My ideal course...

Many of use "newer" divers are struggling to find an "advanced course that meet our needs. I've heard many people says that they want to take the DM course to improve their skills and knowledge. Others try the Master Scuba Diver course with the hopes of once again becoming a very sound diver...I've found that both these course don't offer everything I want in a well organized package. If I had to design a recreational advanced diving course, here's what I'd want:


Theory: (at least 50 to 60 hours)
1. Pro level diving physiology, diving medicine and tables work, with a TOUGH written exam (...not one that you can just redo as many time as you want until you pass!)
2. Introduction to the LOCAL marine environment and basic principles of marine biology
3. DETAILED overview of equipment function and maintenance (basically, having the KNOWLEDGE to service my own gear and the SKILLS to fix minor and less minor problems) and taking a look at teck gear, rebreathers to have a good idea of what they do and principles behind using the gear
4. Boating safety/navigation

Practical:
Buoyancy PERFECTION (8 to 10 dives)
Underwater navigation with LOTS of drills! (8 to 10 dives)
Deep diving(..and all the theory and safety that goes with deep diving) including some decompression theory (8 to 10 dives )
Diving in currents (5 dives)
Dealing with u/w emergencies (ie. OOA, entanglement etc..) (15 to 20 dives)
Wreck diving(not penetration...) and the use of specialty equipment (5 dives)
Accident management, FIRST RESPONDER/Advanced first aid and CPR (40 hour course with lots of scenarios)
Improving fitness for diving
Practical exams for all components with very high standards (..not just "as long as you have a pulse and shell the money, you get the card"..)

A course like this would most likely take a few months to complete and might be a bit expensive...but I think (as long as the instruction is A+..) It would be great.

What are you're thoughts? Anything to add or to omit? What kind of training would you want?

That sounds like a lifetime of diving to me!!!!
There are some instructors out there that cannot meet those requirements now!
even some of the old "salts" on the board cannot claim to have all of that knowledge.
But hey! If you are prepared to pay, then there will be someone out there that will make you sweat underwater!
But as a help )
I would probably be able to help you with most of it.

Theory: (at least 50 to 60 hours)

1. Pro level diving physiology, diving medicine

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(cant help here I am afraid - speak to the Doctors on the board)

and tables work

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(This one I can - memorise all of both sides of the PADI RDP and the Wheel and be able to work out a weeks dive planning )

2. Introduction to the LOCAL marine environment and basic principles of marine biology

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(What LOCAL marine environment you want? - Maldives? Got to go to prove that I know
Principles? Mummy fish meets daddy fish they fall in love and have either baby fish, eggs or both

3. DETAILED overview of equipment function and maintenance (basically, having the KNOWLEDGE to service my own gear and the SKILLS to fix minor and less minor problems) and taking a look at teck gear, rebreathers to have a good idea of what they do and principles behind using the gear

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(Can help here as well, did a service technicians course in Phuket - need to return there to do that as well - great tech instructor)

4. Boating safety/navigation

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(Ahh the love of my life. Get us a 40 foot catamaran, and I will teach you how to navigate by the stars as we cross the Bay of Bengal)

Practical:

Buoyancy PERFECTION (8 to 10 dives)

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(Ok, fin pivoting over 500 hammerheads in Sipadan, or hovering over the Blue Hole in Dahab ... your choice)

Underwater navigation with LOTS of drills! (8 to 10 dives)

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(As we are lost in the Bay of Bengal, you could use your underwater boat towing skills to get us to The Nicobar Islands)

Deep diving(..and all the theory and safety that goes with deep diving) including some decompression theory (8 to 10 dives )

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(Quick trip to ScubaJim's South Pacific Trip to dive the Coolidge, only need 8-10 dives to do it in - and draw a map!)

Diving in currents (5 dives)

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(Back to the Bay of Bengal, we will be expecting you to be swiming into currents once or twice)

Dealing with u/w emergencies (ie. OOA, entanglement etc..) (15 to 20 dives)

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(Does needing a change of underwear whilst finpivoting over hammerheads and 1800 foot drop off equal an u/w emergency?)

Wreck diving(not penetration...) and the use of specialty equipment (5 dives)

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(River Thames - supermarket trolley graveyard - specialty equipment? Well, anti-tetanus jabs, side scan radar and maybe an underwater guide dog, you could do the condom identification specialty)

Accident management, FIRST RESPONDER/Advanced first aid and CPR (40 hour course with lots of scenarios)

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After the Thames, you will know all about water-borne virus, blood disease and how to resuscitate an underwater guide-dog)

Improving fitness for diving

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(HOW DARE YOU USE THE F WORD ON THIS SITE!!!! Anyway after tugging a 40'cat around the Bay of Bengal this would make you fit!)

Practical exams for all components with very high standards (..not just "as long as you have a pulse and shell the money, you get the card"..)

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(Hey!, you gotta pulse after all this, you deserve the advanced open water)

Total cost to you ... 5 years of your life !
Good luck

With all due respect, I do think that the competances you list are very important, and that any serious diver should stirve to get those build up. However I question if a "course" really is the right place for this?

I've got "the usual" bunch of certificates and courses from various agencies (PADI, CMAS, FFESSM, ...), and what these do to me is allow me to get gasfils and get on boats.

Once the cert's have gotten me the gas to breath and the boat-ride to somewhere exciting, it's up to me....to build the bouyancy skills, navigational skills etc.

If left to my own devices, it's neat -- to get back to the boat, I have to do the navigation, gas-mgmt. (deco planning) etc. If following a guide, well I just pretend that I am not -- and still do the navigational stuff myself to tune that skill.

Bouyancy...same thing, except that there's no excuse for not praticing and perfecting bouyancy skills on every dive.

Ohh, and that you can pratice, btw., in your local friendly mudhole/quarry too as much as you like. Even the pool may work A good exercise, btw., is to dive "eyes closed" in some pattern in the pool. Have your buddy stand by and check that you're not doing something to kill anyone (including yourself) *gg*, and remember that navigation is in three dimensions. (navigation, trim, bouyancy all in one exercise.....)

Dive physiology? Well, I am a curious guy, so right after passing my first OW cert, I grabbed what litterature I could find on dive medicine, and started to assimilate it at my own pace. No better way to spend a booring flight to a dive-destination than reading Bennet and Elliott and similar stuff

The same thing can be said about many of the other things you list. If you are a curious diver wanting to advance, then you'll seek up materials and acquire information by yourself. No need for a course for that, let alone a c-card

Regarding dive-techniques, I do think that the way the DIR-F course supposibly is conducted is smart: some extremely good instructors show up and are an "example of mastery" of the techniques, for the student to imitate, ask questions to etc., and to provide "hard exercises" which noone can perfect during the course anyways, but which gives a goal for future work. (Notice, I haven't taken the course myself, so the above is just hearsay -- would love to take it, though, if ever scheduling permits).

Thus far, I've gotten lucky and managed to buddy up with extremely skilled and experienced divers, who I try to imitate, and who like nothing better than to talk diving and answer my questions.

So I've gotten the "courses" that makes me fit for basic survival in the environments I visit (open water, deco). I'm now building experience there. Of course, when entering another environment (say, caves), I need some basic "staying alive" courses -- then it's the "building experience" part again

I am not sure I see the need for an advanced course at all for real "advanced divers", to be completely honest....

voop once bubbled...
With all due respect, I do think that the competances you list are very important, and that any serious diver should stirve to get those build up. However I question if a "course" really is the right place for this?

I've got "the usual" bunch of certificates and courses from various agencies (PADI, CMAS, FFESSM, ...), and what these do to me is allow me to get gasfils and get on boats.

Once the cert's have gotten me the gas to breath and the boat-ride to somewhere exciting, it's up to me....to build the bouyancy skills, navigational skills etc.

If left to my own devices, it's neat -- to get back to the boat, I have to do the navigation, gas-mgmt. (deco planning) etc. If following a guide, well I just pretend that I am not -- and still do the navigational stuff myself to tune that skill.

Bouyancy...same thing, except that there's no excuse for not praticing and perfecting bouyancy skills on every dive.

Ohh, and that you can pratice, btw., in your local friendly mudhole/quarry too as much as you like. Even the pool may work A good exercise, btw., is to dive "eyes closed" in some pattern in the pool. Have your buddy stand by and check that you're not doing something to kill anyone (including yourself) *gg*, and remember that navigation is in three dimensions. (navigation, trim, bouyancy all in one exercise.....)

Dive physiology? Well, I am a curious guy, so right after passing my first OW cert, I grabbed what litterature I could find on dive medicine, and started to assimilate it at my own pace. No better way to spend a booring flight to a dive-destination than reading Bennet and Elliott and similar stuff

The same thing can be said about many of the other things you list. If you are a curious diver wanting to advance, then you'll seek up materials and acquire information by yourself. No need for a course for that, let alone a c-card

Regarding dive-techniques, I do think that the way the DIR-F course supposibly is conducted is smart: some extremely good instructors show up and are an "example of mastery" of the techniques, for the student to imitate, ask questions to etc., and to provide "hard exercises" which noone can perfect during the course anyways, but which gives a goal for future work. (Notice, I haven't taken the course myself, so the above is just hearsay -- would love to take it, though, if ever scheduling permits).

Thus far, I've gotten lucky and managed to buddy up with extremely skilled and experienced divers, who I try to imitate, and who like nothing better than to talk diving and answer my questions.

So I've gotten the "courses" that makes me fit for basic survival in the environments I visit (open water, deco). I'm now building experience there. Of course, when entering another environment (say, caves), I need some basic "staying alive" courses -- then it's the "building experience" part again

I am not sure I see the need for an advanced course at all for real "advanced divers", to be completely honest....

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The point of taking courses is to improve under supervision..right? The problem is that most courses out there are what you've described...things that you can just go out with your buddy and try out. Problem is, lots of people develop bad habits, due to lack of training and then promote what they do. Furthermore, for someone who wants to "get more out of diving" than what the OW course provides but doesn't want to become a Pro, there just doesn't seem to be anything in between that is worthwhile. Sure diving will give you experience and knowledge on it's own, but having a well structured course makes it easier to learn some of the finer points of diving. Alot of board members have expressed that aow, specialities, MSD and even DM courses gave them nothing more than a bit of dive time...In my books, every time you take a course...you should come out of there with a wealth of knowledge and experiences that you wouldn't get by simply going for a dive; no matter what your previous experiences.

Rather than a course, it would seem a book would be what you are looking for. If an instructor (or a group of divers) wants to use the book as a text for a program of diver improvement, so be it.

One of the reasons AOW is so dumbed down is because holding diver interest is difficult when the card doesn't mean much. I don't see how the card for this super course would mean much of anything.

If you want some good references, I have the fourth revised edition of "the new science of skin and scuba diving", which is pretty extensive. I also have the sixth edition, which I am told is a bit watered down, which I have found to be the case to some extent. I am also told later editions are _really_ diluted.

Both are a bit dated, so reading them along with some newer references is useful. That's what I do.

If I thought there was a market for it, I'd take the PADI encyclopedia, the US Navy Dive Manual, "Doing it Right", and "the new science of skin and scuba diving" and roll them into something huge. Considering how long it has taken GUE to get DIRf rolling, I can't see writing "the Compleat Diver" being worth my time.

The boating would be better covered by the Coast Guard Auxiliary or Power Squadron courses. If your country doesn't have anything like that, I'm sure you could get it started.

A couple thoughts...

1. Most people are interested in learning by diving, not learning in a classroom. They will eventually "perfect" their buoyancy and other things you mentioned with months (or years) of diving. That's why all of the agencies courses are the way they are.

2. The only courses that I can think of that would satisfy what you want to learn would be technical diving courses. Don't have the misconception that technical diving is diving deep. I would suggest finding a local technical instructor with a good reputation and talking to him about what you want. You will certainly learn the decompression theory you seek, and other things you mentioned like diving in currents. Most tech divers/instructors really know their stuff. Even if you decide not to take a tech course, that instructor might be willing to give you private lessons (but it'll cost ya).

As for the rescue stuff, PADI's rescue course is fantastic. You will be happy with it.

As for the boating stuff, go take a Power Squadron course, Canadian Coast Guard course, or whatever boating course is offered in your area. There's no way that an agency could force learning boating in a diving course!

Take care, and good luck.

divemed06 once bubbled...
Many of use "newer" divers are struggling to find an "advanced course that meet our needs. I've heard many people says that they want to take the DM course to improve their skills and knowledge. Others try the Master Scuba Diver course with the hopes of once again becoming a very sound diver...I've found that both these course don't offer everything I want in a well organized package. If I had to design a recreational advanced diving course, here's what I'd want:


Theory: (at least 50 to 60 hours)
1. Pro level diving physiology, diving medicine and tables work, with a TOUGH written exam (...not one that you can just redo as many time as you want until you pass!)
2. Introduction to the LOCAL marine environment and basic principles of marine biology
3. DETAILED overview of equipment function and maintenance (basically, having the KNOWLEDGE to service my own gear and the SKILLS to fix minor and less minor problems) and taking a look at teck gear, rebreathers to have a good idea of what they do and principles behind using the gear
4. Boating safety/navigation

Practical:
Buoyancy PERFECTION (8 to 10 dives)
Underwater navigation with LOTS of drills! (8 to 10 dives)
Deep diving(..and all the theory and safety that goes with deep diving) including some decompression theory (8 to 10 dives )
Diving in currents (5 dives)
Dealing with u/w emergencies (ie. OOA, entanglement etc..) (15 to 20 dives)
Wreck diving(not penetration...) and the use of specialty equipment (5 dives)
Accident management, FIRST RESPONDER/Advanced first aid and CPR (40 hour course with lots of scenarios)
Improving fitness for diving
Practical exams for all components with very high standards (..not just "as long as you have a pulse and shell the money, you get the card"..)

A course like this would most likely take a few months to complete and might be a bit expensive...but I think (as long as the instruction is A+..) It would be great.

What are you're thoughts? Anything to add or to omit? What kind of training would you want?

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It's a bit of a local bias on my part but a program similar to what you're looking for does exist. The Los Angeles County Advanced Diver Program covers almost all of the points you've bought up. I think the skills are covered in overlapping dives but you're still looking at 15-20 open water dives, 7-9 confined water training dives, and 50+ hours of theory lecture from experts such as Jeff Bozanik and Glenn Egstrom on diving. It's really a very unique experience that no dive center or instructor can equal. It really demonstrates the advantage of a non-profit, county program with no desire to make money that makes it a one of a kind situation. It's also really geared towards the Los Angels dive community and local diving.

Now for a bit of industry persective, this program was designed by the people who eventually founded NAUI and PADI. For marketing and business reasons, it was eventually broken down into a ridiculous amount of specialties that the industry pushes today. Any instructor for a major agency can attest to that. The ADP program is the only place that you can still find these dives and training in one place. It also costs less than $500. That's another benefit of working with a county program that was the birthplace of formalized scuba training.

No private Instructor can do what LA County does. It's still the most complete and unique program in diving today.

seanrollins once bubbled...
A couple thoughts...

1. Most people are interested in learning by diving, not learning in a classroom. They will eventually "perfect" their buoyancy and other things you mentioned with months (or years) of diving. That's why all of the agencies courses are the way they are.

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Your first sentance says it all. It's a marketing thing. We get away with it because most divers dive with resorts under some level of supervission.

Most divers do not perfect basic skills with months or years of diving but rather go on practicing doing things wrong. A diver will only improve with experience if they have a solid foundation in the basics on which to build. Divers are not getting that in the typical OW class.

voop once bubbled...
With all due respect, I do think that the competances you list are very important, and that any serious diver should stirve to get those build up. However I question if a "course" really is the right place for this?

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Let's say you were taking a literature course. Would you rather have a course that meet once or twice a week for a couple months where you read a few chapters and then discussed them, or a course where you were handed Cliff Notes and told to go find someone else who had taken the class and talk to them if you have any questions?

cornfed once bubbled...


Let's say you were taking a literature course. Would you rather have a course that meet once or twice a week for a couple months where you read a few chapters and then discussed them, or a course where you were handed Cliff Notes and told to go find someone else who had taken the class and talk to them if you have any questions?

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Dunno much about litterature, dude, so I can't say what the "right" learning method is for that subject

However the "course for a couple of months" model you outline has merits. Not as much for the "teaching once or twice a week" but for the fact that the student (i) gets inspiration from the teacher/instructor (ii) has time to work independently using the teacher/instructor as a role model and following the advices from him/her or (iii) gets to be evaluated and corrected by the teacher after having had time to work independently for a while.

In diving-terms, that amounts to me to taking a seminar-type thing (a little like I understand the DIR-F to be), then go away with lots of stuff to work on for a while, and then get another opportunity with the same instructor(s), say, a year down the line....

ps: What / Who's "Cliff Notes"?