Where can someone get advanced training?

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haumana ronin

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Let me start by saying I hope this is not the start of the Rescue or not, DM or not, DM vs MD, which standard course, GUE or not, tech or not, or PADI vs whoever thread...

So in the mostly lurking I do in this forum, I see the recurring idea that new divers want to get to DM to become a better and safer diver. Then of course, the answer comes back that a DM cert is not the way to do that, that rescue and getting a few choice certifications that would be better for learning. But then in other threads there are complaints about the quality and depth of these classes, a lot of times by the same people. And often the answer "just dive more" comes up. But there are a lot of things divers do not know that they do not know, so they can really ask about them, and cant get better/safer. They may not known that there was a problem since they made it back everytime.

So what is a newish diver with a few classes under their weight belt to do to learn to be safer? :idk:

Take more classes! So at last my question: Where can a newbish (or maybe not so new) diver go to get better/make-up/advanced training. The kinds of training I am thinking about would have titiles like "Rescue Diver 3" or "Ultra trim performance bouyancy" or even "Situation FUBAR, now what?" :dork2: I have read here about Jim Lapenta's skills make-up course, NWGratefulDiver's tuneup course, and Boulderjohn's development of an advanced skills distinctive specialty course. What other courses of this nature are out there?

And I am not even saying I am ready for these classes now, just that I am looking around to see what could be coming up later.

:zen:
 
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You want the ultimate in Ultra trim performance buoyancy situational FUBAR, now what class? Take a cavern course with an excellent instructor.
 
Such things do exist - but in the mainstream (i.e. PADI) structure often tend to be 'distinctive' courses or workshops run by individual instructors.

That said, it really depends on the instructor concerned - there's no reason why the standard course progression couldn't enable delivery of "ultra-trim buoyancy" and "situation FUBAR" - that'd depend on the motivation, skill, experience and willingness of the instructor concerned.

For example, the PPB course can be as refined as the instructor wants to make it.

The OW course, with AOW reinforcement, can provide virtually every procedure needed to deal with "situation FUBAR".

Bear in mind that course contents are merely the minimum stated requirements - the option to extend beyond those minimums is available to every instructor. It's a sad state of affairs that this rarely happens - and what students get is a one-size-fits-all, off-the-shelf course that lacks imagination, personalization and true progression.

Don't blame the instructors too much for that - because extending a course will normally entail extending the costs. Few student divers seem to understand or value the notion that the true value of a course lies in what is learnt, rather than the plastic card they get at the end of it. They simply won't pay more for a course (even if dramatically extended in scope) if it 'only' results in the same c-card upon graduation.
 
Let me start by saying I hope this is not the start of the Rescue or not, DM or not, DM vs MD, which standard course, GUE or not, tech or not, or PADI vs whoever thread...

So in the mostly lurking I do in this forum, I see the recurring idea that new divers want to get to DM to become a better and safer diver. Then of course, the answer comes back that a DM cert is not the way to do that, that rescue and getting a few choice certifications that would be better for learning. But then in other threads there are complaints about the quality and depth of these classes, a lot of times by the same people. And often the answer "just dive more" comes up. But there are a lot of things divers do not know that they do not know, so they can really ask about them, and cant get better/safer. They may not known that there was a problem since they made it back everytime.

So what is a newish diver with a few classes under their weight belt to do to learn to be safer? :idk:

Take more classes! So at last my question: Where can a newbish (or maybe not so new) diver go to get better/make-up/advanced training. The kinds of training I am thinking about would have titiles like "Rescue Diver 3" or "Ultra trim performance bouyancy" or even "Situation FUBAR, now what?" :dork2: I have read here about Jim Lapenta's skills make-up course, NWGratefulDiver's tuneup course, and Boulderjohn's development of an advanced skills distinctive specialty course. What other courses of this nature are out there?

And I am not even saying I am ready for these classes now, just that I am looking around to see what could be coming up later.

:zen:

Do you have more experienced divers who would be willing to drill with you? That is one step, to practice the mask off / on / clear, reg swaps, and the rest you learned in class.

Second, read a LOT. Mark Powell's "Deco for Divers" is a great book to start now, take your time with, and understand what all this decompression stuff is about.

First on your actual training list should be Advanced Open Water. Then you take the skills you learned doing that, and practice - practice - practice. Oh, and don't forget to have fun after the drills!!

I wouldn't worry about Rescue diver for a little while -- get 30-40 dives and solid skills under your belt.

Search on "diver buoyancy practice", and find links like:Buoyancy Control Scuba Diving Tips - Keep Yourself Level

Drill a little on every dive, read as much as you can, and practice. That will get you started down the right path. :)
 
Well, I think there is a lot of posturing online. Ppl are quick to be experts or scoff at mainstream training. However, I think you would learn quite a bit by becoming a MD or AOW. I have been certified for 20 years and I'm in the middle of MD. I have learned, been reminded of important things, and enjoyed the process.

It reminds me of golf. Lessons alone won't make you a good golfer but they are necessary to become a good golfer. Same with diving. You learn from those that know more than you then practice what you learned.
 
This is really a great question, and I wish there were a universally applicable answer.

Quality instruction is everywhere and nowhere . . . the same class, taught by two different people, can be night and day. My dear friend NW Grateful Diver teaches an AOW class that would challenge some technical divers -- I'm cave certified, and one of the dives in his AOW class still gives me the willies. The AOW class I took was worth very little except five immersions with somebody watching me to keep me from killing myself. I learned very little. Both were given in the same geographical area and same water conditions. The difference was not agency; it was instructor.

I think there are some classes you can fairly reliably describe. For example, GUE Fundamentals is going to have a certain content, and an instructor who is significantly more capable than anything his students are asked to do. He may or may not be a fabulous TEACHER, but he will be a fabulous diver to watch. UTD Essentials is also likely to have someone who will, at the very least, be a great visual model. A cavern class is highly likely to focus on buoyancy, trim, and propulsion techniques, but the standards the student must reach to pass can vary rather distressingly from instructor to instructor.

If you really want to acquire superb skills, I would suggest looking around for divers who have advanced certifications and who might be willing to do a dive or two with you -- you can evaluate their skills and their style of diving, and if you like it, find out where they learned what they know, and go to that same source. Honestly, that's what I did. I was not disappointed.
 
So - what does it mean to be a "better and safer diver?"

Let's assume that means:

  • Good team skills
  • Excellent buoyancy and trim
  • Proper gear configuration
  • Effective use of appropriate kicks
  • Proper gas management
  • Understands and can execute safety drills

Seems like you could dive a lot and receive mentoring from more experienced divers and practice skills and drills until you were polished in your execution.

I don't think it would be out of line to suggest a GUE Fundies class either. :) Hope that doesn't stir the pot too much.
 
I am a reasonably experienced diver - in my universe. Which means I have over 200 dives in warm tropical waters. I have NO firsthand experience with cold water diving, some cavern (not cave) diving and although I have taken the wreck course from PADI I have only limited experience inside wrecks. Mans got to know his limitations. I have no problems in high currents, like Palau but at my age and with my interests I will not be found in a dry suit or a 7 mil EVER. I will never be found in a narrow cavern (lol, I wouldn't fit) taking off my gear and shoving it in ahead of me. Just isn't going to happen. That said the tricky part of knowing what you need to learn is that by definition, you don't know it. This is where instruction is so critical. You simply can't practice something you don't realize needs practicing. I have been considering gue training. If Jim Lapenta lived someplace warm and tropical I have often thought I'd just hire him for a half a dozen dives or so for him to observe my wife and I and discuss what he thinks we should work on then help us with it till we were reasonably proficient. I'm not retired yet so I don't have unlimited time available but these are thoughts that have been banging around the empty corners of my mind (lot of space in there). I feel comfortable underwater but have (thankfully) never found myself in one of those OH SH.. moments. I'd like to think it is because I arrange things to avoid that but those moments happen on rare occasions regardless of preparation. Further learning is always in order. Reading posts in here are an invaluable tool to gain insight into what we don't know. Thanks all.
 
The OP asked -- "Where can I get advanced training?" I think the answer as shown by the various responses is "Many places."

Someone tried to identify what is "advanced training" and that is probably the best place for the OP to start looking for "who" and "where." Until HE decides WHAT he wants to learn, he won't really be able to know where to look for from whom to take the instruction.

I tell my students to take some classes from me and when they think they are good, to take some classes from friends of mine who will show them how high the bar can be. What do you want to learn?
 
Such things do exist - but in the mainstream (i.e. PADI) structure often tend to be 'distinctive' courses or workshops run by individual instructors.
Where? Besides the three I mentioned. Is there a list of courses like this?

That said, it really depends on the instructor concerned - there's no reason why the standard course progression couldn't enable delivery of "ultra-trim buoyancy" and "situation FUBAR" - that'd depend on the motivation, skill, experience and willingness of the instructor concerned.

For example, the PPB course can be as refined as the instructor wants to make it.

The OW course, with AOW reinforcement, can provide virtually every procedure needed to deal with "situation FUBAR".

Bear in mind that course contents are merely the minimum stated requirements - the option to extend beyond those minimums is available to every instructor. It's a sad state of affairs that this rarely happens - and what students get is a one-size-fits-all, off-the-shelf course that lacks imagination, personalization and true progression.

Don't blame the instructors too much for that - because extending a course will normally entail extending the costs. Few student divers seem to understand or value the notion that the true value of a course lies in what is learnt, rather than the plastic card they get at the end of it. They simply won't pay more for a course (even if dramatically extended in scope) if it 'only' results in the same c-card upon graduation.
It can, but often times doesnt due to the economics of it all. And of course the "conditions equal to or better than" thing could reduce the skills taught in the class.

Do you have more experienced divers who would be willing to drill with you? That is one step, to practice the mask off / on / clear, reg swaps, and the rest you learned in class.
I try to do some of it on my own, sometimes to give me something to do at the safety stop, sometimes during the dive just because. I even practice buddy breathing alone, which would really just be slowly exhaling in the water before replacing my reg and taking a breath. Tried breathing off an Air2 a couple of times. Ick. I guess the shop doesnt really clean them out.

Second, read a LOT. Mark Powell's "Deco for Divers" is a great book to start now, take your time with, and understand what all this decompression stuff is about.
Its been sitting in my amazon.com cart for a while along with the Six Skills book... only one left! *order* Zero left. :D

Well, I think there is a lot of posturing online. Ppl are quick to be experts or scoff at mainstream training. However, I think you would learn quite a bit by becoming a MD or AOW. I have been certified for 20 years and I'm in the middle of MD. I have learned, been reminded of important things, and enjoyed the process.
AOW didnt seem to help with deFUBARing skills. At least I don't think it did. If anything, it opens one up to a whole additional set of ways to FUBAR yourself.

This is really a great question, and I wish there were a universally applicable answer.

Quality instruction is everywhere and nowhere . . . the same class, taught by two different people, can be night and day. My dear friend NW Grateful Diver teaches an AOW class that would challenge some technical divers -- I'm cave certified, and one of the dives in his AOW class still gives me the willies. The AOW class I took was worth very little except five immersions with somebody watching me to keep me from killing myself. I learned very little. Both were given in the same geographical area and same water conditions. The difference was not agency; it was instructor.
Let me repeat my reply to DevonDiver: Where? Is there a list of instructors that are known to offer particularly in depth variations of the basic and specialty classes?

If you really want to acquire superb skills, I would suggest looking around for divers who have advanced certifications and who might be willing to do a dive or two with you -- you can evaluate their skills and their style of diving, and if you like it, find out where they learned what they know, and go to that same source. Honestly, that's what I did. I was not disappointed.
Seems little ad-hoc. I would expect the answer to be "Yeah, you look fine..." especially since there is a high likelyhood that nothing will actually go wrong.

So - what does it mean to be a "better and safer diver?"

Let's assume that means:

  • Good team skills
  • Excellent buoyancy and trim
  • Proper gear configuration
  • Effective use of appropriate kicks
  • Proper gas management
  • Understands and can execute safety drills

Seems like you could dive a lot and receive mentoring from more experienced divers and practice skills and drills until you were polished in your execution.
This seems to be the "dive more" answer I mentioned in the original post. Now I have to find a mentor though...

You want the ultimate in Ultra trim performance buoyancy situational FUBAR, now what class? Take a cavern course with an excellent instructor.

I think there are some classes you can fairly reliably describe. For example, GUE Fundamentals is going to have a certain content, and an instructor who is significantly more capable than anything his students are asked to do. He may or may not be a fabulous TEACHER, but he will be a fabulous diver to watch. UTD Essentials is also likely to have someone who will, at the very least, be a great visual model. A cavern class is highly likely to focus on buoyancy, trim, and propulsion techniques, but the standards the student must reach to pass can vary rather distressingly from instructor to instructor.

I don't think it would be out of line to suggest a GUE Fundies class either. :) Hope that doesn't stir the pot too much.
Near-tech intros... I didnt want the converstion to head that way, but does it have to?

I have been considering gue training. If Jim Lapenta lived someplace warm and tropical I have often thought I'd just hire him for a half a dozen dives or so for him to observe my wife and I and discuss what he thinks we should work on then help us with it till we were reasonably proficient.
Me too and me too. There must be other ways to get the same skills. I was also thinking of picking up a solo diver text; cant see a problem with trying to be as prepared as a solo diver while diving with a buddy (or mob, as sometime happens here.)

The OP asked -- "Where can I get advanced training?" I think the answer as shown by the various responses is "Many places."

Someone tried to identify what is "advanced training" and that is probably the best place for the OP to start looking for "who" and "where." Until HE decides WHAT he wants to learn, he won't really be able to know where to look for from whom to take the instruction.
A lot of times, we dont know what we dont know...:idk:

:zen:
 

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