Raja Ampat claims another liveaboard victim

[rusti999]

Just saw on Wetpixel that Mandarin Siren has sunk near Raja Ampat, apparently due to fire. Fortunately, it seems that everyone is OK.

Sunk liveaboard Raja Ampat - Total of 3 in 2010-11 - Wetpixel :: Underwater Photography Forums (http://wetpixel.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=44549)

[beaverdivers]

Sorry to hear the bad news, fortunately everyone survived.

[Brandon]

Too bad, that was a beautiful boat.

[PeCaRi]

Hi at all,

I do not know if this information is already been given, but the Mandarin Siren burnt and sunk. Luckily without injuries for the crew or guests!
See Fire claims Indonesian dive boat - Divernet (http://www.divernet.com/home_diving_news/1188619/fire_claims_indonesian_dive_boat.html)

Best Fishes

[AlMitch]

We were on the Indo Siren when we recieved the stranded guests. I can confirm that there were no injuries. The guests were clearly shaken, but ok, which is the most important thing. It really was a pretty little boat and well now it will be a pretty little wreck. It also is not too deep which means it accessible for recreational dives.

[Quero]

I've been sitting on this news for two days! I heard the stories and then received an email from the operator (as did all agents of the fleet so that we could contact our customers with bookings on the vessel before the news was made public).

There is an ongoing investigation, but it is suspected that the fire started at the location of a clothes dryer on board; the crew were unable to extinguish it, and the fire spread throughout the boat. The divers were in the water at the time, so abandoning the boat and deploying life rafts was made somewhat simpler, though of course passengers' personal effects were lost with the vessel.

As AlMitch said, the Indo Siren went immediately to pick up the divers and the crew. And then a speedboat joined up with them to transfer the divers to Sorong, where they were provided with clothing and a place to stay until they could be transferred to Jakarta. Once in the capital, they were able to get emergency travel documents from their respective missions and procede homeward.

It's a terrible blow, but at least there was only loss of material goods and there were no injuries.

[utilasusie]

Hi All Scuba Board members

This is Susie from the team at Worldwide Dive and Sail.

It is true that there was a very sad and serious incident on the S/Y Mandarin Siren. We have waited until now to make an official statement regarding the incident as we wished to contact all of our guests and agents who had bookings beforehand, so our apologies if information on the incident has been lacking. My colleague Don was able to post a brief response on the Wetpixel site however the full details on the cause of the incident are still unknown.

We have posted an official statement on our website at S/Y Mandarin Siren our Indonesia luxury liveaboard dive boat (http://worldwidediveandsail.com/ourboats/sy-mandarin-siren)

But i would just like to reiterate how saddened we all are about the incident but we remain extremely grateful that there were no injuries to our guests or crew and we are very proud of our crew for their handling of a very stressful and difficult situation.

Thanks also to the crew and guests of the S/Y Indo Siren who were on hand to offer their support also.

-Al Mitch thanks so much i hope you and Keri were able to enjoy the rest of your time in Raja Ampat

[averagediver]

just received this email from World Wide Dive and Sail

We are very sad to have to announce a very unfortunate incident on the S/Y Mandarin Siren.

During a recent diving trip, in the Raja Ampat region of Indonesia, a fire broke out below decks while the guests were on a morning dive. The origin of the fire is not yet fully confirmed but we believe that it was caused by an electrical fault of the tumble dryer in the laundry room and quickly spread to the engine room. The guests were not aboard at the time and therefore were never in any danger. Our crew did everything they could but in the end were unable to contain the blaze and were forced to abandon the vessel which was subsequently lost.

No one was hurt in the accident and for that we are incredibly grateful -- no matter how great the loss to us it could have been very much worse.

Our other Indonesian vessel, the S/Y Indo Siren, was very near at the time of the accident and steamed immediately to pick up the guests and crew from the tender. A speedboat was then dispatched to pick everyone up from the S/Y Indo Siren and return them as quickly as possible to Sorong where they were provided with fresh clothing, accommodation and assistance from our staff. The next day they were flown to Jakarta where fleet owner Frank and the team in Indonesia were there to meet them. All the guests were assisted in obtaining emergency travel documents and re-arranging travel and they subsequently flew home to be with their families over New Year.

We have endeavored to inform all our of guests who had made bookings on the S/Y Mandarin Siren, whether booked directly with us or through a booking agent. If you had a booking and have not yet been in contact please email or call us or your agent as soon as you are able.

For all of us at Worldwide Dive and Sail this is a shock and a great loss, but as said above it could have been very much worse. We are very thankful that none of the guests or the crew were injured or worse.

As a fleet we will continue to offer diving liveaboard safaris throughout Indonesia aboard the S/Y Indo Siren.

Thank you very much indeed for your concern and also many thanks to everyone else who has sent their condolences in the past days.

Best wishes for 2012 from all at the Siren Fleet

[VooDooGasMan]

WoW sorry to here.

[bleeb]

Was also posted about (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/indonesia/406568-raja-ampat-claims-another-liveaboard-victim.html) in the Indonesia forum, including a first hand report from a passenger on the Indo Siren which went to pick people up after the abandon ship.
Threads from different forums on the same event have all been merged here.

[AlMitch]

Utilasusie - we had an absolutely brilliant trip. That day was a sobering one for everyone on board. I personally felt more empathy for the crew of the Mandarin. The guests lost a few of their belongings and a day or two of diving but will go back to the homes and jobs. BUT the crew lost alot more. I really hope that WWDS will take care of the crew in this difficult time.

Need to sort through the 2000 odd photo's and video clips and put together a trip report BUT that will take sssooome time!

[kwhkg]

Siren Fleet Tragically Loses Mandarin Siren To Fire -- Nobody Injured (http://www.divephotoguide.com/underwater-photography-scuba-ocean-news/siren-fleet-loses-mandarin-siren-fire-nobody-injured/)

[bugeye]

We were on the Indo Siren when we recieved the stranded guests. I can confirm that there were no injuries. The guests were clearly shaken, but ok, which is the most important thing. It really was a pretty little boat and well now it will be a pretty little wreck. It also is not too deep which means it accessible for recreational dives.

Yup ... I was there last week and could see the hull sticking out of the water right next to Manta Sandy.

[Allison Finch]

I just returned from Raja Empat aboard the Damai. We were greatly saddened to hear about the Mandarin Siren. Having spent time on the Philippines Siren, I know what a great operation they have. It is a great loss to the company, crew, and passengers on board. My sincere condolences!

[Utila Simon]

Time to move on from the incident itself and maybe open the discussion up a little.

Of course we are all very pleased that no-one was hurt, but is no-one else concerned that this could have happened at any time... say at night whilst towels were drying for the morning dives. What if the sister ship had not been within radio range? Seems to me that Siren Fleet dodged a bullet here and it could have been alot worse. However I would contend that maybe the fire should not have had time to develop to the point where it could not be contained. I have never been on a Siren Fleet boat and have never heard anything bad about them so this is a general concern aimed at all liveaboards in the area.

As a former liveaboard Captain from the Caribbean I know the hoops that the operators and crew must jump through in order to receive their annual safety certificate. The drills required, the fire fighting equipment that must be fitted as standard, even simple items like smoke detectors. I would be interested to know what fire fighting equipement is carried by the Indo liveaboards and how often the crew are drilled in its use.
Fire at sea is the biggest concern of any liveaboard Captain and if we are to make educated choices in which boat to travel on surely we, as customers, should be concerned with the safety equipment and training and be making our choices with this in mind, rather than the quality of the soups!

All in my humble opinion, of course,
Simon

[utilasusie]

Hi Utila Simon

Some interesting points raised indeed but to say the Siren Fleet "dodged a bullet" is putting things a little strongly. If you like to follow this link you can read about the incident and how safety issues have already addressed.
S/Y Mandarin Siren our Indonesia luxury liveaboard dive boat (http://worldwidediveandsail.com/ourboats/sy-mandarin-siren.html)

Regarding you concerns
1, towels are not dried at night whilst crew are sleeping, (and a new rule is instigated that the tumble dryer is not running unattended.)
2, each Siren Fleet yacht has long distance radios & life rafts so there is no issue about the sister ship not being in range.
The S/Y Mandarin Siren was a smaller yacht of just 24m therefore the fire spread quickly from the laundry to the engine room and the 4 crew who were on board at the time were unable to contain the blaze. The guests were out diving and not in any danger.

Believe me Indonesia is not an "easy" place to operate, safety standards need to me met there as in the Caribbean. As a fellow ex-utilian i am sure you have seen some poorly operated boats in your time and whilst I cannot speak for all boats operating in Indonesia I can say that the standards of safety and quality of the Siren Fleet are extremely high.

Are you still working on the Belize Aggressor? I met some guests who were traveling with you and Andrina.
best wishes and safe diving
Susie

[Utila Simon]

Hi Utila Simon

Some interesting points raised indeed but to say the Siren Fleet "dodged a bullet" is putting things a little strongly. If you like to follow this link you can read about the incident and how safety issues have already addressed.
S/Y Mandarin Siren our Indonesia luxury liveaboard dive boat (http://worldwidediveandsail.com/ourboats/sy-mandarin-siren.html)

Regarding you concerns
1, towels are not dried at night whilst crew are sleeping, (and a new rule is instigated that the tumble dryer is not running unattended.)
2, each Siren Fleet yacht has long distance radios & life rafts so there is no issue about the sister ship not being in range.
The S/Y Mandarin Siren was a smaller yacht of just 24m therefore the fire spread quickly from the laundry to the engine room and the 4 crew who were on board at the time were unable to contain the blaze. The guests were out diving and not in any danger.

Believe me Indonesia is not an "easy" place to operate, safety standards need to me met there as in the Caribbean. As a fellow ex-utilian i am sure you have seen some poorly operated boats in your time and whilst I cannot speak for all boats operating in Indonesia I can say that the standards of safety and quality of the Siren Fleet are extremely high.

Are you still working on the Belize Aggressor? I met some guests who were traveling with you and Andrina.
best wishes and safe diving
Susie

Hi Susie,
No criticism of the Siren fleet or this particular crew was intended. However there is no such thing as a fire at sea that is not serious and end result could have been much worse. Its also good to see that the fleet can react and learn from incidents such as these and that should reassure your future clients.
My point was wider than that and applicable to all vessels in the area. Maybe to all vessels in SE Asia. It is my understanding that not all vessels carry the same type of registration and therefore differing safety sandards apply and maybe consumers should be doing their homework based on more than the quality of the food offered. IMHO

Anyway, we left the Caribbean 6 months ago and are actually in Bali having just dived Raja Ampat and worked briefly at Wakatobi/Pelagian.

Wishing you warm waters and good vis...
Simon

[maria munn]

Hi all,

Can I just say thank you very much for those of you who have been concerned about the crew on the Mandarin Siren, it has really meant a lot to my partner who worked on it, Michel, who had in fact worked on this boat for over 5 years when it was originally the "Mimpi" live aboard operated by Simone from Thalassa Dive Centre. He lived on this boat and had absolutely everything he owned on it and was in tears when he told me about the accident. He personally loved the Mandarin, so much so, that he worked on it for a year and a half without a holiday ....

On a personal note, I was really sad that I was not informed about this accident and don't seem to have received an apology despite writing to the office with regards to our belongings. I was worried sick when I didn't hear from him over New Year as we have texted each other every day since meeting last January whilst I led a trip on the same boat when it too encountered a bad accident, entering and sailing through a storm for 4 hours from Kri Island despite asking the guide if we could turn back and stay in Yenbessar village instead of going to Batanta island. Water entered the engine room that night, quite scary indeed. It shook me up for months but I was told by the marketing person in charge that I was taking things too seriously and that I needed to move on and forget it.

As soon as I heard about the accident, 4th January, I got in touch with the office asking if I could go and see Michel as soon as I finished work on 15th and would he be there? I was told that he was resting. I asked if I could buy him a couple of the gifts which I gave him for his birthday last year and for saving us all on the Mandarin in January to surprise him with, a little iPod shuffle and a Man United t-shirt which had his name on it. I asked if there was a way that I could sort it out directly with the company's insurance as I didn't want Michel to know.

I received a reply from one owner telling me that they had had a whip round for the crew for their belongings. I was quite shocked at how cold this statement was. I was then told that I needed to forward receipts (which I understood) and that the money would be repaid through Michel's bank account. I asked how Michel could then get the money to me in England for me to buy the gifts and then how was I going to get them back to him when he worked on the boat for 48 weeks of the year ... Wouldn't there be an easier way and also how I was surprised that they couldn't help me when he has worked for the company since 2009 and I have been helping them behind the scenes here promoting WWDS through my courses and talks at the dive shows and even offering to be an investor when they needed it.

I then received a stern response from the main owner telling me that Michel was scheduled to return to work on the 13th and that he was too tired from dealing with this **** to answer my email just then--choice words indeed after this kind of catastrophe and the heartbreak that everyone who lost their personal belongings must be feeling ....I was totally shocked .... I have worked with dive operations such as Nautilus Explorer, and many others throughout 10 years of working in the dive industry and have never been spoken to like this. I was simply asking if there was a way to help replace Michel's gifts to celebrate our one year anniversary, Valentines Day and his birthday .....

I saw Michel this week for one day and despite him asking the office in Makassar about replacing his belongings he simply receives a response saying that it is nothing to do with them and he has to speak to the office in Thailand. He still only has 2 t-shirts, one of them being the one which I took out for him which he gave me when I needed it ... we are both big Manchester United fans!!!

Surely we all as divers have a responsibility to look after the staff who look after us, carrying 18 tanks 4 times a day and working from 5 am until 10 pm at night for a few dollars per day should be appreciated particularly after fighting a fire to save everyone's belongings and the boat itself which he loved dearly - and the staff still keep smiling to make sure that we all have a really lovely holiday .....

I am sorry to have to bring this to the forum, but as we are getting absolutely nowhere sending emails and calling, there is sadly no choice and really hope that this can be rectified soon so that Michel can start to rebuild his belongings and we can have a future together .... I also lost a Sea Shepherd hoodie which I was really proud of - Darren from Sea Shepherd UK gave it to be because of the work I put in to raise money for them and I lent it to one of the crew to stop Anita from getting wet in a storm as she had no jacket. Michel was going to give it back to me when he saw me ...

I simply don't understand why there has been no response from anyone .... I've also found out that he has been diving to 16 metres to the Mandarin Siren without a diving licence .... :( :( :( - to say that I am shocked is an understatement .....

If lessons are to be learnt from this accident, I sincerely hope that we all as divers can appreciate the crew who look after us so well and treat them with the love and fairness that they all deserve.

Sincerely,

Maria

[Layla]

Hi Maria

I know you quite well from UK photography, if I'll see you at the show end March, I'll say 'hello'

Thank you for this insight, I'm quite shocked!

Your line below is something that we should all make a careful note of .....


If lessons are to be learnt from this accident [Manderin Siren], I sincerely hope that we all as divers can appreciate the crew who look after us so well and treat them with the love and fairness that they all deserve.

[maria munn]

Hi there,

Thanks so much for replying, I was really scared of posting but there is a previous thread on this forum about the Mimpi not coping very well in rougher seas. I really don't understand why it travelled such long distances from Lembeh to Komodo and then to Raja often turning around for the next trip the next day on trips being the smaller size that it was, sometimes even on the very same day. Michel once ended up in hospital himself and he helped to drive it!

I also don't understand why there is no effort being made to replace Michel's passport either so that we can make plans to get married ... on that note if you fancy a underwater wedding party, then just let me know!

I'm afraid that I have pulled out of the dive show due to the above ... I'd cry as soon as I walked in and saw them.

But the good news is that I will be able to spend more time helping people here on Scubaboard which I am really looking forward to :) :) :)

Thanks again and if you need any help, just let me know.

Have a lovely week.

Best Wishes,

maria

[Layla]

Many people will miss you not being at the show
I'm off to Komodo on Wednes


I'm afraid that I have pulled out of the dive show due to the above ... I'd cry as soon as I walked in and saw them.

[Siren Fleet]

Dear Maria,

We are sorry that you have had a negative experience with the team at Worldwide Dive and Sail. We received several emails from you in regards to the incident on the S/Y Mandarin Siren and your concern over the safety of one of our crew members- Michel Clive, the last of which being 5th January 2012.

Our understanding, once you were assured of Michel’s safety, is that you wished to visit him in Indonesia. We suggested you contact him directly as he would be better aware of his whereabouts than we. We then followed up and let you know he would be aboard the S/Y Indo Siren from 13th January. All of the crew of the S/Y Mandarin Siren were offered positions on our other yachts and assistance with further employment which, as I am sure you can imagine, was of great concern for all of our crew.

You also requested replacement for an ipod and Manchester United shirt that you had previously given to Michel as a gift. Company owner Mark Shandur informed you that all the crew had been given money not just by ourselves but the kind guests of the S/Y Indo Siren- which was in the vicinity at the time of the incident. Crew and guest belongings that could be claimed would be so under the company’s insurance and Michel would receive a payout. If you had receipts you were asked to send them as that would help us greatly with the claim.

With regards to Michel’s passport, Worldwide Dive and Sail provided Michel with a passport when he travelled to Thailand in 2009 prior to him joining the S/Y Mandarin Siren. That passport was lost before this incident however we would be more than happy to assist Michel in obtaining a new one should he request it. We have not received such a request from him at this time.


We fully agree with your comments regarding crew and we are proud that our crew work so hard, and always with a smile, to assist the guests and ensure everyone has a great holiday whichever yacht they are on.

In regards to your personal belongings left aboard the S/Y Mandarin Siren, as you have not previously made us aware that they were on board, there is little we can do now to claim for them.

If you would like to discuss further please feel free to pm through Scubaboard or email one of our team

Kind regards,
Siren Fleet Team

[Zippsy]

Good answer. I could not even hear the tongue being bitten.

[maria munn]

Dear Siren Fleet,

Thank you for the reply, it still seems a shame that no reply was received to my emails and that all of this had to come to the forum and I appreciate your fast response.

I still feel that the crew should have been allowed some time to spend with their partners after going through such an incident. I was in touch with Michel as was suggested by Mark and do not see why he had to come back to work just before I was due to fly out to see him under the circumstances which he had been through. As I understand, a member of staff onboard the Indo Siren was dismissed so that Michel could continue working for yourself and am sure that this could have been delayed for another 10 days so that we could have spent some time together, which would be a natural thing for any member of staff to be able to do under the circumstances.

I am pleased to hear that everything is in place for Michel's belongings to be replaced - his name is, as I am sure you aware of your mistake though is Michel Tuerah, not Michel Clive .... I hope that the other crew who were working onboard the Mandarin at the time will too have their belongings replaced - I understand that again as there was no work available for them at the time, they have had no option but to seek employment with other operations.

Michel's passport was lost in the fire and am pleased to hear that everything is in place for it to be replaced as soon as possible and look forward to hearing further updates via email. Michel did tell me that he informed yourselves about my Sea Shepherd hoodie at your office in Makassar when he was being questioned about his belongings.

There is still no reason as to why I received such "brisk" responses with strong words in them though, however, much pressure anyone is under, words such as s*** should never be used in response to any kind of work-related email.

In the meantime, I sincerely hope that he will not be taken diving again to 16 metres unless he is given full and licensed training.

Finally, I also hope that no more vessels will be at risk, this is the second vessel to have sunk in a few years and from my experience from working in the airline industry, this is quite a statistic.

Kind Regards,

Maria

[Siren Fleet]

Dear Maria

Thank you for responding to our post. As your statements are at odds our own understanding we have taken some time to investigate in order to offer a clear response to your concerns.

We have checked the correspondence date stamps and email mail spam folders and can locate no messages or communication from you after 5th January 2012. If you have sent additional messages please resend them to info@worldwidediveandsail.com in order for us to be better able to address your concerns.

Thank you for your concern over the general well being of all of our S/Y Mandarin Siren crew members. As stated in our earlier post, all of the crew were offered positions aboard our other yachts. Some have chosen to take this offer, others decided to seek employment elsewhere - to which they have been given our full support and recommendation.
Michel chose to join the S/Y Indo Siren and arranged with our Indonesia office the date for his return to work. The date for which was communicated to you on the 6th January.

According to our records Michel's passport was lost in May 2010 the S/Y Mandarin Siren was lost to fire December 2011. As Michel is working in his home country of Indonesia he has not required a passport or requested that Worldwide Dive and Sail support his application for a new one. Should he request us to do so we will more than happily oblige.

The instructor who took Michel for a dive confirms that the depth was to a maximum of 6m and conducted according to the standard safe diving practices for the PADI Discover Scuba Diving Experience, in which Michel was participating. We encourage all of our non-diving crew to learn scuba diving from our on board instructors. We believe this will enable our crew to gain a better understanding of the guests' needs but also so they can have an enjoyable experience and see some of the wonders we all regularly enjoy.

Thank you again for raising your concerns with us, please address any further personal concerns or questions to info@worldwidediveandsail.com and your query will be answered promptly.

Kind regards,
Siren Fleet Team

[dibbes]

Open letter

Following the unfortunate incident with the Mandarin Siren which sank near Raja Ampat after a fire, and the subsequent debate on this Forum I wrote this open letter addressed to the diving industry in general and the liveaboard business in Asia in particular. I hope to reach as many people as possible to support this initiative so that the working conditions of local employees can greatly improve. So if you agree, please forward this URL: http://nire.nl//open letter.htm to as many people as you can or publish it to as many diving related groups or sites as you know!

As a reply to the last thread (8 march 2012) I can say the following. As I see it the Siren Fleet Team did not give the crew members, who lost everything they got the support they deserved. Yes, they offered them a job on other Siren ships and some money, but that's the least they could do in these circumstances. The Siren Fleet Team is not responsible for the way this matter is handled, the owners are!

They have done everything for the unfortunate guests, which is good let me point that out. But why haven't they given the affected crew members the treatment they deserve? It looks as if damage control is the key and that should not be the case.

But there is more to say. You can call it symptoms of a fast expanding industry with little reflective capacity, no transparency at all and a kind of arrogant attitude (we are the best mentality). Change is inevitable and has to be seen in a broader perspective.

The liveaboard industry is big business. Huge amounts are paid to take divers to remote areas. But at what cost? Do divers realise that local people working on these boats work very, very hard for what we would call a tip? Ok you can argue that they get paid according to local laws, regulations or standards. But why let them work for up to 6 months, 12 to 16 hours a day in a row without any short break or vacation in between to be able to spend time with their families andchildren? Sounds like a modern kind of slavery to me. In Egypt the local people who work on the liveaboards usually have a break every 2 months or so to be ableto see their families at the very least.

Safety on board is important but is mostly dependant on the weakest link which is us - humans. I feel there is a high risk of safety being compromised from working such long hours. On Siren's Website (Worldwide Dive and Sail, Liveaboard diving with the Siren Fleet in Asia & the Pacific (http://worldwidediveandsail.com/)) there is no mission statement. Nothing on the site refers to the owners opinions about environmental, human rights or labour issues (like rural development, working conditions, employment security etc.) or whatever this business in these regions could affect.

For the three stakeholders involved I would suggest the following:

1. Owners: be transparent and communicate in an open way. Set up a set of rules for social conduct in the liveaboard business according to good governance practice (regional if you like). This means that people working in the liveaboard industry get certain rights based on international labour standards (like regulated working hours, pauses during work, vacation, payment etc) like we do have in Europe and the US! It's an ethical thing to do and if they've got balls, most ownersare male ;-), they will!

2. Employees: get organised. People working on the liveaboards should organize themselves unionwise. I already informed the International Labour Organization International Labour Organization (http://www.ilo.org/global/lang--en/index.htm), which has an regional office in Thailand, of this practice and asked them to do a survey. If applicable, employers in the liveaboard industry should comply with article IV of the MARITIME LABOUR CONVENTION, 2006 (see website mentioned) or at least embrace the spirit of this document. The liveaboard industry depends largely on the loyalty of their crew members. This loyalty should be recognised and rewarded accordingly.

3. Divers: get independent information. Another way to push this matter in the right direction is to get divers who consider a liveaboard trip more aware of the consequences of their choices. Transparency is the key. A possibility is to open a website with all the facts and figures about the use of labor in this business. It can be expanded with other useful information. At this moment only travel agencies have full access to most of the facts you actually want to know yourself when planning a liveaboard trip. You depend mostly on this information or on want you can find elsewhere on the Internet (ie Forums). As the publishers of dive magazines in many cases are closely linked with the industry, I don't find their information in these issues very trustworthy. With the correct information available, better choices can be made based on other information rather than just price, safety or otherwise. For the owners it can be one of their unique selling points which they can use in their marketing activities.

So three possible actions could be taken that could improve the way this industry operates. There must be many more to think of. It will be a challenge to do the right things but in this modern day and age it's an urgent appeal to the responsible owners in the dive industry to take the neccesery action so that their hard-working employees receive the same freedom to spend time with their loved ones as we are able to do so. Crew wouldn't get so tired, would work far more productively and stay with a company for the long-term thereby saving training costs and guests are far happier seeing the same faces year after year reflecting the true signs of a genuinely caring company and organically protecting and growing profit margins.

Finally, and by far and away the most important point is that we, by supporting this, also help to protect our own safety at the same time. It truly would be a win/win situation for everyone .....


Any comments please mail me at: diving@nire.nl
Thanks!


Nico de Jager

[Warmwater Wank]

Ah, the wisdom of the West returns to the East--didn't the Dutch try this before?


I'm not being pro-industry but this "us against the evil owners" tone is not what I perceive the typical local Indonesian boat crews to be expressing. True, there is only one crew I became familiar with (on the former Archipelago Adventurer II) however my rather constant reading of trip reports from other divers on this forum suggests I'm not too far off in my opinion. Read AlMitch's most excellent trip report aboard the Mandarin Siren II, posted yesterday on this forum. He not only expresses a similar observation about the crew's attitude but his boat happened to be in the vicinity of the fire. Enough said.

Anyone can slap a "Mission Statement" on a website, what matters is what a company does. I've seen nothing on this forum, or from other sources, that suggests the Siren Fleet hasn't dealt with the loss of their boat in less than a professional manner. This thread was started as a report on a tragic incident. Piling on the Siren Fleet with your own cause celebre against the liveaboard industry seems misplaced and perhaps warrants you starting your own thread.

Typically that is how it is done on SB. If you have a gripe against the industry (and we probably all have one or two...:eyebrow: ) aim it at them on your own thread, possibly on the "Liveaboards & Charter Boats" forum where it would have a wider audience. It's not like you don't make some valid points but phrases such as "sounds like a modern kind of slavery to me" or " if they've got balls" weakens the validity of your argument. I'm just sayin'... // ww

[dibbes]

Dear Warmwater Wank,

I'm not particular proud of the colonial heritage of the Dutch in the East or wherever, but it fortunately has nothing to do with this issue. Although you could argue that the wisdom of the West often has a neo colonial touch that's why I would rather say: let's get some Eastern wisdom to the West.

I'm not impressed by treads about how crew members became our 'best friends' and that they are smiling all day. To me it says a lot about the lack of knowledge about the Asian culture. Asians in general are very curious, open and they always want to know everything about your family, where you live, about your work etc. Besides that, they don't get angry in public and they do actually smile a lot. You easy get the feeling they are your friends after a week or so.

But the most important thing is that crew members don't publish on fora like this one, they don't have a voice to express what they think or feel, so how on earth would you know if they are really happy and satisfied with their jobs, their payment, working conditions etc. (besides the smiling)? Maybe by asking them after 3 months, 12 hours a day working?

It's not my intention to blame it all to the owners, although they play an important role in this. As you can read I address this letter to three stakeholders involved, they all play a role and can change things for the better.

I posted my tread on this forum as a reply to previous posts as I thought it would be appropriate. But you have a strong argument, thank you, I'll also post it on the forum you mentioned.

[Quero]

To me it says a lot about the lack of knowledge about the Asian culture. Asians in general are very curious, open and they always want to know everything about your family, where you live, about your work etc. Besides that, they don't get angry in public and they do actually smile a lot.

Dear dibbes,
You appear to be claiming though the words I've quoted above that you are especially knowledgeable about Asian culture. May I ask how you have gained your insights? To my mind, your explanation of Asian culture seems rather superficial. I think one could make similar statements about people from just about anywhere. (I.e., try this on for size: "Americans are, in general, very curious about foreigners they meet. They are friendly and open, and they want to know everything about your family, where you live, your work, etc.")

While not ethnically Asian, I have been a member of an Asian family for 36 years, and I have lived in Asia for the past 11 years. Through my experiences with my immediate and extended family, and through my observations as a resident in Asia, my first impression of your post #26 above was, he is trying to apply Western codes of behaviour in relation to Asian practices. In other words, I had a similar reaction to that of warmwater wank when he wrote:

Ah, the wisdom of the West returns to the East
I know that even after being exposed to my Asian family for 25 years before coming to live in Asia, I still had to adjust my views a great deal when I got here because the aspects of everyday life that we deem critical in the West are not necessarily the same as those deemed critical in the East. Understandably, my Asian family had become westernized from living outside of Asia for so long, and they had "assimilated" Western lifestyles and attitudes in many respects, just as I have now become more "easternized" in the decade I've resided here. In Asia, society is organized differently from the West; roles and responsibilities are apportioned differently than in the West; approaches to work (the work ethic) is vastly different from that in the West. There is not a "right" or "wrong" approach--neither Eastern nor Western is "best"; they are merely "different."

Your essay seems to suggest that only local staff suffer the hardships of life aboard a liveaboard dive boat. In fact, there are really no differences in working hours, leave periods, or supplemental benefits when comparing local staff and non-local staff on dive boats. Everybody works very long hours with very little time off between cruises. The main differences would consist of earnings potential, but even non-local staff earn very little in the scuba industry, and their expenses are always elevated (with aspects such as obtaining work permits, doing visa runs, paying for travel home to visit family, and being subject to the inevitable two-tiered pricing structure that is present throughout the region for virtually everything one spends money on).

So while I applaud your motivation to encourage equitable and humane working conditions for local hires, I wonder whether your perceptions are not actually skewed by your own cultural lens.

[tvh13]

I am going to chime in on this. I was a passenger on the mandrin siren when it caught fire and sank.

It was a tough experience. I've been boating since basically birth. This was the first major boat accident that I have been part of. Accidents happen. I lost many irreplaceable items in the fire and was in a cloud of shock after the incident. It was devastating.

In the aftermath WWDS did evey possible thing to make the best of a really tough situation. I lost a lot it is true but also WWDS lost a boat and the crew lost their things as well. My impression is that this organization cares very much for their ships, staff and passengers.

Some of the comments here seem very unfair to me.

I must say that after getting to know the crew and staff at WWDS I trust that they are committed to doing the right thing for all parties involved.