is unbeatable. Being US designed and built it may have a slight edge in readability but really it's a personal choice. The Wisdom is a little less expensive - again since it's made in the USA.

With regard to reliability, dive computers today are more reliable than analog gauges. They are certainly more accurate.
We sold 3 air-integrated computers today. 2 of the divers wanted to keep their old depth gauge 'just in case'. As DS has said, forget it. The computer is more reliable than the old depth gauge. If the battery gets low, you have an audible warning that lets you know when you still have about 30 hours of time left. We've sold Uwatec(Air X), Suunto (Cobra) and Sherwood (Wisdoms) for a long time and we've never had a reliability issue. I have a big cardboard box full of analog depth gauges that flooded or simply broke.

It's academic anyway! In less than 5 years you won't be able to find an analog depth gauge no more than you can find a non-electronic mileage indicator in a new car.

As for the value of an air-integrated computer, after the issue of reliability, accuracy, ease of reading, built-in alarms (the Wisdom has about 6), automatic-on, time to fly and every other feature has been exhausted, I always use the example of a diver with a computer that tells him he has 20 minutes dive time remaining. A glance at the SPG shows he's out of air. Of what value is the computer?
An AI computer shows a single number that is the TRUE dive time remaining - it's the shorter of no-decompression limit or air supply left. If the Wisdom (Cobra) says you have 20 minutes left, it's definitive. In 20 minutes you'll be out of air or over the ND limit.

Now that's what I want!

SeaJay

November 7th, 2003, 09:44 PM

Seahunter...

Sounds great...

...So let's say that I descent to 120' (in two and a half minutes) and am now on the bottom...

After a just a couple of minutes, it tells me that I have plenty of gas left (says I've got 13 minutes still), but that I'm approaching my NDL. In fact, it says that my NDL is "2."

What do I do? Is there a problem?

Warren_L

November 7th, 2003, 09:55 PM

Using a wireless transmitter such as the one with the vytec can have added considerations other than battery life - such as interference or the signal cutting out. Call me crazy, but having a redundant spg tucked under my front strap feels kinda nice. :)

coberry7

November 7th, 2003, 10:20 PM

Seahunter...Sounds great......So let'...
Seahunter...

Sounds great...

...So let's say that I descent to 120' (in two and a half minutes) and am now on the bottom...

After a just a couple of minutes, it tells me that I have plenty of gas left (says I've got 13 minutes still), but that I'm approaching my NDL. In fact, it says that my NDL is "2."

What do I do? Is there a problem?

__________________

Seajay,

You have a lot of variables in your last post. If you have enough gas left for 13 minutes of BREATHING at that depth, but you are at your NDL in 2 minutes, you should ascend. IF you do not, at your current rate of consumption you can stay for 13 minutes and then be OOA.

In answer to your second question, 'Is there a problem?' Again too many variables are not accounted for such as prior dives, work load, temp, etc. If the computer is factoring these variables and says you are at your NDL in 2 minutes....there is no problem. ascend and get credit in NDl time by finishing that dive at a 'higher depth'.

I hope this answers your question!

dtdiver

November 7th, 2003, 11:01 PM

computer

a friend and i were at 115ft in 40F water. he had a free flow.

he shut down his tank and shared air until we got above the thermocline

when we turned the tank back on the vytec had lost synch so we had no idea
how much air he had left.

end of dive

he had no analog backup.

i like my analog spg

dt

SeaJay

November 7th, 2003, 11:02 PM

You have a lot of variables in your last post. If you have enough gas left for 13 minutes of BREATHING at that depth, but you are at your NDL in 2 minutes, you should ascend. IF you do not, at your current rate of consumption you can stay for 13 minutes and then be OOA.

True.

In answer to your second question, 'Is there a problem?' Again too many variables are not accounted for such as prior dives, work load, temp, etc. If the computer is factoring these variables and says you are at your NDL in 2 minutes....there is no problem.

False.

Firstly, let's get some of those variables out of the way:

1. I don't know of any computer that does not factor in repetitive dives... So let's assume that this one does. Let's also assume that this is the first dive in a series. That keeps things simple and gets rid of that variable.

2. Work load is somewhat taken into account with AI computers... They measure breathing rate, and thus have a rough estimate of your workload. If the load is higher, you'll use more gas. Since this diver is near his NDL, but still has plenty of gas, this diver either has a bunch of gas available to him or his work load is low. Again, to keep things simple, let's assume that his work load is low and his consumption is respectable.

3. I haven't looked into which computers actually take temperature into account... Perhaps the popular brands do and perhaps they don't. Temperature effects quite a bit when it comes to DCS (think about how much "fizzier" cold Coke is when it's cold or poured over ice cubes), but typically that would also manifest itself in poor air consumption. Since we've assumed his air consumption is good, let's assume a moderate temperature with the correct exposure protection - say, 78* in a 3 mil.

...So we've assumed a very nice dive with little effect from the "variables" you were talking about.

Still think there's no problem?

While we're at it, let's get another variable out of the way... Let's say that this diver is diving open ocean, and he's diving clear water and can see the anchor line (the "upline") that's around 50 feet away.

Since he's a good buddy, he signals to his fellow diver that it's time to ascend, right? There's a slight current at the top, so they'd want to do the ascent on the upline, right?

Still see no problem?

The two of them get together and head for the anchor line. It takes them about 40 seconds to get there. Now the computer's reading 1 minute. They begin their ascent. Since most computers will "beep" at you if you exceed an ascent rate of 30 fpm, they head up at just under that rate.

Our diver now has 1 minute of NDL left.

One minute later... Where are they on the upline?

See the problem now?

They're at 90 feet with zero bottom time left. They've gone into deco. Not a problem if that's what they were planning... But they weren't.

I say this out of personal experience. :(

Another minute goes by. They're now at 60 feet, and their computer is now telling them that they have a mandatory deco stop at 15'... Which is a little unnerving because they've never done a deco stop before. They weren't trained to do deco stops. Not yet, anyway.

Yet another minute goes by, and they're at 30 feet... With the computer beeping something unintelligible. Our buddy did great by reading the owner's manual for his computer many times, but still... This is the first time he's dived it past his NDL - which, by the way, his owner's manual tells him to never do.

At 15', our hero can't really make out what his computer's telling him (it's all new to him), but he's been diving for a couple of years, and he remembers the plan for stops if he blows his deco. Eight minutes if under 5, right? Or is that 12 under? Five minutes at 12 feet? Shoot. He wishes he could remember...

Okay, let's stay safe. Let's do... 15 minutes at 15'. Sounds good.

Good thing he had all that extra gas, isn't it? What if he hadn't? What if his rate was worse than it is? By the way, with all of this kicking around and anxiety of doing deco, guess what's happened to his breathing rate?

What would you do if you had a mandatory deco of 15 minutes at 15 feet (he thinks) but only 5 minutes worth of gas?

Now, hang at 15 and think about it for a quarter of an hour and consider how that little thing on your wrist just about put you in a world of trouble...

SeaJay

November 7th, 2003, 11:19 PM

The problem above can be remedied by "turning" your dive earlier... When, exactly, to turn your dive is a function of something called a "floor," which isn't taught in OW or AOW classes.

Simply put, this diver has a gauge on his console which tells him a lot of vital information... One of them being his remaining time to NDL.

That number is a number that tells him how long until he has to be above the floor. It is not "time until turn," and it is not, "time to surface." It is "time until he needs to be above the floor."

Now, my Suunto computer also factors in an ascent time... Sorta. It assumes a 30 fpm ascent (which, by the way makes it beep annoyingly - so I slow down) and it assumes that I can make an immediate ascent, which is not the case in a lot of diving... Especially any sort of overhead, but including open ocean, where ascending on the upline is not only a good idea, but mandatory with some dive excursions.

But since that NDL time takes all of these things into consideration, that number changes with depth changes. In short, it's not exactly clear most of the time.

But... The definition of a "floor"... Which is vitally important, especially in this case... Is the point at which that diver's body stops ongassing and begins offgassing. In other words, it's the point at which his computer stops "counting down" NDL and starts "counting up." That depth varies, and it varies with who you believe and which algorithm you believe. But Suunto believes, in most cases, it's somewhere around 35 feet.

So... The bottom line... At the beginning of our story, this diver had two minutes to be above the floor, which was around 35 feet. Since, at 30 fpm, this diver could not have gotten to 35 feet even if he ascended directly, (he's have been at 60) he was already screwed. Even if he didn't come up on the upline.

SeaJay

November 7th, 2003, 11:39 PM

Still believe your computer?

Let's try this one on for size. If you thought the last one was bad, wait'll you read this one:

A year later (our hero got spooked by the unplanned deco) his buddy talks him into diving again.

This time the dive's a bit shallower, which makes him feel better about the situation. The conditions are identical.

They splash over the side, and his nervousness subsides a bit. "Ahhhhh... I've missed this," he thinks. (Poor guy... We're really gonna screw him this time.) :)

He and his buddy descend to 80', and he's pretty nervous... But he's going to make sure that he leaves waaaay in time this time. Cool.

His consumption's up a bit... He notices when they hit the sand that he's at 80', and his NDL is 40 minutes. Dive time so far is 2 minutes, and he's got 29 minutes of air. "29 minutes," he thinks. "Okay, I wanna be leaving in 20, at least."

They swim around a while, and true to his thoughts, he signals to his buddy at 20 minutes that it's time to ascend. They swim to the anchor line (which takes a bit of work) and he notices that even though he's only taken two minutes to get to the upline, his computer is now telling him that he's got 5 minutes of gas left... Instead of the 9 that he was hoping for and the 7 that he thought he'd have at this point. "Let's get outta here," he thinks.

They begin the ascent, and he's thrilled to know that as they ascend, his "time to empty" appears to climb. It goes from 4 minutes to 5, then to 6 as they go to 65'. Entertained, he looks at his psi gauge on his computer. It reads 500 psi... And a safety stop required at 15' (he reread the manual again 'cause he got spooked so bad last time).

That's when the spit hits the fan.

His buddy, who hadn't been watching his gauges, has an OOA.

Now think about that for a moment. The computer wasn't computing for two people... It had only been computing for one. That 6 minute air time just got cut in half. Worse... Our hero and his buddy are a bit stressed now, and it actually got cut in third.

...So between the two of them, they've got 2.5 minutes of air left... And a mandatory safety stop.

What would you do?

Let me interject one more problem... Our hero, who has been diving his new, cool, air integrated Cobra has been watching it closely, right? With which hand? The left one, correct?

Where's his right one been? On the upline, right?

...So with which hand did he grab his "octo?" The right one, right? He donated... That went without a hitch... But where the heck is the upline?

Still think there's no problem?

Tom R

November 8th, 2003, 01:01 AM

How many computer recalls did we have this year alone?

Doppler

November 8th, 2003, 07:59 AM

Tom R once bubbled...
How many computer recalls did we have this year alone?

Of all the posts here, I think Tom's original one is the one containing the best information (the one above is a close fourth)

Now Tom and I do similar sorts of dives, and although he and I differ on some details, we share a similar philosophy regarding dive planning and dive preparedness. What I mean to say is: There are some universal truths... and there are some sound practices that it's a good idea to follow.

Re-read what Tom told you... all you need to know is right there.

Steve Lewis

on my way wanda

November 8th, 2003, 10:33 AM

Dive Source once bubbled...
I have dove the Cobra since it came out and it has performed flawlessly and I love the features.

Add this to the fact that out of well over 100 cobras we sold in the last 18 months, we have not had one return or failure reported to us, which impressed the heck out of me. (The Sherwood Wisdom and the Oceanic Pro2 are also good units and have preformed as well)

Pressure gauges can fail, depth gauges can fail, bottom timers can fail, watches can fail, regulators can fail, tanks can have bad air, o-rings can leak etc.....

Batteries just like tank pressures can and should be checked before a dive.

If your gear fails or something is wrong, end your dive immediately it's that simple. Whether or not you can read the instrument makes little difference at that point as your goal is to reach the surface .

The real exception to this is if you are doing technical diving where you must always know where you are at due to decompression obligations. That type of diving requires mucho knowledge and training as well as back up, but for recreational diving back-up SPG's and dual bottom timers are a bit much from my experiance.

If you look at equipment failure purely from a statistical viewpoint using our sample group the Cobra has been excellent and actually exceeds the reliabilty of some manufacturers analog instruments.

It would be interesting to hear from other shop owners on this board about their experiances with computer reliabilty and what type of of problems they have had (if any). I think it is much lower than many would think.

Hope this helps with your decision.

Brian P.

I have to agree with on equipment failing anything can go wrong even the most simple of equipment eg gauges regs.
So what do tech. divers do?? Do they not dive with computers ??
I have had my o-ring go on me on my dive in British Columbia and there is not much you can prevent that from happening but I was lucky I was already doing a deco stop and had at least 1000 psi in my tank at that time.:)

Doppler

November 8th, 2003, 10:47 AM

on my way wanda once bubbled...

I have to agree with on equipment failing anything can go wrong even the most simple of equipment eg gauges regs.
So what do tech. divers do?? Do they not dive with computers ??
I have had my o-ring go on me on my dive in British Columbia and there is not much you can prevent that from happening but I was lucky I was already doing a deco stop and had at least 1000 psi in my tank at that time.:)

You asked what do technical divers do... do they not dive with computers?

Can't speak for them all, but the ones I train are discouraged from using them... They are taught to understand the curve of the algorithm and to be able to generate tables on the fly. :)

Computers -- especially on technical dives and even more especially for people just getting into technical diving -- are not a good idea IMHO.

Sorry. Save your money!

Dive Source

November 8th, 2003, 11:02 AM

How many computer recalls did we have this year alone?-TOMR

This is a great question from TomR and of course should be looked at with some detail as it might sound like there was a rash of recalls by all of the computer manufacturers.

How many, what manufacturers and which products are important to know when making decisions about instrumentation.

In checking the Consumer Products Safety Commission (http://www.cpsc.gov/index.html) website as well as Cyberdiver (http://www.cyberdiver.net/gear/gearrecall/gearrecall.html) , I found the recalls you may be thinking about this year were on the UWATEC Smart PRO and the Smart COM dive computers and the 1995 Uwatec Aladin AirX

- Last year was the Vytec for an obscure malfunction in the SIMPLAN function ( used in surface planning )

- Four years ago in 1999 Oceanic/Aeris had a recall which they jumped on fast.

Suunto and Oceanic were excellent from what we saw and were very proactive and helpful ( I don't know about uwatec as we don't carry them)

You may also notice several recalls about other types of equipment (even pressure gauges and dive tables). All of these items are arguably just as dangerous and could also spark long what if type debates about every aspect of diving. ( I love wanda's O-ring example)

A thought that comes to my mind that may be a topic for another thread is how many people are having their instruments (analog or digital) checked for accuracy on a regular basis. Any instrument can be innacurate and give erroneous data so checking against benchmarks is also a good idea.

The passion, experiance and knowledge shown in this thread are impressive ( TomR and Steve L certainly know tech diving in Ontario) and hopefully Wanda can use what she reads here to improve her awareness while diving as well as make an educated decision about her computer purchase.

BP

on my way wanda

November 8th, 2003, 11:05 AM

I have heard alot on the cobra but has anyone experienced the scubapro smart com ????
I also have heard of some tech divers who use dive computer eg suunto and cut tables as well. :hmmm:

Scuba Duffer

November 8th, 2003, 01:06 PM

As a matter of fact, I just got it. What impressed me most was I was able to figure out all of the computers options and functions without reading any instructions. It is VERY user friendly.

Tom R

November 8th, 2003, 03:41 PM

on my way wanda once bubbled...
I have heard alot on the cobra but has anyone experienced the scubapro smart com ????
I also have heard of some tech divers who use dive computer eg suunto and cut tables as well. :hmmm:

Your sort of half right, Suunto computers are fast becoming better known and at the moment to Viper, Stinger, D3 and Vytec are all dual purpose, that is they can be switched to bottom timer mode, like mine does. It's the stop watch feature that the D3 and Stinger that makes them more attractive as it makes your dive planning so much easier.

Tom

Axeman

November 8th, 2003, 03:50 PM

I have a cobra and I love it.

the bototm line is that diving with a computer is great but do not take your computer to the limit.

just like you should knwo your limits, the limits of the tables etc.

when I dive I do not wait until the computer tells me I have 1 min left. I make sure that I have a safety margin. you still have to use that other computer (your brain) to decide what to do and when.

The suunto cobra and others ca also be set to be more conservative. which I love because you can adjust for factors that make you more prone to DCS. I have mine set at the most conservative and I have not not yet had a dive where I wished I was able to push the limits and stay down longer.

in the end I trust my computer (suunto) and my computer (brain) aka my training. it has to be a combination of both. to rely on only your computer is foolhardy.

a computer that you can get to guage mode is helpful for when you want to do some more technical stuff in the future.

Thanks

Kevin R

November 8th, 2003, 06:50 PM

I have a Suunto vyper, it's a great computer and does eveything I need it to.

I put it into gauge mode as soon as it came out of the box and never switched it back again.

Tom has it right, bottom timer on the right arm and brass gauge clipped off to the left hip. Use the Mk 1 Mod 0 computer between your ears to plan your dives.

Kevin Ripley
GUE Tech II, Cave I

seahunter

November 8th, 2003, 07:02 PM

No analog gauge set-up and no computer can solve every problem that a scuba diver may encounter.
I submit seajay that the scenario(s) you've described are not solveable by any gauge - they seem to be problems of operator (diver) error. The computer can read your air consumption and calculate your N2 uptake but it can't second guess your behavior.
As others have quite correctly stated, when you have a problem with ANY piece of equipment, ascend.

When computers first appeared, they were not very reliable. Today (2002+) they are incredibly reliable. There have been less recalls for computers than for regulators in the last few years. As has also been pointed out, those recalls have been limited to pretty much one brand and in fact, one model. It appears further that the problem was know in advance and was not acted upon so we can't say for sure that it was a failure or recall rather than a production issue that wasn't corrected.

I do agree with the post about the hoseless or wireless computers. While some love 'em, I'm not really comfortable with RF transmission underwater. It costs more and is more likely to be unreliable - and I can't see the benefit anyway. The SPG hose is not a problem for divers. Get rid of the air line to the 2nd. stage if you want to make diving more comfortable! - not likely in my lifetime.

All of my comments are in the context of recreational sport diving. Techies are a different story and the same parameters do not apply.
Please accept that what is best for tech diving is NOT necessarily right for sport divers (or vice versa).
The Cobra, Wisdom etc or the simpler decom models are perfect for sport diving.

DPVDiver

November 8th, 2003, 08:41 PM

I understand the Computer\Bottom timer issue from all standpoints. Personally I have a Nitek3 I run in computer mode and back it up with an OMS Bottom Timer. I plan my dives ahead of time with tables and usually my deco from plan is extremely similar to the computer. I always stay on the more conservative schedule.

I understand why people use gauge mode and tables BUT, why purchase a dive computer to run in gauge mode? A bottom timer is less expensive and should do the same thing right? I guess the only difference would be more memory features and computers seem to have greater depth ratings? Just wondering.

Also, however cool the hoseless stuff is, I would always back it up with a tried and true analog gauge.

DPV

Tom R

November 8th, 2003, 09:05 PM

DPVDiver once bubbled...
I understand why people use gauge mode and tables BUT, why purchase a dive computer to run in gauge mode? A bottom timer is less expensive and should do the same thing right? I guess the only difference would be more memory features and computers seem to have greater depth ratings? Just wondering.

DPV

A couple of reasons here, a decent bottom timer is in the 200 range, a decent stop watch water proof to a couple ata's 150-200 also, a dive computer with both features 400-500 range, instead of 2 pieces of kit, just 1. Bottom timers can not be downloaded to your computer either whereas your computer in any mode can, which is anthor attractive feature.
Plus the Suunto stuff is slim and plain cool cool(kind of important), and you get the best of both worlds here.

Tom R

DPVDiver

November 8th, 2003, 09:07 PM

Forgot about the uploading.

Thanks Tom

Kevin R

November 8th, 2003, 09:21 PM

Uploading is what attracted me to the vyper at the time. It has since been replaced with a D3 which makes deco stops much easier and is still downloadable. As for a backup BT, I have a team mate to carry mine for me.

Kevin

SeaJay

November 8th, 2003, 09:55 PM

seahunter once bubbled...

I submit seajay that the scenario(s) you've described are not solveable by any gauge - they seem to be problems of operator (diver) error. The computer can read your air consumption and calculate your N2 uptake but it can't second guess your behavior.
As others have quite correctly stated, when you have a problem with ANY piece of equipment...

False.

You do not have a problem with "any" piece of equipment... And I don't see where "others have quite correctly stated that."

Let me ask you, then... What would YOU have done? Please, explain to us what you would have done in this situation. Especially explain to us what you would have done in situation #2.

...Then please explain what you could have done to prevent the problem.

Once you do that, I believe that you won't need me to tell you why having a computer "do the math" for you actually works against you.

Axeman once bubbled...

when I dive I do not wait until the computer tells me I have 1 min left. I make sure that I have a safety margin. you still have to use that other computer (your brain) to decide what to do and when.

Great answer. Mind telling us when, then, you ascend? 2 mins left? 3? In case you haven't noticed, in the second scenario, there were 9 minutes of gas left... And that wasn't enough, either. Exactly how many minutes is a "safe" margin?

wetbehindtheear

November 8th, 2003, 11:12 PM

Calm down pal. If your buddy can't remember his training, and relies solely on the "minutes of air left" on his computer instead of his own grey matter, maybe it's Darwin's way of telling him he shouldn't reproduce. Hell, forget training, just read the damn manual.

My Cobra has a lot more information than just NDL and air time remaining. I don't know a single diver (including the newbs) who doesn't watch both their psi and their NDL/air time. The air time remaining is an invaluable tool which also helps divers manage their breathing, and I don't think a couple of horror stories from an obvious technophobe will convince many people otherwise.

SeaJay

November 8th, 2003, 11:55 PM

"Obvious technophobe?"

Might want to reread my posts, "pal." Single tank diver here, diving a wetsuit... At recreational depths. I'm not even diving any sort of funky mix. Exactly how do I classify as a "technophobe?"

And in case you're not familiar - I own a Vyper, which is really a wrist-mounted Cobra without the AI feature. I've dived the Cobra before; I'm fully aware of the information it supplies to the diver, thank you.

The stories - which apparently you didn't read (which is fine, but passing judgement on them without reading is silly and ignorant) - use the example of a standard, wet diver in no overhead on recreational depths with a buddy. I even gave him good SAC and warm water.

What sort of diving is less "technophobe?" Diving in the bathtub?

If your buddy can't remember his training, and relies solely on the "minutes of air left" on his computer instead of his own grey matter, maybe it's Darwin's way of telling him he shouldn't reproduce.

Let me get this straight... You're advising me to let my buddy die?

...And while you may consider my stories "horror stories," I can assure you that I speak about those from experience. They aren't "horror stories" - they're real examples... And I'm not the only one with stories like that to share.

Dive any way you want... But you better hope that you aren't my buddy the day that I decide to take your advice and let "Darwin tell him he shouldn't reproduce."

That's perhaps the most stunning thing I've seen on this board to date.

pufferfish

November 9th, 2003, 08:47 AM

Seajay who let you across the border ;)

With all those posts in our forum I see you have bumped the Ontario Fresh Water Freaks into the most active on the board category.

Even the once prolific Texas Swamp diving team has fallen behind and we won't even mention your Deep South Divers there pal :)

Scuba Duffer

November 9th, 2003, 10:48 AM

I don't use "dive time remaining" as anything other than nice to know info. Tank pressure and NDL are the indicators I use.

The Cobra is by far the most popular computer on the market for a reason. It is incredably user friendly, has a great info display, and I find it very ergonomic.

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong (like I need to say that around here), isn't a digital gauge (integrated) more accurate than an analogue guage? In my short experience, I find they are.

And for what it's worth, I'm glad to see SeaJay posting here. He's one of a small handful of people on this board that can make an articulate arguement (whether I agree or not), have the facts to back it up, and not resort to personal shots. (Don't worry Pufferfish, I know you were kidding).

SeaJay

November 9th, 2003, 11:41 AM

I found an interesting thread and posted to it. It's definitely interesting when someone advises to simply let someone else die.

:D

Wow, lookie that... You're right... I didn't even realize it. I'm in Yankee territory. :D

So... What's up y'all... Eh? Y'all have some of dem moose-burgers? I always wanted to give those things a try, "eh." :D Brought with me some Lowcountry "Shrump." Eh.

I'm still tryin' to understand the concept of having to cut the water open before you dive it. Yankees do some weird things... Eh.

Lol.

It just kills me to see people trust their computers like that. I've gotten myself in trouble a couple of times doing that... And I ain't havin' to cut my water with a chainsaw first... Know what I mean?

I'm flattered by the accusations of "technophobe," but that ain't me. My skills are rec only.

divedude

November 9th, 2003, 12:38 PM

on my way wanda once bubbled...
I was thinking this winter to purchase a air intergrated dive computer, I had my mind made up to get a suunto cobra, I have seen them around and was inpressed with there the number of functions it offered. Just resently I saw a new dive computer made by scubapro uwatec's Smart COM and I am smitten by all its functions so know I am truely confused, on which one to go with, I already in the past year have made some bad decisions on dive equipment or lets say, purchased some equipment not suitable for me. If anyone has some advice on this topic please led it forward, I just do not want to make another mistake and purchase this item wishing I had the bought the other. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused: ;-0

Rely on your tables and your brain.
Use a computer only as a backup.
I would never get a air intergrated Computer!!!
I did have one, a suunto eon. "I think that's what it was called"
It crapped out on me inside a freighter, two levels down.
The info. that it told me was-
Depth 265'- I was approx. 85'
Bottom time 235 minutes - I was about 15 minutes into the dive.
Air 0000- I had 2300 just before
was buzzing and flashing I was ascending too fast.
when I got to the surface it still read depth 130'

I still use one, NOT that one! a Suunto Solution A. but just as a back up for my brain.

Problem: Brain getting old, not working real great. :(

I also have a old 1988 Uwatec that I lend out to customers. never had a problem with it yet! It must have a couple of 1000 dives on it.

divedude

November 9th, 2003, 12:50 PM

SeaJay once bubbled...
I found an interesting thread and posted to it. It's definitely interesting when someone advises to simply let someone else die.

:D

Wow, lookie that... You're right... I didn't even realize it. I'm in Yankee territory. :D

So... What's up y'all... Eh? Y'all have some of dem moose-burgers? I always wanted to give those things a try, "eh." :D Brought with me some Lowcountry "Shrump." Eh.

I'm still tryin' to understand the concept of having to cut the water open before you dive it. Yankees do some weird things... Eh.

Lol.

Yankee's!!!
What did we here in Canada do, to be insulted like that!!!
One thing we always had in common with the south is our feeling about Yankees :D
I use to think you were a nice guy!!

{disclaimer} This is a joke! only a joke not meant to hurt or insult the damm yankees :)

SeaJay

November 9th, 2003, 01:26 PM

Hiliarous...

Perhaps Canadians and Southerners are of the same mentality. :D

I dunno, though... Cutting the water with a chain saw first... That's kinda weird, y'all. Lol... Eh.

'Course, diving in alligator territory isn't real bright either, I suppose. :D

Y'all are a friendly group, though... And y'all have a great rep for beautiful women, great beer, and a terrific sense of humor. I guess you've got to have that in order to put up with those Yanks. :D

Alright, y'all.. Canada is invited to my house for an oyster roast next weekend. :D

My house. (http://www.distantisland.com)

Will y'all take me to a place to see the Aurora Borealis? Never seen that... There's no place where I can sit under a palmetto tree with a beer and some boiled peanuts and watch it, is there? Eh?

divedude

November 9th, 2003, 01:57 PM

SeaJay once bubbled...
Hiliarous...

Perhaps Canadians and Southerners are of the same mentality.

I dunno, though... Cutting the water with a chain saw first... That's kinda weird, y'all. Lol... Eh.

'Course, diving in alligator territory isn't real bright either, I suppose.

Y'all are a friendly group, though... And y'all have a great rep for beautiful women, great beer, and a terrific sense of humor. I guess you've got to have that in order to put up with those Yanks.

Alright, y'all.. Canada is invited to my house for an oyster roast next weekend.

My house. (http://www.distantisland.com)

Will y'all take me to a place to see the Aurora Borealis? Never seen that... There's no place where I can sit under a palmetto tree with a beer and some boiled peanuts and watch it, is there? Eh?
Chain saw is a integral piece of dive gear.....Humm, might even work on them alligators :D

What time is the Oyster roast next weekend???

Come on up, we can sit under a fir tree with beer and hot pizza
and watch the northen lights. We drink real beer here not that watered down stuff they sell down there ;)

Ah yes.. The beautiful women......... We try to keep quiet about that, so the damm yankee's leave them alone :D

Doppler

November 9th, 2003, 02:26 PM

Divedude... you seem to be working under a false assumption... I can assure you that SeaJay is NOT A YANKEE! And you may get yourself into deep water if you keep referring to him as such. He is a Southerner... If you wish to keep things here civil, may I respectfully suggest either: Southern Gentleman or -- if he gets rowdy -- Cracker :)

And in case you've never tried them, BOILED PEANUTS go very well with CANADIAN BEER... now that's a blending of cultures!

Take care...

SeaJay

November 9th, 2003, 02:39 PM

Doppler once bubbled...
Southern Gentleman or -- if he gets rouwdy -- Cracker :)

Hahahahahahaaaaa!!! First name: Red; Last name: Neck. :D

And in case you've never tried them, BOILED PEANUTS go very well with CANADIAN BEER... now that's a blending of cultures!

I don't know what I'd do... :D My taste buds might explode!

'Round here, they call them "boah p-nahts." Southerners are a lazy bunch when it comes to pronouncing the consonants. :D

Oyster roast happens all weekend next weekend... We're starting on Friday night and ending sometime Sunday afternoon. Oh yeah... We'll be taking a break to do some wreck diving off the coast.

Y'all are invited. :D

Scuba Duffer

November 9th, 2003, 03:03 PM

What I wouldn't give to live in a climate where I could dive year round without worrying about freezing.

Nice digs Seajay! If you ever up this way, stop in for some poutine and Tim Bits.

(It always make me laugh that they don't know what Tim Bits are!!):D

SeaJay

November 9th, 2003, 03:19 PM

Okay, I'll bite.

"What are Tim Bits?"

Tom R

November 9th, 2003, 04:04 PM

"What are Tim Bits?"

Translation mode on

Donut holes dude

Tom:)

divedude

November 9th, 2003, 04:08 PM

Tim Horton's or "Timmys" as most Canadian's call it, is a donut shop. It is named after a Canadian Hockey player who owned it at one time. He was killed in a car accident years ago.

In almost every village, town or city in Canada we have at least one "Timmys" most have two or three.

Tim Bits are the same as "donut holes"

We have great Poutine here too, It's one of the reasons along with "Timmys" that I'm called BIG Jim :D

SeaJay

November 9th, 2003, 04:12 PM

Hahahahahahaaa!!!

We have something like that... It's called "Krispy Kreme." :D

Do y'all have Krispy Kremes where you are?

Hey, don't look now, but I think we hijacked this thread. :D

divedude

November 9th, 2003, 04:14 PM

Doppler once bubbled...
Divedude... you seem to be working under a false assumption... I can assure you that SeaJay is NOT A YANKEE! And you may get yourself into deep water if you keep referring to him as such. He is a Southerner... If you wish to keep things here civil, may I respectfully suggest either: Southern Gentleman or -- if he gets rowdy -- Cracker :)

And in case you've never tried them, BOILED PEANUTS go very well with CANADIAN BEER... now that's a blending of cultures!

Take care...

I know a southern Gentleman when I see one! But he inplyed that we were yankee's. I felt insulted and would have slapped him with my gloveand called for a duel.........BUT it was to damm cold to take my glove off :wacko:

divedude

November 9th, 2003, 04:26 PM

SeaJay once bubbled...
Hahahahahahaaa!!!

We have something like that... It's called "Krispy Kreme." :D

Do y'all have Krispy Kremes where you are?

Hey, don't look now, but I think we hijacked this thread. :D

Dive Computers to donuts, in Canada that's not a hijack, it's a conversation. They tried to bring Krispy Kreme to Canada but........
No one would leave "Timmys" long enough to try them.

I do like Krispy Kreme though, my job used to take me to South Carolina every week.

TekDiveGirl

November 9th, 2003, 04:34 PM

Dive Source once bubbled...
Add this to the fact that out of well over 100 cobras we sold in the last 18 months, we have not had one return or failure reported to us, which impressed the heck out of me. (The Sherwood Wisdom and the Oceanic Pro2 are also good units and have preformed as well)

It would be interesting to hear from other shop owners on this board about their experiances with computer reliabilty and what type of of problems they have had (if any). I think it is much lower than many would think.

Hope this helps with your decision.

I speak from personal experience that they can and do fail. I ended up sending mine back and getting Vytecs, but have a backup SPG on my hip.

Kimber

doole

November 9th, 2003, 04:54 PM

Doppler once bubbled...

Re-read what Tom told you... all you need to know is right there.

Steve Lewis

Agreed - and I might add: if you do get a computer, keep analyzing your dives with your tables as you log them - iow do not lose touch with your tables.

Dive Source

November 9th, 2003, 06:36 PM

TekDive Girl said:
I speak from personal experience that they can and do fail. I ended up sending mine back and getting Vytecs, but have a backup SPG on my hip.

Just to clarify - I was not suggesting that they never fail but from a purely statistical viewpoint based on our sample group, the reliability of the Cobras we have sold has been stunningly good.

Better in fact than some manufacturers analog gauges ( ie SPG and depth gauges)

This thread has certainly taken enough twists and turns far from the simple question Wanda asked about the quality of the Cobra.

And by the way another name for Timbits is Fat pills - LOL

Perhaps we could also start a thread on how Timmy's is now using frozen donuts and how they suck compared to what they used to taste like. ;-0

Chris Red

November 9th, 2003, 09:10 PM

Seajay said
I'm still tryin' to understand the concept of having to cut the water open before you dive it. Yankees do some weird things... Eh.
After my shore dive in Kingston today I noticed an icycle hanging off the building beside me, fortunately the lake water was still pretty soft at 42 degrees, 'cause the chain saw's in the shop getting tuned up for next week! ;)

Diving wet is easy enough - it's just the air temp when you get out that takes some getting used to.

Nothing like a popping into a Timmies after to warm up!

Dive computers... this has been a great thread for me, I've been thinking of augmenting my 'classic' console with a dive computer...
now I have some anecdotal stew to add to my research, not to mention a hugely entertaining worse case scenario worthy of being in an Alfred Hitchcock thriller.

Thanks

SeaJay

November 9th, 2003, 09:26 PM

Two of them.

There's two scenarios there.

And they aren't "worst case scenarios." They're common occurrences. Yes, I am serious.

Nobody's answered my question on how to prevent these problems. People discount my stories and say, "Yeah, but that's just a horror story" as if it doesn't happen all the time.

Trust me on this one... Do not believe your computer.

Think about it... The computer says that you have 10 minutes of gas left. You plan on that, and begin your ascent because you know that you've got a 3 minute "safety stop" to do. That's when you suddenly need to donate, 'cause your buddy's OOA. Weren't planning on that, were you? The computer can't make up for it, either. Do you refuse to give your buddy gas, or do the two of you suck down what was supposed to be ten minutes of gas left in. say, four minutes... Which is not enough time to ascend and do your stop! (It'd take 3 minutes just to ascend alone!)

The point is that the computer's "plan" doesn't account for what you really need. That's all there is to it. These aren't horror stories.

Warren_L

November 9th, 2003, 09:38 PM

SeaJay once bubbled...
I found an interesting thread and posted to it. It's definitely interesting when someone advises to simply let someone else die.

:D

Wow, lookie that... You're right... I didn't even realize it. I'm in Yankee territory. :D

Yankee territory? You're joking, right? Nothing against our American neighbours, but I am categorically not a Yankee.

Warren_L

November 9th, 2003, 09:40 PM

SeaJay once bubbled...
Okay, I'll bite.

"What are Tim Bits?"

You have got to come visit the Canadians ... and stop by a Tim Horton's. A true Canadian institution.

Warren_L

November 9th, 2003, 09:41 PM

Warren_L

November 9th, 2003, 09:43 PM

TekDiveGirl once bubbled...

I speak from personal experience that they can and do fail. I ended up sending mine back and getting Vytecs, but have a backup SPG on my hip.

Kimber

I find them convenient - having my pressure on my wrist computer. Not that I rely on that mostly - I generally have an idea where my pressure is in my brain. Then I can check it on my wrist. And like you, if I need to, I can look at my good old SPG.

Chris Red

November 9th, 2003, 10:04 PM

Warren,
oops that yankee reference... I think we fixed that up a few posts ago...
Cultural exchanges were made that would have made Kisinger proud: Krispy Kreme's have made it to Ontario... but Timmies still rule, I would take Seajay up on his Shrimp invite ... but I'm signed up for classes that weekend... Drats! Been a while since I was down that way.

Seajay... Since there is no changing the past... I'll definitely take the lessons to learn from and consider the rich wealth from all the other contributions as well.
And how do you prepare those shrimp?

doole

November 9th, 2003, 11:06 PM

warren_l said...

I find them convenient - having my pressure on my wrist computer. Not that I rely on that mostly - I generally have an idea where my pressure is in my brain. Then I can check it on my wrist. And like you, if I need to, I can look at my good old SPG.

This is an extraordinarily well thought-out approach, because of course, it's also mine. :D

I believe SeaJay is totally correct as well. Trust my life to a computer? Not blinkin' likely. Worked with the swine things way too long. Nice conveniance, though.

Warren_L

November 9th, 2003, 11:33 PM

Doole, as they say, great minds think alike. :)

I don't rely 100% on a computer - there's no substitute for using your brain. Plus it is not a big deal if the signal cuts out in the middle of a dive. I try to be fairly aware of my air pressure during my dive, and I do check it fairly regularly, so if the signal cuts out, no biggie as I have a reasonably good idea of what's left. I will continue my dive if I choose with my SPG, or if no SPG, I will call the dive. So far, my Vytec has never given me any trouble at depth (knock on wood).

SeaJay

November 9th, 2003, 11:48 PM

warren_l once bubbled...
Yankee territory? You're joking, right?

Yes, I am. :)

...But that's interesting. Your point, I think, shows that we may have different definitions of what, exactly, a Yankee is.

Here in the South, it's anyone north of the Mason-Dixon Line... Which is technically around the sourthern border of Pennsylvania. I will tell you, however, that old school Southerners consider anything north of THEM to be "Yankees." :)

I'm here in South Carolina, for example... Right on the northern border of Georgia. When I was a child, I once asked my grandfather (who was raised on a deep south plantation), "Pop, where's this 'Mason-Dixon Line' anyway?"

With a completely straight face, he looked at me and said, "I think it's 'bout Yemassee, son." (Yemassee is a town with a population of about 12 up the road about 5 miles... Just to the north of us.) For years, I thought that Yemassee was the Mason Dixon Line. Lol!

It was a big deal, of course, generations ago when there was a Civil War and the Mason-Dixon Line literally cut the country in half - in more ways that just geographically.

Nowadays, of course there's no real "North vs. South" mentaility going on... But us Southerners, who have a very different culture from the Northerners of this country, still joke about it and play. Therein lied the joke that my grandfather meant when he told me that the Mason-Dixon Line ran through any obscure town that was a mile or two north of where you were standing at the time.

Anyway... So what do y'all consider to be a "Yankee?"

Krispy Kreme's have made it to Ontario... but Timmies still rule

BETTER THAN KRISPY KREMES? C'mon... Now I know you're smokin' something funny! :) Do you know that people actually camped out at the first Krispy Kreme to open in California? It was like they were selling Led Zepplin concert tickets! I mean, there were people for days...

Man, if "Timmies" are better than that, then... Well... I gotta try this!

Do they mail? I mean, can you send them, or are they like Krispy Kremes in that they have to be eaten fresh out of the oven?

I'll send someone 1/2 pound of river shrimp for a dozen of those things. Anyone game?

Oh... And you boil 'em. :) I don't know if you've seen the movie Forrest Gump, but in there there's this dude who, for days goes on about the best way to prep shrimp... "Boil em... Fry em... Broil them... Shrimp salad... Shrimp stew..." It's pretty funny.

But here in tne Lowcountry, there's just one way... Catch 'em, 'head 'em, and boil 'em. The fresher the better. :D

Warren_L

November 10th, 2003, 12:10 AM

SeaJay once bubbled...

Anyway... So what do y'all consider to be a "Yankee?"

Those guys wearing those funny pin-stripe outfits running around some stadium in New York?

Actually, my knowledge of US history is little to none, but I'd always considered them to be Americans in the North, but haven't a clue where the dividing line was.

As for Tim's surviving the trip, I'm not sure. I'm not much of a doughnut fan (now is this a Canadian thing? -- I think Americans spell it donut). It's the coffee I go for - always guaranteed to be freshly brewed. If it doesn't get served within 60 minutes, it's down the drain.

pufferfish

November 10th, 2003, 12:26 AM

SeaJay once bubbled...
[B]

BETTER THAN KRISPY KREMES? C'mon... Now I know you're smokin' something funny! :)

Don't laugh Seajay about smokin' that funny stuff up here. I figure that is why we apparently have the most number of donut shops per capita than anywhere in the world :moose:

Any guesses as to our most valuable agricultural industry according to Forbes magazine?
Canada's largest agricultural industry (http://www.forbes.com/maserati/146.html)

We had a similar madness when the first KK opened here in Toronto about a year ago. Somehow lining up to buy donuts is just plain difficult to understand. Now lining up for a good Tim's coffee, that is worthwhile.

on my way wanda

November 10th, 2003, 12:37 AM

I must say that this post has curtainly taken me for a roller coaster ride :coffee: from donuts to shrimp parties to crossing the boarder and back again to finally ???????.

I have to agree that really what is between your ears should dectate the dive and really any piece of equipement can fail nothing is 100% full proof!!! I do agree that compairing tech divers to sport diving is like apples and grapes( don't like oranges much). :)

I have my reasons for not choosing to stay with my SPG console and go with air intergreted, besides how many divers fatality are due to there diving with a air intergreted or without. Most of the dive incidents occur eg panic diver medical reasons or flat out diver error.

I do appreciate everyones responds to my dilemma chances are I well end up with the Cobra, since I haven't heard much about the Scubapro model, or seen it around as much as the suunto, before I make any irrational decisions I need to do some more research on both dive computers. While I am doing that I think I need a cup of coffee, Timmies sounds good :mean:

Warren_L

November 10th, 2003, 08:22 AM

Wanda, your decision sounds fine to me. The key thing is that you're comfortable with it, and you know what's involved should something go wrong. Nothing wrong with that. And yes, I guess this thread was officially hijacked...

Scuba Duffer

November 10th, 2003, 10:14 AM

SeaJay once bubbled...

Anyway... So what do y'all consider to be a "Yankee?"

Anything North of the Mason Dixon line but South of the Canadian Boarder. Once you cross that boarder - your a "Canuck".....of course, east of Ontario...we have "Frogs"!!:wacko:

SeaJay once bubbled...

Do they mail? I mean, can you send them, or are they like Krispy Kremes in that they have to be eaten fresh out of the oven?

I'll send someone 1/2 pound of river shrimp for a dozen of those things. Anyone game?

Well, You probably can mail them, Have to do it via courier though to keep em good and fresh. PM me your address and I'll mail ya some bits!!

SeaJay once bubbled...

Do you know that people actually camped out at the first Krispy Kreme to open in California? It was like they were selling Led Zepplin concert tickets! I mean, there were people for days...

SIGH, sadly the same thing occurred here when the first one opened. :D :D

DeeDee

November 10th, 2003, 03:36 PM

Two points to consider. First these guys are diving nitrox 32 ( explaining 40 min NDL @ 80 ft). The dive is very safe from nitrogen saturation point of view, we leave lots of room there.

Second, "rule of thirds" is almost there, the diver starts the ascent with 1000 psi .

So what is the problem? Communication!!! The buddy has a sac rate of 0.9 !!! at 16 minutes into the dive this buddy should have started the ascent . Now, coincidentally this is when our diver is at 1500 psi . and should check on the buddy , how much air he has got.

Notice that the computer reported everything correctly - for the single diver. The computers that failed were between their shoulders. Even with redundancy (2 divers), nobody asked or volunteered the info - psi left in tank. You would end up with the same problem when using gages, lack of brain matter is not curable, and it can be fatal :) .

Hope the DM on the boat had a hang tank so these two could complete their safety stop :) .

Conclusion: Buy a computer, it will help you make the dives longer and possibly safer. Remember not to switch off the gray matter between your shoulders. All the rules of diving still apply, regardless if you have a computer or not.

Scuba Duffer

November 10th, 2003, 04:03 PM

If all things go according to plan and the customs doesn't confiscate them, SeaJay should be snacking on Tim Bits by this time tomorrow!:D :D

Chris Red

November 10th, 2003, 04:24 PM

Scuba Duffer -
I'm wondering how these would compare to a mess of crawdads from Galviston.... those being saltwater?
It's all highly scientific of course... in the name of research? ;)

Scuba Duffer

November 10th, 2003, 04:39 PM

SeaJays not really sending any river shrimp - just think how they would smell in the back of the courier van!:wacko: :wacko:

I just sent some Tim Bits, no strings attached. Just doing my part for trans boarder relations!:D :D

SeaJay

November 10th, 2003, 05:18 PM

Oh man...

You completely rock. :-)

I've sent shrimp out before... They get packed in dry ice. It works well. :)

I can't wait to try these things... You totally rock. Thanks for the opportunity to try something out that I otherwise would not get the opportunity to try.

DeeDee... Nice observations! :) Impressive... We now knight you "DeeDee San." :D

For the record: I own a Vyper. I have a computer. I dive with it. My arguements have never been to dive without one. I happen to think it's a great tool.

But DeeDee San is right on... And was really my point all along. What I was hearing prior to my examples was some really scary stuff going on there... Like the encouragement to listen to your computer rather than plan the dive. People were mentioning that the computer would tell you how much longer you can stay down... Depending on that is simply dangerous; the computer - which you're trusting your life to - simply can't gather all of the information necessary to keep you and your buddy safe.

Instead, I suggest that computers be used as they were designed to be used: as a tool. They do not replace your responsibility to plan the dive and dive the plan. Frankly, I would love to see y'all around... And if you let the computer do the work for you, that might not happen. Get my drift?

Also for the record: I have used my computer in "computer" mode. I don't any more... When I found myself disagreeing with the computer, I listened to the computer. That was a big mistake. I no longer wish to be tempted to listen to the computer rather than my plan and my gray matter. So... I dive with it in gauge mode. I still like the fact that it's a quality unit that shows me tons of great information... And it logs my dives for me.

...So I would encourage people to use one... But use it as the tool that it is, and do not allow it to replace a good plan and your brain.

...And when you stick to that, yet allow your computer to show you it's "stuff," you'll see it's shortcomings.

DeeDee... With a SAC of .9 (I'm trusting you on that figure; I haven't bothered to do the calcs), and likely with a buddy with the same SAC (or worse, since he's OOA), can you imagine how quickly they'd suck down that cylinder in an emergency?

Scary, man. :(

Planning the dive would have been so much better...

Now, I'm waiting on my front step to taste these "Timmy" things... :D I can't wait.

coberry7

November 10th, 2003, 06:18 PM

Oh boy, lots has happened since I went away for the weekend.

Here's my quickie input...

I have heard alot on the cobra but has anyone...
I have heard alot on the cobra but has anyone experienced the scubapro smart com ????
I also have heard of some tech divers who use dive computer eg suunto and cut tables as well."

Whoever posted that, (sorry, I forgot who I copied that from), I own and have a lot of dives under some EXTREMELY different conditions with a SmartCom. I dove it before and after the recall. From Roatan, to Vortex, to the damn difficult Cooper River, SC.

Ever been to the Cooper River for fossils, SeaJay? It's in your neck of the woods. If not, I'll tell you all about it. It's a good experience!

OK, us Southerners love our Krispy Kreme's. They rock! I have been known to cut through 3 lanes of Atlanta traffic because I saw the 'Hot Ones' sign illuminated! Having been to Canada a few times I just didn't trust ya'lls doughnut capability. I stuck with Poutine and Smoked meat sandwiches, or 'Street Meat'. Of course, nothing beats a Low Country boil....MMMMMMM!! Better than Chili!!

I'll stay out of the computers versus analog versus tables or any combination thereof. Many different opinions and experiences on that discussion.

I will say that I dive a SmartCom and love it. I reccomended it to my mother and she dives one too now. I always carry tables and analog equipment in case they are required, then again, I also carry every little bit of backup gear I can topside. (Why not?) Had a reg fail on a trip once, therefore I'll never dive without a backup on the boat in order to save the dive. (mine failed as I was entering the water...)

The RBT feature of the SmartCom is neat. I always use my NDL display and remaining pressure, though to determine my RBT.

I dive, mostly in the Carribbean in shallow and DAMN deep water, but always clear water. (The Cooper River being the exception)

In any conditions, I've never had any need to worry about the info I was receiving from my computer.

With regards to the battery dying at depth....Better check the batteries before you dive! There is no excuse to be underwater with a battery that runs out of power. The SmartCom allows you to check the remaining power level of the battery with the touch of two fingers. I attended a presentation from the local ScubaPro rep last year that was directed at instructors and anyone in a dive shop selling his products. One of the questions posed was 'When is it time to change the battery in the SmartCom.' He said that even at 30% power, the computer has enough power for thirty or so dives. (If I remember correctly) I did 15 dives on mine and only lost 3 percent of my battery power. Food for thought.

That's my quickie reply!!

Colin

jhelmuth

November 10th, 2003, 06:46 PM

SeaJay once bubbled...
Two of them.

There's two scenarios there.

And they aren't "worst case scenarios." They're common occurrences. Yes, I am serious.

Nobody's answered my question on how to prevent these problems. People discount my stories and say, "Yeah, but that's just a horror story" as if it doesn't happen all the time.

Trust me on this one... Do not believe your computer.

Think about it... The computer says that you have 10 minutes of gas left. You plan on that, and begin your ascent because you know that you've got a 3 minute "safety stop" to do. That's when you suddenly need to donate, 'cause your buddy's OOA. Weren't planning on that, were you? The computer can't make up for it, either. Do you refuse to give your buddy gas, or do the two of you suck down what was supposed to be ten minutes of gas left in. say, four minutes... Which is not enough time to ascend and do your stop! (It'd take 3 minutes just to ascend alone!)

The point is that the computer's "plan" doesn't account for what you really need. That's all there is to it. These aren't horror stories.

:confused: SeaJay...

I'm sorry to disagree (cause I really respect you and you are usually right on every time) but...

The SmartCOM does factor time required for ascent, breathing rates, temp., NDL, etc. in RBT (remaining bottom time). I can't speak for any other dive computer - but this I know to be true. If there are other issues which happen as a result of unexpected performance/circumstances/whatever after you've calculated your limit (and you are pushing the limit), then you are going to have a problem - computer or not.

coberry7

November 10th, 2003, 06:48 PM

But DeeDee San is right on... And was really my point all along. What I was hearing prior to my examples was some really scary stuff going on there... Like the encouragement to listen to your computer rather than plan the dive. People were mentioning that the computer would tell you how much longer you can stay down... Depending on that is simply dangerous; the computer - which you're trusting your life to - simply can't gather all of the information necessary to keep you and your buddy safe.

I always tell my students that they must plan their dive, and then dive their plan. If the comp says you have more time, well, that's cool, BUT DIVE YOUR PLAN!! If your comp says you need to ascend in contradistion to your plan, then go with your comp. The most conservative way is the safest in these cases.

SeaJay, you are right. The comp cannot factor in every factor. It provides a best guess based on its input. I have read that until we have implanted dive comps in our bloodstream, then the comp is a GOOD guess as to what is going on. Tables are even worse guesses. (How many divers have you seen diving tables that do not look at their watches and write on their slates the time they surface while they wait to hand their fins to the divemaster and ditch their gear?)

I've sent shrimp out before... They get packed in dry ice. It works well.

Yup, sure does. I've even mailed fresh Bass caught from my honey hole in Louisiana to Atlanta that flew on the same plane with me in regular ice. There was one time where it was lost....I got a call from the airline a month later that they had my bag. Seems it ended up in San Diego in summer. Hate to be the guy that found that bag!!

Instead, I suggest that computers be used as they were designed to be used: as a tool. They do not replace your responsibility to plan the dive and dive the plan. Frankly, I would love to see y'all around... And if you let the computer do the work for you, that might not happen. Get my drift?

I just read this! I agree.

Also for the record: I have used my computer in "computer" mode. I don't any more... When I found myself disagreeing with the computer, I listened to the computer. That was a big mistake. I no longer wish to be tempted to listen to the computer rather than my plan and my gray matter. So... I dive with it in gauge mode. I still like the fact that it's a quality unit that shows me tons of great information... And it logs my dives for me.

What information do you plan your dives with?

BTW, the SmartCom allows you to plan your dives and it factors in your last performances. It is a lot more accurate than doing the same with tables. (Remember what I said about divers not logging their surfacing time until they are done boarding the boat, ditching their gear, blowing their snot, getting a drink, waiting for their buddy, etc.)

I cannot comment on the Vyper or any Suunto products, as I only use the SmartCom.

Colin

coberry7

November 10th, 2003, 07:07 PM

And one more post.

I feel pretty strongly about this issue. This is designed for the original intent of this thread...

I do not like AI computers that incorporate radio transmitters. It is one more point of failure. I have seen at least once, which is enough, a customer that was not able to attach his transmitter to his 1st stage in such a way where it would continuosly transmit underwater the tank data.

Unless I get my HP line cut by something sharp, I will never have this problem with my SmartCom. I get the same features in my display as the AirZ Nitrox or other radio comps from Uwatec, and actually many more.

A hose is 'much gooder' than no info at depth!

For those who would like to forego a hose in an effort to streamline, then an air integrated computer is not for you, IMHO, unless you are willing to deal with the possibility of loss of transmission AT ANY TIME. BTW, you'll need a hose anyway to determine your tank pressure if you dive W/O a comp.

Colin

Warren_L

November 10th, 2003, 08:20 PM

coberry7 once bubbled...
For those who would like to forego a hose in an effort to streamline, then an air integrated computer is not for you, IMHO, unless you are willing to deal with the possibility of loss of transmission AT ANY TIME. BTW, you'll need a hose anyway to determine your tank pressure if you dive W/O a comp.

Colin

I dive with a wireless AI (Vytec) and have never had any problems with the transmission. It's not that I don't think it can't happen as I would be foolish to think so, since there have been others that have complained about it. For me, it might never happen, but then again, it might. I don't use it to get rid of my HP hose. I still run a trusty analog SPG on it, which is generally permanently tucked away in a pocket or under my strap. The Vytec provides me with an easy convenient way to read my tank pressure, which has so far yet to fail me. But should it fail, I know that I can find my pressure info elsewhere.

Your one more point of failure concern can also apply to hose mounted AI computers as well. A manual SPG has no battery to fail.

Groundhog246

November 11th, 2003, 09:40 AM

SeaJay once bubbled...
Think about it... The computer says that you have 10 minutes of gas left. You plan on that, and begin your ascent because you know that you've got a 3 minute "safety stop" to do. That's when you suddenly need to donate, 'cause your buddy's OOA. Weren't planning on that, were you? The computer can't make up for it, either. Do you refuse to give your buddy gas, or do the two of you suck down what was supposed to be ten minutes of gas left in. say, four minutes... Which is not enough time to ascend and do your stop! (It'd take 3 minutes just to ascend alone!)
Your examples make me wonder about your training and diving habits (no flame intended, I don't know you, only going by what I read). And someone else said "turn at 1500"!!! So 1500 out and 1500 back and on the surface with 0?
I don't dive an air integrated, I do dive a computer (cost as much as anything). I DO watch my air. For most dives it's 1/3 out, 1/3 back, 1/3 in reserve. When I reach 2000 (if diving a 3000PSI cylinder, I've some old steels too), I indicate 2K to my buddy and check his/her air remaining (after all, that's MY backup, I will also have tried breathing off my buddy's octo during gear up/buddy check), if my buddy hasn't already reached 2K and inquired of me. I know from experience that I always use more air on entry, descent, than I do on return, and tanks are often 2800 to 2900 once they're sbmerged and cool off, so we usually call the turn at 1800, unless we're doing shallow dives in an area where a surface swim is practical. (Your post would indicate a current, otherwise, call the dive and ascend now, instead of swimming to the rope). I was surprised with discussion in another thread, that some (many?) divers are unable to ascend without a guide rope. I had at least 35 dives in before I ever did an ascent WITH a guide line.
I don't expect an air integrated would change my current habits (which reflect my training), but having a display of estimated (key word that, ESTIMATED) air remaining could be educational. When diving with groups from my LDS, anyone returning under 500PSI, without having a burst hose or free-flow, etc, buy a round for EVERYONE on site. (Very few rounds ever get bought). And showing up for air with less than 500 in your cylinder had better come with an good explanation.
On the NDL side of the equation. My Oceanic will start adjusting the NDL almost as soon as I start an ascent. So rising from 90 feet to 60 feet, at the recommended 30fpm, will increase the NDL. The closest I ever pushed the computer was a dive briefed to 100 feet. I got down to 3 min remaining at a max depth of 102, by the time we had swum back to 70 feet, I was up to 6 minutes remaining and at 50 feet over 10 minutes remaining (air wise we turned at 1800 as briefed). That particular computer is very conservative, my wifes (buddy on that dive) computer never showed her under 10 minutes remaining. We did hang around the 30 foot mark for a bit before heading to 15 feet for our safety stop and added a bit of time there for good measure (since we had lots of air) and I surfaced with 800PSI.