Shout out to the everyone who dives Vista Point: Today was busy--lots of open water classes so the vis in the shallows was misty per se. However, the vis in the deeps was on average, 30-40 feet and the temps were 52 degrees.
With the water way up and the air temps busting 80's use of VP is way up. Today, a pair of open water divers debated removing an AL40 deco bottle tied off to one of the lines... at twenty feet. Luckily, I was still on the surface, heard the exchange between the divers and explained waht the bottle was down there for.
Please, if you are teaching out there mention to your students that the lines have a purpose and cylinders tied off are not abandoned--the bottles were prepositioned for decompression. Divers may also encounter AL80 stage bottles tied off along the wall in the range of 80-100 feet--same deal. They are not anbandoned.
The lines support tech dives into the canyons and walls beyond the recreational limit. So if you encounter a bottle tied to the line, it's because someone is out there and will be returning and needs the gas.
I realize not everybody who dives at VP posts here, but please pass the word around the shop and to anyone else who dives VP.
Thanks,
PD
Dive-aholic
March 6th, 2012, 11:39 PM
While that's a good thing to pass on...
Strange that they would be leaving decompression bottles behind in open water. That is not standard protocol. While we will drop cylinders in caves, that's because there is only one way back to the surface and we must pass by our cylinders on our way there. In open water all cylinders should stay with a diver because if something happens they should begin their ascent and not be trying to get back to a cylinder that was left somewhere. And there's also no guarantee that they will always make it back to those cylinders.
broncobowsher
March 7th, 2012, 10:39 PM
While that's a good thing to pass on...
Strange that they would be leaving decompression bottles behind in open water. That is not standard protocol. While we will drop cylinders in caves, that's because there is only one way back to the surface and we must pass by our cylinders on our way there. In open water all cylinders should stay with a diver because if something happens they should begin their ascent and not be trying to get back to a cylinder that was left somewhere. And there's also no guarantee that they will always make it back to those cylinders.
Praticing for caves where there are no caves?
Dive-aholic
March 8th, 2012, 11:07 PM
Then practice in shallow enough waters to not need a deco bottle. I lived in Arizona for almost 20 years and did a lot of cave practice in Lake Pleasant. I never dropped my deco bottle when I knew I was going to need it. Actually, I never needed my deco bottle in Lake Pleasant. There just isn't anything that deep in Pleasant worth decompressing for.
pdelannoy
May 15th, 2012, 11:13 AM
Hello Dive-aholic,
I see your posts quite often here on scubaboard and other forums. I know some of your students and they speak highly of you and I have the impression that your are really good at what you do but I don't appreciate the condescending tone of the two posts that appear above. First, what you call standard protocol isn't as straight forward as that-tec manuals, written history of diving (Andrea Doria and other east coast wrecks), and first hand accounts of divers I've met, suggest that the specific circumstances of a particular dive dictate the protocol. Secondly, your view of Lake Pleasant is fairly unimaginative-not surprising to me though since few divers see the lake as a major diving asset, and use the lake either to certify new OW divers or fin around for practice. I see it differently. There is a vast underwater world only a few hundred feet off of Vista Point. I have run primary lines into those places-walls and slot canyons all of which are beyond the recreational limit of 130 feet most of the year. Its worth it to me to do those dives.
I did my cave training with Greg Stanton and I feel well trained and have logged nearly 100 decompression dives in Lake Pleasant-all in side mount. There is somewhere around 4000 feet of primary line. So far only one other diver, a tec instructor who runs an LDS here in PHX, has joined me. We think its worth it.
Pete delannoy
Dive-aholic
May 16th, 2012, 12:35 AM
While you may see it as worthwhile, I'm still not convinced. I dive to see things, whether it's caves or wrecks. I've done over a hundred dives in Lake Pleasant, in various locations and to various depths. It's nothing but silt and old desert brush. Sure there were some areas that had neat features but most of the time the visibility didn't allow for much to be seen.
Anyway, that wasn't my point. My point is dropping a decompression cylinder somewhere such as Lake Pleasant is a dangerous practice. Pleasant isn't the Doria or any other wreck. It's a lake. There is no guarantee that you will be making your way back to the surface the same way you came and no need to if you can just ascend straight to the surface. Believe what you want to believe, but I stand by my statement that this is an unsafe practice. If you enjoy the dives, then by all means, do them, but do them safely.
Oh, and you are misinterpreting my statements. They are in no way meant in a condescending tone. But as I said, I see it as unsafe and I feel the need to state this.
AZTEK DIVER
May 16th, 2012, 12:54 AM
While you may see it as worthwhile, I'm still not convinced. I dive to see things, whether it's caves or wrecks. I've done over a hundred dives in Lake Pleasant, in various locations and to various depths. It's nothing but silt and old desert brush. Sure there were some areas that had neat features but most of the time the visibility didn't allow for much to be seen.
Anyway, that wasn't my point. My point is dropping a decompression cylinder somewhere such as Lake Pleasant is a dangerous practice. Pleasant isn't the Doria or any other wreck. It's a lake. There is no guarantee that you will be making your way back to the surface the same way you came and no need to if you can just ascend straight to the surface. Believe what you want to believe, but I stand by my statement that this is an unsafe practice. If you enjoy the dives, then by all means, do them, but do them safely.
Oh, and you are misinterpreting my statements. They are in no way meant in a condescending tone. But as I said, I see it as unsafe and I feel the need to state this.
Totally agree on all points.
pdelannoy
May 16th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Yea, sure. If the deco cylinder was arbitrarily dropped I would agree. But that's not the case.
TSandM
May 17th, 2012, 03:20 PM
I was always taught to keep my deco gas with me, anywhere where a direct ascent to the surface is possible. If there is some kind of urgency underwater that mandates a direct ascent from wherever you happen to be, and you don't have your deco gas, you're hurting. Caves are different, because in the majority of cases, there is no possibility at all that you will exit anywhere other than where you came in, so you can't face the "I need to get out NOW but I can't because I have to deco on backgas" issue.
On the other hand, if people are doing this to practice putting bottles down and picking them back up, in preparation for cave work, I'm all for it. I don't think you should ever learn anything in an overhead environment that you can learn and practice in open water beforehand.
Dive-aholic
May 18th, 2012, 12:55 AM
Yea, sure. If the deco cylinder was arbitrarily dropped I would agree. But that's not the case.
You're clipping off the cylinder and leaving it behind on an open water dive in which you will need the dive to complete accelerated decompression. That is against what is taught by all agencies.
Lynne, I agree with you. I practiced dropping and picking up deco cylinders in Lake Pleasant many times. But I always practiced this in 15-20' depth. The issue is they are doing this on dives where accelerated decompression is part of the dive plan.
pdelannoy
May 18th, 2012, 11:38 AM
Dear Rob,
Here’s the problem with your position. First, you responded to second-hand post made by another member of the board that reposted something I wrote somewhere else. You’ve made judgments about my dive procedures without bothering to ask or find out any details about what I’m doing. You’ve restated dogma. Your position is entirely hypocritical since in other forums you openly admit not following the rules yourself.
You openly admit solo diving, making visual jumps, and the fact that sometimes you don’t run a primary line from open water into the cavern to the main line of the cave. Here are the quotes from posts you recently made:
“ Close to the last dozen new caves (to me) have been solo. And almost all off the virgin passage I've been in has been solo”
“I found myself doing some simple visual jumps early in my cave diving. Nothing major, the most common was Double Lines passage in JB - visual to and from it. For those unfamiliar with it, it's a short bypass of the mainline. I'd take it on the way in and take the gold line on the way out. Then I started doing some other visuals in more demanding areas but again all circuit type stuff.”
“As for JB, I've done several hundred dives there. I dive that cave at least once a week. If I were ever to exit and find visibility completely gone I would deploy a safety to exit. I've practiced this to ensure I could get out. I don't deny this, even to my students. Yes, I'm taking a risk but it's a very calculated and thought out risk.”
My only point here is that you don’t always follow the rules as they are taught by the certification agencies-and you are an instructor.
Secondly, in another forum titled, ”Thanks to Ginnie Springs for recovering my stolen Deco bottle”, Jim Wyatt describes the loss and return of his deco bottle from the cavern zone at Ginnie. I found the posts in this section ironic, given your position here in this forum since there seems to be a problem with OW divers taking deco cylinders at Ginnie and perhaps, Little River. What I found most interesting was that no one suggested taking the bottle with them and carrying the bottle throughout the dive. Several divers suggested hiding their bottles-no one ever mentioned tying their bottle to the main line. In one case, a diver commented about hiding the bottle and in your response you joked about that. I noticed the entire absence of any sort of mention that this might not be a good idea since if the cave gets silted out, they might not be able to find their deco gas. You didn’t mention this to them…
You can’t have it both ways, Rob. Or at least, I’m not going to allow you to talk to me like I’m some sort of idiot and get away with it.
Lake Pleasant covers 10,000 acres and is 260 feet deep. If I choose to run lines, and create dives that have never been done before, that is my business. If I choose to dive those lines, holding to the highest cave training standards including the risks associated with those standards-it’s my business. This includes doing proper jumps at junctions, running a primary to my main line, tying off my stage cylinders and deco bottles-holding exactly to my training-that’s my business. If I’ve done all this so I can come to cave country and have a seamless transition to the real thing that is reason enough for all my trouble. And now, since the OW season is in full swing I have to deal with the possibility of losing cylinders-how I deal with that is my business. My risks are just as “calculated” and “thought out” as yours.
Peter Delannoy
Dive-aholic
May 21st, 2012, 10:58 PM
Peter,
If you're going to quote me then please learn what the rules are and do it in context.
There is no rule against solo diving. There never has been. Yes, I solo dive, quite frequently as a matter of fact. Many of the dives I do are actually safer solo than with a buddy. So what's your point?
I did some visuals early in my cave diving. That has been several years and before I was a cave instructor. I've learned from my mistakes and I no longer do visuals. Again, what's your point?
As for what I do in JB, I've already explained myself. Not seeing your point there either.
To suggest that cave divers keep decompression cylinders with them just shows your ignorance of cave diving procedures. You can try to twist my words all you want, but the simple matter is you are doing decompression dives in open water and clipping your decompression bottles off on the line and swimming away from them. Divers have died doing that. If you want to do it that's your choice but when I see someone post something like this I will post my thoughts on it.
PhxSki
May 27th, 2012, 01:26 PM
Not to change the subject however, I'm in full agreement with Pete in that Lake Pleasant is a real asset to recreational divers. On the other hand, I know divers who wouldn't get their equipment dirty diving in Lake Pleasant.
A few issues. First, when I tell non-divers that I dive the lake I always get a strange look followed by the question "... so what is there to see down there"? There's no question that it's not the ideal place to "see things" however, I explain that diving is just like any other sport, the more you do it the better you get at it. When on dive boats, you can always spot the warm water, vacation divers. They're the ones fumbling around with their equipment and, once in the water, unable to mainatin boyancy.
Second, if you're fortunate enough to have a dive buddie who has a boat and is willing to invite you and your fellow "Mud-Divers" along (thanks Mike), there are places in the lake that have great structure. About a month ago, prior to the water clouding, we dove the "1702 Wall" site which, at the time, had 60' to 70' visibility. Needless to saw, it was impressive to see the entire wall (approximately 100' from top to bottom).
Third, diving has a significant social aspect to it. Since I started diving, I've made a number of good freinds and acquaintances who I get to see on a regular basis at the lake.
Lake Pleasant may the a mud hole to some divers however, to me and my "Mud-Diver" buddies (i.e. divers who want to dive more than a couple times a year), it has been and will be a wonderful asset.
Proud to be a "Mud-Diver", Bill
Dive-aholic
May 28th, 2012, 11:22 AM
I agree that Lake Pleasant has a lot to offer for divers. I've done over 100 dives there and practiced lots of skills. I also knew a lot of divers and instructors who wouldn't even consider going to Lake Pleasant. I was briefly affiliated with a dive shop in Tucson that took several trips a years to Mexico for training. When I suggested they begin taking divers to Lake Pleasant because they might get some customers that might not have been willing to drive 6 hours into Mexico I was scoffed at. So my wife and I began taking our own students outside of the shop to the lake and were much more successful in numbers of students than we had been working with the shop. Lake Pleasant does have a lot to offer, but appropriate diving protocols still need to be followed.
richkeller
May 28th, 2012, 12:03 PM
I agree that Lake Pleasant has a lot to offer for divers. I've done over 100 dives there and practiced lots of skills. I also knew a lot of divers and instructors who wouldn't even consider going to Lake Pleasant. I was briefly affiliated with a dive shop in Tucson that took several trips a years to Mexico for training. When I suggested they begin taking divers to Lake Pleasant because they might get some customers that might not have been willing to drive 6 hours into Mexico I was scoffed at. So my wife and I began taking our own students outside of the shop to the lake and were much more successful in numbers of students than we had been working with the shop. Lake Pleasant does have a lot to offer, but appropriate diving protocols still need to be followed.
What locations would you recommend for someone diving the lake for the first time interested in sites above 60'?
scubajcf
May 28th, 2012, 04:36 PM
What locations would you recommend for someone diving the lake for the first time interested in sites above 60'?
Most shore diving sites at Lake Pleasant are good for beginners. The lake is a sloping shoreline. The easiest shore entry is probably Sunset Cove / Beismeyer Point. However, Desert Tortoise Road has an easy entry too. The biggest issue with both these sites are the heavy "day users". From fishermen to jet skis. Vista Point is a bit harder entry (and gets worse as the lake levels drop), however there are less "day users".
Sunset and DT have paved roads sunk under the water which makes for easy navigation.
My suggestion is, if you have not dove Lake Pleasant, go with someone who knows it well.
I dive up there at least two weekends per month. If you ever want to go up and do a fun dive, I am happy to go with you.
jcf
richkeller
May 29th, 2012, 05:17 PM
Most shore diving sites at Lake Pleasant are good for beginners. The lake is a sloping shoreline. The easiest shore entry is probably Sunset Cove / Beismeyer Point. However, Desert Tortoise Road has an easy entry too. The biggest issue with both these sites are the heavy "day users". From fishermen to jet skis. Vista Point is a bit harder entry (and gets worse as the lake levels drop), however there are less "day users".
Sunset and DT have paved roads sunk under the water which makes for easy navigation.
My suggestion is, if you have not dove Lake Pleasant, go with someone who knows it well.
I dive up there at least two weekends per month. If you ever want to go up and do a fun dive, I am happy to go with you.
jcf
From what I have read here so far about Lake Pleasant there does not seem to be anything to see at 100' that can not be seen better at 30' so I am planning to bring the minimum amount of equipment on the plane with me and renting either a 30 or 40 cu/ft tank to dive the lake and the Salt River. With this amount of equipment the shore entry will not be a problem so what is in the water at any given site would be of more intrest to me. If this trip pans out I would be flying in and out on a Saturday so Sunday 7/29 would be the only weekend day I could dive there. I would be interested in diving with you if that fits into you schedule.
PS: What kind of water temps can I expect to find at the lake and in the river at that time of year?
Jax
June 3rd, 2012, 07:27 PM
What locations would you recommend for someone diving the lake for the first time interested in sites above 60'?
What is interesting about the Salt river is that people come out from Phoenix, rent tubes, get on a bus, and tube down a few miles. Divers can also ride the bus. Divers will also go to Sheep's crossing and such. Divers look for lost stuff -- Some pretty neat finds can be pulled from the water. The Salt is about 20-30 feet wide and averages 4'-6' deep.
Lake Pleasant is behind a new dam, the old dam was blown through and still exists under the water. Some use it as practice tech dives, and pdellony has run some lines out a Vista Point, which, as I understand it, have been snagged by a few fishermen.
Also, there is a ramp and rail that leads down next to Vista Point - helpful to get through the "layers" of vis when it happens.
I still haven't found the treasure chest, though . . .
scubajcf
June 4th, 2012, 11:30 PM
Also, there is a ramp and rail that leads down next to Vista Point - helpful to get through the "layers" of vis when it happens.
I still haven't found the treasure chest, though . . .
The rail is North / NNW of Vista Point. The Treasure Chest is in about 90' sitting on top of the rail.
---------- Post added ----------
From what I have read here so far about Lake Pleasant there does not seem to be anything to see at 100' that can not be seen better at 30' so I am planning to bring the minimum amount of equipment on the plane with me and renting either a 30 or 40 cu/ft tank to dive the lake and the Salt River. With this amount of equipment the shore entry will not be a problem so what is in the water at any given site would be of more intrest to me. If this trip pans out I would be flying in and out on a Saturday so Sunday 7/29 would be the only weekend day I could dive there. I would be interested in diving with you if that fits into you schedule.
PS: What kind of water temps can I expect to find at the lake and in the river at that time of year?
Personally, I dive the lake all the time and enjoy the deep walls, the rail and several other spots in the lake that are sub-30 0r 40 feet. 7/29 is a bit far away. I think I will be in town, which means we will probably be up at the lake. Private Message me as the time gets closer and we can organize something.
Water temps in the shallows will probably be in the low 80's in late July.
AbyssalPlains
June 15th, 2012, 05:17 PM
This whole discussion is beside the point. The point is that if a diver comes across gas supplies tied off under water, leave 'em alone. Period. The purpose, protocol, intent of the dive and whether or not there is anything "worthwhile" to see is nobody's business except the diver who put those bottles there.
Dive-aholic
June 15th, 2012, 07:45 PM
The purpose, protocol, intent of the dive and whether or not there is anything "worthwhile" to see is nobody's business except the diver who put those bottles there.
I disagree. New divers read these forums and use them to learn. If a new diver reads this practice and thinks it's okay to do, he/she might go out and dive on a wreck and drop the deco cylinders on the line rather than carrying it throughout the dive. This is not appropriate and should not be encouraged.
ScubaSteve2000
June 22nd, 2012, 12:51 AM
First off, I want to thank Pete for laying all those lines. They are great nav aids. I have over 300 dives at Lake Pleasant; shore dives as well as boat dives, from one end of the lake to the other. In all seasons and conditions. I only mention this so folks know that I know a thing or two about diving at Lake Pleasant. I almost always see something new at the lake. It is in a constant state of change. Because of this the lake is a great asset for training. I doubt there is much in the relm of fresh water training that you couldn't do at the lake.
It makes sense for Pete to simulate cave diving at the lake because it IS like diving in an overhead environment. It can be very dangerous to just surface if you have a problem, especially if you're more than 100 yards off shore. Between the boats, sailboats and the jetskis you could be seriously injured. Your best bet is to solve the problem at depth or get your butt back to where you started your dive. Strong nav skills are essential (unless you run across one of Pete's lines :D)
Pete's exploration of the lake, to me, is what diving is all about. He's been to areas of the lake that no man has seen since the 1920s. He's just asking for a little cooperation from the local dive community to leave his stuff alone.
