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DandyDon
February 6th, 2012, 04:48 AM
For this story, the references to Sudafed mean the old pseudoephedrine medicine, not the other med now being sold OTC under the Sudafed brand name.

This hits close to home for me as may have pushed the limits on buying pseudoephedrine at times solely for shopping convenience. The various pharmacists I've asked about the limits really weren't very informative, and it seemed like they were just trying to enforce requirements without actually understanding the various aspects. One I used to buy from would sell me several boxes of 24 count, 30 mg at a time, but now I know that Texas has a vague 2 package/day limit regardless of contents. Selling Pseudoephedrine Products (http://www.tsbp.state.tx.us/pseudoephedrine.htm) That pharmacist kept a handwritten record and reported monthly so I hope I didn't raise any flags.

That link also lists federal purchase limits of 3.6 grams/day and 9 grams/month. I take hay fever meds daily and like to stock up on my monthly trips to Lubbock where I can find such cheaper than in Plainview, but I seldom spend the night so that won't work. I don't use more than 4 grams/month I don't guess, but I like to keep plenty on hand. Wow, this is all so detailed compared to the first several decades I took similar meds.

The state laws are stricter for this weird story and her son's actions complicated it a lot. Several newspapers are carrying a shorter version of the story that omit some important details, but I want to offer the longer one: Woman says innocent trip to Ala. spirals into meth charge | The Clarion-Ledger | clarionledger.com (http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20120205/NEWS/202050350/Woman-says-innocent-trip-Ala-spirals-into-meth-charge)

Unless she wins her appeal, a Mississippi grandmother who spent $8.98 on a box of Sudafed must serve a year in jail.

For Diane Avera, a 45-year-old Meridian woman who does personal care for the sick, disabled and elderly, it has been a nightmare, she said. "I keep thinking I'm going to wake up, but I never do."

She is seeking a new trial in Demopolis, Ala., after being convicted of second degree intent to manufacture methamphetamine. If she loses, she plans to appeal to the Alabama Court of Appeals.

Crackdowns taking place across the nation on pseudoephedrine and other products used to make methamphetamine have caused her to become a "prisoner of the drug war going on inside America," said her husband, Keith. "When common household medications and disinfectants are now illegal to possess, I believe we have gone overboard with the drug laws."

In 2009, grandmother Sally Harpold was handcuffed and jailed in Indiana (How did Indiana get stuck in this story? Journalistic mistake I suppose?) after she bought a box of Zyrtec-D cold medicine for her husband and a box of Mucinex D cold medicine for her adult daughter in less than a week.

Mississippi has one of the nation's strictest laws, requiring a prescription to purchase pseudoephedrine.

Marshall Fisher, director of the Mississippi Bureau of Narcotics, said since the law's enactment, his agency has seen a 67 percent decline from the 960 meth labs it found the year before and an 80 percent decline in children endangered by meth labs.

While it is illegal to bring pseudoephedrine products back to Mississippi, authorities don't target those who do, unless they have been arrested in the past, he said.

"We have enough to say grace over without doing that silliness," he said. "The last thing we want to be responsible for is targeting grandma."

Avera, who has three grandsons, had no prior arrests. "The only thing I've ever had is a speeding ticket," she said.

On July 29, 2010, she was getting ready for a scuba diving trip in Panama City, Fla., with her husband and others.

Her scuba instructor, Bob Sample, had urged her to buy Sudafed or similar decongestant because she had ear trouble. "I told her to go get some three days out and get your sinuses dried up," he said.

After waiting too late to get a prescription, she stopped at the Walmart pharmacy in Meridian. There, she said, a clerk urged her to travel to Alabama, where Sudafed is sold over the counter.

She picked up her son and his girlfriend, who were living in Toomsuba. She also had two of her grandsons as well as the girlfriend's nephew.

They traveled to Demopolis, where police were conducting a sting operation. Pharmacists there informed police when anyone from Mississippi bought medicine containing pseudoephedrine.

Avera said she encouraged her son and girlfriend to each buy a box of Sudafed since they lacked health insurance. They stopped at CVS, where her son purchased Sudafed D.

She bought Sudafed at Walmart since she had a gift card, she said. She also bought crayons and glue sticks for her two grandsons starting school the next week.

After leaving Walmart, she said police officer Sgt. Tim Soronen pulled her over and asked, "What brings you to Demopolis?"

"I came over to buy some Sudafed for our scuba diving trip this weekend since we cannot buy it in Meridian anymore," she said she told him.

She said the officer asked if she knew it was against the law to cross the state line and buy Sudafed. It is against the law in Mississippi to bring back pseudoephedrine products from another state, but Alabama law permits those from other states to buy the medicine as long as they sign. (Then why is Alabama prosecuting her?)

"No, sir, I did not know," she said she replied.

"I need you to step out of the car," he said.

"For what? I swear I didn't know. What did I do?" she said she asked.

"You came to Demopolis to buy some Sudafed. Step to the back of the truck," she said he told her.

The officer pulled her son from the truck, handcuffed him and searched him, finding a bottle for methadone.

She said she explained her son has had drug problems and that the methadone is a prescription.

"So he's a drug user?" she said the officer asked her.

She acknowledged her son's drug woes and said the officer began digging through her purse and asked if she had any drugs.

"No, sir, I don't do drugs," she said she replied.

Digging beneath the truck seat, officers found a pouch full of drug paraphernalia for crack cocaine. (Her son testified he had hidden the pouch, which was his.)

She said the officer remarked, "Thought you don't do drugs."

"I don't do drugs," she said she replied.

After she saw the crying children placed in the squad car, she said the officer asked if she wanted him to go ahead and call the Alabama Department of Human Resources "to pick up these kids."

A scene from her youth flashed into her mind of her brothers being taken away from her family by state welfare officials, she said. "I begged the officer, 'Please don't do this.'"

By this point, about an hour after being pulled over, she said she began begging the officer, telling him she would admit to whatever police wanted as long as they would "let my son take my babies."

He told her she had to confess all the Sudafed was hers, thereby putting her over the legal limit in Alabama, she said. "They made me admit to a crime I did not commit."

She began her statement: "I picked up Larry and Shanna from there (sic) house and came to Demopolis to buy some Sudafed for myself ..."

She told The Clarion-Ledger, "They told me to add that I was making crystal meth so I did."

She ended her statement: "I did not know it was against the law to cross the state line to purchase Sudafed. I promise to never buy another box in my life."

Contacted for comment, Soronen would not discuss the case.

Police jailed her, charged with intent to manufacture crystal meth. She said they handcuffed her hands and legs to a metal chair for 17 hours.

During the three-day trial in Marengo County Circuit Court, prosecutors used her statement against her.

District Attorney Greg Griggers said Avera confessed she was buying pills to have them cooked so she could get meth.

While out on bond, Avera took voluntary drug tests, and none came back positive. Some tests listed her creatinine level (related to kidney function) as "abnormal."

Griggers argued she had provided diluted samples. "She would water it down so you couldn't test it," he told The Clarion-Ledger.

Avera's attorney, John Wiley Hartley of Montgomery, responded that no one who administered the tests ever claimed the samples were diluted.

Griggers said Avera admitted to authorities she started using meth with her daughter and had been using for two years.

"That's a lie," Avera responded.

She said she acknowledged her children have struggled with drugs and have gone into rehab, but that she has never used drugs.

If she fails in her appeals, she would face the prospect of going back behind bars, she said. "I still am facing 10 more months in jail if I don't win."

She said she is frightened about being cut off from her grandchildren. "I've practically raised my two grandsons."

mike_dippert
February 6th, 2012, 11:15 AM
It's a shame our society has reached this point.

I worked at a CVS in Indiana for 3 years. We always had people getting denied for Sudafed b/c they reached the monthly limit (in grams). Some looked legit, but most looked like they had a lab in the kitchen. It may be wrong to profile people, but meth users have certain physical characteristics that give them away. I've personally seen someone who looked like an addict come in with an older woman (looked like grandma), she bought the largest quantity of the CVS branded Sudafed along with her RX. I am certain the guy (grandson) was going to use it for drugs.

People who haven't been on the enforcement/prevention side of the OTC drug epidemic think its black and white. It's not. Those making meth do everything they can think of to get their ingredients. Sometimes innocent people get caught up in it. What she did was illegal by Mississippi law. What the trooper did is very wrong. A good lawyer should be able to keep her out of jail.

Here in Indiana, the RX has scan the back of your driver's license to ring up anything containing Psuedaphedrine. The date and qty you purchased goes in a state wide database. This country needs a national law and system like this to keep situations like this from happening. If you need more than the OTC legal limit, get a prescription.

BDSC
February 6th, 2012, 02:13 PM
For some reason, after reading this article, I have my doubts about her story.

DandyDon
February 6th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Having used decongestants for decades, I initially viewed the restrictions to my daily OTC meds as a worthless inconvenience. I usually don't keep track of how much I bought and when, there is no way for me to look that up on the records used to bust someone, and my home dive bud even had me pick up pills for him at times. The companies can't market the meds like they used to so the choices have become limited and more pricey, and I really didn't think it'd slow the meth makers down much - altho it does seem to be helping. I still don't understand why combination pills with PSE + antihistamine are covered as I don't think the meth makers could use those, but maybe they could. :dontknow:

I guess it's high time for me to learn to cooperate with this system. The locally owned store that kept hand written records with monthly submissions really left me open to unintended abuse, but they're long gone now - so I guess I'll be safe only buying at the bigger stores with instant electronic tracking.

For this lady's story, we're only getting one side of course. From it, one would think that any lawyer could get her off, but she was convicted. Allowing the cop to search the vehicle was unavoidable with the children onboard, and I can understand her desperate feelings beyond that. All pretty messy.

BDSC
February 6th, 2012, 03:01 PM
Yep. Sad case all around.

Tao of the Dive
February 6th, 2012, 04:09 PM
Wow...I'm at a loss. I really doubt the validity of her claims. For her to say the officer told her to put in her statement that htey were going ot cook meth, and she did it...highly unlikely. Of the 15 years I worked as a cop, 2 of those years were on an undercover drug unit. More years than i care to rememebr were working major cases in CID. And whenever anybody was making a statement, it was their statement. We no more would suggest what to put in that statement, than we would tell them a good atorney that would help them get off the charges...it just doesnt happen. It sounds like her son left her dangling in the wind, and now she has to fight her way out and pick up the peices.

@Dandy Don- I use a generic OTC allergy pill from Wal-Mart that I use before dive trips. It's even safe for anybody who has high blood presure. It's a little yellow pill, and you can buy as many bottles as you need, at least at my wal-mart you can. Might be a suitable repalcement for the pseudofedrine.

k ellis
February 6th, 2012, 04:30 PM
No comment

TSandM
February 6th, 2012, 04:39 PM
First off, I'm with the person who said they doubt the story. It's just too convenient that she was in a car with a drug addict son, and it makes no sense that they ALL bought Sudafed "because they had no health insurance".

I work in an ER in a meth-ridden part of our state. Methamphetamine is by far and away the worst recreational drug there is -- it's worse than cocaine, and cocaine is bad. Meth causes strokes and heart attacks that disable young people. It causes stunning premature ageing, and meth addicts lose all their teeth. It also causes irrational behavior and aggression, and it is more powerfully addictive than heroin. The manufacture of meth is hazardous; the chemicals and the careless handling render properties which have been used for meth cooking hazmat sites, and I have seen more than one case of horrendous burns from meth house explosions, which often involve children. Although I am a Sudafed user from time to time, and I don't particularly ENJOY the process of having to go sign for the stuff, I approve wholeheartedly of efforts to make it more difficult to manufacture this ghastly material.

koozemani
February 6th, 2012, 04:58 PM
The way a pharmacist here in AZ explained it to me was that even though each pharmacy maintains a log, the log is not shared with other pharmacies of other chains. Therefore you could buy a box at walmart, a box at cvs, and so on without raising red flags. I think meth is a terrible blight, but when you're trying to stock up for a dive trip...

Magnolia3
February 6th, 2012, 05:19 PM
@Dandy Don- I use a generic OTC allergy pill from Wal-Mart that I use before dive trips. It's even safe for anybody who has high blood presure. It's a little yellow pill, and you can buy as many bottles as you need, at least at my wal-mart you can. Might be a suitable repalcement for the pseudofedrine.


I have ADD... ephedrine in any form makes me like a gerbil on crack. I think the pill you are refering to is called Chlor-Tab its a generic form of Chloratrimeton. That is the same pill that is in my bee sting kit. Cost is $2.72 for 100 pills totally legal. DD might want to experiment with the dosage though. I take one pill but I am five three, 120lbs. My 6 foot tall 160lb son takes two and sometimes three to dry him up.

Like others I find this woman's story quite suspect, or as we say in the South, that dog don't hunt.

DandyDon
February 6th, 2012, 06:04 PM
Yeah, we're only looking at one side of the story, as reported by a journalist - and there are certainly some weak spots to it. Whether true & innocent, a victim of some poor judegements and an overeager cop, or otherwise - it still bears considering. Many Instructors and fellow divers have encouraged others to use pseudoephedrine, the generic name of the drug that gave original Sudafed its name, also called PSE - me included, and we've shared meds and shopping at times. Times are getting tougher, with Alabama requiring a doctor's script and from other sources Kentucky considering the same. If the program really is reducing the meth problem, then more states or even the feds requiring patient prescriptions is the next logical step I suppose.


The way a pharmacist here in AZ explained it to me was that even though each pharmacy maintains a log, the log is not shared with other pharmacies of other chains. Therefore you could buy a box at walmart, a box at cvs, and so on without raising red flags. I think meth is a terrible blight, but when you're trying to stock up for a dive trip...
Yeah, I have read news stories of meth gangs doing just that and getting arrested. I'm not going to try it. The law specifically limits daily purchases to 3.6 grams or 60 - 60 mg pills. If instant electronic tracking is integrated thru a state clearing house, then over buying will be prevented. If totals are compared later tho, and the possibility of clerical errors plays in, what if some bored official notices where you bought at two stores the same day, over buying the limit, and sends the DEA after you? Innocent until proven guilty, but handcuffs, police booking, jail, news stories, lawyer fees, etc, still required. Actually, I may have overbought at times from that local store that kept handwritten records, and I may have bought there and at Walmart the same days - but I won't again! (That local store was closed a few months ago by the DEA by the way - for more serious problems, and bought out by CVS.)

My favorite pill for the last 20 years is the combination of pseudoephedrine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine) hydrochloride 60 mg as the nasal decongestant and triprolidine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triprolidine) hydrochloride 2.5 mg as the antihistamine originally sold as Actifed. When my local store closed, before shopping the chain stores - I tried buying some from a Canadian pharmacy, which did limit purchases to 7.2 grams. Now I am a little nervous that that business might report that December purchase in January, the same month I bought a 48 ct Wal-act box in Lubbock - which I discovered had better prices, but I can only buy one box a day. :shakehead:


I have ADD... ephedrine in any form makes me like a gerbil on crack. I think the pill you are refering to is called Chlor-Tab its a generic form of Chloratrimeton. That is the same pill that is in my bee sting kit. Cost is $2.72 for 100 pills totally legal. DD might want to experiment with the dosage though. I take one pill but I am five three, 120lbs. My 6 foot tall 160lb son takes two and sometimes three to dry him up.

Like others I find this woman's story quite suspect, or as we say in the South, that dog don't hunt.
It really amazes me how many people are taking antihistamines and/or decongestant but seem to not know what they are or the differences. It does seem to be a very common lacking. The lady in the story was buying combination pills with both I think, as I mentioned above that I prefer, but Chloratrimeton is an antihistamine, not at all similar to PSE. See
Decongestants - definition of Decongestants in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Decongestants)
vs
antihistamine - definition of antihistamine in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Antihistamine)
But if that antihistamine works fine for you, cool. :thumb:

I used to carry a bottle of ephedrine liquid as a cowboy to administer shots in the field to cattle trying to die on me on winter pastures. It'd get one up on his feet so I could load him for transport to sick pen and saved many. One in particular went down on me again after transport, it was dark and snowing, and I was desperate to get him out of the trailer and into the sick pen for food, water, and antibiotics - so I gave him a second shot. Seemed to work ok, but then I found him dead the next day where he'd jumped halfway thru a wall. Never overdosed one again. :shocked2:

k ellis
February 6th, 2012, 06:26 PM
I agree with Tsandm. I have been in the field and worked in a hospital and man the effects of Meth are just totally unbelievable. I saw a girl come into the emergency room and cause a stir when we ended up having to arrest her I thought she was about mid 50s. Turns out she was only mid 20s. I have dealt with people who were on cocaine, marijuana and much much more but nothing can compare to the ill effects of Meth. I just cant fathom why people go and buy products that explicitly warn about human ingestion and then mix them all together just to get some sort of high.

and if this aint bad enough then check out this video link Tulsa Police Meth Explosion - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kq7zj8Kd_Q)

Magnolia3
February 6th, 2012, 06:33 PM
It really amazes me how many people are taking antihistamines and/or decongestant but seem to not know what they are or the differences. It does seem to be a very common lacking. The lady in the story was buying combination pills with both I think, as I mentioned above that I prefer, but Chloratrimeton is an antihistamine, not at all similar to PSE. See


True but I am not a kid, and over the years I have tried them all at one point or another. Chlorpheniramine maleate aka chlor-tabs do not have the gerbil on crack effect on me. I really hate that feeling of having drank 10 dble shots of expresso one after the other. Others around me are not fond of me when I am in the throws of some antihistimines either.

My comment was based solely on the fact that more and more antihistimines are becoming prescription only. This particular brand is not and is fairly inexpensive. OTOH, what is legally available to you out of the US? I know I buy cinnazine (sturgeron) when I am in the bahamas for motion sickness, swear by the stuff but it is not even sold in the US.

I don't take a lot of the stuff in any case. My usual triggers are cold dry air, where my body tries to over compensate for the lack of humidity. Some perfumes and the occasional cold or when the lugustrum bloom in spring.

koozemani
February 6th, 2012, 06:36 PM
I generally use an OTC product for diving. I believe it's called "allerclear". It dries me out just enough. I haven't used any of the controlled products* for some time, but they did pep me up quite a bit.

*controlled but legal, ie sudafed

DandyDon
February 6th, 2012, 07:08 PM
Oh, I'm sure that Meth is a major problem, and I guess I should be more supportive since the law seems to help reduce it...


True but I am not a kid, and over the years I have tried them all at one point or another. Chlorpheniramine maleate aka chlor-tabs do not have the gerbil on crack effect on me. I really hate that feeling of having drank 10 dble shots of expresso one after the other. Others around me are not fond of me when I am in the throws of some antihistimines either.

My comment was based solely on the fact that more and more antihistimines are becoming prescription only. This particular brand is not and is fairly inexpensive. OTOH, what is legally available to you out of the US? I know I buy cinnazine (sturgeron) when I am in the bahamas for motion sickness, swear by the stuff but it is not even sold in the US.

I don't take a lot of the stuff in any case. My usual triggers are cold dry air, where my body tries to over compensate for the lack of humidity. Some perfumes and the occasional cold or when the lugustrum bloom in spring.
Ok, you are still confusing the two types of chemicals. Decongestants are not Antihistamines, very different, but you are using the words interchangeably. It does seem that you should avoid decongestants, while antihistamines work well for you and are all you need. That's great, but knowing the differences and using the correct names is preferable.

Cinnarizine is an antihistamine of sorts but more, not allowed in the US. There are some cautions about it, so you might want to read up on it.


I generally use an OTC product for diving. I believe it's called "allerclear". It dries me out just enough. I haven't used any of the controlled products* for some time, but they did pep me up quite a bit.

*controlled but legal, ie sudafed
Scheduled is the term I think. Allerclear is Loratadine, from which Claritin originally got its name. It's an antihistamine, altho you might have taken AllerclearD at times which is a combination with PSE. Several in my family take one 10 mg a day of that antihistamine and I found 400 for less than $20 including postage at Amazon.

ben_wilson3301
February 6th, 2012, 07:22 PM
She did have stuff for crack in the car. I would have arrested her too. If the son gets convicted she should be in the clear if she was able to pass a drug test.

TSandM
February 6th, 2012, 07:48 PM
Just because I can't resist education . . . Nasal or sinus congestion can have a variety of causes. Some congestion is due to viral illnesses, and some is due to allergies which cause tissues to release substances that cause blood vessels to dilate and become leaky, resulting in swelling.

Antihistamines go to the root of allergic problems, by preventing the interactions that cause the blood vessels to become dilated and leaky. They are completely ineffective in treating congestion related to viral illnesses or chemical irritation (eg. pool water chlorine).

Decongestants like pseudoephedrine are vasoconstrictors. They make the blood vessels constrict and get smaller, thus relieving swelling. As such, they can be effective in BOTH viral problems and allergic problems. Because they are sympathomimetics, which means they're related in their action to adrenaline, they can produce some of the same effects as adrenaline -- raised blood pressure, rapid heart rate, and a feeling of shakiness or anxiety.

TOPICAL decongestants, like Afrin, are also vasoconstrictors, and very powerful ones. They are also effective in both kinds of congestion. They have fewer systemic side effects, because the dose is concentrated where it's needed. They do, however, have a very BAD side effect, which is rebound. The constriction of the blood vessels they cause is severe enough to starve tissues for oxygen and nutrients. As a result, the tissues produce tons of mediators designed to cause vasodilation, and when the drug wears off, the congestion is often worse than it was to begin with. With repeated use, this gets worse, which is why the labels always say not to use the drugs for more than 3 days.

PansSiren
February 7th, 2012, 12:09 PM
If someone was on a mission to get Sudafed for the purpose of making meth.... they would have gotten a lot more than 3 boxes. I believe her story. For one, who thinks of SCUBA diving on the spot to cover up a lie? I can also see the "oh, why don't you buy a box because you don't have insurance?" - They see how it's prescription in one state, so a normal person would think it's because it's strong and that it probably works good. Innocent unknowing people won't assume it's to regulate meth production. So no insurance to pay for a doctor when you're sick and get a script for meds, might as well get a box of magic for the future while you're at a place that sells it.

Having paraphernalia in the truck totally screwed her, and I'd probably make an arrest if I were the cop, too. BUT I still believe her story and think she should have won in court. Users often carry, and she even said upfront that her son used (wrong move), so why would there not be a pipe laying around? She also wouldn't have brought that up if she was on a mission to make meth.

The police report thing is pretty crazy, but unfortunately, I would put my money on it being the truth. After going through the system once myself, I've experienced and heard all sorts of similar things. I used to trust and believe in the system - until I've personally seen how FILTHY and CORRUPT it really is.

I could be wrong, but the story is all completely plausible in my opinion. The kickers are the 3 boxes of it - they would have had more if they were making meth, and she wouldn't have said her son was an addict BEFORE the cop found a pipe.

formula1mb@aol.com
February 7th, 2012, 12:25 PM
Did the scuba instructor ever confirm he told her to buy sudafed? If he can back up the story, I imagine that would really help her case.

DandyDon
February 7th, 2012, 12:38 PM
Good point, Sans. If they were out to make meth, they'd have bought a box for each person. You are limited to buying one box/day, but if the stores don't check with each other? Like I said above, I've read of gangs doing that - buying a box each in different stores.

Did the scuba instructor ever confirm he told her to buy sudafed? If he can back up the story, I imagine that would really help her case.
Another good point.

Doubler
February 7th, 2012, 12:39 PM
Question? What did she do to cause the cop to pull her over in the first place? A good lawyer will get this thrown out no matter how guilty of cooking Meth she is. He did not have probable cause. Buying Sudafed is not against the law. How did he know they had all bought multiple times? More to this story for sure.

DandyDon
February 7th, 2012, 12:43 PM
Question? What did she do to cause the cop to pull her over in the first place? A good lawyer will get this thrown out no matter how guilty of cooking Meth she is. He did not have probable cause. Buying Sudafed is not against the law. How did he know they had all bought multiple times? More to this story for sure.
There was a sting in action...

They traveled to Demopolis, where police were conducting a sting operation. Pharmacists there informed police when anyone from Mississippi bought medicine containing pseudoephedrine.

But that conflicts with this part...

She said the officer asked if she knew it was against the law to cross the state line and buy Sudafed. It is against the law in Mississippi to bring back pseudoephedrine products from another state, but Alabama law permits those from other states to buy the medicine as long as they sign. (Then why is Alabama prosecuting her?)

PansSiren
February 7th, 2012, 01:28 PM
At least with fireworks here in Colorado, you have to have an out of state ID and vehicle registration to buy them and agree that you are traveling through and aren't shooting them off in CO (HAHA!). BUT they are legal to buy in our neighbor Wyoming. They often have 'sting operations' around holidays for people bringing fireworks back into the state, but I believe they are always waiting on the CO side of the state line.

electrix
February 7th, 2012, 01:37 PM
Good luck, I quit reading when I got to the methadone.

theduckguru
February 7th, 2012, 02:09 PM
Call me jaded, but everything reported about Mississppi seems to be come out of a twilight zone episode. I try not to ever reason it out.

Ayisha
February 7th, 2012, 03:47 PM
...she wouldn't have said her son was an addict BEFORE the cop found a pipe.

Except that the cop had already found the methadone, so an addiction was obvious.

I am surprised that the son was allowed to carry a legitimate dose of methadone. Around here, people are prescribed methadone and consume the dose each day in the methadone clinic/pharmacy in front of the staff. They are not allowed to leave with it unless they can show a plane ticket/confirmed itinerary and the doctor prescribes and allows them to take the daily bottles with them for travel.

Methadone is also addictive and they get high off it as well, which is why it's use is sustained and it's a huge money-making *legal* drug business. It was designed to be used for two weeks to aid in withdrawing from drug use.

I didn't know Sudafed was controlled in Canada, but I only buy a box every couple of years for those just in case days that I might be a little congested before diving. I try to avoid using Sudafed when I dive with Nitrox on deeper dives, as the risk for oxtox may increase according to DAN articles.

Shasta_man
February 7th, 2012, 06:12 PM
My first thought is why would a divemaster ever recommend they dive on decongestants...

Thalassamania
February 7th, 2012, 06:24 PM
Yeah, the grandma's story sounds fishy, yeah, meth is a blight on the universe, but I have a whole lot of trouble with: "Intent to ..." laws. Intent is a question of interpretation, perspective, and degree.

DandyDon
February 7th, 2012, 06:55 PM
My first thought is why would a divemaster ever recommend they dive on decongestants...
Many Instructors do, as said in the story - not a DM.

k ellis
February 7th, 2012, 07:14 PM
The question of why was she stopped is a simple one. The pharmacy made a complaint and thus law enforcement is obligated to investigate. Its sort of like if I called in a DUI and gave them your tag number they would be obligated to pull over the driver if they catch up with them. People often overlook that not every situation reqiures an offense to occur in front of an officer to justify intervention.

One instance would be if a neighbor called and said their neighbors were fighting and he witnessed the husband beat his wife to a pulp they can come out and request to speak to the wife. Should the husband block the door and not allow the officers to speak with the wife to determine her well being they can without a warrant or permission from the husband make entry into the home to check the wifes well being.

The bad thing about law enforcement is so many jail house lawyers put bad information out there and get people into some serious trouble.

Now as to why it raised a red flag is if they ALL bought sudafed then it would be a question of why someone needed that much sudafed and it would raise a flag. Is it illegal? In the state of Alabama no it is not so long as they do not exceed their legal limit of purchase. But it would still be a flag.

Now do I agree with medication laws as an opinion? No I do not. I think its pathetic that any state would make honest law biding citizens suffer because people want to kill themselves.

84turboz
February 7th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Yep, pseudoephedrine is a big problem. Just ask a CVS pharmacist. CVS got fined 75 million by the feds in 2010.. CVS to pay $75 million fine in meth case - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cvs-to-pay-75-million-fine-in-meth-case-2010-10-14)

mike_dippert
February 8th, 2012, 07:53 AM
Yep, pseudoephedrine is a big problem. Just ask a CVS pharmacist. CVS got fined 75 million by the feds in 2010.. CVS to pay $75 million fine in meth case - MarketWatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cvs-to-pay-75-million-fine-in-meth-case-2010-10-14)
And thanks to this case, Pse products may only be purchased at the RX counter (not the front check-outs). You'd think no big deal (and it shouldn't be), but some people (paying with a check) cause a scene over it. We even had a pharmacist almost get fired because he personally rang up Pse on a register at the front of the store. It's on camera and everything. CVS doesn't mess around with this anymore.

Spd 135
February 8th, 2012, 09:07 AM
Living in a Border Town to Mississippi, where possession w/o a prescription is illegal (Mississippi), we work closely with the Narcotics officers there. Meth makers hire people and pay them up to $50.00 a box to go to Louisiana and buy psuedofed. Meth labs in our area is a terrible problem and having the "specific" precursors in a vehicle is usually found on a stop made after a purchase. Many times we have to have a haz-mat team take possession of a vehicle, motel room and such for clean up. It is terribly dangerous, especially if the vehicle is a rolling meth lab, meaning they are making meth in a bottle while moving around the highways. If you were involved in a crash with a rolling lab, and you walk up to check the occupants, you may breath fumes that will ruin your lungs and shorten your life................it is that dangerous.

I hate the new limited purchase law because I can't use the new psuedo product and when I need it I can use it as directed and cannot purchase another box until a certain amount of time expires. From Fall til summer it is a battle for me, but this meth epidemic is so terribly dangerous.

DandyDon
February 8th, 2012, 11:40 AM
It amazes me that anyone still takes checks...


I can use it as directed and cannot purchase another box until a certain amount of time expires.
Spd, the federal regs allow us buy a box up to 3.6 grams one day, then another the next day - but I had hell finding that info. Several druggists I asked didn't understand. Maybe you misunderstood the wait time and should try again sooner?

In Texas, we are limited to one box a day even if it's just 24x30 mg pills = 720 grams, altho my old local store that kept written logs allowed me to buy more many times since neither of us knew. Since that store was closed by a more serious sting, I'm a little nervous about those mistakes. I'm sure I never went over the gram monthly limit tho.

mike_dippert
February 8th, 2012, 12:48 PM
It amazes me that anyone still takes checks...


Spd, the federal regs allow us buy a box up to 3.6 grams one day, then another the next day - but I had hell finding that info. Several druggists I asked didn't understand. Maybe you misunderstood the wait time and should try again sooner?

In Texas, we are limited to one box a day even if it's just 24-30 mg pills = 720 grams, altho my old local store that kept written logs allowed me to buy more many times since neither of us knew. Since that store was closed by a more serious sting, I'm a little nervous about those mistakes. I'm sure I never went over the gram monthly limit tho.
The fed regulation basically follows proper maximum dosage per the box. So as long as you weren't regularly taking more than recommended I wouldn't worry.

DandyDon
February 8th, 2012, 12:59 PM
The fed regulation basically follows proper maximum dosage per the box. So as long as you weren't regularly taking more than recommended I wouldn't worry.
Yes, the maximum suggested is 4x60 mg/day = 7.2 grams/month, well under the limits...
IF it's not too much trouble to go to the store 3 times a month;
IF the store stocks the pills in larger quantity boxes so that it's only 3 times a month;
IF all of the individuals needing the help can go separately; and
IF your state doesn't get carried away and enact stricter laws.

Liquid Pleasure
February 8th, 2012, 01:15 PM
Just do what the stars/wealthy do. Go to your doctor get a prescription for Oxycodone and become a prescription drug abuser. It must be ok! After all it was prescribed by a doctor.

WSOPFAN
February 8th, 2012, 09:56 PM
How in the world is this a scuba related court case? Just because the woman said she was getting some drugs for a dive trip? This story has nothing to do with a court case related to scuba activities PERIOD. Crossing state lines to buy a drug you can't get where you live and attempting to return with it is just asking for trouble. Then you tell people to get extra and you claim you don't know drug crap is under the seat? Please ........go to jail granny.....you are not fooling us.

DandyDon
February 9th, 2012, 12:23 AM
nevermind

DandyDon
February 11th, 2012, 04:03 PM
I stopped by the Plainview CVS to shop their prices and availability for Actifed or similar, but the pharmacy lines were horrible. Skipped.

Got by the Lubbock Walgreens for Wal-act today. Today's pharmacist seemed more knowledgeable about the limits and regs, or maybe sometimes the others don't explain it all because of the hassle to state regs repeatedly when they don't make sense. She said that Lubbock had a daily limit lower than the state's or fed's - under 3mg. Seems like the desire to regulate more than federal limits is increasingly popular in many places - for hay fever meds...!

I guess it'll just keep getting worse, discouraging the manufacturers from wanting to provide at competitive prices or the stores from carrying choices.

DandyDon
February 13th, 2012, 06:37 PM
Arrrg! :mad: And it is indeed getting worse...!

I stopped by the Walgreens on two different days in Lubbock this past weekend and stocked up on Wal-Act. Fortunately my usual needs are much less than limits allowed, but fitting my shopping into the limits can be challenging.

I spent an hour on calls (including hold times) to the three local, chain stores just trying to learn what they carried in pseudoephedrine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine) with or without triprolidine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triprolidine) and the choices seem to be falling rapidly. I understand their positions, as the sales are a lot more trouble for them, with reduced incomes. If I want the best prices month to month, I really need to repeat the calls, update my shopping info, then plan my errands. Funny local examples...

Amigos has a store label of the old Actifed. They don't carry it here but will order it for me, and their prices are better than Walgreen's - but they carry it in a 24 ct box, half the size of Walgreen's - so I have to go in twice as often picking up one box/day max.

Amigo's price on straight PSE is much cheaper than Walmarts or CVS, but the biggest box they carry is 24 - 30 mg, which means more trips at a box/day. Well, I use their sister store for my grocery shopping; maybe I'll just have to change groceries.

Walmart did carry a 48 - 30 mg of PSE at a decent price last fall, but not now. All they have in PSE is 20 - 120 mg, and their price is less than half of CVS's, but - the 120 mg just doesn't really fit my approach. Grrrr!


This is all pretty silly. :silly:

DandyDon
February 15th, 2012, 06:45 PM
Damn Damn Damn...!


Amigo's price on straight PSE is much cheaper than Walmarts or CVS, but the biggest box they carry is 24 - 30 m
After all that, I made it to town today, stopped in to get the 24 - 30 mg for $1.49. "That's $4.99 sir." "What?! I was told $1.49?" They came down to $3.49. :silly: I decline, then the druggist went on and on about her costs, how much trouble it is to sell PSE, etc. Yeah, yeah - knew all that already. "That girl was just here for that day. I heard her talking to you, but she gave you the wrong price." :mad:

I ordered the 24 ct of store brand Actifed for next trip.

This is going to keep getting worse...!

jc1350
February 16th, 2012, 04:35 PM
Phenylephrine doesn't appear to be an effective decongestant when taken orally due to it being metabolized too easily. There are several articles referencing this including References section of Phenylephrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine)below the Questions about effectiveness section.

I did some research into this a few years ago when it seemed like phenylephrine didn't work for me. Now I know it doesn't work for me. Glad I stopped throwing my money away and with bitterness I jump through the hoops to get the proven effective decongestant.

DandyDon
February 16th, 2012, 05:14 PM
Phenylephrine doesn't appear to be an effective decongestant when taken orally due to it being metabolized too easily. There are several articles referencing this including References section of Phenylephrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine)below the Questions about effectiveness section.

I did some research into this a few years ago when it seemed like phenylephrine didn't work for me. Now I know it doesn't work for me. Glad I stopped throwing my money away and with bitterness I jump through the hoops to get the proven effective decongestant.
The Wiki article is pretty damning, isn't it. I like this excerpt...

Questions about effectiveness

Pharmacists Leslie Hendeles and Randy Hatton of the University of Florida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Florida) suggested in 2006 that oral phenylephrine is ineffective as a decongestant at the 10-mg dose used, arguing that the studies used for the regulatory approval of the drug in the United States in 1976 were inadequate to prove effectiveness at the 10-mg dose and safety at higher doses.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-Hendeles2006-10) Other pharmacists have expressed concerns over phenylephrine's effectiveness as a nasal decongestant,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-UFL-0) and other clinicians have indicated concern for regulatory actions that reduced the availability of pseudoephedrine.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-pmid16484253-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-BJM-12) A subsequent meta-analysis by the same researchers concluded that there is insufficient evidence for its effectiveness,[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-Annals-13) though another meta-analysis published shortly thereafter by researchers from GlaxoSmithKline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlaxoSmithKline) found the standard 10 mg dose to be significantly more effective than a placebo.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-GSK-14) Additionally, two studies published in 2009 examined the effects of phenylephrine on symptoms of allergic rhinitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergic_rhinitis) by exposing sufferers to pollen in a controlled, indoor environment. Neither study was able to distinguish between the effects of phenylephrine or a placebo.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-danzig09-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-yao09-16) Pseudoephedrine[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-danzig09-15) and loratadine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loratadine)-montelukast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montelukast) therapy[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-yao09-16) were found to be significantly more effective than both phenylephrine and placebo.

The Food and Drug Administration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration) has stood by its 1976 approval of phenylephrine for nasal congestion as the debate continues.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylephrine#cite_note-HeraldTribune-9)
So I'll keep jumping thru the hoops as you mentioned, the hassles of comparing prices and availabilities here in the wilds of west Texas, try to not attract the attention of drug enforcement officers, etc. I think a physicians prescription would make buying more than 3 grams possible, and we may soon need that anyway.

DandyDon
February 28th, 2012, 03:21 AM
Here I have been working at getting the details right on the regulations and limits, making sure I am in compliance - not an easy task at all as the info is hard to find, while also shopping for better prices with the reducing supplies and increasing prices. If my actual usage stays below daily maximum doses, I thought I might stockpile my hay fever meds for when it gets even more difficult and expensive to buy.

Then I read about a lady pleading guilty to possession of too much pseudoephedrine?! Excuse me? WTH? Sure enough, additional searching discovered even more rules...!!


Possession of Precursor Materials

The Texas Controlled Substances Act criminalizes the possession of large quantities of chemicals used in the production of methamphetamine, such as anhydrous ammonia and pseudoephedrine. Specifically, a Texas resident may not possess more than 300 tablets containing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, lithium metal removed from a battery and immersed in mineral spirits or kerosene, or three of the following five categories of substances used in the production of methamphetamine: lithium, sulfuric acid, organic solvents, petroleum distillates and salt. The possession of precursor materials for the production of methamphetamine carries a punishment of imprisonment of between two and 20 years.


Okay okay, 75 day supply max on hand. While I am ensuring that I am legal, I do have salt in the kitchen, but I guess I am good on that other stuff. I'll double check my garage. It really sounds like they want to be able to arrest anyone with a cell phone and a car. Jeeze...!

Anything else...??

HamataBound
March 4th, 2012, 12:02 PM
My first thought is why would a divemaster ever recommend they dive on decongestants...I have to say I was a little worried that it took this long for someone to bring that up.:shocked2::shocked2::shocked2:

DandyDon
March 4th, 2012, 01:46 PM
I have to say I was a little worried that it took this long for someone to bring that up.:shocked2::shocked2::shocked2:
Some of us can't imagine diving without them, but we make sure they don't quit while on the dive.

Ayisha
March 4th, 2012, 02:59 PM
My first thought is why would a divemaster ever recommend they dive on decongestants...


I have to say I was a little worried that it took this long for someone to bring that up.:shocked2::shocked2::shocked2:

That quote from Shasta_man was from the next day after the OP. It is now almost one month later...

FPDocMatt
March 4th, 2012, 07:00 PM
If there's one thing true about drug users, it's that they lie. And convincingly.

Even if she's completely innocent, there are so many circumstantial factors here that I can't fault the DA for prosecuting her.

And she should never have signed a statement admitting to crimes she did not commit.

It's interesting that, as a society, we consider grandmothers to be innocent by definition. I can understand where this comes from, but as a grandfather I have to say that a grandparent isn't really that old.

Let's see, where did I put my Sudafed?

cruiser
March 5th, 2012, 10:58 AM
Granny's story starting slipping when they found the methodone bottle and lost all credibility when the drug paraphernalia was found.

Kingpatzer
March 5th, 2012, 12:26 PM
laws reducing local production haven't really stopped meth. THey have pushed it from the home manufacture to the organized crime world however.

There's a reason Mexico imports more sudafed per person than any other nation. And there's a reason meth is coming over the boarders every day.

The problem I have with this story is the problem I have with all of our drug laws.

Even presuming the woman and her son are addicts, they were definitely at the level of individual use. To me, the individual users are victims of drug abuse, and if they're addicted (and if they used meth, they are -- its' amazingly fast at addicting people) then they are suffering from a clinical disease.

The problem is that if allowing this substance into the general population is so bad (and listening to the public health people speak, it is) then by all means make it a prescription only substance, or better yet, outlaw it's import and manufacture. But we aren't doing that. We're still allowing over the counter sales, and we have ludicrous state-by-state laws on a pharmaceutical product. That's asinine!!

At the federal level make it a prescription-only medicine, as a schedule 1 controlled substance, just like methamphetamine itself is, or better yet disallow it's manufacture by any corporation registered in the USA. Work with the rest of the world's governments to get the production stopped. Levy economic sanctions against Mexico until their import numbers of pseudophedrine approach levels consistent with normal individual use of the product for it's intended purposes.

Stop hounding victims on the premise that somehow that will stop the people who are really profiting from meth -- which are the drug companies and the gangs.

DandyDon
March 5th, 2012, 12:41 PM
...or better yet disallow it's manufacture by any corporation registered in the USA.
Hey! :mad: You're talking about the best hay fever med available. That stuff they put in Sudafed boxes now is a joke. It's already difficult to find in many places. Of the three chain drugstores in Plainview, one was out and didn't know when, one had to special order out of Lubbock, and one had a limited choice.

Kingpatzer
March 5th, 2012, 12:47 PM
DandyDon - Pfizer has a product that has been ready to go to the FDC for years -- a mirror image molecule that can not be turned into crystal meth but which has the same bio-chemical efficacy as pseudophedrine. They haven't pursued it because the don't need to -- they're making plenty of money off of the mexican cartels buying up every ounce of pseudophedrine they can manufacture.

mathauck0814
March 5th, 2012, 01:14 PM
Don, is it a principled argument not to just go and get a prescription and be permitted to have the supply you need? Having lived in some pretty remote spots, I can sympathize with your situation, but it seems like you could alleviate yourself of the problem with a doctor's visit, no?

DandyDon
March 5th, 2012, 03:15 PM
Don, is it a principled argument not to just go and get a prescription and be permitted to have the supply you need? Having lived in some pretty remote spots, I can sympathize with your situation, but it seems like you could alleviate yourself of the problem with a doctor's visit, no?
Next on my list, altho I never got a clear word from pharmacists as to whether that would help or not. For now, I'm fine. I got organized in my legal purchasing and stockpiling to the point that when I found that there is also a maximum allowed on hand, I counted and stopped just short. :cool:

I kinda miss the old days when I could get a 100 ct bottle, then replace it easily as needed, but I guess the drug makers do more so.

manni-yunk
April 7th, 2012, 07:01 PM
DandyDon - Pfizer has a product that has been ready to go to the FDC for years -- a mirror image molecule that can not be turned into crystal meth but which has the same bio-chemical efficacy as pseudophedrine. They haven't pursued it because the don't need to -- they're making plenty of money off of the mexican cartels buying up every ounce of pseudophedrine they can manufacture.


What is the FDC??? And Pfizer doesnt make sudafed anymore...they sold it to J and J 6 years ago so if they have something on the bench, but are sitting on it due to mexican cartel sales, someone in their marketing department needs to be canned............because J and J makes the sudafed money now!!!!!

irishsquid
April 7th, 2012, 07:52 PM
If the Feds/States keep it up, they'll be pushing the creation of new types of illegal drug manufacturing. Folks will be purchasing meth to mfg. decongestants. ;)

Indian Valley Scuba
April 7th, 2012, 08:30 PM
It's always a good idea to take the crack paraphenalia out from under the seat of the car before crossing state lines to buy drugs!

MX727
April 9th, 2012, 10:50 AM
It's interesting that, as a society, we consider grandmothers to be innocent by definition. I can understand where this comes from, but as a grandfather I have to say that a grandparent isn't really that old.


Excellent point. She was 45 at the time, not exactly the Mrs. Claus image that most of us probably form when we hear "grandmother."


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