Tampering and Theft of Cave Equipment

Indy · Dec 3, 2003

i am interested in your experiences regarding the theft and / or tampering with cave equipment (reels, lines, arrows, deco bottles).

if you have any experience (or opinions) regarding this issue, please post, but especially email me at indycave-forums@yahoo.com.

please include the (aprox) time/ date of the incidence, the nature of the problem, and the eventual resolution, if any as well as any other relevant information.

thanks in advance.

nikki

nalfein · Dec 4, 2003

Indy once bubbled...
i am interested in your experiences regarding the theft and / or tampering with cave equipment (reels, lines, arrows, deco bottles).

That happens!? I can't believe people f@$k with gear like that, is this while it's underwater?? Some folks should be put to sleep....:upset: It should be some big ogre with a bat's job to put the smackdown on those clowns.

Indy · Dec 4, 2003

unfortunately it does happen. if u want more information, u can monitor the following forum discussions:

http://www.cavediver.net/disc_tocf.htm

and

http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/Forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

thanks for your reply.

nikki

Cave Diver · Dec 4, 2003

Indy once bubbled...
i am interested in your experiences regarding the theft and / or tampering with cave equipment (reels, lines, arrows, deco bottles).

This is something I asked about when I did my cave training. I wasnt too keen on leaving some of my expensive new equipment in the cave when we were setting up circuits, etc.

My instructor told me that the tampering or removal of equipment can be considered attempted manslaughter in Florida. Not sure of the accuracy of this statement, but it certainly sounds feasible.

Indy · Dec 4, 2003

Yes John,

that is my understanding as well. I am still in the long process of researching the problem, the laws, and the solutions available, but i believe this is true.

If what i have discovered is correct, tampering with other's safety equipment can be considered an offense which is criminally punishable. if an injury were to result from some one altering or removing another's safety equipment from a cave, they may even be brought up on attempted murder, or murder charges.

i still have a long way to go to get to the bottom of this complicated dilema, but will try to keep findings posted.

also see:

http://www.cavediver.net/disc_tocf.htm

and

http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/Forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4

for other opinions and problems relating to the issue.

nikki

adder70 · Dec 5, 2003

Florida has a felony murder law meaning that any death in the course of a felony is considered murder (enacted to combat, "I really didn't mean to shoot him! I just wanted to rob him and he attacked me! It was self defense!" but also applies to heart attacks during a crime) so if you can prove that they were indeed trying to steal the equipment then it would be felony murder regardless of any specific laws.

However, you also have the issue of idiot OW divers and free divers that don't know any better and remove equipment thinking that it was left. That is much less common now but does still occasionally happen. This is where the issue becomes muddier, especially concerning completely untrained people with large lung capacity that can easily reach, say, the deco logs at Ginnie. That is not a simple case of black and white, and may be the purpose of the tampering law.

Corey

db8us · Dec 5, 2003

It happens in Europe !

People might use your safeties to get out and never tell you.
Even better...they take them away and you have to make phonecalls to retrieve them somewhere and then they have even cut away your SS-boltsnaps.

Also "competitors" will drain your safeties to prevent you from pushing a cave.

This is not hearsay, it happened to my buddy and myself !

Michael

adder70 · Dec 5, 2003

db8us once bubbled...

Also "competitors" will drain your safeties to prevent you from pushing a cave.

This is not hearsay, it happened to my buddy and myself !

Michael

That isn't questionable, that's clearly attempted murder. I personally don't advocate that you should act in self defense.

Indy · Dec 8, 2003

adder70 once bubbled...
Florida has a felony murder law meaning ...
However, you also have the issue of idiot OW divers and free divers that don't know any better and remove equipment thinking that it was left. That is much less common now but does still occasionally happen. This is where the issue becomes muddier, especially concerning completely untrained people with large lung capacity that can easily reach, say, the deco logs at Ginnie. That is not a simple case of black and white, and may be the purpose of the tampering law.

Corey

Corey,

forgive my ignorance.. could you explain what you know of the tampering law?

Indy · Dec 8, 2003

db8us once bubbled...
It happens in Europe !

People might use your safeties to get out and never tell you.
Even better...they take them away and you have to make phonecalls to retrieve them somewhere and then they have even cut away your SS-boltsnaps.

Also "competitors" will drain your safeties to prevent you from pushing a cave.

This is not hearsay, it happened to my buddy and myself !

Michael

I've heard some of the same from divers in mexico as well.
where in europe did this occur?

.. I know that already many of the caves are completely closed there.. Particularly in Italy. I think its more open in Germany and France, but divers in Italy tell us that they no longer allow any training in the caves, and mostly make the caves inaccessible to divers of any certification because of a history of accidents and incidents.

.. Bummer.

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