Obtaining OW for the Blind

[zacharydavis08]

Howdy,
I'm new to these boards, but possibly someone can think up something I have not...

I'm totally blind, and I decided to get my SCUBA cert 5 years ago, because I'm into doing things of that nature, and also like doing things people say blind people cannot do EX: skydiving, etc.

I took the full PADI OW course, all the book work, watched the videos, did all of the pool dives, and then went to do my open water test dives. Just to find out that since I cannot see a compass, I wouldn't be able to perform the final test dive, to earn my OW... To say the least I wasn't very happy, because I'm not one to let my blindness be a barrier.

I ended up with a "scuba" certification, which technically states I have to dive with a dive master. I'm not intending to dive alone, but I strongly dislike the DM requirement. Not to mention, the prerequisite to all advanced and specialty PADI certs/training is having your OW, which I was unable to acquire. Before I discovered this lovely information, I had already set my sights upon one day becoming a blind dive master, not to actually teach others, but more for a personal achievement.

For the last 5 years I have been off and on trying to find anyone that could think of anyway possible for me to leap this one hurdle, that will at least allow me to advance in diving knowledge and certifications, even if I cannot actually attain DM certification one day.

If anyone has any ideas what soever please either post em here or drop me a PM.

Currently I dive either with full face masks, with integrated communication system, or just like other people, half-masks while just holding the arm or hand of my wife or another fellow diver. I've dove in different lakes across Texas, as well as with a German speaking dive club in eastern Germany, and have no problems...

It's very frustrating to have something as simple as 1 dive, because of a COMPASS, barring my path. Especially when I've met some people with their OWs that literally couldn't use their compass to get from point a,b,c because they were trained so poorly in its use.

I had a dive instructor contact PADI a year or 2 ago, to see if there was any sort of modification possible to the requirements, but they stated the "swim a straight line" etc navigation test had to be performed fully unaided.

Thanks for your help guys, I'm still determined to eventually advance somehow!

P.S:
If any people interested in diving blind etc have any questions, feel free to shoot me a PM as well.

Zach

[Doubler]

Try a different agency. PADI is one of several. Seems to me that there should be a way around this. So let me get this right the issue is a compass, which as you stated a lot of certified divers can't use, and PADI has no issue with you not being able to see your pressure gauge or depth gauge. That in it self makes PADI' s argument lame. IMO you should have a restricted OW cert, must dive with buddy. Sorry can't see how you could ever be certified as a DM. Good luck, contact Jim Lapenta maybe he can help or provide guidance.

[theduckguru]

Your post is thought provoking. While scuba is promoted as a buddy team activity, the truth remains that one has to be able to function solo if separated from their buddy - even if the buddy is a DM.

Do you have equipment that allows you to determine situational information such as depth, ascent rate, and air pressure audibly?

I applaud you for living life.

[Jim Lapenta]

I have the same questions? I see no way to ask what I need to without being politically incorrect to some. But based on your initial post I need to clarify some things. If anyone has a problem with my questions too bad. They are not meant to embarrass but to gain information. So here goes.

You stated that you did all the prerequisites. Ok fine. But how did you do them?

Are you actually totally blind as in can see nothing or legally blind?

Semantics here but did you watch the videos or listen to them? I need to distinguish this.

How do you monitor your depth and pressure now?

Did you do all the pool work including gear assembly by feel? If so good for you. All divers should be able to do this, yet some have cards who can't do it that have 20/20 vision.

I'm curious also as to identity of the slicksters that took your money for the class and did not tell you up front that your lack of sight would be a problem. That is just plain ignorant as well as greedy.

I just looked at the standards for the agencies I cert through and a navigation component is part of each exit qualification. No getting around it. Even though I know that there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of divers who can't do a basic reciprocal yet their instructor gave them a card. Where is quality assurance in those cases? It is only after they decide to take further training that they find out they got screwed by not being required to be competent in that area.

That said you do have other alternatives. Both SEI and SDI have programs for teaching divers with special challenges or disabilities. The Diver level definitions are similar with small differences. SDI calls this their Scubility Program

Essentially, unless you correct me otherwise since you got through all the pool training ok, from your initial post you would appear to be a level two diver. The definition of which is essentially that you can perform all physical tasks and handle emergency situations and in general care for yourself. However you cannot effectively aid another diver in distress because you could not see if they were. In this case you could dive with two unrestricted dive buddies. SDI requires one of them to be SDI Scubility Buddy trained while SEI does not since all SEI OW divers are sufficiently rescue trained in the OW class. SDI does not have the same level of rescue training in the OW class.

But you do not need to dive with a Dive Master. In essence if you have two buddies that understand your condition and know your limitations you can dive with them and no professional need be present.

The Handicapped Scuba Association has similar guidlines. They also provide training for buddies of disabled divers.

Now as to your aspirations of becoming a Dive Master. That opens a whole new area and frankly not one with much flexibility or options for you. A DM's primary function is to anticipate the needs of the instructor and assist in teaching classes. You would likely have a hard time here. Maybe not. But from first impression yes.

But not to despair. There are much better ways to improve your skills and knowledge than by becoming a DM. DM does not necessarily make you a better diver. It should but fact is there more than few DM's who should not have an OW card let alone a pro level cert.

SEI and NAUI have what are known as Master Diver ratings that are actual courses. Not a collection of cards that you pay extra for having them. SDI provides for you to gain other specialty ratings after the OW cert also under their special guidelines.

I could see with the right dive buddies and right instructor you earning these under the disabled diver guidelines. It would not be easy and the instructor would have to have the flexibility to do it correctly. But I think it could be done. You would need to have buddies who were committed and dedicated to achieving these goals. You and the instructor would need to work out some way for you to be part of the navigation effort.

Some skills would be very hard, perhaps not achieveable, but just the fact that you tried and did your best may mean more to you than the actual piece of plastic. Maybe even knowing that you were given the opportunity to try with your limitations would be worth it. I don't know. Only you can decide that.

But I would not give up. I would stay away from the shop that fleeced you on your OW though. And that is exactly how I see it. They knew your restrictions from the beginning and said nothing. That is not only greedy and unethical, but immoral as well.

[zacharydavis08]

No offense at all by the questions, IMO the only way to properly assess anything is through open communication.
I actually for fun "took three different scuba diving, semester long, courses while obtaining my BA at Texas A&M University. The school cannot actually certify you, but you do all book, movies, and pool dives, and then you go from their to a local dive shop, who you can pay to perform the open water dives with.

I Listened to the films, twice, since for fun I took initial scuba course twice, but they obviously didn't require me to do the book work twice, other than engaging in class discussions. If I had any questions, I would just speak up, and either fellow students or DM candidates would describe the visual aspect on the screen. I repeated it a second time, mainly for a good reason to get to dive twice a week, for an hour in the school's 20ish ft dive well, with free air.

I was actually put to use by the two PADI instructors, and multiple DM candidates, who tought the courses with the other students, etc.

The third course I took, even though technically I shouldn't have been allowed, not having the OW, was the search and rescue class. I was more of a useful prop in this class, but I did get to work with some of the actual aspects of that class.

So, I obtained my "SCUBA" cert, actually after about hm, 15 weeks, times 3 semesters = 45 weeks, times 2hrs weekly... roughly 90 hours of pool dive time.

I assemble all of my own gear, and I myself swop my reg hoses from my 1st stage, when switching my wife and my full face mask regs, vs normal ones.

By my second class at school, for fun, and also to help encourage the new class members, one of the DM candidates, would submerge, taking my weight belt, bc, tank, etc to the bottom of the well, and I would skin dive down, with the only assistance being if I didn't immediately locate my gear, he would nudge me towards it, and then I would assemble it, while using the reg, and then fully kit myself and continue about my way.

I performed the giant strides, off the low dive board, and the back roll entries, just like everyone else, without an issue, actually preferring rolling instead of the stride.

I have been unable to locate any form of talking dive computer, that would read out depth, pressure, etc. Hence why I never would dive by myself. I have hand signals regarding pressure, my wife/or other buddy, when they see me wave my SPG at them, read it, if we're not wearing the communication masks, they put a closed fist in my hand, representing 500, and then either use individual fingers per 100, or repeat the fist, say 4 times if the pressure is 2000. Depth isn't an issue, since I'm either holding their hand, tank, or they're floating within three ft of me, if I'm say, touching a wreck/etc, so I'm never "striking off on my own into the deep".

I actually prefer swimming through boats, like those at blue lagoon, in Huntsville TX, because for me, enclosed spaces are better, since it is a bit difficult to judge swimming horizontally, if not holding on to someone. But, enclosed, I only have X amount of FT I can drift up or down, keeping me at a semi-uniformed depth.

To the DM comment, I think you're right. I am more interested in the opportunity and skill/knowledge available to someone becoming a master diver, more than the actual card that states it, obviously I would strive to earn something that did state something of that nature, since I know how disbelieveing some individuals in this world can be.

I will look at those two programs you mentioned, as long as I can find something that would allow me to actually advance in my training/skillset I could care less what title that certification group has. PADI was what I initially was introduced to, which lead me to want to do the different certs like, boat diver, wreck diver, deep, cavern, etc, but there is obviously more options out there.

I hope my answers help you better understand, I guess my level of proficiency.

[eponym]

Zachary,

SSI (Scuba Schools International) has an Adapted Diver program that includes provisions for certifying blind divers. I earned the Adapted Instructor rating some years back from Stacey Minton at New Mexico Scuba Center (nmscuba@qwestoffice.net) and the course included work as/with a blind diver. Stacey wrote the book (literally) for the Adapted program. You could ask Stacey about certifications and advanced courses, or ask SSI directly (usa@divessi.com).

-Bryan

[zacharydavis08]

I will shoot them an email. My main interest is finding a school that will actually let me advance in training/take specialty courses, instead of just a gimp cert allowing me to get in the water, but nothing further.
Thank you for those email addresses. I'm researching SSI right now.

Edit:
Good lord, the SSI "escorted diver" is what they do with blind people... It says they require "3" additional divers to dive with the blind person... Talk about a pain trying to dive, if you have to find 3 additional people just to get wet. I was thinking that finding two would be a little challenging, and hadn't even considered three.

I wonder if I had that certification, if a dive park/lake would actually enforce the three diver requirement?

[mtabor]

Hi Zach,

Sorry to hear about all your trouble. I would cert you however your a little far from me :) I am in Europe heading to the Philippines next month.

Do check out the IAHD as well. IAHD (http://www.iahd.org) They do OW and specialties.

Good luck!

Mark
IAHD Instructor 30509

[pasley]

You started with the wrong agency. Over 30 years ago the Handicapped SCUBA Association International (HSA) was established as the first adaptive SCUBA Certification agency. Its missinon was specifically to teach and certify adaptive SCUBA divers. PADI and NAUI helped the HSA write their certification standards.

HSA certifications include Adaptive SCUBA Open Water and Advance Openwater. Depending on your demonstrated in water abilities they would cerrify you to either dive with a dive buddy, dive with two dive buddies or dive with a specially trained dive buddy (HSA Dive Buddy certified).

As part of my training as an HSA Dive Buddy and later as an HSA Dive Master then HSA Dive Instructor I assembled and dove in the open water (ocean off Catalina Island California) wearing a black trash bag inside my mask to simulate being blind. I have siince instructuted blind students and hope to have some vision impaired or blind students from the Long Beach Veterans Hospital newly opened Blind center in my next Disabled Veterans SCUBA Project (http://disabledveteransscubaproject.org)class. The head of the blind certer is a SCUBA diver who is blind.

DM? Keep in mind that the DM is a Dive Safety Professional whose primary duties are to assist a Dive Instructor, recognize when a diver is about to panic and to prevent that or to rescue a diver in trouble or to be a dive guide. Since all Dive Masters are qualified to do all the Dive Master Duties not being able to see well would be a siginificant obstacle. Not saying it can't happen, but do you really want to assume responsiblity for anohter divers safety with a vision impairment?

Visit www.HSASCUBA.com (http://www.HSASCUBA.com) for more informaion. I note there are two HSA instructors in Austiin and in Ft. Worth which might work for you.

[zacharydavis08]

Pasley,
Earlier I posted, DM was wrong... I was mentally thinking master scuba diver, and ended up doing dive master. Most definitely, DM would not be the wisest idea for a blind person to pursue, but master diver on the other hand, one would think should be possible, through enough work, training, and some adaptation. Thanks for your info.

[zacharydavis08]

Update,
I've sent inquiries to both a SSI dive shop about 35 miles from where I live as well as emailed HSA, asking whether either program offers the opportunity to obtain master diver cert, in their adapted programs.

*Crosses his fingers*

[MooreaMike]

I suggest contacting Jim Elliott of Diveheart. I am in process of training with Diveheart at an HSA instructor.

[flots am]

I took the full PADI OW course, all the book work, watched the videos, did all of the pool dives, and then went to do my open water test dives. Just to find out that since I cannot see a compass, I wouldn't be able to perform the final test dive, to earn my OW... To say the least I wasn't very happy, because I'm not one to let my blindness be a barrier.

The first thing you should do is go back to the place that trained you and demand a refund because they defrauded you. They knew from the moment you walked in the door that they wouldn't be able to issue you an Open Water C-Card, but they took your money anyway. It's not like you got to open water and they suddenly said "Oops! You can't read a compass. So sorry." You also can't read a pressure gauge or a depth gauge, and they knew that right up front.

This isn't to say that you can't dive, only that you were setup for failure by the dive shop.

Once you get a refund (or even without it if you don't care about the money), check into the HSA as mentioned in this thread. I don't think you'll have a problem getting certified.

Also, it's your life and only you can assess the risk. If you want to go diving with just you and your wife, and you're OK with it and she's OK with it, there's nobody in the world that can stop you. There are no SCUBA Police. Unless you're in France. Where they actually do have SCUBA police.

Go have fun!

flots.

[John C. Ratliff]

I've been reading this, and thinking and thinking about it. Underwater navigation is an interesting subject. Humans tend to rely upon sight, but what happens when sight is not there. It can happen in caves, which is why they always use ropes and cords to ensure they know they way out. The same goes for caves. NAUI had a publication out years ago about technology in diving, and I have a copy of it at home. In it the writer (there were different instructors for different chapters) who noted that reduced-visibility diving was any diving when the visibility was under six feet. Well, that's about all I do here in Portland, Oregon. And I do it in rivers, where there is current. So I have been thinking about this problem since the thread came out.

I have dived in zero-visibility diving. Two examples are diving for a shotgun in a dump; I did not find it, but it was feel where you go all the way. I stayed in my wet suit until I got to the apartment, stripped it off in the shower, and showered with Dial soap (which is antibacterial). My buddy did not shower right away, and got a boil from the dive. But this was gropping around with a buddy line, trying to find the shotgun. The second was a dive in a log pond to try to find a guy's dentures. He had been on the small boat, and had fallen into the water. He came up spitting and flailing (he did have his PDF on though), and spit out his dentures. I didn't find them, but was lined to the surface just in case.

Also, in the U.S. Naval School for Underwater Swimmers, we had to dive in the harbor in zero visibility with a buddy line and as a buddy team put together a piece of equipment out of a bag (we had the pieces, but had to fit it all together, a flange and plate with screws, underwater). So zero visibility diving is a definite skill which needs to be learned.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/USSdiverexiting.jpg
This is a photo of a diver coming out of the water in the harbor at Key West, Florida.

I have dived with a buddy line several times, and at one time it probably saved me and my buddy when we got rolled by a 20 foot wave that kicked up while we were diving.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/RockyCreek1.jpghttp://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/RockyCreek2.jpg
Our girl friends were watching, and took the two above photos (one before, and one after the wave). This was a 1/4 inch nylon line with brass snap hooks, and on a 2 inch nylon webbing belt for each of us. It allowed buddy contact throughout the experience. We were out for three and a half hours before the Coast Guard picked us up. Bruce, my buddy, lost his mask, and since he needed a huge correction to see he couldn't do much visually after loosing his mask.

So I'm wondering about the underwater navigation requirement for a compass. There are other means of navigating than by compass, and these include line diving (ask cave divers). I know it is handy, but many times I dive without looking at my compass at all. I do know that we had extensive compass work in the Navy too:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y76/yaquinaguy/TwoUSSphotos.jpg

So I'm just thinking out loud on this, and trying to "see" what can be done.

John

[tomfcrist]

Ok, your post is very thought provoking. Could you learn to dive and be certified as a diver that is dependant on a buddy/dive pro? Yes. Can you be a divemaster? I honestly dont see how.

I applaud you for trying new things and striving to participate in sports that some say is impossible, but my question is: Are you doing this to get enjoyment out of the sport, or to do it in spite of the naysayers? There is no possible way you could perform the duties of a DM competently, but i dont see an issue with you learning the responsibilites, liabilities and skills required to become one.

[zacharydavis08]

Sorry, I really should just go edit that initial post that says dive master... It should be to me wanting to get master scuba diver certified, not "instructor" level of dive master.

I want to be able to expand my knowledge, under water proficiency, and under water experiences through taking the courses, learning the information, gaining the confidence, and getting to enjoy a variety of types of specialty diving, that you have the chance of doing when obtaining a master scuba cert.

If I could buddy up with a DM, or some other highly certified pro, that would dedicate the time and what not, to "do the classes" unofficially that I would do if becoming a master diver, to teach and work with me on all of the abilities that I could do if I was not blind, leaving me with everything except for the certification, I would definitely jump on that, because it would accomplish 90% of my goals.

But, if it would be possible to do all of the above, in some official form, which would allow me to actually earn the certifications that would back the blind guy who's stating he's been trained in wreck/cave diving etc, that would fulfill that final 10% of my dreams.

Besides, what person would actually volunteer that many hours of their life, to do all of that training/class type work, for free, when they could be making hundreds of dollars doing it officially. On the flipside, I also would not feel very inclined to fork out thousands of dollars in "unofficial" course feas, to obtain the training/knowledge to not even have the tangible cert to validate my own training.

Hopefully that helps you more understand where I'm at, and what reasons are driving me to want to further my own diving experience/interest.

Finally, on some level I'll admit it, when I hear I can't do something it does encourage me to want to do it even more, because of that negative response. My profession is a transition counselor, for the Texas division for blind services, and I'm supposed to dedicate 40-50hrs a week working with blind kids ages 10-24, helping them realize the world is out their for them to take on, helping them become adjusted to their blindness... It just still frustrates me when barriers of this type arise, when logically there is perfectly reasonable ways around the stated issues. It's not like I'm in the DPS office raging to be allowed to try and earn a driver's license. I am simply wanting the chance to further my personal diving experience and knowledge, with the understanding that obviously I would never be doing this alone, and I'm being barred from progressing because I cannot do a task as basic as see a compass screen.

Seriously though, I've not yet decided to spend the money/risk ruining my phone, due to a faulty "water proof" case, but my final attempt will be purchasing a water proof iPhone case. Since the compass feature on the phone does not actually require data/cell service, I'm thinking there is a chance that one feature could work under water. If I purchase one of the waterproof cases, with water proof headphones, and use voice over (the iPhone's screen reading software), there is a chance I could perform the idiotic straight line navigational swim, my wife was required to do to pass her test.

Problems:
The iPhone might or might not be able to withstand pressure at 20-30 depth
The case could leak, ruining my phone
the compass actually can't work under water
The compass/voice over might not be able to auto announce course changes fast enough for me to successfully get the 25 ft from A-B

But, for all I know all of those problems listed above might end up not being an issue, and I could make that one swim. Then it would be quite interesting to see what reason PADI then would give to prevent me from earning the OW, since the only reason I was given that stopped me was the inability to perform that navigational straight line compass swim.

Sorry for the rant, it's still a sensative topic. LOL, the DM that certified my wife, had them swim like 30ft, at 20 depth, in water where they could actually see their destination saying, "now, use your compass don't look ahead of you at the destination to get there"... We'll see when I get stupid enough to finally try my phone.

[JIsgren]

This guy is putting together a way to use your iPhone as a dive computer. Maybe he can help with your quest for an audio compass.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6234655

In fact wouldn't it be cool if you could get the iPhone to read audibly all of the info on the computer. That way you could hear current depth, NDL, dive time, temp, compass. Another possibility would be to have an audio tone that changes pitch based on ascent/descent rate like they use in sail planes.

[mtabor]

Hi again Zach,

You will have to forget about PADI I think. Most if not all instructors will not cert you based on the fact you can not meet certain requirements of the course. You will have to talk to either, The Handicapped Scuba Association, Disabled Divers International, or The International Association of Handicapped Divers. They all have programs to help you achieve your goals and dreams.

I know what you mean by hearing you can not do something and wanting to do it even more. My wife is paraplagic in a wheelchair and she has cert from the HSA and PADI AOW so it can be done. She rarely takes no for an answer hah.

I would call or email the local IAHD branch near you to discuss this. Here is the toll free number for IAHD Americas 866-685-4243 and the email address is info@iahd-americas.org

Good luck and post back soon!

Mark

[MindeeO]

Mark, I just posted a thread soliciting comparisons of PADI and HSA. I'd be very interested in your, and also your wife's, opinion on the topic. (Sorry for the tangent in this thread!).

[flots am]

Seriously though, I've not yet decided to spend the money/risk ruining my phone, due to a faulty "water proof" case, but my final attempt will be purchasing a water proof iPhone case. Since the compass feature on the phone does not actually require data/cell service, I'm thinking there is a chance that one feature could work under water. If I purchase one of the waterproof cases, with water proof headphones, and use voice over (the iPhone's screen reading software), there is a chance I could perform the idiotic straight line navigational swim, my wife was required to do to pass her test.


You might do better with a cheaper phone in a waterproof box, with no holes for anything. Holes will eventually leak.

Also, I'm sure there are electronics guy that would love to work on an interesting project like that, and could probably build one with something much less expensive than a phone.

flots.