BC integrated back-up second stage---best reg set up???

[klschnepp]

I have been diving with my BC integrated back-up second stage for a long time and am comfortable with it, particularly since my spouse and primary dive buddy and I practice skills somewhat regularly. However, I do end up with other buddies and an emergency is certainly not like practice!

My primary second stage is on a regular length hose and an instructor got me thinking that it would be a good idea to put it on a longer hose and perhaps even use yellow to signal it is also the back-up. I know divers rarely have opinions on anything (LOL), but wondering what others think is the best set up for a warm water recreational diver?

[BDSC]

I also dive with an intergrated inflator/octo combo and love mine. As far as my primary goes, it's on a standard length hose but I have seen folks use the longer hose configuration as well. No doubt the longer hose primary would give you and a buddy a little more room to move around if you needed to share air. I wouldn't go so far as to change colors though. If you see your buddy coming when he/she is OOA then you will have already moved to your octo and will be holding out your primary most likely. If you have a buddy who runs OOA and they are in a panic and suddenly comes up on you, they are gonna grab what's in your mouth anyway. So I don't see a need to make it yellow. I actually don't see a need to change to a longer hose either but it's certainly not a bad thing.

[halocline]

Try putting your primary on a 5 ft hose, routed under your right shoulder, across your chest, over your left shoulder, behind your head and around. This is a modified hogarthian routing, usually used with an alternate on a short hose attached to a bungie necklace, but it will work fine with an octo/inflator. It makes air sharing a breeze, and it's more comfortable and streamlined to dive with. Having some slack in the air-sharing hose dramatically changes things when an out-of-control diver is thrashing around.

If you want to try it without investing in a 5 foot hose, just get a hose coupler for a few $ and connect two standard hoses. It'll take a dive or two to get used to it, then you'll love it and never look back.

OOA diver behavior is unpredictable; you really don't know what anyone's going to do, especially when they're not trained and panic stricken. I've had my primary 2nd ripped out of my mouth and been mugged for my octo, actually once someone went for both! That was an unfortunate DM trainee in a demonstration exercise that went awry... and goes to show you that even moderately experienced divers can act unpredictably.

[Kryssa]

I've been thinking about switching to an octo/inflator and really liked this set up for your primary hose. Scuba Diving: Streamlined Regulator for Single Tank Diving - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSKGKG-8zRA)

I only do open water, relatively shallow (usually < 80 ft) diving. My buddy is usually my husband so we could do a lot of practice for OOA.

[Jim Lapenta]

If that's what you are thinking of going to why not use the entire set up with the bungerd back up? Before you buy an integrated inflator look at how they hang, how long they are, how much more expense you will incur for servicing, the fact that you may need to buy an extra hose should you have to rent a reg, or if you need to rent a BC as your integrated hose may not work with other gear. Along with the fact that the integrated inflator may necessitate you removing the reg from your mouth to vent during an ascent while you are dealing with a stressed diver. Not a situation I'd like to be in.

And every one I've seen and worked with on a students BC is mucn larger than a standard inflator and I see no improvement in streamlining or hose routing. If anything it's worse.

I do not permit them in my AOW classes as some of the drills we do are not suited to the use of one. Try a horizontal air share ascent from 100 feet with one while maintaining eye contact with the OOA diver and monitoring your ascent rate. Do a side by side 100ft air share swim and gradual ascent up a slope with one while maintaining buoyancy and trim.

[BDSC]

If that's what you are thinking of going to why not use the entire set up with the bungerd back up? Before you buy an integrated inflator look at how they hang, how long they are, how much more expense you will incur for servicing, the fact that you may need to buy an extra hose should you have to rent a reg, or if you need to rent a BC as your integrated hose may not work with other gear. Along with the fact that the integrated inflator may necessitate you removing the reg from your mouth to vent during an ascent while you are dealing with a stressed diver. Not a situation I'd like to be in.

And every one I've seen and worked with on a students BC is mucn larger than a standard inflator and I see no improvement in streamlining or hose routing. If anything it's worse.

I do not permit them in my AOW classes as some of the drills we do are not suited to the use of one. Try a horizontal air share ascent from 100 feet with one while maintaining eye contact with the OOA diver and monitoring your ascent rate. Do a side by side 100ft air share swim and gradual ascent up a slope with one while maintaining buoyancy and trim.

Jim,

Why do you say that there will be more expense in servicing the combo? You pay to service the combo or you pay to service the back-up octo. Either way you pay. And one benefit to the combo is that the entire set-up is looked at during service. At least my guy does it that way. So I don't know if folks actually pay to have their inflator serviced but if they do and pay for an octo to be serviced as well it would actually cost your more doing it your way. Also, why would you need to buy an extra hose if you rent a reg? If you need to rent a reg wouldn't it come with a hose? Pretty much every BC I have ever seen you can vent the BC with pulls and dumps and never need to take the combo out of your mouth.

As far as steamlining goes, I don't know that having a combo really saves you much if anything but not sure how you would say it's worse. I've never heard that before. Streamlining is highly overrated anyway.

[JamesK]

Jim,

Why do you say that there will be more expense in servicing the combo? You pay to service the combo or you pay to service the back-up octo. Either way you pay. And one benefit to the combo is that the entire set-up is looked at during service. At least my guy does it that way. So I don't know if folks actually pay to have their inflator serviced but if they do and pay for an octo to be serviced as well it would actually cost your more doing it your way. Also, why would you need to buy an extra hose if you rent a reg? If you need to rent a reg wouldn't it come with a hose? Pretty much every BC I have ever seen you can vent the BC with pulls and dumps and never need to take the combo out of your mouth.

As far as steamlining goes, I don't know that having a combo really saves you much if anything but not sure how you would say it's worse. I've never heard that before. Streamlining is highly overrated anyway.

Not knocking you, just trying to understand.
Do you send your BC in as well when you have your regs serviced?
When renting a reg, you will usually have the standard LP inflator hose attached to it. Combo setups have specific hose fittings usually. If you want to make sure you can actually use that setup of yours, you will have to have a compatable inflator hose. Plus you will still have the octo that comes on the rented reg. So much for streamlining, but that's ok, you don't beleive in it.

I am far from a fan of inflator combos, but I will not get in to that here.

[BDSC]

I actually drop off my entire BC at my LDS when I take things in for service. I could remove the combo but it's just easier to drop off the entire thing. It's right on my way to and from work so for me it's no big deal.

As far as renting a reg goes, I thought he was talking about just needing to rent a reg but not needing to rent both a reg and an octo. But if you did need to rent both then you're right, a BC fitted for a combo does have a different inflator hose.

My thoughts on streamlining is this. People will use the old "more streamlined" argument to justify different set-ups etc. Some folks will say that the combo is more streamlined because you have one less hose, etc. I think in race cars streamlining is no doubt important. When Lance Armstrong was riding they had him in wind tunnels looking at everything he could wear and how he should position his body to be more streamlined. No doubt in that situation, it can make a difference. But what about scuba? Most, but not all of the time, folks are slowly swimming around looking at the reefs, the fishes, or whatever they do on a dive and they aren't in a race or a hurry to do anything. Sometimes you have current, sometimes you don't. I just don't see how the "streamlining effect" of using a combo octo could ever be measured. How could you measure the streamlining effect of a BP/W over a BI or a jacket? For probably 90% of the dives done on a day to day basis, would some fraction gained of being better streamlined, which can't even be proven most likely, really matter? I've dove jackets, BI's, BP/W's, combo octos, standard set-ups, etc and I've never been able to truly notice a difference. The BC for me is nothing more than a tank holder as I hardly ever add any air during a dive to it.

So that's why I think the whole streamlining effect is highly overrated.

[halocline]

Oh no, this is turning into the zillionith "octo/inflator-good or evil?" thread. I was just patting myself on the back for my restraint....

---------- Post added May 23rd, 2012 at 05:49 PM ----------


I've dove jackets, BI's, BP/W's, combo octos, standard set-ups, etc and I've never been able to truly notice a difference. The BC for me is nothing more than a tank holder as I hardly ever add any air during a dive to it.


Well, that's kind of bizarre to me, because I think that BC style is probably the 2nd most noticeable gear decision in terms of its impact on dive comfort, right after wetsuit fit. It doesn't really have to do with whether or not there's air in the bladder, its about weight distribution, tank stability/coupling to the diver's back, harness style, constriction and clutter in the chest/torso or lack thereof, etc...

And pretty much every diver I've ever met that's moved from a jacket style BC to a hogarthian style BP/W has been amazed at the difference in feel when diving. So....I guess you would be the exception.

[BDSC]

And pretty much every diver I've ever met that's moved from a jacket style BC to a hogarthian style BP/W has been amazed at the difference in feel when diving. So....I guess you would be the exception.

When I dive my BI I do notice I have a bit more freedom in my arms because of the way the BC fits but I've never noticed that I was more streamlined or moved thru the water better. When I dove the BP/W it was the same to me as the BI and I actually didn't like the feel of a crotch strap so I found it to be inferior for me.

[JamesK]

I was not trying to be a smart ass with my "streamlined" comment, but can see how it could come across that way.

However, how can you NOT like a crotch strap. uuuuuugggggghhhhhhh :)

[BDSC]

I was not trying to be a smart ass with my "streamlined" comment, but can see how it could come across that way.

However, how can you NOT like a crotch strap. uuuuuugggggghhhhhhh :)

I didn't take it that way at all James! :D

[awap]

As an OW recreational diver, I'd put the primary on whatever length hose works best for you. With the normal 27" to 30" you might be a bit close to an OOA diver sharing air but "all the better to control you with my dear". I prefer a 5' hose on my primary and did use that for a while with an Air2. When the Air2 was competing for space with a slung pony, the Air2 was replaced with a bungeed octo. My wife still dives and swears by her Air2. When she had an incedent and lost her primary, she knew right where her Air2 was to be found. Either a bungeed octo or an integrated octo/inflator are preferable to a standard octo flailing around wherever.

While horizontal ascents are a nice skill to master, they are just not essential to safe OW recreational diving. But Jim does seem to teach at a higher level.

[JamesK]

So you never tried the one with the felt cover?

Felt? Hmmm. That could be nice for a 100th dive celebration. LOL..

[eelnoraa]

Longer hose definitely help when need to donate. The classic recreation length of octo is way to short in a sense that once you start sharing air, the only way for both diver to move is both go vertical and start ascent. You can't really swim under to get to the anchor line easily. Maintaining buoyance at safetly stop with such a short hose can also be difficult too. So I vote for going for a 5ft hose at lease.

Inflator octo is a different story. I still can't answer myself why. Definitely not more streamlining consider how long the inflator needs to be. Now think about failure point. If that octo/inflator combo fail in, you lose both the octo and the inflator. What do you get out of this system?

[klschnepp]

Oh no, this is turning into the zillionith "octo/inflator-good or evil?" thread. I was just patting myself on the back for my restraint....

---------- Post added May 23rd, 2012 at 05:49 PM ----------

Ah man! I was hoping to sneak by this particular hijack by saying I was comfortable with my integrated back up, but it seems we can't help ourselves!! :-) Thanks to all with advice, I will go with a longer hose. Not sure 5ft makes sense for me, but the arguments for it are pretty good. What I am not sure of is how one deals with the around the body routing in an OOA situation??? Not a tech diver, so any insight on this would be appreciated. I am also quite petite (only 2 inches taller than a 5ft hose). As such, I do try to keep my gear "streamlined" (restraint, people! LOL) to increase comfort/manage weight. So, I do think about the safety to streamline trade-off quite a bit (and before anyone has a go, if you are not hovering around 100lbs in body weight, zip it). Thanks!

[halocline]

---------- Post added May 23rd, 2012 at 05:49 PM ----------

I will go with a longer hose. Not sure 5ft makes sense for me, but the arguments for it are pretty good. What I am not sure of is how one deals with the around the body routing in an OOA situation??? Not a tech diver, so any insight on this would be appreciated. I am also quite petite (only 2 inches taller than a 5ft hose).

You should really try it before dismissing it. Your small size makes this even more appealing for two reasons; first, larger divers sometimes find that 5ft is actually a couple of inches shorter than ideal for this routing, so for you it could be perfect. It will not feel too long. Second, if you are in an OOA situation with a humongous brute, you're way better off having the option to keep a little distance. trust me on this one; the whole PADI idea of cramming together and air sharing off a 28-30" hose is just stupid in an actual emergency where people are scared and on the edge of control. Of course, if you were in a situation where you wanted to get up close and personal, the longer hose does not prevent you from doing so. It just doesn't force you to. A slightly longer-than-standard recreational hose, like in the dive rite video, doesn't really solve the problem IMO and presents its own problems in routing and streamlining. I have to say I'm a bit surprised dive rite didn't just get on board with the modified hogarthian routing. 5 ft of hose gets used up very quickly in water when you have two divers in less-than-ideal conditions.

Deploying the long hose takes a bit of practice, but it's really easy. You basically dip your chin and take the reg out, letting the hose go over your head. You could get some coaching from a technical diver who uses the hogarthian set up, but you really don't need it.

One other real benefit is that the long hose is very flexible and essentially removes any push-pull on the 2nd stage in your mouth that is so common with short hoses when you look from side to side. The hogarthian guys really figured this one out. If you're squeamish about buying a hose, it's easy to try, just get a coupler as I suggested and connect two hoses, try it in a pool. You'll like it.

[JamesK]

---------- Post added May 23rd, 2012 at 05:49 PM ----------

Ah man! I was hoping to sneak by this particular hijack by saying I was comfortable with my integrated back up, but it seems we can't help ourselves!! :-) Thanks to all with advice, I will go with a longer hose. Not sure 5ft makes sense for me, but the arguments for it are pretty good. What I am not sure of is how one deals with the around the body routing in an OOA situation??? Not a tech diver, so any insight on this would be appreciated. I am also quite petite (only 2 inches taller than a 5ft hose). As such, I do try to keep my gear "streamlined" (restraint, people! LOL) to increase comfort/manage weight. So, I do think about the safety to streamline trade-off quite a bit (and before anyone has a go, if you are not hovering around 100lbs in body weight, zip it). Thanks!

An OOA situation is very easy with the long hose. Actually easier IMO because of the extra hose. All you do is tip your head slightly forward as you remove your primary from your mouth. This allows the hose to slip over your head and give the OOA diver that extra room.

[klschnepp]

THANK YOU for the advice! I will try the 5 footer!!! Really appreciate the additional insight on this halocline and jamesk!!