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mr_adrian70
June 11th, 2012, 12:11 AM
Had some scary Open Water certification experiences this weekend. After a long four weekends of classroom, and pool training it was finally time for me to get certified this weekend. We all met at a place called Blue Hole in Santa Rosa NM. Its a 8o foot sinkhole with crystal clear waters that alot of people go to out here go to get their OW certification.

The first mishap happened on our first dive Saturday. We were about 40ft down were after we demonstrated our 7 basic skills we took a tour around the hole. I was cruising around enjoying myself when i decided to check my depth and see how much air i had used. When i grab my guage to look at it all of a sudden air starts spewing where the hose attaches to the SPG. I grab my instructors attention, and show him what was happening. He tried to fix it underwater but was unable to. I was quickly losing all my air! My SPG showed i had about 500 psi left. Instructor signaled everyone to start going up. I ended up having to air share with my instructor, and we went up to the surface after making a safety stop. When we got back up my air tank was completely dry. I must admit this was a little scary. Air sharing was something we had practiced in the pool, and here we were having a very real emergency where air sharing was a necessity. We replaced my regulator, and made 2 more dives Saturday without another incident. I really enjoyed myself after that one mishap.

The really terrifying incidents happened on Sunday. We went down again to about 30ft and practiced the skill where the instructor turns off your air, and you swim like crazy to the surface, and manually inflate your BC. The drill went well, and afterwards we all swam around the hole again at about 50ft. Another instructor had placed little plastic eggs on ledges in the wall in various locations for fun. So we all swam around Looking for these eggs. There were a couple of times when i tried to pick up an egg and ended up dropping them. The first time i dropped one i was able to swim down hard, and grab it before it fell to the bottom. The 2nd time i dropped one i swam down hard to try and get it but realized i was going too deep so i gave up, and just let it drop. I then came back up to where everyone else was. I felt exerted after that last sprint and was trying to continue swiming along with the group, but i just couldnt slow down my breathing after sprinting down to save that last egg. I started taking really big breaths, and i just couldnt seem to get enough air in my lungs. I started hypervenilating bad! I knew something was really wrong, and i needed to try to slow down my breathing, but despite my efforts i just couldnt catch my breath. It felt like a boa constrictor was wrapped around my chest, and squeezing the life outa me.
It was then that panic set in! I couldnt breathe, and i couldnt take it anymore! I seriously felt like i was going to die! I bolted to the surface as quick as i could! Nitrogeon be damned i had to breathe! When i got the surface i still was hypervenilating horribly but managed to inflate my bc and swim to the side. Some people rushed over and tried to help me. I felt like i was going to pass out. They helped me remove my equipment and that enabled me to breathe a little better. But then all this stuff started coming out of my lungs! I started coughing uncontrolably, and spitting out all this foamy pink tinged phlem. I think the pink tint must have been blood. My lungs felt raw. I wasnt congested so i dont know where all this stuff i was coughing up was coming from, but was sure coughing up alot! An instuctor who came up shortly after me took me back, and gave me O2 and after alot more coughing and hacking i started to feel better.

I still had some skills to complete in order to be certified, and since i was feeling better i went down to the water again to complete them. One of the skills was just having all my equipment on and snorkeling around the hole. I was feeling better until i got back in the water! I got about 10ft out, with my mask in the water,able to see where my trumatic experience had happened, and my lungs started feeling like that had been rubbed raw with sandpaper again. I knew i wasnt going to be able to make it around the hole and started breathing fast and shallow again. Before i knew it that boa constrictor had come back and was squeezing all the breath outa me! I couldnt catch my breath, was hypervenilating really bad, and panicking. My instructor came over to me and managed to calm me down, and slow down my breathing some. He took off my weight belt, and loosened up my BC to releave some of the pressure i felt around my chest. It was a real struggle but i managed to snorkel the rest of the way. I then managed to do 3 more short buddy tows. With 2 guys helping to keep me calm , and breathing slowly i struggled but still manged to complete my last skill of removing my BC at the surface, and putting it back on. I made it! I went through pure terror, and hell, but im now a certified scuba diver! Barely made it through, but mission was still accomplished! My lungs are still sore, but im not coughing like i was so hopefully ill be fine. It was quite the weekend!

DukeAMO
June 11th, 2012, 12:15 AM
Please call DAN! It sounds to me like this could be something serious.

gcarter
June 11th, 2012, 12:15 AM
See a doctor. Seriously.

BigBubbaJ
June 11th, 2012, 12:18 AM
Hi Adrian,

I'm from Colorado and have done many dives at the blue hole.
I'm glad you're alright. Based on my experience, What you experienced after your panicked ascent sounds like dcs to me. I'm shocked that after this your instructor let you back into to the water.
I'm glad you're still having fun, and I'm no instructor, but this is not what it's all about.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

BigBubbaJ
June 11th, 2012, 12:23 AM
And yes, I agree... Call DAN and see a doctor ASAP.

Scott
June 11th, 2012, 01:00 AM
Please call DAN! It sounds to me like this could be something serious.


See a doctor. Seriously.


And yes, I agree... Call DAN and see a doctor ASAP.
^^^^^^ Enough said.

Welcome to ScubaBoard, sorry this had to be one of your first topics.
We'll save the instructor errors for another day and forum.

requin02
June 11th, 2012, 01:22 AM
I really can not believe an instructor would let back in the water after a panic bolt to the surface, coughing pink foam and recieving O2. No way.

r.

tyesai
June 11th, 2012, 01:22 AM
I'm far from an alarmist but spitting and coughing "foamy pink tinged phlem" can't be good.

Congrats on the cert though!

I'd go to a doctor to BTW....

Peter_C
June 11th, 2012, 01:40 AM
The last time I saw foamy blood coming from someones mouth, they were dead.

D.A.N. Emergency Hotline 1-919-684-9111

RonFrank
June 11th, 2012, 01:41 AM
That pink stuff was likely blood. You may have a lung expansion injury. Seek professional help ASAP.

Selchie in LB
June 11th, 2012, 02:00 AM
Wow that is crazy! What the heck was the instructor thinking letting you back into the water even if only to snorkel!

DCS is serious and it does sound like you had a lung injury.

aquaregia
June 11th, 2012, 02:25 AM
I am extremely surprised that you managed to drain a tank with a failure on the HP line.

koozemani
June 11th, 2012, 03:03 AM
The last time I saw foamy blood coming from someones mouth, they were dead.

D.A.N. Emergency Hotline 1-919-684-9111 (tel:1-919-684-9111)

+1. Sounds like a lung injury.

t-mac
June 11th, 2012, 03:15 AM
As said, seek medical help. It sounds like your over-exerted yourself chasing the egg, causing you to start over-breathing your regulator. Your description of a boa constrictor is exactly what it feels like. This is a very good lesson in why we need to take it easy diving and avoid exertion. It can induce panic, as you found out, and it can actually cause you to pass out underwater in extreme cases -- not good.

Once you've talked to DAN and/or seen a doctor, please come back and tell us what they said.

Congratulations on the cert!

eelnoraa
June 11th, 2012, 03:24 AM
On top of letting your back in after O2 treatment, turning tank valve off and do CESA in OW class doesnt sound right to me either.

Anyway, glad you are OK. But seek professional help for sure

japan-diver
June 11th, 2012, 05:36 AM
There are so many things wrong with this post that I am scared to comment. If an instructor let you back in the water after coughing up blood to do anything he should loose his instructor card and worse. You need to get checked out by a doctor ASAP- hopefully someone who knows a bit about diving as it is very possible you suffered a pulmonary embolism - at the time you should have been taken to the hospital upon surfacing. I do not know of any agency that has a skill where the instructor turns your air off and you swim to the surface and I have been teaching scuba for over 17 years full time for a variety of agencies.

jar546
June 11th, 2012, 06:29 AM
We went down again to about 30ft and practiced the skill where the instructor turns off your air, and you swim like crazy to the surface, and manually inflate your BC.

I'm still stuck on that part, let alone the lung expansion injury. Who teaches to "swim like crazy to the surface"

This is one reason we don't leave 25' until after all skills are completed for certification

TSandM
June 11th, 2012, 06:30 AM
Does anybody else think this story doesn't quite ring true?

To begin with, a HP hose leak can't empty a tank the way the OP describes. HP hose leaks leak very little volume. If the OP had 500 psi when he saw the leak, and came up on someone else's gas, he wouldn't have had an empty tank at the surface. Look at Curt Bowen's numbers on leak rates: Life Ending Seconds • ADVANCED DIVER MAGAZINE • By Curt Bowen (http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/articles/lifeendingseconds/lifeendingseconds.html) An HP orifice leak emptied about .9 cf/min; if the OP was an on Al80 with 500 psi, he had about 12.5 cf in his tank, and therefore had at least 13 or more minutes before the tank would have been empty from the leak.

And as bad as I think dive instruction can be, I simply cannot imagine an instructor being callous enough to ignore a student who a) panicked; b) did an uncontrolled ascent, and c) ended up on the surface coughing up pink foam. This sounds like a case of immersion pulmonary edema, causing dyspnea at depth, but it could conceivably be pulmonary barotrauma. I have seen instructors abort a dive and refuse to allow a student back in the water for a nosebleed. I have a difficult time imagining an instructor allowing a student who had to be placed on oxygen to reenter the water.

Something just doesn't smell right here.

jar546
June 11th, 2012, 06:48 AM
Does anybody else think this story doesn't quite ring true?

To begin with, a HP hose leak can't empty a tank the way the OP describes. HP hose leaks leak very little volume. If the OP had 500 psi when he saw the leak, and came up on someone else's gas, he wouldn't have had an empty tank at the surface. Look at Curt Bowen's numbers on leak rates: Life Ending Seconds • ADVANCED DIVER MAGAZINE • By Curt Bowen (http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/articles/lifeendingseconds/lifeendingseconds.html) An HP orifice leak emptied about .9 cf/min; if the OP was an on Al80 with 500 psi, he had about 12.5 cf in his tank, and therefore had at least 13 or more minutes before the tank would have been empty from the leak.

And as bad as I think dive instruction can be, I simply cannot imagine an instructor being callous enough to ignore a student who a) panicked; b) did an uncontrolled ascent, and c) ended up on the surface coughing up pink foam. This sounds like a case of immersion pulmonary edema, causing dyspnea at depth, but it could conceivably be pulmonary barotrauma. I have seen instructors abort a dive and refuse to allow a student back in the water for a nosebleed. I have a difficult time imagining an instructor allowing a student who had to be placed on oxygen to reenter the water.

Something just doesn't smell right here.

My suspicion also

If it were on my forum I would probably do an IP address crosscheck out of curiosity

Capt Scotty
June 11th, 2012, 07:09 AM
Too many things wrong with this post on so many levels...........As a instructor would you sign this card? As a customer is this guy really a instructor?

dtownsend2000
June 11th, 2012, 07:18 AM
If what you say is true, then you really should see a doctor (preferably one with diving knowledge) as soon as possible!

Jim Lapenta
June 11th, 2012, 08:18 AM
I'm with Lynne on this. Too much stuff here to believe. There are some really bad instructors out there but this is beyond belief. I can't imagine any divers nearby let alone an instructor allowing this poster back in the water. I call bs on this.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

katepnatl
June 11th, 2012, 08:44 AM
I was thinking that I didn't want to say what Lynne and Jim have said but it was what I was thinking :D.

There are one of two things going on here:
1 - For some unknown reason someone has created an elaborate scenario that has no basis in reality
2 - A very bad OW cert session happened over the weekend and the OP's description of it may differ some from what actually happened

After the "rush to the surface like crazy" comment about the CESA I started reading the post sideways... (eg, "where is this going?"). I had a strong sense of "there is no way this is real" when a diver was not immediately sent to hospital asap, given O2 treatment was required for coughing up bloody froth (however it was described) which was further reinforced by the fact the diver got BACK in the water to finish cert dives. However, in all cases, I guess there is always the chance that there could have been misunderstanding about what was going on (why I have option #2 above).

So - my question is back to the OP - if I am not mistaken, all of the agencies are pretty clear about the signs and symptoms of the AGE and Lung Over-expansion Injuries in their training materials. Had you had a chance to review your training materials prior to these dives? If so, can you tell us what made you think it was a good idea to go back in the water immediately after an episode such as you experienced?

SeaHorse81
June 11th, 2012, 08:55 AM
Much of the language in the opening post sounds more like story-telling than an incident report, including strategically placed buzz words that would be guaranteed to get a reaction. Could just be a personal style thing, and apologies to OP if this is the case. If this story is actually true, I'm glad you're safe.

Cave Diver
June 11th, 2012, 08:59 AM
I agree that this sounds a bit much., but the timing of this post is consistent with his intro post: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/introductions-greets/419401-new-diving-board.html#post6331420

Let's not start jumping to any conclusions until we hear more from the OP, shall we?



If it were on my forum I would probably do an IP address crosscheck out of curiosity

An IP check is clean and consistent with location.




And remember folks, this IS a Green Zone, so let's give the OP the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise and address your responses accordingly.

herbdb
June 11th, 2012, 09:12 AM
Wow, my first thought on reading this was "Troll", and I hope I was right. There is so much wrong that it hardly seems possible. Lets hope the OP has not sustained serious injury.

t4e
June 11th, 2012, 09:15 AM
ok, i am no expert by any means but i really struggle with this comment



We went down again to about 30ft and practiced the skill where the instructor turns off your air, and you swim like crazy to the surface, and manually inflate your BC.

what you're describing here is not practicing CESA, but rather practicing something that every instructor warns you against doing in any situation....panicking and bolting to the surface

in training when you practice CESA you will:

- Inhale deeply
- Give your instructor the OOA sign
- SLOWLY ascend making a continuous AHHHHHH sound
- As you ascend you deflate your BCD
- At the surface you orally inflate your BCD

the instructor will be right there to assist you in case you ascend too fast

someone correct me if i'm wrong in any of those steps

herbdb
June 11th, 2012, 09:19 AM
Does The SSI skill require an instructor to actually turn off a students air at 30'?

Hawkwood
June 11th, 2012, 09:39 AM
Does The SSI skill require an instructor to actually turn off a students air at 30'?

Sorry if I missed it, but did the OP ever say which agency this class was completed with?

Once we know, we can collectively provide the OP with the contact information so the OP can file a quality management complaint.

Bill

JamesK
June 11th, 2012, 09:51 AM
Does The SSI skill require an instructor to actually turn off a students air at 30'?

No. I just did a video for an SSI OW class and this is NOT how it happened. A typical CESA is done as described above.

This post literally scares the hell out of me to think instructors like this could exist. I am hoping this is simply a story, if it is not, you seriously need to get medical attention NOW! However, judging by your introduction post, you are legit, it also shows that you are in fact an SSI student to answer Hawkwoods post.

Please do yourself a huge favor and call DAN.

g1138
June 11th, 2012, 09:53 AM
Sorry if I missed it, but did the OP ever say which agency this class was completed with?

Once we know, we can collectively provide the OP with the contact information so the OP can file a quality management complaint.

Bill

In his intro and greetings post he said he was taking an SSI OW course.

DivemasterDennis
June 11th, 2012, 10:04 AM
As I agree with TSandM as to the questionable nature of the related story, I will not add anything else here.
DivemasterDennis

---------- Post added ----------

As I agree with TSandM as to the questionable nature of the related story, I will not add anything else here. If anyone was at the blue hole at the time related in the post, perhaps they can identify the supposed "instructor" or verify the event.
DivemasterDennis

jaycanwk
June 11th, 2012, 11:19 AM
Had some scary Open Water certification experiences this weekend. After a long four weekends of classroom, and pool training it was finally time for me to get certified this weekend. We all met at a place called Blue Hole in Santa Rosa NM. Its a 8o foot sinkhole with crystal clear waters that alot of people go to out here go to get their OW certification.

The first mishap happened on our first dive Saturday. We were about 40ft down were after we demonstrated our 7 basic skills we took a tour around the hole. I was cruising around enjoying myself when i decided to check my depth and see how much air i had used. When i grab my guage to look at it all of a sudden air starts spewing where the hose attaches to the SPG. I grab my instructors attention, and show him what was happening. He tried to fix it underwater but was unable to. I was quickly losing all my air! My SPG showed i had about 500 psi left. Instructor signaled everyone to start going up. I ended up having to air share with my instructor, and we went up to the surface after making a safety stop. When we got back up my air tank was completely dry. I must admit this was a little scary. Air sharing was something we had practiced in the pool, and here we were having a very real emergency where air sharing was a necessity. We replaced my regulator, and made 2 more dives Saturday without another incident. I really enjoyed myself after that one mishap.

The really terrifying incidents happened on Sunday. We went down again to about 30ft and practiced the skill where the instructor turns off your air, and you swim like crazy to the surface, and manually inflate your BC. The drill went well, and afterwards we all swam around the hole again at about 50ft. Another instructor had placed little plastic eggs on ledges in the wall in various locations for fun. So we all swam around Looking for these eggs. There were a couple of times when i tried to pick up an egg and ended up dropping them. The first time i dropped one i was able to swim down hard, and grab it before it fell to the bottom. The 2nd time i dropped one i swam down hard to try and get it but realized i was going too deep so i gave up, and just let it drop. I then came back up to where everyone else was. I felt exerted after that last sprint and was trying to continue swiming along with the group, but i just couldnt slow down my breathing after sprinting down to save that last egg. I started taking really big breaths, and i just couldnt seem to get enough air in my lungs. I started hypervenilating bad! I knew something was really wrong, and i needed to try to slow down my breathing, but despite my efforts i just couldnt catch my breath. It felt like a boa constrictor was wrapped around my chest, and squeezing the life outa me.
It was then that panic set in! I couldnt breathe, and i couldnt take it anymore! I seriously felt like i was going to die! I bolted to the surface as quick as i could! Nitrogeon be damned i had to breathe! When i got the surface i still was hypervenilating horribly but managed to inflate my bc and swim to the side. Some people rushed over and tried to help me. I felt like i was going to pass out. They helped me remove my equipment and that enabled me to breathe a little better. But then all this stuff started coming out of my lungs! I started coughing uncontrolably, and spitting out all this foamy pink tinged phlem. I think the pink tint must have been blood. My lungs felt raw. I wasnt congested so i dont know where all this stuff i was coughing up was coming from, but was sure coughing up alot! An instuctor who came up shortly after me took me back, and gave me O2 and after alot more coughing and hacking i started to feel better.

I still had some skills to complete in order to be certified, and since i was feeling better i went down to the water again to complete them. One of the skills was just having all my equipment on and snorkeling around the hole. I was feeling better until i got back in the water! I got about 10ft out, with my mask in the water,able to see where my trumatic experience had happened, and my lungs started feeling like that had been rubbed raw with sandpaper again. I knew i wasnt going to be able to make it around the hole and started breathing fast and shallow again. Before i knew it that boa constrictor had come back and was squeezing all the breath outa me! I couldnt catch my breath, was hypervenilating really bad, and panicking. My instructor came over to me and managed to calm me down, and slow down my breathing some. He took off my weight belt, and loosened up my BC to releave some of the pressure i felt around my chest. It was a real struggle but i managed to snorkel the rest of the way. I then managed to do 3 more short buddy tows. With 2 guys helping to keep me calm , and breathing slowly i struggled but still manged to complete my last skill of removing my BC at the surface, and putting it back on. I made it! I went through pure terror, and hell, but im now a certified scuba diver! Barely made it through, but mission was still accomplished! My lungs are still sore, but im not coughing like i was so hopefully ill be fine. It was quite the weekend!


If your Instructor allowed you back in the water after all that instead of taking you directly to the hospital you may consider having him explain his side of the story in a court room !!!

Although, like others have said, this seems to be too much to be true.

boulderjohn
June 11th, 2012, 12:00 PM
The post starting this thread has me as mystified as pretty much everyone else on this thread. There is indeed anAlbuquerque SSI dive shop[/URL] that has a class schedule that coincides precisely with both the OP's introductory post for his confined water training and the open water dives at the Blue Hole. That part makes perfect sense.

As others have pointed out, there is a lot to be confused about after that. I hope mr_adran70 will take a few minutes to answer a couple of questions very clearly.

1. Can you repeat in as much detail as possible the situation with the air leaking from your spg? As some people have pointed out, because the opening in a high pressure hose is so very tiny, even if you were to cut the hose in half with a bolt cutter it will not lose air as quickly as you seem to be saying.

2. You spoke about "the skill where the instructor turns off your air, and you swim like crazy to the surface." Could you please describe this in much greater detail as well? Are you certain the instructor shuts off your air? Do you keep the regulator in your mouth as you ascend? When you say "swim like crazy," what does that mean--do you swim as fast as you possibly can?

Nosnhoj
June 11th, 2012, 12:51 PM
If he was doing the skills, then touring the hole - its entirely possible that the 500psi after the leak is true...


We were about 40ft down were after we demonstrated our 7 basic skills we took a tour around the hole. I was cruising around enjoying myself when i decided to check my depth and see how much air i had used. When i grab my guage to look at it all of a sudden air starts spewing where the hose attaches to the SPG.

SnorkelLA
June 11th, 2012, 12:55 PM
From reading this thread, I've come up with the following.

1. You should not, with ANY ANY ANY agency with any instructor worth his salt have been given a certification so easily, especially after your episode. If I was the instructor I would have either not certified you (and then fired myself for being a dumbass) or given you an extended private lesson.

2. That instructor is STUPID, he did everything some what right until the O2 was given, and he deserves to be immediately fired and revoked of his membership to instruct

3. Call DAN on your way to the hospital


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

dfx
June 11th, 2012, 12:57 PM
2. You spoke about "the skill where the instructor turns off your air, and you swim like crazy to the surface." Could you please describe this in much greater detail as well? Are you certain the instructor shuts off your air? Do you keep the regulator in your mouth as you ascend? When you say "swim like crazy," what does that mean--do you swim as fast as you possibly can?

And also: were you told to continuously exhale while ascending? Did you do that?

t4e
June 11th, 2012, 01:12 PM
From reading this thread, I've come up with the following.

2. That instructor is STUPID, he did everything some what right until the O2 was given, and he deserves to be immediately fired and revoked of his membership to instruct



i'm not singling you out, i just don't have the time to get all the posts that assume the story is true and blame the instructor

IMO we should refrain from name calling, insulting and laying blame on the instructor until we find out with certainty that the OP's story is indeed true, there's always two sides to a story and we haven't heard the other yet

nimoh
June 11th, 2012, 01:20 PM
i'm not singling you out, i just don't have the time to get all the posts that assume the story is true and blame the instructor

IMO we should refrain from name calling, insulting and laying blame on the instructor until we find out with certainty that the OP's story is indeed true, there's always two sides to a story and we haven't heard the other yet


I agree, we are in a flame free zone after all.

Probably best to sit and wait for the OP to address some of the questions, or, given the details that have been posted, I doubt it will be long before an eyewitness or even the instructor chimes in to set the story straight.

awap
June 11th, 2012, 01:32 PM
I would not be so quick to condemn the OP. The story, from a diver in OW training, does leave you with a few questions. But most of my questions deal with the instructors, not the student. I do hope the OP contacted DAN an sought medical help.

flots am
June 11th, 2012, 01:40 PM
I am extremely surprised that you managed to drain a tank with a failure on the HP line.

Yep.

It's not especially relevant to the injury, but being OOA had very little to do with the HP leak. There is a tiny (pinhole) orfice in the HP hose fitting where it attaches to the regulator. Draining the tank from a HP leak takes a really long time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-dhP_jSO6I)even if the hose is cut right off in the middle.

Everybody involved should have kept a better eye on the tank pressure.

flots.

SnorkelLA
June 11th, 2012, 01:47 PM
i'm not singling you out, i just don't have the time to get all the posts that assume the story is true and blame the instructor

IMO we should refrain from name calling, insulting and laying blame on the instructor until we find out with certainty that the OP's story is indeed true, there's always two sides to a story and we haven't heard the other yet

That's why I put "From reading this thread, I've come up with the following". But, it's also the OP's LIFE we're talking about; this type of thing is something that needs to be reported to the respective agency. Any instructor that just allows a student to get back in the water after what is certain to be a lung overexpansion injury should not be instructing.

I put the first sentence there as a bit of a disclaimer that what I wrote ONLY comes from reading the thread, assuming everything in the thread is true and not exaggerated.

Sorry if I was vague, probably should have put a bit more of a disclaimer, who knows, there could be more to the story than we know. I just hope the OP is still healthy and around now to answer any questions :)

TwoBitTxn
June 11th, 2012, 01:52 PM
The first mishap happened on our first dive Saturday. We were about 40ft down were after we demonstrated our 7 basic skills we took a tour around the hole. I was cruising around enjoying myself when i decided to check my depth and see how much air i had used. When i grab my guage to look at it all of a sudden air starts spewing where the hose attaches to the SPG. I grab my instructors attention, and show him what was happening. He tried to fix it underwater but was unable to. I was quickly losing all my air! My SPG showed i had about 500 psi left. Instructor signaled everyone to start going up. I ended up having to air share with my instructor, and we went up to the surface after making a safety stop. When we got back up my air tank was completely dry.

This section is garnering some attention. To a new diver, the profuse bubbles from a leak like this really would seem like all their air is going in a hurry. So, at 40 feet and 500 psi he develops a high pressure leak. He then states he is sharing air with his instructor and they do a (lets assume here) 3 minute safety stop. I know he doesn't state how long, but I think it's a safe assumption. I think it's reasonable to approximate 4-6 minutes from noticing the leak at 40 feet to surface. Air tank completely dry? Maybe not. Air not hissing rapidly from the blown o-ring at the SPG giving the appearance of a totally empty tank? Possible?

I've seen Kurt Bowen's study. I've seen the Scuba Toys videos on You Tube. I'm not going to pile on with regards to the rest of this dramatic story.

nimoh
June 11th, 2012, 02:00 PM
That's why I put "From reading this thread, I've come up with the following"

I put that there as a bit of a disclaimer that what I wrote ONLY comes from reading the thread, assuming everything in the thread is true and not exaggerated.

Sorry if I was vague, probably should have put a bit more of a disclaimer :)


I think everyone who posted intended the same disclaimer, t4e just grabbed yours as an example. I agree with t4e, that name calling should be avoided and blame should be deferred until all the facts are in.

---------- Post added ----------


This section is garnering some attention. To a new diver, the profuse bubbles from a leak like this really would seem like all their air is going in a hurry. So, at 40 feet and 500 psi he develops a high pressure leak. He then states he is sharing air with his instructor and they do a (lets assume here) 3 minute safety stop. I know he doesn't state how long, but I think it's a safe assumption. I think it's reasonable to approximate 4-6 minutes from noticing the leak at 40 feet to surface. Air tank completely dry? Maybe not. Air not hissing rapidly from the blown o-ring at the SPG giving the appearance of a totally empty tank? Possible?

I've seen Kurt Bowen's study. I've seen the Scuba Toys videos on You Tube. I'm not going to pile on with regards to the rest of this dramatic story.

when the OP was at 500psi, then noticed a leak, it likely scared the crap out of them causing heavy breathing while trying to get the instructors attention. The OP may have breathed the tank down to almost nothing, then, while sharing air to the surface, the HP leak took care of the last little bit.

Now, I'm not saying this is what happened, I wasn't there. Just trying to present a scenario that may support the OP's story. It was probably a traumatic event for the OP and I would expect some facts to get mixed up. That being said, I have no suggestion to support that it is a good idea to go back in the water after coughing up blood

dfx
June 11th, 2012, 02:07 PM
when the OP was at 500psi, then noticed a leak, it likely scared the crap out of them causing heavy breathing while trying to get the instructors attention. The OP may have breathed the tank down to almost nothing, then, while sharing air to the surface, the HP leak took care of the last little bit.

Of course, with the SPG blown, there was no way of knowing how much pressure was really left in the tank.

nimoh
June 11th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Of course, with the SPG blown, there was no way of knowing how much pressure was really left in the tank.

unless it stops leaking :)

DanLW
June 11th, 2012, 02:57 PM
It's probably going to be a while before the OP gets back to us if he heeded our advice. He'll probably be in the hospital for a little while if what really happened is as serious as it sounded in the post. I'd love to hear more of this story. If what really happened is as serious as how we're all reading this, action must be taken.

silvana
June 11th, 2012, 03:08 PM
instructor turns off your air, and you swim like crazy to the surface, and manually inflate your BC.

Oh my god. I love my instructor.

Laurie S.
June 11th, 2012, 03:14 PM
In my SSI OW class, we had our air turned off and had to go to the surface, but it was done in the deep end of the swimming pool.

RonFrank
June 11th, 2012, 03:42 PM
I was certified at BH and know most of the instructors at the shops in ABQ. I do not think any instructor would knowingly allow an OW student to continue diving after a pulmonary type of incident. I think it best to wait until the facts are in rather than more speculation.

LavaSurfer
June 11th, 2012, 04:05 PM
Does anybody else think this story doesn't quite ring true?

To begin with, a HP hose leak can't empty a tank the way the OP describes. HP hose leaks leak very little volume. If the OP had 500 psi when he saw the leak, and came up on someone else's gas, he wouldn't have had an empty tank at the surface. Look at Curt Bowen's numbers on leak rates: Life Ending Seconds • ADVANCED DIVER MAGAZINE • By Curt Bowen (http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/articles/lifeendingseconds/lifeendingseconds.html) An HP orifice leak emptied about .9 cf/min; if the OP was an on Al80 with 500 psi, he had about 12.5 cf in his tank, and therefore had at least 13 or more minutes before the tank would have been empty from the leak.

And as bad as I think dive instruction can be, I simply cannot imagine an instructor being callous enough to ignore a student who a) panicked; b) did an uncontrolled ascent, and c) ended up on the surface coughing up pink foam. This sounds like a case of immersion pulmonary edema, causing dyspnea at depth, but it could conceivably be pulmonary barotrauma. I have seen instructors abort a dive and refuse to allow a student back in the water for a nosebleed. I have a difficult time imagining an instructor allowing a student who had to be placed on oxygen to reenter the water.

Something just doesn't smell right here.

There are way to many things here raising red flags.
First off...


We went down again to about 30ft and practiced the skill where the instructor turns off your air, and you swim like crazy to the surface, and manually inflate your BC.


Anyone ever heard of this skill? I guess I have failed as an instructor because I don't make my students do a Buoyant Emergency ascent. Oh Wait, nobody makes students do this.

I have had a line blow at the SPG, it takes a long time to drain a tank. not minutes but 10's of minutes.

I almost don't know where to start with this one...

Jim Lapenta
June 11th, 2012, 04:14 PM
The buoyant emergency ascent is optional for SEI and some of our instructors use it. However the air is never turned off and you don't kick like hell for the surface. You have them flare out and make sure the student is exhaling.

Quero
June 11th, 2012, 07:04 PM
If he was doing the skills, then touring the hole - its entirely possible that the 500psi after the leak is true...



We were about 40ft down were after we demonstrated our 7 basic skills we took a tour around the hole. I was cruising around enjoying myself when i decided to check my depth and see how much air i had used. When i grab my guage to look at it all of a sudden air starts spewing where the hose attaches to the SPG.

Those hoses can start to leak where the hose meets the gauge if the o-ring is worn, but no, it's not a fast enough leak to empty a tank. However, an anxious diver thinking that a little leak like that is putting his life at risk can easily breathe down a tank in no time.

The tightness described around the chest and the inability to breathe, even while snorkeling, sounds like a panic attack. I can imagine a student diver breathing O2 during the surface interval if he's been hyperventilating from a panic attack. And I can imagine an especially anxious and prone-to-panic diver thinking the presence of sinus blood in the nasal mucus and in the saliva was more pronounced than it actually was, leading the student diver to overstate the case somewhat.

It's so very, very difficult to believe that an instructor would callously put a diver with a possible lung overexpansion injury back in the water rather than calling an ambulance that I tend to think the OP really didn't understand what happened and because of the degree of anxiety he suffers, remembers the events in a much more dramatic fashion than they actually were when they took place. I guess "fishy" works as a description in the sense of "fish story (http://www.yourdictionary.com/fish-story)."

JamesK
June 11th, 2012, 07:50 PM
Quero, you're a smart lady. I understand and agree with almost all of your post. Also if you read the OP's other post here on SB, you will see they had a slight panic attack during their Discover Scuba course as well. Eve if your statement is 100% accurate, why would an instructor certify someone who panicked so easily? This person should be put back in the pool for more work before they can be certified IMO.

awap
June 11th, 2012, 07:59 PM
[/I][/COLOR]
It's so very, very difficult to believe that an instructor would callously put a diver with a possible lung overexpansion injury back in the water rather than calling an ambulance that I tend to think the OP really didn't understand what happened and because of the degree of anxiety he suffers, remembers the events in a much more dramatic fashion than they actually were when they took place. I guess "fishy" works as a description in the sense of "fish story (http://www.yourdictionary.com/fish-story)."

Yet I find it even harder to believe that a OW student would be making up stories of coughing up pink stuff. And I only see those two possibilities right now.

tracydr
June 11th, 2012, 08:33 PM
[/I][/COLOR]
[/LEFT]
Those hoses can start to leak where the hose meets the gauge if the o-ring is worn, but no, it's not a fast enough leak to empty a tank. However, an anxious diver thinking that a little leak like that is putting his life at risk can easily breathe down a tank in no time.

The tightness described around the chest and the inability to breathe, even while snorkeling, sounds like a panic attack. I can imagine a student diver breathing O2 during the surface interval if he's been hyperventilating from a panic attack. And I can imagine an especially anxious and prone-to-panic diver thinking the presence of sinus blood in the nasal mucus and in the saliva was more pronounced than it actually was, leading the student diver to overstate the case somewhat.

It's so very, very difficult to believe that an instructor would callously put a diver with a possible lung overexpansion injury back in the water rather than calling an ambulance that I tend to think the OP really didn't understand what happened and because of the degree of anxiety he suffers, remembers the events in a much more dramatic fashion than they actually were when they took place. I guess "fishy" works as a description in the sense of "fish story (http://www.yourdictionary.com/fish-story)."
While I agree with you, I do see professionals in sports fields, especially things like SCUBA, where it requires some "medical " knowledge, playing doctor out in the field. Even as a doctor, I would be seriously hesitant to put the OP back in the water. Even with a basically normal exam, including listening to his lungs with a stethoscope.
soemtimes, things like small Pulmonary Embolisms can be very, very tricky to diagnose and of course, there's always the possibility that this was a cardiac event.
i used to see coaches put athletes back in the game with head injuries and other bad things. Not smart.

undrwater
June 11th, 2012, 08:49 PM
I once dived with a woman who had a condition similar to this (didn't happen while I was diving with her thankfully). She said she would cough up foamy pink sputum at the end of a dive in which she overexerted herself. She said her physician's advice was to quit, while a consult with DAN led her to believe it could be managed by diving in relaxing conditions. She has reportedly done some dives without the condition repeating itself, though on the dive with me, she said she didn't feel "right."

Scott
June 11th, 2012, 08:59 PM
It's probably going to be a while before the OP gets back to us if he heeded our advice. He'll probably be in the hospital for a little while if what really happened is as serious as it sounded in the post. I'd love to hear more of this story. If what really happened is as serious as how we're all reading this, action must be taken.
Unless he was checking from his hospital bed. Last Activity Today 07:20 AM

boulderjohn
June 11th, 2012, 09:38 PM
I am sorry to say that I recently spent 5 days in the hospital. During that time, I was able to check in from time using a tablet PC, but posting was well beyond my capability at the time.

fnfalman
June 11th, 2012, 09:49 PM
I don't know which shop the OP went with (if at all because yes, the story is too adventurous to believe), but if it were the SSI shop in Albuquerque, then it would be SCUBA Center of New Mexico. I've gone out with a couple of the instructors there before and they were all highly competent.

I suppose anything can happen but turning off the air and make an OW student do emergency surface procedure? Come on!!!

I did that in my Advanced Rescue Diver class. Not OW.

Heath Sapp
June 11th, 2012, 09:53 PM
Be watching this thread, if this is true holy s$$t!

gcarter
June 11th, 2012, 09:54 PM
I am sorry to say that I recently spent 5 days in the hospital. During that time, I was able to check in from time using a tablet PC, but posting was well beyond my capability at the time.

You are confusing me. Is this posted on behalf of the OP? Was s/he in contact with you?

boulderjohn
June 11th, 2012, 09:56 PM
You are confusing me. Is this posted on behalf of the OP? Was s/he in contact with you?

I was responding without a lot of thought to Scott's post before me, indicating that a person could read the thread without being able to respond. In hindsight, it was confusing at best.

TwoBitTxn
June 11th, 2012, 09:59 PM
I am sorry to say that I recently spent 5 days in the hospital. During that time, I was able to check in from time using a tablet PC, but posting was well beyond my capability at the time.

Glad to see you are out and about. Hope you have healed fully or are well on the way to being so.

mr_adrian70
June 11th, 2012, 11:23 PM
Ok I really feel the need to defend myself, and adress all of your questions, and accusations. So bear with me, and i will do my best to adress everyone in turn. There is alot of questions so i may not get to them all right away cause i dont want to spend all night typing on the computer, but i will adress them all as openly and honestly as i can. Let me start by saying i really resent being called a liar! Im not some attention whore thats desperate for attention! Im not going to just make stuff up for the sake of getting reactions! I joined this forum to learn all that i can about a new sport that im pursuing. I posted a story about a very dramatic weekend i had trying to get my certification. When something traumatic happens to me it always help me to write about it, so decided to write about it and post it here. I thought i might learn something about mistakes i made and how to avoid them in the future. Now i will use quotes, and try and adress all the questions that arose from my story. be patient with me. I will hopefully answer everyones questions in a day or two.

---------- Post added ----------


As said, seek medical help. It sounds like your over-exerted yourself chasing the egg, causing you to start over-breathing your regulator. Your description of a boa constrictor is exactly what it feels like. This is a very good lesson in why we need to take it easy diving and avoid exertion. It can induce panic, as you found out, and it can actually cause you to pass out underwater in extreme cases -- not good.


Once you've talked to DAN and/or seen a doctor, please come back and tell us what they said.

Congratulations on the cert!
To all the posters that reccomended i see a doctor i took your advice, and that of my own doctor after talking to him about what happened, and went to the ER today. The Xrays showed that my lungs looked ok. The blood that i saw mixed with my phlem was probably the result of some small cappilarys that busted in my lungs when i started hypervenilating and panicing, and possibly the result of over expanision. I was told my lungs will probably be sore for awhile but i should be ok

Mitchell Teeters
June 11th, 2012, 11:30 PM
Wow

Sent from my DROID X2

katepnatl
June 11th, 2012, 11:30 PM
Ok I really feel the need to defend myself, and adress all of your questions, and accusations. So bear with me, and i will do my best to adress everyone in turn. There is alot of questions so i may not get to them all right away cause i dont want to spend all night typing on the computer, but i will adress them all as openly and honestly as i can. Let me start by saying i really resent being called a liar! Im not some attention whore thats desperate for attention! Im not going to just make stuff up for the sake of getting reactions! I joined this forum to learn all that i can about a new sport that im pursuing. I posted a story about a very dramatic weekend i had trying to get my certification. When something traumatic happens to me it always help me to write about it, so decided to write about it and post it here. I thought i might learn something about mistakes i made and how to avoid them in the future. Now i will use quotes, and try and adress all the questions that arose from my story. be patient with me. I will hopefully answer everyones questions in a day or two.

---------- Post added ----------


To all the posters that reccomended i see a doctor i took your advice, and that of my own doctor after talking to him about what happened, and went to the ER today. The Xrays showed that my lungs looked ok. The blood that i saw mixed with my phlem was probably the result of some small cappilarys that busted in my lungs when i started hypervenilating and panicing, and possibly the result of over expanision. I was told my lungs will probably be sore for awhile but i should be ok

How to say this... the reason some of us found your story so hard to believe is not bc we were doubting *you,* but more than anything else, bc it is very hard to believe that an instructor would put someone who had your experience back in the water. If they were aware of what happened to you, that is a serious breach of ethical and professional responsibility, truly beyond our ability to comprehend. Combined with some of the other characteristics of your story... it was just hard to take.

I am glad to hear that you appear to be ok. And I am glad that you came back to this thread to talk about what happened.

dmoore19
June 11th, 2012, 11:47 PM
I grab my instructors attention, and show him what was happening. He tried to fix it underwater but was unable to. I was quickly losing all my air! My SPG showed i had about 500 psi left. Instructor signaled everyone to start going up. I ended up having to air share with my instructor, and we went up to the surface after making a safety stop. When we got back up my air tank was completely dry.


OP,

You said the instructor tried to fix the problem but was not able to. Did he turn your air off to stop the bubbles from the leak?

This would explain how your tank appeared to be empty at the surface. If he turned your air off and the leak allowed the pressure to bleed off of the hose with your gauge to read 0 psi.

TSandM
June 11th, 2012, 11:47 PM
If indeed the story is true, I am very sorry to have doubted you. If things truly went down as described, this is one of the most egregious departures from standard dive class procedure that I have ever seen recounted. It is SO far from the usual that it was difficult to believe, and since there were also what appeared to be some factual issues, I started to think this might be someone concocting a tale to get reactions.

doctormike
June 11th, 2012, 11:50 PM
Let me start by saying i really resent being called a liar!

I can certainly understand that. And I for one am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But you certainly should be able to understand that we have no idea who you are in this community - from our end, you are just a new account with three posts. So we have to guess which of the two conclusions are more likely:

1) That a scuba instructor took a panicked OW student who had just made an uncontrolled ascent, with physical evidence of DCI, pulmonary edema or some other type of barotrauma, and who required O2 therapy, and not only put him back in the water but certified him that day despite ongoing panic.

2) That the story was fictitious and was posted for the entertainment value of the ensuing thread.

If you have spent any time on Internet forums, you know that the second possibility is pretty common, so I don't think that you need to take such umbrage. Calling someone a liar to their face is a provocative and aggressive action, since you know the other person and are passing judgement on their honesty. We are simply questioning a story presented with no context and a number of inconsistencies.

I apologize in advance if I have doubted you inappropriately, and I'm glad that you are feeling better...!

mr_adrian70
June 11th, 2012, 11:52 PM
The post starting this thread has me as mystified as pretty much everyone else on this thread. There is indeed anAlbuquerque SSI dive shop[/URL] that has a class schedule that coincides precisely with both the OP's introductory post for his confined water training and the open water dives at the Blue Hole. That part makes perfect sense.

As others have pointed out, there is a lot to be confused about after that. I hope mr_adran70 will take a few minutes to answer a couple of questions very clearly.

1. Can you repeat in as much detail as possible the situation with the air leaking from your spg? As some people have pointed out, because the opening in a high pressure hose is so very tiny, even if you were to cut the hose in half with a bolt cutter it will not lose air as quickly as you seem to be saying.

2. You spoke about "the skill where the instructor turns off your air, and you swim like crazy to the surface." Could you please describe this in much greater detail as well? Are you certain the instructor shuts off your air? Do you keep the regulator in your mouth as you ascend? When you say "swim like crazy," what does that mean--do you swim as fast as you possibly can?

1. Ok even when in the pool i was an air hog. We were in the water demostrating the 7 basic skills before we even went on the tour of the hole so by that time i probably had about 1000psi left in my tank. When i grabed my guage to check my depth, and air thats when the line was practically severed at the point where the hose connects to the SPG. It was no slow gentle leak. It was seriously spewing a great deal of air. It very quckly went into the red zone as i was sharing air with my instructor. So after we accended,made a 3 minute safety stop at 15ft got to the surface, and swam to the side where you can stand up, the guage was in fact reading zero psi left. i hope that adequetly adress that issue?

2. Several posters i saw questioned this i saw. I apologize for not using enough details in my description of this skill. I guess i should have been more descriptive in my narrative. Yes the intructor shuts off your air as you are holding the SPG. As you see your air approaching 500 psi you signal that you are out of air, take one last deep breath, keep the regulator in your mouth while slowly exhaling, and swim to the surface. You are then supposed to flair your body as you surface, and manually inflate your BC. I said swim like crazy cause you are out of air and you dont want to lolly gag. The intructor also rises with you and is ready to turn back on your air at anytime if you run into trouble. In the pool we practiced a similar skill where you slap your hands against your thighs run them up to your weights, release, and drop them then accend. In the hole we did this as well but stoped short of releasing, and droping the weights. Adequte answer to your question?

ianr33
June 11th, 2012, 11:58 PM
. It was seriously spewing a great deal of air. It very quckly went into the red zone as i was sharing air with my instructor. So after we accended,made a 3 minute safety stop at 15ft got to the surface

You do realize safety stops are optional right? No one in their right mind (even an instructor!) would do one if going OOA was a possibility.

I still think you're trolling,but then I'm a cynic

Name the shop and Instructor and maybe I'll believe you.

DukeAMO
June 12th, 2012, 12:00 AM
I am glad to hear that you appear to be ok. And I am glad that you came back to this thread to talk about what happened.

Seconded. I'm glad you got checked out, and glad you're feeling better.

Any guess what your fastest ascent rate was? (Or did you have a computer on that would tell you?)

Did they tell you how long to rest before trying to dive again?

Do you know why the instructor decided to let you finish your skills that day, instead of scheduling a make-up dive? Did you insist on finishing?

mr_adrian70
June 12th, 2012, 12:16 AM
From reading this thread, I've come up with the following.

1. You should not, with ANY ANY ANY agency with any instructor worth his salt have been given a certification so easily, especially after your episode. If I was the instructor I would have either not certified you (and then fired myself for being a dumbass) or given you an extended private lesson.



2. That instructor is STUPID, he did everything some what right until the O2 was given, and he deserves to be immediately fired and revoked of his membership to instruct

3. Call DAN on your way to the hospital


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Maybe some mistakes were made by the instuctor by letting me continue but i appreciate how he went out of his way to help me complete it. He knew i was pursuing a life long time dream of mine, and just how important this was to me. That i had a diving trip to Little Corn Island all planned out for October, and how bummed out i would be if i couldnt dive. I think he was trying to be nice by letting me try to complete the rest of the skills i had left. he didnt want to deny me my dream! He really did everything he could to make the remaining skills as easy for me to perform as possible. He removed my weights, and loosened up by bc after he calmed me down, and i stopped hypervenilating for the second time. He even snorkeled the rest of the way around the hole with me. He made the buddy tows as easy as possible as well by gently kicking for 2 of the tows as i went, and only making me tow him a short distance. He also helped me complete the equipment removal at the surface skill by keeping me calm and breathing normaly. I really wanted to join the rest of the class in their graduation dive down to the bottom but he refused to let me go with them. I think he was an awesome intructor that i learned a great deal from. I also think he is an awesome man, who went out of his way to get me to do what needed to be done so i could realize my dream. I in no way wanted my narrative of my weekend to cast him in a negative light!

doctormike
June 12th, 2012, 12:27 AM
Maybe some mistakes were made by the instuctor by letting me continue but i appreciate how he went out of his way to help me complete it. He knew i was pursuing a life long time dream of mine, and just how important this was to me. That i had a diving trip to Little Corn Island all planned out for October, and how bummed out i would be if i couldnt dive. I think he was trying to be nice by letting me try to complete the rest of the skills i had left. he didnt want to deny me my dream! He really did everything he could to make the remaining skills as easy for me to perform as possible. He removed my weights, and loosened up by bc after he calmed me down, and i stopped hypervenilating for the second time. He even snorkeled the rest of the way around the hole with me. He made the buddy tows as easy as possible as well by gently kicking for 2 of the tows as i went, and only making me tow him a short distance. He also helped me complete the equipment removal at the surface skill by keeping me calm and breathing normaly. I really wanted to join the rest of the class in their graduation dive down to the bottom but he refused to let me go with them. I think he was an awesome intructor that i learned a great deal from. I also think he is an awesome man, who went out of his way to get me to do what needed to be done so i could realize my dream. I in no way wanted my narrative of my weekend to cast him in a negative light!

What, you mean if you had to schedule another open water session and work on some skills, that would have denied you your dream of diving?

Do you mean he was a great instructor because he made it easier for you to complete skills that you couldn't otherwise do, by lowering his standards?

Do you mean that you feel well prepared to dive in the open ocean off of a remote island, on your own, now that he signed your card, despite the fact that he didn't think that you were even capable of going on the "graduation dive" with the rest of the class?

Sorry, but this last post doesn't do a lot to support your story....

Islandheart
June 12th, 2012, 12:29 AM
All I can say is "oh Lordy Lordy", some of you will understand and some will not !

mr_adrian70
June 12th, 2012, 12:53 AM
I grab my instructors attention, and show him what was happening. He tried to fix it underwater but was unable to. I was quickly losing all my air! My SPG showed i had about 500 psi left. Instructor signaled everyone to start going up. I ended up having to air share with my instructor, and we went up to the surface after making a safety stop. When we got back up my air tank was completely dry.


OP,

You said the instructor tried to fix the problem but was not able to. Did he turn your air off to stop the bubbles from the leak?

This would explain how your tank appeared to be empty at the surface. If he turned your air off and the leak allowed the pressure to bleed off of the hose with your gauge to read 0 psi.

No the air was not turned off cause i remember still seeing a bunch of bubbles coming out of it during the 3 minute safety stop. There really wasnt alot of air left in the tank after performing the 7 skills and starting the tour so once the leak started it really didnt have alot left to lose. Once we got back to our table i looked at what was left, and was in fact reading 0psi left.

---------- Post added ----------


You do realize safety stops are optional right? No one in their right mind (even an instructor!) would do one if going OOA was a possibility.

I still think you're trolling,but then I'm a cynic

Name the shop and Instructor and maybe I'll believe you.

I was sharing air. There really was no crisis. I was breathing comfortably on his regulator, and my instructor had plenty of air so why not make a safety stop? Even in practice we all had a tendency when air sharing to rush to the surface, but were always told to slow down. You both are breathing fine sharing air.Theres no need to rush to surface. Im not going to name shops or instructors, just so you will believe me. If you want to call me a troll then so be it. you have a right to your opinion. I havent lied or embellished my story. Though maybe im guilty of being dramatic in my story telling. Im not some lonely person that really needs a connection to other people so i make crap up to get reactions. You can think what you want. I wrote my story to help me in some way process what happened, and i just decided to share it with people on this board, since it does involve scuba diving.

Chutton47
June 12th, 2012, 01:05 AM
As a medical professional this does not make to much sense. Bleeding in the lungs is caused by just a few things..infection, cancer, TB, etc. PE is not very likely based on the symptoms and the resolution of them so quickly. If exertion caused it than it should happen any time you ran or such. It sounds like you had a panic attack hyperventilated causing a shift in pH that lead to bronchospasms. The coughing caused a little irritation in the lungs with a little bleeding.

requin02
June 12th, 2012, 01:17 AM
Maybe some mistakes were made by the instuctor by letting me continue !

This is not some mistake, it is THE mistake and i still can not believe it. With a dive trip planed in October what is that nonsense about denying your dream? We are in june ffs. As for certification goes, remember the training is designed to help you be safe (and ur buddy) so accomodative, easier training skills is not the way to go just the get the cert asap.
i wanted to date Nathalie Portman but she denied my dream by getting married.

requin

mr_adrian70
June 12th, 2012, 01:41 AM
Seconded. I'm glad you got checked out, and glad you're feeling better.

Any guess what your fastest ascent rate was? (Or did you have a computer on that would tell you?)

Did they tell you how long to rest before trying to dive again?

Do you know why the instructor decided to let you finish your skills that day, instead of scheduling a make-up dive? Did you insist on finishing?

He let me due to my insisting that i was feeling better, and there was no more actual dives needed to get certified. It was all surface work. I thought i could do it! I tried to be the big tuff guy. I was feeling better until i started snorkeling and got about 10 ft out. Then i realized i made a mistake. I thought i was better and over it. But mentally and physically i was still damaged from what happened. Having my face in the water, and being able to see into the depth were my traumatic experience happened triggered something in my sub conscience that i couldnt control. Physically i thought i was feeling better when i was at rest sucking on O2 but as soon as i started exerting myself again my lungs felt raw, and unable to function properly. So i started hypervenilating again. When i couldnt breathe the panic came back even worse the second time. One of the hardest things ive ever had to do physically, and mentally was finishing those skills at the surface after what happened to me below.

---------- Post added ----------


This is not some mistake, it is THE mistake and i still can not believe it. With a dive trip planed in October what is that nonsense about denying your dream? We are in june ffs. As for certification goes, remember the training is designed to help you be safe (and ur buddy) so accomodative, easier training skills is not the way to go just the get the cert asap.
i wanted to date Nathalie Portman but she denied my dream by getting married.

requin


He did tell me that he was going to go ahead and certify me but i really did need to come back, and dive the hole again several more times and pratice my skills, and gain more confidence before going on my trip to Nicaragua in October, and diving in the ocean. They have dive outings to the hole every month that i do plan on going to atleast a couple of times before i leave despite the expense of renting equipment, and hotel rooms. I really want to go back to the hole and have fun instead of truama! I said maybe he didnt want to deny me my dream of diving just to defend him cause i think hes a great guy, and im grateful to him. I can try and defend the intructors choice to let me continue, but honestly i dont know why he made the choice he did.

supergaijin
June 12th, 2012, 01:42 AM
Mr OP, before you go anywhere, do yourself a favour and go diving again- even if it's in a pool. From your description it sounds like your training was inadequate and potentially dangerous. For example you've stated that your air was turned off underwater, before attempting the Controlled Emergency Swimming Ascent known as CESA. This is a violation of safety- but one that can be confusing as there are 2 other separate skills: "responding to 'Out Of Air' where the instructor turns off your air, and you signal OOA. And the other where you signal OOA and breathe off the Alternate Air Source.

For your own safety in "pursuing your life-long dream", do a few more dives shallower than 45 feet in some easy conditions before travelling overseas to dive.

EDIT: glad to hear you will return to dive.

Tim R Alcoser JR
June 12th, 2012, 02:05 AM
Oh my god. I love my instructor.

See, we did the out of air scenario in the pool, but it was only for a brief few seconds, and only to show you what it felt like to be in an out of air scenario, or so we were told.

ferris213
June 12th, 2012, 02:25 AM
I'm glad it all worked out ok for you, and that you were checked by a medical professional. I totally agree with the other posters recommending you do some more diving before your big trip. I would suggest hiring an instructor to help you work through your skills again, even if it does cost a bit more.

As tempting as it might be to use the same instructor as you did for your course, if I were you I would hire someone else. Even if it is for a different perspective on the same skills.

It sounds like it was a fairly traumatic day, and you have mentioned a few times you nearly panicked. This is something I would mention to a new instructor, and hopefully they can find ways for you to overcome it.

Good luck.

GrimSleeper
June 12th, 2012, 03:13 AM
I'm glad it all worked out ok for you, and that you were checked by a medical professional. I totally agree with the other posters recommending you do some more diving before your big trip. I would suggest hiring an instructor to help you work through your skills again, even if it does cost a bit more.

As tempting as it might be to use the same instructor as you did for your course, if I were you I would hire someone else. Even if it is for a different perspective on the same skills.

It sounds like it was a fairly traumatic day, and you have mentioned a few times you nearly panicked. This is something I would mention to a new instructor, and hopefully they can find ways for you to overcome it.

Good luck.

Have to second what ferris213 says. If your memory of the sequence of events is completely accurate - and panic, even mild fear, can often colour how we remember things, let alone being in an alien environment for the first time, so OP, please don't think I'm calling you a liar - your instructor did a lot of things wrong. Please do think about working with someone else, who doesn't know you 'have a dream', and can give you an honest assessment of whether you are ready to dive independently. You owe that much to yourself and to anyone else in your life.

KD8NPB
June 12th, 2012, 03:27 AM
I will contribute exactly one tip to this thread:
Please buy DAN insurance, formulate an emergency plan, and always dive with a buddy.

Sly New Girl
June 12th, 2012, 04:02 AM
Everyone who mentioned how glad they are that Mr Adran is going to be okay deserves a thumbs up! I've only just gotten started and already I've heard and seen things that give me pause. I personally saw a man rescued twice in one night. The first time he was hauled up and drug into the shallows he said it felt like everything was spinning in circles and he thought he was sinking really fast. Only according to his buddy they weren't even 40' down and the bottom was 5' away. The second time was after he said he was okay so my buddy told him to take care of himself and we went back to doing our own thing. Not ten minutes later we were following them up again. The other guys buddy had convinced him to give it another try. My dm had a lot to say. He was really nice and he talks quiet, he doesn't yell. But you can tell when he's as serious as a coffin nail.
My advice to you Mr Adran, as someone who depends on the goodwill and experience of others as I do, is this; Never dive with a buddy you can't trust. Not even one you can't trust to tell you the absolute truth. I wouldn't be half so willing to depend on my buddy if I didn't trust him to prevent me from making rash decisions. Not just to haul me out afterwards but to actually give me a constant measure of his attention with keeping me safe always on his mind. Find someone to dive with who not only loves the water and diving but cares what happens to you too.

clownfishsydney
June 12th, 2012, 04:41 AM
I must say that I believe the OP's story. However, what I cannot believe is that an instructor let all this happen.

The air leak was probably from the swivel between the HP hose and the pressure gauge. As others have said, even a full blown leak takes a long time to empty a tank. I suspect that you have breathed so hard once this happened you have used most of the little air you had in your tank before the instructor took you to the surface.

As to the turning off air situation, I have never heard of this occurring legitimately in any dive course, especially on an OW course. This is madness. I can perhaps understand a quick on/off so that you can see what it feels like as the air runs out, but to have it off and then do an ascent, totally unbelievable that someone would do this (and I believe you when you say it happened).

As to the lung problem, I suspect it was one of two things. The first, you breathed so hard you sucked in some water and this has got into your lungs and you have suffered basically the same as diver's immersion pulmonary oedema. This would certainly make you feel as though you could not breathe and would cause such irritation to your lungs that you will spit up pink frothy sputum. I have seen this happen twice to others. Basically it is an almost drowning situation.

Finally, to let you get back in the water after this, even if just snorkelling, is just short of criminally negligent (or maybe not). Find another dive instructor I think and another shop.

jar546
June 12th, 2012, 06:35 AM
Once the HP hose that leads to the SPG is busted, there is absolutely no accurate reading of the PSI in the tank and it will read low so there is no way of knowing how much air was actually left in the tank. Just a clarification as it is not relevant to the story and situation.

The OP should not be certified as a diver and would need medical clearance in order to continue through the certification process for OW. In all actuality, the OWI did you a major disservice.

doctormike
June 12th, 2012, 07:11 AM
As a medical professional this does not make to much sense. Bleeding in the lungs is caused by just a few things..infection, cancer, TB, etc. PE is not very likely based on the symptoms and the resolution of them so quickly. If exertion caused it than it should happen any time you ran or such. It sounds like you had a panic attack hyperventilated causing a shift in pH that lead to bronchospasms. The coughing caused a little irritation in the lungs with a little bleeding.

As a medical professional and a diver, I would say that cancer and TB would be pretty far down in the differential diagnosis of acute, frothy hemoptysis following a rapid ascent from depth. Certainly below things like immersion pulmonary edema and the various subcategories of DCI (such as an expansion injury). Probably even below something like a sinus squeeze causing a nosebleed. PE actually could be a possibility, since in this scenario we would be talking about an air bubble in the pulmonary arterial circulation causing a blockage of blood flow to an area of lung tissue - that is, a PE that is non-thrombotic (not the classic blood clot) and non-iatrogenic (not caused by a medical procedure). O2 therapy for this condition could cause a reduction in symptoms. But our clinical details here are sketchy.

Also, as a medical professional, I wouldn't reassure anyone over the Internet that acute hemoptysis following a rapid ascent from depth was just "a little irritation", without even a "probably" thrown in there..!

:)

CamG
June 12th, 2012, 08:17 AM
Greetings Mr Adrian I am very glad you are ok.
Never be afraid to seek professional medical attention for a scuba related incident.
Join DAN if you have not as they are the best in the business at scuba related issues and your insurance is so well worth it!

Do not mistake all the attention on the thread as negative as most here are concerned for your welfare but can come across a bit condescending. They really mean well and not sticking to training standards is a HUGE mistake in the SCUBA industry.
If your feeling were hurt I am sorry, I can only speak for myself but I only wish you good things and safe diving in the future.

Please gain your experience slowly and safely while enjoying diving.
It is a awesome sport but not without risk so be prepared, EYE'S OPEN.
It does not take many accident threads to get a clear idea of just how dangerous it can be.

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

Chutton47
June 12th, 2012, 08:36 AM
Doctormike I agree with you, my background is in emergency medicine, with little experience in baromedicine. I am also a new diver so the I dont have the experience as many others do. After sitting and reviewing the details again I would have to put immersion pulmonary edema at the top of the list. Sorry Mike for the quick two bit answer.... :bash:

JamesK
June 12th, 2012, 09:03 AM
OP,

I am glad you are OK. That is a biggy right there.

It seems like you have a history of "panic" in the water. Even in your Discover Scuba class you stated you had a feeling of panic. Did you discuss this with your instructor? For an instructor to take a student back in to the water who was panicking as horribly as your were, is not very responsible. It is down right dangerous IMO. I understand you have a dream of SCUBA diving. All of us here share that passion, and do not want to see anyone needlessly hurt pursuing that dream. You could have been seriously hurt. I can understand taking you in the water to snorkel. However, once you showed those symptoms again, you should have been pulled from the water immediately. No arguing. You need to get back in the pool and work in the pool for hours on end until you are 100% comfortable in the water. Then you need to be in shallow, less than 20ft, water gradually working your way in to things to expand your comfort zone. I have no doubt that you can do this and make your October trip, but to think that you are going to be OW ready now, or even after one more session is ludicrous in my mind.

I wish you safe diving, and a lifetime of happiness pursuing your dream.

TwoBitTxn
June 12th, 2012, 09:17 AM
I have one question for the OP.

Is the instructor medically qualified to make a field diagnosis of the "blood in the foamy sputum"? He made a medical decision to put you on oxygen. He obviously thought you needed it.

A minor curiosity point, but I think I know the answer. Was an incident report filed with his certification agency?

I am happy to see you are ok. I hope you will apply what you have learned from this incident and here. We all wish for you to not become a story with a different ending in the A&I section of this board.

nimoh
June 12th, 2012, 09:25 AM
Greetings Mr Adrian I am very glad you are ok.
Never be afraid to seek professional medical attention for a scuba related incident.
Join DAN if you have not as they are the best in the business at scuba related issues and your insurance is so well worth it!

Do not mistake all the attention on the thread as negative as most here are concerned for your welfare but can come across a bit condescending. They really mean well and sticking to training standards is a HUGE mistake in the SCUBA industry.
If your feeling were hurt I am sorry, I can only speak for myself but I only wish you good things and safe diving in the future.

Please gain your experience slowly and safely while enjoying diving.
It is a awesome sport but not without risk so be prepared, EYE'S OPEN.
It does not take many accident threads to get a clear idea of just how dangerous it can be.

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

not really sure what you mean by "sticking to training standards is a HUGE mistake in the SCUBA industry". Can you elaborate?

JamesK
June 12th, 2012, 09:35 AM
not really sure what you mean by "sticking to training standards is a HUGE mistake in the SCUBA industry". Can you elaborate?

Purely speculation here, but taken in context of his post I think he means "sticking to training standards is a huge problem in the SCUBA industry". Basically instructors not sticking to the standards is an issue. Of course, I could be 100% wrong.

nimoh
June 12th, 2012, 09:43 AM
Purely speculation here, but taken in context of his post I think he means "sticking to training standards is a huge problem in the SCUBA industry". Basically instructors not sticking to the standards is an issue. Of course, I could be 100% wrong.

thanks, when I first read it I was a little confused, my interpretation was that CamG was saying that instructors shouldn't be following training standards, which made no sense in context :)

Looking back at the post, I don't think there is anything wrong with the wording, just my interpretation.

doctormike
June 12th, 2012, 09:56 AM
Doctormike I agree with you, my background is in emergency medicine, with little experience in baromedicine. I am also a new diver so the I dont have the experience as many others do. After sitting and reviewing the details again I would have to put immersion pulmonary edema at the top of the list. Sorry Mike for the quick two bit answer.... :bash:


Hahah... no worries, and I apologize for the snarky tone! :)

I have spent many years commenting online about medical things, both on this board and here (http://www.kidsent.com), and I guess that has just left me very averse to making any sort of reassurance without examining a patient in person. But I certainly understand the instinct to try to share one's expertise.

boulderjohn
June 12th, 2012, 10:42 AM
You do realize safety stops are optional right? No one in their right mind (even an instructor!) would do one if going OOA was a possibility.

...

Name the shop and Instructor and maybe I'll believe you.



I was sharing air. There really was no crisis. I was breathing comfortably on his regulator, and my instructor had plenty of air so why not make a safety stop? I agree. There is no reason to skip a safety stop in that situation. In more advanced dive training, we teach divers to plan on maintaining enough reserve air to be able to perform all stops in an OOA situation. Doing a safety stop when the team has enough air to do so is the correct thing to do, not a sign of being out of your mind.



A minor curiosity point, but I think I know the answer. Was an incident report filed with his certification agency?
This is an excellent question. Such a report absolutely should have been filled out, and I suggest the OP call the shop to find out if it was.

DukeAMO
June 12th, 2012, 11:48 AM
Incidentally, if your shop works like ours, we were actually covered by DAN insurance while we were students. The $25 membership was included in the course fee. You would know if this was the case because you would have filled out a short registration form. DH and I went ahead and got the full membership and insurance once we were certified, because it expires after the class ends.

I would still recommend a call to DAN, whether you were a member or not. It may not be safe to dive again before seeing a doctor with expertise in diving injuries and getting further tests.
Two useful articles:
Divers Alert Network (http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/articles/article.asp?articleid=82)
Divers Alert Network (http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/articles/article.asp?articleid=40)
"If, after dive-related pulmonary barotrauma, there is a satisfactory operational cause an accidental rapid ascent, for example AND if specific testing, which may include CT scanning, reveals no evidence of underlying lung disease, then the diver can consider a return to diving. The final decision should be made in consultation with a physician."

ianr33
June 12th, 2012, 12:40 PM
I agree. There is no reason to skip a safety stop in that situation. In more advanced dive training, we teach divers to plan on maintaining enough reserve air to be able to perform all stops in an OOA situation. Doing a safety stop when the team has enough air to do so is the correct thing to do, not a sign of being out of your mind.


Yeah,but,I wouldn't consider an instructor with a bunch of uncertified divers a "team" If an instructor is sharing air with an OOA student how can he help any other students that may be having problems?

What is agency protocol in a situation such as this? (For non-certified divers)

And I still think this is an elaborate troll.

jar546
June 12th, 2012, 01:13 PM
Not to divert just a little but I am familiar with an SSI dive shop that does turn off the student's air before they do an ascent then turns it back on during ascent. is this standard practice?

hypertech
June 12th, 2012, 01:22 PM
No the air was not turned off cause i remember still seeing a bunch of bubbles coming out of it during the 3 minute safety stop. There really wasnt alot of air left in the tank after performing the 7 skills and starting the tour so once the leak started it really didnt have alot left to lose. Once we got back to our table i looked at what was left, and was in fact reading 0psi left.

---------- Post added ----------


If the guage came off the tank, it would read 0 even if there was 3k in the tank.

jaycanwk
June 12th, 2012, 04:06 PM
Maybe some mistakes were made by the instuctor by letting me continue but i appreciate how he went out of his way to help me complete it. He knew i was pursuing a life long time dream of mine, and just how important this was to me. That i had a diving trip to Little Corn Island all planned out for October, and how bummed out i would be if i couldnt dive. I think he was trying to be nice by letting me try to complete the rest of the skills i had left. he didnt want to deny me my dream! He really did everything he could to make the remaining skills as easy for me to perform as possible. He removed my weights, and loosened up by bc after he calmed me down, and i stopped hypervenilating for the second time. He even snorkeled the rest of the way around the hole with me. He made the buddy tows as easy as possible as well by gently kicking for 2 of the tows as i went, and only making me tow him a short distance. He also helped me complete the equipment removal at the surface skill by keeping me calm and breathing normaly. I really wanted to join the rest of the class in their graduation dive down to the bottom but he refused to let me go with them. I think he was an awesome intructor that i learned a great deal from. I also think he is an awesome man, who went out of his way to get me to do what needed to be done so i could realize my dream. I in no way wanted my narrative of my weekend to cast him in a negative light!


Here is the thing I'm concerned about. Like most people new to diving, you don't know what you don't know, as they say. The way your Insructor handled the whole situation that day was seriously incompetent and legally negligent at worst if everything was really exactly as you described. We of course don't have his side of the story so I'm going to reserve my judgment, but you should not have been allowed back into the water after presenting symptoms of lung trauma and panic.

I most certainly hope you do realize your dream of diving, but for the love of god, you don't have to die trying. I would recomend you work with another instructor to get some more practice and to help resolve your panic issues.

darushin
June 12th, 2012, 06:09 PM
Does anybody else think this story doesn't quite ring true?

To begin with, a HP hose leak can't empty a tank the way the OP describes. HP hose leaks leak very little volume. If the OP had 500 psi when he saw the leak, and came up on someone else's gas, he wouldn't have had an empty tank at the surface. Look at Curt Bowen's numbers on leak rates: Life Ending Seconds • ADVANCED DIVER MAGAZINE • By Curt Bowen (http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/articles/lifeendingseconds/lifeendingseconds.html) An HP orifice leak emptied about .9 cf/min; if the OP was an on Al80 with 500 psi, he had about 12.5 cf in his tank, and therefore had at least 13 or more minutes before the tank would have been empty from the leak.

And as bad as I think dive instruction can be, I simply cannot imagine an instructor being callous enough to ignore a student who a) panicked; b) did an uncontrolled ascent, and c) ended up on the surface coughing up pink foam. This sounds like a case of immersion pulmonary edema, causing dyspnea at depth, but it could conceivably be pulmonary barotrauma. I have seen instructors abort a dive and refuse to allow a student back in the water for a nosebleed. I have a difficult time imagining an instructor allowing a student who had to be placed on oxygen to reenter the water.

Something just doesn't smell right here.

I can say that if the failure was the spg, then it can empty quick. I have personally witness a spg blow and drain a tank in about 30 secs. Maybe that is what the op meant.

Daru

Quero
June 12th, 2012, 06:20 PM
...why would an instructor certify someone who panicked so easily? This person should be put back in the pool for more work before they can be certified IMO.
I think he was an awesome intructor that i learned a great deal from. I also think he is an awesome man, who went out of his way to get me to do what needed to be done so i could realize my dream. I in no way wanted my narrative of my weekend to cast him in a negative light!

I said maybe he didnt want to deny me my dream of diving just to defend him cause i think hes a great guy, and im grateful to him. I can try and defend the intructors choice to let me continue, but honestly i dont know why he made the choice he did.



I wish we could get that instructor to come into this thread and tell us what happened from his perspective. Or have his "friend" report for him so that he doesn't get directly identified in any way.

doctormike
June 12th, 2012, 06:29 PM
I can say that if the failure was the spg, then it can empty quick. I have personally witness a spg blow and drain a tank in about 30 secs. Maybe that is what the op meant.

Daru

Not sure what you witnessed, but a leak from the HP port (which is what the SPG connects to) cannot drain a tank nearly as fast as a blown low pressure hose. In fact, that article cited above gives some actual numbers for the time to drain an 80 CUF cylinder with 3000 psi: 83 seconds for an LP hose failure, 72 seconds for a failed burst disk, about 4 minutes for a free flowing second stage (at the surface, quicker at depth since the second stage supplies gas at ambient pressure), and 22 minutes for a blown HP hose.

This is because the HP port has a tiny orifice, since it doesn't need to actually deliver gas flow (like the LP ports). It just transmits pressure to the SPG for a reading. It wouldn't matter if the HP leak was from a blown SPG, a burst hose, a hose cut with a pair of trauma shears, or just from removing a plug, the effect would be the same.

CamG
June 12th, 2012, 06:43 PM
Hello again nimoh I edited my post to the original "not" sticking to standards.
Sorry must have missed it this morning.
There has been some really good dialog from this thread about the medical side of this.
When I went through OW our instructor made very sure we all understood the hazards and standards of the training.

We were encouraged to question and continue to do so till we understood clearly.
In the two years I assisted with training we only had one incident.
Hopefully all OW students and or divers who read this thread will learn to be very careful.

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

nimoh
June 13th, 2012, 11:57 AM
Hello again nimoh I edited my post to the original "not" sticking to standards.
Sorry must have missed it this morning.
There has been some really good dialog from this thread about the medical side of this.
When I went through OW our instructor made very sure we all understood the hazards and standards of the training.

We were encouraged to question and continue to do so till we understood clearly.
In the two years I assisted with training we only had one incident.
Hopefully all OW students and or divers who read this thread will learn to be very careful.

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

no problem, like I said, it wasn't your wording, but my interpretation caught me by surprise :)

FlamboyantDiver
June 13th, 2012, 01:32 PM
OP glad you are okay. I bet this thread is even more traumatic for you than the OW experience, lol. From one newbie to another - hang in there but be safe!

Malpaso
June 13th, 2012, 03:11 PM
I have far more medical experience than diving experience, so I won't comment on the training or the instructor. What I will say is Get A Second Medical Opinion before you dive again, and, join DAN.

tracydr
June 13th, 2012, 06:03 PM
As a medical professional this does not make to much sense. Bleeding in the lungs is caused by just a few things..infection, cancer, TB, etc. PE is not very likely based on the symptoms and the resolution of them so quickly. If exertion caused it than it should happen any time you ran or such. It sounds like you had a panic attack hyperventilated causing a shift in pH that lead to bronchospasms. The coughing caused a little irritation in the lungs with a little bleeding.
True. But, the instructor has no business diagnosing this out at the dive site. He put him on oxygen. He should have never let him back in the water. If he was concerned enough to pull out the O2, he should have called the paramedics.
he had chest pain and difficulty breathing. With or without bleeding or pink, frothy sputum, the chest pain and difficulty breathing is a concern.
The point is, the instructor, I assume, is not a physician. Field diagnosis is not his job. He is not qualified to decide if this is a panic attack, asthma attack, heart attack, pulmonary edema, PE or a nose bleed.

usmarinekurt
June 13th, 2012, 09:47 PM
This whole thing is giving me a headache and stomachache

skearse
June 14th, 2012, 07:58 AM
Not to divert just a little but I am familiar with an SSI dive shop that does turn off the student's air before they do an ascent then turns it back on during ascent. is this standard practice?

Quick OT reply-my wife's cert & my refresher were from SSI, and yes, they did that...in the pool, at least. At the bottom, the OWI gets behind you. Right hand on tank valve, both diver & instructor holding gauges in left had so they both can see. OWI turns off the air, both watch the gauge go to zero, and as soon as the diver has that 'last breath' sensation they signal the OWI by shaking/slapping gauge. OWI then re-opens tank valve while accompanying diver to the surface in a CESA. She did a universal referral (NAUI instructor) for her OW certs and they did NOT do this skill in OW. I can't say yes or no as to whether or not SSI LDSs do this (or is required) as part of the OW certs.

Wookie
June 14th, 2012, 08:11 AM
Quick OT reply-my wife's cert & my refresher were from SSI, and yes, they did that...in the pool, at least. At the bottom, the OWI gets behind you. Right hand on tank valve, both diver & instructor holding gauges in left had so they both can see. OWI turns off the air, both watch the gauge go to zero, and as soon as the diver has that 'last breath' sensation they signal the OWI by shaking/slapping gauge. OWI then re-opens tank valve while accompanying diver to the surface in a CESA. She did a universal referral (NAUI instructor) for her OW certs and they did NOT do this skill in OW. I can't say yes or no as to whether or not SSI LDSs do this (or is required) as part of the OW certs.

In a PADI course, that would be considered 2 separate skills, and would never be combined. For the out of air skill, the instructor is behind the student turning off their air, and preventing a panic bolt to the surface. During the CESA, the instructor is in front of the student, with a hand on the faceplate of the students reg and a hand on the students BC to ensure that if the student bolts, the instructor can slow them down. Combining these skills into one is IMHO foolish and likely to lead to an embolism or worse. Oh, snap.

jar546
June 14th, 2012, 08:28 AM
I now have an SSI manual as I am doing an instructor crossover course. The standards clearly state not to turn off the air during the emergency swimming ascent skill on OW dive 4. It also does not want the student to dump the weights which is another thing I have witnessed

skearse
June 14th, 2012, 08:46 AM
In a PADI course, that would be considered 2 separate skills, and would never be combined. For the out of air skill, the instructor is behind the student turning off their air, and preventing a panic bolt to the surface. During the CESA, the instructor is in front of the student, with a hand on the faceplate of the students reg and a hand on the students BC to ensure that if the student bolts, the instructor can slow them down. Combining these skills into one is IMHO foolish and likely to lead to an embolism or worse. Oh, snap.

Sorry, not enough coffee yet this AM...wasn't coupled with CESA; it was buoyant ascent w/ dropped weights. Point of combining skills taken. FWIW, it was done after 'practicing' the buoyant ascent with air.


I now have an SSI manual as I am doing an instructor crossover course. The standards clearly state not to turn off the air during the emergency swimming ascent skill on OW dive 4. It also does not want the student to dump the weights which is another thing I have witnessed

Yeah, again, this was in the pool only. Can not speak to how this LDS structures the skill for the OW dives.

Anyways...sorry for the hijack...back to the topic at hand...

jar546
June 14th, 2012, 09:12 AM
Yeah, again, this was in the pool only. Can not speak to how this LDS structures the skill for the OW dives.




Sorry, I was referring to the OP in post #1 who stated they did that in OW. Should have clarified

scubacrow757
June 15th, 2012, 08:43 PM
I was there as part of the weekend group. Not part of the class, but as a diver joining the group for the weekend. Just to clarify, because there seems to be a misconception that he was allowed to go back into the water to dive. This was not the case. The exercise he was to perform was the SSI buddy towing on the surface and removal and re-donning the equipment. The instructor and dive con, first, asked him if he was up to the task and he said yes he wanted to do it. Again, this was not a dive. He was to remain on the surface, under snorkel condition.

---------- Post added ----------

You state that "there really was no crisis". That's not how it came across the first time. Why don't you just stop your post and let this die. You are bringing undue attention to yourself , your instructors, the dive school and the entire diving community as a whole.

jaycanwk
June 16th, 2012, 04:33 PM
I was there as part of the weekend group. Not part of the class, but as a diver joining the group for the weekend. Just to clarify, because there seems to be a misconception that he was allowed to go back into the water to dive. This was not the case. The exercise he was to perform was the SSI buddy towing on the surface and removal and re-donning the equipment. The instructor and dive con, first, asked him if he was up to the task and he said yes he wanted to do it. Again, this was not a dive. He was to remain on the surface, under snorkel condition.

What everyone here is concerned with is that he was allowed to go back into into the water period, instead of to the hospital after showing symptoms of lung trauma irregardless of weather he told the instructor he was fine or not.

But I guess this thread is dead cause the OP and/or the instructor hasn't come back to clarify, so I guess we'll never know.

halocline
June 16th, 2012, 05:57 PM
I can say that if the failure was the spg, then it can empty quick. I have personally witness a spg blow and drain a tank in about 30 secs. Maybe that is what the op meant.

Daru

Nope, no way. There's a flow restrictor in the HP port. A full tank takes maybe 20 minutes to drain out the HP port of a regulator, not 30 seconds. Sorry....

Now, this guy had around 500 PSI, maybe less, when his HP hose started leaking. If it took him 5 minutes or more to get out of the water, there's no reason why his tank couldn't be empty, or close to empty, by then. HP hose failures sure look spectacular, so it would be quite easy for the new diver to think that he was losing all his air. Plus, he was pretty anxious about the dive in general, judging from the post. That would tend to make those bubbles a lot scarier looking.

I'm only about half way through the thread so far, but I wonder if it's possible his 'pink frothy' spit up was just a bloody nose mixed in with some mucus and water. Just a guess, because like so many other people, I find it amazingly difficult to believe that an instructor would allow a diver who really was coughing up blood from a lung injury to go back into the water instead of rushing the diver to the hospital. That's the part that just can't be true, can it?

tracydr
June 16th, 2012, 09:16 PM
It's still not the instructor's job to decide this. In fact, as an instructor, I would expect him to error on the conservative side and encourage the student to get checked out. If he refused, and it were me or my husband, we would not let him back in the water. Any exertion, even putting tanks away, would not be allowed. I'd really be worried about letting him drive home by himself. Might be nothing but might be something.
hindsight is 20/20 but at the moment, it is hard to diagnose any type of chest pain, difficulty breathing and anxiety is terribly hard to separate from other types of chest pain, even for medical professionals. Add to this, the frothy, pink sputum, well, too much.

Scoober
June 22nd, 2012, 04:23 PM
Is this for real? Or is someone yanking chain? If this story is for real, the instructor needs the credentials pulled. No question about it. I have taught a great many courses and this is outrageous.

CindyMac
June 22nd, 2012, 06:26 PM
I hope you have sought medical help - I am an RN (pediatric intensive) and sounds quite like pulmonary edema - lung injury. Shame on your instructor! Please do as others have suggested. Hope you will be okay.

Scoober
June 22nd, 2012, 08:10 PM
Agree. Get to a doc as soon as you can. You certainly don't want gas bubbles flowing through you circulatory! And then file a report with the cert agency. You may also want to give a call to Divers Alert Network.

ktomlinson
June 22nd, 2012, 09:21 PM
Wouldn't bubbles, if they were ever present, have gone away by now? It is eleven days later.

Scoober
June 26th, 2012, 06:15 PM
Not if there is a tear in a lung

OnTheDescent
June 29th, 2012, 09:54 PM
Did he get cert or not? While his post, however unbelievable, says he got his cert his personal info says hes not certified. My instructor would have never let me continue!

---------- Post Merged at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:01 PM ----------

Absolutely not! Air might get messed with in pool trainging but I never had my air shut off & bolted to the surface! My instructor would have fired me! ;)

---------- Post Merged at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:01 PM ----------

Im SSI Cert & air is turned off in a controlled pool invironment. Air loss & weight dropping were not practiced in OW. My SSI instructor rocked! I got more than I paid for!

arthurmnev
June 30th, 2012, 08:38 AM
There were a couple of times when i tried to pick up an egg and ended up dropping them. The first time i dropped one i was able to swim down hard, and grab it before it fell to the bottom. The 2nd time i dropped one i swam down hard to try and get it but realized i was going too deep so i gave up, and just let it drop. I then came back up to where everyone else was. I felt exerted after that last sprint and was trying to continue swiming along with the group, but i just couldnt slow down my breathing after sprinting down to save that last egg. I started taking really big breaths, and i just couldnt seem to get enough air in my lungs. I started hypervenilating bad! I knew something was really wrong, and i needed to try to slow down my breathing, but despite my efforts i just couldnt catch my breath. It felt like a boa constrictor was wrapped around my chest, and squeezing the life outa me.
It was then that panic set in! I couldnt breathe, and i couldnt take it anymore! I seriously felt like i was going to die! I bolted to the surface as quick as i could! Nitrogeon be damned i had to breathe! When i got the surface i still was hypervenilating horribly but managed to inflate my bc and swim to the side. Some people rushed over and tried to help me. I felt like i was going to pass out. They helped me remove my equipment and that enabled me to breathe a little better. But then all this stuff started coming out of my lungs! I started coughing uncontrolably, and spitting out all this foamy pink tinged phlem. I think the pink tint must have been blood. My lungs felt raw. I wasnt congested so i dont know where all this stuff i was coughing up was coming from, but was sure coughing up alot! An instuctor who came up shortly after me took me back, and gave me O2 and after alot more coughing and hacking i started to feel better.



When you went deeper to catch the egg, and came back up when you realized you are too deep... did you forget to breathe out? This sounds like lung overexpension injury... go get it checked.

---------- Post Merged at 08:38 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:36 AM ----------


Did he get cert or not? While his post, however unbelievable, says he got his cert his personal info says hes not certified. My instructor would have never let me continue!

---------- Post Merged at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:01 PM ----------

Absolutely not! Air might get messed with in pool trainging but I never had my air shut off & bolted to the surface! My instructor would have fired me! ;)

---------- Post Merged at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:01 PM ----------

Im SSI Cert & air is turned off in a controlled pool invironment. Air loss & weight dropping were not practiced in OW. My SSI instructor rocked! I got more than I paid for!

PADI air turn off is in the pool. CESA is in open water since there is no 30' pool around usually. And my instructor insisted I dont take the regulator out of my moth just dont breathe in.

Hawkwood
June 30th, 2012, 08:43 AM
When you went deeper to catch the egg, and came back up when you realized you are too deep... did you forget to breathe out? This sounds like lung overexpension injury... go get it checked.

---------- Post Merged at 08:38 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:36 AM ----------



PADI air turn off is in the pool. CESA is in open water since there is no 30' pool around usually. And my instructor insisted I dont take the regulator out of my moth just dont breathe in.

In PADI confined water or open water dives, the air is not turned off during CESAs.

mr_adrian70
July 9th, 2012, 09:49 PM
I just wanted to say that im appealing to scuba board to have my posting removed. So far my requests have been denied. I really wish this thread of mine would just disappear, but it dosent appear that it will. I dont feel that my instructors ever put me in harms way, and i feel now i was maybe a bit over dramatic in my recollection of the whole thing. After going to Er i was found to be in ok shape. I really regret sharing my story on this board. I had no idea all the trouble it would cause! It has created alot of problems for me, and the company i took my O.W. class through. I had no idea sharing my story could have such a negative impact on so many people,create so many hard feelings, and do so much damage to the reputation of a good local business. I am trying my best to smoothe things over now, and mend damaged relationships and reputations. I just want to put all this behind me, and be able to dive again! This is the last time i wish to discuss this matter. Hopefully after this, everyone will just let it go and i can finally move on.

danpass
July 9th, 2012, 10:36 PM
In PADI confined water or open water dives, the air is not turned off during CESAs.

I'd wondered about this as well, not remembering having done that.

Just an air-off while kneeling at the pool bottom. It was interesting feeling the tank get shut off yet still having two breaths remaining in the system (at 12 feet).

jaycanwk
July 10th, 2012, 09:02 AM
I just wanted to say that im appealing to scuba board to have my posting removed. So far my requests have been denied. I really wish this thread of mine would just disappear, but it dosent appear that it will. I dont feel that my instructors ever put me in harms way, and i feel now i was maybe a bit over dramatic in my recollection of the whole thing. After going to Er i was found to be in ok shape. I really regret sharing my story on this board. I had no idea all the trouble it would cause! It has created alot of problems for me, and the company i took my O.W. class through. I had no idea sharing my story could have such a negative impact on so many people,create so many hard feelings, and do so much damage to the reputation of a good local business. I am trying my best to smoothe things over now, and mend damaged relationships and reputations. I just want to put all this behind me, and be able to dive again! This is the last time i wish to discuss this matter. Hopefully after this, everyone will just let it go and i can finally move on.

Hopefully you have learned a couple of other lessons to:

1) If your story is 100% true, that you have leared that we here at Scubaboard (I may or may not speak for everyone) care about our fellow divers, and that your well being is more important than the reputation of a negligent shop/instructor.

OR

2) If your story is not entirly true and that you "may have been a bit over dramatic"/trolling, as you put it, you have learned that we are a prety smart bunch and will call you on it.

Cixelsyd
July 10th, 2012, 02:28 PM
I'd wondered about this as well, not remembering having done that.

Just an air-off while kneeling at the pool bottom. It was interesting feeling the tank get shut off yet still having two breaths remaining in the system (at 12 feet).

This is the only time I remember the air being shut off as well. In a pool, completely controlled environment, just to see what a low air issue would feel like on a reg. The CESA simulation, as far as I can recall was done with the air on the entire time, in case we needed it, with the instructor surfacing next to us to monitor and make sure we were exhaling the entire time.


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