To Octo or not to Octo, that is the question. Need advice!

[Surf n Scuba]

Today I picked up my new Atomics Z2 reg from my LDS and the sales guy asks me if I am going to get a octo. Good question sales guy. He directs me at literally the cheapest octo he has around $80-$100 and says that's what he recommends. Pause.

My question is, my pops was a master diver back in the '80's and I know it was a different time back then but him and all his dive buddies, none of them had back-up regs. I'm not saying that's right but it confuses things for me when OW and AOW classes preach the importance of a octo.

I'm too new to diving (only 11 dives) to have an opinion either way. Is it pretty standard amongst recreational divers within their own setups to purchase a octo? If so, what about a Air II for instance as a replacement?

Please help me out. Thanks.

[vladimir]

It is now almost universally standard to have a backup second stage of some sort. In my opinion, it is a very good idea as well. And most dive operators, in my experience, require it.

A properly configured octopus is unobtrusive and streamlined, and relatively inexpensive. It's much easier to use than buddy-breathing, the alternative that I was taught in 1975 and your father was probably taught in the '80s. Buddy breathing requires a well-trained and practiced buddy team to do safely and easily--breathing off an octopus is simple by comparison.

I have used an Air II in the past, but now use a standard octopus, which I believe is simpler to deploy and more reliable.

[halocline]

I'm too new to diving (only 11 dives) to have an opinion either way. Is it pretty standard amongst recreational divers within their own setups to purchase a octo? If so, what about a Air II for instance as a replacement?

Please help me out. Thanks.

If you search for this topic you'll find at least one billion threads discussing the air 2 vs standard octo. They run the gamut from thoughtful discussion to pointless name-calling and insults. Have fun reading!

Yes, it is standard practice, and a requirement for most charters, that each diver has an alternate 2nd stage. This was covered in your OW class, wasn't it?

[Scared Silly]

As said, a backup secondary regulator (i.e. octo) is the norm. Many go the combo inflator/regulator (i.e. Air2) route. I will save you the reading in that the main argument for them is streamlining, the main argument against is task loading (breathing and trying to dump air from your BCD at the same time).

Buying the cheapest secondary is often the case as it will rarely be used, drug through the sand, etc. However, when it is needed it hopefully will perform as intended ( I personally seen that not be the case). For me, my secondary reg is just as good as my primary. It also just happens that I use atomic regs so my backup is a Z2.

FWIW a good analogy is with spare tires

Air2 == run flat tire
cheap backup == mini spare
std. reg == std. tire as a spare

[Surf n Scuba]

FWIW a good analogy is with spare tires

Air2 == run flat tire
cheap backup == mini spare
std. reg == std. tire as a spare

All replies have been extremely helpful, thank you. I do enjoy the analogy above and it helps put things into perspective.

Octo it is. Should I go with the cheaper $80-$100 octo the sales guy was presenting to me (unbalanced) or pick one off Lesiurepro/Scubatoys. What did you do? I'm on a budget so although I agree with the "full size spare" concept, I'm not in position to fork out the cash for another Atomic's Z2 for my spare. Thanks again guys. Your knowledge is valuable!

[Dirty-Dog]

I cannot think of any good reason NOT to have a backup regulator. Which one hinges on personal choice. We're in the "donate your primary" school of thought, and currently use AIR2s, but we've used regular octos too. Considering how rarely the octo is used (albeit it's a somewhat high-stress situation when it IS used), we don't see any real need for a high dollar octo. Well maintained, yes, but not expensive.

What matters most if that you have the equipment readily available, that it works, and that you practice emergency procedures with YOUR gear often enough that you can use it smoothly in a crisis.

[electrix]

At least look at the Mares octo so that when you give it to them upsidedown they wont get a wet first breath

[DevonDiver]

Assuming you are a qualified diver... I'd just reference you to the guidance given on equipment considerations/needs during your certification course.

Personally, I wouldn't get into the water with another diver who was too cheapskate to protect my welfare by providing an emergency air source. AIRII is an emergency air source - in that you switch to that and donate your primary regulator. There's pros and cons to that approach and that kit in particular - plenty of threads available to search here that discuss those issues.

Quality/performance of a regulator is ultimately determined by the demands that will be put on it. AAS won't be used much, tends to get knocked about by novice divers - but is critical in function if/when it is ever needed. Rugged design and simplicity are probably the most important attributes. Issues regarding performance at depth, or in cold water, apply equally to primary and AAS regulators. If you have an emergency, you want kit that'll rectify the problem, not exaggerate it.

[gmanstan]

There are arguments for both sides Air II/Oct, depends on how you were taught(donate primary or octo) But Atomic makes a great Alt(AirII) the SS1 which breaths great ,has a hose attachment for rinsing out you BC/Wing. I like it have used it at 100' to see how it performs & every so often practice breathing & ascents using just the alt., like everything else makes no sense to have emergency equipt. if your not comfortable using it.

[SC_Hoaty]

Octo it is. Should I go with the cheaper $80-$100 octo the sales guy was presenting to me (unbalanced) or pick one off Lesiurepro/Scubatoys. What did you do? I'm on a budget so although I agree with the "full size spare" concept, I'm not in position to fork out the cash for another Atomic's Z2 for my spare. Thanks again guys. Your knowledge is valuable!

If you go with the one your LDS recommended, it will serviced by them on the same schedule as your first and second stage. No hassle about gear you didn't buy from them, or any issue of getting the desired spare parts. The price is in the "right" range. Some octos are also a bit harder to breathe, so they don't free flow when not in use.

[Scared Silly]

Should I go with the cheaper $80-$100 octo the sales guy was presenting to me (unbalanced) or pick one off Lesiurepro/Scubatoys. What did you do? I'm on a budget so although I agree with the "full size spare" concept, I'm not in position to fork out the cash for another Atomic's Z2 for my spare. Thanks again guys. Your knowledge is valuable!

Unfortunately the Atomic octos are expensive. My suggestion is to watch the classified sections and ebay for a used one made by Atomic. A used one at a reasonable price will work just fine. I know of folks who have bought the older Z1 serviced and updated them into Z2 for their octos.

Edit: When I taught I advised students to breath on their octo on the way down. IF they did not like the way it breathed they should abort the dive and get it fixed cause if they did not like it on the way down they sure as hell are not going to like the way it breaths when Davy Jones comes a calling.

[jd950]

It looks like you already decided to get an octo, so this post is probably redundant, but here goes:

At least as much a s second reg for you, the octo is a backup for your dive buddy and all current dive instructing agencies teach divers to look to their buddy's octo in the event they need an emergency source of air. Many people would be hesitant to dive with you if you do not have an octo and if you dive from boats or otherwise with a dive op they may have an issue with you not having an octo.

I have no comment on the integrated inflator/octo things, as they are of no real interest to me, except to say that personally, I would avoid them.

If you can afford to do so, get a second Z2 to use as an octo. It will make future servicing easier and give you a greater range of options if you decide to mess with different regs. They are not terribly expensive.

If you want something less expensive, I have had good success with the mares MV octo. They are cheap but seem to breathe okay, have been reliable and don't have the upside-down problem.

Last, for the love of Pete, attach the octo to yourself properly and don't drag it around when you dive. Try to keep it clean and check it periodically. It is no big deal to swap to your octo every now and then during a dive and be sure it is functioning fine.

[diveprof]

Two points:
1. Always have an alternate air source whether it be of the Air II or standard octo design.
2. Service is easier if they are of the same brand or at least a brand that your LDS services (personally I prefer same brand for all stages for simplicity in case the LDS closes, changes brands, etc.) If not, this could turn into a penny wise, pound foolish thing.

[Kunundrum]

My rule of thumb as to a backup regulator is : you should be comfortable enough with it to be able to do an entire dive with it. regarless of the Air2 vs. standard Octo debate.

That being said I not a huge fan of the downstream regs for Octo's, they have a tendency to leak fairly easily with sand and debris (especially the Aqualung ABS), and when it happens on the boat it can be difficult to remedy, without a full bench of tools. Air barrels regulators (IE: XTX20 Octo) are much more reliable and resistant to the torture of "Octo" duty, however typically will cost twice as much to purchase.

I understand the appeal of the Cheap octo... mainly it's inexpensive, though that appeal can quickly fade once you have to sit out a few charters because it got full of sand and won't stop leaking.

[yodelhawk]

Hi. From one new diver to another, would you want to get into the water with a buddy that did not have the equipent to save your butt when the chips are down? In my class we practiced buddy breathing and i was not crazy about sharing a reg. Not to mention, the timing was hard as hell to get down and that was in a 12 foot pool without anybody having a real problem. Spring for the Octo.

[eelnoraa]

Consider HOG 2nd stage for Octo is budget is tight. Low cost 2nd stage, but by no mean low quality, in fact very high quality, both for breathability and construction. I have both HOG and atomic, honestly, I can't tell the difference.

[coralcruiser]

the mares mv is a great choice...

[Paladin]

Hmm. I notice no one has even mentioned the old standby skill of buddy breathing.

[buddhasummer]

All replies have been extremely helpful, thank you. I do enjoy the analogy above and it helps put things into perspective.

Octo it is. Should I go with the cheaper $80-$100 octo the sales guy was presenting to me (unbalanced) or pick one off Lesiurepro/Scubatoys. What did you do? I'm on a budget so although I agree with the "full size spare" concept, I'm not in position to fork out the cash for another Atomic's Z2 for my spare. Thanks again guys. Your knowledge is valuable!

Although Im sure all Octos, if not dragged through sand etc, will work fine I aways use the an Octo with the same performance as my primary i.e good. With the configuration I use I donate my primary so the "octo" will be the reg I breath off. One of my buddy has one of the cheap octos and it breaths like ****, better than nothing of course.

[k ellis]

One of the most overlooked things that people dont consider when getting an Octo or an Octo-Z (Air II) is that these are primarily intended for buddy emergencies. There are a few other things that can go wrong such as a mouth piece coming off a primary reg at depth though that can make having either of the mentioned devices worth their weight in Gold.

The analogy mentioned above is very opinionative as I consider my OCT-Z as running on a very reliable Spare tire. Again its just my opinion though.

I was once very in tune with having the streamlined version of the inflator/deflator and got a good Octo-Z which is a VERY nice addition to diving as its easy to use, very reliable and does stream line significantly. After I started divemastering though one thing I often ran into was playing the out of air scenario with a lone student so I had to get an Octopus for that purpose. Now I have a Octo-Z and an octo in addition to my primary. Something that may seem over kill but I really see no need to spend money getting rid of a set up that works perfectly fine.

In the end just remember this. Octos are alot like primaries in that they are each uniquely designed. Some may free flow if turned upside down upon entry, Some may not, Some may prove extremely reliable while others may not. Dont just go cheap because they are cheap. Choose one after research and find which ones are reported to stand up against the environments you intend to dive in and the situations you anticipate you may find yourself.

[gcarter]

I have an Apeks ATX40 with an ATX40 octo. I want the same performance and reliability from my alternate as I have with my primary.

[txaggie08]

Some of this depends on what methodology you go for. Why not look at a necklaced octo if you're concerned about it dangling to much? Most divers going into dangerous environments( I dive in near 0 vis while doing SAR) will run identical second stages, simply because in an emergency, you need those regs to perform....everytime.

[Jim Lapenta]

Hmm. I notice no one has even mentioned the old standby skill of buddy breathing.

William! How dare you mention a skill that some feel now is beyond the capability of OW divers. :shocked2:Along with setting up their own gear, planning a dive without an instructor, doing simple navigation, or being able to rescue their buddy or another diver. You'd think by your comment they could learn to use a BC for buoyancy while wearing a dry suit at the same time. The horror!
:rofl3:
For you new divers the previous was all sarcasm.:D There are many of us who believe you are more than capable of all this and smart enough to undertsnad far more than what you get in some OW classes.:cool2: Just could not resist.

[KWS]

I just read an article on backup regs. After thinking about it a while it and my experiences it made a lot of sence. Its rcomendation was not to make it a high preformer. Its reasoning,,, that all the bells and whistles with a hot rod second stage led to potential fail points, in that if not used debris and other crap entering the reg could foul it. for those whe nevver breath of the backkup reg it could become non functioning or poorly functioning when it came time to use it. the other aspect of it was the tendency to get free flows. Thier solution was to use a harder breathing second stage as opposed to detuning the hot rod regs to desensitise it, to prevent the free flowing and provide a socondary reg with out the baffels and gizmo's the hot rod regs have suilt into them. For me it made sence. Now i enter the water off a boat and no more free flows to imediatly have to deal with. I also now use the backup reg for a few minutes each dive. Hope this is usefull.

[Paladin]

William! How dare you mention a skill that some feel now is beyond the capability of OW divers. :shocked2:Along with setting up their own gear, planning a dive without an instructor, doing simple navigation, or being able to rescue their buddy or another diver. You'd think by your comment they could learn to use a BC for buoyancy while wearing a dry suit at the same time. The horror!
:rofl3:
For you new divers the previous was all sarcasm.:D There are many of us who believe you are more than capable of all this and smart enough to undertsnad far more than what you get in some OW classes.:cool2: Just could not resist.

Shhh!!! Be quiet, Jim! I'm trying to get a fight started here! :)

[3D diver]

Well...the thing about buddy breathing is getting your regulator back from a paniced buddy!!!

The first guy I had to hand my octo to had sucked his tank dry at 100+ feet & I had to totally manage the situation---control his bouancy, manage the accent etc. I would not have wanted to buddy breath with him.

One thing to consider when shopping for an octopus---you may be the one breathing from it.

[DevonDiver]

I can't realistically imagine ever having to buddy breathe. When would that happen? If you had two buddies who both ran out of air simultaneously?

I have an octo. It works. I check it works before each dive. I maintain ample reserve to share, appropriate to the depth I am at and assuming the receiver will have an elevated SAC. I also make sure I know what the situation is with the gas levels/consumption of the divers I supervise in the water. That situational awareness tends to significantly decrease the odds of ever having to share air in the first place (other than very rare equipment failures, or people who lie about their gas levels on dives).

[beaverdivers]

Good point 3D.

We teach Worst Case Scenario ( WCS ).

You're down enjoying life and someone comes and takes your primary reg out of your mouth ( knocks your mask off ) and heads to the surface. It may not be your buddy or even a friend, just someone panicked wanting your air!

We believe an AIR II or an Oct on the short hose ( necklace ) works in the WCS.
You are already programed to give your primary away.

[DevonDiver]

Surely the WCS would be another panicked diver coming over and trying to rip a bungeed necklace or AIR2 out and away by force? It might not work so well in that situation ;)

[beaverdivers]

A panicked diver goes for what they are in need of AIR!

They see the bubbles and go for what's in your mouth.

If they go for the A.I.R. II, it will work.

[merxlin]

For what it's worth, I had a buddy have his 2nd stage (recently serviced) stick closed (which is not supposed to happen, but parts do break) at 90 ft. No air. Nada. I was close, but all he did was grab his octo and it was all good. Without an octo, he's breathing off mine (or my primary). Had it not been his 2nd stage and an OOA, and I was farther away (bad buddy!) this could have turned out very different. I'd like to have that first option and be as self reliant as possible.

[Paladin]

I can't realistically imagine ever having to buddy breathe. When would that happen? If you had two buddies who both ran out of air simultaneously?

I have an octo. It works. I check it works before each dive. I maintain ample reserve to share, appropriate to the depth I am at and assuming the receiver will have an elevated SAC. I also make sure I know what the situation is with the gas levels/consumption of the divers I supervise in the water. That situational awareness tends to significantly decrease the odds of ever having to share air in the first place (other than very rare equipment failures, or people who lie about their gas levels on dives).

I can. Your buddy has an OOA or catastrophic regulator failure and you discover that your own secondary is malfunctioning. You both will now have to share one second stage. If you have practiced the simple, tried and true buddy breathing technique, you will both make it to the surface.

Both of my sons learned the technique during training and we practice it regularly. For us, having an octo is a convenience, not an absolute necessity. That said, we do carry them but, as I said, primarily for convenience and the possibility of diving with someone who has never been taught how to buddy breathe.

While I admittedly started this in a mischievous effort to liven things up a bit, the fact is, I really don't understand why buddy breathing isn't taught in OW classes. It isn't hard to do and just might come in handy. No skill learned is ever wasted time or effort.

[Jim Lapenta]

I also teach my students that they are in control of their air supply and to be ready to deploy an octo. They should also not be diving in a herd where someone who is an OOA and panicking because they were never taught that if you have a buddy OOA is an inconvenience not an emergency.
If they lose their buddy or did not have one in the first place, "I'm with a DM in a group I don't need a buddy:lb: doo de doop:dork:,(unless they were solo diving to begin with) they probably should not be in the water to begin with. If that is the case Darwin may sort things out quite effectively.

I dive a long hose and if I see a panicked diver coming at me I want to hand off my primary and put a few feet between us. If he takes off he is going to lose that reg because he is not dragging me to the surface. And I sure as hell am not going to let him get a hold of me from the front. I will defend my air supply and teach students to do the same. Know where their octo is and hand it off or get on it. I don't believe in the OOA diver take. I've seen people given the OOA signal and open their arms wide. Kind of like "here I am attack me". Bull.

Practice donating your octo wherever that happens to be and/or go to your back up. Learn to manage your air, plan for gas loss (stay close to your buddy or have a redundant supply), realize it is not an emergency if you are prepared for it and stay calm. Or panic and seriously reduce your chances of survival.

[merxlin]

BTW- having been given a faulty octo during an OOA event (diaphragm was completely gone), please make sure you check and service it as well as you do your primary. Usually when it is needed- it is NEEDED.

[Jim Lapenta]

Another good reason to have an octo that performs just as well as your primary. It's why I dive HOG's.

[Shftrdog]

It is almost a standard to dive with an octo. A lot of places wont let you dive with out one. I know in Cozumel you have to have one. It is a great safty thing, I would recomend getting one and you don't need to spend the big bucks either. Just get a regulor octo for around $100 to $130 and you will be fine. We have some Oceanic one's for $89.99

[gcarter]

I can. Your buddy has an OOA or catastrophic regulator failure and you discover that your own secondary is malfunctioning. You both will now have to share one second stage. If you have practiced the simple, tried and true buddy breathing technique, you will both make it to the surface.

Both of my sons learned the technique during training and we practice it regularly. For us, having an octo is a convenience, not an absolute necessity. That said, we do carry them but, as I said, primarily for convenience and the possibility of diving with someone who has never been taught how to buddy breathe.

While I admittedly started this in a mischievous effort to liven things up a bit, the fact is, I really don't understand why buddy breathing isn't taught in OW classes. It isn't hard to do and just might come in handy. No skill learned is ever wasted time or effort.

I was taught buddy breathing in my PADI OW 1-1/2 years ago in Boracay...

???

[DevonDiver]

I can. Your buddy has an OOA or catastrophic regulator failure and you discover that your own secondary is malfunctioning.

Ok.. let's be honest. How difficult is that to avoid?

Proper diligence on preventative maintenance, kit inspection, effective buddy checks and awareness/responsibility in the water. That's all.

Maybe it's another good argument for a bungeed backup/primary donation - but when I get into the water, knowing that I'd have to use that AAS if I needed to donate air (via the primary), then I make very sure of it's functionality. Even to the point of taking practice breaths from it at an early point in the dive (think modified s-drill here).

If a diver jumps into the water, habitually ignoring the 'yellow plastic thing' that they've got dangling by their knees, or stuffed in a pocket, paying it no regard whatsoever - is the lack of buddy-breathing skills that's the problem? Or is it the sloppy attitude and failure to apply any proactive measures to ensure dive safety?


While I admittedly started this in a mischievous effort to liven things up a bit, the fact is, I really don't understand why buddy breathing isn't taught in OW classes. It isn't hard to do and just might come in handy. No skill learned is ever wasted time or effort.

I get what you're saying... and I'm mostly playing devil's advocate for the opposite camp. I don't teach buddy breathing. I have a finite time with my students in the water. I'd rather spend that extra 10-15 minutes of practice time hammering better AAS drills into them. The principle, as elucidated by Bruce Lee; "I fear not the man who has practices 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."


BTW- having been given a faulty octo during an OOA event (diaphragm was completely gone), please make sure you check and service it as well as you do your primary. Usually when it is needed- it is NEEDED.

Buddy checks? :)

[merxlin]

Buddy checks? :)

It breathed great on the boat ;). The problem was a shot diaphragm so underwater it also let a lot of water in.

[DevonDiver]

It breathed great on the boat ;). The problem was a shot diaphragm so underwater it also let a lot of water in.

It's part of my set-up check. A quick breathe from the reg before you turn the air on - will alert you to such problems.

It might let water in (not ideal), but that doesn't render it inoperable.

If you can breathe from a free-flowing reg, you can breathe from a reg with a busted diaphragm or exhaust valve. ;)

[Oldbear]

When I took my OW I used the Dive Center’s equipment, which had an Octo set-up. When I purchased my own equipment shortly afterwards, I was advised to use the Air2 and forego the Octo in order to streamline. They also recommended I use a dive computer instead of a SPG. At the time it made logical and good sense to me. Now that I look back on that, I think it was unwise for that LSD sales person to recommend such a method to a new diver; but as a certified diver I have to ultimately take responsibilty for the purchase. Since then, I have watched and learned and for me personally, I dive with redundancy; a wrist dive computer and either a console computer or SPG along with a primary regulator and an Octo. If I am in my BCD I also have the Air2; if in my BP/W no Air2. I totally understand that with diving there are risks involved that could prove fatal and I want to minimize them at all costs, thru training, proper use of equipment and dive techniques, redundancy and not taking short-cuts. I think there are better ways to streamline than to increase my perceptional risk (I saw perceptional risk because for other divers these risks are minimal).

While I am not a Tec diver, I see advantages to using a 7' hose on my primary and a short hose on my Octo with a necklace harness. I have never had to deploy it in an emergency situation; but I like the idea of space between me and a panicked diver. Both my regs are identical only the Octo has a yellow faceplate. On every dive I now practice with both regulators to increase and maintain my familiarity and proficiency. This works for me and I am very comfortable with it (within my risk tolerence level).

I am still open to new ideas and will try them if they seem reasonable to my diving comfort levels, as an indicator many of my posts are seeking addition information and advice. And that is why I really enjoy ScubaBoard…I have learned so much it has definitely enhanced my diving experiences. But at all times my safety is paramount to me and my family.

~MIchael~

[SrLagarto]

...look at the Mares octo so that when you give it to them upside-down they wont get a wet first breath...
...that's an important point, too - I chose an Apeks Egress for that same reason. I'm sure these aren't the only two alternate second-stages that work well upside down, but it's worth remembering that although we're trained to donate in an OOA situation and can therefore provide the alternate correctly-orientated, it might not happen 'according to the script' in the heat of the moment!

[Paladin]

My favorite single hose regulator is my Conshelf 14. Because of the way the ports are configured on the first stage, I have my SPG and primary second stage coming off the right side and my inflator hose and octo coming from the left. It took a little time to get used to but one of the benefits is that the octo is "right side up" when offered to another diver. My primary is on a 3' hose and the Sea Elite SX40 octo is on a yellow, 3 1/2' hose. I tell anyone diving with me that the yellow-faced reg on the yellow hose is for their emergency use, if needed. But that shiny, metal one in my mouth is mine. Don't even think about grabbing for it, 'cause you ain't gonna get it.

Of course, when I'm diving vintage style with my double hose Aqua-Master, it's buddy breathing or nothing, pal! :D

We have some older single hose regulators that do not have ports for octos that we like to dive as well. In that case we are prepared to resort to the old buddy breathing techniques. I don't advocate a total return to the old no octo style of diving for everyone, but I do think it's a skill that should be taught, if for no other reason than as a confidence builder.

Like was said earlier, an octo that works on the surface can fail at depth. It doesn't hurt to have a fallback plan.

[merxlin]

If you can breathe from a free-flowing reg, you can breathe from a reg with a busted diaphragm or exhaust valve. ;) Yes you can! And I did.