Diver missing today? 03/28/12

[cvchief]

Anyone hearing anything about a diver lost today on Santa Rosa wall?

[Jax]

Damn, again?

Chief, is that the one that goes down to like 80, then a wide area like 20', and then drops to the abyss?





Edit - also in thread www.scubaboard.com/forums/cozumel/415470-dangerous-conditions-coz-right-now.html

[cvchief]

I didn't see it had started in the other thread.

[Jax]

It hadn't -- his is two minutes newer than yours. ;)


Is Santa Rosa wall like I described?

[Mike]

Santa Rosa I think of for it's dramatic swim thrus (and sometimes dramatic currents)

[Brules]

I was down there in 03 or 04 and a diver disappeared on Santa Rosa, never found a body.....

[pjhansman]

We dove Santa Rosa Wall this morning. Great viz and very little current. Beautiful dive.

Haven't heard anything about a missing diver.

[rkfatheree]

A female diver has been missing since 10 am. She was a cruise ship passenger. Not sure which dive site.

[jd950]

A female diver has been missing since 10 am. She was a cruise ship passenger. Not sure which dive site.

Yes, female passener from one of the cruise ships is what I heard from our DM while we were still on the water. She was on the first dive (I heard around 8:30-9:00 AM) and was on Santa Rosa wall. Got blown away or down by one of the bad currents we have been experiencing. As far as I know, not found. I saw the helicopter heading back from searching late yesterday afternoon.

Edit: The PorEsto article is out:www.poresto.net/ver_nota.php… (http://www.poresto.net/ver_nota.php?zona=qroo&idSeccion=5&idTitulo=156973)

They do say 10:00 AM and suggest she was actually "lost" after surfacing rather than a current situation while diving.

[pjhansman]

Yes, female passener from one of the cruise ships is what I heard from our DM while we were still on the water. She was on the first dive (I heard around 8:30-9:00 AM) and was on Santa Rosa wall. Got blown away or down by one of the bad currents we have been experiencing. As far as I know, not found. I saw the helicopter heading back from searching late yesterday afternoon.

I think we were the first divers down on Santa Rosa wall yesterday (8:20 according to my computer) and we were down 52 minutes. The current was normal......VERY slow compared to most other dives this week.

Things must have changed very quickly. I hope they find her.

[Jax]

Edit: The PorEsto article is out:www.poresto.net/ver_nota.php… (http://www.poresto.net/ver_nota.php?zona=qroo&idSeccion=5&idTitulo=156973)

From the above - google translate:

COZUMEL, March 28. - He lost a foreign tourist who was diving on the reef of Santa Rosa. The woman was with a group of divers when he made the sign that was to emerge to the surface, which he did, however, when the group ended the tour and got into the boat that carried them, the crew noticed that she was not .

Escalante Genaro Medina, chief officer of Federal Maritime Ward (Remafe) of the Port Authority, announced that the tourist by the name of Cristina Cassin, 49, is an American, arrived in the island at 07:30 Wednesday morning cruise aboard Celebrity Equinox which docked at the port terminal SSA Mexico.

Preliminarily reported that "foreign bought a dive trip to the company 'Sand Dollar', and on board the vessel 'Sand Dollar Express, broke in with a group of tourists at this time which I have not the amount of were few. What we have at the moment is that Cristina Cassin, was diving at ten o'clock in Santa Rosa, about a kilometer from the coast in the south of the island at a depth of ten meters, when at 10 : 10 decides to come to the surface, the dive master or dive instructor realizes this, get to see, however, the crew of the boat that traveled did not see, and at the end of the dive, the dive master up to the boat by asking for it and was not on board. "

At that moment was part of the Harbor Master via marine band radio channel 16, is triangulated the report to the Naval Sector of Cozumel, and began the search until 19 pm on Wednesday did not yield positive results.

The respondent said, "to appear was the negligence of the crew of the boat not to be aware of the bubble trail left by divers when they are in the sea, it seems, take into account that the dive lasts 40 to 50 minutes and when they will meet that time is when the crew was concerned about being close to the bubble to help divers when they come to the surface. "

Do not know what was the reason why Cassin Cristina decided to come to the surface, but considers that the priority is to find it and then lifted the corresponding minutes.

In search intercepting two boats joined the Naval Sector, a launch of the Port Authority of type "Zodiac", two boats of the Marine Park, and a helicopter AMHT enrollment 209, the Secretary of the Navy of Mexico.

The status of the foreign is missing, the phase of the current search is considered active until the daylight lasts 72 hours and then, if it is not you enter the passive phase, ie the operation is interrupted and only wait for the body landfall somewhere along the coast.

He said the exploration of the operating radius is to the north of Santa Rosa, and have seen "in the search pattern is very strong currents, in which a person can be dragged 200 meters in a minute."

He says that the vessel involved is participating in the search and continue until 72 hours, if that does not appear during that time, we will report to the judicial authorities and take appropriate action depending on how it happened, the situation may fincar responsibility the owner of the vessel and / or dive guide or dive master.

He concluded that loss is the second of its kind in Cozumel so far this year.

[DandyDon]

Another news story from google translate: ¿Se la tragó el mar? (http://www.dqr.com.mx/index.php/policia/cozumel/33788-ise-la-trago-el-mar)

Reported disappearance of tourist who was diving in Santa Rosa reef

COZUMEL, March 27 . - was lost in the waters of Cozumel, the tourist Cristina Cassin, where he practiced diving and divemaster's carelessness (instructor), surfaced so far without their whereabouts are known, because the disappearance of foreign elements Port Captain, Naval and Civil Protection Sector, conducted a search operation to try to locate the woman who came aboard the cruiser "Equinox". The harbor master, Eduardo Meixueiro Mancisidor said the company "San Dolars" informed them that this day around 10:00 am, took a group of tourists to the reef diving "Santa Rosa", but at 10 minutes, it is believed that foreign Cristina Cassin, 49, rose to the surface without the teacher noticing.
Whenever at 11:00 am all the tourists who were on tour together with diving instructor boarded the vessel "San Dollar Express" and that's when he realized that the woman was missing, giving first hand the company, with those subsequently give notice to the Harbor Master.
As implemented an operating search with elements of the Navy of Mexico, who are using their boats to the location by sea and a helicopter to try to view from the air, if indeed the tourist surfaced as people think.
Similarly explained that the Tuesday had a meeting with all the dealers of Tourist Services, such as diving and snorkeling, where they were asked to take further training with their staff and the care with tourists, since there is now a strong current at sea and currents are found, which has been with the harbor pilots who are responsible for giving out to the cruise and are moved abruptly by the weather.
Eduardo Meixueiro Mancisidor said they have confidence in the next few hours to locate the tourist, who came from a passenger on the cruise, "Equinox" and that this called for the support of the Fifth Naval Region Isla Mujeres and Cancun who joined the search along with two interceptor boats of Cozumel Marine sector and two boats of the Port Authority.
It should be noted that the operation continues, but still there is no information that has been located the tourist or his body, but it is presumed that the currents in that area are very strong and according to information from experts, the person may go away 100 meters per minute to the south, so that part has already been given to authorities elsewhere in the state, as it will continue searching until the sun's rays permit .

[lionfish-eater]

Hope they find her. Hey Dave, would you consider sending out some of the Aldora boats to assist in the search? Maybe for a few hours in the afternoon or evening? Hope they find her.

[robint]

so according to that report... the diver surfaced 10 minutes into the dive, not at the end, but the DM didn't notice.

So we have conflicting reports... as usual.
Either way, we can all surmise that there was no buddy system in effect.


I hope she is found, but it doesn't sound likely at this point.

robin

[GBOGH]

Wow. Hope they find her. I'll be diving there in a couple weeks myself.

I wonder where her dive buddy was the whole time?

[Gdog]

119851

Santa Rosa Wall, taken last week. You will notice the current is reversed on this dive, North to South. Was a crazy week of currents last week.

[DandyDon]

I doubt that Dave has to be asked to help in times like this. :rolleyes: It does sound like buddy failure, if there ever was a pair. I have a number of hunches but don't know.

[Mike]

119851

Santa Rosa Wall, taken last week. You will notice the current is reversed on this dive, North to South. Was a crazy week of currents last week.

That's weird, I thought that picture was flipped at first. I've never dived it going the opposite way.

[scubawife]

So one report says the DM knew she surfaced, but the boat didn't see her and kept following the group. The other says nobody noticed she left the group. Whatever the case, she ascended solo not that long into the dive.

I'm sure we've all see the scenario, or maybe even done it ourselves. Diving with a group and one person is low on air or has an issue and decides to go up. The buddy (if they have one) and/or DM watches them as they go up until they break the surface. Some DMs, depending on what point in the dive, will shoot their marker so the boat knows a diver is coming up. Others don't. Some divers have their own SMBs, some don't. Some have them and have no idea how to deploy them. I think that group diving, especially if you're in a small group and are not traveling with a dive buddy, it's easy to have this happen. I know divers who choose Cozumel because as a solo traveling diver they like the group aspect of the diving.

This isn't the first accident where a diver ascended solo. DMs can't see everything all the time. Divers need to take some responsibility too, both for themselves and their fellow divers in the group. If you see someone getting ready to go up alone, get the DMs attention if they haven't, or maybe even consider buddying up and going up with them, even if it does cut your dive. If you're the one that wants to ascend, get your DMs attention and also get someone to go up with you. Carry an SMB, even if it's a small one, and know how to use it. Having a whistle or other device is good too. If the boat doesn't see you in a few minutes you might need to get their attention. I'd rather apologize for being a little obnoxious then not be seen.

[Jax]

Scubawife, I agree completely.

There seems to be an awful lot of "quick to blame someone else" here lately. :hm:

[boulderjohn]

Some divers have their own SMBs, some don't. ...
Carry an SMB, even if it's a small one, and know how to use it. Having a whistle or other device is good too. If the boat doesn't see you in a few minutes you might need to get their attention. I'd rather apologize for being a little obnoxious then not be seen.

When I dived the Great Barrier Reef nearly a decade ago, I was required to carry an SMB. If I didn't have one, one would be provided for me. When I dived the Galapagos years ago, I was required to carry both an SMB and an electronic signalling device (provided by the boat). I am surprised that an SMB is not required in Cozumel. If the government will not require it, I would think it would be easy for the dive operator to require it.

I carry an SMB on all dives, and I think failing to carry one on a drift dive is foolish.

[robint]

1. since the lady was diving from a cruise ship, it can be surmised that she did not bring her own gear so was using rental gear which she was not familiar with and also that she was a beginner.
2. since it says the DM did not know she was gone, it can also be surmised that she did not signal to him (ever boat dive I have ever done, the DM briefs that you need to tell him if you need to go up, for whatever reason, and your buddy always goes with you)
3. since she was diving from a cruise ship, it can also be assumed that she was buddied with someone that she did not know and that neither of them was paying any attention to the other... a newbie mistake.
4. AND we can all assume at this point that current had nothing to do with the disappearance.

All assumptions... but I think most likely all true.

I hope they find her alive, but the longer it goes, the less likely.

robin

[Randy43068]

seems reasonable to me, absent any other facts in the matter.
Perhaps she had limited experience or limited recent experience in the water. No matter, it's sad it happened.


1. since the lady was diving from a cruise ship, it can be surmised that she did not bring her own gear so was using rental gear which she was not familiar with and also that she was a beginner.
2. since it says the DM did not know she was gone, it can also be surmised that she did not signal to him (ever boat dive I have ever done, the DM briefs that you need to tell him if you need to go up, for whatever reason, and your buddy always goes with you)
3. since she was diving from a cruise ship, it can also be assumed that she was buddied with someone that she did not know and that neither of them was paying any attention to the other... a newbie mistake.
4. AND we can all assume at this point that current had nothing to do with the disappearance.

All assumptions... but I think most likely all true.

I hope they find her alive, but the longer it goes, the less likely.

robin

[ILoveLilies]

We are here in Cozumel and have heard of 1 - 3 divers lost from a 10am dive. We could see search going on until until late afternoon. It was with Sand Dollar Dive Center and at Santa Rosa. We have heard currents have been running strong but don't know circumstances. Haven't seen search continuing or heard anything this morning.

[gypsyjim]

After my first real trip to Coz last year I became a firm believer in carrying my own SMB, which I did this Feb, and used on all but one of the dives, before I surfaced. Way too easy even in normal currents there to become separated from others if you do your ascents separately, and there is no way I want to be surfacing in those waters without that marker above me, both to signal my own dive boat, and to also alert any other boats in the area that a diver is ascending.

I am not a big one for "More Laws", every time something goes wrong, but it sure would benefit the local dive industry themselves on Coz, to emphasize the need for each diver to have one on them, supply them when needed and demonstrate how they can be used prior to reaching the surface.

And no matter what, a DM in charge of a small group of divers should not lose track of their charges, especially as Coz has pretty tight rules about a local DM being required on every dive, and sets fairly small limits on the size of each group overseen by that DM. At least that is my understanding of the rules there, but then I am not terribly experienced at diving in this particular region, and I could be in error as to the rules involved here.

[Jax]

2. since it says the DM did not know she was gone, it can also be surmised that she did not signal to him (ever boat dive I have ever done, the DM briefs that you need to tell him if you need to go up, for whatever reason, and your buddy always goes with you)

robin

I'd like to applaud this statement! :clapping:

I've found it very, very true in the 45 or so Coz dives I've been on.

[Randy43068]

The only exception to your comments I'd have is that I don't believe it's a DMs job to heard certified divers who typically behave like cats. Sad is it is, the diver in question is responsible for her own actions. We don't know the circumstances but if it's true that she broke the surface then there is every reason to think she should have been able to keep things under control. So again, the exception I take is that the diver was responsible, not the DM.


After my first real trip to Coz last year I became a firm believer in carrying my own SMB, which I did this Feb, and used on all but one of the dives, before I surfaced. Way too easy even in normal currents there to become separated from others if you do your ascents separately, and there is no way I want to be surfacing in those waters without that marker above me, both to signal my own dive boat, and to also alert any other boats in the area that a diver is ascending.

I am not a big one for "More Laws", every time something goes wrong, but it sure would benefit the local dive industry themselves on Coz, to emphasize the need for each diver to have one on them, supply them when needed and demonstrate how they can be used prior to reaching the surface.

And no matter what, a DM in charge of a small group of divers should not lose track of their charges, especially as Coz has pretty tight rules about a local DM being required on every dive, and sets fairly small limits on the size of each group overseen by that DM. At least that is my understanding of the rules there, but then I am not terribly experienced at diving in this particular region, and I could be in error as to the rules involved here.

[NewbaScuba]

Before going to Coz last year, my Wife and I did our research. One of the first conclusions I came to was that we each needed a reel and SMB and audible signal.
Even so, with currents as strong as those in Coz, I can see a person being swept away from an area rather quickly, even on the surface.
It's inevitable that something will happen to someone, and all we can do is try to minimize the risks.

That being said, I remember Cozumel as a Caribbean magic carpet ride.

[Mike]

So one report says the DM knew she surfaced, but the boat didn't see her and kept following the group. The other says nobody noticed she left the group. Whatever the case, she ascended solo not that long into the dive.

I'm sure we've all see the scenario, or maybe even done it ourselves. Diving with a group and one person is low on air or has an issue and decides to go up. The buddy (if they have one) and/or DM watches them as they go up until they break the surface. Some DMs, depending on what point in the dive, will shoot their marker so the boat knows a diver is coming up. Others don't. Some divers have their own SMBs, some don't. Some have them and have no idea how to deploy them. I think that group diving, especially if you're in a small group and are not traveling with a dive buddy, it's easy to have this happen. I know divers who choose Cozumel because as a solo traveling diver they like the group aspect of the diving.

This isn't the first accident where a diver ascended solo. DMs can't see everything all the time. Divers need to take some responsibility too, both for themselves and their fellow divers in the group. If you see someone getting ready to go up alone, get the DMs attention if they haven't, or maybe even consider buddying up and going up with them, even if it does cut your dive. If you're the one that wants to ascend, get your DMs attention and also get someone to go up with you. Carry an SMB, even if it's a small one, and know how to use it. Having a whistle or other device is good too. If the boat doesn't see you in a few minutes you might need to get their attention. I'd rather apologize for being a little obnoxious then not be seen.

Good points.

Scuba law as written by me to greatly increase your chances of survival.

Don't dive without a dive buddy.
Where your buddy goes you go and vise-versa.
Never be more than one breath away from your buddy and vise versa.
If you insta-buddy with somebody, have a discussion with them prior to the dive, hand signals, how close you will be, no one surfaces alone... etc..

I can't keep track of the amount of dead diver reports I've read on scubaboard where the diver would probably be alive if they followed these rules.

[Randy43068]

Absent a medical condition you are probably correct.


Good points.

Scuba law as written by me to greatly increase your chances of survival.

Don't dive without a dive buddy.
Where your buddy goes you go and vise-versa.
Never be more than one breath away from your buddy and vise versa.
If you insta-buddy with somebody, have a discussion with them prior to the dive, hand signals, how close you will be, no one surfaces alone... etc..

I can't keep track of the amount of dead diver reports I've read on scubaboard where the diver would probably be alive if they followed these rules.

[rkfatheree]

1. since the lady was diving from a cruise ship, it can be surmised that she did not bring her own gear so was using rental gear which she was not familiar with and also that she was a beginner.
2. since it says the DM did not know she was gone, it can also be surmised that she did not signal to him (ever boat dive I have ever done, the DM briefs that you need to tell him if you need to go up, for whatever reason, and your buddy always goes with you)
3. since she was diving from a cruise ship, it can also be assumed that she was buddied with someone that she did not know and that neither of them was paying any attention to the other... a newbie mistake.
4. AND we can all assume at this point that current had nothing to do with the disappearance.

All assumptions... but I think most likely all true.

I hope they find her alive, but the longer it goes, the less likely.

robin

I wouldn't assume that the current had nothing to do with it, although who's to say!

The currents have been whacky. In the last week we've had to abort one dive with divers in the water, lost two of our group (very experienced - they were fine.) It only took seconds for us to lose the reef and we were with VERY experienced DMs. Another dive, one of our group got caught in a downdraft and was lost for about ten minutes. I deployed my SBM for the first time, after our DM told us to ascend when my husband ran low on air. On the boat he said he wouldn't do that again with the currents - that he would have everyone ascend together. (I wasn't worried. We were approached by two boats asking if we needed help, and I could see our boat, albeit several hundred meters away. They radioed our boat and they picked us and the rest of our group up.) Most of our boat-mates have been more experienced than our group, but there have been a number of "Dive Discovery" people who should not be allowed in open water, period. They certainly should not be on dives where the current is more unpredictable than usual.

I believe each diver has to take responsibility for him/herself, but I also think these uncertified divers don't necessarily know enough to make educated decisions for themselves. Perhaps she wasn't a "discover scuba" diver, but having seen others from the cruise ships this week, that's an assumption that I would definitely make.

P.S. Yesterday afternoon, our DMs started making sure everyone had SBMs and distributed them to those without!

[cvchief]

So one report says the DM knew she surfaced, but the boat didn't see her and kept following the group. The other says nobody noticed she left the group. Whatever the case, she ascended solo not that long into the dive.

I'm sure we've all see the scenario, or maybe even done it ourselves. Diving with a group and one person is low on air or has an issue and decides to go up. The buddy (if they have one) and/or DM watches them as they go up until they break the surface. Some DMs, depending on what point in the dive, will shoot their marker so the boat knows a diver is coming up. Others don't. Some divers have their own SMBs, some don't. Some have them and have no idea how to deploy them. I think that group diving, especially if you're in a small group and are not traveling with a dive buddy, it's easy to have this happen. I know divers who choose Cozumel because as a solo traveling diver they like the group aspect of the diving.

This isn't the first accident where a diver ascended solo. DMs can't see everything all the time. Divers need to take some responsibility too, both for themselves and their fellow divers in the group. If you see someone getting ready to go up alone, get the DMs attention if they haven't, or maybe even consider buddying up and going up with them, even if it does cut your dive. If you're the one that wants to ascend, get your DMs attention and also get someone to go up with you. Carry an SMB, even if it's a small one, and know how to use it. Having a whistle or other device is good too. If the boat doesn't see you in a few minutes you might need to get their attention. I'd rather apologize for being a little obnoxious then not be seen.


I don't know. If the DM knew she was going up, shouldn't he make sure the boat has her sighted before moving on? The group is a group and is assumedly ok continuing the dive. The diver going up has some issue or she wouldnt be going up. She needs the DM not the group. As soon as the DM turns his back on that surfacing diver, she is 'lost' until and if the boat finds her.


Added: This isnt to say a diver shouldn't be prepared to take care of themselves and all that. Diver and DM responsibilities should overlap for safety, not meet in the middle. I hear the speech on EVERY dive. "DO NOT leave my signal tube until the boat arrives. If you leave the signal tube, I can't see and the boat can't see you and you are lost. The most important thing is STAY next to my signal tube and if you have a problem, pull on it and I will come up to you." I have my own SMB and whistle and all anyway, but my DM's plan is that I won't use it.

[gypsyjim]

The only exception to your comments I'd have is that I don't believe it's a DMs job to heard certified divers who typically behave like cats. Sad is it is, the diver in question is responsible for her own actions. We don't know the circumstances but if it's true that she broke the surface then there is every reason to think she should have been able to keep things under control. So again, the exception I take is that the diver was responsible, not the DM.

I would agree that every certified diver should be able to be able to dive without a shepherd, but the reality is not all can. Especially in the case of cruise ship divers, this is often simply not the case. This is the real world as it is today, and Coz does require a DM shepherd for all of us, no matter how good a diver we are and those DM"s are expected to be in control of their charges, and oversee their safety.

I for one, would be quite happy to use the local DM's there simply to point my way, and let me go, but that is not how coz diving is set up.

[robint]

I wish every diver, especially NEW ones would follow the buddy rule!!

My husband is an instructor here locally and most of his students are heading off on a trip shortly after certification. I cannot tell you some of the horror stories he gets back from them after their first trip.
The one that applies here is a family - Mom, Dad, 2 teen kids, who he certified just before a Belize trip. They returned and were telling us about their trip, and how her husband had bouyancy issues and went down to +120' over and over. We asked who was his buddy. And the first thing the Mom told us was that is was so awesome not to have to worry about a buddy! The DM told them that they were all in a group and no buddies needed. Really? WTF. My husband and another instructor were standing there listening and started yelling at her... she still didn't get it. Over and over they told her YES, YOU ALWAYS HAVE A BUDDY AND YOU ALWAYS NEED TO DO ALL THE BUDDY CHECK STUFF YOU LEARNED IN CLASS, EVERY DIVE, NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE!!! But she still kept saying - No, the DM said we were all together and no buddies. ~sigh~ Scary.

robin

[Randy43068]

So you place blame on the DM for this? Seems that's what you're saying.
If the DM is responsible as you seem to suggest then they should require a skills test before the dive. It's only fair.


I would agree that every certified diver should be able to be able to dive without a shepherd, but the reality is not all can. Especially in the case of cruise ship divers, this is often simply not the case. This is the real world as it is today, and Coz does require a DM shepherd for all of us, no matter how good a diver we are and those DM"s are expected to be in control of their charges, and oversee their safety.

I for one, would be quite happy to use the local DM's there simply to point my way, and let me go, but that is not how coz diving is set up.

[Firefyter]

I would agree that every certified diver should be able to be able to dive without a shepherd, but the reality is not all can. Especially in the case of cruise ship divers, this is often simply not the case. This is the case more often than not. They either need babysitting, or want it.

I for one, would be quite happy to use the local DM's there simply to point my way, and let me go, but that is not how coz diving is set up.

There are a few that will do almost that once they are confident in your skills. It really pays in this area to develop a relationship with your DM through the years. Once they find you are capable and that they can trust you, you do get more freedom.


I wish every diver, especially NEW ones would follow the buddy rule!!

Don't want one, don't need one. I trust my skills way more than I trust most other divers. I'll take care of myself, thanks.....


So you place blame on the DM for this? Seems that's what you're saying.
If the DM is responsible as you seem to suggest then they should require a skills test before the dive. It's only fair.

Randy, I get your point, and I totally agree with you. However, if you're diving with a DM there for more than one dive, don't think they're not evaluating you. They're watching how you dive, and this evaluation has a lot to do with what other sites you dive with them.

[Jax]

I wish every diver, especially NEW ones would follow the buddy rule!!

My husband is an instructor here locally and most of his students are heading off on a trip shortly after certification. I cannot tell you some of the horror stories he gets back from them after their first trip.
The one that applies here is a family - Mom, Dad, 2 teen kids, who he certified just before a Belize trip. They returned and were telling us about their trip, and how her husband had bouyancy issues and went down to +120' over and over. We asked who was his buddy. And the first thing the Mom told us was that is was so awesome not to have to worry about a buddy! The DM told them that they were all in a group and no buddies needed. Really? WTF. My husband and another instructor were standing there listening and started yelling at her... she still didn't get it. Over and over they told her YES, YOU ALWAYS HAVE A BUDDY AND YOU ALWAYS NEED TO DO ALL THE BUDDY CHECK STUFF YOU LEARNED IN CLASS, EVERY DIVE, NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE!!! But she still kept saying - No, the DM said we were all together and no buddies. ~sigh~ Scary.

robin

OMG, I so hate this! What is it about Scuba Divers that they can meet someone with the moniker, DM, and suddenly s/he is the world's smartest person and they can forget everything they are trained to do!

Robin, can I cross-quote you to the Blamestorming thread?

[nimoh]

OMG, I so hate this! What is it about Scuba Divers that they can meet someone with the moniker, DM, and suddenly s/he is the world's smartest person and they can forget everything they are trained to do!

Robin, can I cross-quote you to the Blamestorming thread?

I am a DM, and will be the first to admit that I don't know everything about diving. But I do know every diver needs a buddy.

[Jax]

I am a DM, and will be the first to admit that I don't know everything about diving. But I do know every diver needs a buddy.

Mind if I disagree with that, as a blanket statement?

A diver needs to BE a good buddy, and HAVE a good buddy.

Having a lousy buddy is worse than not having one at all. At least solo, you KNOW you don't have a buddy.

[Firefyter]

I am a DM, and will be the first to admit that I don't know everything about diving. But I do know every diver needs a buddy.

No they don't.

[scubawife]

Not every cruise ship diver is inexperienced, solo or renting gear. There are divers who plan to dive in every port and take their own gear. Also ones who do have a dive buddy with them. In this case, at least from the info that's been reported, it seems to me the issue is a solo ascent and possibly no smb or other signaling device. Could just as easily have been an experienced diver with their own gear staying on the island... in fact, a couple accidents last years were.

My experience in Cozumel and most places I've dived, is that what's discussed as "the rules" in the dive briefing and what transpires during the dive don't always match. I've also never been on a boat in the Caribbean where having an SMB is required, or the buddy system is really enforced. I've routinely seen solo ascents in Cozumel. Most with the DM aware and shooting their marker, the diver ascending close to the line, but a number of them have been a diver signaling the DM or their buddy and before anyone can do or say anything, they're on their way. With a current, you can be 20 ft above or below someone and be traveling a totally different rate and you can't just catch up to them. Even with a DM's SMB, and seeing the diver reach the surface, anything can happen once you're on the surface. You can't have a group finning against a current to stay in place until the diver is climbing into the boat. It's not practical.

Something I learned early on in diving, and something enforced in other dive training I've done, is to dive with a buddy but think as if you're alone. If you can't self-rescue, or get a handle on the situation long enough to think and get yourself to another diver to get whatever assistance you need, then eventually, if you dive enough and dive long enough, you will find yourself in a situation that if not for luck, you won't be getting out of. Even the most trained and experienced diver can get into a panic situation, have a medical or gear emergency and need help. That's ok, we're all human. I think too many divers don't seem to ever think in terms of what if they're the one having to provide assistance, or what if they end up on their own. I don't think there's enough emphasis in the cert course about what being a "buddy" real means. It's more than just not diving alone. So much about what you learn and how well you get trained has to do with the individual instructors you choose for your courses.

Accidents happen, and they can happen to anyone at anytime. Surfacing with a buddy might not change the outcome, but if you aren't picked up or have some other surface emergency, two heads are better than one. Your chances of a good outcome are always going to be better if you aren't alone.

I hope this story has a positive outcome. My heart goes out to the diver's family. It's got to be so stressful waiting on information and not knowing what happened or where she is.

[boulderjohn]

Years ago I went to Cozumel with a large group of relatives, including one who had gotten certified for that vacation. It was his first ocean diving experience. The currents were very strong that week, perhaps the strongest I have ever experienced. He was struggling with them more than others because of his inexperience. Because of that, the two of us were at the back of the group on one of the dives. It was an unusual current in that it kept trying to blow us off the reef, so we couldn't just drift with it. All of a sudden he started to ascend. It was not his choice--he had lost control of his buoyancy. He was unable to control that ascent--he kept drifting up and away from me in the current. I couldn't catch him. I followed him all the way to the surface, where he was picked up by the boat.

The DM later thanked me for going up with him. At what point did he notice our ascent? I don't know. Unless he was looking at us at the moment we started up, I doubt he would have known we were gone until he looked back and did a count of the group. I can't blame him--he can't do a dive looking at every single diver 100% of the time. Did he know the boat had picked him up? I suspect so, since I came back down and signaled OK, but that was pretty well after the fact. Perhaps he saw the entire thing and knew it would be OK.

I just think that even with an attentive DM, it is very easy for an inexperienced diver in difficult conditions to make an uncontrolled ascent that is not witnessed by the DM. Not having a buddy witness it is another matter altogether.

[Randy43068]

The last part of your post is what at issue here.

My reply: It depends. Why is the DM there in this particular case? Is to be a guide showing where all the cool things are, or is it ensure those without good team mates are safe? In this case I'd say it was to point out the cool stuff. If the poor woman felt she wasn't up to the task then she should have paid for a dive guide, someone to keep her safe. If the DM is acting as a dive guide he's probably not making an evaluation of every diver. No time. Not what he was hired to do. So I'm back to my point. If the DM is responsible then he HAS to evaluate his charges before they go on the sightseeing trip. How well do you think that will go over with the more experienced divers? Not well. Again, back to my point. Don't blame the DM for the loss of this poor woman. Not his fault.

Here's a dilemma for you. If he is in fact responsible for the safety of everyone on the dive, should he put the majority at risk, leaving them so he can attend to the one diver? I can't answer that.



This is the case more often than not. They either need babysitting, or want it.

There are a few that will do almost that once they are confident in your skills. It really pays in this area to develop a relationship with your DM through the years. Once they find you are capable and that they can trust you, you do get more freedom.



Don't want one, don't need one. I trust my skills way more than I trust most other divers. I'll take care of myself, thanks.....



Randy, I get your point, and I totally agree with you. However, if you're diving with a DM there for more than one dive, don't think they're not evaluating you. They're watching how you dive, and this evaluation has a lot to do with what other sites you dive with them.

---------- Post added at 03:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 PM ----------

Simply having a "buddy" is no guarantee of safety. I've been on dives where I end up being the safety diver because my "buddy" doesn't know squat about being a team member. Simply having a buddy is NOT the answer to reducing dive accidents.

Having a well trained team mate is what we as divers really need. Not just a "buddy."

[kschoonover]

She was with her husband. She told her husband she needed to go to the surface. Her husband let the instructor know then headed up himself but when he reached the surface he couldn't find her. The current was part of the problem.

[logansar]

I posted this on the other thread.....

I was there two weeks ago and dove in the normal south to north current 2 days then the third day at Santa Rosa had a north to south current and a thermocline (visible - fuzzy water) that went from 80 to 75 degrees.... It was so screwed up my Son and I floated for 18 minutes before getting picked p. the current scattered divers for a very long distance.

Day 4 we were headed North again....

Very strangle

Sarge


Sarge
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sarge
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mike]

All this reminds me of Aldora's dive practice of everybody down at once, everybody up at once as extremely effective in minimizing the risks of stuff like this happening.

[logansar]

That's weird, I thought that picture was flipped at first. I've never dived it going the opposite way.

Is the normal current north to south or south to north.... Trying to picture it....

Sarge


Sarge
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jax]

Is the normal current north to south or south to north.... Trying to picture it....

Sarge


Sarge
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Normal is South to North. Not sure what makes it change. :hm:

[Mike]

Is the normal current north to south or south to north.... Trying to picture it....

Sarge


Sarge
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I've never paid any attention to compass directions, but the reef wall has always been on my right shoulder.

[kschoonover]

1. since the lady was diving from a cruise ship, it can be surmised that she did not bring her own gear so was using rental gear which she was not familiar with and also that she was a beginner.
2. since it says the DM did not know she was gone, it can also be surmised that she did not signal to him (ever boat dive I have ever done, the DM briefs that you need to tell him if you need to go up, for whatever reason, and your buddy always goes with you)
3. since she was diving from a cruise ship, it can also be assumed that she was buddied with someone that she did not know and that neither of them was paying any attention to the other... a newbie mistake.
4. AND we can all assume at this point that current had nothing to do with the disappearance.

All assumptions... but I think most likely all true.

I hope they find her alive, but the longer it goes, the less likely.

robin

She was buddied up with her husband not a stranger. She told her husband she needed to go to the surface. Her husband let the DM know then headed up himself but when he reached the surface he couldn't find her. The current was part of the problem. They did inform the DM she needed to go up.And they bought most of their gear so none of these assumptions are actually true.

[Jax]

From Steve Rosenberg's Diving Cozumel:


The dominant current flowing thout the Caribbean originates in the Sourth Atlantic. When the current reaches the Brazilian bluge it splits. About 40 percent of the flow moes along the north fae of South America and into the Caribbean Sea. This flow is called the Guiana Current. Because the earth’s rotation causes currents to bend clockwise in the northern hemisphere, the Guiana is flowing almost due north as it sweeps around Cozumel.

This large volume of water is severely constricted as it flows through the narrow Yucatan Channel which spans about 100 miles between Mexico and Cuba. This constriction results in the current reaching speeds of over 2 knots in the Channel and as much as 8 knots between Cozumel and the mainland.


I cannot find what makes the current reverse sometimes.

[Randy43068]

What other facts can you share?


She was buddied up with her husband not a stranger. She told her husband she needed to go to the surface. Her husband let the DM know then headed up himself but when he reached the surface he couldn't find her. The current was part of the problem. They did inform the DM she needed to go up.And they bought most of their gear so none of these assumptions are actually true.

[Jax]

She was buddied up with her husband not a stranger. She told her husband she needed to go to the surface. Her husband let the DM know then headed up himself but when he reached the surface he couldn't find her. The current was part of the problem. They did inform the DM she needed to go up.And they bought most of their gear so none of these assumptions are actually true.

Hi, Kshoonover! Welcome to ScubaBoard -- so sorry it is under these conditions. :hugs:

Where you on the boat, too? Did you know her? We are so sorry for your loss.

[logansar]

Normal is South to North. Not sure what makes it change. :hm:

Thanks Jax that is what I wrote in my earlier post and then questioned myself....

It was very strange on day 3 drift diving north to south a couple weeks ago.

Sarge


Sarge
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Randy43068]

Welcome aboard. I echo JAXs sentiments and apologize if we seem callous to the situation.



She was with her husband. She told her husband she needed to go to the surface. Her husband let the instructor know then headed up himself but when he reached the surface he couldn't find her. The current was part of the problem.

[citycountryguy]

Yes, thanks for posting, although sorry it is under heartbreaking circumstances.

[jamma]

She was buddied up with her husband not a stranger. She told her husband she needed to go to the surface. Her husband let the DM know then headed up himself but when he reached the surface he couldn't find her. The current was part of the problem. They did inform the DM she needed to go up.And they bought most of their gear so none of these assumptions are actually true.

While I don't know kschoovoner, his/her account is consistent with what I've been told. I got the information from an employee, whose wife is best friends with the missing. They've had direct contact with the husband, and the way it was explained to me was that they both ascended around the same time and when the husband reached the surface, he could not locate his wife. I'm not a diver and found this website through google in an attempt to find any updates on the story. I've no idea of their experience level or anything like that, but I just wanted to corroborate what kschoovoner has said. I'm of the understanding that she is around 50 years of age and retired from the Army. My apologies to anyone with personal ties to the missing and/or her family if any of what I've said is false. I can only say for certain that our employee's wife is one of the missing's best friends.

[robint]

Okay... this new information from kschoovoner is very confusing for me, a regular diver in Cozumel.
If the husband started up right after her, why didn't he see her on his way up?
If current was the issue, then was it pushing out or across or down?
Why is it he didn't notice she wasn't around only when he reached the surface?
Even in the worst vis I have ever seen in Cozumel, I could always see other divers going up, and boats at the surface.

I don't mean to sound callous, as I am sure none of the other posters here want to appear, we are just trying to understand since this is the 3rd story of what happened we have now heard in 24 hours.

robin

[Jax]

While I don't know kschoovoner, his/her account is consistent with what I've been told. I got the information from an employee, whose wife is best friends with the missing. They've had direct contact with the husband, and the way it was explained to me was that they both ascended around the same time and when the husband reached the surface, he could not locate his wife. I'm not a diver and found this website through google in an attempt to find any updates on the story. I've no idea of their experience level or anything like that, but I just wanted to corroborate what kschoovoner has said. I'm of the understanding that she is around 50 years of age and retired from the Army. My apologies to anyone with personal ties to the missing and/or her family if any of what I've said is false. I can only say for certain that our employee's wife is one of the missing's best friends.

And welcome to you, also, Jamma. Please know that all of you are in our prayers.

This is so heartbreaking. Her husband must be beside himself. Currents can be so strange, 2 knots at one depth, and more or less at another.

Damn hard to lose a veteran under these circumstances.

[kschoonover]

What other facts can you share?

That's all my step dad has told me. They still haven't been able to find her & my step dad had to get off the cruise ship & stay there till they can find her. She's retired from the army so hopefully she's able to take care of herself. Last she was seen, she was heading to the surface, no one knows if she ever made it or what happened to her.

---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------


While I don't know kschoovoner, his/her account is consistent with what I've been told. I got the information from an employee, whose wife is best friends with the missing. They've had direct contact with the husband, and the way it was explained to me was that they both ascended around the same time and when the husband reached the surface, he could not locate his wife. I'm not a diver and found this website through google in an attempt to find any updates on the story. I've no idea of their experience level or anything like that, but I just wanted to corroborate what kschoovoner has said. I'm of the understanding that she is around 50 years of age and retired from the Army. My apologies to anyone with personal ties to the missing and/or her family if any of what I've said is false. I can only say for certain that our employee's wife is one of the missing's best friends.

I'm her daughter

[Jax]

That's all my step dad has told me. They still haven't been able to find her & my step dad had to get off the cruise ship & stay there till they can find her. She's retired from the army so hopefully she's able to take care of herself. Last she was seen, she was heading to the surface, no one knows if she ever made it or what happened to her.

---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------



I'm her daughter

Oh, Dear God. :hugs: We are so very, very sorry. Thank you for your bravery in coming forth. Your family is in our thoughts and prayers.

[boulderjohn]

Okay... this new information from kschoovoner is very confusing for me, a regular diver in Cozumel.
If the husband started up right after her, why didn't he see her on his way up?
If current was the issue, then was it pushing out or across or down?
Why is it he didn't notice she wasn't around only when he reached the surface?
Even in the worst vis I have ever seen in Cozumel, I could always see other divers going up, and boats at the surface.

I don't mean to sound callous, as I am sure none of the other posters here want to appear, we are just trying to understand since this is the 3rd story of what happened we have now heard in 24 hours.

robin

None of this surprises me at all. If she was feeling any kind of stress, she may have surfaced ahead of him, and he may have wanted to take a little more time for a safety stop or something, assuming he would see her easily on the surface. Why didn't he see her on the surface? It could have been a bunch of things. On a recent drift dive in South Florida, where you dive in small teams with dive flags, my buddy and I surfaced and we didn't see anybody or anything. There was just enough wave action to prevent us from seeing very far at all. We were like that for 15 minutes before we saw the boat coming to get us.

A more troubling reason could be that she was not on the surface any longer. I hate to say it, but that happens.

[kschoonover]

She told my step dad she needed to head up then she started to go up, but told the DM they were heading up 1st before he headed up himself. He never seen her again after he told the DM they were heading up. He doesn't know if she reached the surface or not. He just told me the current had something to do with it but he didn't explain how.

[Jax]

Dear K, and Jamma;

We discuss accidents and incidents to try to learn from them, so that we might not make the same mistakes ourselves, or to learn how to save ourselves in a situation.

Please know that these discussions can be very hard for friends and family, as we examine each piece and part of the puzzle. We mean no disrespect.

K, I suspect your Mom would understand, as the Army lives for its After Action Reports (AARs) and Lessons-Learned generation. Thank you for understanding.

[boulderjohn]

She told my step dad she needed to head up then she started to go up, but told the DM they were heading up 1st before he headed up himself. He never seen her again after he told the DM they were heading up. He doesn't know if she reached the surface or not. He just told me the current had something to do with it but he didn't explain how.

From what you said it is clear that she started the ascent with a sense of urgency, and he stayed long enough to let the DM know what was happening. That separated them. The current flows at different rates at different depths, so if he were ascending in the same path she took but unable to see her, they could come up in very different places because of that.

[Jax]

A more troubling reason could be that she was not on the surface any longer. I hate to say it, but that happens.

Agree. If she was suffering a medical problem, for example.

I wonder if she was on blood pressure medication? :hm:

[pidgiepoo]

Dear K, and Jamma;

We discuss accidents and incidents to try to learn from them, so that we might not make the same mistakes ourselves, or to learn how to save ourselves in a situation.

Please know that these discussions can be very hard for friends and family, as we examine each piece and part of the puzzle. We mean no disrespect.

K, I suspect your Mom would understand, as the Army lives for its After Action Reports (AARs) and Lessons-Learned generation. Thank you for understanding.

Nicely put Jax. Thoughts and prayers to K and Jamma during these difficult hours.

[cvchief]

The last part of your post is what at issue here.

My reply: It depends. Why is the DM there in this particular case? Is to be a guide showing where all the cool things are, or is it ensure those without good team mates are safe? In this case I'd say it was to point out the cool stuff. If the poor woman felt she wasn't up to the task then she should have paid for a dive guide, someone to keep her safe. If the DM is acting as a dive guide he's probably not making an evaluation of every diver. No time. Not what he was hired to do. So I'm back to my point. If the DM is responsible then he HAS to evaluate his charges before they go on the sightseeing trip. How well do you think that will go over with the more experienced divers? Not well. Again, back to my point. Don't blame the DM for the loss of this poor woman. Not his fault.

Here's a dilemma for you. If he is in fact responsible for the safety of everyone on the dive, should he put the majority at risk, leaving them so he can attend to the one diver? I can't answer that.

Randy,

I disagree. My Coz DM isn't there to just point stuff out. And having seen alot of divers coming back after a few years and those with only cert dives under their weight belts, they HAVE to look out for the group. In a perfect world every buddy team would be capable of handing every event on their own. I sure wasn't until I had some dive in. Until I did, my DM was keeping an extra eye on me. I see that same treatment to those rusty or new divers. I think most of the good DMs do that. I mean they all have to deal with those kind of divers.

As to the choice: If I am convulsing and losing my reg, my DM darn well should come handle me, because I am THE MOST at risk at that moment. If a diver is surfacing, that diver is the MOST at risk until sighted by the boat. I can't imagine most Coz DMs would just let someone wander to the surface on their own. They could get lost or run over. None of that is good for their business.

Of course maybe I am spoiled? Anyone else think their Coz DM is just a tour guide?


My thoughts and prayers go out to the family.

[boulderjohn]

Of course maybe I am spoiled? Anyone else think their Coz DM is just a tour guide?

The Cozumel DM is there for a very important and even essential reason, no matter what the experience level of the divers. This is a drift dive, so the boat has to be around to find the divers at the end of the dive. When drift dives are done in places like South Florida, divers go in on their own carrying dive flags. The boat just has to keep track of the flags--piece of cake. The groups can drift all over the place and still be picked up. They can do that in Florida because the reef structure is very low, and divers are pretty much on top of the reef the whole time. In Cozumel, the towering reef structures make dive flags impossible. The lines would catch on the upper reef structures, snag, and cause all kinds of damage. The boat therefore has to follow the bubbles of the group. If divers went all over the place on their own, it would be extremely difficult for the boats to find them all, and there would be lost divers bobbing around all over the place.

The Cozumel DM really has to make sure the group stays together to the extent that they can be found at the end of the dive.

[Jax]

The Cozumel DM really has to make sure the group stays together to the extent that they can be found at the end of the dive.

And at the same time, the divers are to stay in the vicinity of the DM, and maintain awareness such that hey respond immediately to any signaled requests (like remaining air or an "ok").

-- This is from a small experience sample of ~45 dives.

[kschoonover]

I personally don't blame the DM or anyone for what happened, I just want her to be found.

[AggieDiver]

I can easily see how you could be separated under those circumstances. If the DM was near the front of the group and this pair were at the back, he would have to catch up to the DM, get his msg across, then turn and try to find where she had ascended. If she ascended and got caught by a current going a different direction or had some subsequent problem, it would be easy for him to have lost her in the time it took to find the DM. I am sure the weird currents they have been having have not made the search any easier, since they can't just assume she has to be north of where she started like they would in most Coz SAR efforts.

Kschoonover, please hang in there! Your mom is in our thoughts and prayers and I hope they find her safe and sound. As others have said, thanks for coming here and posting what details you do know. We do analyze incidents here on scubaboard so that we can be safer divers ourselves in the future, so please do let us know if you are able to find out anything more.

[kschoonover]

Agree. If she was suffering a medical problem, for example.

I wonder if she was on blood pressure medication? :hm:

She wasn't on blood pressure medicine but she does have a small problem with the valve of her heart leaking blood and sometimes it can cause her to get tired easier. I'm not sure if my step dad knew exactly why she needed to go up.

[Scott]

She wasn't on blood pressure medicine but she does have a small problem with the valve of her heart leaking blood and sometimes it can cause her to get tired easier. I'm not sure if my step dad knew exactly why she needed to go up.
Do you know how long she has been a diver and if the condition was present before she was certified?

For you medical professionals, could this be something like valvular regurgitation?

[rkfatheree]

More information I received today - cannot verify its accuracy, as it comes to me via an acquaintance who heard it from his friend who works for the dive operation. (Keep that in mind, as some important details differ from other stories.)

The diver was a certified diver with 9 dives under her belt and her husband, also certified, had 5. About ten minutes into the dive, she signaled to her husband that she was having a problem with her ears and he told her to surface. He did not go with her. They did not notify the DM at that time (??) When they gathered to ascend as a group at the end of the dive, during the safety stop the DM asked the husband where his wife was, and he indicated she had already gone up. When they all got on board, the husband asked the captain where his wife was. That's when they realized they had a missing diver.

I was completely wrong to assume that the missing diver was a "Discover SCUBA" diver. Mea culpa.

IF this story is true, then the husband obviously should not have told his wife to go up OR he should have notified the DM that they were both going up OR worst case, he should have at least gone with her.

This is heartbreaking. But it also shows that when you're a new diver, you don't necessarily know what you don't know. I've learned a lot from the mistakes I've made. Luckily, I survived some of my more egregious errors to become a better diver. (Still lots of mistakes ahead of me, I'm sure.) Something like a changing current or downdraft can make the difference between telling a horror story later and not getting the chance.

Sounds like if anybody has a fighting chance, it's this particular diver. Hoping for a miracle.

[kschoonover]

Do you know how long she has been a diver and if the condition was present before she was certified?

For you medical professionals, could this be something like valvular regurgitation?

I'm not sure how much diving she's done but I know she did have the problem before she ever got certified.

[robint]

More information I received today - cannot verify its accuracy, as it comes to me via an acquaintance who heard it from his friend who works for the dive operation. (Keep that in mind, as some important details differ from other stories.)

The diver was a certified diver with 9 dives under her belt and her husband, also certified, had 5. About ten minutes into the dive, she signaled to her husband that she was having a problem with her ears and he told her to surface. He did not go with her. They did not notify the DM at that time (??) When they gathered to ascend as a group at the end of the dive, during the safety stop the DM asked the husband where his wife was, and he indicated she had already gone up. When they all got on board, the husband asked the captain where his wife was. That's when they realized they had a missing diver.

I was completely wrong to assume that the missing diver was a "Discover SCUBA" diver. Mea culpa.

IF this story is true, then the husband obviously should not have told his wife to go up OR he should have notified the DM that they were both going up OR worst case, he should have at least gone with her.

This is heartbreaking. But it also shows that when you're a new diver, you don't necessarily know what you don't know. I've learned a lot from the mistakes I've made. Luckily, I survived some of my more egregious errors to become a better diver. (Still lots of mistakes ahead of me, I'm sure.) Something like a changing current or downdraft can make the difference between telling a horror story later and not getting the chance.

Sounds like if anybody has a fighting chance, it's this particular diver. Hoping for a miracle.

Now we have a 4th account of what happened.
This one, like the first 2, says the dive buddy-husband did not go up with her, but at the end of dive with the rest of group.

[boulderjohn]

More information I received today - cannot verify its accuracy, as it comes to me via an acquaintance who heard it from his friend who works for the dive operation. (Keep that in mind, as some important details differ from other stories.)


This version is extremely different from the one we are getting from a family member. A wise thing to do now would be avoid any hasty comments.

[Gdog]

This version is extremely different from the one we are getting from a family member. A wise thing to do now would be avoid any hasty comments.

I completely agree.

[rkfatheree]

This version is extremely different from the one we are getting from a family member. A wise thing to do now would be avoid any hasty comments.

Yes. That's why I noted my source.

I think all of us know that something similar could happen to us or someone we love, so we're trying to find out what went wrong. As I said before, yesterday afternoon, for the first time on this trip, our DM made sure everyone had a BSM - something that might have helped the missing diver or at least could help other divers avoid the same situation.

[DandyDon]

We often tell newer divers that it's good to hire a private DM for their first Coz divers, but I doubt the cruise ships ever suggest that.

[boulderjohn]

Just to keep things in perspective when analyzing a source, let's look at this sentence:

as it comes to me via an acquaintance who heard it from his friend who works for the dive operation.

At the best, it is 4th hand information: 1) someone heard it from a 2) friend who heard it from 3) someone in the dive operation who heard it from ???) [I don't know how many steps until you get to the DM].

How many details could have been misunderstood in that chain?

[cvchief]

I personally don't blame the DM or anyone for what happened, I just want her to be found.

My prayers are with you on that. Please don't take any of my comments as any reflection on this incident. I don't know what happened here and I know nothing about this dive master. I was speaking generally on my thoughts on Coz DMs and the good care they give their divers.

[gypsyjim]

So you place blame on the DM for this? Seems that's what you're saying.
If the DM is responsible as you seem to suggest then they should require a skills test before the dive. It's only fair.

My placing at least a share of the responsibility on the DM was based on the accounts as they were being discussed, at that time. A DM shepherding a flock of new divers does have responsibility for monitoring and overseeing the safety of the divers he has under his care. He is not just a tour guide in such circumstance, IMO.
Obviously, if some of the info that is coming in now is true, it would effect that entire concept of any failure of responsibility, and point to an accident he may have had no way of monitoring.

If, as the family is saying above, the DM was notified of the diver's ascent by her buddy (husband), who then also made his ascent, the DM would be in effect releasing the buddy pair. That is a very different scenario from the DM losing track of one of his charges completely.

Very different.


She was with her husband. She told her husband she needed to go to the surface. Her husband let the instructor know then headed up himself but when he reached the surface he couldn't find her. The current was part of the problem.

This points out how early reports are so often incorrect, and much of the discussion as we have been having here, before the true facts are known, is pure speculation. We are all wishing for the best outcome, and hoping to use any of these scares to learn/teach/inform each other, to improve the safety of our sport for all.


Is the normal current north to south or south to north.... Trying to picture it....

Sarge


Sarge
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


She was buddied up with her husband not a stranger. She told her husband she needed to go to the surface. Her husband let the DM know then headed up himself but when he reached the surface he couldn't find her. The current was part of the problem. They did inform the DM she needed to go up.And they bought most of their gear so none of these assumptions are actually true.

We wish her, and your family the very best outcome.

[Archhill Divers]

We have been diving Coz all week and the currents are unpredictable day to day. We were diving just north of Santa Rosa Wall on that day of the incident and our dive boat was involved in picking up some of the divers from the boat involved in the incident. It was definetly an eye opener about how easy a dive can turn bad in a moment. We were able to help 3 divers out of the water to wait for their boat to pick them up, but there was a big distance between the groups. This week the deep currents have been strong and I would advise to stay shallow unless you are an expert at strong current drift dives, if it is new to you, STAY SHALLOW. Our thoughts are with the divers loved ones and with all the dive community, we all are one.

[Annan]

I, too, am wishing the diver's friends and family the very best outcome. Being a retired army vet may well give her an important advantage in this situation.

Unfortunately, we may never know exactly what actually happened in this (or any other traumatic) situation. Everyone sees events from a different perspective. Everyone remembers and interprets events differently.

I was on a cert dive with a friend several years ago. I was accompanying her on her first open water dive. Another diver in the party panicked and attempted to surface by herself. Our DM instructed us to hover below as he followed her to make sure she was safely back on the boat. I was incredulous upon hearing her account of the incident afterward ... an incident that I observed from beginning to end while hovering 30' below her. The diver simply didn't remember any of her panicked behaviors afterward.

As we hear various different accounts of this tragedy, we need to remember that our minds play tricks on us. Especially in emergencies.

I appreciate the efforts everyone is making to understand what went wrong in this situation. I have personally experienced flukey currents on Santa Rosa wall and elsewhere in Cozumel. I have also been with friends and family who have had to surface due to ear problems. I can easily envision that combination being deadly. Imagining that this diver could have been one of my loved ones simply breaks my heart.

[suprane]

For you medical professionals, could this be something like valvular regurgitation?

Yes. That is consistent with what she is describing.

[rkfatheree]

Just to keep things in perspective when analyzing a source, let's look at this sentence:

as it comes to me via an acquaintance who heard it from his friend who works for the dive operation.

At the best, it is 4th hand information: 1) someone heard it from a 2) friend who heard it from 3) someone in the dive operation who heard it from ???) [I don't know how many steps until you get to the DM].

How many details could have been misunderstood in that chain?


That's why I spelled it out - so people would weigh the value of my information given how I got it. I don't want anyone taking my story as gospel, because there's too much room for misunderstanding or (mis)interpretation. And the story I heard certainly makes the DM look less culpable, which could be due to the source.

[Annan]

Diving with a private DM is an excellent idea, particularly in Cozumel. Drift diving in Coz is fabulous, but as you can see from this thread it can also be unpredictable and unexpectedly dangerous.

Dive masters are our first line of defense between life and death. If you can afford to dive, you can afford a private DM.

It's a better experience for everyone involved and you are also supporting the local dive economy. Just do it!

[Jax]

I'm just not seeing culpable anything.

A buddy pair says they are going up. In the time it takes to tell the DM, to the time he made the surface, our lady disappeared.

[speculation]

Could there have been another medical problem? Heart Attack; or Immursion Pulmonary Edmea, or a mitral valve prolapse incident. Those few seconds, when eye contact was lost, led to her becoming lost.

[/speculations]


Some lessons learned - carry a Surface Marker Buoy, and know how to use it. Carry a signal mirror, and know how to use it. Carry a real audio alert device (vice the whistle on BCs).

[DandyDon]

Some lessons learned - carry a Surface Marker Buoy, and know how to use it. Carry a signal mirror, and know how to use it. Carry a real audio alert device (vice the whistle on BCs).
Yes, we share those good ideas with others here, but there is only so much that Instructors can teach in OW - yet they tell new divers they are ready for the sea. Hoping a cruise boat with a paper C-card is all too common, rental gear, weight guessing, little to no experience, no good signaling devices, and so on. I wish Insts would encourage newbies to hire private DMs more. I wish my Inst had told me that back then; I felt quite confident, but I was just starting to learn.

[suprane]

To me this is all starting to sound a lot like the speculation and conjecture that surrounded the early thraeds after the the Scuba Mau incident.... A lot of theories, finger pointing, and lots and lots of wild speculation! And we all saw how totally wrong most of that was! I would think the prudent thing to do would be to wait till the facts are sorted out and brought to light. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen.

[Jax]

To me this is all starting to sound a lot like the speculation and conjecture that surrounded the early thraeds after the the Scuba Mau incident.... A lot of theories, finger pointing, and lots and lots of wild speculation! And we all saw how totally wrong most of that was! I would think the prudent thing to do would be to wait till the facts are sorted out and brought to light. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen.

Actually, AFAIR, that isn't true. The first reports of bounce diving, the depth incurred, and the horrible outcomes were right on target. It wasn't until [-]Keith[/-] Heath came in and tried to tell his lies that any "muddying" of the waters happened.

As far as waiting until the facts are "sorted out and brought to light", that simply does not happen in most of these threads. We never get a final report, and the only lessons learned are drawn from speculation.

Also, the worst thing one can do is to try and squash speculation. That immediately rebounds with charges of cover-up and distrust of the parties concerned. One should ascertain the facts, and report them, and address that which can be done in light of whatever information is released. -- US Army Management Staff College, Handling Media and Information Management.

[CheddarChick]

I hope for the best for you and your family K...

[JamesK]

That's all my step dad has told me. They still haven't been able to find her & my step dad had to get off the cruise ship & stay there till they can find her. She's retired from the army so hopefully she's able to take care of herself. Last she was seen, she was heading to the surface, no one knows if she ever made it or what happened to her.

---------- Post added at 05:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 PM ----------



I'm her daughter

I don't really know how to say what I want to, because while I am normally very good with words, things like this are difficult for me. My prayers are with you and your family at this time. As a currently serving soldier in the Army, this is somewhat personal for me. I hope for the best and pray that your family and your mother have the strength to get through this.

[DiverG]

Actually, AFAIR, that isn't true. The first reports of bounce diving, the depth incurred, and the horrible outcomes were right on target. It wasn't until Keith came in and tried to tell his lies that any "muddying" of the waters happened.

As far as waiting until the facts are "sorted out and brought to light", that simply does not happen in most of these threads. We never get a final report, and the only lessons learned are drawn from speculation.

Also, the worst thing one can do is to try and squash speculation. That immediately rebounds with charges of cover-up and distrust of the parties concerned. One should ascertain the facts, and report them, and address that which can be done in light of whatever information is released. -- US Army Management Staff College, Handling Media and Information Management.

His name is Heath not Keith.

[boulderjohn]

Actually, AFAIR, that isn't true. The first reports of bounce diving, the depth incurred, and the horrible outcomes were right on target. It wasn't until Keith came in and tried to tell his lies that any "muddying" of the waters happened.


As someone who was intimately involved in that thread from the start, I will argue that there was a whole lot of misinformation thrown at us from the very beginning, and it took a long time to get the truth out.

[awap]

To me this is all starting to sound a lot like the speculation and conjecture that surrounded the early thraeds after the the Scuba Mau incident.... A lot of theories, finger pointing, and lots and lots of wild speculation! And we all saw how totally wrong most of that was! I would think the prudent thing to do would be to wait till the facts are sorted out and brought to light. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen.

No it won't unless potential customers press, and press hard, for such information. People with information are not providing it in the hope that this too will just blow over.

[Queen Triggerfish]

I personally don't blame the DM or anyone for what happened, I just want her to be found.

Please know that there are a whole lot of us wanting that with you. It sounds like she is a very strong woman. Thanks for sharing your story with us.

[Oceanfreak]

At least twice that I remember, we were diving and the currents was going south to north....we got to the end of the reef and the currents actually changed in the opposite direction and we went all the way back south. On another dive, it did the same thing, but it changed directions 3 times. It was totally weird, but we got to see more of the reef. I sure didn't have any complaints.
One more thing...when the wife surfaced, I'm wondering if she did a safety stop? Maybe she didn't and surfaced too fast and passed out.

[Firefyter]

Of course maybe I am spoiled? Anyone else think their Coz DM is just a tour guide?


It's not a matter of being spoiled or not, it's more a matter of preference. You prefer to be close to them, and I prefer to be left alone. No big deal, just different approaches. By not having to worry about me, it frees the DM to help those who need his help or those who are more comfortable having him close by. We all go home happy this way.


If divers went all over the place on their own, it would be extremely difficult for the boats to find them all, and there would be lost divers bobbing around all over the place.

The Cozumel DM really has to make sure the group stays together to the extent that they can be found at the end of the dive.

This, IMHO, is site dependant. In isolated sites where there are no other boats, we most definitely stick pretty close together. We may not all come up together, but we're within sight. At Barracuda, we all descend together and we all ascend together, for obvious reasons.

On other sites with heavier traffic, it's pretty common for us to come up fairly long distances apart. There have been lots of times where the first divers have come up after ~30-40 minutes, and some of us have stayed down an hour or more. We don't worry about this as much because the odds of being seen and picked up by someone are pretty heavy in our favor. So far, its always been our own boat, but there are others there if we need them, and they are always happy to help. We also carry 6' SMBs to help us be seen.

YMMV

[Jax]

Question for you Cozmelites . . .

Does anyone know what the currents were doing yesterday? The common South to North, or were there eddies and swirls?

[cvchief]

It's not a matter of being spoiled or not, it's more a matter of preference. You prefer to be close to them, and I prefer to be left alone. No big deal, just different approaches. By not having to worry about me, it frees the DM to help those who need his help or those who are more comfortable having him close by. We all go home happy this way.


Not at all, my red truck friend. I said I prefer a DM that watches their charges as they need to be watched or at least that is what I meant. When I was new, I was WATCHED. As I should have been. If I felt like I knew it all back then fresh outta class and wanted to be left alone, it would have been poor form, in my opinion, to let me go off and be dangerous. Now she watches me less as she doesn't need to. I don't stay that close. In fact I have been convicted of felony lollygagging with my camera behind the group more than once.

You don't let your little red hats go running willy nilly with the knob until you know they know what they are doing right? The white hats better be keeping a closer eye on them?

Your DM shouldn't stop worrying about you until they know they can stop worrying about you, I think. A C-card and bravado is not the same as knowing what you are doing. I have seen divers show up who acted experienced but sure didn't look that way underwater.

[suprane]

As someone who was intimately involved in that thread from the start, I will argue that there was a whole lot of misinformation thrown at us from the very beginning, and it took a long time to get the truth out.

You're absolutely right! And a lot of posters began to get VERY hot and rather obnoxious and vocal in their opinions!.... And, yes, the truth did eventually come out.

[Firefyter]

Not at all, my red truck friend. I said I prefer a DM that watches their charges as they need to be watched or at least that is what I meant. When I was new, I was WATCHED. As I should have been. If I felt like I knew it all back then fresh outta class and wanted to be left alone, it would have been poor form, in my opinion, to let me go off and be dangerous. Now she watches me less as she doesn't need to. I don't stay that close. In fact I have been convicted of felony lollygagging with my camera behind the group more than once.

You don't let your little red hats go running willy nilly with the knob until you know they know what they are doing right? The white hats better be keeping a closer eye on them?

Your DM shouldn't stop worrying about you until they know they can stop worrying about you, I think. A C-card and bravado is not the same as knowing what you are doing. I have seen divers show up who acted experienced but sure didn't look that way underwater.

We're in complete agreement here, we were just phrasing it differently. I've said pretty much what you said here earlier in another post (maybe even in another thread). Cross posting between threads is starting to get me lost. I'm on the back side of a 48 hour shift, and I aint as sharp as I usually am ;)

[cvchief]

We're in complete agreement here, we were just phrasing it differently. I've said pretty much what you said here earlier in another post (maybe even in another thread). Cross posting between threads is starting to get me lost. I'm on the back side of a 48 hour shift, and I aint as sharp as I usually am ;)

I should have taken the other test and got to sleep 1/3 of my career..... :)

[scurbswife]

Robin, were you here in cozumel during this time. I am sorry but reading what you have posted really makes me angry!! You have no idea what is going on here! I am a fairly new diver and was here in cozumel 2 months ago and was certified the waters here then were beautiful, dives were beautiful no trouble with the currants. My husband and I decided to come back and bring our son, we are here now and although we were not with the group of the missing, we were out in the same area. Things went bad in a matter of minutes for alot of divers, very experienced divers and the less experienced. My DM told me to go up when he realized there were 2 divers in trouble and he had to go to 165ft to rescue one, get him to the surface and go back down for another at 165ft. My son and my husband were taken down to 150ft, it was a down currant and before anyone realized it you were being taken down, all of our divers returned to the surface but my husband and son we a drift for about 10 minutes before another boat which was the boat from the missing diver that radioed and let our boat know of my husband and sons where abouts. It was a very hard day for all involved. Our boat did assist in looking for the missing diver, I hope she is found, and my heart is very heavy for her family, I have done nothing but think of them today.
I will apologize to anyone that I offend but it really is bugging me that all the assumptions going on on this thread, when you have no idea of the situation!!!

[pjhansman]

Question for you Cozmelites . . .

Does anyone know what the currents were doing yesterday? The common South to North, or were there eddies and swirls?

We did 2 dives yesterday morning (including Santa Rosa Wall) and the currents were slow and the "normal" South to North.

[mdax]

If you dive alone you may die alone. Either take that risk and deal with your decision, hire a private DM or ensure your buddy is solid.
In coz every diver needs to have an smb, in cocos/galapagos bring a raft (http://www.halcyon.net/?q=node/11) and survival supplies. Individual responsibility is the name of the game once you enter the water, depending on a DM to "watch you" or corral an entire group is foolhardy.

[Tigerman]

...
I am surprised that an SMB is not required in Cozumel. If the government will not require it, I would think it would be easy for the dive operator to require it.
...

With the ammount of dive shops in areas like cozumel, its easy to require more from your guests... if you want to go bust.
People in general are lazy and cheap and go for the easiest, cheapest option rather than the best, more expensive one..

Also, if you supply the equipment, the guests still need to know how to use it. Its not like having your guests tangled in line is a good thing either.

[Jim Baldwin]

Hey guys, we all know what a trying time this is for all concerned. I'll start by saying how sorry I am for the family and that my thoughts and prayers are with them. I have read 11 pages to date of posts of caring SB members. Some of us are starting to wander off into subjects that have been discussed and beaten to death. Bringing them back up at this date offers no solutions except to open old wounds. Please continue to express your thoughts of concern for this family and update us if you have any new first hand information (NOT SPECULATION).

This backbiting does not show the true community of Cozumel divers. I hope that this gets this thread back on topic. So lets get back to what we do best. Show this family the love and caring of the Cozumel community when we are searching for one of our own.

[Randy43068]

My comments in reply to the postings where the suggestion that the DM is immediately at fault. Without knowing more it's not helpful to say it's the DMs fault. Can we agree on that?

Your point is well taken. How many people were on the dive? How many DMs were there? Why was he hired? I'm not at all saying that if the DM was hired as a guide he should ignore any emergent situation that arises and continue on being a guide. Let's not get too deep into the hypothetical of emergent situations in this particular situation.

I'll say it again, we cannot simply lay blame on the DM as was mentioned previously.




Randy,

I disagree. My Coz DM isn't there to just point stuff out. And having seen alot of divers coming back after a few years and those with only cert dives under their weight belts, they HAVE to look out for the group. In a perfect world every buddy team would be capable of handing every event on their own. I sure wasn't until I had some dive in. Until I did, my DM was keeping an extra eye on me. I see that same treatment to those rusty or new divers. I think most of the good DMs do that. I mean they all have to deal with those kind of divers.

As to the choice: If I am convulsing and losing my reg, my DM darn well should come handle me, because I am THE MOST at risk at that moment. If a diver is surfacing, that diver is the MOST at risk until sighted by the boat. I can't imagine most Coz DMs would just let someone wander to the surface on their own. They could get lost or run over. None of that is good for their business.

Of course maybe I am spoiled? Anyone else think their Coz DM is just a tour guide?


My thoughts and prayers go out to the family.

---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------

Jim, speculation is helpful. It helps all of sort out what is possible and what is probable for going wrong wrong on a dive.

If we follow your advice, there is nothing more to be said and you may as well close the thread.

[scurbswife]

We did 2 dives yesterday morning (including Santa Rosa Wall) and the currents were slow and the "normal" South to North.

Not sure what time you did the Santa Rosa Wall, but that was our first dive yesterday (around 9:30 -10:00) and we all experienced a very bad down currant, It took 2 divers to 165ft and my husband and son were taken to 150ft. There were so many divers coming up and floating in the ocean looking for their boats, It was a very scary situation, one I never want to experience again!

[DandyDon]

Not sure what time you did the Santa Rosa Wall, but that was our first dive yesterday (around 9:30 -10:00) and we all experienced a very bad down currant, It took 2 divers to 165ft and my husband and son were taken to 150ft. There were so many divers coming up and floating in the ocean looking for their boats, It was a very scary situation, one I never want to experience again!
It can change in minutes.

San Juan islands in Puget Sound gets wild currents with tidal changes daily. I remember my last dive there, the second time I lost my buddy, surfacing, seeing him getting swept to my left as I was getting pushed right, and the big dive boat twirling in the middle of the channel. Rapids were seen and more. I guess all bays and sounds get this to some extent. Similar yet different from competing currents in Coz channel this week, downdwellings and updwellings included.

[Brules]

I could do with a lot less of the arguing and pissing contests and more about what is being done to find this lady. Save the stupid ass arguing for the A&I thread. Lets show some support for the divers family and leave the rest of the crap for later.

[Peter_C]

There were so many divers coming up and floating in the ocean looking for their boats, It was a very scary situation, one I never want to experience again!

I am amazed no one has brought it up yet...

119908

More info here:
Nautilus Lifeline (http://www.alertdiver.com/?articleNo=480)

[DandyDon]

Next trip, I am supplying several tank analyzers as before, but I think it's time my home bud supply something extra - like renting a PLB & Dive Canister. PLB Rental | ACR ResQlink and Aqualink (http://www.oerentals.com/plbrental.html)

[jd950]

Having dealt with the current and downwelling issues this week, and having spent some time floating in the boat channel waiting for a ride, I was glad to have my SMB and I am an even bigger proponent of every diver having their own smb than I was before. I also think divers diving in a location where certain conditions are known to occur, such as unexpected currents, rapid current shifts, downwellings, etc., it is incumbent on divers to understand these conditions and be "prepared" for them in the sense of understanding how to respond. I also think dive ops should consider addressing such issues in briefings.

With that said, my general belief is that if you are diving Coz and for some reason end up floating on the surface alone, you are going to be found if a search occurs. The ones who are not found either did not make it to the surface, or for some reason failed to inflate their BC once there. In such circumstances, the diver is likely not going to be found. Perhaps I am mistaken in this, but pending contrary information from experts on the subject, that is my belief based on past trips, past events I have read about and my own experiences here this past week.

The loss of a diver this week is sad and I feel for the family. Frankly, I think we are lucky there were not more.

FWIW, I understand DAN has had a number of calls from Cozumel in the past several days and there are at least a couple people doing chamber time that may be attributable in some measure to the conditions here lately. Being lost is not the only risk with the conditions we have been seeing.

[Coz I Like It]

To Tigerman - SMB (only) is being suggested for all divers for use once on the surface. NOT with a reel and 100 ft. of line.

Crazy stuff - had an O ring blow at 55 ft yesterday. Went up, DM followed and we waited for boat, switched tanks and rejoined our group and continued dive.

Hoping for a good result for this family - search continues today

[Darol]

Brules said:

I could do with a lot less of the arguing and pissing contests and more about what is being done to find this lady. Save the stupid ass arguing for the A&I thread. Lets show some support for the divers family and leave the rest of the crap for later.


Well said, Prayers for the Family...... and those searching....

[pjhansman]

Not sure what time you did the Santa Rosa Wall, but that was our first dive yesterday (around 9:30 -10:00) and we all experienced a very bad down currant, It took 2 divers to 165ft and my husband and son were taken to 150ft. There were so many divers coming up and floating in the ocean looking for their boats, It was a very scary situation, one I never want to experience again!

I was in from 8:20 until 9:15am. Gives a good indication how fast the currents can change.

[gypsyjim]

My comments in reply to the postings where the suggestion that the DM is immediately at fault. Without knowing more it's not helpful to say it's the DMs fault. Can we agree on that?

Your point is well taken. How many people were on the dive? How many DMs were there? Why was he hired? I'm not at all saying that if the DM was hired as a guide he should ignore any emergent situation that arises and continue on being a guide. Let's not get too deep into the hypothetical of emergent situations in this particular situation.

I'll say it again, we cannot simply lay blame on the DM as was mentioned previously.





---------- Post added at 11:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------

Jim, speculation is helpful. It helps all of sort out what is possible and what is probable for going wrong wrong on a dive.

If we follow your advice, there is nothing more to be said and you may as well close the thread.

Rather than close the thread, why not keep the speculation to a minimum until we have more facts to go with? We can show both concern for the diver, and support for the family involved without spreading unfounded rumors, based on 4th, 5th hand reports, by those who have no actual knowledge of the event to offer, and then running with those wild speculations, as if they WERE relevant facts.

[pidgiepoo]

Next trip, I am supplying several tank analyzers as before, but I think it's time my home bud supply something extra - like renting a PLB & Dive Canister. PLB Rental | ACR ResQlink and Aqualink (http://www.oerentals.com/plbrental.html)

I'm getting one..should I get this one or the Nautilus ? I'm not familiar with either..but this brand seems to do the same thing and is cheaper. HELP ! :)

[gypsyjim]

I have to admit that my earlier comments were purely speculative, and based on those same 4th hand "reports". Bad me.

[Randy43068]

Point taken, and agreed.


I could do with a lot less of the arguing and pissing contests and more about what is being done to find this lady. Save the stupid ass arguing for the A&I thread. Lets show some support for the divers family and leave the rest of the crap for later.

[Dan G]

Here is a link to the A & I thread that has been started on the same incident.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/415495-diver-lost-cozumel-today.html

[DandyDon]

I'm getting one..should I get this one or the Nautilus ? I'm not familiar with either..but this brand seems to do the same thing and is cheaper. HELP ! :)
No, the Nautilus lets you talk to nearby boats and give them your GPS, I think. The PLB activates an international system that could take longer - or do more, depending on views. You can read up more on both, but my preferences for the PLB would be based on the choice of renting for a week, or buying to use on the backroad and trail hikes I do as well as the ocean. For diving, the dive canister would also be required I think.

[Ron Lee]

To me this is all starting to sound a lot like the speculation and conjecture that surrounded the early thraeds after the the Scuba Mau incident.... A lot of theories, finger pointing, and lots and lots of wild speculation! And we all saw how totally wrong most of that was! I would think the prudent thing to do would be to wait till the facts are sorted out and brought to light. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen.

The initial Scuba Mau posts were partly erroneous due to an attempt (my opinion) of one of the participants to hide the facts. This led to the "fear" of down currents. What eventually came out as factual was that the initial reports did not indicate how screwed up that dive plan was.

I make periodic counts of other divers in my group. It is not every 30 seconds so someone could disappear between counts. But it is one more layer to keep track of people.

My take away from this event is that if I observe a diver going up alone, I am following. First priority is to maintain visual contact/close physical proximity at all times.

Second/third/fourth as appropriate priority is to notify the DM. (Notifying the DM is secondary to any other efforts needed to attend to the surfacing diver). Based upon that, I need to always take my tank banger. Trying to catch up to the DM to notify him risks violating priority one (keep the ascending diver in sight and close).

This concept also applies to newish buddy teams. If the divers involved had ten or less dives, they were newbies and needed assistance. At the least they could benefit by having someone with far more dives (especially in Cozumel) monitor the situation until they were on a boat.

Once they are on a boat and safe, I may or may not continue the dive.

[boulderjohn]

With the ammount of dive shops in areas like cozumel, its easy to require more from your guests... if you want to go bust.
People in general are lazy and cheap and go for the easiest, cheapest option rather than the best, more expensive one..

Also, if you supply the equipment, the guests still need to know how to use it. Its not like having your guests tangled in line is a good thing either.

Let's see, at the discount an operator gets, it might cost $100 to outfit a 6-pack boat with enough spare SMBs to outfit every diver who might not come equipped with one. Kept on board and rarely needed, they would last for years. Maybe it's because I am not a retailer, but I just find it hard to believe that an investment like that would force an operator into bankruptcy. If they were to charge a $1 rental fee, I think they would pay for the whole lot in no time without driving customers away with such an exorbitant increase in costs. If they require them and offer them for sale as an option, the profits from just a couple such sales would take care of the overhead for the rentals.

The operator I use in Cozumel requires a computer, and they have expensive parkas on board to keep guests warm. The last time I checked, they were still in business.

As for knowing how to deploy one, if you are on the surface, it is pretty darn simple. It only becomes problematic if you feel a need to deploy it at depth with a spool or reel.

[rkfatheree]

Calculating business lost when a customer gets lost, it seems like a sound investment. I understand newbies thinking "It couldn't happen to me", but I don't understand boat captains and DMs with that attitude.

[VooDooGasMan]

Cozumel has been loosing divers for years and always will, Either put a tether on the divers or after two hours of ascent in water have a device that auto fills BC so diver is on surface, after 5 hours weights turn hot and burn attachment do diver comes to surface.

In other words lets come up of a solution instead of blame on diver or dive operator (captain's and DM's)

[markmantei]

As I believe another poster mentioned, SMB's were required equipment for diving on the great barrier reef in australia (if you didn't own one, it was provided). It is just as, if not more, important when drift diving. You don't need a $100+ SMB for each diver, there are several available for < $30 retail like this one: Akona Safety Sausage (SMB) AKT109 with reviews at scuba.com (http://www.scuba.com/scuba-gear-117/131407/Akona-Safety-Sausage-SMB.html)

Once again it comes down to should ops supply SMB's? Maybe. Should every diver own one, certainly. If you can afford to spend $$$ on masks, fins, and snorkels (useless IMO for drift dives off a boat, but that's another discussion altogether), not to mention bigger $ on regs, bc's, etc. an extra few dollars on some basic safety gear should not be an issue. In the end it all comes down to personal responsibilty. The problem is that what you don't know can kill you, and a newbie may not even be aware what safety gear they should have if it wasn't covered (or stressed) in their training.

---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 AM ----------

Does anyone carry sea dye? A SMB can help a nearby boat to locate you, but after drifting for hours, something more easily spotted from the air would be a big help.

[pidgiepoo]

No, the Nautilus lets you talk to nearby boats and give them your GPS, I think. The PLB activates an international system that could take longer - or do more, depending on views. You can read up more on both, but my preferences for the PLB would be based on the choice of renting for a week, or buying to use on the backroad and trail hikes I do as well as the ocean. For diving, the dive canister would also be required I think.

Don't forget to rent the gold cannister,too. :) Apparently, the PLB is only waterproof to 20' without the cannister.

[cicopo]

"Does anyone carry sea dye?"

I've been thinking that might be another good thing to carry but I don't ever remember seeing it in stores. I don't imagine that it's that expensive when compared to how much better you'd be seen from the air or the upper area of a ship.

[scubafanatic]

Okay... this new information from kschoovoner is very confusing for me, a regular diver in Cozumel.
If the husband started up right after her, why didn't he see her on his way up?
If current was the issue, then was it pushing out or across or down?
Why is it he didn't notice she wasn't around only when he reached the surface?
Even in the worst vis I have ever seen in Cozumel, I could always see other divers going up, and boats at the surface.

I don't mean to sound callous, as I am sure none of the other posters here want to appear, we are just trying to understand since this is the 3rd story of what happened we have now heard in 24 hours.

robin

robin, during my 02/06 Coz trip (a few months after hurricane Wilma) my group ended up doing some dives under 'white out' conditions, I LITERALLY held my dive buddy's arm to avoid losing her amid the insane sandstorms we encountered, sand was smothering the reefs and blowing about like snow drifts, we aborted some dives because the vis was 2 - 3 ft !

[Ron Lee]

I just thought of a new scenario. The group I am in passes or is passed by another group. During that co-mingling encounter, one of the other group's divers ascends alone. This becomes more complicated since I have no idea whether they are just starting a dive or ending it.

My current thought is that if a diver is seen alone going up, part of my group or not, the assumption will be that they are a novice and I will assist them getting safely on a boat.

It is not my job to do that but with this being the third case of a diver going up alone in the recent past, and ending up missing/dead, it is the right thing to do if the situation ever arises.

It is clear that you cannot assume that a person going to the surface alone (or with another newbie buddy) is competent to survive what is usually a benign environment.

[Dirty-Dog]

I just thought of a new scenario. The group I am in passes or is passed by another group. During that co-mingling encounter, one of the other group's divers ascends alone. This becomes more complicated since I have no idea whether they are just starting a dive or ending it.

My current thought is that if a diver is seen alone going up, part of my group or not, the assumption will be that they are a novice and I will assist them getting safely on a boat.

It is not my job to do that but with this being the third case of a diver going up alone in the recent past, and ending up missing/dead, it is the right thing to do if the situation ever arises.

It is clear that you cannot assume that a person going to the surface alone (or with another newbie buddy) is competent to survive what is usually a benign environment.


This is not at all far fetched. When we were on Coz in December, our group was passed by another. Why they were in such a hurry I do not know...
In any case, one of our divers started to follow them. Had this gone unnoticed, it could have led to all kinds of confusion.

[kwinter]

Very typical of these threads. Blame first and then apologize later for your callous remarks.
She was at fault.
No, the husband was at fault.
Its the DM's fault.
It's the boat captain's fault.
The dive operator is terrible.
That cruise line really sucks.

Sheesh...... Don't people realize how hurtful these comments can be on an open internet forum? Once you post it, the damage is done and no amount of backtracking can undo the pain you caused. Why is human nature so interested in assigning blame?

There is no blame to be assigned until the FACTS are known. There are prayers and good wishes that can be offered. Hope that can be conveyed. And lessons that can be learned. I think it took at least 8 pages of posts before anyone mentioned the need to ALWAYS carry a SMB and audio alert device. A mirror (an old CD works well) is a nice addition. And then finally someone mentioned electronic devices like the Nautilus Lifeline or a PLB.

If you come here to learn, post something useful or don't post at all. If you come here to bash others to make yourself feel important, then just go away.

[Jax]

Very typical of these threads. Blame first and then apologize later for your callous remarks.
She was at fault.
No, the husband was at fault.
Its the DM's fault.
It's the boat captain's fault.
The dive operator is terrible.
That cruise line really sucks.

Sheesh...... Don't people realize how hurtful these comments can be on an open internet forum? Once you post it, the damage is done and no amount of backtracking can undo the pain you caused. Why is human nature so interested in assigning blame?

There is no blame to be assigned until the FACTS are known. There are prayers and good wishes that can be offered. Hope that can be conveyed. And lessons that can be learned. I think it took at least 8 pages of posts before anyone mentioned the need to ALWAYS carry a SMB and audio alert device. A mirror (an old CD works well) is a nice addition. And then finally someone mentioned electronic devices like the Nautilus Lifeline or a PLB.

If you come here to learn, post something useful or don't post at all. If you come here to bash others to make yourself feel important, then just go away.

WHOA!!! Can we back up a little here? CDs are NOT as good as a signal mirror.

For those of you who really want to know about signal devices, PLEASE visit this thread:


http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/general-scuba-equipment-discussions/211950-best-signalling-equipment-searchers-point-view.html



Please take note of this line in that link: effectiveness is more than doubled if the searchers know you have the equipment. I brief every DM on what I have. They seem to think I'm funny, but if I'm lost, they know to look for the 7'SMB, signal mirror, and listen for an air horn.

[cvchief]

I think it took at least 8 pages of posts before anyone mentioned the need to ALWAYS carry a SMB and audio alert device. A mirror (an old CD works well) is a nice addition. And then finally someone mentioned electronic devices like the Nautilus Lifeline or a PLB. .

Perhaps because the facts as presented done lend themselves to a signalling issue? Was it ever confirmed that this incident would have had anything to do with signalling devices? My understanding is we don't know what happened after she started for the surface. Hence, I thought the discussion on what a DM's responsibilities are and private DMs and all that was spot on. With more facts, perhaps the signalling information will become more relevant than the DM and diver responsibility discussions?

[suprane]

"Does anyone carry sea dye?"

I've been thinking that might be another good thing to carry but I don't ever remember seeing it in stores. I don't imagine that it's that expensive when compared to how much better you'd be seen from the air or the upper area of a ship.

Here you go! scubatoys.com (http://www.scubatoys.com/) Located right here in Texas, they will be happy to set you right up for less than $10 (well, add shipping to that!). And in a canister rated to 330 ft!... Now that was easy! :D

OMS_Dye_Marker (http://www.scubatoys.com/store/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=OMSDyeMarker) 119966

[suprane]

robin, during my 02/06 Coz trip (a few months after hurricane Wilma) my group ended up doing some dives under 'white out' conditions, I LITERALLY held my dive buddy's arm to avoid losing her amid the insane sandstorms we encountered, sand was smothering the reefs and blowing about like snow drifts, we aborted some dives because the vis was 2 - 3 ft !

This happened to us also in 2002 during Hurricane Isidore! It had been predicted to go well east of Coz, but no sooner than we had landed on the island it turned west. We ended up stuck on the island for nearly a week with all air and boat traffic in or out suspended! At one point during a lull in the storm we decided to get in a dive while we thought we could. No sooner than we had rolled off of the boat conditions went totally to crap. I had told the lady I was with (on her first ocean dives!) not to EVER get more than arms link from me and to burn the image of our DM in her mind and not to let him out of her sight! I figure if the stuff really hits the fan the boat crew are more likely to try and rescue their DM/friend than me! So if I am glued to him that increases my survival odds!

Sure enough, it turned to "white-out" with near zero vis very quickly! Divers were scattered all over the place and the DM was banging his tank like mad! We all got back up and on the boat safely, but only after some very scary moments.

[Ron Lee]

Does anyone know if that dye marker can be taken on planes in a carry-on and does it stain once opened?

[suprane]

Does anyone know if that dye marker can be taken on planes in a carry-on and does it stain once opened?

"Yes" to the first question! It is a benign powder. Pack it in with your dive gear (in your check in luggage). And I don't know on the second. I never saw fit to open one and potentially waste it to find out. My guess is though that it probably does!.... But consider what your situation is in the event you need to use it! That will probably be the least of your concerns.

[flots am]

Of course maybe I am spoiled? Anyone else think their Coz DM is just a tour guide?

Yes, but only because enough of them they have proven themselves incompetent (or burned out, overloaded or whatever) that they've created a number of close calls and potentially bad situations for me and my buddy.

If you go by the marketing, they're there to "keep you safe". If you go by reality, you had better be capable of covering your own butt.

flots.

[AggieDiver]

As I said on another thread, the DM's prime responsibility is to the group, not the individual diver. The heirarchy of responsibility for an individual diver is self>buddy>DM. So yes, reality is you should cover your own tail or have a buddy prepared to help you. The DM is not a lifeguard.

[bleeb]

Does anyone here have experience with deploying dye packs in something like a real situation? I never have, but was under the impression that they're mainly visible to aircraft (not boats), and also that they disperse fairly quickly (minutes, if it's choppy or there's a lot of turbulence). Wondering how true this is.

Some may also be interested in the extensive discussion about the effectiveness of different signalling devices: Best signalling equipment from the searchers point of view (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/general-scuba-equipment-discussions/211950-best-signalling-equipment-searchers-point-view.html)

[cicopo]

I just tried to order 4 of them shipped to CANADA. $40 for product, $41 for shipping & I'd get hit with over $40 in brokering fees. IF I can find someone who ships by USPS (not always easy to do) I may order some. Otherwise I'll watch for it in stores here or try to order it from 1. (I'd likely only order 2 but it was just to see how they ship).

THE INFO I've read states they did send a heli out for the search so a dye pack would have been very useful.

[Brules]

No really, is this the place to keep discussing silly stuff? Use the A&I thread or, hey lets make a NEW thread to discuss this stuff (would be a great idea). Lets keep this on topic of this poor families dire situation......I would have lost my mind having all this stupid stuff discussed while my mother is possibly lost or dead.

Keep it classy Scuba Board....


Any new updates? Are they still searching?

[Ron Lee]

Suprane, I travel with CARRY-ON only....no checked luggage. I am curious if this is considered bad by TSA folks with carry-on luggage. No point in buying any if they will be confiscated. I suppose I will have to go to the local airport and ask.

[bubblchsr]

I work with the missing woman's mother. Here's what I have learned:

She only had about 10 dives since being certified. Don't know how she was certified at this point. She was diving with her husband, who had recently been certified. Again, don't know how he was certified, either. She signaled to her husband that she was headed to the surface. As instructed by the DM, he turned to signal the DM that they were going to the surface. When he turned back to her, she was gone. Unknown if she ever made it to the surface. Based on the fact that they haven't found her, it's not likely that she did.

[cvchief]

Yes, but only because enough of them they have proven themselves incompetent (or burned out, overloaded or whatever) that they've created a number of close calls and potentially bad situations for me and my buddy.

If you go by the marketing, they're there to "keep you safe". If you go by reality, you had better be capable of covering your own butt.

flots.

I sort of think it doesn't have to be an 'either or' proposition. Should DMs then say, "heck its the diver and his buddy's responsibility to take care of themselves, so I am ignoring them." Really I think the responsible DM recognizes many divers need to be watched some, so they watch them. Divers realize that some DMs won't look out for them and they should be ready to take care of themselves.

Expecting a either to do their part, doesn't relive the other from their part. Redundancy and a shared responsibility?

[boulderjohn]

To spare the friends and family this thought for the first few days when there was still hope for the search, I did not post this until now.

I know of a very similar situation. An extremely experienced diver signaled that he was having trouble and was gong to the surface. This was not a drift dive, and they were still just doing the descent descent, so there was no possibility of him being lost on the surface. He never made it. It was assumed that he had a heart attack on the way up and drifted away. This scenario is, I am sorry to say, quite possible.

[iluvcozumel]

No they don't.

Firefyter, what if you black out at 100ft?......without a buddy you most likely are going to die.

[kschoonover]

No really, is this the place to keep discussing silly stuff? Use the A&I thread or, hey lets make a NEW thread to discuss this stuff (would be a great idea). Lets keep this on topic of this poor families dire situation......I would have lost my mind having all this stupid stuff discussed while my mother is possibly lost or dead.

Keep it classy Scuba Board....


Any new updates? Are they still searching?

They sent a big dive team down where she originally got lost at but there was no luck. The Coast Guard & Navy are going to search until 10 am tomorrow before they officially call off the search. My step dad filled out a missing persons report today at the police station. After 10 am tomorrow it's left up to chance that the local people might run across her or her body.

[Ron Lee]

I know of a very similar situation. ........ This scenario is, I am sorry to say, quite possible.

Just another example to support the notion that divers going up should do so with a competent buddy. The cases of a fatality are rare, but what if the three recent cases of solo ascending divers in Cozumel would have had a different outcome with an EXPERIENCED diver along. Two newbie divers going up is not my idea of a preferred method.

My suggestion for the experienced divers here is that they be willing to end their dive to support new divers going up early...whether alone or as a buddy pair. That is what I plan on doing if the situation ever occurs.

[islanddream]

Thanks for the update on the search, kschoonover. My prayers are with you and your family. I can't even imagine what everyone must be going through right now. Blessings....

islanddream

[gypsyjim]

Thanks for the update on the search, kschoonover. My prayers are with you and your family. I can't even imagine what everyone must be going through right now. Blessings....

islanddream

I think I can safely say we are all in agreement. Prayers and best wishes in this family's time of need.

[kschoonover]

Thank you very much, it is greatly appreciated

[suprane]

Suprane, I travel with CARRY-ON only....no checked luggage. I am curious if this is considered bad by TSA folks with carry-on luggage. No point in buying any if they will be confiscated. I suppose I will have to go to the local airport and ask.

I can't imagine why it could be a problem. It is not a liquid and it is in no way flammable or caustic. I can't for the life of me see why TSA would have cause to question it. And if they did I would think you could explain to them what it is and why you carry it.

However, having said that, I have seen TSA make some bone-headed calls that left me scratching my head! :confused:

[gypsyjim]

I can't imagine why it could be a problem. It is not a liquid and it is in no way flammable or caustic. I can't for the life of me see why TSA would have cause to question it. And if they did I would think you could explain to them what it is and why you carry it.

However, having said that, I have seen TSA make some bone-headed calls that left me scratching my head! :confused:

I am still trying to understand how TSA thought I might hijack the plane with my copper O ring pick, on my return from Coz last year. http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/images/smilies/More%20Smiles/confused.gif

The recent story of TSA confiscating a small tool from a group of US soldiers returning to the US from Afganastan, while not objecting to the unit carrying their M16's and squad machine guns (unloaded of course) as carry-on, because the tool was considered dangerous, still has me scratching my head.

Back to the discussion about which tools are most effective for being located at sea:

As I recall from my conversations during my recent Coz trip, with 5 of the folks who had the experience of being adrift for 5 1/2 hours after their boat sank, it was a small mirror more than any other safety tool they had with them, that got them located by the searching boats. Their story really gave me a lot to think about, because we all have the attitude that: "it won't happen to me", until it does.

[ggunn]

I can't imagine why it could be a problem. It is not a liquid and it is in no way flammable or caustic. I can't for the life of me see why TSA would have cause to question it. And if they did I would think you could explain to them what it is and why you carry it.
Ah, but grasshopper, the problem is that you are approaching the question logically. :D

[Jax]

Do we have any updates on the search?

[islanddream]

Do we have any updates on the search?

Hi Jax:

I don't know if you saw post #155....that's the lastest.

islanddream

[stevep4444]

They sent a big dive team down where she originally got lost at but there was no luck. The Coast Guard & Navy are going to search until 10 am tomorrow before they officially call off the search. My step dad filled out a missing persons report today at the police station. After 10 am tomorrow it's left up to chance that the local people might run across her or her body.

Thanks for the update. This is a very tragic event. Hopefully she is found very soon!
Be well!

[DandyDon]

I work with the missing woman's mother. Here's what I have learned:

She only had about 10 dives since being certified. Don't know how she was certified at this point. She was diving with her husband, who had recently been certified. Again, don't know how he was certified, either. She signaled to her husband that she was headed to the surface. As instructed by the DM, he turned to signal the DM that they were going to the surface. When he turned back to her, she was gone. Unknown if she ever made it to the surface. Based on the fact that they haven't found her, it's not likely that she did.
Thanks for the info. I am sorry we don't have more for you.

I also agree with Brules that it's be nice if the hypothetical and safety discussion was done on the thread in Accidents forum rather than here, but - well...?


They sent a big dive team down where she originally got lost at but there was no luck. The Coast Guard & Navy are going to search until 10 am tomorrow before they officially call off the search. My step dad filled out a missing persons report today at the police station. After 10 am tomorrow it's left up to chance that the local people might run across her or her body.
It's good that they are making such an effort - doing all they can it sounds.


The recent story of TSA confiscating a small tool from a group of US soldiers returning to the US from Afganastan, while not objecting to the unit carrying their M16's and squad machine guns (unloaded of course) as carry-on, because the tool was considered dangerous, still has me scratching my head.
Since you brought it up, that was a hoax. Some people like to perpetuate them without confirming. See Snopes.

[rkfatheree]

The search continues until 72 hours have elapsed. (Ends tomorrow around 10 am) They can extend it, but they will most likely suspend the search and enter the "passive" stage whence they wait for the diver to appear on her own.

[gypsyjim]

Since you brought it up, that was a hoax. Some people like to perpetuate them without confirming. See Snopes.

Sounds a lot like our media talking heads when you think about it.

[Brules]

They sent a big dive team down where she originally got lost at but there was no luck. The Coast Guard & Navy are going to search until 10 am tomorrow before they officially call off the search. My step dad filled out a missing persons report today at the police station. After 10 am tomorrow it's left up to chance that the local people might run across her or her body.

Sorry you are having to go through this remotely, I can only imagine what her husband is having to deal with down there. :( It may not count for much, but most of us who dive know it is an assumed risk, and it is a very dangerous sport no matter how safe it seems to be. She most likely knew this and still wanted to dive like the rest of us who are in love with the world under the water.

Praying for a miracle still!!!!!!!

[JamesK]

Since you brought it up, that was a hoax. Some people like to perpetuate them without confirming. See Snopes.


While that story is in fact a hoax, I can tell you that when I came back from Iraq we did get searched, and had items we were told we could not take on, even though I was carrying my M249. Most of the stuff they were searching for was a customs search, but they did take our knives.

However, I do not want to derail this thread.

[RTee]

I just tried to order 4 of them shipped to CANADA. $40 for product, $41 for shipping & I'd get hit with over $40 in brokering fees. IF I can find someone who ships by USPS (not always easy to do) I may order some. Otherwise I'll watch for it in stores here or try to order it from 1. (I'd likely only order 2 but it was just to see how they ship).

THE INFO I've read states they did send a heli out for the search so a dye pack would have been very useful.

Get it shipped to the UPS store in Ogdensburg and go pick it up there.

[cicopo]

I could but someone has already sent me a link to a Canadian supplier. Although it's not important here I am familiar with that idea & have an importers number for business purposes. I used to spend a lot of time brokering car parts thru Customs at Prescot. I'm pretty familiar with all the ways to avoid brokering fees LEGALLY.

[Ron Lee]

Don't forget to rent the gold cannister,too. :) Apparently, the PLB is only waterproof to 20' without the cannister.

Looks like there may be a smaller canister than the gold one that I have

Quality Diving Equipment by Custom Divers - Custom Divers 200 210 Fast Find PLB Dive Canister


Custom Divers US contact is: (http://www.customdivers.com/custom-divers-200210-fast-find-plb-dive-canister-337-p.asp)customdivers@hotmail.com
(http://www.customdivers.com/custom-divers-200210-fast-find-plb-dive-canister-337-p.asp)

[scubafanatic]

Let's see, at the discount an operator gets, it might cost $100 to outfit a 6-pack boat with enough spare SMBs to outfit every diver who might not come equipped with one. Kept on board and rarely needed, they would last for years. Maybe it's because I am not a retailer, but I just find it hard to believe that an investment like that would force an operator into bankruptcy. If they were to charge a $1 rental fee, I think they would pay for the whole lot in no time without driving customers away with such an exorbitant increase in costs. If they require them and offer them for sale as an option, the profits from just a couple such sales would take care of the overhead for the rentals.

The operator I use in Cozumel requires a computer, and they have expensive parkas on board to keep guests warm. The last time I checked, they were still in business.

As for knowing how to deploy one, if you are on the surface, it is pretty darn simple. It only becomes problematic if you feel a need to deploy it at depth with a spool or reel.

(6) SMBs for a total of $ 100 ??? I'm using the Halcyon 6' ones @ $ 130-ish ....EACH !......, but I guess I don't believe in buying Chinese made safety gear from Wally World!

[Mike]

Looks like there may be a smaller canister than the gold one that I have

Quality Diving Equipment by Custom Divers - Custom Divers 200 210 Fast Find PLB Dive Canister


Custom Divers US contact is: (http://www.customdivers.com/custom-divers-200210-fast-find-plb-dive-canister-337-p.asp)customdivers@hotmail.com
(http://www.customdivers.com/custom-divers-200210-fast-find-plb-dive-canister-337-p.asp)

Thanks! I think that is what I've been looking for!!!!

http://www.rockymountainbathrooms.com/images/smiley/wortel.gif

[boulderjohn]

(6) SMBs for a total of $ 100 ??? I'm using the Halcyon 6' ones @ $ 130-ish ....EACH !......, but I guess I don't believe in buying Chinese made safety gear from Wally World!

Blue H's are extremely expensive. When they are added to any item, it sends the price through the roof.

You can easily buy a SMB that is plenty good enough for less than $30 retail. If you are a dive operator who can get dealer pricing, you can get it for about half that. 6 X $15 = $90.

[pidgiepoo]

FYI- I just talked to Diver's Supply and they have the OMS dye cannister for $6.95...however, they are out of them but plan to get some Monday. Ask for Amber if you call them because she is aware people are interested and will take your order

[Firefyter]

Firefyter, what if you black out at 100ft?......without a buddy you most likely are going to die.

What if I black out doing 85 on the interstate? I'm most likely going to die either way. The fact is that I trust my skills and my situational awareness way more than I trust an instabuddy.

I'm not against dive buddies at all. I regularly dive with friends that I consider very competent. I really enjoy the solitude of solo diving, plus I just resent being told that I have to buddy up with someone I know nothing about. A bad buddy is worse than no buddy at all. In cases like this, for me, solo is better.

To each his own.

---------- Post added at 10:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------



My suggestion for the experienced divers here is that they be willing to end their dive to support new divers going up early...whether alone or as a buddy pair. That is what I plan on doing if the situation ever occurs.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Even though I prefer to be alone, I will be the first one there to help anyone I see in distress, even if it means ending my dive early. To do otherwise is, in my opinion, negligent and just plain wrong.

[jd950]

Perhaps it is time for those with an interest to start a "what signalling devices are best" thread that will get broader participation and not unduly take away from the subject of this thread? This sad event has run its course, search has ended and it appears there is little left to say.

[scubawife]

Perhaps it is time for those with an interest to start a "what signalling devices are best" thread that will get broader participation and not unduly take away from the subject of this thread? This sad event has run its course, search has ended and it appears there is little left to say.Very sad. No sign at all of the missing diver has been found? My heart goes out to her husband and family. This must be especially difficult for her husband as he was on the dive with her. I cannot imagine what they must be feeling and going through. Thoughts and prayers to her family that they may find peace.

[DiverG]

Perhaps it is time for those with an interest to start a "what signalling devices are best" thread that will get broader participation and not unduly take away from the subject of this thread? This sad event has run its course, search has ended and it appears there is little left to say.
I think Jax or someone else already posted this http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/general-scuba-equipment-discussions/211950-best-signalling-equipment-searchers-point-view.html. It is a great thread from a searcher's point of view.

[gypsyjim]

I posted the comment by a couple of the folks who were recently adrift for over 5 hrs off the coast of Coz, that it was the small mirror that got the attention of a searching ship. The SMB's and such were not as visable from a distance as that flash of light.

I know from using a small mirror myself, to signal other hunters in the woods that they are getting close to me, and Effing up my location, that a mirror is an awfully good signaling device if there is any sunlight to work with. You can use the mirror to catch someone's attention, even when they are not looking directly at you.

Still hoping and praying for the diver and her loved ones.

[gedmondson]

1. since the lady was diving from a cruise ship, it can be surmised that she did not bring her own gear so was using rental gear which she was not familiar with and also that she was a beginner.

All assumptions... but I think most likely all true.

I hope they find her alive, but the longer it goes, the less likely.

robin
I have dove many times from cruise ships with my own equipment. I am a master diver. These kind of assumptions and blanket characterizations annoy me.

[DandyDon]

I have dove many times from cruise ships with my own equipment. I am a master diver.
Goooood. Would you agree that is uncommon for cruise ship divers, especially newbies...??

[gedmondson]

I have no idea Don. Havent done a poll. All i can tell you is that I am an avid diver, and sometimes I like to cruise! Cant imagine why that would be so different from other folks.

[JIsgren]

I did two dives while on a cruise in January and the group was a mixed bag. 3/4s of the divers were experienced, 1/4 were recently certified. 1/2 --2/3 brought own equipment and the rest rented. Cruise diving works well for me since my wife doesn't dive. This way we get to vacation together and I still get to blow bubbles.

[cicopo]

Between messages here & on Tripadvisor it looks like they had their own equipment & it was relatively new. Being both rookies & learning to use the equipment could be a contributing factor, but that applies to just about any activity from diving to photography etc.

See message 77 here.

Diver Missing - Cozumel Forum - TripAdvisor (http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g150809-i66-k5285020-o70-Diver_Missing-Cozumel_Yucatan_Peninsula.html)

[Mike]

What's rental gear go to do with it? Biggest differences a diver will usually find in different rental gear is an integrated weight system versus a weight belt, maybe a snap in a different location. Other than that, inflator hose on the left, push button on end to deflate, push button on side to inflate, pull to dump, reach around back to dump...

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 AM ----------


What's rental gear go to do with it? Biggest differences a diver will usually find in different rental gear is an integrated weight system versus a weight belt, maybe a snap in a different location. Other than that, inflator hose on the left, push button on end to deflate, push button on side to inflate, pull to dump, reach around back to dump...

I'd rather face the unpopular reality - there are a large number of people diving, especially I've noticed in the Caribbean, who are over-weight, out of shape, medically questionable, old aged, too feeble to pull themselves up a ladder with full gear on... etc... people who dive once every 3 years and do so buying a ride on the cheapest dive op they can find, and plenty of people who just don't treat the sport as potentially dangerous a one that it is. - this adds way more to the risk of dives then rental equipment.

As an example - I've read post after post with in the Bonaire section about descriptions of how people who do shore diving with bad knees, backs, weak upper body strength, who can't carry their equipment etc... and they describe their personal work-around-methods of dealing with it to handle the surf or unstable ground. It's wonderful that they have a love for diving and want to do anything they can to keep at it, but I read between the lines and fear for them, all it's going to take is some sh*t to hit the fan unexpectantly and they are going to have a ton of trouble dealing with the situation due to their medical issues, age, infirmity or lack of conditioning. They managed to get themselves in the water, and normally an average dive will not be a problem, but they've cut their margin for error so slim that they probably have put themselves in danger if anything out of the ordinary happens.

How many times have any of us been on a night dive and discover a diver with only 10 dives under his/her belt going on their first night dive? They've barely figured anything out and now they are adding darkness to the mix? That's so dangerous to me.

How many deaths in the accident forum are reported where the same question can always be asked -- "Where was the buddy?"

I see this sport being taken way too lightly by way too many involved in it and all it takes is one new element or risk to be introduced and they are now task overloaded with no margin of safety, no room for error and are at great risk, and then they want to blame the DM for not covering every minute contingency for them, instead of taking some responsibility for themselves, sometimes they report back about it and it's a lesson learned and sometimes they disappear and people are left to blame the dive master.

I feel there is way too quick a tendency for people to look to the dive op or the DM for blame when 100% of it rests solidly with the victim and their dive buddy. Nobody wants to face it, it seems harsh, its too easy to blame the DM, he should of done this or that, he could have done this or that, the truth is the diver shouldn't need the DM for anything other than as a tour guide. If you can't do the dive yourself without any DM with you, you have a lot of room for improvement and need gains of experience, and those are things you should be working toward, if you aren't and you're of the mindset that you don't need to work harder and keep learning, and diving to you is like a Disney Park experience and the dive op and dive master is your safety net, well I don't know what to say.

[DandyDon]

Between messages here & on Tripadvisor it looks like they had their own equipment & it was relatively new. Being both rookies & learning to use the equipment could be a contributing factor, but that applies to just about any activity from diving to photography etc.

See message 77 here.

Diver Missing - Cozumel Forum - TripAdvisor (http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g150809-i66-k5285020-o70-Diver_Missing-Cozumel_Yucatan_Peninsula.html)
Thanks. I'm quoting this on the Accident thread.

[gypsyjim]

I did two dives while on a cruise in January and the group was a mixed bag. 3/4s of the divers were experienced, 1/4 were recently certified. 1/2 --2/3 brought own equipment and the rest rented. Cruise diving works well for me since my wife doesn't dive. This way we get to vacation together and I still get to blow bubbles.

Face it, the cost of an occasional cruise is far less than the cost one might incur by trying to replace the non diving spouse with one who does. If you are married to someone who does not enjoy the sport, or can not dive, it is pretty cool that you can still share a vacation where at least you can get wet, and they are not bored out of their gourd.

NOT that a cruise ship holds any interest for me.

Luckily Colleen enjoys diving too, even if she is not as avid or dedicated to the sport as I am.

---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------


What's rental gear go to do with it? Biggest differences a diver will usually find in different rental gear is an integrated weight system versus a weight belt, maybe a snap in a different location. Other than that, inflator hose on the left, push button on end to deflate, push button on side to inflate, pull to dump, reach around back to dump...

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 AM ----------



Let's face the unpopular reality here - there are a large number of people diving, especially in the caribbean who are over-weight, out of shape, medically questionable, old aged, too feeble to pull themselves up a ladder with full gear on... etc... people who dive once every 3 years and do so buying a ride on the cheapest dive op they can find, people who don't treat the sport as a potentially dangerous one - adds way more to the risk level then rental equipment.

For example - How many posts have I read in the Bonaire section about descriptions of people who do shore diving with bad knees, backs, week upper body strength, you fill in the blank and they describe their personal trimuphant method of dealing with surf or unstable ground. It's wonderful that they have a love for diving and want to do anything they can to keep at it, but face it, all it's going to take is some sh*t to hit the fan unexpectantly and they are going to have a ton of trouble dealing with the situation due to their medical issues and the work arounds that got them into the water and now are in trouble. This sport is taken way too lightly by way too many involved in it and all it takes is one new element or risk to be introduced and they are now task overloaded and at great risk.

How many times have any of us been on a night dive and discover a diver with only 10 dives under his/her belt going on their first night dive? They've barely figured anything out and now they are adding darkness to the mix? It's crazy.

How many deaths in the accident forum are reported with the common denominator of the question asked "Where was the buddy?" I feel there is way too quick a tendency for people to look to the dive op or the DM for blame when 100% of it rests solidly with the victim and their dive buddy. Nobody wants to face it, it seems harsh, its too easy to blame the DM, he should of done this or that, he could have done this or that, the horrible truth is the diver shouldn't need the DM for anything other than as a tour guide. If you can't do the dive yourself without any DM with you, you have a lot of room for improvement and need gains of experience and those are all things that the buck stops with the diver.


For many years I did rent mostly, as I was traveling and just returning to diving, and only occasionally at that. I was not prepared to invest a lot in new gear, until I had some idea which way I wanted to go.

It seems that my horse collar buoyancy, J valve, and single regulator were no longer acceptable on the dive boats, for some odd reason. :dontknow:

__________________________________________


And Mike, I still feel that there is an expected level of caution, oversight and care of the divers under the care of a DM, in the type of diving scenarios such as we see in Coz.

I am not a DM, but I believe that any time I am leading any other divers, buddied directly with me or not, I have placed myself in a responsible position. I feel it is inherently a part of being in any group of divers, to watch over all the divers in your group, and that if I were being paid to shepherd a group of divers, especially those I knew to be less experienced, I would feel much more responsible.
In many cases I believe the law would see a similar responsibility by a paid group leader leading a group of less experience people in a hazardous enterprise. I am not a lawyer either, so I could be wrong.

Is the buddy responsible? Certainly we all are, but not every diver is as well trained in safety as we would like, or as experienced or is going to be really able to do what it takes to rescue a struggling diver! Hopefully a paid DM is both rescue trained and able to spot problem before it becomes real serious issue.

In the end you are correct in believing that it is each of us divers, ourselves, who in the must understand and assume the risks of our sport, and hopefully find buddies who feel the same.

[Darol]

Mike said: I'd rather face the unpopular reality - there are a large number of people diving, especially I've noticed in the Caribbean, who are over-weight, out of shape, medically questionable, old aged, too feeble to pull themselves up a ladder with full gear on... etc... people who dive once every 3 years and do so buying a ride on the cheapest dive op they can find, and plenty of people who just don't treat the sport as potentially dangerous a one that it is. - this adds way more to the risk of dives then rental equipment.




I see this sport being taken way too lightly by way too many involved in it and all it takes is one new element or risk to be introduced and they are now task overloaded with no margin of safety, no room for error and are at great risk.

Mike I agree, but rental gear scares the hell out of me. I have seen some very interesting things. I wouldn't rent a parachute, or dive gear, especially a regulator.

[Jim Lapenta]

I posted the comment by a couple of the folks who were recently adrift for over 5 hrs off the coast of Coz, that it was the small mirror that got the attention of a searching ship. The SMB's and such were not as visable from a distance as that flash of light.

I know from using a small mirror myself, to signal other hunters in the woods that they are getting close to me, and Effing up my location, that a mirror is an awfully good signaling device if there is any sunlight to work with. You can use the mirror to catch someone's attention, even when they are not looking directly at you.

Still hoping and praying for the diver and her loved ones.

A standard mirror is great at night. But during the day can be mistaken for a reflection off the water unless it is one like my GF and I carry. In our SDI solo class the instructor had two sided mirrors. Standard on one side and red on the other. A red flash or reflection is like nothing that occurs naturally and more likely to get attention. We now each carry one on all dives. Plus it makes doing gear/bubble checks easy when diving solo.

[Mossman]

How many times have any of us been on a night dive and discover a diver with only 10 dives under his/her belt going on their first night dive? They've barely figured anything out and now they are adding darkness to the mix? That's so dangerous to me.

I see this sport being taken way too lightly by way too many involved in it.
The reason why I take this "sport" so lightly is because it's pretty safe, fewer deaths than bowling IIRC, and most people don't take bowling too seriously either. Yes, occasionally people drift off, occasionally people get bent/embolized, and I suppose a shark eats someone every now and then. But the fact remains that the vast majority of recreational dives are conducted incident-free, where the worse that happens to someone is a hydroid sting or a bloody nose from a clogged sinus.

My first post-certification dive was a night dive, in mediocre visibility and 55 degrees, off San Clemente Island, a dot about 50 miles off Southern California, where the nearest land to the west is Hawaii. I got separated from the group, had an uncontrolled ascent, and suffered through the nausea of alternobaric vertigo as I kicked my way back to the boat alone. But I saw my first ever moray eel, cool!

Since then, I've faced a lot of other dangerous situations underwater, stuff that the average Caribbean cruiseship diver will never experience. I somehow managed to survive them all without harm. If diving is so safe that it hasn't killed me yet, surely it's not worth it for the average Caribbean cruiseship to be overly concerned.

But I'll agree that some "certified" divers really shouldn't be in the water without close supervision. Certification standards are probably too lax. Unfortunately, statistics don't bear out much causal relationship between low standards and diver injuries/death, so the standards don't change (or get even lower). Until divers start dropping off like flies, you'll see the same barely certified divers doing the same [potentially dangerous] Cozumel dives and probably having a great time.

When I got a bit unnerved during the one down current I experienced in Cozumel, my friend had a sister who had just finished her cert dives. He got separated from her when the crazy currents hit and hence became even more unnerved than me, thinking he had lost her forever. To his surprise, when he later found her back on the boat, she had loved the dive and didn't even notice the downcurrent. Go figure.

Whether it's the duty or just the moral obligation of a DM to keep his group safe, I'm not certain. It depends on each party's expectations (is the diver expecting a critter spotter or a hand-holder), the level of expertise of both (for instance, I've had DMs with far less experience and training than me guide me on dives), written documents, and agency guidelines. However, it is in the financial interest of every dive professional to keep divers safe for the selfish reason that, if divers get injured or killed, standards might get tougher, there might be scrutiny from government, and undoubtedly public interest will wane and pro divers will lose their jobs. Any DM in Cozumel who loses a diver should be shunned, booted off the island as an incentive for the rest to keep their divers safe and their pockets full.

[Ron Lee]

First, Mike describes me in the opening part of his post #188. It is sad (about me).

Second, he makes a lot of valid points. Using this incident as an example, we have two inexperienced divers in a buddy team. Realistically, neither can offer much help to the other if things go bad.

I am neither an instructor nor a Cozumel dive guide dude, but I would expect (given the Santa Rosa site), that the group would first descend to a sandy bottom on the shore side of the wall. Maybe that takes two to three minutes. Then the DM checks all the divers to see if they are comfortable and ready to go to the wall. So they do not get to the wall until about five minutes into the dive.

Yet five minutes later the woman has to go up....apparently unable or unwilling to wait until her husband notifies the DM that they are going up.

So what is the lesson here? Two inexperienced divers may not make a good buddy team. You can't blame the husband. He is a newbie. He does not have the experience yet to handle the less benign conditions of the ocean compared to a pool. He is not rescue trained.

I don't know how the dive shop handles situations like this or if they will change.

But based upon this one and others recently, I will end my dive if required to babysit any single diver or buddy team going to or at the surface that even remotely appears to be inexperienced. This may never happen but if more experienced divers took that attitude, these cases would become less common.

This concept also applies to women. Recall the C-53(?) incident of last year I think. You just do not leave women alone in potentially non-benign conditions. For the liberals who claim this is sexist....it is the way I was raised. Deal with it.

As for the notion that they should be able to take care of themselves because they have a C-card, how well did that concept work in this case? More experienced divers can watch out for less experienced divers. They may not have a legal requirement to do that but it takes little effort to periodically look at them and assess their situation.

[gypsyjim]

A standard mirror is great at night. But during the day can be mistaken for a reflection off the water unless it is one like my GF and I carry. In our SDI solo class the instructor had two sided mirrors. Standard on one side and red on the other. A red flash or reflection is like nothing that occurs naturally and more likely to get attention. We now each carry one on all dives. Plus it makes doing gear/bubble checks easy when diving solo.

A seriously good idea. Thanks

[cvchief]

Mike I agree, but rental gear scares the hell out of me. I have seen some very interesting things. I wouldn't rent a parachute, or dive gear, especially a regulator.

If you maintain your gear. I have seen peeps on the boat with expensive newish gear that is F-ed up and repaired on the boat or swapped out for a rental. So if you are not really 'into' diving, rental gear from a good op might be the better option? Of course the same thing about experience, if you are 'in' to diving, maybe you don't need so close watching and your own gear is better than a rental. If you aren't experienced, maybe a DM who will keep an eye on you and good rental gear is the BEST option. I have seem my DM take a newbie buddy team and tell them to stick 'close' so they get a higher level of care than those that have a little more experience.

[ggunn]

...
Whether it's the duty or just the moral obligation of a DM to keep his group safe, I'm not certain. It depends on each party's expectations (is the diver expecting a critter spotter or a hand-holder), the level of expertise of both (for instance, I've had DMs with far less experience and training than me guide me on dives), written documents, and agency guidelines. However, it is in the financial interest of every dive professional to keep divers safe for the selfish reason that, if divers get injured or killed, standards might get tougher, there might be scrutiny from government, and undoubtedly public interest will wane and pro divers will lose their jobs. Any DM in Cozumel who loses a diver should be shunned, booted off the island as an incentive for the rest to keep their divers safe and their pockets full.IMO, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I sympathize with a DM presented with a herd of newbies to shepherd on a dive where early on one of them suddenly bolts for the surface alone. What is he to do? Abandon the rest of his charges, or leave the loner to fend for him/herself? Either way, if something goes pear-shaped, he is going to be seen by some (with the benefit of hindsight) as being at fault.

[theduckguru]

The reason why I take this "sport" so lightly is because it's pretty safe, fewer deaths than bowling IIRC, and most people don't take bowling too seriously either.

I think you'll find more people die sleeping than scuba diving, but I don't believe scuba is safer.

[gypsyjim]

Over time I have seen all kinds of DM's, from really hap hazard appearing DM's who are merely guides; some often routinely taking novice divers way beyond their level of training, even into overhead environments, ect. These DM's I would feel very lax letting anyone I care for dive with.

I have also dived with DM's who seem to be aware of everything around them, spotting quickly any who may warrant closer attention, or special care, and quickly responding to any issues, however small, even if just to be present while the diver resolves whatever issue they may be experiencing by them self.

This last sort of DM I have seen even keeping tabs on teams of divers that he has dismissed for their assent, watching from the corner of his eye until he knows they have been recovered by the boat. It is always satisfying to know that you are more than just a paying passenger that your guide feels no responsibility for protecting, even if you are an experienced diver.

As with dive buddies, not all DM's are cut from the same sort of cloth. Even though I am pretty confident of my ability to take care of myself, and my buddy I dam-sure would rather have buddies and DM's around who I feel are aware of every other diver around them, and ready to step in if someone needs help.

It is also this latter sort of DM that I hope my young son and daughter will be fortunate enough to be diving with, as they grow and move on in the world of diving where I can no longer be with them on every dive.

I am making no judgements about the sort of DM who was involved in this accident. He was notified by the one diver of the team's ascent, and dismissed that buddy team, which does certainly lower any further responsibility he may have had.
It will take some time to sort out the entire incident. In the end there simply be no one at all who failed in their responsibility. Sometimes accidents are just not preventable due to things we have no control of at the time.

[boulderjohn]

I am making no judgements about the sort of DM who was involved in this accident. He was notified by the one diver of the team's ascent, and dismissed that buddy team, which does certainly lower any further responsibility he may have had.
Maybe.

We have had conflicting reports on this, and I have no idea which is to be believed. Each report has a good reason to be the more accurate; each report has a good reason to be the less accurate.

[Sideways]

For me the bottom line is I would rather be with a DM who wasn't just going through the motions, and actually was pro-active for his/hers divers safety. I feel very comfortable with my capabilities, but not so much for my GF's. She is a new diver, and I have to admit I have to really focus on being a better buddy for her. My nose gets stuck in the viewfinder at times :bonk:. I always Evaluate the level of ability and "Give a crap" that our DM has on each outing. That aids to determine my awareness level, kinda sad, but it's honest. For the question of actual liability, I lean towards the fact that we're all certified, and SHOULD understand the risks and safe practices.

[gypsyjim]

Maybe.

We have had conflicting reports on this, and I have no idea which is to be believed. Each report has a good reason to be the more accurate; each report has a good reason to be the less accurate.

Correct. As with so many accidents, there is a lot we do not yet know, and much we may never know.

I was speaking in generalities, based on what it seems like we are learning.

I was also clarifying my much earlier suggestion that the DM might have have some responsibility, before we learned the the buddy MAY have alerted him.

We can only wait, and hope, pray and maybe learn from whatever errors may have been made.

[ggunn]

Maybe.

We have had conflicting reports on this, and I have no idea which is to be believed. Each report has a good reason to be the more accurate; each report has a good reason to be the less accurate.
For every incident involving more than one person, there are as many subjective takes on it as there are people. A POV that is not accessible to us is an omniscient objective one. Another is that of anyone who did not survive the incident. It's not really a question of accuracy; any reconstruction of the event from what we can know about it will be at best an approximation.

[Mike]

I am neither an instructor nor a Cozumel dive guide dude, but I would expect (given the Santa Rosa site), that the group would first descend to a sandy bottom on the shore side of the wall. Maybe that takes two to three minutes. Then the DM checks all the divers to see if they are comfortable and ready to go to the wall. So they do not get to the wall until about five minutes into the dive.

Yet five minutes later the woman has to go up....apparently unable or unwilling to wait until her husband notifies the DM that they are going up.

So what is the lesson here? Two inexperienced divers may not make a good buddy team. You can't blame the husband. He is a newbie. He does not have the experience yet to handle the less benign conditions of the ocean compared to a pool. He is not rescue trained.

If that was the scenario then the husband is far more guilty of making a mistake then the DM.

You don't abandon your buddy.

If in the time it took for the husband to realize his wife was having to surface and signalling the DM and in this time he lost visual sight of his wife, then he made a mistake in taking the time to signal the dive master. You don't abandon your buddy. If the husband had stuck to his wife like glue we would either know what happened or possibly there would have been no incident at all. Anybody who disappears means their buddy failed them. I'm sorry it sounds harsh, but the life lost is far harsher.

* I've dove for 12 years on rental gear. I can easily afford any dive equipment I would want to buy, I simply can't stand lugging that much crap on and off airlines, cleaning it, maintaining it...

I'm just lucky or I don't really care. Between myself and my buddy I have two spare regs available to me on every dive. I take my mask, fins, snorkel, dive computer and safety signaling gear and a wetsuit and that's it, and I try to dive with outfits that charge enough to be able to maintain good quality rental gear.

[Laurie S.]

If that was the scenario then the husband is far more guilty of making a mistake then the DM.

You don't abandon your buddy.

If in the time it took for the husband to realize his wife was having to surface and signalling the DM and in this time he lost visual sight of his wife, then he made a mistake in taking the time to signal the dive master. You don't abandon your buddy. If the husband had stuck to his wife like glue we would either know what happened or possibly there would have been no incident at all. Anybody who disappears means their buddy failed them. I'm sorry it sounds harsh, but the life lost is far harsher.

I fully agree with you.

[ggunn]

If that was the scenario then the husband is far more guilty of making a mistake then the DM.

You don't abandon your buddy.

If in the time it took for the husband to realize his wife was having to surface and signalling the DM and in this time he lost visual sight of his wife, then he made a mistake in taking the time to signal the dive master. You don't abandon your buddy. If the husband had stuck to his wife like glue we would either know what happened or possibly there would have been no incident at all. Anybody who disappears means their buddy failed them. I'm sorry it sounds harsh, but the life lost is far harsher.Hindsight is always 20:20. In every accident there is almost always something that someone could have done differently which could possibly have changed the ultimate outcome. It doesn't mean, necessarily, that anyone was at fault or should be blamed for what happened. Diving is not totally risk-free; there are random variables in play on every dive. I submit that it is largely those random variables which attract us to diving.

[Brules]

Any update on this incident? Have they officially called off S&R?

Also, I think an issue that occurs in Coz a LOT is DM's allow people to solo ascend, breaking up buddies. I ALWAYS pair up with the DM if possible so I don't have to deal with a buddy who blows through his air in 15min, but I see it all the time......they will ok it in pre-dive brief, which I do not agree with.

[pidgiepoo]

---------- Post added at 07:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 AM ----------



over-weight, out of shape, medically questionable, old aged, feeble ..
with bad knees, backs, weak upper body strength,

,.

Granny doesn't like your choice of adjectives Mike !!!! :rofl3: although I do agree with your coments.:)

[ccannon707]

Thought the 2 sided mirror with red on one side sounded good. Found it:

Trident Safety Signal Mirror - Dive Right In Scuba - Plainfield, IL (http://www.diverightinscuba.com/catalog/safety-signal-mirror-p-1711.html)

Also at Scuba Toys.

[Mossman]

I think you'll find more people die sleeping than scuba diving, but I don't believe scuba is safer.
Obviously you've never heard J snore.

It's still safer than a lot of other pasttimes, especially when factoring out the deaths due solely to stress, i.e. heart attacks and the like. Scuba attracts a larger portion of the out-of-shape than more active "sports" precisely because it is so physically un-taxing. At least golfers exercise their arms and shoulders. Put the same poorly trained occasional divers that survive relative advanced Cozumel diving on a ski slope that's at the same advanced level and you'll see far more injuries and deaths. Uncoordinated divers merely smash into the reef and blow their safety stops. Uncoordinated skiers hit trees and break their necks.


But based upon this one and others recently, I will end my dive if required to babysit any single diver or buddy team going to or at the surface that even remotely appears to be inexperienced. This may never happen but if more experienced divers took that attitude, these cases would become less common.
I'm an experienced diver who will be paying good money for 12 dives on my next trip to Cozumel. If required to babysit any diver, I should be reimbursed for my time and trouble. Otherwise, why should the paying customer sacrifice his or her dive to do something that the paid professional is supposed to do? If I'm diving with you and you follow up a newbie buddy team, I'll wave to you from depth, then continue the rest of my expensive dive with the DM.

[cvchief]

Maybe.

We have had conflicting reports on this, and I have no idea which is to be believed. Each report has a good reason to be the more accurate; each report has a good reason to be the less accurate.

Which is more to the point of this being a theoretical discussion of personal and DM responsibilities, not an assignment of blame in this incident.

[Ron Lee]

I'm an experienced diver who will be paying good money for 12 dives on my next trip to Cozumel. If required to babysit any diver, I should be reimbursed for my time and trouble. Otherwise, why should the paying customer sacrifice his or her dive to do something that the paid professional is supposed to do? If I'm diving with you and you follow up a newbie buddy team, I'll wave to you from depth, then continue the rest of my expensive dive with the DM.

That is your choice. I am not worried about one dive being impacted. I do not think that my dive op would have done the same (allowing a novice buddy team to go up after around ten minutes). But let us assume that they did. Based upon this thread and two others, I have adopted a new philosophy on how I will act to a similar scenario. It only has a potential negative impact to me. The "negative" element is one that is acceptable.

There is a possibility that once the diver(s) is on a boat that I might be able to continue the dive. If not, then I get on that boat too and deal with the logistics of getting to the right boat when the time is right.

My view is that novice divers can often use an extra set of eyes on them, suggestions on improving their skills, etc.

Mike, do you maintain 100% visual contact with your buddy? How long between glances? Could your buddy bolt to the surface between glances? Dive down to 300'?

What about in tunnels? Swim throughs?

Maybe the husband motioned for his wife to follow him and between glances she leaves him. I sure do not know. I stand by my view that he was a novice and you can't expect him to handle an in-water problem like someone with years of diving and advanced training. I am not playing the blame game here.

[gypsyjim]

Thought the 2 sided mirror with red on one side sounded good. Found it:

Trident Safety Signal Mirror - Dive Right In Scuba - Plainfield, IL (http://www.diverightinscuba.com/catalog/safety-signal-mirror-p-1711.html)

Also at Scuba Toys.

"Unbreakable" sounds good, and @$12 sounds good too, now if they can just make it nu-loseable for us divers w/o pockets on our warm water skins and BP/W's

[TomZ]

A mirror and Storm whistle are clipped to the top of my SMB, then rolled up inside. 20' of 1" nylon strap (with a clip on the end, another clip is fastened 5' up the strap) is then secured to the roll with some thin bungee cord, tightened with a barrel slide. The clip at 15' marks safety stop depth, and doubles as a way to clip on to my buddy if ever needed. It stays nicely rolled up and in a pocket of a BC.

[rkfatheree]

Thought the 2 sided mirror with red on one side sounded good. Found it:

Trident Safety Signal Mirror - Dive Right In Scuba - Plainfield, IL (http://www.diverightinscuba.com/catalog/safety-signal-mirror-p-1711.html)

Also at Scuba Toys.

Thank you!

[Mike]

I stand by my view that he was a novice and you can't expect him to handle an in-water problem like someone with years of diving and advanced training.

He could be, we all were at one time. It took me probably 50 dives to finally figure out what it meant to be a good dive buddy, and it took a talking to by a dive op owner/dive master in Roatan to really open my eyes to what a buddy is supposed to be. I got some stern looks one time when my dive buddy got in the water without her weight belt. She (dive master/owner) let me know it was my fault, not my buddies due to a pre-dive buddy check that I obviously was lax on or I would have caught the missing weight belt. I was also a terrible buddy from dives 1-10 because I didn't know better and a pretty bad one from dives 10-40 because I was too concerned with photography and was ignorant to the dangers of my lax attention.

[Mayor]

Very strange currents testing many of my skills throughout the week. We finished the trip Friday on Santa Rosa wall thinking of the lost diver. My heart goes out to the missing divers family and friends.

[Dan G]

I'm an experienced diver who will be paying good money for 12 dives on my next trip to Cozumel. If required to babysit any diver, I should be reimbursed for my time and trouble. Otherwise, why should the paying customer sacrifice his or her dive to do something that the paid professional is supposed to do? If I'm diving with you and you follow up a newbie buddy team, I'll wave to you from depth, then continue the rest of my expensive dive with the DM.

I think that anytime we decide to engage in an activity that may require rescue, such as climbing, mountaineering, back country skiing, or SCUBA, we are accepting that we may have to ruin our day to help another person whether we know them or not.

[ggunn]

I think that anytime we decide to engage in an activity that may require rescue, such as climbing, mountaineering, back country skiing, or SCUBA, we are accepting that we may have to ruin our day to help another person whether we know them or not.I agree, although it may suck at the time and it may be completely a result of someone else's stupidity/ignorance/carelessness. If I see someone in trouble, I'll do what I can to help them get out of it. Afterwards, I may read them the Riot Act for ruining my dive, but I can't sit by and watch a situation spiral out of control. Thankfully, it doesn't happen that often.

I've never been present in a diver loss situation and I hope I never will. I have been handed the group by the DM for a bit while he dealt with a situation, though, and I was happy to do it.

[Mossman]

I think that anytime we decide to engage in an activity that may require rescue, such as climbing, mountaineering, back country skiing, or SCUBA, we are accepting that we may have to ruin our day to help another person whether we know them or not.
How many cruise ship passengers are mountaineering and back country skiing on their excursions, even somewhere more appropriate like Alaska? You're comparing apples to string beans.

Sure, I take the risk that my day of diving might be cut short by an accident. That's one thing. But that's a far cry from volunteering to accompany to the surface every newbie that aborts a dive.

[gypsyjim]

You're comparing apples to string beans.


Apples and string beans have a lot more in common than either does with, say, red meat. IJS.
It all depends on what you are comparing things to.

[Mike]

I think that anytime we decide to engage in an activity that may require rescue, such as climbing, mountaineering, back country skiing, or SCUBA, we are accepting that we may have to ruin our day to help another person whether we know them or not.

Of course. And of course why I always seek out a dive op with the greatest possibility of avoiding being on a boat with newbie divers if I can help it.

Some interesting comparisons to other activities have been brought up - just some observations -

Rock Climbing compared to scuba - rock climbing has rated climbs, you can read the rating number and know pretty quickly if you can handle it or not
Skiing compared to scuba - same thing - inbounds skiing, all trails rated with universal system of greens, reds, blues, blacks, double blacks, scuba - not so much
Mountaineering - the activity itself is self discriminating. Out of shape, over weight, medical conditions pretty much eliminate you from taking part since you won't get very far
Hiking - is a much more similar pursuit to scuba diving. Many people with many different ability and health levels can take part. We still lose people all the time due to conditions or people getting over their heads
Back Country Skiing - another high risk activity, but unlike divers, the participants are usually very well versed in the risks and purchase equipment specifically made to help save their lives such as beacons, avalungs etc...

Scuba diving is a weird sport with the 100 lbs elephant in the room. On the one hand it's marketed as very easy to do and the broad range of participants that you see certainly show that the public buys into it. However its also a weird activity where there is an edge that 99% of the participants have to avoid crossing over or they could die. 80% of the participants take part in only 20% of the potential, never doing caves, technical etc... but the recreational side of it dances a real close dance with all the more advanced and more dangerous portions of it, with tastes such as cenote diving which dances very close but avoids cave diving by staying in 'cavern' dives. Deep diving to 130 feet dances very close with technical diving...

Scuba diving has this strange component where you're always just a few moments, feet or circumstances away from pushing past the ultra safe components and having your ass handed to you before you know it, some current conditions change and suddenly your dive is totally changed, and since diving is so safe and easy to do, you look around and on the same dive you might have some divers who will handle the changes without a problem, some who might struggle a bit but deal with it okay and some who are over their level of abilities and in real danger. Couple that with the DM ambiguity of what exactly is his responsibilities versus perceptions are and it's a real chance for a bad event to unfold.

[Ron Lee]

Sure, I take the risk that my day of diving might be cut short by an accident. That's one thing. But that's a far cry from volunteering to accompany to the surface every newbie that aborts a dive.

I cannot remember every dive in Cozumel. I do not recall whether I have been in a situation where, if I had to do it over, I would accompany a diver or pair of divers to the surface to monitor the situation until they were on a boat. If it ever was a reality, most likely it was divers from another group. So based upon vague and questionable memory, I would say that it is an uncommon event. Of course that may be artificial due to the policies of the dive op I use which make this scenario unlikely.

The only case I recall where my dive was impacted was Devil's Throat. I usually go through last. On one dive, two divers elected to not go down the throat part. I had two options:

1) Wave goodbye to them and continue the dive I paid for and let them fend for themselves.

2) Escort them out and north on the shore side to meet up with the rest of the group.

I picked option 2. I missed out on diving the throat part. Big whoop. It is not my favorite dive anyway.

I do not recall every Cozumel case of a solo diver ascending and ending up missing or dead. I know of three in the last year and in every case, had an experienced diver elected to accompany them, perhaps the outcome would have been better.

One example: The woman on the C53 dive last November. What if someone else had noticed that she was not going to enter the ship and decided to stay with her? Fact is that the other diver would have missed out on a dive that they purchased. It is possible that the woman would be alive today (barring a medical issue). Sounds like a good trade-off to me.

People are free to do as they wish. This incident made me realize that you can't assume that divers are going to survive a simple ascent to the surface alone. I do not consider Cozumel diving to be hazardous for the most part. There are sites and conditions that require plenty of experience or just saying no that day.

It does not take much to make these incidents far less common than they are today. I believe that it is Mike who notes that the majority of these incidents are due to a breakdown of the buddy system. I suspect that he is right. Perhaps the best solution is a change in how this situation is handled by the dive guides/dive ops. Another option is for just a few experienced divers to be willing to be proactive and do what I consider to be the right thing.
.

[Dan G]

Of course. And of course why I always seek out a dive op with the greatest possibility of avoiding being on a boat with newbie divers if I can help it.

I concur. :cuddles:


Some interesting comparisons to other activities have been brought up - just some observations

This would be a great conversation over beers someday, because I could nit pick a bit here, but I agree with the general theme of your post.

I am not trying to compare diving to these other activities, I am taking the position that regardless of how much money we spend on an activity or time we put in preparation for it, just the act of engaging in that activity makes us obligated to help others whenever possible. I do not think this obligation is based on any law, it is just the nature of our choice to participate in these types of activities.

So now a question: Does a DM or dive op need to function similarly as the rating system for climbs and ski runs? The idea of the rating system is so people can make informed choices and then they are responsible for their choice. Since dives don't have that, how much of an obligation does the DM have to take into account our skill level when it comes to choosing dive sites?

[boulderjohn]

So now a question: Does a DM or dive op need to function similarly as the rating system for climbs and ski runs? The idea of the rating system is so people can make informed choices and then they are responsible for their choice. Since dives don't have that, how much of an obligation does the DM have to take into account our skill level when it comes to choosing dive sites?

This would be a good topic for its own thread. I participated in a thread about a situation related to a situation in the Philippines in which a diver was on a dive that was much beyond his ability. I was very surprised by the breadth of opinions. Some believed that the responsibility lay directly with the diver, meaning that a relatively inexperienced diver should be able to make a realistic appraisal of his ore her ability and also know the relative difficulty of a site he or she has never visited. I did not concur.

[cvchief]

I am taking the position that regardless of how much money we spend on an activity or time we put in preparation for it, just the act of engaging in that activity makes us obligated to help others whenever possible. I do not think this obligation is based on any law, it is just the nature of our choice to participate in these types of activities.


Isn't that just being a decent human being, no matter the activity? If I was in Wet Wendy's and Moss tripped over his bar stool and took a header, I would stop and allow my delicious frozen cilantro and pineapple margarita to melt while I checked him and possible injuries and helped him up. Do I want to let my delicious margarita melt? No, but it would be the decent thing to do. I guess I could pick a bar with hard core drinkers to minimize the chance of needing to help, but the principle still applies.

[citycountryguy]

I'm curious, Mike, in the experience you have gained to date, were you ever assisted by a more experienced diver who just happened to be with you on a board, or from whom you learned simply by being around through osmosis? Would you have learned that if those experienced divers decided to "seek out a dive op with the greatest possibility of avoiding being on a boat with newbie divers if I can help it?"

[Mike]

I'm curious, Mike, in the experience you have gained to date, were you ever assisted by a more experienced diver who just happened to be with you on a board, or from whom you learned simply by being around through osmosis? Would you have learned that if those experienced divers decided to "seek out a dive op with the greatest possibility of avoiding being on a boat with newbie divers if I can help it?"

Unless you're going to ask a lot of specific questions to other divers on your dive boat, you won't learn a whole lot of anything from other divers other than observations you might make. Underwater you can't talk, you can't see and ask a question about something. Most interaction with other divers will be on board between dives and mostly be about did you see that turtle? I wouldn't look to other vacation divers for too much instruction. Beyond the basics in the first 20 dives where there is a big learning curve and you're gaining a lot of feedback, after that there is a tremendous slowing of your education. You will be making incremental advances and adjustments for the most part, and the vast majority of them are going to be cause/effect, observation based, trial and error, reading about something here and applying it next time.

[Sideways]

Isn't that just being a decent human being, no matter the activity? If I was in Wet Wendy's and Moss tripped over his bar stool and took a header, I would stop and allow my delicious frozen cilantro and pineapple margarita to melt while I checked him and possible injuries and helped him up. Do I want to let my delicious margarita melt? No, but it would be the decent thing to do. I guess I could pick a bar with hard core drinkers to minimize the chance of needing to help, but the principle still applies.

See..... I was wise too go drinking with you at Wet Wendy's! ;)

[cvchief]

Underwater you can't talk, you can't see and ask a question about something. I have a slate. I am prepared!! :D

[MMM]

This thread has meandered far from its very sad topic. Before putting any more fingers to the keyboard, please consider the subject and then ask yourself if what you are planning to type into the reply box is related or should go into a new or different thread so that it gets back/stays on topic. Since this isn't the accidents and incidents forum (where another related thread exists), I would also thank you for demonstrating sensitivity to the people involved in this tragedy.

[Mossman]

The only case I recall where my dive was impacted was Devil's Throat. I usually go through last. On one dive, two divers elected to not go down the throat part. I had two options:
One example: The woman on the C53 dive last November. What if someone else had noticed that she was not going to enter the ship and decided to stay with her? Fact is that the other diver would have missed out on a dive that they purchased. It is possible that the woman would be alive today (barring a medical issue). Sounds like a good trade-off to me.
There's a big difference between skirting a swim-thru or foregoing wreck penetration and aborting a dive early. I'd have no problem making the first two compromises, though I would take it up with the DM back on the boat as to why a diver was left alone. And if it were a clearly dangerous scenario, such as an unbuddied diver making a panicky ascent without communicating such to the DM, then yes, I would assist the diver or at least keep a good eye on him or her until I saw a boat approach. But a buddy pair making a measured ascent to the surface, or even a solo that seems in control, I figure they know what they're doing and I'll continue on with my dive.


This would be a good topic for its own thread. I participated in a thread about a situation related to a situation in the Philippines in which a diver was on a dive that was much beyond his ability. I was very surprised by the breadth of opinions. Some believed that the responsibility lay directly with the diver, meaning that a relatively inexperienced diver should be able to make a realistic appraisal of his ore her ability and also know the relative difficulty of a site he or she has never visited. I did not concur.
I agree that there should be some consistent objective means of gauging dive site difficulty. Many dive ops and guidebooks classify sites all over the world as easy, intermediate, or advanced, but there's not much uniformity to those classifications. Lonely Planet has a rating system for its "Diving and Snorkeling" series, but I feel it's arbitrary. For instance, Advanced is described as "advanced certification; has been diving for more than two years; logged over 100 dives; has been diving in similar waters and conditions within the last six months." But that's redundant. You can't dive an Advanced dive unless you've done a similar Advanced dive within the last six months? The 100 dives is more relevant, but not a guarantee of surviving a truly advanced dive if the 100 dives were done in more basic conditions, and we all know what value the "advanced certification" has.

Dive ops shouldn't take unqualified divers on dives, but they don't always know the diver's qualifications. Divers can puff up their dive histories and claim they're ready for dives which they truly have no business doing. And plenty of dive ops minimize the danger of their local diving because they don't want to interfere with their revenue (and, perhaps, because they're used to the local conditions and have lost perspective). After experiencing some truly scary dives in Cozumel, I'm convinced it's not a place for beginners because you simply never know when la mierda will hit the fan and beginners often aren't capable of recognizing the danger and taking steps to avoid it. Strong currents with the chance of down currents, deep "bottomless" walls, swim-throughs, and lots of boat traffic, I'm honestly amazed at how Cozumel is so often pushed as a great place to dive right after getting open-water certification. But I'd imagine revenue would slip a bit if 100 dives and advanced certification were required in order to dive the island. Money trumps safety and common sense. Cozumel will continue to be popular with newbies and newbies will continue go missing.


Isn't that just being a decent human being, no matter the activity? If I was in Wet Wendy's and Moss tripped over his bar stool and took a header, I would stop and allow my delicious frozen cilantro and pineapple margarita to melt while I checked him and possible injuries and helped him up. Do I want to let my delicious margarita melt? No, but it would be the decent thing to do. I guess I could pick a bar with hard core drinkers to minimize the chance of needing to help, but the principle still applies.
Bad example. I have a very hard head and am a very self-sufficient drinker. Also I wouldn't be drinking in Wet Wendy's unless they can make a normal margarita, on the rocks!

But if you did somehow come to my rescue, causing your drink to melt, I'd happily buy you three to make up for it. On the other hand, I could see a diver you just assisted to the surface, likely saving his life, turn around to you and tell you to F-off. Forget about getting reimbursed for your missed dive. It pays off much better to be a good samaritan in a bar than underwater.

[flots am]

How many cruise ship passengers are mountaineering and back country skiing on their excursions, even somewhere more appropriate like Alaska? You're comparing apples to string beans.

Sure, I take the risk that my day of diving might be cut short by an accident. That's one thing. But that's a far cry from volunteering to accompany to the surface every newbie that aborts a dive.

I dive on cruise ships every year, and if I see a diver in distress me and my buddy will be right there to help.

A diver unexpectedly surfacing can be "just fine" or only moments away from panic and a quick death. Going up to make sure everything is OK and making sure the diver gets back on the boat or re-joins his buddy is worth a cut-short dive any day of the week.

flots.

[Mike]

I'm honestly amazed at how Cozumel is so often pushed as a great place to dive right after getting open-water certification. But I'd imagine revenue would slip a bit if 100 dives and advanced certification were required in order to dive the island. Money trumps safety and common sense. Cozumel will continue to be popular with newbies and newbies will continue go missing.

Very very true. With the common two tank morning dive profile of deep dive first to 80 feet or more followed by 2nd dive to 60 ft or so, it's a profile that puts a newbie right into the thick of it on their first dive.

Dive ops with a policy of keeping newbie divers on afternoon dives which are usually very tame, would be a great step in the way of safety. We all know however the half dozen reasons why this probably won't be happening anytime soon.

[cvchief]

As the originator of the thread, I would be great if MMM or someone wanted to move a lot of this into a thread called "You, your buddy, your DM and your group, who should do what?" I think the discussion is educational and perhaps the discussion with all its meandering might do us all some good and help us dive 'safer'. I think that might serve to bring something of value out of this tragedy.

[Sorrows]

Good call, chief. God, this is horrible, an awful loss and terrible waste. Prayers to the family, of course, but I agree with Chief that his proposed topic could produce some good out of this tragedy. Where should I look for it, please?

Edited to add: I think the proposed thread "You, your buddy, your DM and your group, who should do what?" should be Coz-specific; as it is a diving mecca that can be a "perfect storm" for this kind of tragedy--currents and depth issues, drift diving, newbie divers mixed with the more experienced, cruise ship passengers, DMs who have worry about not pissing off their customers AND keeping everybody safe, etc. etc.

[DandyDon]

As the originator of the thread, I would be great if MMM or someone wanted to move a lot of this into a thread called "You, your buddy, your DM and your group, who should do what?" I think the discussion is educational and perhaps the discussion with all its meandering might do us all some good and help us dive 'safer'. I think that might serve to bring something of value out of this tragedy.
H! A little late for that. Over 200 posts, most off topic.

[cvchief]

H! A little late for that. Over 200 posts, most off topic.

As I started the topic, DD, my intention was find out what happened and discuss that... Maybe some of that topic is A&I, but that was my topic....

[Brules]

Amen, too much general discussion without regard to the true nature of the loss. Sad.

[Splitlip]

Let's see, at the discount an operator gets, it might cost $100 to outfit a 6-pack boat with enough spare SMBs to outfit every diver who might not come equipped with one. Kept on board and rarely needed, they would last for years. Maybe it's because I am not a retailer, but I just find it hard to believe that an investment like that would force an operator into bankruptcy. If they were to charge a $1 rental fee, I think they would pay for the whole lot in no time without driving customers away with such an exorbitant increase in costs. If they require them and offer them for sale as an option, the profits from just a couple such sales would take care of the overhead for the rentals.

The operator I use in Cozumel requires a computer, and they have expensive parkas on board to keep guests warm. The last time I checked, they were still in business.

As for knowing how to deploy one, if you are on the surface, it is pretty darn simple. It only becomes problematic if you feel a need to deploy it at depth with a spool or reel.


When I read tigerman's post earlier, I thought of the demonstrations flight attendants give in the donning and inflation of life vests. Inflating any number of SMBs at the surface is going to be much easier.

Jupiter dive center requires one on every dive. Helps a lot when looking for a missing diver. Even the cheap sausages are better than empty hand.
Most of the regulars carry larger DSMBs with spools and reels.

[Christi]

Very very true. With the common two tank morning dive profile of deep dive first to 80 feet or more followed by 2nd dive to 60 ft or so, it's a profile that puts a newbie right into the thick of it on their first dive.

Dive ops with a policy of keeping newbie divers on afternoon dives which are usually very tame, would be a great step in the way of safety. We all know however the half dozen reasons why this probably won't be happening anytime soon.

It's been really busy here and I have been way too busy to get on the board lately - so I haven't had a chance to read all of this thread - but wanted to say this in response to some over general statements of how "Cozumel Ops" do things - we are not all the same and we do not all have the same policies!

This is exactly why I have a very strict policy that I do not deviate from - and that is requiring a private DM without exception for newly certified divers with less than 15 dives in the past year and we reserve the right to require a private DM in various other circumstances as well - I've only had a few arrogant "buddies" object - but I am happy to say this is one policy/call I've never been wrong on - even with those who may initially object to it.

[ddeborahdelamar]

Back to the original topic: The active recovery phase is over. The grapevine & press report that the family of the victim has returned to the USA, likely with unanswered questions and surely with great sadness -- and without filing any complaint. The DM and boat captain testified before the port captain and await his decision re their fitness to continue working and any fines or other penalties he chooses to impose.

I extend heartfelt sympathy to the victim's family both from me and from many island residents and visitors.

[Dan G]

Back to the original topic: The active recovery phase is over. The grapevine & press report that the family of the victim has returned to the USA, likely with unanswered questions and surely with great sadness -- and without filing any complaint. The DM and boat captain testified before the port captain and await his decision re their fitness to continue working and any fines or other penalties he chooses to impose.

I extend heartfelt sympathy to the victim's family both from me and from many island residents and visitors.

Deborah,
Thanks for the update. My deepest sympathies go out to the family and friends. I also want to extend a "thank you" to the family and friends who posted on the board. That sort of courage makes the possibility of learning from incidents and accidents much greater.

[scubawife]

Back to the original topic: The active recovery phase is over. The grapevine & press report that the family of the victim has returned to the USA, likely with unanswered questions and surely with great sadness -- and without filing any complaint. The DM and boat captain testified before the port captain and await his decision re their fitness to continue working and any fines or other penalties he chooses to impose.

I extend heartfelt sympathy to the victim's family both from me and from many island residents and visitors.
Thanks for the update, Deb. Very sad, the thought of going on a vacation with your spouse and having a day of diving resulting in going home alone.

Whatever the port captain's ruling is, it doesn't change the outcome. My heart really goes out to the diver's husband and family. It's hard enough to lose a loved one, but harder to do so with all the unanswered questions.

Dive safe, everyone. Anything can happen to any of us, anytime. Experience and the number of dives you have under your belt doesn't exempt you from an underwater emergency or an accident.

---------- Post added April 3rd, 2012 at 10:38 AM ----------


To be honest I don't think that there are any dives anywhere that will duplicate the dives in any one location and in general 15 dives should mean 15 buddy checks, 15 descents, 15 opportunities for gas management, 15 minor issues as will happen on any dive and 15 safe ascents - a whole lot better than a new diver arriving on the island fresh out of padi course. Christi has to have some line in the sand and 15 seems a reasonable number as 15 in a year is more than just a "vacation diver"

Also to be fair 15 quarry dives - even at 30 feet - can result in a huge learning curve. With the lack of good viz and the cold that goes along with most quarry dives that is some serious task loading and I would sooner dive with a 15 quarry dive diver than a 30 dive vacation diver. At Dutch springs, PA where I certified, 30 feet is thermocline territory and although the zebra mussles have improved viz you are still talking poor viz with COLD water - now that makes for beefy divers.

I have dived approx 250 dives and still consider myself a beginner - I shudder to think that my 8th dive was in Coz off of a cruise ship with Sand Dollar and a deep wall with a ripping current - mainly because despite my training I had no idea what potential dangers awaited me - Hey I was on a cruise line with RCL - they would never let anything happen to me - Whew - there but for the grace of God goes I
If it was always an option, my buddy choice would be the diver who has the most dives in the location/destination I'm diving that day. Diving in the worst conditions doesn't make someone more skilled or mean they're going to excel in better conditions.

I know a few guys who've been doing blackwater SAR diving for 15-20 yrs. It was their first experience in diving. Some of them have never done anything else. For a few of them, the only other diving they've done is a handful of outings to a local quarry. I will never come close to their level on our SAR team, but I know that if I ever get to take them on a trip down to Cozumel, regardless of their skills, they'll be like flailing newbies in blue water. No tether line, no rope signals, no comm, no bottom crawling... Point being, you can be the most experienced diver with hundreds or thousands of dives in your particular specialty, but the minute you get into a different diving environment requiring a different skill set, it's a whole new ball game.

One thing I really like about the Cozumel shops I've used is that how many dives you have, and/or your cert level, while taken into consideration, don't determine which sites you'll be offered. They want to see you in the water, under Cozumel diving conditions and see how you do skill and comfort wise before taking you anywhere you want to go.

[Brules]

Back to the original topic: The active recovery phase is over. The grapevine & press report that the family of the victim has returned to the USA, likely with unanswered questions and surely with great sadness -- and without filing any complaint. The DM and boat captain testified before the port captain and await his decision re their fitness to continue working and any fines or other penalties he chooses to impose.

I extend heartfelt sympathy to the victim's family both from me and from many island residents and visitors.

Thoughts and prayers are with the family. Such a tragic accident.....and to not have any real closure makes it even worse. :(

[Craig66]

My thoughts and prayers to the family and I hope that we have all learned a little from this accident that will make us safer and better divers.

Perhaps it might be time that the Cozumel Dive Assosc. come out with a flyer that needs to be signed by all divers explaining clearly what the role of the DM is. In my early dives in Coz I too was under the mistaken idea that a DM's job was to keep me alive at all costs and perhaps that was because I had the distinct fortune of diving with Pedro Pablo who is one of the few people I know who can guide a dive, find fishies and critters and also aid with all the issues that the divers might have. Clearly he is one of a very select bunch.

If divers were aware what the actual role of the DM was it might go a long way in making divers more responsible for their diving and the situations they allow themselves to be placed in. As an off shoot it would likely improve revenue to the dive ops as I am sure there are many divers that would spring for a private DM but dont as they are under the mistaken idea that the leading DM is their private DM.

While loss of life is always a tragedy - lets hope that the lessons learned from each one can help to make sure that another potential loss is averted.

Craig

[cvchief]

Guys, come on over to the who does what thread....

[Randy43068]

Guys, come on over to the who does what thread....

Will do... and thanks

[airstream]

I was diving at the tevils hroat on the 28th with Dive Paradise. It was ridiculous conditions. Or boat of six had 3 instructors, two dive masters and a spec ops combat diver...we all agreed that the conditions were very challenging......our second dive at the shallows we encounterd a stiff current which was fun, but would be intimidating for a new diver. We surfaced and saw the helicopter and the park patrol executing a search.......

[MMM]

A number of recent off-topic posts in this thread have been moved to another thread and may be found here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/cozumel/416017-coz-you-your-buddy-your-group-your-dm-who-should-do-what.html A few others were copied for continuity.