Ice Diving Technique

[Westwinds]

Ice Diving Technique

I am looking for some advice / information in regard to ice diving harnesses and safety lines.

What type of harness and tether are you using?
Who manufactures them?
What materials / techniques did you use to make them?
What are the advantages / disadvantages of your system?

Pictures and website links would be very helpful.

Westwinds

[KVDIVR]

I can help you with Ice Diving info. Have been active & certified Ice for 15 years. I keep getting logged off this site before I can finish & post my reply. E-mail me at kvdivr@comcast.net. and I will be glad to work with you.

kvdivr

[JDostal]

We use yellow poly rope. I believe it is 3/8 or 1/2 inch rope, I would have to double check to be sure.

We have on rope specified as "rescue rope" that is twice as long as those used by the regular divers. This rope is tethered to the "rescue diver" in case of emergency he has much more line than any other diver to do sweeps.

Colored duct tape can be used to mark the line, as well as a sharpie marker. Red sharpie for 100's, black sharpie for 10's.

To do a harness you can make a very simple one by using some nylon webbing formed into a figure eight loop and wearing it as a harness. It's hard to explain but I can go into further detail if you would like. You just kinda twist the loop into a figure eight and then put it on w/ the twist behind your back. It's quick and easy. Disadvantage is the fact that it's not as sturdy. My LDS is also a rock climbing shop so they've got lots of webbing and have a bunch of 'em made up.

Tethers. We have locking carabiners tied using bowline knots to the poly rope. This carabiner is typically attached to a D-Ring on the harness or BCD. Most of my group have D-Rings built into their backplates or BCD's so harnesses are usually a non-issue.

We then make a second bowline knot in the poly rope for a handhold to better feel the signal tugs.

To store, deploy and retrieve the poly rope we use the simple garden hose storage things you can get at any hardware store. They stand by themselves and have a big spool to roll things up on. Makes it pretty easy. Just toss the spool onto the ice and run out the rope. When you are done just reel it back up. We have several rope bags but it sucks trying to put them back together. The reels/spools work great.

To attach the rope to the ice, we use titanium ice screws - once again obtained from the rock climbing portion of our dive shop. Very secure and ridiculously strong. They are also extremely easy to get into the ice.

These are all pretty much off the shelf parts. The rope and spool can be obtained at a hardware store, not brand specific.

The 'biners and the screws are somewhat expensive but our shop loans us the screws. They've got an ice-diving bag full of biners, harnesses and screws they'll loan us whenever we need them.

I don't know brands on the screws and 'biners, but just about any will work.

That's a general overview of what we use. Kinda what you are looking for???

[KVDIVR]

Hi

I do not have any websites as I said but I have been an active certified ice Divemaster for 15 years. I hope you are certified before attempting to Ice Dive. As I said Ice diving is great, but it is a dangerous sport without the right training, gear and support people. Done properly, it is a gear & support people intensive sport.
Although most people that take Ice training are police and fireman training for under ice recovery, there are some brave souls that just want to do it (like my son). Lots of things can and often enough do go wrong under the ice. Mostly regulator failures. Your regs should be rated for ice diving to have the best chance of this not occurring. You should use an ice harness that you have to climb into in some fashion, either full body or jacket style, with 2” d-rings sewn in a few different places but preferably in the upper chest area. This makes it easy to hold the line away from you and also to reach the line should it slip from your hand while diving. The harness is the first thing on and the last thing off. It is not wise to clip into the BC! If for any reason you have to remove your BC underwater (like fishing line entanglements) you will always be connected to the surface with a harness. (first thing on last thing off). If you have a harness made, be sure it is sewn together well and the d-ring will not rip off. It is your only connection to the surface. I will see if I can find the name of the company we got the harnesses from.
The line HAS to be a floating line (approx 3/8”) and should be a very hi breaking strength. My lines are 1000lbs. This is to help insure the line does not break while being heavily pulled on by the tender in an emergency, or if it get caught on something, severing your life line to the surface. We use 200ft lines with locking carabiners attached to both ends. One end locked onto to the diver, the other locked to an ice climbing screw on the surface about 15ft from the hole. The lines should be dressed out over the ice, not in a pile, to avoid entanglements. There is another very important piece of equipment between the diver and the ice screw, an experienced line tender for each line in the water. There should also ALWAYS be a rescue diver completely geared up and attached to a rescue line, (we use a 600ft line) sitting on the surface ready to drop into the water for an emergency, whenever divers are in the water. You should have a tent with a propane heater to get divers out of the cold, to get dressed into and out of their suits, as well as line the tenders whose hands get wet and cold tendering the line. Propane or gas stoves to always keep hot water available should a second stg diaphragm freeze up just as divers are getting into the water. Also a good idea to have soup on the stove throughout the day.
There is still more stuff, but this certainly gives you a lot to think about.

Dive safe
KVDIVR

[JDostal]

I did forget to mention our regulator tank configs.

We are using Poseidon Odin/Jetstreams with either doubles or H-Valve configs on large PST E8-130's. This allows us, in the very rare case of a Poseidon failure to easily switch to our other valve after shutting the failing valve off. We also dive a long hose config to facilitate donating air.

[KVDIVR]

Yup

that would be more of the info I mentioned. Absolutely need a redundant air supply. We use doubles with manifolds but students normally use the "H" valves. I actually use Poseiden Odins myself with ice / environmental caps full of absolute. The only problem with Odins, is the 151psi required for the Odin is high for ice and if you do get a freeflow an Odin can empty a tank in short order if not brought under control quickly. Sherwoods are excellent because they are completely dry and the intermediate pressure is lower. I also used Mares MR12-III,s with environmental caps and the IP set to 120psi for many years with no issues.

KVDIVR

[Westwinds]

Question?? Are you Ice certified already??

I am a Padi Ice Instructor. The reason for my inquiry is simple. I like to continually review my techniques and approaches to different activities. I then use the "best practices" when teaching my classes. In this case I was looking for alternatives to the ice diving setup that my LDS uses.

Ultimately, I am acquiring the necessary equipment to bring a group of certified ice divers on some pleasure ice dives. We have some great wrecks in Southern Ontario that would look great under ice. I am also a digital photographer. The way the wrecks are lit under ice is very mystic. I want to capture that on "film".

Westwinds.

[cloned_person]

Hi,

I am going Ice Diving next year in Germany, and will be taking two sets of regs (it is a proper training course).

I am using Poseidon Jetstreams, I believe the first stages are the same as Odins, I have the black environmental cap to fill with alcohol of my choice (vodka I believe is the best...), which is then zip tied on. Any one know of anything alternative and more robust to use inplace of the environmental caps and easier to fill.

Thanks

[MikeFerrara]

I just use sealed diaphragm regs and don't have any problems.

[KVDIVR]

HI Westwind

Glad to hear the Instructor reply. Well between myself & Omicron there is a bunch of info. The wreck diving under the ice is pretty cool. It gives folks something to do in the cold water. When you do the trip post some of the pictures for us to see. As you said the lighting is kind of mystic. Does the ice there normally have a thick snow cover, or is the ice pretty clear? Both offer quite a different perspective on the environment below.

Dive safe
KVDIVR
PS
I am working on the info for the harness. I am waiting for a call back.

[JDostal]

As a way to add more light, shovel lines away from the hole.

When you cut the triangle hole in the ice, get a snowshovel and start shovelling a long line away from the hole - one line to each side of the triangle.

We make them quite long. You will now have three lines radiating away from your hole. Now, shovel "arrow marks" in the line that point towards the whole. Usually one right by the hole, one near the end and one in the middle.

In addition to letting a little more light through the ice it has the added benefit of making a much larger target for ice divers to see...just in case.

I tried making an ASCII drawing of it but they don't post well here...

[Westwinds]

Thanks for the information that you have posted, many of the ideas and techniques described are similar to, or the same as, what we are currently doing. It’s satisfying to know that the techniques that have been outlined in course outlines are current and up to date. I have gained some new ideas and insight through discussions on the board.

I’m interested in the techniques used to cut the ice. Traditional I have used chainsaws and augers however over the years I have grown to dislike the gas and oil machines because of the environmental impact. I also dislike diving through oil slicks.

Are you aware of any materials or products that clean up the oil residue of the chainsaws and power augers?

Westwinds

[mddolson]

When the ice is snow covered, a good technique is to shovel the snow, with spokes on the surface, and a radial path , like the rim of a bicycle wheel around the entry hole.
The spokes all lead back to the hole and the rim marks the outer boundry of your dive area. A second rim can be added at half the outer radius to the hole.

The Spokes can have V's or arrow heads pointing back to the hole.

I addition to adding light, it creats a visual reference for the divers, positive and direction to the exit hole.

Regards

Mike D

[mddolson]

Historical I have stayed away from Poly line and favoured nylon. I say historically because techniques change.

The reason is the supeior strength of nylon, and the way it stays tied, unlike polypropylene.

Polypropylene floates however, which can be a very desireable under the ice.
Especially if there are entanglements on the bottom. So a knot (bow line) with the leads taped with duct tape secures it so it will not untie.

In situations where we recover snow mobiles from under the ice, we have used combinations. ( There seems to be one or two sleds that fall thru the ice every year, not to mention the odd pick up truck)

We prefer to use a nylon line on the divers and poly line on the tow rope for the snow-mobile.
This technique helps prevent accidental entanglement.

Mike D

[mddolson]

ATTACHED IS A DIAGRAM OF THE SHOVELING PATTERN


Mike D

[Seadiver5]

Hello. Just to qualify myself. I am a certified diver with the AAUS (american academy of underwater sciences) and I have extensive Arctic under ice diving experience.

We have found that Mountaneering Runners work the best. they are worn in a criss cross fashion (figure 8) around your arms with a simply stainless steel biner between your head and the tank. This allows the diver to be pulled up through the Ice Hole if he can't help himself out.

Since our safety cables are also our comm cables we do need to take into consideration sufficient slack after the fast for free movement of the divers head... If you prefer not having the line made fast behind your head you can also do it on your chest but at the possible expense of not being able to be pulled free of the Ice hole. In many areas that may not be as big of a concern as it is in the Arctic where the Ice is often 30 feet thick.

Kevin Parkhurst
IDEA Instructor 3402

[MikeFerrara]

Thanks Kevin,

We use a harness and back plate for all out diving so we don't need a special harness for ice diving.

We don't have any comms and, generally speaking, doun't want any lines around our valves. Our holes are about 10 ft across and the ice isn't any where near 30 ft thick so pulling some one through isn't an issue.

[mddolson]

In addition to wearing a harness to provide a secure and safe attachement, point for the tether, It also provides a permanent and secure way to pull an injured diver out of the hole, after the backplate/harnness have been stripped off.

I wear an upper body harness in addition to a backplate and harness when I ice dive or if I'm in a stiff current.

Mike D

[KVDIVR]

Like I said in my other post "the harness is the first thing on and the last thing off". I also like an upper body harness or the full one. I have seen instructors use a step in type rope climbing harness that is only on the waist & legs. In an emergency a tender trying to pull a diver back with this harness can be real hard if the diver loses his grip on the line and you are trying to drag them by the waist back to the hole. The pull should be at the back of the neck or at least high in the chest area to avoid unnecessary drag. The diver should always have control of the line in his hand for hand signals.

Dive Safe
Kvdivr

[KVDIVR]

Westwind
I was wondering if Instructors are including emergency manifold / valve shutdown for free flow failures

[Scubaddawg]

Look at this, This Harness was desigend by the The Public Safety Diving GURU Butch Hendricks.
http://s1059kxm.leisurepro.com/webapp/commerce/command/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=4828&prmenbr=946

Or go to www.teamlgs.com

[JDostal]

Not a bad little piece of gear...I still think I'll stick to just attaching to my harness though.

[mddolson]

OMG,

That's me!
Quick call my agent, I'm missing out on model's fee.
Just kidding ,
I signed a release, for the use of the photo in publications.
LOL
I had no idea it made it way to Leisurepro's catalog though.

regards

Mike D