I Need a camera for research

[LakerPride]

I am not too familiar with photography, but I am about to become familiar. I am a Fisheries Biology student, and I need a camera to take pictures at depths to 250' I have no idea what I am looking for. I have a Canon dSLR the T2, and can work it on land, but I doubt I am getting the best out of it. Also the wife won't let it go underwater. I need to be able to take high res pictures of damage caused by invasive species, so I need light and clarity. What direction should I go here???

Here is the kicker, it will be included in my grant expense so I am trying to keep overall expense to 1200 or less for camera, case, and all other accessories. There is a little wiggle room there but not a ton. So what are my options? I don't need the Go Go Gadget camera, but I need to be able to bring back good scientific data. Thanks

[ivakdiver]

So many good choices. I currently have a Canon S100 in a waterproof case that I use with great results.
I have an older model Sea Life camera, with wide angle lens and strobe which takes very good photos as well. I am in Ontario, so subject matter would be similar.
Depth would be a limiting factor, however, and you would probably need an aluminum housing. Are you diving to those depths? I can't imagine a student being asked to do that.
An aluminum housing can be quite expensive and that's not even including the price of a camera.

[Mark Derail]

You can check out the project OpenROV.com

If the quality doesn't have to be high, then video could do the trick.

A HD quality video can produce 1280x720 or 1920x1080 pictures, that's like 2MP - 3MP. The only reason you'd go with a camera to take still pictures would be for higher def, like 8MP or higher.
That greatly increases costs as you need one or two "flashes" called strobes.

By going video, you build a "torpedo" and put at the end of a 250' yellow nylon rope, deploy from a boat, using a "cheap" video camera inside the torpedo, like a GoPro HD w/UW housing, paired with a cheap UW LED flashlight (or two or three).

You put the GoPro w/UW housing in another "homemade" housing with the flashlights into a TUBE of say 8 to 12 inches diameter. Seal one end with extra thick plexiglass & silicone glue used for aquariums.

The other end you screw into the TUBE with the appropriate "adapter". Think plastic ABS tubing. You screw in an endcap that has a black rubber seal. Use a Big Wrench.
Fins on your torpedo - optional, might help steady the camera if there's current. Will look totally badass. Don't forget a paintjob.

Now the hard part - the tube needs to be partially filled with rocks to sink properly to offset the air inside the tube. Water WILL get in, which is why you use UW flashlights, and a GoPro with UW housing.
That are rated for 100' or 40M.

You're going deeper, so build a housing around the housing, to withstand the extra pressure. It will take awhile for the trapped air to leak out, thus giving you sufficient time to aim and record something.

Send it to 250' w/o the electronics, and after 30 mins, bring it back up quickly to see how much water accumulated inside. You want to time it that with (protected) electronics inside the housing doesn't fully flood, say halfway max.
Bring it up, empty it, send it back down, etc.

You should be able to build the "torpedo like" housing for less than 200$, the GoPro HD w/housing is what, 500$? 600$?
UW LED flashlights are cheap. I just bought one for 49$. The more the merrier.

You can also swap out the White LEDS for UV LED's, you might get better results. Also, find a "nerd" in your area that will slave with you for free, in exchange for bragging rights. Search for them in a local college (IT, electronics), your local Craigslist, or a comic book store.

This post is inspired by the XKCD cartoonist / nerd and I believe scientist. Submarines | xkcd
(http://blog.xkcd.com/2010/11/05/submarines/)

[supergaijin]

$1200 or less for use at the depths you're mentioning will be difficult to find new. Many cheaper housings aren't designed for use at that depth, and you'll be needing some external light sources. 2nd hand is probably the only solution and even then, you'll need some luck to find a decent setup IMO.

Potentially the Canon Powershot S90 or S95 may come down in price following the release of the S100.

The housings are generally in the US$500+ range.
A Sea and Sea Ys-01 strobe with a tray and arm is approx $700. If you're looking for quantity as opposed to quality of pictures, a video light may be appropriate and can usually be found cheaper.

[LakerPride]

I am not being asked to dive at all, as a matter of fact it is entirely up to me, and on top of that the University is making me sign a waiver and carry insurance in order to dive at all in conjunction with my research. I chose that depth because several areas that I want to include in my findings lie between 200-250 ffw. I like the ROV idea but I need to be able to take samples from the areas where we are diving. I am getting the idea that I either need to up the amount of money I'm willing to put into the rig or decrease the depth at which I operate. My bottom line is, no matter what the depth I take it from, I need clear distinct pictures. I need to be able to take measurements from them and use these pictures in presentations, lastly I am talking about some objects being as small as 1.5" diameter. I will modify my requirements a little and limit my dives to no deeper than 200 ffw, and up my price range to max 2000.

[Mark Derail]

Wow. Just won't happen. You need a new tactic - rent an rov. You won't be able to afford a single dive to send a trained human that deep, and ask him to focus on particulars to take pictures.

Find an ROV owner / operator and pay him. Not per hour, but explain your project & budget. Perhaps you can use PADI or NAUI to find such a person; or this board do searches on ROV. Hopefully you'll find someone that's willing to participate.

If you don't agree - reread my previous post. That's the best you can do. You can make a double-tube torpedo, where the second one (filled with air) has a trap door that when you pull another rope, the 2nd tube is 'opened' and thus sucks in a certain amount of water. Then release, trap door closes, bringing up a water sample.

However the best trap doors would be electric, based on a screw turned activated by an electric motor. The pressure at 200-250 is impressive. Thus extra costs, extra skills required.

FWIW, an aluminum housing for a DSLR camera - just the housing - costs more than 2k$. Then to remotely activate it??? Impossible, you'd have to put the DSLR in auto-shoot mode, a pic every second, that will stop only when the SD card is filled up, or you retrieve and stop it.

How to focus on tiny organisms? Auto focus cameras in the Point & Shoot style won't work well if they are moving. That is why video is so much easier. Less light is required - because the pixel density is much smaller - each pixel is bigger.



I am not being asked to dive at all, as a matter of fact it is entirely up to me, and on top of that the University is making me sign a waiver and carry insurance in order to dive at all in conjunction with my research. I chose that depth because several areas that I want to include in my findings lie between 200-250 ffw. I like the ROV idea but I need to be able to take samples from the areas where we are diving. I am getting the idea that I either need to up the amount of money I'm willing to put into the rig or decrease the depth at which I operate. My bottom line is, no matter what the depth I take it from, I need clear distinct pictures. I need to be able to take measurements from them and use these pictures in presentations, lastly I am talking about some objects being as small as 1.5" diameter. I will modify my requirements a little and limit my dives to no deeper than 200 ffw, and up my price range to max 2000.

Now if budget wasn't a limit - like the James Cameron dive - he had multiple cameras, most likely in multiple modes & focus ranges, shooting video.

In doing similar but for less money, imagine a 3 foot sealed bubble that can withstand the pressure. Inside the sphere you place a bunch of cameras like GoPro's, pointing in multiple directions.

Wow, taking samples... Just water? Soil? Organisms? Won't be easy.

[LakerPride]

We are testing algae blooms, and resource degradation due to other invasive species. My specific focus is to measure the depth of intrusion of Byssus of the Dreissena polymorpha into cultural relics (shipwrecks). I need to be able to dive to complete my work, If I have to stay at a certain depth because of lack of expertise then I need to find the person willing to teach me to do it myself. I won't stop though, and as you said I cannot afford to pay for a submersible, not to mention this is Great Lakes based, so the funding is not on the level of Marine study. I may not be able to get to 200 feet, but I am currently diving regularly to 140-150 ffw. I am not trying to be rude or confrontational at all, but I will worry about the diving aspect of it, I was just looking for a recommendation for a platform to withstand my depths. The reason I have to have great pictures is because as we all know the State of Michigan "owns" all the wrecks within it's waters and I cannot salvage samples, even for scientific testing, so I have to study it in its environment and bring back photos for later study. As far as samples go, I will collect algae, water, sediment, and tissue samples by hand. I apologize in advance if I am coming across terse, I hate trying to converse via forums as its hard to differentiate emotion. I appreciate your help

[Mark Derail]

Laker - insofar as emotions are concerned - just don't use any. :)

I try with my nerdy experience to give you ideas, something that can possibly work within your budget. If your same "study" was within recreational diving limits - that you dive at - it would be a different ballgame. Any cheap P&S camera with a housing rated to 40M will be fine. Numbered Ziplocks closed empty of air, use a syringe to gather water at specific locations and inject in the ziplocks partially.

A non-powered ROV (basically a tethered picture box) like I described is cheap, can be easily improved upon. However a GoPro (HD or normal) is a "pinhole" style camera - you cannot focus (fixed focus) - it's minimal focal point is beyond 1 foot.

I've exhausted my ideas, good luck with your project. I still think your best bet is video, high illumination, a torpedo-cam tethered to a boat moving slowly. Out of thousands of frames, some should be ok, an exercise in patience for sure.

The XKCD project was to use a "smart" computer and ethernet cable to relay digital in real-time, so you would not be "blind".

Last thought !!! What an ambitious project! Good luck.

[Larry C]

Are you tech certified? Before you can dive to 250ft., you'll need dive training and at least about 500 dives before you even think about tech diving (130ft. and deeper). Tech diving requires carrying doubles and breathing advanced nitrox (helium mix). Count on spending about $1200 for training alone and no one will rent you equipment without certification. You'll need an experienced tech dive buddy and a live boat in case of current. Are you dry suit certified. A dry suit is $800 to $3000, and you'll need a warm undergarment ($200-$400). Oh, and a tech fill for one dive will run you about $75-100.
I think you need to modify your research parameters to allow shallower dive sites (<100ft.) Then you can buy a really nice point and shoot camera like the S100, a factory housing and a decent strobe for about the $1200 you're talking about.

[LakerPride]

Larry I appreciate your advice, but that is exactly what I am trying to avoid by posting in the Photography section. I am Nitrox, Trimix, Dry Suit certified, I have a little over 400 dives. I am diving with a TDI certified wreck and advanced wreck, trimix, advanced trimix and deco diver. I own all my own equipment, I follow a DIR system as does he. I have dove with him before and trust him. I will be diving primarily to depths between 100-150 ffw, but there are two sites in particular where I need to collect data, that lie 180-210 ffw and 200-240 ffw respectively. I have until May of 2014 to complete my dives, after which I must compile my data for presentation by April of 2015.

[Mark Derail]

Laker - if you build & test manually a 'torpedo' like sensor in shallow water with you holding it, work out the bugs, then try from a boat for the other wrecks.

My worry is snag on the wreck though...

I've seen in the past other projects, listed on MakeZine. See link MAKE | Search (http://blog.makezine.com/search/?q=rov&sa=Search)

Methinks you need a sponsor...!

There are other 'Kickstarter' - like collaboration sites out there, for collecting funds for Project X. Get some 50 people to send you 20$ . . .

Plus it promotes science.

[ktomlinson]

Do you have any other photography equipment other than the t2? My wife and I bought a used ikelite housing (rated to 300') for $800, and a used ikelite strobe for around $400 for our canon. We still had to buy a ttl cable for $100, so even that is over $1200, but not by alot. You can insure the camera if it will help your wife let you take it underwater.

[bvanant]

I would start by getting a used Aquatica housing for the T2i and the Tokina 10-17 lens. A reasonable strobe and a small (4 inch) dome port for shooting CFWA. The diving part is up to you but this combo will give you publication quality photos to use for a thesis but it isn't yet clear what you are taking pictures of (in detail). A better idea of your subject(s) will help refine that idea.
Bill

[Mark Derail]

That's like 4k$ right there excluding the camera! That's the setup I wish to upgrade to in the future. I hate P&S, I tolerate the 4/3 & mirrorless, I love DSLR.


I would start by getting a used Aquatica housing for the T2i and the Tokina 10-17 lens. A reasonable strobe and a small (4 inch) dome port for shooting CFWA. The diving part is up to you but this combo will give you publication quality photos to use for a thesis but it isn't yet clear what you are taking pictures of (in detail). A better idea of your subject(s) will help refine that idea.
Bill

[jameseg]

LakerPride, I'd look at an IkeLite housing for a P&S camera like the Canon S series (S90, S95, or S100) or G series (G10, G11, G12). Those housings are only rated to 200', but that would cover most of the dives you'd be doing. And chances are, it would survive one slightly deeper dive to 220' or 230'. A package like this might be a good option, if you can find a G11 or G12 for a good price:

G11/G12 Housing & Strobe Pkg. - Ikelite Digital Housings - Ikelite Photo & Video - Optical Ocean Sales Underwater Photo - 800-359-1295! (http://www.opticaloceansales.com/ikelite-photo-video/ikelite-digital-housings/g11/g12-housing-strobe-pkg-/prod_515.html)

Take a look at the classifieds section of this site - packages like the one above pop up from time to time.

James

[LakerPride]

Awesome guys great info thanks, I'll take a look at all of those, what about the 10 Bar housing for the D90, I can get a D90 with lens for 1100, and a case for 600, then I would need to pony up for the strobe out of pocket. The 10 Bar says they are rated (go figure) to 10 Bar or 300'.

[diversteve]

10Bar also makes a housing for the Canon G11/12 and the S95. I don't know if you noticed but the suggested working pressure for their housings is 60M/180' - IDK what that means exactly.

What about an HD video camera instead? This one shoots 11MP stills also:

The GoPro Hero HD2 - Wearable and gear mountable, waterproof to 197′ (60m), capable of capturing professional full 170º wide angle 1080p video and 11 megapixel photos at a rate of 10 photos per second. $299 - http://gopro.com/cameras/hd-hero2-outdoor-edition/ IDK if what your filming moves but it also has a .5 sec Time lapse mode. And an integrated battery warmer for cold temps. An LCD BacPac is $80 more. It shoots nice HD video, there's examples in the U/W Video forum here on SB.

If you need more depth, Sartek makes a GoPro housing good to 750' - yes seven hundred and fifty - for $400. It's not clear from their website what controls are accessible though if any - Sartek Industries Product Details (http://www.sarind.com/proddetail.php?prod=SGP-DHSG) An option is a clear display back - I would assume that's so you can see the Bacpac LCD.

They also sell a combo camera/housing package good to 240' for $295 but it only does 8MP stills. Sartek Industries Product Details (http://www.sarind.com/proddetail.php?prod=SSC-HD)

Of course then you need light(s). Aditech makes a 4320lumen/40 watt video light that retails for $635 - $735 if you want it in a canister model - might be easier as the GoPro housings are tiny and this light isn't. Those may be prices in Europe though, Reef Photo lists it at $949.

It's good to 200M/660' The burn time is an hour at 100% and 3 hours at 60%. That should be plenty of light even 250' down in the Great Lakes - but verify that with someone locally. It's a really bright light, my buddy has one. Shop - Mangrove - Aditech | Underwater video and photo online store (http://www.aditech-uw.com/en/underwater-lighting/cat-239-242-245-364/1.html)

They also sell a smaller 2280lumen/20 watt model. It's $790. Reef Photo in Ft. Lauderdale sells them. http://reefphoto.com/shop/index.php?manufacturers_id=58&zenid=b0d9c806c88dfdc2b88ee75e651ee642&main_page=index

Add about $200 for a good tray/handle/arm combo and you're still under 2K - and a lot deeper than you need.

When you push a 200' rated Ikelite poly housing past that, the controls often compress and freeze up - sometimes activating whatever they're controlling non-stop. So although the box/glands can take it, you can't always use it deeper.

[LakerPride]

That's what I was worried about, the functionality at depth. I need to be able to take closeup pictures of Zebra Mussel formations on wrecks, water intakes, and power/communication lines. Also I need to be able to take wider angle pictures of algae blooms and mussel colonies. Also I want to be able to add as much perspective as I can to the location in reference to position on the wreck/intake etc. I will take a close look at your suggestions, thanks!

[Mark Derail]

Remember the drawback to the GoPro - that you don't have with P&S cameras - the ability to take closeup pictures.

[Larry C]

Fisheye FIX S100 Underwater Housing for Canon PowerShot S100 Camera (http://www.backscatter.com/sku/fe-fixs100-sa.lasso)
This option gives you a 230ft. depth limit and a quality camera but no strobe at that price. You might be able to rent one. I don't know if the fix housing allows the built in flash. It might be useful for the type of macro stuff you're looking at, but if the water quality is poor you'll get a lot of backscatter.

[Mark Derail]

Here's an idea - make a lightbox - a big (say 2 feet by 2 feet) plexiglass cube. One side of the cube is completely open.
The opposite side a hole just for putting the camera lens in.

The strobes are outside the cube, and perhaps not necessary, if multiple UW flashlights are used around the cube, all pointing "in".

The cube will stabilize the water inside, so for macro / closeups, water won't be drifting. If you wait a few mins, would settle. No need for using a flash / strobe, thus no backscatter. The LED flashlights are cheap - I recommend alkalines, so should water seep in, electrolysis won't kick in (as much) though it being freshwater, perhaps not a problem.

Use aquarium "glue" which is basically silicone, and your local Home Hardware will cut (say 1$ per cut) your plexi accurately for you. Then make risers for the flashlights to "sit" on for perhaps a 30-45 degree angle. Or just put them on the same side as the cam pointing "in".

I would use a minimum of four flashlights, and have a fifth one for shining a particular spot / mussel.

Also, the camera might want to "float" - be sure to use some weights to make it neutral. The box will want to sink slowly, the camera will want to float.

I also suggest a cheap P&S like a S100 or S95.

Another idea - photo wise - take multiple macro shots - and stitch them together - to make an extra big picture, much like Nasa + Hubble do. Don't have to buy photoshop, free GIMP or Paint.Net work well.

126261

[diversteve]

I need to be able to take closeup pictures of Zebra Mussel formationsDefine closeup i.e. 3 feet or 3 inches - because what Mark posted applies. If you need macro I'd go back to a housed camera and strobes. The depth is going to make that costly though probably.

[LakerPride]

I mean close as in 3-4 inches. But like I said I also need wide angle for perspective.
@Mark, that is an outstanding idea, I have some acrylic left over from a tank I made. Great Idea thanks, when I get done building it I'll post pictures of it for you

[Mark Derail]

I'd also include a ruler made of material, like the ones used for measuring our waist.

So you can wrap partially around the cube, and in every pic have a scale.

The ruler, being perfect straight in your shot, will also help you later for adjusting the vignetting effect caused by (some) wide angle lenses.

ie, the curves, or curving around the edges. Straight ruler won't be straight. With the photo editing software you can fix.

Just need to figure out a latching mechanism for the soft material ruler. Perhaps using a hole-punch, and the "open" end has notches made with a dremel, that the ruler attaches to.

I'd make a few anchor points up & down along both sides, making sure they are plumb.

[LakerPride]

I wonder what the buoyancy of this contraption will be with acrylic? Do you Think I will need to offset it either positively or negatively? I think i'll make sure it's quite negative, to help with stability on the bottom, then just send it up with my lift bag when I'm done.

[Mark Derail]

The acrylic box, filled with water, will be negative. The camera though will probably be positive. I mentioned previously; you will want to add weights to the camera, so that everything sinks evenly.

I'd use a long 12" x 1/2" bolt, and add nuts screwed in until "just right".