Don't let what happened to me happen to you. I was finishing up my Open Water certification with Deep Blue dive shop in Cozumel MX. I was on my "check out" dive in pretty deep water (Palancar Reef) and was having trouble equalizing my ears. I was the only student with my instructor but he was also guiding 2 more experienced divers. I signalled to my instructor that I could not equalize my ears. Rather than have me ascend a bit to try then or even return to the surface to discuss, the instructor kept us going to the bottom (78 ft.) pacing the dive to the more experienced divers. I was in serious pain and kept signalling that my ears were not well. When we finally surfaced after the dive I coughed up some serious blood and my head was pounding. He seemed uninterested and said it was "normal". Bleeding is not "normal" in ANY adventure sport. Unless, ofcourse, something goes terribly wrong. Regardless, after an hour he had me do another dive (60 ft.) so I could get certified. Same thing happened again. That was two weeks ago. I couldn't dive the remainder of the trip, because my ears hurt so bad and couldn't "POP" them. Deep Blue dive staff and management offered no apologies or any words of regret. They wanted me to just book more dive trips, period. I went to the DAN clinic in CZM and the ear specialist said I had suffered Barotrauma (http://www.drugs.com/cg/barotrauma.html).
My Ears are finally showing signs of improvement and I should have no permanent damage. I did however lose 3 days of diving that I'll never get back. There's two points to take away from this.
One: read/learn about equalizing your ears well and practice sound diving procedures regarding this.
Two: Beware of sketchy, profit motivated racketeers such as Deep Blue. Do your research and choose amoung well established more ethical professionals.
Your ears should NOT hurt while diving and you definitly should NOT be coughing up blood upon surfacing.
You can click the link below to go directly to Deep Blue's response located further in this thread:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cozumel/410336-new-divers-beware-sketchy-dive-shop-cozumel-puts-profits-over-safety-9.html#post6214426
Jxh2297
February 7th, 2012, 03:57 PM
I would have said screw the instructor and go to the surface, then once on the surface you could explain the problem
MMM
February 7th, 2012, 04:13 PM
Have you complained to the licensing agency? (I'm assuming it's PADI.)
WSOPFAN
February 7th, 2012, 04:16 PM
Sorry to hear that happened. I would find out his affiliation and officially report him. Also email the shop and tell them you are filing the report and give them a piece of your mind.
DevonDiver
February 7th, 2012, 04:32 PM
One: read/learn about equalizing your ears well
Which you would have just done on your Open Water theory?
and practice sound diving procedures regarding this.
Which you would have just practised in your Confined Water training?
Begs the question.... if you were in pain, why didn't you apply the training/knowledge you (should) have recently been supplied with?
Are you alleging that the instructor refused to allow you to ascend? Or physically prevented you ascending? He, without doubt of your misunderstanding, actually told you to stop ascending and join him immediately at a deeper depth?
Or are you saying that the instructor may have failed to understand your communication... or didn't lead you by the hand into a resolution (that'd you'd otherwise be expected to perform by yourself)?
Did your instructor remain below you, waiting for you to sort out your problem, before re-joining him? What distance separated you?
By signalling your problem ("I have a problem - my ears - I will go up and resolve") he might opt to join you... or he might wait for you. As long as he didn't ignore you and actually swim off/continue descent beyond a reasonable distance. Or is that what you are alleging?
Two: Beware of sketchy, profit motivated racketeers such as Deep Blue.
I've never heard of a non-profit dive centre.
What makes you say they were sketchy or racketeers? In comparison to what other diver centres/scuba training courses/agency standards you have experience of?
Do your research and choose amoung well established more ethical professionals.
Whilst you haven't furnished much/any accurate information from which to draw a judgement, all I can say from reading your account is that you failed to apply the training and knowledge that you'd been provided with. Having failed to apply that knowledge, you're blaming the instructor for a self-inflicted injury.
It does seem that the instructor was partially distracted by the accompanying divers. I'd need to hear his/her account of that - because he/she may have had other issues to deal with (such as keeping a group together). That meant he/she wasn't able to spoon-feed you with a resolution to a problem that, again, they'd expect you to deal with on an open-water dive.
Out of interest, which course dive was this? It sounds like dive 3/4? On the OW dives, you're expected to demonstrate and apply the skills you've been taught. You didn't.
Your ears should NOT hurt while diving
Correct. You identified the problem and the solution (ascend and re-equalise before descending again), but you didn't apply it.
and you definitly should NOT be coughing up blood upon surfacing.
It's not dramatically uncommon for new divers to experience some slight discharge of blood from their noses. This comes from the nasal sinuses and is typically due to excessive and/or over-zealous equalisation attempts. This also typically stops as divers become more familiar with the performance of the valsalva manoeuvre and their sinuses become more accustomed to pressure differentials and equalisation.
As an instructor myself, I've experienced students that had the problem. I don't make a fuss about it either... because I don't want them to worry about something that they don't need to worry about. There's nothing worse than panicking a diver unnecessarily.
Note that those issues were asked as questions in the 'Diving Medical' forum, rather than as un-informed accusations in a regional forum. :)
Karibelle
February 7th, 2012, 04:42 PM
Andy, any comment on "78 feet"? I also interpreted this as OW dives 3 and 4, and if that's the depth that he went to, then the OP does have a valid complaint.
kari
Texas Torpedo
February 7th, 2012, 04:51 PM
Not to mention the Instructor's responsibility should have been to his student.. I'm not an instructor and don't know all the standards but on the many occasions where we had students on a trip with us in Cozumel, they had a instructor dedicated to them while the rest of the group had its own dive master.. Maybe that isn't a standards requirement (??) but the Ops I dove with never had a student mixed in with a normal dive group, and never were they brought along on the group's profile.
Bvana1, could you expand on the training you received prior to doing the open water dives? Was it with the same instructor, dive shop, etc? Did you do a e-learning program, referral, or classroom with Deep Blue?
DevonDiver
February 7th, 2012, 04:54 PM
Andy, any comment on "78 feet"? I also interpreted this as OW dives 3 and 4, and if that's the depth that he went to, then the OP does have a valid complaint.
Didn't leap out at me, because I don't think in 'imperial'... but yes, of course, that'd be a breach of standards (max permissible depth - 60') on the OW course..if that was the depth planned/reached during the dive.
Again, question begs... if that was the planned depth (student responsible for planning the dives), then why wasn't the issue raised before getting into the water.
Still... completely unrelated to the 'barotrama' issues. Unless the OP is alleging that he was still descending (shallow) and the instructor was at 78'?!?
Not to mention the Instructor's responsibility should have been to his student..
I don't believe there is a prohibition on non-students being on the same dive/same group as a student. In the UK non-students are often used as 'safety divers' to support the instructor (not the student) in order to satisfy EU regulations. Basically, tagging along for the dive, so that the instructor 'has a buddy'.
Of course, the instructor has a duty-of-care to the student and that should always be their primary focus. However, it can also be argued that the student has an equal duty-of-care to apply the training/knowledge which they have been supplied - especially in the later stages (OW dives) of the course.
If the student had been in an uncontrolled descent, then the instructor should intervene, to prevent injury. If the student is in control, but chooses to ignore ear pain and force a descent, then the student isn't reasonably applying training. The instructor couldn't assume that an in-control student would voluntarily choose to descend in the knowledge that they will surely injure themselves.
A liability issue would be present if the OP is alleging that he hadn't been taught the need to equalise, or how to equalise, before the dive. However, once the student reaches the OW components of the course, having ascertained 'mastery' of the skill and knowledge at a prior stage, the instructor is primarily assessing the student in their correct application and continued 'mastery' of the skills.
I'm not saying this is what happened... but here's a 'possible' scenario from the instructors' perspective:
On descent, the instructor sees the student give an "I have a problem" sign.. then indicates their ears. That student is in control and has arrested their descent. The student then signals "up". The instructor acknowledges that this is the correct course of action - as previously taught, the student is aware that the correct procedure is to ascend slightly and re-perform the equalisation. The instructor waits at their current depth for the student to perform this and join them. After a brief pause, the student continues their descent and joins the instructor. The dive continues...
Thalassamania
February 7th, 2012, 04:56 PM
Which you would have just done on your Open Water theory?
Which you would have just practised in your Confined Water training?
Begs the question.... if you were in pain, why didn't you apply the training/knowledge you (should) have recently been supplied with?
Are you alleging that the instructor refused to allow you to ascend? Or physically prevented you ascending? He, without doubt of your misunderstanding, actually told you to stop ascending and join him immediately at a deeper depth?
Or are you saying that the instructor may have failed to understand your communication... or didn't lead you by the hand into a resolution (that'd you'd otherwise be expected to perform by yourself)?
Did your instructor remain below you, waiting for you to sort out your problem, before re-joining him? What distance separated you?
By signalling your problem ("I have a problem - my ears - I will go up and resolve") he might opt to join you... or he might wait for you. As long as he didn't ignore you and actually swim off/continue descent beyond a reasonable distance. Or is that what you are alleging?
Agreed, though I feel the instructor should have stayed close enough to the student to be able to intervene on the student's behalf in an emergency.
I've never heard of a non-profit dive centre.
Most all college and university programs?
What makes you say they were sketchy or racketeers? In comparison to what other diver centres/scuba training courses/agency standards you have experience of?
Whilst you haven't furnished much/any accurate information from which to draw a judgement, all I can say from reading your account is that you failed to apply the training and knowledge that you'd been provided with. Having failed to apply that knowledge, you're blaming the instructor for a self-inflicted injury.
It does seem that the instructor was partially distracted by the accompanying divers. I'd need to hear his/her account of that - because he/she may have had other issues to deal with (such as keeping a group together). That meant he/she wasn't able to spoon-feed you with a resolution to a problem that, again, they'd expect you to deal with on an open-water dive.
I think that the instructors first responsibility and duty should be to keep an as yet uncertified diver from harm.
Out of interest, which course dive was this? It sounds like dive 3/4? On the OW dives, you're expected to demonstrate and apply the skills you've been taught. You didn't.
Correct. You identified the problem and the solution (ascend and re-equalise before descending again), but you didn't apply it.
It's not dramatically uncommon for new divers to experience some slight discharge of blood from their noses. This comes from the nasal sinuses and is typically due to excessive and/or over-zealous equalisation attempts. This also typically stops as divers become more familiar with the performance of the valsalva manoeuvre and their sinuses become more accustomed to pressure differentials and equalisation.
As an instructor myself, I've experienced students that had the problem. I don't make a fuss about it either... because I don't want them to worry about something that they don't need to worry about. There's nothing worse than panicking a diver unnecessarily.
Note that those issues were asked as questions in the 'Diving Medical' forum, rather than as un-informed accusations in a regional forum. :)
It is not unusual for students, especially those in resort training situations (if you and other instructors who teach in such situations are to believed) to fail to apply what they have "learned." That's why the instructor is supposed to be there with them. Then there is, of course, the issue of: "if they have not learned, have you actually taught?"
Ron Lee
February 7th, 2012, 05:09 PM
There is also reality that students may have implicit trust in the instructor and may not have the "courage" (for lack of the right word) to take charge and do what is right.
I have enough experience that I would ascend alone if need be and do it safely. I can listen for boats should I need to get close to the surface.
I can also rejoin the group alone safely.
The poster does not have the skill set to be expected to do any of those alone especially with an instructor whose primary purpose is the training/checkout of that ONE person.
Thalassamania
February 7th, 2012, 05:11 PM
Students should not be placed in the dilemma of doing what is right (going up or surfacing alone) vs. doing what is right (staying with their buddy).
robint
February 7th, 2012, 05:16 PM
The big problem I see here is that the Instructor was not instructing, he was acting as a dive guide. Instructors cannot do both, particularly in drift diving locations like Cozumel.
Don't expect PADI to do anything about it. It is a he said, he said argument. I have seen instructors do much much worse things who didn't even get notified by PADI that a complaint was filed against them.
The Dive Op was at fault here, IMHO. The instructor should have been with his student 100%, and a DM should have been with the other divers. If that had happened, the student would have gone up to surface with his buddy, the instructor, and resolved the issue.
Karibelle
February 7th, 2012, 05:25 PM
Don't expect PADI to do anything about it. It is a he said, he said argument. I have seen instructors do much much worse things who didn't even get notified by PADI that a complaint was filed against them.
While that may be true, the instructor certainly won't be notified by PADI (or whoever his training agency is) if nothing is said. Complaining on the internet is not an effective way to get anything changed.
All my students leave my class with my business card and the telephone number at PADI and an invitation to call them (PADI) if they have any concerns about their training.
travelpro
February 7th, 2012, 05:38 PM
The guy was doing is OW course. Sounds like poor instruction rather than putting all the responsibility on the student.
If it were me, I would not have done the dive in this case if instruction was not the objective ...like the instructor also being a DM for other divers.
And if it were me, and speaking from experience, if I could not equalize and the DM (or instructor in this case) continued to signal me to descend as he descended after my proper signaling multiple times of my issue, Id give him the double middle finger signal for ignoring my issue then the double thumbs up and surface.
DevonDiver
February 7th, 2012, 05:41 PM
The big problem I see here is that the Instructor was not instructing, he was acting as a dive guide.
What instruction happens on Open Water dives?
Student plans and conducts dives, under supervision. Having previously demonstrated mastery of skills, the student is asked to replicate/repeat those skills on the dives.
Instructor provides supervision, in line with his duty-of-care. Instructor/DM has similar duty-of-care as a supervisor of qualified divers.
The only real issue here is one of buddy separation. Assuming that the instructor was the student's nominated buddy. In which case, we have to question whether effective buddy procedures (most importantly distancing) were applied. Given that we don't know the distancing, or actual movements of the divers, then all else is speculative, based on a very emotionally charged, negatively motivated and relatively inaccurate report.
Ron Lee
February 7th, 2012, 05:48 PM
Geez, instruction or skill set checkout? Yes there is a difference but if the events are as stated by the poster, seems the instructor did not do what was required.
I am not an instructor but if the stated events are factual....it was not acceptable in my opinion.
jerk85
February 7th, 2012, 05:51 PM
...based on a very emotionally charged, negatively motivated and relatively inaccurate report.
How would any of us know if his report was inaccurate?
robint
February 7th, 2012, 05:53 PM
What instruction happens on Open Water dives?
Student plans and conducts dives, under supervision. Having previously demonstrated mastery of skills, the student is asked to replicate/repeat those skills on the dives.
Instructor provides supervision, in line with his duty-of-care. Instructor/DM has similar duty-of-care as a supervisor of qualified divers.
The only real issue here is one of buddy separation. Assuming that the instructor was the student's nominated buddy. In which case, we have to question whether effective buddy procedures (most importantly distancing) were applied. Given that we don't know the distancing, or actual movements of the divers, then all else is speculative, based on a very emotionally charged, negatively motivated and relatively inaccurate report.
Until the certification is complete, the instructor is supposed to be instructing, the student is still a student and does not plan a dive. PADI instructors are not supposed to leave a student in the water, for any reason, until the certification course is done.
My husband is an active instructor here locally. If one student has ear problems (or any other problem) on decent, then ALL students must get back out of the water and wait while he gets that one student out of the water and safely on shore before he returns. Then ALL the remaining students go back down in the water. It sucks, especially if it is cold, but it is the rule. The only exception is if he has an AI or DM working with him who can escort the student out of the water, then the instructor can watch stay with the group in the water.
Do all instructors follow this rule all the time?? I am sure not. But it is the standard.
robin
Jim Lapenta
February 7th, 2012, 05:56 PM
We have no idea what the classroom training for this person was like. But based on the scenario he presents I'd have to say it sucked. Big time. Otherwise he would have known to insist on ascending and refused to follow the "instructor". I use the term loosely since a real instructor would not have taken him to that depth on OW checkout dives. If this was also his pool and classroom instructor both were at fault and IMO neither had any business in open water. The instructor doesn't seem to care about standards, the student does not seem to grasp how important it is to equalize and if unable to do so stop the descent. He also does not know that a diver can call a dive at any time and no excuse is required.
If the poster does not have the skill set as noted in Ron Lee's post to ascend alone when the instructor disregards the not able to equalize sign he has no business doing checkout dives. I have had on more than a few occaisions a student tell me he or she could not equalize as we were descending and at that point everything stops. No discussion, it stops. We ascend a few feet and try again slower. If they still cannot equalize the dive is over and that student is escorted out of the water and safely to shore or the boat. Anything else is completely unacceptable and dangerous. I have seen other instructors watch as a student gets almost to shore, then turn and descend to join the rest of their group. At that point on two occasions the student for some unknown reason decided to try and go back down on their own. Both times I was able to stop them and see they got out of the water. I then went and told their instructor.
Even more evidence that the OP is not ready to hold a c- card is that the instructor supposedly made him do a second dive. BULL CRAP! Unless he had a gun on him there was no excuse for him choosing to do the next dive. That shows very poor judgment and until that is rectified by more classroom and pool training the OP should stay out of the water.
Of course it was Cozumel where this happened. Could have been anywhere. But based on the reputation the area has why anyone would choose to do OW training there and most especially referral dives is nuts. They are known for not following the rules, recommendations, or standards. The fact that they send lots of money to certain agencies seems to insure that the agency will take no disciplinary action, will not publicly scold the shop or instructor to at least give the impression that they care about these violations, and do not advise their general membership to warn students about the propensity for some Cozumel ops to do whatever they please. A perfect opportunity to show some guts was lost when they did not come out with a public statement condemning the practices of some "professionals" that killed one and crippled another.
I train my students to research and know where they are going and what to do if someone does something they are not ok with. Including myself. I have little tests I will use with students on OW checkouts where I expect them to tell me no and, if necessary, give me a one finger salute coupled with no! I openly advise new OW students to not go to Cozumel. We do not have any real opportunity for drift diving locally so before they decide to do it I advise them to get some experience in a more benign drift setting and work up to Cozumel or to get 20 or 30 dives in and really have their skills nailed before going there. I also tell them to not trust the DM's or guides with their safety. Even on checkout dives the student, unless they know the instructor really well and the standards really well, to take responsibility for themselves. It is not hard to do. You just have to address it and reinforce it in training early and often.
I will thank the OP for giving me another example to use. As to student mistakes, instructor mistakes, and why Cozumel is not an ideal place for a new diver.
Thalassamania
February 7th, 2012, 06:03 PM
What instruction happens on Open Water dives?
Student plans and conducts dives, under supervision. Having previously demonstrated mastery of skills, the student is asked to replicate/repeat those skills on the dives.
Instructor provides supervision, in line with his duty-of-care. Instructor/DM has similar duty-of-care as a supervisor of qualified divers.
The only real issue here is one of buddy separation. Assuming that the instructor was the student's nominated buddy. In which case, we have to question whether effective buddy procedures (most importantly distancing) were applied. Given that we don't know the distancing, or actual movements of the divers, then all else is speculative, based on a very emotionally charged, negatively motivated and relatively inaccurate report.The instructor appears to have violated his duty-of-care with respect to the student. I would argue that while the Instructor/DM has similar duty-of-care as a supervisor of qualified divers, his or her first and foremost duty-of-care must go to the student. It appears that the instructor was the student's "nominated" buddy (now there's a term of art that I've not seen before) so that also an issue. This incident demands a complaint to PADI.
SailawayKC
February 7th, 2012, 06:14 PM
As a new diver I will relate what happened to me on my 3rd dive after my check out dives. I was diving the Kittiwake and the DM was going over the dive plan and talking about going into the wreck which I didn't want to do. We were also diving to 68 feet which was 28 feet deeper than I had gone before. I really wanted to do this dive and I said nothing. Going down I had trouble with my ears and it took a long time for them to equalize. The DM did come back up to me and try to help me get down. I did make it down and was doing Ok. When it was time to penetrate the wreck I was feeling really uncomfortable about going in so I had a choice to make. Either continue or bail and dive the outside of the wreck by myself. Since my buddy was just a random diver from the boat I didn't want to spoil his dive. I decide to dive the outside and keep a close eye on my air supply. I did stick my head in a few of the opening but nothing where I was going to get stuck. I enjoyed the rest of my dive and surfaced early as I was down to 500 psi. I felt good about my decision but I know I should have spoke up on the dive boat before the dive.
The next day I had to make a harder decision if I should scrub my two Cozumel dives, which I did. My sinuses were not clear and I thought I wouldn't be able to equalize. I realized later it was the right decision.
By point of sharing is for new divers reading that you dive and learn from your experiences. I've also learned a lot from reading scubaboard.
Back to the OP if he was coughing up blood I would think the instructor would not think that was normal. I hope he explained the pain and what happened to him on the dive to the instructor so they both could understand what went wrong before the second dive.
The good news is I'm going back to Cozumel on a dive trip in two weeks and can't wait to go diving.
gmanstan
February 7th, 2012, 06:20 PM
Students should not be placed in the dilemma of doing what is right (going up or surfacing alone) vs. doing what is right (staying with their buddy).
I dont believe there should have been any dilemma of what was the right thing to do. Your safety or physical well being out weighs the need to be with your buddy. If you signal a problem OOA, cant equalize ,whatever the problem , it is your responsibility to do what it takes to guarantee your safety.Not to rely on your buddy to understand hand signals ,or wait for him to "save you".
iluvcozumel
February 7th, 2012, 06:25 PM
Reading Jim Lapenta's post takes me back to when I did my open water referral.....
The instructor (who by the way was a NAUI instructor) signed the blank page for my 5th training dive and sent me on a boat to do a drift dive with a group of 8 and 1 DM. My buddy and I were both doing our 5th training dive, sans an Instructor at Palancar...... We go to 89'. I was so uncomfortable, really did not enjoy the dive, had a lot of problems that I had to work out on my own, then my buddy had a run away ascent, for which I panicked and followed her to the surface.....just plain bad bad bad. Anyway, by the end of the week I was at the chamber doing a table 5 recompression ride. I am now a DM in training working my way to being an instructor and I will definitely tell my students what Jim Lapenta posted above "
based on the reputation the area has why anyone would choose to do OW
training there and most especially referral dives is nuts. They are known for not following the rules, recommendations, or standards" unless I am there with them to guide them through the process. My current trainer is amazed at my stories about that week in Coz. I know that I am now a better diver for the experience, however, it was not safe and the outcome could have been undesirable. Coz is no place to do an OW checkout dive, unless, and I mean unless you have a qualified and attentive dive instructor teaching you. BTW, I am doing the NAUI teaching track and am appalled at the way I was taught both my Open Water class and the way the referral class went. But, I didn't know any better and my LDS at the time was no help. They are no longer around....
Thalassamania
February 7th, 2012, 06:27 PM
I dont believe there should have been any dilemma of what was the right thing to do. Your safety or physical well being out weighs the need to be with your buddy. If you signal a problem OOA, cant equalize ,whatever the problem , it is your responsibility to do what it takes to guarantee your safety.Not to rely on your buddy to understand hand signals ,or wait for him to "save you".An Instructor supervising a student taking a class is not just, "a buddy."
robint
February 7th, 2012, 06:38 PM
Not all instructors on Cozumel are bad. My husband, daughter (age 12 at the time), and I did our OW referrals there. Our instructor (Margaret at PapaHogs) was fantastic, followed the rules to the letter, and gave us the joy of diving. I would recommend her to anyone, especially young divers. She was great with our daughter who had a bit of fear on Dive 3 and wanted to go back up on the boat. The DM took her up. My husband and I finished dives 3 & 4 without her. She was told that only when she was ready would she be allowed back in the water. The next day the 3 of us went snorkeling... 20 minutes floating on top of the water and she turned to us and said "snorkeling sucks, I wanna be down there!". The next day we took her back to PapaHogs and she finished. She is 23 now, and a fabulous diver to this day.
robin
ggunn
February 7th, 2012, 06:43 PM
At the risk of being accused of defending Deep Blue (I'm not - I wasn't there and I don't know the op or anyone associated with it), I urge caution against skewering a business in a public forum on the basis of an unsubstantiated posting. There are at least two sides to every story, and it is hard for me to believe that an op (any op) would try to talk a diver into going on more dives who was coughing up blood and/or suffering from obvious barotrauma.
Jim Lapenta
February 7th, 2012, 06:57 PM
I agree with that. But if they did they should not only be outed but hoisted by their petards and left flying in the breeze that is the internet for all to see. The operation should be contacted and given a chance to post their side.
And it may not have been the operation but just the person posing as an instructor (yes I said posing for obvious reasons). If that were the case then the operation should get rid of that instructor. But I'm betting that this is not the only one who takes new divers deeper than 60 feet. Because when they do NOTHING HAPPENS TO THEM! In this case it should also have not allowed the student on the boat without better verifying their skills and knowledge.
I hope a mod will send a PM to Deep Blue and make them aware of this thread. John?
mselenaous
February 7th, 2012, 07:15 PM
Don't let what happened to me happen to you. I was finishing up my Open Water certification with Deep Blue dive shop in Cozumel MX. I was on my "check out" dive in pretty deep water (Palancar Reef) and was having trouble equalizing my ears. I was the only student with my instructor but he was also guiding 2 more experienced divers. I signalled to my instructor that I could not equalize my ears. Rather than have me ascend a bit to try then or even return to the surface to discuss, the instructor kept us going to the bottom (78 ft.) pacing the dive to the more experienced divers. I was in serious pain and kept signalling that my ears were not well. When we finally surfaced after the dive I coughed up some serious blood and my head was pounding. He seemed uninterested and said it was "normal". Bleeding is not "normal" in ANY adventure sport. Unless, ofcourse, something goes terribly wrong. Regardless, after an hour he had me do another dive (60 ft.) so I could get certified. Same thing happened again. That was two weeks ago. I couldn't dive the remainder of the trip, because my ears hurt so bad and couldn't "POP" them. Deep Blue dive staff and management offered no apologies or any words of regret. They wanted me to just book more dive trips, period. I went to the DAN clinic in CZM and the ear specialist said I had suffered Barotrauma (http://www.drugs.com/cg/barotrauma.html).
My Ears are finally showing signs of improvement and I should have no permanent damage. I did however lose 3 days of diving that I'll never get back. There's two points to take away from this.
One: read/learn about equalizing your ears well and practice sound diving procedures regarding this.
Two: Beware of sketchy, profit motivated racketeers such as Deep Blue. Do your research and choose amoung well established more ethical professionals.
Your ears should NOT hurt while diving and you definitly should NOT be coughing up blood upon surfacing.
Not to cast blame on the student nor the instructor, but as a student doing up front research you would have been directed to the following informative links. I am posting these so that any potential diver who finds this will learn that responsibility is a two-way street, so think and breath before you act, and choose wisely.:
I think there's another lesson to be learned from this. Quite simply, take responsibility for your own actions, and don't do things contrary to your better judgement.
Having said that, I had a similar problem aeons ago, doing my first dive at a Club Med intro to diving class. I suffered thru it too. Now, I adhere to the lesson just cited.
Thalassamania
February 7th, 2012, 07:44 PM
If students were ready to take responsibility for their own actions, and/or had developed the judgement that they should not do things contrary to, then they'd not be students and they'd not be diving with Instructors (e.g., people supposedly specially trained and tested concerning their ability to take responsibility for the safety or people who are in the process of developing their better judgement). No?
bvana1
February 7th, 2012, 07:45 PM
Have you complained to the licensing agency? (I'm assuming it's PADI.)
yes I did
Texas Torpedo
February 7th, 2012, 07:47 PM
At the risk of being accused of defending Deep Blue (I'm not - I wasn't there and I don't know the op or anyone associated with it), I urge caution against skewering a business in a public forum on the basis of an unsubstantiated posting. There are at least two sides to every story, and it is hard for me to believe that an op (any op) would try to talk a diver into going on more dives who was coughing up blood and/or suffering from obvious barotrauma.
They've been invited to the thread.
Thalassamania
February 7th, 2012, 07:49 PM
yes I did
good
They've been invited to the thread.
good
Jackie
February 7th, 2012, 07:49 PM
Guess what ? The certified divers do not need an instructor to babysit them on a reef. They should have been left to do their dive and all the attention of the instructor should have been on his student.
the student may have been concerned about surfacing alone and rightfully so, especiallyin a drift situation.
so the world a favor and make a formal caomplaint to PADI.
Texas Torpedo
February 7th, 2012, 07:52 PM
Guess what ? The certified divers do not need an instructor to babysit them on a reef. They should have been left to do their dive and all the attention of the instructor should have been on his student.
I'm not trying to nit-pick and I agree with you, however in Cozumel, if diving inside the marine park, a marine park approved dive master is required to be with the divers on the charter, no matter their certification level.
Texas Torpedo
February 7th, 2012, 07:53 PM
yes I did
Would you mind responding to some of the questions posted in this thread, especially the ones that relate to the training you received prior to the two dives you outlined in your first post?
MMM
February 7th, 2012, 08:03 PM
yes I did
Have you heard back from them yet?
Kilili
February 7th, 2012, 08:29 PM
If students were ready to take responsibility for their own actions, and/or had developed the judgement that they should not do things contrary to, then they'd not be students and they'd not be diving with Instructors (e.g., people supposedly specially trained and tested concerning their ability to take responsibility for the safety or people who are in the process of developing their better judgement). No?
Well, the advantage of not taking responsibility for your own life, is that you can always find someone or something to blame for what happened to you. However, doing so makes you a victim, and, as such, robs you of the power to do something about it.
If you feel better living this kind of life, so be it. Certainly many people do. Blame the instructor, blame the other person, blame the weather, just blame anything other than yourself.
Taking responsibility is a way of living, to take control of your own life. A student takes [or should take] responsibility for signing up for a class, selecting an instructor, staying with one whose actions are not in their best interest, diving with people who act in a similar fashion, pushing beyond your area of expertise. Being able to say "but I wasn't responsible" brings little comfort if you are dead as a result of it.
Thalassamania
February 7th, 2012, 08:44 PM
Well, the advantage of not taking responsibility for your own life, is that you can always find someone or something to blame for what happened to you. However, doing so makes you a victim, and, as such, robs you of the power to do something about it.
No, not at all. The point is that the instructor has a duty and did not meet it, that's all. If you have trouble with the concept of duty, you should go live as a hermit for you're not fit for civilized societies.
If you feel better living this kind of life, so be it. Certainly many people do. Blame the instructor, blame the other person, blame the weather, just blame anything other than yourself.
When someone has a duty and does not meet that duty then they should be called on it. It is not a matter of "blaming someone else" it is a matter of identifying that someone did not conduct themselves in an appropriate fashion.
Taking responsibility is a way of living, to take control of your own life. A student takes [or should take] responsibility for signing up for a class, selecting an instructor, staying with one whose actions are not in their best interest, diving with people who act in a similar fashion, pushing beyond your area of expertise. Being able to say "but I wasn't responsible" brings little comfort if you are dead as a result of it.Every day you do things that are out of your control in which other people have a duty to prevent your coming to harm, this is true of walking down the street next to moving traffic, being in a house, eating in a restaurant, riding in any sort of a vehicle, the list is almost endless.
ggunn
February 7th, 2012, 08:47 PM
I agree with that. But if they did... Aye, and there's the rub, isn't it? A pattern that has emerged in here of late is that someone posts something negative about something a dive op has done, and immediately folks open fire and start blasting away with absolutely no firsthand knowledge of what did or did not happen. When the OP has no prior track record on this forum, I take it with a very large grain of salt.
bvana1
February 7th, 2012, 08:55 PM
Thanks for all the feedback, most of it was helpful and the rest was interesting. I'll try to answer all your questions with one post. Apparently, this was dive 3 of 4. I did the E-learning and yes, I should've applied what I learned in the class. I'm happy to take my fair share of responsibility/blame for this incident. If I knew then what I know now, it would not have happened that way, so I'm playing the ignorance card. We did NO dive planning whatsoever thoughout the entire course. Never even looked at dive tables or the RDP, only experience was in the E-learning. The "confined water" dives were in very shallow water in front of Papa Hogs and until then I had not experienced any equalization problems. There was no "pre-dive discussion" whatsoever. I had NO IDEA what to expect or what the dive environment was going to be. As far as any "accuracy issues"- my dive computer showed a max depth of 78 ft. I was the only student in his class and until then was very happy with Deep Blue. There were no other students on the boat that day. As for "not for profit dive centers" I was conveying the idea that the instructor seemed more interested in providing an interruption free dive (nice tips) for the other divers in our group. Until a student is certified doesn't his safety take number 1 priority? He's still in training isn't he?
I feel that when I continued to signal my ears are not equalizing, him and I should have ascended to the surface, discussed my training and tried again with some reinforcement. The instructor just continued to signal "equalize" by holding his nose. So we continued to descend. Was I really supposed to surface by myself? Not having dived ever before I had no other experience to draw upon such as what is acceptable pain and when there is a problem. If this thread helps just one diver avoid making the same mistakes, it was worth it. There's a lot of good info posted, thanks.
ggunn
February 7th, 2012, 09:04 PM
... that's the way it happened so SCREW YOU.
Charming.
Ron Lee
February 7th, 2012, 09:05 PM
I feel that when I continued to signal my ears are not equalizing, him and I should have ascended to the surface, discussed my training and tried again with some reinforcement. The instructor just continued to signal "equalize" by holding his nose. So we continued to descend. Was I really supposed to surface by myself? Not having dived ever before I had no other experience to draw upon such as what is acceptable pain and when there is a problem. If this thread helps just one diver avoid making the same mistakes, it was worth it. There's a lot of good info posted, thanks.
If you look at my first post, I allude to the reality that at this point in your diving experience, you may not have the right reasoning to tell the instructor that you are going up regardless of what he is doing. It is a new experience for you and there is a risk as a student doing what I can do alone with much more experience.
Hopefully you got certified and continue to expand your exposure to different diving situations under the mentoring of competent dive buddies.
I am also a firm believer in taking the rescue course.
bvana1
February 7th, 2012, 09:11 PM
have not heard back from PADI yet. It sounds like they won't do much if anything.
bvana1
February 7th, 2012, 09:15 PM
Would you mind responding to some of the questions posted in this thread, especially the ones that relate to the training you received prior to the two dives you outlined in your first post? Yes. I think I addressed most of the questions and replys.
Texas Torpedo
February 7th, 2012, 09:30 PM
Yes. I think I addressed most of the questions and replys.
Thanks. That clears up a few more things and fits in with the pattern of behavior you outlined for dive 3 & 4.
flatfoot40
February 7th, 2012, 09:52 PM
If I recall my own dive training, I remember the instructor and the books harping on how important it was to maintain your buddy. I can easily see how an inexperienced student would assume if his instructor was his buddy, he should just follow him. I can also say if I was a student with no experience doing drift diving and watched everyone floating away as I went to the surface it would put me in a not so secure state of mind. You don't know where your boat might be when you surface and if you don't speak the language might worry about how to reconnect your group. There is a reason drift diver an Adventure course is a specialty for AOW. As for profit motives in teaching the courses, the best course I ever took was naui ow in 1989 in college. The teacher is paid by the university and the class is a semester long with lots of classroom and pool time. To me, that is the way it should still be taught.(just my worthless $.02)
bvana1
February 7th, 2012, 10:10 PM
My Ave's are playing your Hawks now. Actually, I grew up in Chi and still a fan too.
nodakdive
February 7th, 2012, 10:13 PM
I'm not writing this to discount the original poster's experience, I will say though, that I'm surprised to hear the account, and sorry to hear about the bad experience.
I've done somewhere in the neighborhood of 175 or so tanks with Deep Blue. I did my OW referral with them, my AOW, and several specialty certifications including nitrox and 5 or 6 others. (I did Rescue here in North Dakota as the visibility is really good if we get over 5 feet of it. I got my Search and Recovery card in ND too. Same reason.)
Via their assessment of my skills, I've been to every site on the lee side of the island, most of them multiple times. (Finally made it to Villa Blanca wall last trip) I consider myself a competent diver, not an advanced diver. I've been diving with Deep Blue since 2004, and have visited at least once a year, sometimes twice, since then. I've been on their boats with just about every kind of diver you can imagine, from newbies that have no business being in the water, to people claiming to be divemasters with 100's of dives that have no business being in the water. I've also been diving on their boats with really excellent divers, both newbies and old pros. I dive as much as I can, so I'm on the "advanced" boat in the mornings, but in the afternoon, it's usually a mixed group. Deep Blue is not the only shop I've been diving with in Cozumel and Playa del Carmen.
Here's what surprises me:
1. I actually pay attention to the dive briefings, even though I've heard them over and over. When there are new divers on board, it seems to be SOP to address equalization. "…if you have trouble equalizing, don't continue your descent. Ascend to the surface if you have to, but you must ascend to relieve the pressure. Once the pressure is relieved, carefully equalize and attempt to descend. Remember that the current on the surface is moving faster than it does at depth, so keep your eye on the group and adjust so that you don't drift past…" I should say that "new" means, new to the shop, not just beginning divers. Doesn't seem to matter to them if it's a boat full of visiting DM's and Instructor's and lil ole me (heh), they make a point about equalizing and the current.
2. Many, many times, I have witnessed divers having trouble descending, and I have watched the DM go to the diver and personally address the situation. Appears to be SOP. Sounds like that's not what happened in this case, and that really surprises me as I've seen it on so many occasions.
3. Every time I've been there on my birthday, I've been to the clinic. Had a shot once too. If I let the shop know I'm not feeling well, it seems the entire staff knows about, and asks how I'm doing when I get back to diving and while I'm not diving. If I've been diving a lot, I've had the DM's and even the shop suggest that I take a day and chill. From a DM… "…you've been diving a lot. It's probably a good idea to just relax for a day. Your body is working harder. You're breathing dry air. You've got nitrogen in your body. If you take a day off, it will give your body a chance to repair and it will save you from getting sick…." Etc. I've never heard any concern about getting my money. I have heard concern over my well being. Once, I apologized to Gary because I called a last minute dive. Earlier in the day, I said I'd be up for it and when he called to say the boat was going to go (norte situation), I told him that I wasn't feeling super up to it. I had kind of queasy stomach. No problem. I found out later, that, since I didn't go, the boat didn't go out. Ugh. They didn't charge me for the dives, even though they lost 4 divers worth of income. (including me) Gary said, "…not a problem Blair, if you're not feeling good, you shouldn't dive. The conditions weren't that great for diving anyhow." Sure, I'm a repeat customer now, but this is the treatment I've received long before they thought I'd be constant repeat business.
4. I consider the instruction I received to be excellent. Before I ever had OW class number one here in ND, I had read the manual and answered all the questions, twice. The first time I went to the dive shop, I walked out with around 20 Dive Training magazines, and I'd read all of those before my first OW class. I think I learned as much about diving in Deep Blue's fitting room as I'd learned in the classes I had attended and the magazines I'd read.
Again, I'm not trying to discount what the original poster said, I'm just really surprised based on my experiences with the shop.
On another surprising note, I asked an old pro my favorite question for new divers the other day. It belays my lack of training as a professional diver/instructor and simple mindedness, but I won't dive with anyone that can't answer the question. (Ok, if they can't answer, I tell 'em, but I'll ask them later and expect them to know the answer)
"What are the two most important things you never do when you're under the water scuba diving". The person couldn't answer the question. I almost fell over. Maybe the answers are too obvious. I was taught this before my first resort dive, and have never forgotten it. I've since added my own third item. That one is, Watch Your Air Gauge.
I'm with Lapenta. I think the cave diver's mantra should be taught in every dive course, from OW up. I'm also a firm believer that "Stop, Breathe, Think, Act" shouldn't show up in the Rescue course. It should be a part of every dive course, OW and up.
-Blair
Dave Dillehay
February 7th, 2012, 10:23 PM
It is my opinion,and policy of my shop that OW students be accompanied by a MSDT whose only focus is the students. On the rare occasion where we have both students and certified divers on the same boat there will be two instructors along. After 20 years of doing this I believe that should be the standard, but PADI don't listen to me.
Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers
bvana1
February 7th, 2012, 10:32 PM
A few more details about the training with Deep Blue. My instructor, I think was a local, nice guy, but there was a definite language barrier and not a lot of discussion other than do this like that. Had I spoke fluent Spanish, I'm sure I would've gotten a lot more instruction and better feedback. In hindsight, getting certified in a foreign country was probably not the best idea.
Also, on Dive 3 my primary regulator seemed faulty and I had to use my "buddy's" the one with the longer hose. That kinda threw me for a bit. The problem remained for Dive 4. My instructor was my buddy for both dives 3 & 4 and all the other experienced divers had their own buddy. In his defence, once at the bottom, he kept a good eye on me and showed me a ton of cool lifeforms. One other thing. When we were filling out my dive logs for the day back in the office, I was told to fill in 60 ft for both dives. It was such a cool dive site, we did Palancar Reef, the gardens I think. This will not stop me and only encourages me to get more experience and dive again soon.:)
nodakdive
February 7th, 2012, 10:43 PM
. The "confined water" dives were in very shallow water in front of Papa Hogs and until then I had not experienced any equalization problems.
Again, I'm not a professional, but I find this interesting. I've done those same shore dives with the shop. It's about 25 feet deep. Did you have to equalize on those dives at all? I ask because everyone's body is different, and the first time I read that I wondered if maybe you had a tolerance to the pressure, and didn't feel the need to equalize being that shallow. When I was much younger, I could skin dive down to 20 feet or so, and never felt the need to equalize my ears. Now, I can't make it to 5 or 6 feet deep without needing to equalize.
That said, another really helpful thing I learned was to start equalizing before your head is under the water on descent. Always very, very gently. In over 300 dives, I've only had a problem twice where I've had to ascend, and it was long ago before I knew this little trick. Since then, never a problem.
-Blair
Ron Lee
February 7th, 2012, 10:49 PM
Equalizing was my major concern when I started diving. After I was certified, I went into a pool and practiced different techniques to find what worked for me.
nodakdive
February 7th, 2012, 10:50 PM
It is my opinion,and policy of my shop that OW students be accompanied by a MSDT whose only focus is the students. On the rare occasion where we have both students and certified divers on the same boat there will be two instructors along. After 20 years of doing this I believe that should be the standard, but PADI don't listen to me.
Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers
This woulda been, shoulda been, coulda been #5 on my post above. On more than one occasion, I've been on the boat and that seems SOP. Last time was at Santa Rosa. The DM was with 3 of us certified divers, and the instructor was with 1 student. Maybe it's not SOP and it was just luck of the draw and what I witnessed. Didn't happen on the OP's trip obviously.
-Blair
bvana1
February 7th, 2012, 10:55 PM
Yes, I did equalize at the Pier area in front of Papa Hogs. Just once at the bottom, then I was good to go.
bvana1
February 7th, 2012, 11:01 PM
Gary was super helpful with answering my questions before I arrived and started the referral course. After I injured my ears and couldn't dive anymore, I'd stop by the office and no one seemed all that concerned. They finally suggested going to the DAN clinic and get checked out, which I did. The smartest thing I did was stop diving after the injury. That kinda hurt because I came to CZM specifically to dive.
beaverdivers
February 7th, 2012, 11:02 PM
In hindsight, getting certified in a foreign country was probably not the best idea.
Also, on Dive 3 my primary regulator seemed faulty Well, I'm glad you're OK and still have the desire to dive.
I would stongly recommend more training over in the hot springs in Utah.
About nodakdive question, equalize every two feet as you go down. Yes, start equalizing before your head is under the water on descent.
nodakdive
February 7th, 2012, 11:29 PM
Yes, I did equalize at the Pier area in front of Papa Hogs. Just once at the bottom, then I was good to go.
Ah. Yes. Again, I'm not a pro, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were slowly creating a barotrauma issue. The repeated dives where you were possibly (probably?) waiting until depth to equalize may have been makin' naughty with your ears. By the time you got on the boat, there may already have been slight barotrauma, and if you didn't equalize until you *felt the need*, it was too late.
How many dives did you do at the shore? By that, I mean, got in the water, got out of the water, etc.?
Thanks for the info,
-Blair
DevonDiver
February 8th, 2012, 12:01 AM
Apparently, this was dive 3 of 4.
Ok... so here's what should have happened on that dive. At this point, the instructor should be directing you on what you need to do and assessing your performance (and remediating, if necessary), but not demonstrating them - as you should have already been 'taught' these skills.
Perhaps you can indicate what was/wasn't performed:
Dive 3 Performance Requirements
At the surface:
1. Plan dive with dive computer or RDP.
2. Put on and adjust equipment.
3. Perform a predive safety check.
4. Adjust weighting.
Underwater:
5. Descend using a visual reference for control to 6-9 metres/20-30 feet. Use the five-point method.
6. Become neutrally buoyant by inflating the BCD orally.
7. Clear a fully flooded mask.
8. Explore the dive site.
9. Ascend no faster than 18 metres/60 feet per minute while maintaining buddy contact. Use the five-point method.
I did the E-learning and yes, I should've applied what I learned in the class. I'm happy to take my fair share of responsibility/blame for this incident.
It surprises me, when people complain about their OW courses, how they typically fail to raise concerns at the time with their instructors. The OW manual contains a full description of each training dive, as does the PADI DVD/Video - so students should know what skills they should be doing on each dive and how to do those skills. Where there is a deviation from what is expected (as per the PADI materials), then the student can...and should... immediately address their concerns to the instructor.
Yes, people do get 'ripped off' sometimes by unscrupulous dive instructors/operations... and it's important to address this. However, it is best addressed at the time, not retrospectively on the internet. It also unwise to make brash accusations on a public forum, unless you are very sure of the facts. It's easy to misinterpret instruction/safety when you are inexperienced. The fact you felt 'unsafe' or 'unsupervised' does not mean you were. Get some feedback before pointing the finger in blame.
We did NO dive planning whatsoever thoughout the entire course. Never even looked at dive tables or the RDP, only experience was in the E-learning.
That's of concern. As you can see by the performance requirements above - you should have planned every dive in advance. The instructor may set the depth/time, but students should still 'go through the motions' so that they know their end Pressure Group, NDL etc.
As an instructor, I like to encourage students to take more personal responsibility as the course progresses. Whilst supervision and safety is very real, I like the student to perceive that they're 'doing it for themselves'. That puts them into a more confident, responsible and competent position upon graduation. Sometimes even letting a student learn from mistakes or problem-solve, rather than nannying them (provided safety isn't an issue). Holding a student's hand, being 'in their face' and molly-coddling them has counter-productive end results - although I have no doubt that it 'feels' more reassuring for the student. Assuming that the dives are kept very safe and supervised, a student benefits most from the perceived challenge of having to stand on their own 2 feet.
Of course, the student concerned is not well-equipped (through education or experience) to understand how safe and supervised they actually are in those circumstances. Their perceptions, if issues are not raised/questions asked, may not be fair to the instructor concerned. Ask any of my students and they'll probably tell you that I was just a casual observer on their final check-out dive. In reality I am watching them like a hawk and ready to intervene for their safety in an instant.
My point being; leaping onto the internet because of your inexperienced perceptions may be doing a vast injustice to an otherwise very competent instructor. It's important to clarify before leaping to conclusions.
There was no "pre-dive discussion" whatsoever. I had NO IDEA what to expect or what the dive environment was going to be.
That strikes me as odd, because a dive briefing (including required skills) is necessary before the dive. That said, I've seen plenty enough divers miss that information because they were distracted/pre-occupied/disinterested. Again, taking personal responsibility and applying training dictates that a diver shouldn't enter the water unless fully cognizant of the dive plan, the dive site etc.
As far as any "accuracy issues"- my dive computer showed a max depth of 78 ft.
That's a breach of standards then. Can I ask what your reaction was when you exceeded your known recommended depth of 60ft?
Did the instructor maintain a depth of 60ft and you went below him? Or did the instructor lead the way to 78ft?
Whilst it doesn't sound like the case in your circumstance, I know of some instructors who will 'tempt' a diver beyond their planned depth as a learning point on situational awareness and dive management. However, that planned depth shouldn't exceed the statutory max depth defined by the course standards. It'd also be raised as part of a de-brief following the dive.
When we were filling out my dive logs for the day back in the office, I was told to fill in 60 ft for both dives.
That's quite dishonest/unethical of him. It hints to me that he knowingly breached standards and attempted to conceal it.
Out of interest however, what was the instructor's max depth, as per his dive computer?
Until a student is certified doesn't his safety take number 1 priority? He's still in training isn't he?
Absolutely.
I feel that when I continued to signal my ears are not equalizing, him and I should have ascended to the surface, discussed my training and tried again with some reinforcement.
As an instructor, I'd disagree with that perception/expectation. I try to discourage students from automatically resorting to surfacing as a resolution to minor problems. You don't need to surface in order to rectify an equalisation problem. This was an actual open water dive - so multiple ascents/descents can rapidly create an unhealthy 'saw-tooth' profile. In many situations, returning to the surface would/should be the end of the dive - so is to be avoided.
The instructor just continued to signal "equalize" by holding his nose. So we continued to descend.
This is the point that makes me really doubt your claims of 'lack of supervision'. You were in contact and communicating with the instructor throughout the incident. That shows two things; you weren't too far away and the instructor was observing/guiding you.
A lot of people on this thread seem to have made an assumption that the instructor was swimming off and leaving you. I doubted that. I think rightly so.
Was I really supposed to surface by myself?
At no point was 'surfacing' a desired or ideal situation. That's your perception. At no time is a student taught "to surface" as a resolution to equalisation problems. If the instructor was on hand to observe, monitor and supervise you (duty of care), then his expectation would be that you would effect the appropriate solution and continue the dive. There's nothing wrong in that. If you appeared to be in difficulty, then the instructor would intervene.
As I mentioned in my 'hypothetical scenario' earlier - you signalled "I have a problem - my ears - ascend". In line with the taught skill - this wouldn't mean "go to the surface". It would simply mean "ascend until equalisation could be achieved". If that ascent continued after multiple attempts, then the instructor would probably ascend and assist. If the instructor observed that you ascended a few feet, tried again, then re-descended to join him - then it's not unreasonable for him to assume they you dealt with the problem and were ready to continue the dive.
Not having dived ever before I had no other experience to draw upon such as what is acceptable pain and when there is a problem.
At what point in the course did your training allude to any level of acceptable pain? Seriously..... :dontknow:
have not heard back from PADI yet. It sounds like they won't do much if anything.
At most, PADI will just acknowledge your correspondence. They won't inform you of their actions. That doesn't mean they aren't investigating.
This link illustrates how PADI conduct a Quality Assurance investigation: http://www.padi.com/padi/common/pdfs/footer/00143_QASummary.pdf
Karibelle
February 8th, 2012, 12:55 AM
Of course it was Cozumel where this happened. Could have been anywhere. But based on the reputation the area has why anyone would choose to do OW training there and most especially referral dives is nuts. They are known for not following the rules, recommendations, or standards.
I have sent Jim a PM on this, but in retrospect I want to say it out loud.
There are instructors on Cozumel who strive, with each and every student, to do an excellent job. EVERY SINGLE STUDENT. I am one of those instructors, and I don't appreciate being painted with this brush. I welcome you all - students, instructors, divers, prospective students - to read what I and my colleagues at Blue Angel have to say on our website in two documents, one aimed at prospective students and one aimed at referring instructors. Open Water Referrals | Blue Angel Scuba School (http://blueangelscubaschool.com/training-programs/open-water-referrals/)
I also welcome any instructors who HAVE referred students here (or those who have not, or anyone, really) to provide feedback, to me, on the web, or to PADI. We are doing our very best! We will meet every standard to the best of our ability, and we will strive with every single student to do an awesome job. We want competent, confident divers. And what *I* want is to not be lumped into the bucket of "they suck."
those are my two cents.
kari
cvchief
February 8th, 2012, 02:22 AM
I have to say my experience in Coz was way different than what I get out of DevonDiver's approach. We did out checkouts elsewhere and the experience was not great. We signed on with a dive op that I thought would take care of us as we got some experience diving in Coz. As newly certified divers we were watched over like little chicks by a mother hen. We learned alot. In the dives since then I have seen many certified divers who were new or rusty appear on the boat. Maybe our DM/Instructor should not HAVE to take care of them and maybe she SHOULD be able to assume they had all the basic skill because they had a C card. She never did. The ear thing is a case in point. I have tight ears and for the longest time she would always be checking on me and reminding me to go up a bit. She reminded even though she HAD to figure I knew. Not so much any more as I have a bit more of handle on the ears and she knows it. I could easily see a new diver just keep going down with the group, not perhaps having the confidence to stop or accend with out some reinforement from their instructor. My point is I like to dive with someone like that. I have to say the approach of "you should know these skills and not expect help with what you should know" isnt what I want in vacation diving. Maybe exactly what I would want if I was a career diver, but not as a recreational guy. I like knowing someone has an eye out for me screwing the pooch on something basic.
I only ever dove in CZM on one other boat and that guy was just as attentive. And knowing other DM and instructors, like Karibelle, I would bet the greater majority are the same kind of attentive people who look out for a newbie and take care of them beyond simply fulfilling the instructor duties as set forth in a manual.
Dave Dillehay
February 8th, 2012, 06:50 AM
Dear Devon Diver,
I have been running a dive op in Cozumel since 1992 and have to agree that for the most part the Dive Professionals there are good as any you will find anywhere (I am in Boracay the Philippines right now so you must know I have been around). But I also know that there are dive shops that bend rules everywhere. Indeed, here in Boracay I could not find a single dive op boat that carried Oxygen or radios! Same thing in PADI certified shops in Ixtapa, Mexico, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, or all over the Caribbean. I have seen Discover Scuba divers left to the mercy of their barely qualified OW friends in tough conditions (ixtapa), so I am never going to defend every one and blame it on the student.
The fact is that PADI rules, not withstanding, it is absurd to expect every OW referral diver to be fully aware of the risks or procedures to be followed—even if that is what the "macho" world expects. That is why I strongly believe that every OW student should have the UNDIVIDED attention of a Dive Instructor—not someone who is also concerned about leading a dive group. So don't blame the messenger in this case, just try to help PADI see that the divided attention of a Dive Instructor is not safe for many OW students.
Of course that is just my opinion.
Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers
DevonDiver
February 8th, 2012, 08:29 AM
Dave/CVChief - I think you misunderstand. I wasn't trying to make excuses for the dive op - merely, in an unbiased and unconnected capacity - to present options and perspectives that might serve to balance the debate. I felt the OP presented a very one-sided and ill informed criticism of a dive centre, based upon his perceptions of what happened. As devil's advocate, nothing more, I wished to raise the possibility that there were other sides to the story. I also wished to examine the responsibilities, on both sides, student and instructor, that form the relationship within a training course.
Unless you were a witness to the course in question, and have an instructor-level understanding of how a course may be run, then it is prudent to keep an open-mind on such matters. I saw a lot of people jumping to vast conclusions, based on a report based upon the perceptions of a disgruntled customer. I also saw errors and inconsistencies in that report. In a neutral capacity, I have sought to clarify those errors and inconsistencies.
I don't, not for a second, wish to make any presumptions about what actually happened on this course. My responses have been merely to encourage others to do the same.
CVChief, I have not sought to advocate any form of diving instructional practice. I merely point out that different instructors have different approaches to training... and that an OW student may easily fail to recognise the methods or motivations of an instructor's actions. That does not, of course, deny the reality that some instructors are indeed negligent, lazy or downright incompetent in their duties. I just felt that, with the information provided, such a determination was impossible... it was unwise and premature... based upon an emotional and uninformed public lynching, as the OP may have intended. In addition, I feel that you have greatly misunderstood the teaching approach I have explained, as an example, in this thread. It'd be off-topic to follow that course of debate on this thread - but if you wish to further debate the matter, or receive a more clear explanation, then please start an appropriate thread and let me know - I'll be happy to join you there. :)
Dave, you are absolutely correct and I certainly won't deny that the standard of scuba instruction and diver safety is enormously varied across different regions and dive operations. Again, that's a debate for another thread.
Within this thread, I have read statements made by the OP and see many different factors. Some point towards standards violations. Others are merely a matter of perspective. A perspective, in this case, that doesn't understand the function, format and philosophies of teaching scuba divers. A perspective that has also leapt to potentially inaccurate conclusions regarding the risk and/or injury they may have been exposed to. Without hearing the other side of the story, there is little to balance that perspective except for the informed consideration of those who do teach. I don't blame the OP for his perspectives, however, I have attempted to post questions and comments that might encourage them, and others, to analyse them.
Some issues were also raised but not fully clarified. I was surprised to see that some people have leapt into the debate fray without seeking to clarify these issues. It's wrong to castigate someone based on assumptions. With the information presented here thus far, nothing more than assumptions could have been made. I thought that was unfair and irresponsible.
I sought to raise doubt... both in the OP and the reader's minds. Because if doubt might exist, then it supports my recommendations that perhaps a more effective way for the OP to raise this issue would be to ask questions first and make accusations later. For instance, a simple post on the Diving Medicine forum would have eased the OP's concerns about their 'bloody nose'. Likewise, a few questions in New Divers and/or Basic Scuba would have clarified the standards applied on Open Water courses. I am sure that informed responses would have been forthcoming from the helpful divers and instructors who form this online community. If, having done this research, the OP still felt that the dive centre/instructor concerned had failed in their duties, then an accurate and clear warning could be given. Such a report would carry a lot more weight, and be a lot more useful for fellow divers, than an uninformed, emotional and potentially inaccurate public outburst.
I have also sought to illustrate some learning points from the OP's experience. In particular, the need to take personal responsibility in the conduct of your dives. Yes, of course, the instructor has a duty of care to the student. That is undeniable. But... and a big 'but'... the existence of 'duty of care' does not allow the individual student to abdicate responsibility for their own safety.
My personal approach is to empower students to grasp that responsibility and apply it whilst diving... as they would do in day-to-day life. I do so because, when their course ends, that responsibility will be theirs...and theirs alone. I disagree with creating students who are reliant on others, particularly professionals, to take responsibility for them. Who need to be told what to do, after graduation. That is an instructional failing and not in the spirit of what the open water course is designed to achieve. Nor is it in the interests of diver safety. Reality may support that this failing occurs all to often, for which the modern scuba industry should be ashamed.
I felt that I recognised this attitude in the OP... who on his check-out dives... was perplexed that his instructor did not molly-coddle him to the surface. I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure. Would I have intervened? Probably. But that's situationally dependant and the situation is not accurately known. But having intervened, I would have an interesting de-brief for the student... who'd need to rectify their deficiencies before re-taking that check-out dive. Was this the intention of the instructor concerned in this incident? Possibly not. Maybe probably not. But I won't cast judgement based on an assumption. That is all.
morecowbells
February 8th, 2012, 11:14 AM
So sorry to read about your experience. Barotrauma is one of those experiences that is so painful that it can negatively influence your decision towards any future of diving. I have had middle ear issues all my life. I could not even equalize my ears during one of my OW pool dives. I was persistent and have been rewarded with over a hundred dives. My advise is to follow these three words: Equalize, equalize and equalize. I do this on a daily basis. Per an ENT doctors suggestion, I do it dozens of times a day starting a month before my dive vacation. It has made a HUGE difference. I always let my DM know ahead of time that I require a lot of time during my descent. I also am diligent in equalizing several times when at depth. The most valuable resource out there is this DAN article I came across on Scubaboard. While lengthy, the benefits are invaluable. So much that an ENT doctor I work with saved a copy of it for his practice.
While Cozumel is not the best destination for a new diver, it should not be entirely discounted. I did my certification dives there and it was a wonderful experience. I think there is an abundance of dive ops which maintain if not exceed PADI standards and regulations.
cvchief
February 8th, 2012, 11:30 AM
DevonDiver,
I am certainly all for keeping an open mind. I certainly wasn't on that dive. And with due respect, your service as the devil's advocate, to me, come off as a bit off-putting. To say unless someone has an instructor's level of understanding of training they may be incapable of understanding why an instructor acts as he does is a not appealing to the low speed, high drag types. I might like what I guess your training is like, but I would fear that my wife might not have taken to the sport with that sort of instruction.
I would suggest that regardless of the individual actions of the instructor, the instructor HAS failed the student when the student has been allowed to walk away feeling the OP clearly does. Perhaps not by methodology or approach, but philosophically at least. Maybe what I am really saying is something about customer service, not instruction?
For the purposes of the Coz board, I don't think most students will come away with the OP's perception of their training and will find most instructors more attentive.
I don't want to engage in a debate on scuba instruction technique somewhere else, because you clearly outclass me in that. Should I be so fortunate as to visit the Philippines some day, maybe you can teach me some wreck diving.
bvana1
February 8th, 2012, 11:46 AM
Equalizing was my major concern when I started diving. After I was certified, I went into a pool and practiced different techniques to find what worked for me.
that's what I plan doing with some friends, all either experienced or advanced DM's. I wish we had done that for the shore dives 1 & 2. I had plenty of air left, lots of energy and was there to learn.
awap
February 8th, 2012, 11:57 AM
You can train your ears to equalize easier.
And you can get a good start on dry land. Practice clearing your ears every day. Not too hard. It should never hurt. this (and breathing techniques can eve be practiced at work so the work is not just a total waste of potential dive time. When diving, start clearing your ears when you get up in the morning. By the time you hit the water, you want them loosened up and ready to go.
Practice, practice, practice.
cvchief
February 8th, 2012, 12:11 PM
You can train your ears to equalize easier.
And you can get a good start on dry land. Practice clearing your ears every day. Not too hard. It should never hurt. this (and breathing techniques can eve be practiced at work so the work is not just a total waste of potential dive time. When diving, start clearing your ears when you get up in the morning. By the time you hit the water, you want them loosened up and ready to go.
Practice, practice, practice.
I actually called DAN, found an ENT 3.5 hours away and went to see him. He said my estachion tubes were small and I have a giant set of adenoids. (I was thinking of putting that in my profile.) Now I do the steroid nasal spray for a week or so before a trip. I got the diving ear plugs too. I can get down now fairly quickly. Some days it is a fight though. I keep training them.
bvana1
February 8th, 2012, 12:15 PM
Hey DevonDiverDave, I appreciate what your saying.
I was not in CZM to party or casually take up diving. I just turned 50 and I was there by myself for one thing: To get certified and safely learn to dive. Having had enough experience with other so-called Adventure Sports like off-road motorcycling or WW kayaking I was aware of the importance of learning safe and sound procedures and techniques. I wish my training there did just that. My fault for not demanding for more "water time" at the shore dives. I had the air, time and energy. Again, there was a serious language barrier and little if any discussion other than regarding equipment and that day's excercises.
I have no doubt, had I been in one of your classes, this would probably not have happened.
boulderjohn
February 8th, 2012, 12:36 PM
have not heard back from PADI yet. It sounds like they won't do much if anything.
Give it some time. Ironically, just before reading this thread yesterday I was reading the latest edition of the PADI professional journal. It included an article listing by name the instructors who were banned permanently by PADI or suspended in the previous year for standards violations. It included the numbers of instructors who were referred for retraining. There are clearly results from these reports, but they do take some time. Furthermore, they don't just act on impulse--there has to be an investigation. Finally, they might not tell you the final results. I had results when I made a report a number of years ago, but I didn't learn about it from PADI until I became a pro myself and had access to the information.
It surprises me, when people complain about their OW courses, how they typically fail to raise concerns at the time with their instructors. The OW manual contains a full description of each training dive, as does the PADI DVD/Video - so students should know what skills they should be doing on each dive and how to do those skills. Where there is a deviation from what is expected (as per the PADI materials), then the student can...and should... immediately address their concerns to the instructor.
...
That's of concern. As you can see by the performance requirements above - you should have planned every dive in advance.
...
That strikes me as odd, because a dive briefing (including required skills) is necessary before the dive. That said, I've seen plenty enough divers miss that information because they were distracted/pre-occupied/disinterested. Again, taking personal responsibility and applying training dictates that a diver shouldn't enter the water unless fully cognizant of the dive plan, the dive site etc.
...
That's a breach of standards then. Can I ask what your reaction was when you exceeded your known recommended depth of 60ft?
An OW diver is struggling to learn how to dive. I would never expect them to study the standards for the dives so that they can double check to make sure the instructor is doing the job correctly. You seem to think they should pass an exam on the PADI Standards and Procedures before certifying. I would bet that if I didn't tell my students that they were limited to 60 feet on dives 3 & 4, they would never know it. I wonder of the OP in this thread knows he was limited to 40 feet on dives 1 &2, and I further wonder if that standard was not breached as well. I do have my students participate in planning their dives, but if I just told them what we were doing, as I know many instructors do, I don't think any one of them would know they were being cheated.
I was initially certified in a Mexican resort (not Cozumel), and I worked hard to get in all the learning I could as I was directed by my instructor. I did whatever he said when he said to do it, just as students are taught to do in all instruction everywhere. I had no idea before that what diving was like. When I was done, I was happy to have gotten through it all. Several years later, when I began working on my DM certification, I was surprised at all the skills I was being required to demonstrate. I went back to my original log book and saw how very many things were ticked off as having been done that I am quite sure I never did. I had no idea until then that the instructor had violated so many standards. I think my failure to read the standards for the course and cross reference with what actually happened is the norm, and it would be a very rare student who would check on that and challenge the instructor.
nodakdive
February 8th, 2012, 01:16 PM
Bvana1,
Still wondering how many dives you did at Papa Hogs? Was it just 2 dives down to 25 feet, or did you actually go beyond 40 feet deep as someone has suggested?
If you went beyond 40 feet deep, did you need to equalize when you got deeper than 25 feet? Did your ears hurt when you equalized at 25 feet, or did you just
feel the need to equalize at 25 feet, or did you just equalize at 25 feet?
Thanks,
-Blair
cvchief
February 8th, 2012, 01:50 PM
If I aint equalizing by 10-15 feet I'm in trouble. I have to get it done by there or I will lock up for any deeper.
bvana1
February 8th, 2012, 02:12 PM
Bvana1,
Still wondering how many dives you did at Papa Hogs? Was it just 2 dives down to 25 feet, or did you actually go beyond 40 feet deep as someone has suggested?
If you went beyond 40 feet deep, did you need to equalize when you got deeper than 25 feet? Did your ears hurt when you equalized at 25 feet, or did you just
feel the need to equalize at 25 feet, or did you just equalize at 25 feet?
Thanks,
-Blair
The first day we stayed in very shallow water 8-10 ft I'd guess. Mainly just got used to the equipment. The second day we went slightly beyond the pier no deeper than about 20-25 ft. I only had to equalize my ears once or twice at that depth and it was easy to clear them then.
nodakdive
February 8th, 2012, 02:25 PM
If I aint equalizing by 10-15 feet I'm in trouble. I have to get it done by there or I will lock up for any deeper.
Yea, 5 or 6 feet for me. I'm amazed that anyone can make it to 25 feet without equalizing, but as I mentioned earlier, when I was young I skin dove all the time, and never had a problem, actually, never felt any pressure on my ears. Most of my "skin diving" was in a deep swimming pool, but there were times at the lake I'd go down past 15 feet to probably 20, and still didn't feel a thing. At that time, I didn't even know about valsalva maneuvers.
The couple times I had trouble scuba diving, I think I was a little overweighted and thus descended faster than one normally would. Dive one, I'd have a 3 mil long sleeve shorty on, and on dive two I'd just have a t-shirt on. (I like to stay hydrated, and I don't like to pee in a wetsuit.) I didn't adjust my weights to compensate, and as a new diver I was probably a little overweighted with the neoprene on, but with the neoprene off, well, you can imagine. Down I'd go, nose pinched, but a little task overloaded, so I didn't equalize until too late. I'd probably already been told in training at some point, or had even read it somewhere, to equalize while on the surface, but didn't catch it. I'd usually have no problem, but the DM saw that I had to ascend to re-eq, and said something. I guess a little pain can be a great motivator. :) A vigilante DM is a good thing too.
Now, eq'ing on the surface is second nature.
It must take a heck of a toot to eq at 25 feet? But again, everyone's body is different.
-Blair
nodakdive
February 8th, 2012, 02:35 PM
The first day we stayed in very shallow water 8-10 ft I'd guess. Mainly just got used to the equipment. The second day we went slightly beyond the pier no deeper than about 20-25 ft. I only had to equalize my ears once or twice at that depth and it was easy to clear them then.
So, 2 days on the shore. Maybe your ears don't feel any pressure at 8 to 10. I wonder if the first two days of dives didn't actually introduce a little teeny bit of barotrauma, and by day 3 when you were boat diving it was an accident waiting to happen, and if you didn't feel the need to equalize until 25 feet, it was probably too late. Here comes the blood.
I think you mentioned in your first post that you were coughing up blood. Do you imagine it was from your lungs? What did the doctor at the clinic say about the blood being coughed up?
Thanks again for the extra info,
-Blair
bvana1
February 8th, 2012, 03:13 PM
Everyone including the Dr at the DAN clinic said it was "normal". I guess "normal" for a symptom of Barotrauma. We both agree that I probably caused the problem by trying to force my ears to clear at depth rather than ascend a bit to relieve some pressure, than try at the lesser depth.
SCUBAPA75
February 8th, 2012, 03:28 PM
Hey. I was the "experienced diver" on the boat with you. And my friend Don was the other diver who was getting his open water cert. Funny, Don didn't have ANY problems on the dives. You know why? Because HE spent the extra money to have THREE days of one-on-one time with an instructor and actually LEARN how to dive. Unlike you, who bragged on the boat that you did all your stuff online to SAVE A LITTLE money and that you didn't need all that actual instruction. And I heard Rafael tell you OVER AND OVER AGAIN...DO NOT descend if you cannot equalize. And I saw you tell him you were okay. AFTER you had to hold his hand for the first half of the dive. If you would have actually paid the money for face to face diving instruction you would know that you can NOT equalize while ascending and that is THE most common cause of barotrauma, which you admitted to doing on the boat. But even if you did not get that information on your pathetic ONLINE course,
Rafael told us ALL the safety information that Deep Blue does on EVERY dive. Remember the conversation about it being like an airline steward?? Never hurts to hear the safety information again? That is because I have heard that same speech on EVERY dive with Deep Blue...and I've been diving with them for 10 years. I am an ADVANCED open water diver with over 150+ dives. You were given the option not to dive again after your
first display of stupidity, and YOU CHOSE to get back in the water. And the beginning of both dives was me (and DON)...hanging out on the sandy bottom while you took 20 minutes to descend. Then you blew through all your air in the next 20 minutes....while you were holding hands with the dive instructor because you were scared. And you and Don, never went below 60'. You were told from the beginning on the boat that your MAX DEPTH was to be 60' and you were particularly instructed to WATCH your gauges and shown how to use the computer. You are the only person who is responsible. You tried to cut corners and save a little money and do the online course and you OBVIOUSLY did not pay attention to the safety information that was given to you MULTIPLE times. You are the only money greedy person in this situation and you should NOT blame Rafael or Deep Blue. You should stay out of the water and off the island. And withdraw this unfounded, ridiculous review from a whiney, bad diver who wants to blame everyone else for his piss poor preparation before trying to get in the water.
Dave Dillehay
February 8th, 2012, 03:33 PM
Dear Devon Diver,
My SINGLE point was that Dive Instructors should not have divided duties when in the water with OW students, that's all.
Dave Dillehay
Aldora Divers
Zman96
February 8th, 2012, 03:42 PM
Well I can see we have picked up right where the Scuba Mau thread left off.
:chairfight::popcorn:
dmoore19
February 8th, 2012, 03:47 PM
Scubapa75
You might want to use a more measured approach to your post. You might still be able to edit it.
Just say you were there and what you observed. Let the rest unfold before your eyes. Name calling doesn't really get you too far. Observations from someone who was there might get your point across better. IJS
nimoh
February 8th, 2012, 04:01 PM
I was curious as to why the OP did another dive after coughing up blood.
I am not an instructor but have DM experience with students. If I had a student coughing up blood, I wouldn't let them do another dive, but at the same time, I would expect them to tell me (and/or the instructor) that they would not be doing another dive.
From the original story, it seems that the OP was somewhat negligent with respect to their own safety, and although a good instructor probably could have prevented some (or all) of this, I don't think it is fair to dump all of the problems on the instructor.
Furthermore, I am not sure why any blame is laid on the dive shop. What was expected of them that they didn't do?
Hank49
February 8th, 2012, 04:04 PM
IFurthermore, I am not sure why any blame is laid on the dive shop. What was expected of them that they didn't do?
Well, that would depend on whose story you believe.
SCUBAPA75
February 8th, 2012, 04:06 PM
Well, I do apologize to anyone I may have offended with my post. I love diving. I love Cozumel and happen to be a long time customer of Deep Blue. There is nothing that makes me more angry than people who assassinate the sport because they do not take responsibility for their own actions and their own safety in open water. SCUBA diving is a passion of mine and I took personal offense to those outrageous accusations. I hope you all won't judge me based on one post. XOXOXOXO :)
nimoh
February 8th, 2012, 04:09 PM
Well, that would depend on whose story you believe.
Neither story indicated anything that the dive shop did or didn't do. The OP claimed that the dive shop didn't apologize, but didn't indicate what they should have been apologizing for.
Ron Lee
February 8th, 2012, 04:11 PM
Why do people call scuba diving a "sport?"
I have yet to hear someone be called a winner after a dive. It is a recreational activity.
SCUBAPA75
February 8th, 2012, 04:11 PM
He wasn't coughing up blood for Pete's sake. He had a nosebleed. Textbook reaction to over equalizing, especially on the ascent.
Deborah Felixson
February 8th, 2012, 04:13 PM
I am Deborah Felixson, the owner of Deep Blue in Cozumel. I have spent the last 24 hours gathering all the fact about this issue, reading all the posts about this and I am ready to address all the issues bvana has very unjustly and inaccurately accused us of all over the world…this Forum, Lonely Planet, Trip Advisor, PADI, etc.
Thank you DevonDiver for your very eloquent and spot-on and objective posts. There is another side to this story, as with all, and after you read this, THEN be the judge and jury.
I can just start by saying that there were a total of 6 divers on that boat with an Instructor and a DM. The other 2 “very experienced” divers bvana was referring to was a gentleman who was doing his first dives after just completing an Open Water Course with us the day before, and his partner who asked to join them in spite of the Instructor warning her that they would remain at 60 ft max depth. She choose to stay with her partner rather than go with the other DM and the other 3 certified divers . She is an experienced diver who has been diving with us for 10 years, and would not distract the Instructor in any way.
As with Aldora, we do not combine certified divers with divers in training, which is why we had another DM on the boat, but when there are couples or family, I’m not going to deny them to dive together if it’s not breaking standards.
His Instructor Rafael is one of the most serious, conscientious, by the book, Instructors I have worked with in the 16 years I’ve owned Deep Blue. We have an impeccable record with PADI which I welcome everyone to verify, specially you bvana.
The Instructor completed all of the course requirements from the beach the first 2 days. This is our standard description of the course, which was sent to bvana by email when he inquired about it:
“Day 1: Confined water dives 1, 2 & 3 and Open Water dives 1& 2. Duration =
5 hours. This is done at Villablanca Beach, about 1 mile outside of town, on
a very nice reef with lot's of coral and fish to see at a maximum depth of
30 feet. We do not do group instructions - we take a maximum of 4 students
per Instructor, and most of the time it's one or two-on-one with the
Instructor.
Day 2: Confined water dives 4 & 5 and Open Water dives 3& 4. Duration = 5
hours.
Day 3: Open Water Dives. You go out on the boat and do a 2-tank dive. At
this point, you're basically done with the course and this is just 2 fun
dives.”
Even so, the first boat dive was Palancar Gardens. The plan was to 60 ft., the dive depth WAS 60ft. Could it be that he heard the others talking about 78 feet and thought he went that deep? OF COURSE he was given a detailed briefing as we always do, whether it’s with students or certified divers, it’s obviously SOP, and to claim that he received no briefing or instructions about his FIRST ocean dive is ludicrous and beyond belief in our industry, come on….
The Instructor worked with him like we do all divers having problems equalizing, ascend a bit, try again, slowly, etc. SOP….after 20 min. or so of this he signaled he was okay and didn’t complain anymore during the dive. Upon surfacing there was a bit of blood in the mask!, NOT “coughed up” like he claimed. Even so, the Instructor gave him the option to sit out the second dive and bvana CHOSE to do it.
I would like an explanation of how I benefit financially if my Instructors push students beyond safe levels and subsequently suffer barotraumas and cant’ dive anymore? Bvana never complained in the shop about being forced or feeling pressured in any way. He was on the list to dive one morning after taking a day off and was scheduled to go out with a private DM which the Instructor recommend he do, concerned for his safety and comfort, and when he called to cancel about 1 hour before the trip, he was not charged a cancellation fee even though the private DM was left without work and I was left with an empty seat on the boat. In no way, shape or form did he hold Rafael or us responsible for his problems while he was here, until now.
I have a statement from the “experienced diver” in their group and even though I have her permission to post it, I have to tell you I hesitate a bit as it’s a bit colorful and offensive….and I don’t want to seem self-serving.
I am waiting to hear from the other gentleman, so maybe more later.
Now it’s a bit more fair to be the judge and jury….
Deborah
SCUBAPA75
February 8th, 2012, 04:22 PM
At DaveDillehay...the instructor did not have divided duties...he had TWO OW students to check off. I was just tagging along with them and when they surfaced I joined the other group of divers on the same boat that had their OWN Dive Master.
nodakdive
February 8th, 2012, 04:22 PM
Hey. I was the "experienced diver" on the boat with you. And my friend Don was the other diver who was getting his open water cert. Funny, Don didn't have ANY problems on the dives. You know why? Because HE spent the extra money to have THREE days of one-on-one time with an instructor and actually LEARN how to dive. Unlike you, who bragged on the boat that you did all your stuff online to SAVE A LITTLE money and that you didn't need all that actual instruction. And I heard Rafael tell you OVER AND OVER AGAIN...DO NOT descend if you cannot equalize. And I saw you tell him you were okay. AFTER you had to hold his hand for the first half of the dive. If you would have actually paid the money for face to face diving instruction you would know that you can NOT equalize while ascending and that is THE most common cause of barotrauma, which you admitted to doing on the boat. But even if you did not get that information on your pathetic ONLINE course,
Rafael told us ALL the safety information that Deep Blue does on EVERY dive. Remember the conversation about it being like an airline steward?? Never hurts to hear the safety information again? That is because I have heard that same speech on EVERY dive with Deep Blue...and I've been diving with them for 10 years. I am an ADVANCED open water diver with over 150+ dives. You were given the option not to dive again after your
first display of stupidity, and YOU CHOSE to get back in the water. And the beginning of both dives was me (and DON)...hanging out on the sandy bottom while you took 20 minutes to descend. Then you blew through all your air in the next 20 minutes....while you were holding hands with the dive instructor because you were scared. And you and Don, never went below 60'. You were told from the beginning on the boat that your MAX DEPTH was to be 60' and you were particularly instructed to WATCH your gauges and shown how to use the computer. You are the only person who is responsible. You tried to cut corners and save a little money and do the online course and you OBVIOUSLY did not pay attention to the safety information that was given to you MULTIPLE times. You are the only money greedy person in this situation and you should NOT blame Rafael or Deep Blue. You should stay out of the water and off the island. And withdraw this unfounded, ridiculous review from a whiney, bad diver who wants to blame everyone else for his piss poor preparation before trying to get in the water.
Um. Wow. A few questions....
Were you the only 3 divers on the boat?
Was this a morning dive or an afternoon dive? (I suspect it was an afternoon dive if you were the only 3 on the boat?)
You said that your friend Don was getting his open water cert. Does that mean these were part of Don's cert. dives?
Was communication of the equalization problem done in a standard or agreed upon fashion. (i.e. wiggle the hand, point to the ears)
Was your max depth deeper than 60 feet?
I take it that your friend Don didn't do the online course, or that he did, but paid for extra training time?
Thanks in advance,
-Blair
Hatul
February 8th, 2012, 04:23 PM
If the opening post is accurate, the instructor is fully at fault. The student takes priority, and a problem takes priority over continuing as though nothing is wrong. I'm totally with the OP on this one.
Adam
SCUBAPA75
February 8th, 2012, 04:34 PM
Um. Wow. A few questions....
Were you the only 3 divers on the boat?
No. There were 6 divers. and TWO divemasters. TWO. One divemaster went with the THREE experienced divers. The other divemaster had the two new divers with him. I went with the new divers just as a tag along to dive with my buddy who is a new diver.
Was this a morning dive or an afternoon dive? (I suspect it was an afternoon dive if you were the only 3 on the boat?)
It was a morning dive. Deep Blue has small, fast boats that only accommodate so many people. You are NEVER with a large group with that company.
You said that your friend Don was getting his open water cert. Does that mean these were part of Don's cert. dives?
Yes. Don was also getting "checked off" on his OW cert that day.
Was communication of the equalization problem done in a standard or agreed upon fashion. (i.e. wiggle the hand, point to the ears)
All of the standard safety and pre-dive discussions were had on the boat prior to anyone putting on any gear. Including equalization, what to do if you have problems and how to communicate effectively with the other divers.
Was your max depth deeper than 60 feet?
To be perfectly honest, MY MAX DEPTH was 78 feet. I dropped down below the other divers for my own diving pleasure. But the instructor and the 2 new divers NEVER even approached my depth. They stayed well above me the ENTIRE dive.
I take it that your friend Don didn't do the online course, or that he did, but paid for extra training time?
No, Don did the full OW course with a one-on-one instructor. He was fully prepared for his OW dives and had NO issues following direction or equalizing as directed.
nimoh
February 8th, 2012, 04:56 PM
He wasn't coughing up blood for Pete's sake. He had a nosebleed. Textbook reaction to over equalizing, especially on the ascent.
that makes a lot more sense, I can't imagine anyone going on another dive after coughing up blood.
nodakdive
February 8th, 2012, 05:01 PM
I am Deborah Felixson, the owner of Deep Blue in Cozumel. I have spent the last 24 hours gathering all the fact about this issue, reading all the posts about this and I am ready to address all the issues bvana has very unjustly and inaccurately accused us of all over the world…this Forum, Lonely Planet, Trip Advisor, PADI, etc.
Thank you DevonDiver for your very eloquent and spot-on and objective posts. There is another side to this story, as with all, and after you read this, THEN be the judge and jury.
I can just start by saying that there were a total of 6 divers on that boat with an Instructor and a DM. The other 2 “very experienced” divers bvana was referring to was a gentleman who was doing his first dives after just completing an Open Water Course with us the day before, and his partner who asked to join them in spite of the Instructor warning her that they would remain at 60 ft max depth. She choose to stay with her partner rather than go with the other DM and the other 3 certified divers . She is an experienced diver who has been diving with us for 10 years, and would not distract the Instructor in any way.
As with Aldora, we do not combine certified divers with divers in training, which is why we had another DM on the boat, but when there are couples or family, I’m not going to deny them to dive together if it’s not breaking standards.
His Instructor Rafael is one of the most serious, conscientious, by the book, Instructors I have worked with in the 16 years I’ve owned Deep Blue. We have an impeccable record with PADI which I welcome everyone to verify, specially you bvana.
The Instructor completed all of the course requirements from the beach the first 2 days. This is our standard description of the course, which was sent to bvana by email when he inquired about it:
“Day 1: Confined water dives 1, 2 & 3 and Open Water dives 1& 2. Duration =
5 hours. This is done at Villablanca Beach, about 1 mile outside of town, on
a very nice reef with lot's of coral and fish to see at a maximum depth of
30 feet. We do not do group instructions - we take a maximum of 4 students
per Instructor, and most of the time it's one or two-on-one with the
Instructor.
Day 2: Confined water dives 4 & 5 and Open Water dives 3& 4. Duration = 5
hours.
Day 3: Open Water Dives. You go out on the boat and do a 2-tank dive. At
this point, you're basically done with the course and this is just 2 fun
dives.”
Even so, the first boat dive was Palancar Gardens. The plan was to 60 ft., the dive depth WAS 60ft. Could it be that he heard the others talking about 78 feet and thought he went that deep? OF COURSE he was given a detailed briefing as we always do, whether it’s with students or certified divers, it’s obviously SOP, and to claim that he received no briefing or instructions about his FIRST ocean dive is ludicrous and beyond belief in our industry, come on….
The Instructor worked with him like we do all divers having problems equalizing, ascend a bit, try again, slowly, etc. SOP….after 20 min. or so of this he signaled he was okay and didn’t complain anymore during the dive. Upon surfacing there was a bit of blood in the mask!, NOT “coughed up” like he claimed. Even so, the Instructor gave him the option to sit out the second dive and bvana CHOSE to do it.
I would like an explanation of how I benefit financially if my Instructors push students beyond safe levels and subsequently suffer barotraumas and cant’ dive anymore? Bvana never complained in the shop about being forced or feeling pressured in any way. He was on the list to dive one morning after taking a day off and was scheduled to go out with a private DM which the Instructor recommend he do, concerned for his safety and comfort, and when he called to cancel about 1 hour before the trip, he was not charged a cancellation fee even though the private DM was left without work and I was left with an empty seat on the boat. In no way, shape or form did he hold Rafael or us responsible for his problems while he was here, until now.
I have a statement from the “experienced diver” in their group and even though I have her permission to post it, I have to tell you I hesitate a bit as it’s a bit colorful and offensive….and I don’t want to seem self-serving.
I am waiting to hear from the other gentleman, so maybe more later.
Now it’s a bit more fair to be the judge and jury….
Deborah
So, they weren't certification dives??? Wow and a half. So, in essence, you sent a private DM out for the new divers?
Wasn't "coughing" blood? (well, I suppose a little nasal drip my have been involved, but that's far different from "coughing" blood.)
Not 78 feet?
Yikes.
Thank you Deborah for addressing this issue.
-Blair
Jim Lapenta
February 8th, 2012, 05:47 PM
Give it some time. Ironically, just before reading this thread yesterday I was reading the latest edition of the PADI professional journal. It included an article listing by name the instructors who were banned permanently by PADI or suspended in the previous year for standards violations. It included the numbers of instructors who were referred for retraining. There are clearly results from these reports, but they do take some time. Furthermore, they don't just act on impulse--there has to be an investigation. Finally, they might not tell you the final results. I had results when I made a report a number of years ago, but I didn't learn about it from PADI until I became a pro myself and had access to the information.
An OW diver is struggling to learn how to dive. I would never expect them to study the standards for the dives so that they can double check to make sure the instructor is doing the job correctly. You seem to think they should pass an exam on the PADI Standards and Procedures before certifying. I would bet that if I didn't tell my students that they were limited to 60 feet on dives 3 & 4, they would never know it. I wonder of the OP in this thread knows he was limited to 40 feet on dives 1 &2, and I further wonder if that standard was not breached as well. I do have my students participate in planning their dives, but if I just told them what we were doing, as I know many instructors do, I don't think any one of them would know they were being cheated.
I was initially certified in a Mexican resort (not Cozumel), and I worked hard to get in all the learning I could as I was directed by my instructor. I did whatever he said when he said to do it, just as students are taught to do in all instruction everywhere. I had no idea before that what diving was like. When I was done, I was happy to have gotten through it all. Several years later, when I began working on my DM certification, I was surprised at all the skills I was being required to demonstrate. I went back to my original log book and saw how very many things were ticked off as having been done that I am quite sure I never did. I had no idea until then that the instructor had violated so many standards. I think my failure to read the standards for the course and cross reference with what actually happened is the norm, and it would be a very rare student who would check on that and challenge the instructor.
And that's why I tell my students and advise new divers and those thinking of taking up the activity to do just that. Ask to see the standards you are supposed to be trained to. I have them right out in the open every class session and will often refer to them and point out items in them as we are going over the lessons. They are not some secret. It's one of the items I included in my book. Ask what the standards are and if you can see them. If the instructor says no, you don't need to, or I don't have them handy right now - walk away.
What the instructor can and cannot do should be in the mind of every student and they should be encouraged to have it there. They should know you can't take them below certain depths, that you have to see them perform skills in a certain way, that they cannot just skip over things and then say you did them. The first class session is for paperwork and explanations of what will go on in the class. It should also be the time to tell them not only what they are doing but why they are doing it and why it's done in this manner.
Gdog
February 8th, 2012, 06:28 PM
Thank you Deborah for posting, as well as scubapa75. As previously pointed out, there are always 2 sides to every story. Jumping to conclusions at the end of a one sided story usually just adds to the drama. I have dove with Deep Blue several times over the course of about 3 years. They always followed protocol, and were always very professional. Put it this way.....Deep Blue is one of the dive shops I would refer anybody to, including new divers.
The advent of the internet has made it much to easy in many respects. I believe the OP felt his education in OW diving would sufficient if done online....how would he know any different unless he had an experienced diver tell him? The truth is, the internet tries to be a one size fits all in that respect, while the one on one time spent with an instructor in the pool is invaluable and irreplaceable as it can be taylored to the needs of that new diver. Diving is a poor choice of sports if ones objective is to go the cheap route....nothing in this sport is cheap!
sorry..just my dos pesos...
cvchief
February 8th, 2012, 06:55 PM
I would note the Deep Blue describes dives with an involved instructor, not so much an instructor just supervising the student diver. I am glad to dispute is about what happened, not how a student should be treated.
ggunn
February 8th, 2012, 08:05 PM
If the opening post is accurate, the instructor is fully at fault. The student takes priority, and a problem takes priority over continuing as though nothing is wrong. I'm totally with the OP on this one.
That is a very big IF.
deeper thoughts
February 8th, 2012, 08:08 PM
So, they weren't certification dives??? Wow and a half. So, in essence, you sent a private DM out for the new divers?
Wasn't "coughing" blood? (well, I suppose a little nasal drip my have been involved, but that's far different from "coughing" blood.)
Not 78 feet?
Yikes.
Thank you Deborah for addressing this issue.
-Blair
Unfortunately sometimes diving just isnt for everyone and there is not always a villain. Not taking sides because I wasnt there just adding my 1cent
vlkr
February 8th, 2012, 08:21 PM
is it possible that the instructor was merely telling the student that they were heading down, would wait for him there? why did the student feel he had to go down at the same rate as the other divers?
i do not dive with deep blue but i do know louis and deb so maybe i am just seeing it from their pov.
Ron Lee
February 8th, 2012, 08:35 PM
I wonder if the OP had his memory jogged by the two rebuttal responses. I may have to go to the PADI website to understand the elearning process.
Does the student get any pool work prior to going to Cozumel? I can see doing book work on line but how do you do all required pool work just prior to the first two checkout dives? Just seems odd if I understand an earlier post correctly.
Of course I do not twitter or use f*ceb**K either so I am be crotchety and set in my ways.
If I am being bad, you know how I should be disciplined.
ggunn
February 8th, 2012, 08:52 PM
I wonder if the OP had his memory jogged by the two rebuttal responses. I may have to go to the PADI website to understand the elearning process.
Does the student get any pool work prior to going to Cozumel? I can see doing book work on line but how do you do all required pool work just prior to the first two checkout dives? Just seems odd if I understand an earlier post correctly.
Of course I do not twitter or use f*ceb**K either so I am be crotchety and set in my ways.
If I am being bad, you know how I should be disciplined.Send me to Castle Anthrax! :D
Jackie
February 8th, 2012, 10:07 PM
Its unfortunate that anytime there is anything negative posted about any dive op or instructor, the poster is the one called into question and judged.
This board would be a lot more interesting and informative if people could give their honest opinions. Many do not as they rightfully, after years of watching the movie, know the ending. Anyone saying or implying anything negative gets judged by people who were not there and most likely have not even dived with the one in question.
It is just a matter of time before the pile on starts....
SCUBAPA75
February 8th, 2012, 10:30 PM
Its unfortunate that anytime there is anything negative posted about any dive op or instructor, the poster is the one called into question and judged.
This board would be a lot more interesting and informative if people could give their honest opinions. Many do not as they rightfully, after years of watching the movie, know the ending. Anyone saying or implying anything negative gets judged by people who were not there and most likely have not even dived with the one in question.
It is just a matter of time before the pile on starts....
Thats all fine and good Jackie. But I WAS there. I saw the whole thing as it unfolded. And I will be the first to stand up and tell Debbie that one of her dive masters messed up. I've done it before. This was NOT the case. Rafael did everything to help the poster to have a safe, successful dive. :)
SCUBAPA75
February 8th, 2012, 10:35 PM
is it possible that the instructor was merely telling the student that they were heading down, would wait for him there? why did the student feel he had to go down at the same rate as the other divers?
i do not dive with deep blue but i do know louis and deb so maybe i am just seeing it from their pov.
He absolutely did not. In fact the instructor stayed at the surface until he could get down on his own. I know because I was waiting at the meeting point on the sandy bottom for them. The instructor asked him MANY times if he was okay....and got the OK signal back every time.
DevonDiver
February 8th, 2012, 10:49 PM
Everyone including the Dr at the DAN clinic said it was "normal".
As the links to the Diving Medicine forum I posted earlier in the thread confirmed. :)
In your first post you stated: "He seemed uninterested and said it was "normal". Bleeding is not "normal" in ANY adventure sport." I am glad that you now have some peace-of-mind and can accept that sometimes new divers do experience a little bit of blood from the nose whilst learning equalisation and/or whilst the sinuses adapt to pressure changes. It isn't an 'injury' and no physical harm occurs.
I guess "normal" for a symptom of Barotrauma.
Firstly, lets be clear. "Barotrauma" means nothing more than 'Pressure Injury'. It's non specific. 'An injury caused by pressure'. A term that covers everything from a ruptured lung down to a tiny burst capillary in the nose.
Sitting here at my laptop, I could pinch my nose, blow real hard and cause myself a 'barotrauma'... specifically, I could damage my middle ears through over/forced equalisation. Water is not necessary. Likewise, on a dive, I can cause a 'barotrauma' to the ear-drum by not equalising sufficiently on descent. Or to my eyes, by not equalising my mask on descent. I could cause a 'barotrauma' to the lungs by ascending whilst holding my breath.
If you were 'coughing blood', then it was almost certainly a tiny amount of blood from your nasal sinuses that entered your throat as a post-nasal drip. You stated in your first post that it was "serious bleeding" - that was a gross exaggeration and painted a very unfair picture when compared to how the dive centre/instructor allegedly reacted to the situation.
We both agree that I probably caused the problem by trying to force my ears to clear at depth rather than ascend a bit to relieve some pressure, than try at the lesser depth.
Which concerned me, because your initial post was certainly casting a finger of blame at the dive instructor for your injury. As you later admitted, the dive instructor was on hand, supervising, and instructing you to equalise. Your initial post made it seem that the instructor was abandoning you, which was incorrect. The equalisation technique, as taught in your dive theory and confined training is to ascend and re-try. Thus, in this instance, I don't see how any blame is attributed to the instructor. He was observing and he was providing you with the correct feedback to resolve your problem.
Many commentators on this thread have leapt to a conclusion that the students was somehow 'abandoned' by the instructor. I'd suggest that the instructor was supervising correctly if, as the OP stated, he was on hand and in communication with him.
Your overall 'complaint' in this regard thus seems to be that the instructor 'didn't take you back to the surface'. That complaint is unjustified. Not many instructors would abort the dive and return to the surface as anything but a last resort to a persistent inability to equalise, especially on dives 3/4 of the course. At no point are students taught to 'return to the surface' as a method of dealing with the problem. Furthermore, repeated ascents/descents will actually put more cumulative stress on your ears/sinuses.
nodakdive
February 8th, 2012, 11:56 PM
Unfortunately sometimes diving just isnt for everyone and there is not always a villain. Not taking sides because I wasnt there just adding my 1cent
Thank goodness I clicked on "post quick reply", and somehow my message disappeared. Saved y'all from another wordy soapbox soliloquy. It was about 4 or 5 nice, fat paragraphs of what seemed to me to be very even handed explanation and rebuttal of what you quoted, deeper thoughts. heh.
In short, you're right, diving isn't for everyone, but in light of the new information we've seen from the dive shop in question, and a poster (ScubaPA75) who was on the boat and diving with the OP during the dive in question, what do you call it when someone, (the op), completely misrepresents the fact to the point of what appears to be fabrication?
What do you call it when they use this platform to mis-represent the truth and call the dive operation "sketchy" and "racketeering" and "unethical" and "not well established". It may not be villainous, but whatever it is, it's not good.
Had the poster been honest, and said "gosh, I just don't like them. I don't think others will either", it might have been acceptable, but if you're mis-representing and fabricating, it's something, and I think there's a legal term that escapes me, but again, it's not good.
I wasn't there either, and due to that fact I attempted to be diplomatic about the event. I eagerly await bvana1's counter to the light that's been shed by people actually involved, but at this point, it blows my mind that many people spent time calling out bad instructive practice when the guy wasn't on a cert dive. (according to Deborah Felixson's post). "abandoned his student", "took the student deeper than PADI standards on a cert dive", etc, and so on, and so on. Wow. I'm glad I'm not an instructor that bit into that post.
Btw, IF (that's the large size if) the OP's post had been truthful, in my non-professional opinion, it'd be noteworthy information. I can understand how a dive pro could read that and take issue. But, as I mentioned before, it surprised me greatly, as it bore no resemblance to the practices I've witnessed with that shop and it's employ. Ever. Point by Point, I've not seen what the OP claimed, just the opposite. But I kept an open mined, until now. Again, I do await the OP's counter to the Deborah Felixson post, and the ScubaPA75 posts.
Not trying to pick a fight deeper thoughts. I respect that you admit, as do I, that you weren't there. But in light of the new information, I can't condone the OP's statements.
Ok, 7 paragraphs, but they're skinny.... :)
-Blair
cvchief
February 9th, 2012, 12:38 AM
I wonder if the OP had his memory jogged by the two rebuttal responses. I may have to go to the PADI website to understand the elearning process.
Does the student get any pool work prior to going to Cozumel? I can see doing book work on line but how do you do all required pool work just prior to the first two checkout dives? Just seems odd if I understand an earlier post correctly.
Of course I do not twitter or use f*ceb**K either so I am be crotchety and set in my ways.
If I am being bad, you know how I should be disciplined.
If PADI released Elearning and it doesn't work, then we should blame _______
And yes Ron, you have and we know what you have earned:
115288
Quero
February 9th, 2012, 12:42 AM
Well I can see we have picked up right where the Scuba Mau thread left off.
:chairfight::popcorn:
People!
Please take a moment to read the sticky (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cozumel/410150-attention-cozumel-forum-members.html) at the top of this forum.
The Cozumel forum is a hugely popular one on SB, and you give your favorite destination a big black eye by your behavior here. It's actually more damaging than any single boat sinking or disgruntled customer review could ever be.
The moderation in this forum is getting tighter and tighter with each successive contentious thread. Patience is growing very, very thin. Forum bans are distinct possibilities. Go out and shovel some snow or something to get rid of all your pent up energy. Mellow out with a glass of wine in front of a fire. Go cuddle with your loved one. Do something so that when you come in here, you're not itching for a brawl.
cvchief
February 9th, 2012, 01:01 AM
Quero,
I appreciate your work, but can I get a little clarity? Do you mean that Zman's post is outta line or are you agreeing with him? Is the problem too many disagreements? If I am outta line, I give you permission to call me out and quote the problem so we all can better understand the issue. (Or maybe I am the only slow one in the class....)
Ben Prusinski
February 9th, 2012, 01:02 AM
I would have signalled to the instructor about problems equalizing and waited for the instructor to help me out.
Ben Prusinski
February 9th, 2012, 01:15 AM
Also, on Dive 3 my primary regulator seemed faulty and I had to use my "buddy's" the one with the longer hose.
At this point, it would have been wise to abort the dive and ask for a new regulator. Never dive with bad equipment as it is not worth losing your life over. As for the dive op, I am not passing judgement because I was not there but hopefully to the OP you have better dive experiences in the future and be careful! Never let a DM or instructor force you into unsafe practices. Even they can be wrong. Fortunately my instructors in the Dominican Republic were top notch and did a great job teaching me.
Quero
February 9th, 2012, 01:35 AM
Quero,
I appreciate your work, but can I get a little clarity? Do you mean that Zman's post is outta line or are you agreeing with him? Is the problem too many disagreements? If I am outta line, I give you permission to call me out and quote the problem so we all can better understand the issue. (Or maybe I am the only slow one in the class....)
Sure, cvchief.
I was actually using Z's post as an intro to show that our users are quite aware that this thread was already getting dicey; if it had been out of line, I would simply have removed it, as I have already removed several posts from this thread--posts discussing other users' personalities. I'm trying to nip this behavior in the bud before it erupts like one of Mexico's legendary vocanoes, and we can return to dedicating moderator time and effort to other parts of the board, not just Cozumel.
Karibelle
February 9th, 2012, 01:43 AM
I wonder if the OP had his memory jogged by the two rebuttal responses. I may have to go to the PADI website to understand the elearning process.
Does the student get any pool work prior to going to Cozumel? I can see doing book work on line but how do you do all required pool work just prior to the first two checkout dives? Just seems odd if I understand an earlier post correctly.
Of course I do not twitter or use f*ceb**K either so I am be crotchety and set in my ways.
If I am being bad, you know how I should be disciplined.
e-Learning is for the knowledge development portion only. The "book work" is done at home, online, at the student's convenience. Upon completion of the modules and the quizzes, the student gets a form to bring to the instructor with his scores. He can also be in contact with an instructor during the e-Learning process if he wishes to be. When he has completed the work, and is face to face with the instructor, the instructor will administer a "quick review" to identify any areas that may require further discussion.
No water work is included in the e-Learning program. The confined water and open water dives still need to be done in person. It sounds like those were scheduled over two days here in Cozumel, based on the owner's post.
kari
Sideways
February 9th, 2012, 01:56 AM
But Quero.... It's ALL about us!!! :D Just kiddin ;)
**waves at Kari :)
When I did my eLearning, I did the book online, then the pool (confined) and OW dives in Playa. I had an absolutely awesome Instructor.
DevonDiver
February 9th, 2012, 02:06 AM
I would have signalled to the instructor about problems equalizing and went back up to the surface even if he did not comply. Not worth risking destroying my health. Then I would have given both the instructor and the dive shop a few choice words in Spanish and reported them to PADI and DAN for unsafe practices. Sorry to hear you went through this ordeal.
Guess who read the first page only and then jumped in with a post ;)
Ben Prusinski
February 9th, 2012, 11:31 AM
OK sorry but I must admit to be fair to everyone I did say that I have not passed judgement on the dive op since I was not there and cannot make that call. Still, it sounds like a number of red flags went up that the OP should have caught and not kept diving. On the PADI forms we have to sign as new OW students, I think that there is a form that indicates that we are responsible for our health and safety as well and not to depend on the instructor or dive op for everything.
DevonDiver
February 9th, 2012, 12:59 PM
Ben, one of the issues with the rampant angst-ridden criticisms we sometimes see here on Scubaboard is that the issues weren't first raised with the dive op, either during the courses/diving or afterwards. If they are, and complaints still result, then they tend to be far more factual, clearer to understand and less 'dramatic'.
When I read the OP's first post, my 'cynic' node was engaged. I asked some questions and got little in the way of clear reply. Others seem to have put some clarity on the situation. Cynic node is still working fine, I think.
nimoh
February 9th, 2012, 01:22 PM
DD, I think you were right all along. Consider your cynic node validated :)
Christi
February 9th, 2012, 01:56 PM
Its unfortunate that anytime there is anything negative posted about any dive op or instructor, the poster is the one called into question and judged.
This board would be a lot more interesting and informative if people could give their honest opinions. Many do not as they rightfully, after years of watching the movie, know the ending. Anyone saying or implying anything negative gets judged by people who were not there and most likely have not even dived with the one in question.
It is just a matter of time before the pile on starts....
Have we been reading the same thread????
I would say that is is exactly the opposite (at least in this case). People IMMEDIATELY assumed that the perception/recollection/ "facts" were exactly as stated by the OP and jumped all over the shop and DM before hearing facts. I think Devon Diver did a fine job of offereing up alternative scenarios and possibilities as well as explaining that his PERCEPTION of danger may not have truly meant that he WAS in danger. New divers are nervous and scared to begin with, so things that are normal or SOP may be intensified by the new diver.
Also as pointed out by Devon Diver, during the OW dives, the student is to APPLY and DEMONSTRATE on his OWN the skills previously taught in the course. Yes, the instructor is still there to supervise and to be there in case anything goes wrong, but he is not to "hand hold". I was not there so I cannot confirm in fact what did or did not happen, but after hearing both sides and now knowing who the instructor was - the OP's version sounds less and less believable/accurate about the true events.
I am not saying that the OP was "lying" - but it did sound to me immediately as if some of the things he claimed were just way too out there to be true. Now that I know who the instructor was - I can recognize more discrepancies in the OP's post. Rafael IS IN FACT one of the most by the book instructors I have ever known. I have known Rafael for many years and he has ALWAYS been this way and still is...in fact I respect the fact that he stays on top of the standards and follows them religiously.
I find it very interesting now that the OP has not come back to the thread since his story has a rebuttle by both the shop owner and other divers that were on the dive. Also interesting, but not surprising that the grievance was aired FIRST on the internet and never to the shop/instructor being accused. That is very poor form and solves nothing.
nimoh
February 9th, 2012, 02:02 PM
I hope that if people stumble across this thread, they read further into it and don't avoid the dive shop because of the first post
Texas Torpedo
February 9th, 2012, 02:09 PM
I hope that if people stumble across this thread, they read further into it and don't avoid the dive shop because of the first post
Good point. Adding a direct link to the rebuttal post at the end of the OP's so members & guests don't have to wade deep into the thread to hear from Deborah / Deep Blue.
cvchief
February 9th, 2012, 02:49 PM
Have we been reading the same thread????
I would say that is is exactly the opposite (at least in this case). People IMMEDIATELY assumed that the perception/recollection/ "facts" were exactly as stated by the OP and jumped all over the shop and DM before hearing facts. I think Devon Diver did a fine job of offereing up alternative scenarios and possibilities as well as explaining that his PERCEPTION of danger may not have truly meant that he WAS in danger. New divers are nervous and scared to begin with, so things that are normal or SOP may be intensified by the new diver.
Also as pointed out by Devon Diver, during the OW dives, the student is to APPLY and DEMONSTRATE on his OWN the skills previously taught in the course. Yes, the instructor is still there to supervise and to be there in case anything goes wrong, but he is not to "hand hold". I was not there so I cannot confirm in fact what did or did not happen, but after hearing both sides and now knowing who the instructor was - the OP's version sounds less and less believable/accurate about the true events.
I am not saying that the OP was "lying" - but it did sound to me immediately as if some of the things he claimed were just way too out there to be true. Now that I know who the instructor was - I can recognize more discrepancies in the OP's post. Rafael IS IN FACT one of the most by the book instructors I have ever known. I have known Rafael for many years and he has ALWAYS been this way and still is...in fact I respect the fact that he stays on top of the standards and follows them religiously.
I find it very interesting now that the OP has not come back to the thread since his story has a rebuttle by both the shop owner and other divers that were on the dive. Also interesting, but not surprising that the grievance was aired FIRST on the internet and never to the shop/instructor being accused. That is very poor form and solves nothing.
Hearing people report back on your OP, I think you do more than simply supervise a diver in a class. To me, DevonDiver seemed to be saying, 'show up for your 4 checkout dives and we will be there watching you do it.' It sounds so formal, detached and less comforting.
Deep Blue in answering the charge, I think, is reporting a MUCH more involved instructor than a 'go along and watch' instructor. She didn't say what they gave was enough, she said they gave alot more attention than they were accused of. I think alot of nervous nellies coming for their four checkout dives need and want more than someone observing and grading them. From what I have heard, you give them that extra level of service. Maybe the book doesn't require that and maybe divers should be more independent and confident when they arrive to do 4 dives, but that isn't the case with the way the training happens in the real world is it?
kwinter
February 9th, 2012, 02:55 PM
Good point. Adding a direct link to the rebuttal post at the end of the OP's so members & guests don't have to wade deep into the thread to hear from Deborah / Deep Blue.
I agree. Most people don't read all the way through and just take the OP statement as gospel. In fact, that is my biggest problem with Scubaboard and why I don't read or post much. The OP posted less than 2 days ago. There are now over 120 posts in the 13 pages of this thread. And I'm sorry if this offends, but most of them were uninformed or ill-advised postings in a setting like this.
When I read the first post, I immediately doubted the "facts" as presented. Not because I am familiar with Deep Blue (although I haven't done any diving with them in a few years), but because it just didn't make sense. If something sounds ridiculous, it usually is. That doesn't mean it isn't true, but it should be viewed with skepticism. Ask questions rather than making judgements based on a new diver's very first post. The more someone berates and operator or instructor, the more skeptical I become that this isn't just someone with a grudge. Also keep in mind that being a brand new diver, the OP may be merely mistaken. The OP stated that he "signaled" to the instructor about his equalization problems. Why would people immediately assume that the communication was accurate? Maybe it was cynical, but I doubted whether someone just completing his e-learning course really knew or used the correct hand signals to indicate a problem. And this was confirmed by another person present who said that all she saw was repeated ok signals.
Also, please try to separate a captain from a boat from a dive operation from a DM from an instructor. There are good and bad ones of all these things somewhere. But if a captain does something you don't like, don't immediately tarnish the whole dive op. Same thing for the instructor. And I don't know what to say about Jim L. who paints the entire island of Cozumel as one to be avoided for OW cert dives. He is entitled to his opinion, which is probably based on a very few isolated incidents. Yet his prejudice is spewed all over hyperspace and people take it as gospel.
Folks, what you post online affects other people in ways you can't possibly imagine. The OP, bvana1, has no business diving because he is a known convicted sex offender and drug dealer. And if I had his name, I would post it here just so he can see what the power of an internet forum is. Maybe he could successfully refute it after 13 pages and 120 posts. But I don't think he would appreciate the vast number of people who would believe it initially. Thank you to the mods who put the link to Deborah's post at the top of the thread.
My userid is my name. I don't hide behind a disguise. I am not a sock puppet, and I will gladly sign this post.
Ken Winter
bvana1
February 9th, 2012, 03:02 PM
In response to Deborah (the owner of Deep Blue) and her post of over 800 words, the two words that I was hoping to see that were absent were "we're sorry". Seriously, all this could have been avoided had any member of her staff had just said "we're sorry you injured your ears". Hell, Gary could have easily sent a follow up email last week expressing some remorse and showing a little concern. "Are you ok? Hope you had a good time" etc. That would NOT have been any admission of guilt just I feel, good customer service. Obviously, my expectations are too high. Even when I was still in CZM I would drop by the office (I had no phone so I couldn't call Deb) and check in to update your staff with my status. For you to proudly say that you didn't charge me for a cancellation, that was big of you. Maybe, your staff should have shown prudence and said "you're not diving with us until your ears clear up" ?! Instead of reccommending I get Sudafed and nasal spray decongestant. This is just my opinion and have a different perspective of customer service. Since ear injuries make up about 1/3 of diving accidents or injuries I really wish the idea of "equalize often" had been stressed more but I also should have apparently been focused on that much more than I did that day and throughout my training. Another question to you Deb, in the E-Learning course a lot of time was spent on Dive Planning, Dive Tables and the RDP, why was it not mentioned and why was there no dive planning or any hands on review? Is this SOP? Seriously, I'd like to know. This morning I withdrew my complaint from PADI and have requested that my other posts be deleted as well. My apologies to you and R.
In response to scubapa75. I'm sorry my dive affected yours. I could tell you were irritated with my presence as soon as you new I was a newbie. We were discussing our dive background and training. I mentioned the E-Learning course I took, Not "bragging" just discussing. And if the E-Learning is so "pathetic" why does PADI offer it at all? I got 100's on most of the tests and 90% on the final. I felt I had learned the basics pretty well. "the beginning of both dives was me (and DON)...hanging out on the sandy bottom while you took 20 minutes to descend Then you blew through all your air in the next 20 minutes....while you were holding hands with the dive instructor because you were scared." A couple things about that. The idea that my oxygen usuage is any of your business is odd to me. If my dive negatively affected your's who's fault is that? I would be pissed too, but not at the beginner diver. Also, Rafael MADE me hang on to him so I could share his Oxygen. Good for him. "You should stay out of the water and off the island." Who the hell are you to say that you arrogant &*%?!
My point in starting this forum thread was to warn other newbies like me to be careful who they choose to learn to dive with. It sounds like in the court of public opinion here, I was the one at fault, should have known better and should have acted more professionally. I accept that. Again, had I known THEN what I know NOW everything, including the method of training I chose, I would have done differently. So If I could write the opening post again it would go like this...
New Divers Beware: Choose your Dive Shop Carefully.
Don't let what happened to me happen to you. I was finishing up my Open Water certification with a dive shop in Cozumel MX. I was on my "check out" dive in pretty deep water (Palancar Reef) and was having trouble equalizing my ears. Here's where I went wrong. Even though my ears were not clearing I continued to force them and continued the dive. At differnt points I signalled to my instructor that I could not equalize my ears. At other times they seemed "ok" and I signalled that to him as well. When we finally surfaced after the dive I coughed up some serious blood and my head was pounding. He seemed unconcerned and said it was "normal". Although coughing up blood (bloody nose) is not "normal" it turns out it's not all that uncommon either.
Regardless, after an hour we did another dive (60 ft.) so I could get certified. I should've probably refused this but I dove anyway. My fault. Same thing happened again. That was two weeks ago. I couldn't dive the remainder of the trip, because my ears hurt so bad and couldn't "POP" them. The dive staff and management offered no apologies or any words of regret. Still do this day. They just said "to take some Sudafed and decongestant". I went to the DAN clinic in CZM and the ear specialist said I had suffered Barotrauma.
My Ears are finally showing signs of improvement and I should have no permanent damage. I did however lose 3 days of diving that I'll never get back. There's two points to take away from this.
One: read/learn about equalizing your ears well and practice sound diving procedures regarding this. This is critical for all divers, especially new ones.
Two: Choose your dive shop carefully. They're not all the same. It's like one of the those office machines that does everything. Printer, copier and fax machine. It never does any of those all that well but it will do them all. In other words, some dive Operators excell in instruction. Others cater to the more experienced divers and act as a dive guide service providing equipment and specific dive site requests. Then there are others that try to do it all. I chose the wrong one. If you're learning to dive, learn in the states where there should be no language barrier and possibly higher levels of customer service. Get some references from people you trust, who know what they're doing underwater.
SCUBAPA75
February 9th, 2012, 03:21 PM
In response to scubapa75. I'm sorry my dive affected yours. I could tell you were irritated with my presence as soon as you new I was a newbie. We were discussing our dive background and training. I mentioned the E-Learning course I took, Not "bragging" just discussing. And if the E-Learning is so "pathetic" why does PADI offer it at all? I got 100's on most of the tests and 90% on the final. I felt I had learned the basics pretty well. "the beginning of both dives was me (and DON)...hanging out on the sandy bottom while you took 20 minutes to descend Then you blew through all your air in the next 20 minutes....while you were holding hands with the dive instructor because you were scared." A couple things about that. The idea that my oxygen usuage is any of your business is odd to me. If my dive negatively affected your's who's fault is that? I would be pissed too, but not at the beginner diver. Also, Rafael MADE me hang on to him so I could share his Oxygen. Good for him. "You should stay out of the water and off the island." Who the hell are you to say that you arrogant &*%?!
Actually, I was NOT irritated at all. I CHOSE to dive with you guys when I could have easily been on the other boat and went to the North side, which happens to be my favorite place to dive. I knew it would be a tedious dive. I WANTED to come with you guys. I love diving with new divers. It's fun to watch their reaction when they get into open water for the first time.
What I do NOT appreciate is the slaughter of both a good instructor and a great dive operation because YOU won't take responsibility for your part in the matter. Yeah, stuff happens. Not everyone has a great first OW dive. It takes time to become and experienced diver. But your posts were exaggerated, dishonest, and uncalled for.
What I should have said, was...if you are unable to dive safely and cannot assume responsibility for your own actions and your own diving, PLEASE stay out of the water and off the island. Nobody wants to see another diver injured or killed due to his/her own lack of the necessary skills to dive safely. Tons of other divers have done just what you did with Deep Blue and didn't have ANY issues. I hope you have a fantastic diving future with a company that is more suited to your desires.
betsyinczm
February 9th, 2012, 03:27 PM
I am an admitted "lurker" here but have read this whole thread with interest and some disgust.......so I will just make one observation.......bvana1----you got 100's on all your tests?........that's cool, but you posted this: ""The idea that my oxygen usuage is any of your business is odd to me. If my dive negatively affected your's who's fault is that? I would be pissed too, but not at the beginner diver. Also, Rafael MADE me hang on to him so I could share his Oxygen.""
You DO know that you weren't breathing OXYGEN, right??..........just askin'.
kwinter
February 9th, 2012, 03:27 PM
I got 100's on most of the tests and 90% on the final. I felt I had learned the basics pretty well.
Rafael MADE me hang on to him so I could share his Oxygen.
I think this speaks volumes about how much bvana1 learned through his e-learning course.
betsyinczm
February 9th, 2012, 03:30 PM
Hhaha........great minds, Kwinter!........and why does my info say "regular of the pub"????........huh?
bvana1
February 9th, 2012, 03:34 PM
I am an admitted "lurker" here but have read this whole thread with interest and some disgust.......so I will just make one observation.......bvana1----you got 100's on all your tests?........that's cool, but you posted this: ""The idea that my oxygen usuage is any of your business is odd to me. If my dive negatively affected your's who's fault is that? I would be pissed too, but not at the beginner diver. Also, Rafael MADE me hang on to him so I could share his Oxygen.""
You DO know that you weren't breathing OXYGEN, right??..........just askin'.
yeah, I know it's like 20% Oxygen. I misspoke. Ain't this horse dead yet? Feel better?
nimoh
February 9th, 2012, 03:39 PM
A lot of new divers mix up the terms "air" and "oxygen", let's keep it civil
ScubaSteve
February 9th, 2012, 03:40 PM
I think civility left a while ago. Now the only good thing to come from this thread will be popcorn.
nimoh
February 9th, 2012, 03:44 PM
I think civility left a while ago. Now the only good thing to come from this thread will be popcorn.
good point, will rephrase and say "let's keep it relevant"
Zman96
February 9th, 2012, 03:53 PM
Civility has left this section of the board. I think we all need a vacation. Anybody know where a good place to go is?
nodakdive
February 9th, 2012, 03:54 PM
yeah, I know it's like 20% Oxygen. I misspoke. Ain't this horse dead yet? Feel better?
Yes, you're quite close, about 95% close. The mix is actually closer to 21%, just like air.
-Blair
cvchief
February 9th, 2012, 03:56 PM
Civility has left this section of the board. I think we all need a vacation. Anybody know where a good place to go is?
El Moro, Cozumel, say next week?
Hank49
February 9th, 2012, 04:01 PM
I I mentioned the E-Learning course I took, Not "bragging" just discussing. And if the E-Learning is so "pathetic" why does PADI offer it at all?
I don't know what happened. I wasn't there obviously but I'm sorry you had such a bummer of a time.
I'm curious though. I haven't thoroughly read all these posts. You mention you did all the E learning, but did you have any open ocean swimming experience at all before these dives?
I've seen quite a few "newbs" in the sea and with waves and current it can be a little intimidating. Can you do the E course, get the confined water in a pool, then show up at a dive shop....where ever, the Philippines, Hawaii? and ask to be taken out for your four open water dives?
That's asking a lot from a dive shop who knows NOTHING of your water experience at all. Anyway....I was just thinking about all this....
Christi
February 9th, 2012, 04:02 PM
yeah, I know it's like 20% Oxygen. I misspoke. Ain't this horse dead yet? Feel better?
bvana - I respect that you had a horrible experience with your OW certification, however, that does not necessarily mean fault on the other's part (or anyone's part) and your caustic post did not strengthen your claim, it weakened it. You say that you accept responsibility for your part, but you litter the same sentence with vitriol and snide comments and turn around in the same paragraph and say that you have withdrawn your complaint to PADi and requested that your posts elsewhere on the internet be removed. You are all over the place! I suspect it is more to save your own butt now that a more realistic version of the truth has come out rather than apologizing to Deep Blue and Rafael now that the damage has been done. IMO, you are losing credibility with each post.
Trust me, I KNOW how bad an OW training experience can be - I don't think anyone's story can top mine actually, haha - and I lived to tell about it, and even ended up becoming a dive instructor and dive shop owner! In fact, it might interest Jim Lapenta to know that my truly life threatening 1st OW experiences for my referral dives was in Hawaii - the good ole USA.
This was many years ago:
My instructor took us from shore, on the NORTH SHORE of Oahu in Sharks Cove (this is where they surf - right near the famous Pipeline) - in March - with 7 - 10 foot waves coming in and a surge that went down 35 to 40 feet easily! As we dove along the shoreline I was knocked into sharp volcanic rock and even pushed by the surge into a "cave" (it was realistically about a 2 - 3 foot deep recess/crevice in the rock wall) and couldn't get out because of the surge! I had to grab onto rock and pull my way out - and guess what I did when I got out - I shot to the surface - which of course was WORSE from the waves crashing me into the volcanic rock wall like a rag doll not to mention the shooting to the surface. The instructor pulled me back down and swam while pulling me down to 40+ feet to get us out of the surge. My wetsuit was torn, I was bleeding, I was breathing heavy, and I was panicked! He did manage to calm me down, but we had to abort the dive immediately after because I was out of air. The instructor actually LAUGHED when we got back on the beach and told me "If you can survive through all of that, then I HAVE to certify you." Needless to say, I DID NOT finish my certification with that instructor and spent the rest of that Hawaii trip surfing instead of diving! It truly is amazing that I am alive! Trust me, my version of the events was MUCH more colorful and exaggerated back then because it was my perception. However, I do recognize where things went wrong and that we never should have been doing check-out dives in those conditions.
My point is that once you are a more experienced diver, you will look back and realize that many of the things you blame the instructor and the shop for are not warranted. You are asking them for an apology, but it seems clear that you did not complain to them while on the island - so just how and what are they to apologize if they don't even know. You had a barotrauma, but that truly is not their fault - and just for the record, even experienced divers can have a barotrauma from forced equalization or other accidents.
Fin59
February 9th, 2012, 04:06 PM
"This morning I withdrew my complaint from PADI and have requested that my other posts be deleted as well. My apologies to you and R. "
Just curious if you also asked to have your review of Deep Blue on Trip Advisor and wherever else you posted deleted, also?
I am glad your ears are better. Give them time to heal and give it another try. Go for more training if you need to.
Dirty-Dog
February 9th, 2012, 04:07 PM
I think this speaks volumes about how much bvana1 learned through his e-learning course.
Let's not blame the eLearning. I did the PADI eLearning. So did my wife. So did our friend Kim. None of us has any difficulty describing our breathing gases. Although Kimi does insist on calling her fins flippers, despite the imposition of stiff beer fines.
Book learning is book learning. Doesn't matter if the words are on paper or a screen. You get out of it what you put in. You develop questions and you ask. The idea that you don't get to ask questions with eLearning is ludicrous. You're still expected to do a knowledge review with your instructor.
Dirty-Dog
February 9th, 2012, 04:12 PM
El Moro, Cozumel, say next week?
What, is there a bottle of tequilla that you didn't finish off? Doesn't seem like you tom leave the job unfinished...
MMM
February 9th, 2012, 04:15 PM
bvana - I respect that you had a horrible experience with your OW certification, however, that does not necessarily mean fault on the other's part (or anyone's part) and your caustic post did not strengthen your claim, it weakened it. You say that you accept responsibility for your part, I suspect it is more to save your own butt now that a more realistic version of the truth has come out rather than apologizing to Deep Blue and Rafael now that the damage has been done.
My instructor took us from shore, on the NORTH SHORE of Oahu in Sharks Cove (this is where they surf - right near the famous Pipeline) - in March - with 7 - 10 foot waves coming in and a surge that went down 35 to 40 feet easily! As we dove along the shoreline I was knocked into sharp volcanic rock and even pushed by the surge into a "cave" (it was realistically about a 2 - 3 foot deep recess/crevice in the rock wall) and couldn't get out because of the surge! I had to grab onto rock and pull my way out - and guess what I did when I got out - I shot to the surface - which of course was WORSE from the waves crashing me into the volcanic rock wall like a rag doll not to mention the shooting to the surface. The instructor pulled me back down and swam while pulling me down to 40+ feet to get us out of the surge. My wetsuit was torn, I was bleeding, I was breathing heavy, and I was panicked! He did manage to calm me down, but we had to abort the dive immediately after because I was out of air.
I wonder why people find it so hard to apologize and especially on the Internet. It goes a long way to making people feel better on both sides of any issue. We actually had to PASS LEGISLATION at home in my old job so that health authorities could apologize to patients or their loved ones without it being considered an admission of guilt. a little "sorry" goes a
long way to patching up a relationship.
and heh. I dived in Oahu. Once. Nothing as dramatic as your experience although I did have another dive knock my mask off. just a boring dive on a cattle boat with a time limit and a million Japanese tourists with cameras. they must have been taking pictures of each other because there were certainly no fish. a large contrast to the Big Island where I had just come from.
robint
February 9th, 2012, 04:17 PM
I cannot tell you how many times I have seen students with my husband (their instructor) have a "moment" of sheer terror, and forget everything they have learned in the classroom (or e-learning course). It happens, they are students. It takes a long time for some people to trust the equipment and trust themselves to be safe, no matter what the situation..... THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF ALL THOSE SKILLS YOU DO OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!
I can tell you I was a horrible student... I didn't have equalization problems like the OP, but I had some serious attention problems that made my instructor want to strangle me underwater. She kept asking me to do a skill, but I was busy watching fish with my head on a swivel the whole time. It is funny now... but I was constantly smiling, giggling, flooding my mask by accident, clearing my mask, and then watching the fish again instead of her! When we got out of the water, after dive 2, my instructor told me she didn't have to get me to do any mask skills because I was doing them all on my own.
So back to the OP and their dives from hell.... well, both sides made mistakes IMHO. The instructor should have been with the student and not guiding other divers, but the student was panicked and not thinking clearly. I wish the instructor had grabbed the student, told them to calm down, gone up a bit holding on to them, to see if they could equalize, then decide what to do from there. It would have solved the problem most likely and then this thread would not exist.
The finger pointing will continue, I am sure... but there is plenty of blame to go around here.
robin
Ron Lee
February 9th, 2012, 04:29 PM
It has been over twenty years since I did my OW course. Best recollection is that it was classroom twice a week over three weeks. Pool work most or all of those nights. I wonder if doing the pool work (confined water?) all in one day works for everyone. Personally, I do not think that it would have given me the time to think about skills between pool sessions such that things become more natural.
I did not become the awesome diver I am today from the beginning. I had concerns about ear clearing. Breathing through a regulator was not natural.
It took time, more training and experience in a variety of dive situations to get to the point where diving is natural, comfortable and fun.
SCUBAPA75
February 9th, 2012, 04:31 PM
So back to the OP and their dives from hell.... well, both sides made mistakes IMHO. The instructor should have been with the student and not guiding other divers, but the student was panicked and not thinking clearly. I wish the instructor had grabbed the student, told them to calm down, gone up a bit holding on to them, to see if they could equalize, then decide what to do from there. It would have solved the problem most likely and then this thread would not exist.
The finger pointing will continue, I am sure... but there is plenty of blame to go around here.
robin
I agree with you. The thing is...bvana was HOLDING ON TO THE INSTRUCTOR almost the entire dive. They were diving arm in arm. Rafael in NO way abandoned him, not even for a second. In fact, its a darn good thing that the student that had taken all of training through Deep Blue (DON) went through both of his dives without a hitch. It would have been difficult for Rafael to have been able to handle TWO disasters. It's ludicrous to think that a new diver having issues would be abandoned or left on his own in ANY way. Especially by a dive operator like Deep Blue.
souljacker
February 9th, 2012, 04:35 PM
You got it... How bout Thursday? ;-)
El Moro, Cozumel, say next week?
Thalassamania
February 9th, 2012, 05:45 PM
... My personal approach is to empower students to grasp that responsibility ...
While I agree with you that one of the objectives of a class is to, "empower students to grasp that responsibility and apply it whilst diving," I also think that one of the duties of an Instructor is to keep the student from harm (and if that's, "molly-coddling," so be it).
If I aint equalizing by 10-15 feet I'm in trouble. I have to get it done by there or I will lock up for any deeper.
That is key, if one is using valsalva, then one needs to keep a very slight overpressure in the middle ear and Eustachian canals while descending.
Well, I do apologize ...
While there are conflicting descriptions and interpretations of what occurred, the key it reconciling the disparate tales into a coherent and sensible description of events.
I am Deborah Felixson, the owner of Deep Blue in Cozumel. ...
Now it’s a bit more fair to be the judge and jury….
Deborah
Thank you for your post, it is greatly appreciated.
It is unfortunate that people have ears that will not clear, but that is a fact of life. While the details of the stories conflict, the basic problem does not change or go away: a poorly planned and executed dive. Let's look at it for moment. Here we have an instructor with two students, one of whom is focused on a friend whom he is diving (as a buddy, at least in his own mind?). The instructor has a student who is having trouble clearing, but who is loath to complain (which I really don't get). So the most reasonable reconstruction of the facts is that the instructor was all too happy to continue on down and bring the group back together since the injured diver was not complaining very emphatically. The injured diver did not know any better and seemed to feel that staying with the instructor was the best idea. The other (non-injured) student and his "buddy" were annoyed and wanted to get on with their dive. This is an almost exact description of a problem solving dive that we present at ITCs. Acceptable responses on the part of a candidate are, in order of "correctness": to refuse to have the experienced diver along with the class; to have the students dive as a buddy pair and have the experienced diver be the instructor's buddy, in a "tag-along" mode; to "abandon" the non-injured student (signalling them to surface) while tending to the injured student. In order to fail the problem solving dive the candidate would have to make two compounding mistakes: permitting the student to buddy with the experienced diver AND not surfacing the diver with the ear injury. The reality of this situation, whoever, confounds the artificiality of the problem solving dive because we never considered that the student who was having trouble clearing would continue the descent.
At DaveDillehay...the instructor did not have divided duties...he had TWO OW students to check off. I was just tagging along with them and when they surfaced I joined the other group of divers on the same boat that had their OWN Dive Master.
No, the instructor did have divided duties because the two students had different objectives and that was amplified when one had trouble clearing.
If the opening post is accurate, the instructor is fully at fault. The student takes priority, and a problem takes priority over continuing as though nothing is wrong. I'm totally with the OP on this one.
Adam
Correct, the injured student takes priority, though that is (at best, IMHO) the third best solution.
He wasn't coughing up blood for Pete's sake. He had a nosebleed. Textbook reaction to over equalizing, especially on the ascent.
No, that was not a nosebleed, that was blood issuing from the nostril ... which has the same appearance, but can be a radically different thing.
He absolutely did not. In fact the instructor stayed at the surface until he could get down on his own. I know because I was waiting at the meeting point on the sandy bottom for them. The instructor asked him MANY times if he was okay....and got the OK signal back every time.
That is an error on the part of the injured student, however, the pain must have passed due to filling some of the Eustachian tube / Middle ear volume with blood.
As the links to the Diving Medicine forum I posted earlier in the thread confirmed. :)
In your first post you stated: "He seemed uninterested and said it was "normal". Bleeding is not "normal" in ANY adventure sport." I am glad that you now have some peace-of-mind and can accept that sometimes new divers do experience a little bit of blood from the nose whilst learning equalisation and/or whilst the sinuses adapt to pressure changes. It isn't an 'injury' and no physical harm occurs.
Sorry, I have to disagree. If the bleeding was in the area of the middle ear, "glue ear" with concomitant high frequency hearing loss is a real possibility.
...
Many commentators on this thread have leapt to a conclusion that the students was somehow 'abandoned' by the instructor. I'd suggest that the instructor was supervising correctly if, as the OP stated, he was on hand and in communication with him.
But (as I explained above) failed to plan and conduct the dive in the "best" possible way.
Your overall 'complaint' in this regard thus seems to be that the instructor 'didn't take you back to the surface'. That complaint is unjustified. Not many instructors would abort the dive and return to the surface as anything but a last resort to a persistent inability to equalise, especially on dives 3/4 of the course. At no point are students taught to 'return to the surface' as a method of dealing with the problem. Furthermore, repeated ascents/descents will actually put more cumulative stress on your ears/sinuses.
The student should have been taught that sudden relief after severe ear pain is indicitive of a problem. Perhaps this is not covered in the e-learning program?
...
Also as pointed out by Devon Diver, during the OW dives, the student is to APPLY and DEMONSTRATE on his OWN the skills previously taught in the course. Yes, the instructor is still there to supervise and to be there in case anything goes wrong, but he is not to "hand hold". I was not there so I cannot confirm in fact what did or did not happen, but after hearing both sides and now knowing who the instructor was - the OP's version sounds less and less believable/accurate about the true events.
The versions differ in some minor details (while it may be a technical standards problem, who cares about 60 feet vs 78 feet?).
I am not saying that the OP was "lying" - but it did sound to me immediately as if some of the things he claimed were just way too out there to be true. Now that I know who the instructor was - I can recognize more discrepancies in the OP's post. Rafael IS IN FACT one of the most by the book instructors I have ever known. I have known Rafael for many years and he has ALWAYS been this way and still is...in fact I respect the fact that he stays on top of the standards and follows them religiously.
Then I must suggest that Rafael, "find a new book," and learn a bit more about equalization and how to deal with equalization problems, both during the briefings and once underwater.
In response to Deborah (the owner of Deep Blue) and her post of over 800 words, the two words that I was hoping to see that were absent were "we're sorry". Seriously, all this could have been avoided had any member of her staff had just said "we're sorry you injured your ears". Hell, Gary could have easily sent a follow up email last week expressing some remorse and showing a little concern. "Are you ok? Hope you had a good time" etc. That would NOT have been any admission of guilt just I feel, good customer service. Obviously, my expectations are too high. Even when I was still in CZM I would drop by the office (I had no phone so I couldn't call Deb) and check in to update your staff with my status. For you to proudly say that you didn't charge me for a cancellation, that was big of you. Maybe, your staff should have shown prudence and said "you're not diving with us until your ears clear up" ?!
While I know that this is said (and done) all the time, it does cross a line into practicing medicine.
Instead of reccommending I get Sudafed and nasal spray decongestant. This is just my opinion and have a different perspective of customer service. Since ear injuries make up about 1/3 of diving accidents or injuries I really wish the idea of "equalize often" had been stressed more but I also should have apparently been focused on that much more than I did that day and throughout my training. Another question to you Deb, in the E-Learning course a lot of time was spent on Dive Planning, Dive Tables and the RDP, why was it not mentioned and why was there no dive planning or any hands on review? Is this SOP? Seriously, I'd like to know. This morning I withdrew my complaint from PADI and have requested that my other posts be deleted as well. My apologies to you and R.
In response to scubapa75. I'm sorry my dive affected yours. I could tell you were irritated with my presence as soon as you new I was a newbie. We were discussing our dive background and training. I mentioned the E-Learning course I took, Not "bragging" just discussing. And if the E-Learning is so "pathetic" why does PADI offer it at all? I got 100's on most of the tests and 90% on the final. I felt I had learned the basics pretty well. "the beginning of both dives was me (and DON)...hanging out on the sandy bottom while you took 20 minutes to descend Then you blew through all your air in the next 20 minutes....while you were holding hands with the dive instructor because you were scared." A couple things about that. The idea that my oxygen usuage is any of your business is odd to me. If my dive negatively affected your's who's fault is that? I would be pissed too, but not at the beginner diver. Also, Rafael MADE me hang on to him so I could share his Oxygen. Good for him. "You should stay out of the water and off the island." Who the hell are you to say that you arrogant &*%?!
...
Rashmon?
Actually, I was NOT irritated at all. I CHOSE to dive with you guys when I could have easily been on the other boat and went to the North side, which happens to be my favorite place to dive. I knew it would be a tedious dive. I WANTED to come with you guys. I love diving with new divers. It's fun to watch their reaction when they get into open water for the first time.
What I do NOT appreciate is the slaughter of both a good instructor and a great dive operation because YOU won't take responsibility for your part in the matter. Yeah, stuff happens. Not everyone has a great first OW dive. It takes time to become and experienced diver. But your posts were exaggerated, dishonest, and uncalled for.
What I should have said, was...if you are unable to dive safely and cannot assume responsibility for your own actions and your own diving, PLEASE stay out of the water and off the island. Nobody wants to see another diver injured or killed due to his/her own lack of the necessary skills to dive safely. Tons of other divers have done just what you did with Deep Blue and didn't have ANY issues. I hope you have a fantastic diving future with a company that is more suited to your desires.
I hope you now see the sort of problem that this kind of arrangement can precipitate and will, in the future, let classes be classes. Mixing objectives in never a good idea.
I think this speaks volumes about how much bvana1 learned through his e-learning course.
It would seem the section of equalization and procedures, at least, need revision.
A lot of new divers mix up the terms "air" and "oxygen", let's keep it civil
Yeah, but that's a mistake that no one whose had a course should make.
cvchief
February 9th, 2012, 06:06 PM
You got it... How bout Thursday? ;-)
Er, Wednesday, actually.
Gdog
February 9th, 2012, 07:34 PM
Dammit.....El Moro.....shrimp on a wire....stop it!!! Im stuck in rainy west coast washington!
nodakdive
February 9th, 2012, 07:37 PM
In yet another re-reading of the Deborah Felixson post and the ScubaPA75 posts (who was on the dives in question) I find myself really confused by this thread, in particular, by discussion that has followed those posts.
With all due respect.
1. All three divers were doing a fun dive. These were not certification dives. (some discrepancy here between the Deborah Felixson post and the ScubaPA75 posts.)
2. Bvana1 was briefed before the dive regarding equalization. (among other things)
3. Bvana1 was accompanied by the DM during his entire descent and thereafter.
4. Bvana1 signaled during descent that he was having eq problems, was assisted by the DM to ascend and re-eq, and signaled OK on subsequent descent.
5. Bvana1 did not exceed 60 fsw during either his first or second boat dives. A second DM was provided to ensure that neither he nor the other new cert exceed that depth.
6. Bvana1 says that he was "coughing up blood" (copious amounts?), though he was probably coughing blood due to sinus/ear barotrauma, not LOE or other reasons.
7. Bvana1 chose to do the 2nd dive and was not forced either verbally or under constraint to finish his certification as he was certified before getting on the boat.
8. Bvana1 did not address his concerns with his treatment by the Instructor/DM with the shop at the time, but posted his issues here without forewarning to the dive operator.
Maybe I'm missing something, but this as coherent, concise and sensible a description as I can come up with, taking into account the posts I've mentioned above, and the OP's post.
Why are some suggesting the instructor, who's practices have been substantiated by a well known and well respected 3rd party shop owner who knows the instructor, has failed his student? He wasn't instructing as far as I can tell. He was DM'ing.
I'm not trying to pick any fights, I'm just really confused at this point and can't make sense of the discussion.
Thank you in advance for any good explanation that can be offered,
-Blair
ggunn
February 9th, 2012, 08:03 PM
Its unfortunate that anytime there is anything negative posted about any dive op or instructor, the poster is the one called into question and judged.
Judged? No. Called into question? Absolutely. Sometimes a person gets their panties in a wad over a situation where they were in the wrong, and then they go onto public forums and try to extract revenge through slanderous discourse. It's happened, and it's happened in here.
When it looks like someone joins a forum for the sole purpose of posting a slam on a business, it looks suspicious to me. When a poster claims he is "warning" everyone about a business which is generally respected, it looks suspicious to me. When the behavior they are accusing the object of their ire of committing goes beyond how I believe a reasonable person would behave, it looks suspicious to me. When the OP becomes defensive or abusive when anyone questions him on things that don't smell quite right about what he is saying, it looks suspicious to me.
ggunn
February 9th, 2012, 08:10 PM
Sure, cvchief.
I was actually using Z's post as an intro to show that our users are quite aware that this thread was already getting dicey; if it had been out of line, I would simply have removed it, as I have already removed several posts from this thread--posts discussing other users' personalities. I'm trying to nip this behavior in the bud before it erupts like one of Mexico's legendary vocanoes, and we can return to dedicating moderator time and effort to other parts of the board, not just Cozumel. No one expects Popocatepetl!
Deborah Felixson
February 9th, 2012, 08:18 PM
Good point. Adding a direct link to the rebuttal post at the end of the OP's so members & guests don't have to wade deep into the thread to hear from Deborah / Deep Blue.
Thank you! so much for suggesting this and to the moderators for doing it. It puts me somewhat at ease about readers getting both sides of the story enabling them to draw their own conclusions from a more knowledgeable perspective.
Diver Kat
February 9th, 2012, 09:00 PM
Have to chime in ... after lurking since this thread began .... (and yes, I have read ALL of it!!!!) I've actually had the reverse effect expected .... I honestly think if I was looking for a new dive op, I'd be checking out Deep Blue. Having seen current divers talk about their experiences with DB, and seeing Deborah sign in and speak up - and do so as factually as she could and be professional - with the dive shops side of things, I've been pretty impressed.
As noted by so much of the ugliness in this thread (and others recently) it's far too easy to spout off on the internet, and far too easy to get caught up in it all. Seems we need an internet rule like the one when your mom would tell you to count to ten before opening your mouth .... maybe a 5 minute time out before hitting that 'Post' button ....:dontknow:
DevonDiver
February 9th, 2012, 10:03 PM
... the two words that I was hoping to see that were absent were "we're sorry". Seriously, all this could have been avoided had any member of her staff had just said "we're sorry you injured your ears".
I think that's a fact of modern life. It may be seen or worse, misused, as an admission of guilt by an unscrupulous party with an axe to grind.
In your initial posts, it seemed very clear that you were accusing the dive center for causing your injuries - through negligence and unprofessional conduct. If I were the subject of such accusations, I would be very careful about what I said to the accuser also.
You made accusations on a global public forum and sent them to PADI. It's not unrealistic to assume that you may also have been considering legal action.
I do understand how better communication from the dive shop may have averted some misunderstandings but I've also been on this board, and in this industry, long enough to have seen more than a few undeserved outbursts/assassinations on the behalf of customers - who also failed to fully communicate with the dive shop concerned, in an appropriate way, at an appropriate time.
If your concern with the shop was over 'customer service', then you certainly failed to make that clear in your initial posts. I, like many people, saw those posts as a very critical and damaging report about the safety of the dive shop, the lessons and duty-of-care they provided.
Maybe, your staff should have shown prudence and said "you're not diving with us until your ears clear up" ?!
Again, I see a pattern that reflects the abdication of personal responsibility. If you're ears were sore, then you choose not to dive. YOU choose. The dive centre has no real understanding of your health and fitness at any given moment. How can they be expected to make such decisions for you?
It'd be a sad world if customers turned up at dive centres to be told that they were "not diving with us" because of some potential symptom that a dive centre employee may, or may not, accurately recognize.
Would the same be expected at a car rental booth? At a fairground attraction? At a gymnasium? Would you expect staff to diagnose medical conditions and restrict customer access to services on that basis?
Furthermore, there is no necessity for medical screening for fun dives. Only courses are covered by this requirement. As a qualified diver, you are educated to dive only when fit and healthy to do so. Safe Diving Practices, which you are taught, reinforce that. That means, YOU make the judgement call. If in doubt YOU make the decision to seek qualified medical advise on the issue, relative to your intention to go diving.
Since ear injuries make up about 1/3 of diving accidents or injuries I really wish the idea of "equalize often" had been stressed more but I also should have apparently been focused on that much more than I did that day and throughout my training.
It's in the manual, the eLearning, the Knowledge Reviews, the quizzes, the exam... it's reinforced in confined water and open water dives.
If the concept didn't sink in, then I don't think the blame can lie with PADI, or the instructors.
Another question to you Deb, in the E-Learning course a lot of time was spent on Dive Planning, Dive Tables and the RDP, why was it not mentioned and why was there no dive planning or any hands on review? Is this SOP? Seriously, I'd like to know.
That's a fair point and something still to be addressed by the dive operator, IMHO. Dive planning is a stated requirement/standard on the dives.
How it is approached may vary from dive center to dive center. I've seen the dive planning given to students as homework on the night prior to diving. I've seen it done in communal groups on the boat or in the classroom. I've also seen instructors who sit back and see if students are pro-active in doing what they've been taught to do. I've seen instructors who do the planning, but brief the students on that planning as part of the pre-dive brief. It varies. I have also seen dive centers that neglect this aspect - where the instructor does the planning and a 'follow me...' approach is used. IMHO, that doesn't empower divers and may not satisfy PADI standards for the dives.
if the E-Learning is so "pathetic" why does PADI offer it at all?
Ker-ching!
I got 100's on most of the tests and 90% on the final. I felt I had learned the basics pretty well.
Did the 10% missed include 'equalizing often'? You stated earlier that this was not taught obviously enough...
My point in starting this forum thread was to warn other newbies like me to be careful who they choose to learn to dive with.
If it were, then I most certainly wouldn't have gotten involved. However, it was very clear that your 'point' was to discourage other divers specifically from using the named dive center, through the act of portraying that dive center as unsafe and unprofessional. Those were misguided accusations on your behalf.
It sounds like in the court of public opinion here, I was the one at fault, should have known better and should have acted more professionally. I accept that.
Scubaboard is a community. People have opinions and experience to share. I think, in general, we see allegations about dive centers as being quite serious - and worthy of investigation. Those involved in this debate have approached it with varying degrees of open-mindedness.
I didn't see you complaining about public opinion when initial threat respondents unquestioningly supported your allegations and leapt into condemnation of this dive center.
Had questions not be raised, nor other witnesses involved, then I seriously suspect you'd have been very satisfied with the thread. As it is, you've learned more, about both the diving aspects and the methods of investigating/raising complaint - and that's a great benefit from being on Scubaboard.
Again, had I known THEN what I know NOW everything, including the method of training I chose, I would have done differently.
Hence my advice to ask questions first, and only make accusations when you are certain of the facts.
I don't see why a mature adult should need to 'learn' the concept that it is unfair to make allegations, without having first ensured that those allegations were correct and reasonable.
..but if you did, then that's a positive result. :)
Deborah Felixson
February 9th, 2012, 10:38 PM
In response to Deborah (the owner of Deep Blue) and her post of over 800 words, the two words that I was hoping to see that were absent were "we're sorry". Seriously, all this could have been avoided had any member of her staff had just said "we're sorry you injured your ears". Hell, Gary could have easily sent a follow up email last week expressing some remorse and showing a little concern. "Are you ok? Hope you had a good time" etc. That would NOT have been any admission of guilt just I feel, good customer service. Obviously, my expectations are too high. Even when I was still in CZM I would drop by the office (I had no phone so I couldn't call Deb) and check in to update your staff with my status. For you to proudly say that you didn't charge me for a cancellation, that was big of you. Maybe, your staff should have shown prudence and said "you're not diving with us until your ears clear up" ?! Instead of recommending I get Sudafed and nasal spray decongestant. This is just my opinion and have a different perspective of customer service. Since ear injuries make up about 1/3 of diving accidents or injuries I really wish the idea of "equalize often" had been stressed more but I also should have apparently been focused on that much more than I did that day and throughout my training. Another question to you Deb, in the E-Learning course a lot of time was spent on Dive Planning, Dive Tables and the RDP, why was it not mentioned and why was there no dive planning or any hands on review? Is this SOP? Seriously, I'd like to know. This morning I withdrew my complaint from PADI and have requested that my other posts be deleted as well. My apologies to you and R.
Apology accepted. Thank you so much for realizing what an unfair negative impact your original post could cause, on such worldwide forums, and withdrawing them. Much appreciated.
We ARE sorry anytime our clients/friends have health issues while on holiday - we can all certainly empathize with that. But no, we do not follow up every time our clients comment about stomach problems, headaches, muscle aches, or other physical conditions after they leave here. I handle 20-30 divers a day - it would be pretty hard to keep up with all that. Sorry if you expected that from us and we let you down. Gary is pretty sure that at some point he said something like "sorry to hear that happened to you". Maybe the other girl behind the desk, being a woman, might've showed more empathy than old English Gary, who knows....
My staff are not doctors and cannot and will not make the call on whether anyone should dive or not. Rafael suggested you might take some Sudafed because you also commented that you were congested, but he strongly suggested you go to the DAN clinic and get checked out by a professional ear/nose/doctor which they have there, and you did.
Regarding the Dive Planning, dive tables and RDP, you were to have already covered that in the e-learning, and as you said yourself - you spent a lot of time in that. The entire "briefing" you got on the boat prior to the dive was your Dive Plan and more - let me jog your memory - started with the topic of the importance of drinking water before diving, going over all the hand signals in the water, and on the surface, the whole dive from beginning to end, the dive plan itself, starting with jumping off the boat, what to do on the surface, during the decent, the maximum depth, checking your gauges, ascent, safety stop, etc. etc. We happen to use computer gauges standard on all dives so you where taught how to interpret/use a dive computer, and upon your return you were instructed on how to log your dives. Was any of this missing? Rafael assured me he went over all of this. Do you disagree?
Thanks to all that posted here and helped you understand some things a bit better and inspired you to do the honorable thing by withdrawing your posts and complaint to PADI. I hope that this does not discourage you from diving again. I would recommend that when you do, you take a Refresher Course and go over all of your concerns with an Instructor.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with us and even though I do not feel responsible for it, I can very sincerely say that I'm sorry it happened and hope you recover fully soon.
Ben Prusinski
February 9th, 2012, 10:55 PM
Heck when I did my checkout dives in the Caribbean, I got lost learning to use a compass for navigation and was lucky to find my instructor and the boat! My instructor was puzzled and worried and we did a review of the basics and finally I got my navigation back. I realized ultimately its my responsibility and did not get mad or complain because I had to learn myself how to dive. Instructors teach and guide but in the end, we are to become self sufficient and responsible for becoming safe happy divers.
ggunn
February 10th, 2012, 08:57 AM
Heck when I did my checkout dives in the Caribbean, I got lost learning to use a compass for navigation and was lucky to find my instructor and the boat! My instructor was puzzled and worried and we did a review of the basics and finally I got my navigation back. I realized ultimately its my responsibility and did not get mad or complain because I had to learn myself how to dive. Instructors teach and guide but in the end, we are to become self sufficient and responsible for becoming safe happy divers.Any teacher will tell you that. A teacher's role is not to open your skull and pour the knowledge in, ready to use. It is to show you the way to learn things for yourself.
cruiser
February 10th, 2012, 12:28 PM
Any teacher will tell you that. A teacher's role is not to open your skull and pour the knowledge in, ready to use. It is to show you the way to learn things for yourself.
So true. A teacher's job is to "teach," and the student's job is to "learn."
bvana1
February 10th, 2012, 04:47 PM
http://youtu.be/ow2yZLSPtCc
Thalassamania
February 10th, 2012, 04:58 PM
Any teacher will tell you that. A teacher's role is not to open your skull and pour the knowledge in, ready to use. It is to show you the way to learn things for yourself.
So true. A teacher's job is to "teach," and the student's job is to "learn."
That's like saying that the contractor is not responsible for the quality of construction and the house that he builds. In my world (which is clearly different from yours) if the student has not learned, then by definition, I have not taught. My role is to do whatever it takes to assure that the learning objectives have been met, with some students who are self motivated and not phobic that can be very easy, with others it may take trying a number of different approaches, but in any case, the quality of students' performance at the end of the course is a reflection on me.
vrykolakas
February 10th, 2012, 05:17 PM
I am an admitted "lurker" here but have read this whole thread with interest and some disgust.......so I will just make one observation.......bvana1----you got 100's on all your tests?........that's cool, but you posted this: ""The idea that my oxygen usuage is any of your business is odd to me. If my dive negatively affected your's who's fault is that? I would be pissed too, but not at the beginner diver. Also, Rafael MADE me hang on to him so I could share his Oxygen.""
You DO know that you weren't breathing OXYGEN, right??..........just askin'.
this thread is funny...
markmantei
February 10th, 2012, 05:18 PM
“Day 1: Confined water dives 1, 2 & 3 and Open Water dives 1& 2. Duration =
5 hours. This is done at Villablanca Beach, about 1 mile outside of town, on
a very nice reef with lot's of coral and fish to see at a maximum depth of
30 feet. We do not do group instructions - we take a maximum of 4 students
per Instructor, and most of the time it's one or two-on-one with the
Instructor.
Day 2: Confined water dives 4 & 5 and Open Water dives 3& 4. Duration = 5
hours.
A little off topic, but is it standard practice to mix confined and open water dives? Should confined water dives (where skill should be "taught") not be completed prior to the OW dives (where skills should be demonstrated in real diving conditions)?
Mark
ggunn
February 10th, 2012, 05:25 PM
That's like saying that the contractor is not responsible for the quality of construction and the house that he builds. It's not like that at all. Construction materials are inert with no will of their own. I'm not saying that there aren't good and bad teachers, but if a student is disinclined to learn, the best teacher in the world won't make much difference. The learning process happens in the mind of the student and the student runs the process. Horse, water, drink.
Karibelle
February 10th, 2012, 05:28 PM
A little off topic, but is it standard practice to mix confined and open water dives? Should confined water dives (where skill should be "taught") not be completed prior to the OW dives (where skills should be demonstrated in real diving conditions)?
Mark
In locations where you can do OW right away, that's pretty standard practice. The skills that would be "evaluated" during OW dives would of course need to be preceded by the "teaching" of those skills in Confined Water. So you have to do the relevant CW session prior to doing the OW dives. Prerequisite for OW dive 2 is to have completed CW 1, 2 and 3, as is described in the "Day 1" plan above.
In Alberta (at least in Edmonton area), it's far more common to complete all the CW work prior to doing any OW dives as OW isn't as readily available. Having said that, we have had a few students doing a 6-week pool and classroom session where we went to the lake part way through to do OW dives 1 and 2, then again to the lake after completion of pool and classroom for OW dives 3 and 4.
kari
Hank49
February 10th, 2012, 05:36 PM
http://youtu.be/ow2yZLSPtCc
Does anyone really use Valsalva technique? I never realized it until I took the Performance Free Diving course, but I've always done the Frenzel technique (used by fighter pilots), using your tongue to force the air in your mouth up your eustachian tubes. Valsalva is hard and takes a lot more air....which isn't a big deal for bubble blowers but...
Karibelle
February 10th, 2012, 05:37 PM
Horse, water, drink.
Yes, but in that analogy, we "bring the horse to water." In one of the posts quoted above, the student diver was sent on his own to do navigation, and "was lucky" to find his instructor again. That's more like saying to the horse "there is some water around here."
OW students require "direct supervision" for most activities. Having said that, just because the student didn't know where the instructor was doesn't mean the opposite is true... but I don't agree that when students fail to learn things it is all their fault. I also think there is a difference between students engaged in training and certified divers. Maybe only a day or so, but one is a work in progress, and one is a "finished product."
WSOPFAN
February 10th, 2012, 06:42 PM
Quero,
I appreciate your work, but can I get a little clarity? Do you mean that Zman's post is outta line or are you agreeing with him? Is the problem too many disagreements? If I am outta line, I give you permission to call me out and quote the problem so we all can better understand the issue. (Or maybe I am the only slow one in the class....)
She is saying it's ok to debate ideas but it has been overflowing into getting personal too much as of late.
nodakdive
February 10th, 2012, 07:27 PM
Those of you that have been training people, and that's almost everyone in one way or another, understand that every so often you run into a student, or a trainee, or a customer that is capable of acknowledging their understanding of the concepts and can demonstrate their ability to apply the concepts, but aren't able to execute when it comes to actually putting the training and concepts to work on their own. It happens.
I'm working with someone like that right now. The kid spent many years in Iraq and Afghanistan and he's back home now. He was hired by the company I work for. Really, really nice guy. Trying his butt off to pick up my current line of work. I felt like Peppermint Patty for awhile because I had to keep explaining that he didn't need to call me "sir". Ya just wanna grab the kid and hug him. Though I don't think he's actually been diagnosed, if he's not suffering from PTSD I would be shocked.
In any event, the concepts have been explained and demonstrated, over and over. At the time, he gets it. He can apply the concepts and I make him demonstrate to me that he can apply the concepts. As soon as he has to do it "on his own", the bottom drops out. It happens. It's almost as though he gets it when the responsibility is not solely in his hands, but as soon as he has to do it on his own, he forgets everything he knew and was able to do the day before. I have begged him, for months now, to call me if he has the tiniest question about anything. "C, you can call me at 12am or 12pm or anytime in between. If you ask me about something we've already discussed, even if we've talked about it many times, you're not going to be bothering me. We can go over this and over this as much as you want and that's OK. I won't ever get angry or be disappointed. Please just call. About anything." Been begging him constantly and it has taken months for him to start doing so.
Is it my fault that he's able to demonstrate the understanding and execute it in front of me, but when the time comes he's lost, or is it his fault? I don't think it's either of our fault. It just is. Sometimes you can have a "student" that appears to get it, can demonstrate the understanding in front of you, but as soon as you move away from the specific task to something else, the information and the ability to execute the task disappears. It can be very tricky to teach someone like that, because you have every reason to believe that he "gets it", but when the rubber hit's the road, it's clear the person doesn't "get it". Sounds to me like ocean dive number one for Bvana1 was just such a situation. Deeperthoughts, maybe this is what you were referring to in an earlier post. Sometimes when communication fails, there is no real villain.
For the record, Bvana1, I appreciate, commend, applaud, and respect you for rescinding your complaints. Your original post would not have been my first action and the same is probably true for many others, but sometimes, especially in new frontiers, people make mistakes because they really don't know the environment yet. Anyhow, Thanks for stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing.
I hope the rest of your diving is without any problems. Long ago I was given some very sage advice, and I put it to use constantly, even to this day. "If you don't know, don't do. Ask."
Anytime I hear someone say "I'd rather ask for forgiveness than permission.", I cringe. LOL.
-Blair
Thalassamania
February 10th, 2012, 07:53 PM
It's not like that at all. Construction materials are inert with no will of their own. I'm not saying that there aren't good and bad teachers, but if a student is disinclined to learn, the best teacher in the world won't make much difference. The learning process happens in the mind of the student and the student runs the process. Horse, water, drink.I guess I've just never, in all my years of teaching, come across a student who met the course prerequisites but could not master the material.
Does anyone really use Valsalva technique? I never realized it until I took the Performance Free Diving course, but I've always done the Frenzel technique (used by fighter pilots), using your tongue to force the air in your mouth up your eustachian tubes. Valsalva is hard and takes a lot more air....which isn't a big deal for bubble blowers but...
As long as you do not exhale into the water Valsalva takes no more air than Frenzel, but it does permit mask equalization at the same time.
Those of you that have been training people, and that's almost everyone in one way or another, understand that every so often you run into a student, or a trainee, or a customer that is capable of acknowledging their understanding of the concepts and can demonstrate their ability to apply the concepts, but aren't able to execute when it comes to actually putting the training and concepts to work on their own. It happens.
I'm working with someone like that right now. The kid spent many years in Iraq and Afghanistan and he's back home now. He was hired by the company I work for. Really, really nice guy. Trying his butt off to pick up my current line of work. I felt like Peppermint Patty for awhile because I had to keep explaining that he didn't need to call me "sir". Ya just wanna grab the kid and hug him. Though I don't think he's actually been diagnosed, if he's not suffering from PTSD I would be shocked.
In any event, the concepts have been explained and demonstrated, over and over. At the time, he gets it. He can apply the concepts and I make him demonstrate to me that he can apply the concepts. As soon as he has to do it "on his own", the bottom drops out. It happens. It's almost as though he gets it when the responsibility is not solely in his hands, but as soon as he has to do it on his own, he forgets everything he knew and was able to do the day before. I have begged him, for months now, to call me if he has the tiniest question about anything. "C, you can call me at 12am or 12pm or anytime in between. If you ask me about something we've already discussed, even if we've talked about it many times, you're not going to be bothering me. We can go over this and over this as much as you want and that's OK. I won't ever get angry or be disappointed. Please just call. About anything." Been begging him constantly and it has taken months for him to start doing so.
Is it my fault that he's able to demonstrate the understanding and execute it in front of me, but when the time comes he's lost, or is it his fault? I don't think it's either of our fault. It just is. Sometimes you can have a "student" that appears to get it, can demonstrate the understanding in front of you, but as soon as you move away from the specific task to something else, the information and the ability to execute the task disappears. It can be very tricky to teach someone like that, because you have every reason to believe that he "gets it", but when the rubber hit's the road, it's clear the person doesn't "get it". Sounds to me like ocean dive number one for Bvana1 was just such a situation. Deeperthoughts, maybe this is what you were referring to in an earlier post. Sometimes when communication fails, there is no real villain.
Yes, there are people who simply can not learn certain things, more-often it is a matter of being unable to make the extension from the specific to the general and then down to a different specific, but usually this involves problems with their brain's executive function centers or phobia based panic responses. These are detectable and thus the problem is avoidable. In you situation, however, you have no control over who your student is, and you're right, the student may not be capable of learning what you have to offer. But I' suspect that if it were presented in a rather different fashion, one more suited to his cognitive process, he just might be able to.
Dan G
February 10th, 2012, 10:08 PM
In any event, the concepts have been explained and demonstrated, over and over. At the time, he gets it. He can apply the concepts and I make him demonstrate to me that he can apply the concepts. As soon as he has to do it "on his own", the bottom drops out. It happens. It's almost as though he gets it when the responsibility is not solely in his hands, but as soon as he has to do it on his own, he forgets everything he knew and was able to do the day before.-Blair
I see this all of the time in my classroom. Many students can demonstrate understanding when they know exactly the skill or problem solving strategy they need to use. When they are required to make decisions regarding which strategy to use, their proficiency level decreases, even when they have seemingly mastered that skill in a different context. These are often the same students who struggle to apply previously learned skills to a new context or synthesize their skills into new understandings. For example, a student can add and subtract fractions with regular success. If they are engaged in a contextual problem where they must decide if addition or subtraction will solve the problem, (rather than just being presented with numbers) I will sometimes see this very same student's ability to add and subtract fractions decrease. They will make errors in their computation that they would never make if the problem was just numbers on a page. This is why I always try to teach skills in context, rather than as pure algorithm. Then the skill is learned with the greater flexibility to use it in more applications.
It is the nature of learning as well as the nature of teaching.
Quero
February 10th, 2012, 11:35 PM
I see this all of the time in my classroom. Many students can demonstrate understanding when they know exactly the skill or problem solving strategy they need to use. When they are required to make decisions regarding which strategy to use, their proficiency level decreases, even when they have seemingly mastered that skill in a different context. These are often the same students who struggle to apply previously learned skills to a new context or synthesize their skills into new understandings. For example, a student can add and subtract fractions with regular success. If they are engaged in a contextual problem where they must decide if addition or subtraction will solve the problem, (rather than just being presented with numbers) I will sometimes see this very same student's ability to add and subtract fractions decrease. They will make errors in their computation that they would never make if the problem was just numbers on a page. This is why I always try to teach skills in context, rather than as pure algorithm. Then the skill is learned with the greater flexibility to use it in more applications.
It is the nature of learning as well as the nature of teaching.
In a way it is the nature of teaching and learning, but there's more to it because not all of teaching and learning has to do with the specific content of the course or lesson. Rather, part of teaching and learning is the development of critical thinking skills.
While it's too much to go into here, for anyone really interested in educational theory it would be instructive to spend a couple of hours searching and reading about Bloom's Revised Taxonomy. Essentially, this theory posits that learners progress through a series of stages in their development of thinking and reasoning skills and that these skills, when applied in a learning situation, facilitate learning. When critical thinking skills have not been developed, learners will be blocked from progressing in their ability to internalize the lesson or information they are presented with until those thinking skills have been developed.
Thus, in the example that Blair gives us of the young man he is mentoring, the learner appears to be "stuck" between the Understanding and the Applying stages, which are quite low on the ladder in terms of critical thinking. He will probably not be able to progress or function without direct supervision until he can perform higher level thinking.
Remembering: Recalls previous learned information. (Examples: Reciting a policy. Quoting prices from memory to a customer. Knowing the safety rules. Repeating the first rule of scuba diving: never hold your breath.)
Understanding: Comprehends the meaning, translation, interpolation, and interpretation of instructions and problems. States a problem in one's own words. (Examples: Explaining in one's own words the steps for performing a complex task. Summarizing the key points of a discussion. Explaining the cause and effect of pressure changes on gasses.)
Applying: Uses a concept in a new situation, or without prompting uses an abstraction. Applies what was learned in training situations in novel real-world situations. (Examples: Using an instruction manual with general information to solve an actual, specific problem. Using laws of gas physics to create a dive plan based on the diver's air consumption rate and the available gas in the cylinder.)
Analyzing: Separates information or concepts into component parts so that its organizational structure may be understood. Distinguishes between facts and inferences. (Examples: Troubleshooting a piece of equipment by using logical deduction. Recognizing logical fallacies in reasoning. Reflecting on the events leading up to a pressure-related injury during scuba diving and selecting which are contributing factors and which are not, e.g., in the OP's story, the difference between a 60 foot max depth and and a 70+ foot max depth in relation to his ear injury.)
Evaluating: Makes judgments about the value of ideas or materials. (Examples: Considers a number of solutions to a problem and selects one. Finds the right dive center to work with based on an individual needs analysis. During a dive, when confronted with an issue, acts rationally and pro-actively rather than expecting another to solve the problem for him.)
Creating: Builds a structure or pattern from diverse elements. Put parts together to form a whole, with emphasis on creating a new meaning or structure. (Examples: Integrating training from several sources to solve a problem. Using another diver's experience to revise one's own procedures in order to improve an outcome. Writing a post on ScubaBoard about techniques for effective ear clearing in response to a user's specific question.)
nodakdive
February 11th, 2012, 12:59 AM
In a way it is the nature of teaching and learning, but there's more to it because not all of teaching and learning has to do with the specific content of the course or lesson. Rather, part of teaching and learning is the development of critical thinking skills.
While it's too much to go into here, for anyone really interested in educational theory it would be instructive to spend a couple of hours searching and reading about Bloom's Revised Taxonomy. Essentially, this theory posits that learners progress through a series of stages in their development of thinking and reasoning skills and that these skills, when applied in a learning situation, facilitate learning. When critical thinking skills have not been developed, learners will be blocked from progressing in their ability to internalize the lesson or information they are presented with until those thinking skills have been developed.
Thus, in the example that Blair gives us of the young man he is mentoring, the learner appears to be "stuck" between the Understanding and the Applying stages, which are quite low on the ladder in terms of critical thinking. He will probably not be able to progress or function without direct supervision until he can perform higher level thinking.
Remembering: Recalls previous learned information. (Examples: Reciting a policy. Quoting prices from memory to a customer. Knowing the safety rules. Repeating the first rule of scuba diving: never hold your breath.)
Understanding: Comprehends the meaning, translation, interpolation, and interpretation of instructions and problems. States a problem in one's own words. (Examples: Explaining in one's own words the steps for performing a complex task. Summarizing the key points of a discussion. Explaining the cause and effect of pressure changes on gasses.)
Applying: Uses a concept in a new situation, or without unprompting uses an abstraction. Applies what was learned in training situations in novel real-world situations. (Examples: Using an instruction manual with general information to solve an actual, specific problem. Using laws of gas physics to create a dive plan based on the diver's air consumption rate and the available gas in the cylinder.)
Analyzing: Separates information or concepts into component parts so that its organizational structure may be understood. Distinguishes between facts and inferences. (Examples: Troubleshooting a piece of equipment by using logical deduction. Recognizing logical fallacies in reasoning. Reflecting on the events leading up to a pressure-related injury during scuba diving and selecting which are contributing factors and which are not, e.g., in the OP's story, the difference between a 60 foot max depth and and a 70+ foot max depth in relation to his ear injury.)
Evaluating: Makes judgments about the value of ideas or materials. (Examples: Considers a number of solutions to a problem and selects one. Finds the right dive center to work with based on an individual needs analysis. During a dive, when confronted with an issue, acts rationally and pro-actively rather than expecting another to solve the problem for him.)
Creating: Builds a structure or pattern from diverse elements. Put parts together to form a whole, with emphasis on creating a new meaning or structure. (Examples: Integrating training from several sources to solve a problem. Using another diver's experience to revise one's own procedures in order to improve an outcome. Writing a post on ScubaBoard about techniques for effective ear clearing in response to a user's specific question.)
Quero,
Thanks very much for this!! I'd just sent a couple pm's to people asking for a little help with this and to offer some more specific info. I didn't want to sidetrack anything in the thread or whatever.
I'll go look at the Bloom's stuff. When I read those 6 points it rang some old bell for me, but from who knows where. I'm not an educator nor in a line of work that would crossover. Not now anyhow.
Based on the above, I think you're right about where he's "stuck", at least right around in that Understanding/Applying/Analyzing ballpark. His abilities seem to fall in different areas depending on the specific task. For some tasks, he's able to apply, but can't do the analyzing. For some, he can analyze, but can't evaluate.
I'm a landman, and one facet of being a landman is "running title". You may already be familiar with this. Basically, we examine and report real-estate ownership. We look at all the deeds and other instruments which are put of record in a courthouse to determine ownership of the estates, specifically but not limited to the mineral estate. We also examine encumbrances associated with the land and minerals. Once we've made our determination of ownership/s and encumbrances, we create a report detailing this information and submit it, ultimately, to the end client, an oil producer. The oil producer uses this information to secure a lease with each mineral owner. The Oil & Gas Lease gives the producer permission (for a set period of time) to drill for oil.
(don't know if this is a better or worse explanation of the job than I sent in the pm's?)
That's what we're trying to learn and due to the nature of the industry the poor dude, as have all of us when we started, is put in a position of having to do all of this, nearly from day one. There are other factors, too, which I won't detail here, but the work environment isn't conducive, there's been a lack of consistency with his training and he's somewhat unwilling to express and resolve his frustrations among other things, if that's not enough. heh.
Anyhow, I really appreciate your help with this. I know all you Yodas are busy people with lots to do. I just wanna help the guy, and I'm all ears. (well, and more than a fair amount of mouth too, I guess.)
Thanks,
-Blair
Quero
February 11th, 2012, 01:49 AM
Blair, see if you can find an educational psychologist with an interest in vocational/technical education. Strategies for the development of critical thinking and reasoning skills include learning what sorts of questions to ask that will lead the learner to develop a broader repertoire of learning and problem-solving techniques. Sounds to me like your guy needs more than just a job, and furthermore that the job he now has requires all of the levels of critical thinking I described, which are clearly impossible for him to use. It may be a recipe for failure in the short term unless you can change his job to that of your assistant while the development of his thinking skills is being nurtured. Another SB leader with a lot of insight into the practical application of educational theory is boulderjohn. He's in your time zone (or close), so he may have some suggestions for resources or experts who can help you.
cruiser
February 11th, 2012, 11:54 AM
That's like saying that the contractor is not responsible for the quality of construction and the house that he builds. In my world (which is clearly different from yours) if the student has not learned, then by definition, I have not taught. My role is to do whatever it takes to assure that the learning objectives have been met, with some students who are self motivated and not phobic that can be very easy, with others it may take trying a number of different approaches, but in any case, the quality of students' performance at the end of the course is a reflection on me.
I bolded a few words above, and (erroneously) thought it was obvious that it was implied in what I said.
The distinction I was making is that a teacher can do everything within their power to "teach," but at some point, the student has to "receive" the information and process it. The teacher cannot do this for the student, no matter how well they've taught the subject.
boulderjohn
February 11th, 2012, 12:39 PM
I bolded a few words above, and (erroneously) thought it was obvious that it was implied in what I said.
The distinction I was making is that a teacher can do everything within their power to "teach," but at some point, the student has to "receive" the information and process it. The teacher cannot do this for the student, no matter how well they've taught the subject.
Perhaps you are saying this already--I am not sure because I have have spent umpteen hours teaching education and found people mean very different things by this.
I once saw a cartoon that featured a boy saying he had taught his dog to talk. When another boy tries to engage the dog in conversation but fails, the boy clarifies: "I said I taught him to talk--I didn't say he had learned it."
I have heard teachers say something that translates to: "I gave a good, solid lecture on the topic--it's not my fault that they didn't learn it. Learning is up to them." When my son's chemistry teacher told me that only 4 students had passed an exam on a topic critical to future understanding of more complex issues, I asked if he was going to reteach and retest. He looked at me like I was crazy. "I would never do that," he said. "I taught it, and it isn't my fault that they didn't learn it."
In contrast, other people have the idea that teaching means a continuous process of monitoring student understanding and adjusting instructional approaches to ensure that all students who are actively engaged in the process will learn it.
There is a big difference, and I can't ell from how you wrote the above what you meant.
VooDooGasMan
February 11th, 2012, 12:57 PM
When I was just starting school my mom taught me to read the last chapter first, so all school books I did and several times, by the time the class and teacher got there it was just a review for me.
The best time this came into play, english teacher handed out 1 sheet and said no ?'s and 5 mins to finish, the heading said, READ FIRST THEN ANSWER.
I read the bottom signed my name and handed it to the teacher, the whole class failed they began answering ?'s, on the bottom it said now that you read everything just sign and hand to teacher.
You do not have to be smart, just clever enough not to let teachers to fool you, info is out there and each individual has there own way of retaining it.
ggunn
February 11th, 2012, 01:39 PM
When I was in college the first time, I had an English teacher who had taken a course taught by Robert Frost, and he told us this story:
Frost had a very interactive teaching method; his classes were discussions rather than lectures and he gave no exams. At the end of the semester the dean of the college told Frost that he had to give a final exam so that he could assign grades.
On the day of the exam, the students came in to find a single question on the board, which was "What did you learn in this class?". That was the exam.
Everyone in the class sat there for a while puzzling over how to answer the question, but after a couple of minutes, one guy wrote something down, handed in his paper, and left the room. Frost looked at what he had written, chuckled, and put the paper away. This was driving everyone nuts, so someone asked Frost what the guy had written. Frost picked up the guy's paper, and read from it, "'Not a damn thing'. Hmm. He misspelled 'damn', so I'm going to have to give him an A minus."
Lorenzoid
February 11th, 2012, 02:00 PM
Regardless of the OP's particular experience--and I will defer to those with more insight and expertise--what struck me about this thread is the word "sketchy" that the OP included in the thread title. To call a dive shop "sketchy" based on a single negative experience is a bit of a broad characterization. I dove with Deep Blue for a few days and had a great experience. I chose them because they seemed to be a well-established shop with good reviews. I'm not bothered by the OP's opinion in the thread title that the shop put profit over safety in the instance he described, as everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to somehow include "sketchy" in the title based on that one instance seems ludicrous and unfair.
marymac
February 12th, 2012, 12:20 AM
-Sketchy- HAHAHAAAA ever been to Durango? Beautiful place with more self medicated population than most.. sketchy is verb often heard there.
VooDooGasMan
February 12th, 2012, 12:15 PM
bvana as far as deep blue and any shop, you are now introduced with the scuba world, you just try different ones and you will like some and hate some.
awap
February 12th, 2012, 12:28 PM
bvana - I don't think you understand. The issue is not that Deep Blue may have had some unsatisfied customers in the past. Most businesses have some unsatisfied customers in their history. You can't satisfy all the people all the time. The issue is in regards to your specific complaint. And the answer seems to be it was 0% Deep Blue's fault and 100% your fault. Your criticism of Deep Blue over your incident is totally unjustified.
You would do well to just let this thread burn out. Throwing fuel on the fire that you are standing in the middle of is not wise.
ggunn
February 12th, 2012, 12:59 PM
-Sketchy- HAHAHAAAA ever been to Durango? Beautiful place with more self medicated population than most.. sketchy is verb often heard there.
Can you use "sketchy" as a verb in a sentence for us? :D
ggunn
February 12th, 2012, 01:02 PM
bvana - I don't think you understand. The issue is not that Deep Blue may have had some unsatisfied customers in the past. Most businesses have some unsatisfied customers in their history. You can't satisfy all the people all the time. The issue is in regards to your specific complaint. And the answer seems to be it was 0% Deep Blue's fault and 100% your fault. Your criticism of Deep Blue over your incident is totally unjustified.
You would do well to just let this thread burn out. Throwing fuel on the fire that you are standing in the middle of is not wise.The first thing one should do upon realizing he has dug himself into a hole is to stop digging. :D
VooDooGasMan
February 12th, 2012, 01:10 PM
Soon the handle will break!!!!!!!
cvchief
February 12th, 2012, 01:11 PM
Can you use "sketchy" as a verb in a sentence for us? :D
"Hey is that guy an artist?"
"No, he is just sketchy..."
ggunn
February 12th, 2012, 01:13 PM
"Hey is that guy an artist?"
"No, he is just sketchy..."
Very punny, but If I remember my high school grammar correctly, in that sentence "sketchy" is a predicate adjective. :D
bvana1
February 12th, 2012, 02:01 PM
I uploaded this pic intending to poke fun at myself, realizing that I had stepped in it big time.
115595
dmoore19
February 12th, 2012, 03:06 PM
In the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Jessica Rabbit says "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way"
marymac
February 12th, 2012, 09:19 PM
Use in a sentence... Like, uh, that is sketchy dude.
ggunn
February 13th, 2012, 08:52 AM
Use in a sentence... Like, uh, that is sketchy dude.That's an adjective (predicate adjective), not a verb. Mrs. Hanchey (my 9th grade English grammar teacher) would be so proud of me. ;^)
Shepman
February 13th, 2012, 11:55 AM
That's an adjective (predicate adjective), not a verb. Mrs. Hanchey (my 9th grade English grammar teacher) would be so proud of me. ;^)
A "sketchy dude" is any older guy who would still wear tie-dyed T shirts.
This thread could be re-titled "Noob diver has tough time equalizing on C dive and gets bloody nose" pretty easily.
I always have some equalizing issues. Antihistimes always do the trick for me. I take some spray and pills in my dive bag in the dry box. If I have problems with the ears, I use 'em and it normally clears things up just fine.
For the bloody nose part, take a handful of sea water and wipe your face off before you get back in the boat. It looks better that way
nimoh
February 13th, 2012, 02:51 PM
That's an adjective (predicate adjective), not a verb. Mrs. Hanchey (my 9th grade English grammar teacher) would be so proud of me. ;^)
"that is sketchy, dude" is an example of a descriptive adjective. "that is one sketchy dude" would be an example of a predicate adjective.
I have been trying to come up with an example of using sketchy as a verb without any success, but not willing to concede that it is impossible though :)
Also, I have never been happier to see a thread get hijacked into a totally different direction :)
ggunn
February 13th, 2012, 07:27 PM
"that is sketchy, dude" is an example of a descriptive adjective. "that is one sketchy dude" would be an example of a predicate adjective.
I have been trying to come up with an example of using sketchy as a verb without any success, but not willing to concede that it is impossible though :)
Also, I have never been happier to see a thread get hijacked into a totally different direction :)I disagree. Your sentence "That is one sketchy dude" demonstrates "sketchy" as an attributive (descriptive) adjective, since "sketchy" precedes "dude" and modifies it. In the sentence "That dude is sketchy", "sketchy" is a predicate adjective because it is separated from the noun it modifies by the linking verb "is". See predicative adjective - definition and examples of predicative adjectives in English (http://grammar.about.com/od/pq/g/predadjterm.htm)
I can't come up with way to use "sketchy" as a verb, either.
:D
nimoh
February 14th, 2012, 01:33 AM
In the sentence "that is sketchy dude", "sketchy" modifies "that" and not "dude".
In order to make it modify "dude", the sentence would to be changed to something like
That is a sketchy dude
or
That is one sketchy dude
Darol
February 14th, 2012, 02:09 AM
Shepman said:
A "sketchy dude" is any older guy who would still wear tie-dyed T shirts.
This guy is "Sketchy" known to wear tie-dyed T shirts when he smokes weed.:hippy:
ggunn
February 14th, 2012, 08:53 AM
A "sketchy dude" is any older guy who would still wear tie-dyed T shirts.Hey! I resemble that remark! ;^)
ggunn
February 14th, 2012, 09:00 AM
In the sentence "that is sketchy dude", "sketchy" modifies "that" and not "dude".
In order to make it modify "dude", the sentence would to be changed to something like
That is a sketchy dude
or
That is one sketchy dude
Or "that dude is sketchy", but whether it modifies the pronoun "that" or the noun "dude", it's a predicate adjective since it follows a linking verb and modifies a noun or pronoun preceding the verb.
How many angels can dance on that pin. anyway?
:D
cvchief
February 14th, 2012, 09:09 AM
Why to I heard the sound inhalation and then the Gun saying this while holding his breath:
Or "that dude is sketchy", but whether it modifies the pronoun "that" or the noun "dude", it's a predicate adjective since it follows a linking verb and modifies a noun or pronoun preceding the verb.
How many angels can dance on that pin. anyway?
:D
I think it was more interesting when I imagined him doing that and saying:
Dude, it ain't sketchy; when you play the album backwards it says Paul is dead.
boulderjohn
February 14th, 2012, 09:40 AM
Or "that dude is sketchy", but whether it modifies the pronoun "that" or the noun "dude", it's a predicate adjective since it follows a linking verb and modifies a noun or pronoun preceding the verb.
How many angels can dance on that pin. anyway?
:D
This former English teacher declares Gordon the winner. Whether an adjective is a predicate adjective or just a plain old adjective depends upon the sentence structure. In this case, the subject of the sentence is "That." An adjective in the predicate of the sentence that describes the subject is a predicate adjective. The sentence pattern in this case is N-LV-ADJ.
Shepman
February 14th, 2012, 05:24 PM
Hey! I resemble that remark! ;^)
Took you awhile to respond, "Pop" Gunn!
ggunn
February 14th, 2012, 07:33 PM
Why to I heard the sound inhalation and then the Gun saying this while holding his breath:
I think it was more interesting when I imagined him doing that and saying:
Turn me on, deadman!
:D
Pelagicsal
February 14th, 2012, 07:44 PM
How about: I will sketchy that dude in the tie-dye shirt.
Yeah... they might take back my English degree for that one...
bvana1
February 14th, 2012, 08:35 PM
For the wordsmiths here, amused by the adjective "sketchy", I came across this today.
Moley's scrap paper notes from this session are sketchy, with lists of themes mentioned by FDR: "Money Changers", "the good neighbor", "disciplined action".
Taken from The Defining Moment by Jonathon Alter, page 208. Seemed relevant.
boulderjohn
February 14th, 2012, 08:40 PM
For the wordsmiths here, amused by the adjective "sketchy", I came across this today.
Moley's scrap paper notes from this session are sketchy, with lists of themes mentioned by FDR: "Money Changers", "the good neighbor", "disciplined action".
Taken from The Defining Moment by Jonathon Alter, page 208. Seemed relevant.
Main clause = Notes are sketchy.
Sentence pattern = N-LV-ADJ
Sketchy is still a predicate adjective/
ggunn
February 14th, 2012, 09:10 PM
For the wordsmiths here, amused by the adjective "sketchy", I came across this today.
Moley's scrap paper notes from this session are sketchy, with lists of themes mentioned by FDR: "Money Changers", "the good neighbor", "disciplined action".
Taken from The Defining Moment by Jonathon Alter, page 208. Seemed relevant.Who's Moley?
Pelagicsal
February 14th, 2012, 09:17 PM
For the wordsmiths here, amused by the adjective "sketchy", I came across this today.
Moley's scrap paper notes from this session are sketchy, with lists of themes mentioned by FDR: "Money Changers", "the good neighbor", "disciplined action".
Taken from The Defining Moment by Jonathon Alter, page 208. Seemed relevant.
I think we were amused by sketchy being identified as a verb.
ggunn
February 14th, 2012, 09:47 PM
I think we were amused by sketchy being identified as a verb.One false move and I'll sketchy ya'!
bvana1
February 15th, 2012, 11:32 AM
Who's Moley?
From Wikipedia: Raymond Charles Moley was a leading New Dealer who became its bitter opponent before the end of the Great Depression. He wrote the majority of Roosevelt's first inaugural address, although he is not credited with penning the famous line, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." He was responsible for FDR's use of the term "the Forgotten Man" in earlier speeches. He claimed credit for inventing the term "New Deal," though its precise provenance remains open to debate. Moley also wrote various pamphlets and articles on the teaching of government. Praising the new president's first moves in March 1933, he concluded that capitalism "was saved in eight days."
ggunn
February 15th, 2012, 09:00 PM
From Wikipedia: Raymond Charles Moley was a leading New Dealer who became its bitter opponent before the end of the Great Depression. He wrote the majority of Roosevelt's first inaugural address, although he is not credited with penning the famous line, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." He was responsible for FDR's use of the term "the Forgotten Man" in earlier speeches. He claimed credit for inventing the term "New Deal," though its precise provenance remains open to debate. Moley also wrote various pamphlets and articles on the teaching of government. Praising the new president's first moves in March 1933, he concluded that capitalism "was saved in eight days."
So, other than containing the word "sketchy", how is it relevant? I'm not saying that anything posted in here HAS to be relevant, but you said it "seemed relevant". How so?
Pelagicsal
February 15th, 2012, 10:37 PM
From Etymology Online:
sketchy
1805, from sketch + -y (1). Colloquial sense of “unsubstantial, imperfect, flimsy” is from 1878. Related: Sketchiness. (Ah! The noun form.)
*********
Sketchy seems to predate Moley by a good bit.
Qnape
February 15th, 2012, 10:50 PM
Holy Moley! Sketchy is as sketchy does. OK - so it's still not a verb, I know. A noun.
leslief
February 16th, 2012, 08:24 PM
The verb form would have to be To sketch. The implied use of flimsy materials or methods. Let's sketch this job.
ggunn
February 16th, 2012, 09:58 PM
The verb form would have to be To sketch. The implied use of flimsy materials or methods. Let's sketch this job.Yes, we know. :D
leslief
February 16th, 2012, 10:03 PM
Yes, we know. :D
Excuuuse me just trying to have a little fun with the word.
nodakdive
February 16th, 2012, 11:22 PM
Bob and Tom own a company which uses many suppliers. In order to determine which suppliers to use most frequently, they create 3 categories to classify their suppliers. Those that are always on time with the lowest price are classified as "Good". Those that are middle of the road in price and rarely make a late delivery are classified as "Doable" and those that sometime arrive early with the lowest price and sometimes arrive late with the highest price are classified as "Sketchy".
Chemco and Phlemco are new suppliers to the company. They've been delivering supplies to the company for 2 weeks now. Early Monday morning, Bob and Tom meet to discuss the new suppliers.
Bob says, "Well Tom, Chemco and Phlemco have each made 10 deliveries to us in the last two weeks. Chemco was only late twice and their price was right in the ballpark every time. Phlemco was late 6 times, but half the time they had the best price. Whaddaya say? In which category should I put each of these two companies?"
Tom replies, "Sketchy Phlemco and Doable Chemco. If Phlemco can start getting here on time, we can bump them up to Good."
-Blair
Gdog
February 16th, 2012, 11:31 PM
OMG>.......this thread has gotten sketchy as of late.
Pelagicsal
February 17th, 2012, 03:09 AM
OMG>.......this thread has gotten sketchy as of late.
As of late?!? I'd have to classify it as sketchy from the get-go! Even the very first word is Sketchy.
Well, okay... fourth word. Sketchy counting, you know?
boulderjohn
February 17th, 2012, 08:36 AM
Tom replies, "Sketchy Phlemco and Doable Chemco. If Phlemco can start getting here on time, we can bump them up to Good."
While as they use the words they do qualify as verbs, the more proper sentence would be "Sketchiate Phlemco and Doablize Chemco," thus converting the adjectival inflections to proper verb form.
:D
ggunn
February 17th, 2012, 09:03 AM
Excuuuse me just trying to have a little fun with the word.Hey, no offense intended. We have been bantering over "sketchy" for several days now ever since someone posted that they were seeing it used as a verb. What they obviously meant was they were seeing it creep into their local vernacular, though not actually as a verb, and we have been volleying wisecracks around about it ever since. I thought you were joining in, so I bounced it back to you.
Peace,
ggunn
February 17th, 2012, 09:05 AM
While as they use the words they do qualify as verbs, the more proper sentence would be "Sketchiate Phlemco and Doablize Chemco," thus converting the adjectival inflections to proper verb form.
:D
LOL. Literally. And I do literally mean "literally". :D
MMM
February 17th, 2012, 09:46 AM
To quote Bob Dylan, "To Everything There is a Season". I think the season is about over for this thread as it has gone far off topic. Time to shut 'er down. Thanks everyone for your contributions.
