Daughter had bad experiences in pool / too big a class size/ more questions

[kimanjo]

Hi, all. I'm writing on behalf of my daughter, 20. She began Scuba lessons last week at our local dive center. The first days she took class there were 18 students and one instructor. The second day the class had 20 students. The third day, at the pool, there was her classroom instructor and 3 assistants.

Although she is an excellent snorkel- and skin diver, as she was raised in Key West and has had a lot of experience in the water, plus she does other watersports--the large class and crowded pool setting made her nervous. She was overwhelmed and she felt things were going too quickly, as she had lots of questions. She didn't "get" the dive tables. Also, there were 2 bad incidents at the pools: her BC exploded, (which they replaced) and then an O-ring snapped and her regulator exploded(?) --made a loud pop, and also had to be replaced. This happened while she was entering the pool. The instructors told her this was happening because the weather was really hot. Also, the instructor weighted her, but she still couldn't get down, so the instructor held her hand to keep her submerged.

Everything went downhill from there. Underwater daughter panicked, she was wondering when/if the next bad thing was going to happen. She couldn't focus and she forgot to purge her regulator....you can guess the rest.

She's really upset, because she's been wanting to dive for years, and she considers herself a failure. I told her my experience is that it took me a month--a month! while working on a boat, and having a one- on one- sessions with the first mate (a DM) to get me comfortable with diving and the terminology, dive tables, etc. I have a friend who was in a group of 3, who did the course over three weekends, then spent 3 more weekends in the pool then a weekend on OW work. My nephew took a class while at college and he spent the entire semester learning scuba.

I have emphasized to daughter that scuba is something that should not be rushed, a lot of it is based upon confidence, built on a firm foundation of knowledge, and had I known this 4 day course was going to be so big and impersonal I would never have suggested it.

Daughter is now planning a trip to Roatan/Utila this summer (along with the highlands of Honduras) and she wants to dive, but she may need to go at a slower pace than is normal, because she wants to re-build her confidence. Is this possible?? Also, she has no desire to dive beyond 30 feet, absolutely none. No wreck diving, no cave diving, no thrill- seeking--just the desire to however around a reef and observe the colorful marine life.

Any suggestions?

[JamesK]

Let her know she is FAR from a failure. Many many many excellent divers had problems in the begining. We are in an environment that is alien to our bodies. Do not give up hope and keep practicing. You never stop learning SCUBA. Over ten years doing it, and unknown number of dives, and I learn every dive.

I really question the instructor holding her down. Not good IMO. I am also wondering what hot weather has to do with a BC and regulator "exploding"? I am in Cuba, and it is hotter the two muskrats shoved in a wool sock. I have never had anything "explode".

I would suggest she speak to the instructor and see if she can set up private pool time, or find out if he has a smaller class she can attend. It will take time, but if she really wants to pursue it, she can do it.

[RickyF]

I would suggest that she talk to her instructor outside of the classrom and let him know how uncomfortable she is. Maybe she could schedule some one on one instruction and get more comfortable. As for diving Roatan and Utila, I can only comment on Roatan. The diving on Roatan is pretty easy with little if any current. There are plenty of shallow reefs. She may have to hire a personal DM as to not impact the other divers. I have never dove Utila, so I can't comment there. If she needs a recommendation for a good dive shop on Roatan, PM me and I will give her an excellent shop name.

[tracydr]

Could she just find a different, smaller class with a new instructor? Maybe semi-private? Perhaps she can request part or all of her money back from the first class, since they weren't following guidelines (assuming those were the actual numbers without assistant instructors). 18 students with 1 instructor? What agency is this? At least, for PADI, that we be far to many students to instructors.

[dfx]

Shows how important it is to carefully research the shop you're doing the course with, and the course itself. Of course, that's something hardly anybody knows ahead of time. Because a course is a course, right?

Personally I'd recommend taking another OWD class with a different shop, maybe also a different agency. Of course that means additional $$$ and time, but it's worth it. My ACUC course ran over 10 weeks, with at least one hour pool session every week, and that was just about enough.

[TNRonin]

With all due respect you need to back up and let the girl stand on her own two feet. She is 20 after all. Why isn't she posting this? OMG.

Sorry I'm a high school teacher and I have to deal with this stuff all the time. I would suggest that she watch the youtube video of the commencement address about not being special.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f2j53aXDUQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Now that is done. I would suggest she seek a smaller class size and discuss the issues with the instructor. Your terminology of "exploded" sounds quite like you are attempting to Garner sympathy for the situation. I have yet to hear of a BCD exploding. I'm sure there will be others with more tact that come along. And I guarantee there will be others with less as well.

Sent from my DROID X2

[DivemasterDennis]

There are a number of things "wrong" with the pool training as reported, and I am curious as to what agency is involved. It might be a good idea to go elsewhere. Improper instruction, faulty equipment, bogus explanation of cause of equipment failure, lack of communication on size and dynamics of the class. I really think a fresh start is appropriate. Based on what is presented, I would not engage further with that instructor or facility. I would encourage your daughter by focusing on the problems she has encountered that were not of her making, and that she should wipe the slate and start again with a reputable program and competent instruction. You have a lot of options for that in Florida.
DivemasterDennis

[oly5050user]

sounds like a cheap course that is cutting standards, and using old broken down gear to keep costs down.Real bad start to this activity.. If thats the case you get what you pay for..a quality course should not be the cheapest in town... Don't walk but run from that instructor/facility..find a facility that limits the amount of students in it,ideally no more than 6 to 8 students ..or sign up for private 1 to 1 class..if it is a PADi course the student should own their copy of text/rdp tables/log/dvd video..or complete PADI online training..I would suggest to watch the video module 1 -read module 1 text DO knowledge review 1.Continue all this on to module 5..Do this BEFORE the start of class work so student gets to class prepared. The tables are actually way easy and many people get it completely just by watching video and reading book and completing knowledge reviews. If the system I described is followed completely the course is so easy a 5th grader can do it.
Do not get the idea that a quality course has to take weeks/months to do..Most people "get it" with about 18 hours of classroom/pool work.Can be done over a weekend easily..Some with less time,some with more. Everyone learns at a different rate.Shortest time I have ran a ow course was 4 to 6 hours.Students came in prepared having done PADI online academics and scored 100% on review exam.Pool time consisted of instr demonstrating skill and students (2 of them in a private class) got it 1st attempt and were able to repeat skill again and again in a calm,comfortable manner. Both students were water people having been snorkeling before and good swimmers.

[Jim Lapenta]

She did not fail. The course and instructor failed her. One of the worst things a new diver can do is sign up for a class without researching it. That may be her only shortfall here but even then it is not common knowledge among the non diving public that all basic OW courses are not the same by any stretch of the imagination. Your daughter seems to have gotten caught up in a factory class. Little individual attention, lots of shortcuts, and no extra effort to address the needs of individual students. You'd be doing new divers a favor by naming this outfit and helping others avoid her bad experience. My classes are never more than 4 students and run 6-8 weeks twice a week. One session classroom and the other pool. Each running two to two and a half hours. She sounds like this is the type of course she needs. There are instructors all over the world that teach this type of class. Call or email SEI headquarters www.seidiving.org and ask for a name.

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[herman]

Spend the extra money and get a private instructor. Once she gets certified she really really needs to spend some time UW before heading off on a dive trip. Not to be rude but if she doesn't get some bottom time in and becomes comfortable diving she will be that instabuddy that everyone hates to get stuck with. The vast majority of the dives I have done on Roatan are free accents and deeper than 30 ft. She needs to be comfortable diving in those conditions or she is setting herself up for a bad experience.

[JamesK]

With all due respect you need to back up and let the girl stand on her own two feet. She is 20 after all. Why isn't she posting this? OMG.

Sorry I'm a high school teacher and I have to deal with this stuff all the time. I would suggest that she watch the youtube video of the commencement address about not being special.
'You're Not Special' Graduation Speech - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f2j53aXDUQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Now that is done. I would suggest she seek a smaller class size and discuss the issues with the instructor. Your terminology of "exploded" sounds quite like you are attempting to Garner sympathy for the situation. I have yet to hear of a BCD exploding. I'm sure there will be others with more tact that come along. And I guarantee there will be others with less as well.

Sent from my DROID X2

Without knowing the situation, maybe we should just comment on the post, and not about her daughters ability to stand on her own two feet. Maybe her daughter has no access to a computer. Who knows? Also, remember this is the flame free forum.


OP< what part of Florida are you talking about? Maybe someone here can recommend a instructor or even help themselves.

[nimoh]

your daughter could do a discover scuba on her trip, there is lots to see on a shallow reef.

As for certification, I agree with all that said seek out a different instructor/smaller class. This post reminds me of a thread a while back on Groupon discounts for dive training...discount the price and pack them in to make a profit.

[supergaijin]

If she is happy at depths of 30ft, then she's a prime candidate for PADI Scuba Diver (or other agency's equivalent), as opposed to doing the full OW. Later when she's confident and if she wants, she can try the OW again. She's 20- I reckon she's still got a couple of good years left in her.

I would suggest she would benefit from an afternoon of one on one with a female instructor. Sounds like a good 'father to daughter' present.

[kimanjo]

We parents "bought" this scuba class as a birthday gift to our daughter. We parents did not research the scuba shop nor ask the right questions. We just saw the "special promo" being advertised and paid for the class.

Why did our daughter not do the research, etc? Well, first, you don't know what you don't know, and how would she be able to evaluate her needs, as a newbie, for a dive course? She was away at college, and we said we would handle it here in our hometown, so she would be able to come back home in the summer and take the course. This was our gift to her. And of course she assumed that with both parents being certified divers (albeit we stopped diving a long, long time ago) that we knew what we were doing in selecting a dive shop.

She is feeling guilty about "wasting" our money. She is feeling like a failure.

About the gear exploding, I'm not sure it did just that, but she said it sounded like shotgun going off, and it was two separate incidents. Regardless, this just shouldn't be happening with gear--or should it? You tell me.

[mdax]

In my opinion that was instructor failure, not daughter failure. I'd send her to Doug Mudry or Dan Patterson at EE (http://www.extreme-exposure.com/)for a day of additional learning and comfort building if I was Dad. Some one on one time with an instructor that will take the time to explain everything to her satisfaction will build confidence and safe habits quickly.

[JamesK]

We parents "bought" this scuba class as a birthday gift to our daughter. We parents did not research the scuba shop nor ask the right questions. We just saw the "special promo" being advertised and paid for the class.

Why did our daughter not do the research, etc? Well, first, you don't know what you don't know, and how would she be able to evaluate her needs, as a newbie, for a dive course? She was away at college, and we said we would handle it here in our hometown, so she would be able to come back home in the summer and take the course. This was our gift to her. And of course she assumed that with both parents being certified divers (albeit we stopped diving a long, long time ago) that we knew what we were doing in selecting a dive shop.

She is feeling guilty about "wasting" our money. She is feeling like a failure.

About the gear exploding, I'm not sure it did just that, but she said it sounded like shotgun going off, and it was two separate incidents. Regardless, this just shouldn't be happening with gear--or should it? You tell me.

I think you made a very nice gesture for her. Like I said earlier, she should not feel she wasted anything. If this is through a shop, I would talk to the owner.

[dfx]

About the gear exploding, I'm not sure it did just that, but she said it sounded like shotgun going off, and it was two separate incidents. Regardless, this just shouldn't be happening with gear--or should it? You tell me.

It can. We've had a high pressure hose rupture during our course. It was one of the instructor's gear and it happened before he got in the water. Made a big bang. I believe that gear used for pool sessions sometimes isn't in the best condition, the chlorine has a habit of damaging it and some shops don't want to use the "good" gear (the stuff they use for "real" dives) for that.

[beaverdivers]

Unfortunately, you are the victim of a cheap dive class.

A private lesson(s) is the best solution to over come this problem.

Pay top dollar for the best instruction.

The result will be a comfortable diver.
Fortunately, your daughter is intelligent and recognizes that she needs more training.

Many students that are the product of the " $99.00 " SCUBA course aren't as smart.

They either quit or are the bad divers out there that never learned correctly from the start.

They are dangerous to the reef and other divers.

The culprits of these cheap SCUBA classes should be run out of town.

At the least you should get your money back.

As far as the gear, it is goes with the class: Cheap gear that has not been replaced or serviced! Just a guess.

[TSandM]

This sounds like a bit of a disaster -- there is no reason for someone who is a comfortable snorkeler and skin diver to have a panic experience in the pool on Scuba.

And although it's clear that there was a numbers problem with this class (which I'm assuming was inexpensive, because you said it was a "special"), I don't entirely blame you guys. Most people don't know there is a difference in diving classes -- at least I didn't, when I signed up for mine. I signed up for it because it was given through a shop three minutes from my house. I didn't even talk to any other shops. I think that's unfortunately very common.

I do think she should try again, but not with the outfit you used. E-learning might be an excellent way for her to work at her own pace, especially since she has had some introduction to the material before. Also, a one-on-one Discover Scuba session might give her the time to relax and play in the pool and get past the bad experience.

There are much better classes than the one described.

[SeaHorse81]

Your daughter did nothing wrong. It could be argued that she didn't even make a mistake in failing to research the instructor and class because, although those are excellent things to do, hardly anyone new to the sport realizes it needs to be done. People tend to just trust the professional, perhaps more so in something like diving which is so thoroughly foreign to one's other life experience.

The valuable lesson here then, which is a critical one in diving, is to not just blindly trust anyone. Your daughter can't be faulted for doing it once, because just about every diver does it once, if not many times. If she takes this lesson to heart and now does her homework on researching instruction, arranging for whatever time and respecting whatever limits she needs to in order to feel comfortable and move forward, then it will be a lesson that serves her very well through a long, happy life of diving.

I do hope she logs onto SB herself, so we can all say hello and give her some much needed moral support. :) She'll need to apply her own critical thinking and judgment to what she sees on SB, of course, but that will be good practice for doing so out in the real world of diving. :)

[shmuggy]

The good news is she lives in Florida- so after she gets certified- and I agree with the other posts how she should go about that- she should do a lot of diving in your local waters before the Honduras trip. Hopefully she can get comfortable with diving before then- there are lots of dive shops there and lots of instructors who will be more than happy to go out with her one on one while she gets up to speed.

[NavyGuyAN]

I agree with "DivemasterDennis" and "oly5050user." Whats the dive agency your using?...18 and then 20 students the next day, just doesnt sound right to begin with. Cutting corners, faulty equipment and not proper communication due to the number of students in the water. I'd say do a little research into another place and try that out and see how that works. And she's not a failure, just keep trying and never give up.

PADI Standards:

Student Diver-Instructor ratio: 8 students to 1 instructor (8:1) or 12
maximum with two certified assistants.

[beaverdivers]

As NavyGuyAN pointed out, training standards were probably violated.

Moreover, your daughter should not have been " passed on " to Open Water ( OW ) if she is not ready.

This procedure of passing on students to OW is just wrong.

I believe that there has been at the very least an ethical violation!

[Hawkwood]

I agree with "DivemasterDennis" and "oly5050user." Whats the dive agency your using?...18 and then 20 students the next day, just doesnt sound right to begin with. Cutting corners, faulty equipment and not proper communication due to the number of students in the water. I'd say do a little research into another place and try that out and see how that works. And she's not a failure, just keep trying and never give up.

PADI Standards:

Student Diver-Instructor ratio: 8 students to 1 instructor (8:1) or 12
maximum with two certified assistants.

Just to clarify.

There are different ratios for the Confined Water Dives and the Open Water Dives. You quoted the Open Water Dive ratios.

The ratios do not affect the sizes of the classroom. I read the OP as having two days of classroom - first day with 18, second day with 20.

The third day was in the pool with 20 students, 1 instructor, 3 assistants. The ratio of student to instructor in CW is 10:1 with an additional 4 per CA. There is no restriction in the Standards on the number of CAs for CW dives. Therefore, the instructor was within Standards.

[Jim Lapenta]

In order to try and help them avoid a repeat experience I emailed the OP a pdf copy of my book this morning. Hopefully it will guide them towards finding better instruction.

---------- Post added ----------

And just because it may be within standards does not make it wise when dealing with a large number and variety of students. Some of whom may require more individual attention.