Article on Rodales gear review scams

[backinthewater]

Check out the article on CDNN on Force Fins forcing Rodales to pay for alleged equipment ratings scam.


http://www.cdnn.info/industry/i031113/i031113.html

[jviehe]

Here is a good discussion on that subject from the rodales message board archives, in 2001.

http://dive.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=214966&t=214966

"And I'm happy to restate for the 15th time ScubaLab's gear acquistion policy: We solicit ALL manufacturers for EVERY review of the gear category we are testing. Of those who refuse to send us items for reviews, we purchase their gear on the open market when that gear is (1) for recreational divers; (2) is in national distribution and (3) is a piece of gear our readers should know about.

-Exec Ed."

[chrpai]

Dont you love when CDNN posts a link to an "independant gear review lab" and then doesn't disclose that they are affiliated with that lab?

I don't trust Rodales, but I sure as heck don't trust CDNN.

[theskull]

One could also question what determines national distribution. When I was interested in buying Force Fins (before I had a chance to try them--ugh, what stinkers they were once I got hold of a pair) I could not find a Dive Shop in MO that carried them, and Force Fins refused to sell them direct to me on-line!

One local dive shop told me they refused to carry them because Force Fins would not provide just 1 pair of loaners for their instructors to try out before deciding if they were worth selling. To be a dealer they would have to first place a substantial order of various sizes. I understand Force Fins' position perfectly having had a chance to dive them myself. Perhaps if you had to buy them first you would make yourself learn to like them since the money was spent.

theskull

[ScubaRon]

It contains no facts, no verifiable information, just plain gossip about a competitor. I never had a high opinion of CDNN in the first place, but they just sunk 140' deeper on my charts.

As for Rodales testing: their methodologies are usually sound. It is virtually impossible for anyone to test all available brands and models of diving gear and I find it understandable that Rodales gives some priority to their own customers in the selection of which types to test. Every information source - even Scubaboard - has its own bias. As long as you keep that in mind - and use multiple sources for input - you can still get good information out of reviews like Rodales'.
:snorkel:ScubaRon

[OneBrightGator]

jviehe once bubbled...
Here is a good discussion on that subject from the rodales message board archives, in 2001.

http://dive.scubadiving.com/talk/read.php?f=1&i=214966&t=214966

"And I'm happy to restate for the 15th time ScubaLab's gear acquistion policy: We solicit ALL manufacturers for EVERY review of the gear category we are testing. Of those who refuse to send us items for reviews, we purchase their gear on the open market when that gear is (1) for recreational divers; (2) is in national distribution and (3) is a piece of gear our readers should know about.

-Exec Ed."

Does anyone know why they didn't/don't test ScubaPro and Sherwood regs then?

Ben

[cyklon_300]

http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34453&perpage=15&display=&pagenumber=1

[OneBrightGator]

Thanks, I checked out the thread, any ideas on Sherwood though?

Ben

[h2onut2]

While I admit I do read Rodale's Tester's Lab just to see what is up with gear, there have been WAY too many instances where they are too inconsistant to be taken seriously.

Over the past 10 years they have given either a Tester's Choice (okay, this I can swallow... many people are clueless), a "Best of the Best" rating to or reported that"

LOVED one major manufacturer's regs that went 100% unchanged in the next season, and were given a TERRIBLE rating in that next season.

A BCD's power inflator on a mail ordered bcd was "Dangerous at any depth". This bcd was made by one of the top bcd OEM's at the time, who also manufactured for Scubapro, Genesis and Sherwood, among a few others, and used that same power inflator on 1/4 of the bcd's on the market that season. 2 of which recieved one of the 2 favorable ratings and of course never said a word about that "dangerous at any depth" inflator. (I might add that in that particular writing they were bashing mail ordered gear in any form)

Gave a Tester's Choice to a fin that was "New" that season for an off-brand manufacturer, while over the previous years that the EXACT same fin was on the market by some of the more main stream companies, was never even given a remotely "average" rating.

And even now, in this current year there is a manufacturer with a computer in their catalog being promoted as their "New for 2003" computer and was given Rodale's Tester's Choice Award that is 100% identical to a computer that another manufacturer last had in their catalog in 2000. I'm holding one in my hand right now and comparing it to the Tusa Web site as I write this. The technology wasn't new in 2000 and Rodale's HATED the computer then. I know "Retro" is in, but that's just down right insane.

And these are just a few examples...

So, all in all, I guess what I'm getting at is take what you read with a grain of salt. They may give good info on what you see in the magazine, although not much different than you can get from reading a manufacturer's catalog, but as far as what they consider is the "Best" for what ever reason? Even they admit their results aren't scientific and are just some other diver's sometimes misguided opinions.

[shrwdtech]

Sherwood's new regs weren't done in time to be used in Rodale's tests for this season. In previous years our regs haven't changed, so there really wasn't a huge reason to have the regs tested again.

Look for them to get looked at in the future as we will have some design changes due to be released over the Winter.

Scubapro has their own issues with Rodale's rather similar in nature to H2o's comments above. They have mainly to do with inconsistancies in the process. As I recall, Scubapro requested to not be tested or included until further notice, but that may not be totally accurate.

[Greg_Manko]

You always have to take equipment reviews with a grain of salt!
This is true for almost any type of gear.
Anytime you have human beings judge something - scuba gear or figure skating - you are going to have controversy and enigmatic results of the "best one year/worst the next year" variety, etc.
My bet is that ScubaPro simply didn't like playing in a "review lottery". When I purchased my SP reg I asked the LDS owner what he dove with. Of course, he might have got it at a huge discount. But a lot of sporting goods companies give shop employees and instructors discounts.
Gear reviews are great as a summary of what's out there and as a comparison of product features, but they sure ain't gospel.

[5615mike]

OneBrightGator once bubbled...


Does anyone know why they didn't/don't test ScubaPro and Sherwood regs then?

Ben

Don't know if you ever read Sport Diver but it looks to me like SP has moved to SD in a HUGE way and has mulitiple page ads, like 8 in the last one. Again, as stated in one of my previous posts, I don't understand why any lab or review group that is UNBIASED is needing anyones permission to test gear that is available to the general public. So why would Rodales even listen to SP request of not to test their gear anylonger?

Well, now I'm off topic. Sorry:off:

[jviehe]

5615mike once bubbled...


Don't know if you ever read Sport Diver but it looks to me like SP has moved to SD in a HUGE way and has mulitiple page ads, like 8 in the last one. Again, as stated in one of my previous posts, I don't understand why any lab or review group that is UNBIASED is needing anyones permission to test gear that is available to the general public. So why would Rodales even listen to SP request of not to test their gear anylonger?

Well, now I'm off topic. Sorry:off:

To avoid lawsuits

[5615mike]

jviehe once bubbled...


To avoid lawsuits

Oh boy......this is going to sound like I'm trolling, so in memory of our old friend Karl......"Ad Hominum", that one's also for you as well Cornfed.

Why don't you expand on your answer.

[jviehe]

5615mike once bubbled...


Oh boy......this is going to sound like I'm trolling, so in memory of our old friend Karl......"Ad Hominum", that one's also for you as well Cornfed.

Why don't you expand on your answer.

It's possible that if Rodales says something bad about a product they will be sued (much like as with force fins), so they get permission from the company to review a product. If SP says no, they dont reveiw them, then SP cant sue them.

[5615mike]

jviehe once bubbled...


It's possible that if Rodales says something bad about a product they will be sued (much like as with force fins), so they get permission from the company to review a product. If SP says no, they dont reveiw them, then SP cant sue them.

That's BS. Well, not really...It should be but your right......you can sue anyone for anything but reaping financial rewards from it is an entirely different situation all together. This is part of the problem with the good ol' US of A. Everyone wants to blame someone else for their problems or misgivings. Don't get me wrong, if someone has been wronged I'm all for going after them. But lurking around corners for someone to sue is like tryng to win the lottery......oops...... :off:

If an agency/lab is TRUELY an independant voice and they have statisical data to back up their reports/findings, I said reports, not opinions, then the mfg. is going to have to prove there was intent on behalf of the agency/lab to harm before they would find any liability and win any award. If the mfg does not like the statistitcs of their product, well then they should have better QC program. If you don't want improper performing products on the market then you should not release them. Allowing mfg. to send the products in for review is a joke. Very easy for them to send R&D products that look exactly like what is on the market or they can send specifically tuned products for a better review. IMO Reviews and tests should always be done with over the counter purchases just like any other end user would acquire them.

Just because someone says something about your product/service that you do not agree with does not mean your due any financial return.

just my .02 worth

[SubMariner]

Here's what's up on Rodales D2D about this suit:

http://www.scubadiving.com/article/0,7424,99-7-0-584,00.html

Interesting, eh?!

[jviehe]

SubMariner once bubbled...
Here's what's up on Rodales D2D about this suit:

http://www.scubadiving.com/article/0,7424,99-7-0-584,00.html

Interesting, eh?!

Now, the question is, wo do you believe? Personally I choose Rodales, as I've bought several things based on their reccomendation and have never regretted it.

[MikeFerrara]

theskull once bubbled...


One local dive shop told me they refused to carry them because Force Fins would not provide just 1 pair of loaners for their instructors to try out before deciding if they were worth selling. To be a dealer they would have to first place a substantial order of various sizes. I understand Force Fins' position perfectly having had a chance to dive them myself. Perhaps if you had to buy them first you would make yourself learn to like them since the money was spent.

theskull

I owned a dive shop for almost 4 years and never once did ANY manufacturer provide anything free for us to try. Never never never.

scubapro wanted an $18,000 first order. aqualung was almost $13,000.

[ElectricZombie]

I did notice that a year or two a go, none of the Apeks regs received a perfect score. In the latest issue, every Apeks reg they tested got a perfect score. Could this be because Apeks is now their main advertiser since SP left? Apeks is a good reg but it seems like Roadales has been inconsistant with their current reviews based on their past findings.

[tingkka]

Rodale Scuba Diving magazine just gets worse and worse.

[Norm]

I take most gear reviews with a grain of salt. Here are some of my observations, which agree with several other readers:
If you take most owner's opinions - whatever they currently own is "the best".
If you look at most magazines their biggest advertiser will usually have "the best" and if you look at whomever gets the worst review, or is not included, they usually are not an advertiser!
I once talked with a diveshop owner/instructor while on vacation. I walked in wearing a "brand X" cap, which he made the mistake of pointing out to one of his prospective buyers. When I said to him, "Let me tell you about that "brand X" gear", he quickly humbled himself and begged me to shush. After the customer left, disillusioned, he admitted that I was right, "brand X" would last forever with little or no maintenance and that he himself usually dived with my brand! (He admitted that he couldn't get a dealership at his location)
In other words....who can you trust? Trust no one. The school of hard knocks is bulletproof. What works for you works best. Big names and big bucks aren't always the best. I've seen some decent stuff in off brands and I have surely seen many lemons in top brand names. Use good sense, good judgement, and proceed slowly. Usually a company that has a good reputation for standing behind their gear, way down the road, builds reputable gear. JMO Norm