Overhead environments and open water scuba divers [Archive] - ScubaBoard - Scuba Diving Forum

TSandM

July 1st, 2012, 02:45 AM

This thread is prompted by a number of accidents, but the most recent was yesterday, when four people died in a sea cave in Italy, because they followed a guide into an environment where they didn't have the training to cope with the complications that ensued.

This is not a diatribe about "don't dive in any overhead environments without appropriate training." That's an easy answer, but it isn't the reality of what people actually DO out there. LOTS of OW divers dive, or are led through sanitized wrecks or "benign" overhead environments like the Cathedrals off Lanai. One really doesn't hear about incidents from those dives, and that's probably due to the relatively benign nature of the challenge. Thousands of divers do the cenote dives in MX each year, and except for a single recent accident, one doesn't hear about incidents there, either. That's probably due to the careful (but voluntary) rules that have been developed for those dives.

But one DOES hear of people dying in overhead environments. People get trapped in wrecks or lost in caves . . . All too often, those people are following guides. So how is the OW (or just purely recreationally trained diver) to assess whether he should or should not do a given dive that's proposed to him?

The BIGGEST risk in overhead diving is getting lost. If you can find the exit, you will almost certainly survive the dive -- but if you can't, you will drown. Overheads are complicated for two reasons: One, there can be complex navigation, with multiple choices of path, of which only one or a few will result in a successful exit. Two, one has to be able to see to navigate, and overhead environments often involve conditions in which the visibility can rapidly decrease to low or zero.

So this offers a few ideas for assessing the risk of a proposed dive. If the overhead environment has complex ramifications (multiple navigations choices) you don't belong in there. That requires a guideline, and the ability to follow the guideline in the dark. If you can't do that, don't go in.

If the overhead environment has significant silt or other unstable sediment (or material on the walls or ceiling -- you don't have to have bottom sediments to blow the viz) then you require a guideline, and the ability to follow it in the dark. If you can't do that, you don't belong in there.

If the overhead environment involves ANY kind of restriction -- defining that as a place where two divers can't swim comfortably side-by-side -- you don't belong in there. If you have any problem beyond the tight spot, you won't be able to negotiate your exit with anybody assisting you, whether that's air-sharing or just calming you down. The only overhead spots appropriate for untrained divers are generous ones.

A place like the Cathedrals, where there are multiple exits, with a coarse sand bottom and tons of light, is pretty benign. "Sanitized" wrecks, like the Cape Breton in Nanaimo, are reasonably benign (yeah, the CB is not because it's deep, but it's the idea). If you can easily see your exit from your entry, straight across, it's likely not to be too bad.

If you are following someone into the dark, and you don't know what the topography is of where you are going, and you don't know the composition of the bottom sediments, and you can't run a guideline or follow one blind . . . be very cautious about your decisions to follow someone into an overhead environment. They can, and do, kill.

bowlofpetunias

July 1st, 2012, 04:32 AM

Thanks for a sensible set of criteria to consider. I am not certified for overhead and don't see myself going there either. I Like having a good set of criteria to help measure whether or not a given site is for me. Interesting that the few caves caves I have entered meet all of your criteria except one cave and one of the criteria.

Fishrock cave has a short (2M) chimney where two divers can not be side by side. No way you could get stuck in it but they are careful of what divers go through that section. It opens up very wide once you are through it. You can also exit the cave without going back through the chimney.

Might I suggest another criteria would be related to an honest assessment of a diver's comfort in the water and their dive skills. I would suggest that the average recreational diver with less than 150 or so dives is not likely to be ready for an overhead environment. If you are not comfortable that you ned someone else to "help" you conduct the dive.. you are not ready for it! Just my .02

Scott L

July 1st, 2012, 05:11 AM

jmneill

July 1st, 2012, 09:27 AM

Thanks for the very reasonable open minded assessment concearning OW divers in overhead situations. This thread is bound to go downhill fast, but I for one appreciate this well thought out logical approach to the subject.

Hawkwood

July 1st, 2012, 09:36 AM

Amazingly, I have been led by two different instructors in totally dark overhead environments (Deep wrecks) in the keys in recent years. If the intrustion was part of a detailed dive plan, I may have acquiesced and violated long established training protocols anyway. Instead, I was fairly upset that the instructors needlessly stressed me out. I would venture to guess that most OW guide led excurstions are not mentioned in the dive plan...

I think this is true in a number of cases. My wife will not go into any overhead environment, even an open walkway on a prepared wreck. There have been numerous times when we have been on "lead dives" where the guide has gone into a swim through or the like that was not in the briefing. Everyone else follows, we either end up following bubble trails through the cracks over top, or we head off on our own. If the overhead is discussed during the briefing, she lets them know what her plans will be.

Even as new divers, we trusted our intuitions and training and either sat out dives or "modified" the plan if confronted with decisions we were not comfortable with.

I will stretch my limits, but only other divers that I know and am comfortable with.

Bill

(oh yes....great topic TSandM!)

beaverdivers

July 1st, 2012, 10:02 AM

The Open Water ( OW ) diver must use caution when choosing a guide. Meeting someone on a street corner, then following them blindly into a cenote may cost them their life.

This senario happened to one of our divers years ago. She was meant to dive with our Instructor in Cozumel. She chose to go with the guy off the street.

She had just finished her advanced open cert. She was close friends with Sheck Exley. She knew about the dangers of cave diving. She knew she was not qualified.

Why did she go into the cave?

Six divers went in, only three came out.

She was not one of them!

tstormdiver

July 1st, 2012, 11:10 AM

It is a great topic, Lynne. This may get a little awkward on my part. Yes, you are correct, untrained divers going into overhead environments seems to be the norm. But why is this? Most anyone who has head overhead environment training, especially cave divers, should be familiar with Shek Exley's book, "Blueprint for Survival". Based off of research & observations to cave diving accidents & incidents, he created the "5 rules of safe cave diving".
#1 getting the proper training for the dive to be undertaken (whether overhead or Open water). It is well documented that untrained divers or divers diving beyond their training & experience accounts for a large portion of accidents that occur.
#2 is, as you mentioned knowing how to run & use a guideline to find the exit. (once again back to training). A guideline may be your best friend for finding the exit or your worst enemy- entanglement.
#3 Air or gas management. To know how to properly plan gases to get out (once again valid in either open water or overhead), even in the event of an emergency that may slow egress or require air sharing. To learn to properly manage the gases, requires training. Not planning enough gas to get out, may lead to a very bad day.
#4 Depth. Keeping depth to within training & experience levels. You need to have a clear head to deal with possible complications. In an overhead environment, problems are multiplied.
#5 Lights. Making sure you have ample light supplies to help make a possibly difficult egress a bit easier.

For the most part, most of the rules fall back on training, being aware, knowing how to read the environment & preparing for the "what if's". How many divers going on these "trust me" dives really consider what "may" happen? When I went into Vortex as an untrained diver, I certainly didn't. I only thought about, "wow,... I really want to see what's in there". It nearly cost me dearly. Until I pursued my training in cavern- Full cave, I really had no clue as to what the risks really were. Simply put, you don't know, what you don't know. Sure, I had some idea of a few of the risks, but until my incident & the training, it was really only an abstract, not really real. How many of these divers going into an overhead, believe that their own skills &/or their guide will keep them safe. A lot of guides, though they may be good at what they do, are not cave/ wreck/ Overhead environment instructors. Cave/ Wreck (wreck penetration)/ overhead instructors at least have the training how to handle problems & divers who are new to the overhead environment, to have the best possible outcome in an emergency. I have heard of experienced wreck divers going into a simple wreck where ambient light is easily seen, to only have another divers actions (panic, badly placed fin, buoyancy issues or such) wipe out all visibility & light until the experienced diver was outside of the wreck, using the emergency techniques he was trained in. Even the most benign & sanitized overheads may still have risks that may be even less obvious than more advanced dive sites. Just because it looks safe, does not mean that it is. Since my incident & training, I look at ANY overhead differently,... even going through a van in my local quarry (no more than 10 ft). Even though I can swim through it in seconds, I still take a moment before going in to assess the risks I'm undertaking, even as minor as that.

Let's face it,... How much resources does it take to at least get minimal training (cavern or wreck)? Most of these courses run maybe a couple hundred $ & take about a day or so to complete. Well within the means of many, but many do not take them because they figure they won't ever use it. Yet will go through these swim throughs, wrecks or caverns with or without a guide, mostly oblivious to what might happen. 99.9999....% of the time nothing happens. It's that .0000000...1% that should give most of us cause to reassess the dive we are about to undertake. If nothing else, a well run overhead environment course may help a diver to better see the risks, as major or minimal as they may be, & to assess whether the dive is worth the risk.

If a diver should still decide to go into an overhead environment without training, then they should also go in without a light, so as to limit their penetrations to distances that can easily be retraced to exit.

OK, off my soap box now. Based off my personal experience & now being able to see both trains of thought, I just thought I would throw in my $.02, for what it is worth.

TSandM

July 1st, 2012, 12:04 PM

I totally agree, Tammy . . . People don't know what the risks ARE, and I'm sure these folks who died in Italy never thought about what would happen if they couldn't see, if they even knew that was possible.

As I said in the original post, the easy answer is "no overhead environments without training". But that isn't what happens, out there in the real world. People go dive the Cathedrals, or do swim-throughs in Cozumel. I swam through the bow portion of the Rhone as an OW diver, and I'd have a hard time telling someone that that's a completely unsafe thing to do, although if somebody panicked in there and tried to bolt, they'd be in a world of hurt.

I think some environments are more benign than others -- multiple exits, coarse sediments, lots of ambient light, minimal distance of penetration. Your idea about not carrying lights isn't a bad one, since all of the "benign" places I can think that I've been were easily dived without a light.

Darnold9999

July 1st, 2012, 12:05 PM

Interesting topic.

At this point in my diving I have decided to simply not go into any overhead situation. As a beginner I did a number of swim throughs and sanitized wrecks following guides. Never totally comfortable, and in retrospect some were dives that were not a good idea. Now I pass on any portion of a dive that involves overhead. Most, from my perspective, are just dives that engage the customers sense of "doing something dangerous" rather than there being something interesting to see. I don't need the added spice of danger to enjoy a dive. If there was something truly unique about a particular location I might reconsider, but so far I have not found one.

DivemasterDennis

July 1st, 2012, 12:22 PM

I really appreciate and agree with TSandM's post, and will share it with out next crop of new divers (big certification classes next weekend. Ditto for AOW students. A person needs to know their limitations. That includes DM's and dive leaders. I want to share that Debbie and I do some overhead environment dives, but as short swim throughs or wrecks with openings as large as a garage door ( Hilma Hooker, Carpathian, etc.) These are recreational dives appropriate to competent and experienced recreational divers, but heightened awareness and caution is still needed. We leave cave diving and wreck penetration to those skilled and trained for that kind of diving.
DIvemasterDennis

tstormdiver

July 1st, 2012, 12:51 PM

As I said in the original post, the easy answer is "no overhead environments without training". But that isn't what happens, out there in the real world. People go dive the Cathedrals, or do swim-throughs in Cozumel. I swam through the bow portion of the Rhone as an OW diver, and I'd have a hard time telling someone that that's a completely unsafe thing to do, although if somebody panicked in there and tried to bolt, they'd be in a world of hurt.

I think some environments are more benign than others -- multiple exits, coarse sediments, lots of ambient light, minimal distance of penetration. Your idea about not carrying lights isn't a bad one, since all of the "benign" places I can think that I've been were easily dived without a light.

No overhead without training may be the easy answer, but in light of what has been happening recently, what other real options is there to minimize the risks?

DaleC

July 1st, 2012, 01:15 PM

I'll play devils advocate for a moment and say that falling back on the "get formal training" refrain does carry some false optimism. As stated, a simple overhead course only takes a day or two but I question what can really be instilled and retained in that short of time. To me, when I look at those types of fatalities I see the primary causal factor being lack of discretion. This is an internal trait that can be re-enforced via training but can also be negated as well. Someone who lacks it is just as likely to enter an overhead because they now have the certification to do so, even though they lack the skill/knowledge.

Not knocking training, because it's valuable when correctly applied, but discretion. humility and the ability to say no to ourselves and others would go much further to reduce accidents of this nature IMO.

boulderjohn

July 1st, 2012, 01:33 PM

On the theme of not knowing what the danger is if you don't have the training....

When I was doing my cave training, at one point in the dive my instructor started down a wrong passage. It was a situation where the correct passage was not obvious, and he was testing me. I had to stare long and hard at the situation to be sure he was wrong, and then signal him with my light to bring him back. Being a student who was on the alert of that sort of thing made me more aware than another diver might be. As an inexperienced diver going with a friend into a cave, I might have followed that leader to our mutual doom.

In a recent death in Ginnie Springs in which an OW certified diver was found in a very confusing place in the cave system, the best conjecture as to what he as doing there was that he meant to just go in and out the cavern area but got confused and took a wrong turn. In that location, it would have been an easy mistake to make. Once he had taken that wrong turn, he was lost.

jmneill

July 1st, 2012, 01:59 PM

Your idea about not carrying lights isn't a bad one, since all of the "benign" places I can think that I've been were easily dived without a light.
[/QUOTE]

The problem with this is that these "benign" (or at least the ones I have dove and consider to be benign) places become substantially less enjoyable without a light. (or not enjoyable at all)

Lorenzoid

July 1st, 2012, 02:21 PM

Great set of guidelines. Unfortunately, the divers who dive where they shouldn't are not typically the ones who regularly read SB or any other serious source of diving information.

I've never felt comfortable with those swim-thrus in Cozumel, for example, yet I've always gone along with the group and never spoken up. That kind of swim-thru violates at least your principle of the passage having enough room for two divers side by side. If someone gets stuck in there, it might be minutes before the DM notices the missing diver. Meanwhile, the divers in the queue behind the missing diver waiting to enter the swim-thru and (often stumbling over each other near the entrance) might wonder what's going on, maybe panic, maybe try to swim around the coral head to attempt to rejoin the group on the other side and end up getting lost, etc. It's occurred to me that some of those relatively benign swim-thrus are not appropriate for a group of vacation divers being led by a single DM, as is often the case. Not to pick on Cozumel, but that's what came to mind based on my own dive experiences.

flots am

July 1st, 2012, 03:30 PM

jmneill

July 1st, 2012, 04:22 PM

It should be. If OW divers would listen to the above, fewer would die. Right around the last class session, I explain the "use of the middle finger underwater," "ending the dive without the DM" and "how to not tip" when interacting with dive guides and DMs who want to go places and do things that are not inappropriate.

Some folks make light of "Yer gonna die!", but the truth is that OW training does not teach procedures for zero-viz or overhead dives, and any OW divers that enter overheads are simply spinning the wheel and hoping for a good outcome. While it's nice to say "a silty bottom is dangerous," and "currents may be unpredictable", the divers would typically have no idea if the bottom was silty until it's too late.

flots.

What about the overhead dives where it is well known in advance that there is no silty bottom to stur up? I hate seeing this broad, accross the board stroke against all OW divers in ANY overhead environment. I wish I had the time to start a list of dive sites, public and private involving overhead (non cave) with excellent to stellar safety records. I'll bet, with a little research it would be the longest post in this thread.

tstormdiver

July 1st, 2012, 05:17 PM

What about the overhead dives where it is well known in advance that there is no silty bottom to stur up? I hate seeing this broad, accross the board stroke against all OW divers in ANY overhead environment. I wish I had the time to start a list of dive sites, public and private involving overhead (non cave) with excellent to stellar safety records. I'll bet, with a little research it would be the longest post in this thread.

I think the point of this thread is when/ where does an overhead environment become dangerous to an Open Water diver with no training? & how does one determine that danger without ending up a statistic? Penetrating 1 ft? 10 ft? 100ft? 1000ft? When is it too silty? A dusting? 1/16"?, 1/8"?, 1/4"?,...... What type of silt? Gravel? sand? mud? clay? Mung? Stability of the overhead environment? While, as you say, "many places have a stellar safety record", does that really mean it is safe? Or have they just been lucky so far? With the exception in a course environment (where there are still risks, but minimized) with a well trained, attentive instuructor, I tend to side with flotsam in that any time a diver goes outside of their training, they are loading 1 bullet into the revolver, free spinning the chamber, pulling back the hammer, pointing the gun at their temple & pulling the trigger. Will it land on the "one" slot with the bullet? or will you get lucky?

ianr33

July 1st, 2012, 05:34 PM

I think the real problem is that on the way in the average OW diver really doesn't have a clue if it's a safe environment or not.
As an example, an OW diver going to the back of the cavern in Jackson Blue would most likely be just fine. (Although I in NO WAY would suggest they do that) There is normally flow,often lots of flow.The bottom is rock and it's essentially impossible to silt it out.
Put the same diver in Hole in the Wall though and he's on borrowed time. No flow,masses of silt and the way out is not at all obvious without a line.

I doubt the unfortunate deceased divers in Italy were carefully assessing the flow and whether the bottom was sand or clay. It really is a case of you don't know what you don't know.

jmneill

July 1st, 2012, 05:40 PM

I think the point of this thread is when/ where does an overhead environment become dangerous to an Open Water diver with no training? & how does one determine that danger without ending up a statistic? Penetrating 1 ft? 10 ft? 100ft? 1000ft? When is it too silty? A dusting? 1/16"?, 1/8"?, 1/4"?,...... What type of silt? Gravel? sand? mud? clay? Mung? Stability of the overhead environment? While, as you say, "many places have a stellar safety record", does that really mean it is safe? Or have they just been lucky so far? With the exception in a course environment (where there are still risks, but minimized) with a well trained, attentive instuructor, I tend to side with flotsam in that any time a diver goes outside of their training, they are loading 1 bullet into the revolver, free spinning the chamber, pulling back the hammer, pointing the gun at their temple & pulling the trigger. Will it land on the "one" slot with the bullet? or will you get lucky?

Comparing the average OW diver, in the average overhead environment you would normaly find said diver, to a one in six shot of death is rediculous. I think your revolver would need to hold several hundred thousand rounds for this to be a good analogy.

tstormdiver

July 1st, 2012, 05:56 PM

Comparing the average OW diver, in the average overhead environment you would normaly find said diver, to a one in six shot of death is rediculous.

I am only saying, a diver (& I don't care what level they are at), going outside of their training is playing the odds, whether 6:1 or 1,000,000:1. Whatever the odds are, they are more greatly stacked against the diver without the knowlege or training.

OK, using the gun analogy,.. I'm not shootist, nor a gun owner, nor have I ever fired a gun. But if I where to just pick up a gun, without any training, & just start firing (if I even could), wouldn't you say the odds of myself or someone getting hurt or worse, be greater?
On that note, I ask you to cut me a little slack, just because I don't know the proper terms, I think you can get the gist of what I'm saying.

Racer_X

July 1st, 2012, 06:26 PM

Using the gun analogy - it depends on what those odds INCREASE to. If they increase by .1% and go from 0.01% to 0.11%, it's a DRAMATIC increase - 10 fold. However, what that really means is the odds of hurting someone go from 1 in 10,000 to 11 in 10,000 - it's not a big deal. Put it another way - if the odds of losing your money in vegas were 11 in 10,000 versus 5002 in 10,000, why would you ever leave?

It's not just understanding the odds change, but how much they change and where they change from - everything has to be understood as much as possible to make a value decision. That includes probability and impact. Just one isn't sufficient to make an informed decision.

BTW, if you've seen a cop show, you know how to fire a gun - insert clip, rack it back, and start firing. The bullets come out going very fast, so be careful where you point it.

Regarding an overhead environment - one thing we have to remember is we effectively dive with an overhead environment on dives below 40 feet. That surface looks really tempting when you breathe all 3000 psi from your 100s at 75 feet, but that's just as lethal as out of air in a cave - and a situation well within the OW parameters. I'll leave the "worse way to go" discussion for another thread.

Having gotten back from cenote diving in an overhead environment, I'd say the factors for danger for me would be:
Max and min visibility
Bottom conditions
Map availability
Route marking and familiarity
Quality and experience of guide
Previous safety/track record of site
Previous safety/track record of diving organization

All of these factors were determined by me before I got on the plane. I memorized the routes and had my own back up gear that I knew and trusted, and did field checks prior to the dives. In fact, the dive guide used my materials to do the group briefing because I accessed information that wasn't easily available to them.

That being said, I'll get cave certified before I try a serious wreck penetration course. But for cavern dives, even in low vis? Give me my lights, a line, compass, and the natural experience of 6 inch vis in the lake in my backyard, and I'm good.

Darnold9999

July 1st, 2012, 07:12 PM

Kingpatzer

July 1st, 2012, 07:18 PM

I think that part of the issue lay with instructors who have bought into the notion that we should sell students on how safe diving is. I actually make it a point to tell my students that this activity is safe "until you start doing things you don't know how to do." And I use entering a cave and a wreck as examples where they have the potential to get dead (along with a deep dive without adequate air).

I wish the standard OW course contained a few more of the scary stories about what happens when you don't follow the guidelines. Not because I want people to feel like diving is some extreme sport, but to instil in the average student a healthy respect for the limits of their knowledge and to get them to spend some time thinking about what the limit really is.

boulderjohn

July 1st, 2012, 07:18 PM

Regarding an overhead environment - one thing we have to remember is we effectively dive with an overhead environment on dives below 40 feet. That surface looks really tempting when you breathe all 3000 psi from your 100s at 75 feet, but that's just as lethal as out of air in a cave - and a situation well within the OW parameters. I'll leave the "worse way to go" discussion for another thread.

????? OOA at 75 feet is nowhere near as lethal as out of air in a cave within recreational limits. Not sure what you are talking about here???

I think he means that if you go OOA below 40 feet, it is not possible to get to the surface alive. If so, I'm confused as well and wonder what is wrong with CESA's and Buoyant Emergency Ascents. Back in the days when there were no SPGs and the J-valves would malfunction, people did OOA ascents from 75 feet with some regularity.

jmneill

July 1st, 2012, 07:25 PM

????? OOA at 75 feet is nowhere near as lethal as out of air in a cave within recreational limits. Not sure what you are talking about here???

I assume he's talking about the deco problem this could present if he just sucked two 100s dry at 75'? However, I think this would fall a little outside OW perameters. (even ignoring the depth)

ianr33

July 1st, 2012, 08:51 PM

I assume he's talking about the deco problem this could present

You can fix bent. You can't fix dead!

jmneill

July 1st, 2012, 09:15 PM

You can fix bent. You can't fix dead!

I hear ya, don't shoot the translator! :)

wtcreaux

July 1st, 2012, 09:26 PM

This is what I classify as "low-probability, extremely high consequence event"........which means I take as many precautions as I can........

I've too many years in Emergency Services to tempt Lady Luck :coffee: (YMMV)

BTW - Racer X......Haven't seen too many "clips" in a pistol....... magazines yes, clips no. Maybe you can enlighten me which pistols have clips, yes?

stairman

July 1st, 2012, 09:31 PM

We call these, trust me dives, and they can be your demise if you fall for one. Its all good till an o ring blows or any number of things that can cause one to panic in a minute. You gotta be smart about your hobby.

jmneill

July 1st, 2012, 09:33 PM

This is what I classify as "low-probability, extremely high consequence event"........which means I take as many precautions as I can........

I've got too many years in Emergency Services to tempt Lady Luck :coffee: (YMMV)

BTW - Racer X......Haven't seen too many "clips" in a pistol....... magazines yes, clips no. Maybe you can enlighten me which pistols have clips, yes?

+1 It took a lot of self restraint for me not to jump on that one as well. Maybe he has an SKS/ handgun hybrid no? :) To much TV and not enough time at the range...

PfcAJ

July 1st, 2012, 09:34 PM

BTW - Racer X......Haven't seen too many "clips" in a pistol....... magazines yes, clips no. Maybe you can enlighten me which pistols have clips, yes?

High-five for you! Clips vs mags is a pet peeve of mine. Good to see someone else on the proper nomenclature crusade!

flots am

July 1st, 2012, 09:45 PM

jmneill

July 1st, 2012, 09:53 PM

Anyplace that doesn't allow a direct ascent to the surface is inappropriate for Open Water divers.

There are may be places where an OW diver might be able to dive reasonably safely, but the OW divers have no way to know which of these "safe overhead environments" are actually safe and which are simply promoted as "safe."

Since an OW diver has no way to evaluate the risk other than "trust me, it's safe", the best course of action is to follow training and avoid them.

flots.

Or go by the LONG TERM safety record of the given site and or agency. What is the real difference between the average cavern certified diver and an OW diver who has done his due diligence reading, learning and slowly immersing him or herself into well known NON CAVE overhead environments pray tell? I'll tell you what it is, a plastic card. Are there overhead environments where certain OW divers don't belong? Of course. But the brush stroke you are using is to broad.

HenrikBP

July 1st, 2012, 09:55 PM

I came across this story by chance some years ago. Still can't read it without feeling short of breath and hair standing up on the back of my neck:

I really thought my end had come! - Rebreather World (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebreather-accidents-incidents/1431-i-really-thought-my-end-had.html)

In short the story is about how horribly sideways things can go, even when you're just going a short way in to take a quick peek.

I don't do swim-throughs or overheads unless they're big enough for me to easily turn around and get out and even then I don't go far. Granted I'm claustrophobic, so that adds to it :) , but my training has shown me how the smallest things can send you rapidly down the incident pit. I don't need to add overhead with untrained divers to the list ;)

chrpai

July 1st, 2012, 10:01 PM

This thread is bound to go downhill fast

You do seem to be doing a good job at it. Perhaps we should remember that this is the basic scuba zone and it's probably not good to be telling people they don't need c-cards.

flots am

July 1st, 2012, 10:03 PM

Or go by the LONG TERM safety record of the given site and or agency. What is the real difference between the average cavern diver and an OW diver who has done his due diligence reading, learning and slowly immersing him or herself into well known NON CAVE overhead environments pray tell? I'll tell you what it is, a plastic card.

I'm hoping that other differences would include buddy skills, gas planning, blackout drills, lost mask, lost buddy, line skills, and non-silting fin kicks.

So, which overhead SCUBA attraction do you make your living at?

flots.

ianr33

July 1st, 2012, 10:06 PM

Or go by the LONG TERM safety record of the given site and or agency. What is the real difference between the average cavern certified diver and an OW diver who has done his due diligence reading, learning and slowly immersing him or herself into well known NON CAVE overhead environments pray tell? I'll tell you what it is, a plastic card. Are there overhead environments where certain OW divers don't belong? Of course. But the brush stroke you are using is to broad.

Well,everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is mine;

I have and will continue to do many things I am not actually certified for ( Dive solo, in a drysuit,sidemount, deeper than 150 on air, deeper than 200 on trimix) but I never entered a cavern before doing the course, and would not recommend anyone else to do so either.

A cavern course only runs around $300. Why not do it?

jmneill

July 1st, 2012, 10:29 PM

I'm hoping that other differences would include buddy skills, gas planning, blackout drills, lost mask, lost buddy, line skills, and non-silting fin kicks.

So, which overhead SCUBA attraction do you make your living at?

flots.

You have flatly stated that no OW diver should not be in ANY overhead environment. How many thousands (to be on the conservative side) of overhead environments exsist that in reality require next to none of the criteria you have listed above. Gas planning for 20'? Doesn't take much of a plan IMO. Line skills for a 10' swim through? Non silting swim kicks on a dive where there is no silt? Should I go on. I will reiterate that in reality there are many OW divers diving in "safe" overhead environments that don't belong there, and many OW divers that don't belong in the water at all... But again the brush stroke is to broad... JMHO (which I feel strongly about)

As to what SCUBA attraction do I make a living at you question? Well, I quite obviously do not. Maybe if I did I would be coming from behind giving all your posts the thumbs up. (I doubt it)

JamesK

July 1st, 2012, 10:42 PM

I have said it before, and I will say it again. You don't need any training of any type to go in an overhead environment. However, you might need training to get out. That is the big thing. Yes, many caverns that allow OW divers have great safety records. That is because it is not the cavern that is going to kill you. It is the blown o-ring when you are 100 feet back in a cavern and can not get to the surface that will kill you. It is the instant drop in visibility and not knowing how to find the exit that will kill you. When things go right on a dive everything is great, and everyone thinks they can do what ever they want to do because of an excellent safety record. It is when things go wrong and you don't have the training to get out of that situation that will kill you.

mdax

July 1st, 2012, 10:56 PM

flots am

July 1st, 2012, 11:06 PM

You have flatly stated that no OW diver should not be in ANY overhead environment. How many thousands (to be on the conservative side) of overhead environments exsist that in reality require next to none of the criteria you have listed above. Gas planning for 20'? Doesn't take much of a plan IMO. Line skills for a 10' swim through? Non silting swim kicks on a dive where there is no silt?

Gas planning for 20'? Doesn't take much of a plan IMO.

Unless you're Superman, 20' of rock is more than enough to keep you from surfacing in an emergency. A guy died near me in a wreck in less than 40' and that was just a couple of inches of wood. Unless you can do a direct ascent to the surface, it's not "Open Water" diving, and the Open Water training is insufficient to perform the dive safely.

You can do whatever makes you happy. I will continue to tell my students to stay out of places they're not trained for, even when (especially when) someone says "trust me, everything will be fine."

flots.

dumpsterDiver

July 1st, 2012, 11:08 PM

.

So this offers a few ideas for assessing the risk of a proposed dive. If the overhead environment has complex ramifications (multiple navigations choices) you don't belong in there. That requires a guideline, and the ability to follow the guideline in the dark. If you can't do that, don't go in.

If the overhead environment has significant silt or other unstable sediment (or material on the walls or ceiling -- you don't have to have bottom sediments to blow the viz) then you require a guideline, and the ability to follow it in the dark. If you can't do that, you don't belong in there.

.

I find this advice of very little practical use. A typical recreational diver CAN follow a line in the dark very easily with a light. But you tell them if they can't do it, then they shouldn't be there?

A typical recreational diver can NOT follow a line in zero vis with no light. It just isn't gonna happen and I know this (and have zero overhead training)... my point is that a recreational diver may THINK they can follow a line, but in reality if something goes wrong.. there is almost zero chance they can....

I, after being an OW scuba instructor took my girl friend into a cave in florida with no line, no training and got completely lost in a tunnel with 100 ft visibility. I was absolutely sure I could deal with the conditions, knew about the dangers, knew the rules (more or less) and was certain both of us could handle it. I had done thousands of open water dives and she had done hundreds.

I was intending to go no further than I could just see a little light.... Luckily SHE did not get turned around and we were on our way out within a few moments... but is scared the hell out of me. It was a terrible feeling to be in the cave and have no idea which way to swim.. The fact that two divers died in the same cave a few hours later, while we hung out at the sight while the dead guy's wife (cluthing her little 4-yr old) begged for the bodies to be brought up ..helped to further emphasize the little lesson that I received that day.

Telling someone that they better THINK they can follow a line in the dark (or they won't be safe) is not practical advice.

I still go into overheads (in open wrecks) and in caverns just a little and I've never got any training but I am a lot more careful now.

If you are not going to go with the simple: "stay out of overheads"; then a better one might be: .. "if you have any thought that a line MIGHT be helpful", then defintely stay the hell out".

gypsyjim

July 1st, 2012, 11:08 PM

This is not the first discussion on SB about "trust me" dives where unqualified, or inexperienced divers are led into situations they have no training for, and are not safe diving.

It is really easy to agree that dives into overhead or overly deep (Blue hole off Belize, or some coz wall dives come to mind) should not be done by OW or untrained/inexperienced divers. Such divers should not just follow a DM/tour guide into such situations.
But new divers do it all the time.

DM's should not lead such divers into those dives.

But DM's do and will. because they earn their $$ by satisfying the visiting diver, and new or less experienced diver simply do not comprehend the risks they are being exposed to.

The question, after all this discussion, is how to you reach the new diver with this message, effectively? They sure are supposed to be learning in OW what their limits are, but once in the real world they put their trust in the local guide/DM and they want to see the sites that that areas is known for.

All our chatting and arguing here on SB is not reaching those divers in time. What can be done differently, and, more effectively?

ianr33

July 1st, 2012, 11:30 PM

All our chatting and arguing here on SB is not reaching those divers in time. What can be done differently, and, more effectively?

That's a good question.

A lot of new divers (especially young males!) are not going to make good decisions. Especially if a Dive professional tells them it's OK. If a DM took me on a dive I considered unsafe then I would just say no, but 20 years ago I would have just followed the DM

It's also obvious that every DM can not be trusted every time.

Which leaves the agencies. Who don't seem to care too much so long as they get paid.

Maybe if the insurance companies refused coverage on any shop that employed a DM that did something stupid (effectively putting the shop out of business,and the agency losing $$$) Then maybe agencies would insist that shops insist that DM don't take OW divers into caves.

I'm probably dreaming.

wtcreaux

July 1st, 2012, 11:40 PM

This is not the first discussion on SB about "trust me" dives where unqualified, or inexperienced divers are led into situations they have no training for, and are not safe diving.

........

The question, after all this discussion, is how to you reach the new diver with this message, effectively? They sure are supposed to be learning in OW what their limits are, but once in the real world they put their trust in the local guide/DM and they want to see the sites that that areas is known for.

All our chatting and arguing here on SB is not reaching those divers in time. What can be done differently, and, more effectively?

I think the SCUBA world will NEVER see a zero-death year.

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), 2010 traffic deaths fell to their lowest rate and number since 1949, 1.09 deaths per 100 million vehicle miles and 32,788 deaths respectively. Traffic Fatalities in 2010 Drop to Lowest Level in Recorded History | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) (http://www.nhtsa.gov/PR/NHTSA-05-11)

In 2009 (latest figures), 10,839 people were killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes, accounting for nearly one-third (32%) of all traffic-related deaths in the United States. (per CDC, CDC - Impaired Driving Facts - Motor Vehicle Safety - Injury Center (http://www.cdc.gov/MotorVehicleSafety/Impaired_Driving/impaired-drv_factsheet.html))

So.........we KNOW that drinking and driving ain't the smartest thing to be doing but people continue to do such and, for some, die.

This is human nature.....the ain't/won't happen to me syndrome.......the "don't know what you don't know" scenario.......the "trust me" scenario......"I've drove (dove) that way many times, and I'm still alive"........etc, etc, etc........

IMHO, ALL I can do is teach (informally as I am NOT a SCUBA instructor) those around me the best I can, constantly asking questions (knowledge-based and scenarios), demand strict adherence to protocol, and set an example (my daughter will ALWAYS see/hear me going through a pre-dive checklist or thumb a dive if needed).........YMMV.........I know some may disagree but the 1st rule of rescue is ???????;)

DevonDiver

July 2nd, 2012, 12:34 AM

IMHO, there are three reasons why divers exceed their qualifications and enter dangerous environments:

1) Peer Pressure
2) Ego
3) Denial

Peer Pressure - Coercion, whether positive or negative, direct or indirect, into carrying out a dive/s that the individual is not comfortable with and would otherwise not choose to do. This is especially likely when the 'coercer' holds a position of respect and authority; i.e. a dive pro.

Ego - The simple over-estimation of one's capabilities in relation to the demands of the task to be undertaken. "I can handle it".

Denial - The inverse of Ego, this is the under-estimation of the demands of the task to be undertaken, in relation to one's abilities. "What could possibly go wrong?" "It won't happen to me".

Often added to these three factors is the existence of ignorance. Put simply, a failure to appreciate and understand the risks; thus allowing ego or denial (or both) to manifest and cause poor decision making.. I won't list it as a 'reason', because one, or more, of the other factors has to exist for ignorance to contribute to a decision making process. If the other factors didn't exist, then ignorance would be resolved through education, or at least, a diver might err on the side of caution.

TSandM

July 2nd, 2012, 12:44 AM

graham_s

July 2nd, 2012, 12:58 AM

Haven't seen too many "clips" in a pistol....... magazines yes, clips no. Maybe you can enlighten me which pistols have clips, yes?
Mauser C96 (Broomhandle Mauser)
;)

I have done a few wreck penetrations and caves/tunnels.
Every time I've used a guide line reel.
Every member of the party was always briefed fully and there were plans and procedures in place.

gypsyjim

July 2nd, 2012, 08:47 AM

JamesK

July 2nd, 2012, 09:39 AM

NWGratefulDiver

July 2nd, 2012, 09:52 AM

JamesK

July 2nd, 2012, 09:55 AM

To me this is kinda like saying I can take my uncertified wife on many dives out in the open ocean where nothing would happen. Is it safe? Possibly. We could have dozens of dives without an issue. However, if an issue does happen and I have not trained her on how to handle that emergency, it's not going to be a happy ending. Untrained is untrained. You can get away with things for many moons, but the minute things go bad, they go REALLY bad.

Now, jmneill is a good guy. I have talked to him before. I can understand where he is coming from. I was that way myself. I am glad he is seeking the training, and one day I am sure we will enjoy some caverns together.

bowlofpetunias

July 2nd, 2012, 10:52 AM

Interesting comments and great food for thought. I would also add a question about entanglement risks. Every Overhead environment I have entered lol the massive number of 3 have been rock with zero possibility of silting, entanglement or getting lost. I have refused to enter anything where I felt there was the slightest risk of any of those.

Several people have commented that training is fairly cheap and readily available. That is certainly not the case in our area!

PfcAJ

July 2nd, 2012, 10:58 AM

I recall an incident some years ago where a diver lost their weightbelt in the Ginnie Ballroom and was subsequently pinned to the ceiling, panicked, and almost drowned.

There are more risks to diving overheads than just not being able to see.

wtcreaux

July 2nd, 2012, 12:36 PM

Mauser C96 (Broomhandle Mauser)
;)

.

OFF TOPIC

Graham_s.......thanks for the info...it does indeed........any others??

BACK ON TOPIC

TSandM

July 2nd, 2012, 01:01 PM

JamesK

July 2nd, 2012, 01:15 PM

Just for a little context:

http://www.tsandm.com/maui/people/0ec3dae0.jpg

http://www.tsandm.com/bvi/wrecks/10c07450.jpg

Could you get into trouble in either of those places? Yeah . . . but you can get into trouble in simple open water, if you're determined to do it.

The difference is that in OW you can go straight up. Go straight up in there by seeing that light and you might not make it through one of those holes.

dumpsterDiver

July 2nd, 2012, 06:03 PM

DD, I think you misread my post.

What I was trying to say was that if the place you're swimming into offers ANY possibility of severely reduced visibility, you need the skills to follow a guideline in low or zero viz, and open water divers don't have that skill. Therefore, if a guide proposes a swimthrough of a wreck or a swim into a lava tube, one of the questions should be, "What is the bottom composition, and is it possible to blow the viz?" If the answer isn't 100% sand, and no, the OW trained diver has no business in that place.

I know you are advocate for safety, but what you describe is more or less a trust me dive, even if the recreational open water divers is extremely experienced. I often take my son a ways back into an overhead on a wreck and have been doing it with him since he was 10. However, I know that the bottom is clean and the ceiling is scrubbed by enough bubbles by frequent divers that visibility should not be a problem and there is enough light to not need any lines.

But do you really expect an open water diver to ask these types of questions of another diver and even if he gets the right answers,, it is, by definition, a "trust-me" situation.

I would be much more comfortable telling open water divers to not go into deco for more than 5 minutes than to tell them to ask all these questions and then make a decsion if they still want to dive past their training and enter a cave or a wreck.

DevonDiver

July 2nd, 2012, 10:21 PM

But, what do we do with that conclusion?
I think a lot of us would agree, but it is reaching OW divers everywhere, and making that concept stick, or making it clear to DM's all over the globe that this is not acceptable practice, that we have no way to accomplish.

or, have yet to accomplish.

I don't see how DMs (and novice divers, for that matter) don't have access to the required guidance. Every open water students reads and signs a copy of 'Safe Diving Practices (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roatan.com%2Fforms%2FP ADI_standard.pdf)'... so it's right there, clearly presented, before they ever receive a c-card for diving. PADI have that, so do SSI... I'd guess most agencies do.

"Engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience. Do not engage in cave or technical diving unless specifically trained to do so."

It seems that some people can't accept advice - at least, not without a detailed explanation. I don't understand that way of thinking... and I see it as nothing more than ego. A sense of self-importance or superiority that leads people to disregard a prudent recommendation, until the grounds for that recommendation can be proven to them with detailed evidence.

For those people, nothing short of full-cave training will be sufficient to reinforce the validity of that basic open water recommendation. Until that time, if it happens, they'll disregard it - willful ignorance.That's why I wrote my earlier post - I don't believe it's a case of "getting the message out".... but rather, a case of "getting people to heed the message".

I see enough examples in real life and here on Scubaboard of people not heeding those messages... normally exhibiting one of the factors I already mentioned - often coupled with some 'sense of resistance' against the 'scuba police' i.e. they don't like being told what to do (even though, in truth, it's only advise or a recommendation).

Thus, I don't see it as a 'failure of education', but rather a failure of the individual to apply that education. I see that as a common problem that tends to raise its head in most avoidable scuba incidents.

Where I see an opportunity for improvement is in the agency over-sight and standards attached to divemasters supervising certified divers. At the moment there is none - save a retrospective sanction against them when someone's already died.

There is no scuba police - but agencies can, and should, be more pro-active in shaping the behavior and conduct of their authorized diver leaders. Standard of conduct and operation could/should be attached to 'supervising qualified divers', in the same way they are enforced for teaching activities. After all, any contact between a DM and a qualified diver IS a form of teaching (role-modelling, development of experience).

DMs should be held accountable - to their certifying agencies - for how they do their jobs. If that conduct breaks established 'Safe Diving Practice' recommendations, then the DM should be sanctioned.

ArcticDiver

July 2nd, 2012, 11:10 PM

The comments about training are, in my opinon, right on. But they don't go far enough. I was very fortunate that my training emphasized my responsibility to say "No" if I was being put in a situation in which I was uncomfortable. Over the years I have observed an almost blind obedience by divers to Instructors, Dive Masters, Dive Guides and others of similar position. In more than one case the situation was clearly dangerous and the divers were doing what amounted to Trust Me dives with no clear idea how to handle any of the several emergencies that could have happened.

By the way this applies to the entire dive, not just overhead environments.

Maybe a bit more emphasis on each diver's responsibility for themselves and their companions would go a long way to resolving this kind of an issue.

Racer_X

July 3rd, 2012, 09:49 PM

High-five for you! Clips vs mags is a pet peeve of mine. Good to see someone else on the proper nomenclature crusade!

A magazine is what I read. Never been able to fit a copy of Newsweek inside my pistol, nor seen a functioning pistol with a copy of People inside....

PfcAJ

July 3rd, 2012, 10:22 PM

When I was your age (I have no idea how old you are, that's just a thing people say), if I called a magazine a clip (or vice versa), I'd be doing pushups, wall sits, 'bows and toes', and/or log situps for a long, long time.

Racer_X

July 3rd, 2012, 10:51 PM

ArcticDiver

July 3rd, 2012, 10:55 PM

What in the world do the last three posts have to do with overhead environments?

Racer_X

July 3rd, 2012, 11:24 PM

Well, with the right ordnance added to your gear, it really wouldn't be a problem because you could make air holes as you go.

All kidding aside, you are correct, and we now return you to your thread. Sorry.

chrpai

July 3rd, 2012, 11:34 PM

Then I guess times have changed. When I did my rotations in the armory, I was far more concerned about the trainee's ability to service the weapon safely than waste limited instruction time doing remedial pt.

That's the beauty with a bunch of PFCs and LCPLs in the Marines. You can wake em up at 0 dark 30, pt their butts off and then hit their day job. Then hit it again late at night and send them back to bed. There's always enough hours in the day to accomplish everything and it doesn't cost you extra! :)

tstormdiver

July 4th, 2012, 12:01 AM

OK guys, don't you think it is time to get this thread back on track, its a pretty important topic.. It is not about nomenclature for firearms, we can start another thread on that, if you'd like. The gun thing only started when I compared OW divers going into overhead environment to playing Russian Roulette.

bowlofpetunias

July 4th, 2012, 06:32 AM

The thing is that we are talking about Guidelines and Recommendations of the dive industry not LAWS. We can't exactly sanction someone for not following them. Training agencies or sponsors my withdraw their support but as far as I know it is very difficult to withdraw a certificate or qualification once it has been awarded! People keep saying it is all about education and I think that is the goal of this thread!

Don't get me wrong..I am not advocating that people ignore those guidelines! We are talking about adults who make decisions all the time. Education, knowledge, training and experience give us the skills to make better decisions. I have entered overhead environments on a few occasions but not for any of the motivations or "reasons" that have been tossed about here.

We take a calculated risk every time we enter the water. My dives in overhead environments were a continuation of that. I spoke to a large number of people who had done the dives, saw pictures, knew what to expect, had my backup gear, knew my gear was in good working order, knew how much gas I would need. Basically I had a well thought out plan with lots of redundancy.

I can not justify a trip to another state to take an expensive course to dive a cave that has dozens of divers go through it pretty well every week, year round year after year! There have been thousands of people through that cave with no incidents. It meets all of Lyn's criteria with the exception of the 2M(6ft) chimney where two divers can't go side by side. There are no entanglement hazards.

I believe that having a sensible series of questions to ask to determine if a given overhead environment is appropriate for a given diver is a great way for people to make better decisions.

I find it interesting that people talk about "Trust me" dives when we do them all the time. Every time I commit to a dive that I haven't done before based on a dive brief given to me by someone else I am doing a trust me dive to some degree. All a matter of interpretation I guess.

gypsyjim

July 4th, 2012, 07:16 AM

Where does a simple trust me guiding, cross over into a much riskier, blind trust entry into a dive the diver should not be attempting yet?

And, how does the diving world reach the average, occasional diver, possibly on their once in a lifetime exotic dive, with this message about that difference ?

bowlofpetunias

July 4th, 2012, 07:31 AM

Perhaps that is the definitions we need to use.. Blind Trust Me dives or Trust me dives.

Jim, I think one of the ways we can reach them is by setting a good example. By asking questions that others might be too reluctant to ask. In many cases I ask questions for the other people diving with us when we are on our dive trips. If we talk to the other divers in a friendly way and find out their experience level we can teach them to ask the questions by asking the questions for them. When they see and hear experienced divers asking questions, questioning the DM or dive plan.. it shows them that it may not be appropriate to quietly listen to the dive brief and blindly follow the dive leader into the ocean! We can pass the message about Scuba Board and other forums. We need to be ambassadors for the well informed diving community!

I remember a dive where our group refused to enter the water at the dive site the Boat operator wanted us to dive. It was a washing machine, the (I would choke if I called him captain) boat operator had no idea about diving. There were some inexperienced divers on board who thanked us later for that refusal.. but non of them said a word on the boat. I hope they learned from it that they can and should say NO when appropriate!. We wound up diving a less interesting but much safer and protected site.

stairman

July 4th, 2012, 08:01 AM

A Cavern course will train you for overhead and make you a much better diver period. Heres a good example of how innocent exploration can go south in a hurry. You tube Rescue 911 episode 202 , parts 1 and 2. Take a damn cavern course please!

bowlofpetunias

July 4th, 2012, 09:32 AM

I have just searched every dive shop I could find in our area and as far as 8 hours drive from here. Not one of those shops offers a Cave or Cavern Diving Course. The two Dive shops that regularly take divers out to Fishrock Cave don't offer Cave or Cavern Courses either. If I wanted to take a Cave or Cavern Course the closest place that I know of where I could is in the next State and a 12 plus hour drive from here. With the exception of Fishrock and Looking Glass at Broughton Island there are no caves or caverns that I know of to dive in this state. I certainly can't justify the expense of the course, accommodation, travel and other expenses to take the course to dive these very low risk sites. In some locations it is just not possible or practical to take Cave or Cavern Courses.

I would rather apply Lynn's well thought out suggestions to determine if a given overhead environment is appropriate for me to enter.

LowDrag

July 4th, 2012, 09:55 AM

I think the idea of caving or wreck penetration is a cool idea but I also l know that at my current experience level I would not even consider doing either. We look at it like this, if we don't feel comfortable for either me or my wife to do something then we don't do it. Common sense should prevail in situations such as what Lynne posted but there are those that seem to have their common sense meter all mixed up.

stairman

July 4th, 2012, 07:08 PM

Cavern training is very common here but its Florida. I wouldnt justify a big expense for something I didnt do either.

bowlofpetunias

July 4th, 2012, 09:18 PM

When I was in Florida last year I couldn't get over the number of dive shops! Only place I've ever been where I saw more dive shops than McDonalds:doh: I enjoyed the diving but really had no interest in doing any of the caves. As for wreck penetration, well I am happy looking from the outside. I'm more interested in fish than wrecks. I've done a few but not in the slightest tempted to go inside. If there is a chance of entanglement or gettting trapped/lost I will stay clear.

LowDrag you are right about common sense altho I have been told "What is Common Sense to one isn't to another!" Even common sense requires some knowledge. I am more inclined to say fools rush in.. and fools can be very creative.. just check out the Darwin Awards:shakehead:

LowDrag

July 4th, 2012, 10:21 PM

DevonDiver

July 4th, 2012, 11:57 PM

I certainly can't justify the expense of the course, accommodation, travel and other expenses to take the course to dive these very low risk sites.

That's just what was said about the site that killed those four Italian divers.... just saying...

In some locations it is just not possible or practical to take Cave or Cavern Courses.

If it ain't worth the effort to travel for training, then the dive itself just isn't worth the effort.

Convenience isn't a factor that should be included in risk assessments.

bowlofpetunias

July 5th, 2012, 12:36 AM

Does anyone have a link to the info on this event that people keep referring to? I am not sure if we are comparing apples to oranges here:dontknow:

ktkt

July 5th, 2012, 01:00 AM

Does anyone have a link to the info on this event that people keep referring to? I am not sure if we are comparing apples to oranges here:dontknow:

Here's a link to the Accidents and Incidents thread:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/425341-four-dead-italian-cave.html

bowlofpetunias

July 5th, 2012, 02:06 AM

Here's a link to the Accidents and Incidents thread:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/425341-four-dead-italian-cave.html

Thanks for the link:flowers:
A quick read indicates that we are indeed comparing apples to oranges! The Italian dive was a Cave System. Looking Glass and Fishrock are splits in rock islands neither has any chance of silting. Looking Glass is not really overhead environment as the top of the cleft is above water all the way if my memory serves correctly (it has been a long time since I did a couple dives there). Light penetrates the entire cave. Impossible to get lost.

Fishrock has a deep entry via a Chimney opens into a huge cavern and thence to a huge opening at the shallow entry. Interestingly it was first discovered and explored by Breath hold divers! They found the chimney... went through and found the place where there was an air pocket where they got more breaths and explored from there. Later they found the shallow entrance (14M) and explored the cave using another air pocket when they started recognizing things they had found before they linked it together. IMHO they were crazy! There is an area about 50M long that light does not penetrate so lights and back up lights are required.

It seems to me that we are so short of caves here we call things caves that barely qualify... lol if you can stick your head under a ledge and it opens up it gets called a cave even if you can't fit swim all the way into it! I also checked and the dive shop that takes divers out to Looking Glass does not have Cave or Cavern courses on their list of available courses either!

It is environments like ours where true caves are rare, Cave Systems non existent and training courses unavailable where getting word out about some criteria such as Lynn is suggesting is vital! It isn't a matter of convenience so much as time and cost. I can not afford to take the time off work and pay several thousand dollars to qualify myself to do a type of diving I have no intention of pursuing. I can however apply Lynn's criteria and my own additions of no entanglement hazards to any potential dive site. I will not be bullied or embarrassed into doing a dive I am not comfortable with. I spoke to 20 or more other divers who had dived Fishrock and got experience diving before I did it the first time. In all honesty most of the times we go there I just play around at the shallow entrance in the light penetration Zone getting shots there. I just don't see the point in going into the dark area where you can't really see much anyway!

When we have people ask us about Fishrock I try to give them a VERY clear idea of exactly what they can expect. I make sure they have had a chance to look at the readily available map of the cave before they consider it. I also make it clear that we are happy to dive near the entries and not penetrate if they prefer not to enter. There is a lot to see without going into the cave anyway.

NWGratefulDiver

July 5th, 2012, 06:50 AM

Think of a cave, in its simplest terms, as something that requires a navigational decision ... which way am I supposed to turn? If you make the wrong decision you may run out of air before you can correct your mistake and find your way out. People most often die in caves because they went the wrong way.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

stairman

July 5th, 2012, 08:05 AM

I dont know why a line wasent run with line arrows pointing out for this group that got lost. Also encouraging them to frogkick thru instead of openwater flutter would have helped save the viz. Even without lights line following is a no brainer. Diving is common sense but when the SHTF, often our train of thought isnt so clear. Practiced what-ifs for one failure or another is important so they become more automatic. Penetrating with 1/3rd of their starting gas, and 2/3rds for the exit may have given them the time they needed to find their way out but again , not having a continuous line to openwater was their demise and a neglegence lawsuit should be headed their way.

Diesel00

July 5th, 2012, 08:16 AM

NWGratefulDiver

July 5th, 2012, 09:01 AM

Diving in a cave with overhead rock and possibly having to wiggle myself through a small opening is not my idea of having fun. I will just stay out of these situations. If I really want to see I can watch videos and look at pictures. So the divers that love cave diving have fun and be safe.

I used to say the same thing ... but I discovered that my idea of fun changed over time. Key thing is, don't just jump into something new and assume you know how it is ... if you want to try something new, learn about it and if it needs specific training, get the training. Doing it that way tends to expand your definition of fun ..

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

tstormdiver

July 5th, 2012, 04:26 PM

Cavern training is very common here but its Florida. I wouldnt justify a big expense for something I didnt do either.

When I took my cavern/ overhead course, I took it in our local quarry. Of course it was known I was going to continue on in my training. I had no problems transitioning from what we did in the quarry to the real thing in FL. We used the wrecks there as actual overhead & used the rocks & blacked out masks to work on line skills. In KY there isn't much in the way of underwater caves. If someone want to do the training bad enough, they will find a way.

Qnape

July 5th, 2012, 08:55 PM

For me it comes down to what I'd tell my daughter. OW divers do not belong anywhere there is overhead. That includes swim throughs, ginnie cavern, cenotes, wrecks...all of it. It's a very simple answer but the one that I would like her to follow until she is trained appropriately.

My daughter was 15 and a pretty new diver with perhaps 50 dives when we first passed by the cenotes driving down the highway from Cancun. She wanted to take one of the guided tours and see what everyone told her was so special. I said sure, lets do it, but next year - and we'll take a full cavern course so we can do it safely. She was not pleased - but waited. We took the course with the best instructor we could find, and worked hard for it. Aside from anything else, it made us better divers in a lot of ways - and we then went back to enjoy the caverns for a week the following year. If you want it badly enough, you can find a way; we did from NJ.

I had obvious parental concerns helping to drive me - She is 18 now and on her way to college to meet new dive buddies, and sooner or later, I knew she was going into those caverns. I knew she should be trained first, our instructors told us we should be trained first, and I am sure she also knew. I know that I NEEDED her to be trained first - a compusive parental imerative. One way or the other, maybe vacationing with friends in a few years or whenever, she would enter those caverns with or without training. Where else might she then dive without appropriate training?

Her friends told her she didn't need the training for cenote tours. Dive ops told her "no problem - no special training needed". Our cavern instructor changed her mind.

Where does a simple trust me guiding, cross over into a much riskier, blind trust entry into a dive the diver should not be attempting yet?

And, how does the diving world reach the average, occasional diver, possibly on their once in a lifetime exotic dive, with this message about that difference ?.

This is the crux of the problem as I see it as well. Divers are taught to seek advice and / a local guide to help them when they are in unfamiliar waters. We are trained to seek out and trust the advice of the local guide. It is easy to slide down the slope and be led into conditions in which we don't belong. Most will know on some level that they should not be there, few will turn around and say "not me".

As long as local guides and dive ops actively promote dives that knowingly lead divers beyond their training, they will find willing customers - unfortunately.

I just don't see how to reach divers en masse to get them to resist dives they are not trained for but are being told by local guides and in some cases others are just fine, "OW safe" whatever. In some ways, the truly effective lengths to which the cenote guides have gone to make the dives safer for OW divers creates confusion - it's OK here but not there? Trying to get any message across is a never ending task because by definition it will mostly be newer divers who are most susceptable to peer pressure and other factors that help lead them to dive outside their training. And most of them won't have daughters diving with them, and a wife behind them asking - "you're taking her where???"

Thank you for this thread, I hope newer divers take the time to consider what they might not know yet, and if it helps even one decide not to go on that wreck penetration dive for OW divers or safely escorted cave tour, fantastic. It won't reach them all.

shoredivr

July 6th, 2012, 12:40 AM

I can not justify a trip to another state to take an expensive course to dive a cave that has dozens of divers go through it pretty well every week, year round year after year!

double post

clownfishsydney

July 6th, 2012, 07:22 AM

Hate to say it, but most of you should never travel to Chuuk or the Solomon Islands or Vanuatu, or Papua New Guinea or Philippines or other locations with WWII shipwrecks as all are overhead environments. You should also never dive Fish Rock in Australia, Cathedral Caves in Tasmania (Australia), the scuttled warships all over the world, many of the dives in Sydney Australia, Palau and Guam which have tunnels and swim-throughs.

Of the 3,290 dives I have done to date, I estimate that probably 1,500 or more have involved overhead environments of some sort. I do not have cave diving certifications or anything similar. Get real, there are hundreds of "overhead" dives that are perfectly safe.

What is a problem are experienced divers doing dives beyond their ability and dive masters and instructors who are totally experienced and should not be leading divers. I have never heard of any accident like this where the person leading the dive is experienced.

Also, for those talking up Sheck
Exley, remember, he died scuba diving when he made a mistake. I would not hold him out to be a person to look up to about how to dive correctly.

stairman

July 6th, 2012, 07:43 AM

jmneill

July 6th, 2012, 08:42 AM

He was a pioneer in the sport of cave diving and got hung up on bottomless blue holes that did get a bit crazy but its what he wanted to do with his life and that makes it his buisness.

Doesn't it always boil down to that?

NWGratefulDiver

July 6th, 2012, 08:52 AM

Doesn't it always boil down to that?

No ... it doesn't. Sheck based his decisions on his own knowledge and experience ... and understood quite well the risks he was taking.

There's a big difference between that and someone who follows a dive guide into an unknown environment, trusting that the guide will keep them safe. Unfortunately, guides are human and sometimes make mistakes. In that case, it behooves you to have the skills needed to keep yourself out of trouble.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

nimoh

July 6th, 2012, 09:08 AM

The problem for the untrained cave diver is that you don't know what you don't know and training will reduce what you don't know.

I'll admit that I went on a cave dive in Dos Ojos untrained, and although I don't regret it, my next cave dive will be as a trained cave diver, probably a year or so from now.

jmneill

July 6th, 2012, 09:38 AM

No ... it doesn't. Sheck based his decisions on his own knowledge and experience ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well, his knowledge, or lack thereof apparently killed him. Or as they like to say on SB, he dove beyond his training.

---------- Post Merged at 09:38 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:16 AM ----------

The problem for the untrained cave diver is that you don't know what you don't know and training will reduce what you don't know.

I'll admit that I went on a cave dive in Dos Ojos untrained, and although I don't regret it, my next cave dive will be as a trained cave diver, probably a year or so from now.

Since signing onto scubaboard I have heard the "you don't know what you don't know" cliche more times than I can count. But even without knowing what I don't know, I still know that as I enter the tunnel and look over my shoulder at the light disappearing behind me that things are indeed becoming less safe whether I am following a guide or not.

Bob DBF

July 6th, 2012, 09:41 AM

Also, for those talking up Sheck Exley, remember, he died scuba diving when he made a mistake.

In this "safe" hobbie of SCUBA diving, we are all one mistake away from our end as well.

No ... it doesn't. Sheck based his decisions on his own knowledge and experience ... and understood quite well the risks he was taking.

There's a big difference between that and someone who follows a dive guide into an unknown environment, trusting that the guide will keep them safe. Unfortunately, guides are human and sometimes make mistakes. In that case, it behooves you to have the skills needed to keep yourself out of trouble.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I decided a long time ago, when SCUBA was not safe, that I would rather meet my end through my own mistakes not those of others, they might be making decisions even dumber than mine.

Sheck Exley did not die following a minimum wage DM into a cave that none present were certified to do. He took a well calculated risk and died on his quest, I might disagree with his quest, but it is his choice not mine.

Bob
----------------------------------------
"Science progresses one funeral at a time." -- Max Planck

A man's got to know his limitations.
Harry Callahan

Dive Bug Bit Me

July 6th, 2012, 10:22 AM

In this "safe" hobbie of SCUBA diving, we are all one mistake away from our end as well.

Thing is in open water diving there are many mistakes from which you can recover quite easily. Those same mistakes in a cave will kill you.

Sometimes Sheck just got lucky. His skill was realising this and adjusting his plan and equipment so that he would not need to get lucky in the same situation a second time.
In the end, even his luck ran out.

shoredivr

July 6th, 2012, 10:35 AM

I can not justify a trip to another state to take an expensive course to dive a cave that has dozens of divers go through it pretty well every week, year round year after year! There have been thousands of people through that cave with no incidents. It meets all of Lyn's criteria with the exception of the 2M(6ft) chimney where two divers can't go side by side. There are no entanglement hazards.

I believe that having a sensible series of questions to ask to determine if a given overhead environment is appropriate for a given diver is a great way for people to make better decisions.

I find it interesting that people talk about "Trust me" dives when we do them all the time. Every time I commit to a dive that I haven't done before based on a dive brief given to me by someone else I am doing a trust me dive to some degree. All a matter of interpretation I guess.

Your last paragraph is spot on.

In terms of cavern diving, is there a wreck penetration course near to you? Not exactly the same, but enough similar skills that the knowledge might be useful.

NWGratefulDiver

July 6th, 2012, 11:14 AM

Well, his knowledge, or lack thereof apparently killed him.

No ... it did not. And I'm not going to waste my time engaging in a conversation about it.

It's like comparing a Green Beret to a bunch of children playing with a gun ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

jmneill

July 6th, 2012, 11:21 AM

No ... it did not. And I'm not going to waste my time engaging in a conversation about it.

It's like comparing a Green Beret to a bunch of children playing with a gun ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Come on Bob, you seem like the loquatious type. Don't just do a drive by slamming all my posts, pull over and enlighten me.
And I assume you mean a Green Beret who has accidently blown his head off with his own M-4?

Paladin

July 6th, 2012, 11:39 AM

I pulled this one over from another thread I posted on:

It happened in the summer of 1978. The equipment consisted of a Healthways steel 72, Aqua-Lung Aquarius reg, White Stag Deep SPG, USD Atlantis mask, USD Otarie fins, 5 pounds on a USD weight belt, USD diver's knife. I had just bought the Aquarius and this was my first dive with a single hose reg.

One year, when I was just a kid, my family went to Tennessee for vacation. While we were there, we visited Tuckaleechee (sp?) Caverns. From that time on, I was fascinated by caves. By the time I reached my early twenties, I had spent thousands of hours exploring underground and crawling through some pretty tight places. I even became a member of the Tri-State Search and Rescue Team, specializing in cave rescue.

So, when my friend and I discovered a cave in the rock wall of a man-made lake where we were diving (I'm not going to say where because I don't want to tempt anyone), we decided to check it out.

Yeah, I know. We were young and stupid. I should've known better.

Anyway, Fuzz led the way and I followed him into the cave. The passage was tight and Fuzz kicked up the sediment to the point where I couldn't see squat. I groped along behind him, hands out in front, trying to keep up. Then, I suddenly found myself in clear water and Fuzz was nowhere in sight. I switched off my light to see if I could detect his light. Nada. Black as Hades. At that moment, I felt my tank grate against the ceiling for an instant, then come free.

I realized that I must have taken a side passage and was separated from Fuzz. I started to back out, but couldn't. I was stuck. My tank was lodged in a depression in the ceiling and I couldn't move. My first thought was to simply unbuckle my harness and slip out from under the tank, then pull it out of the cave after me, but the passage was too tight and I couldn't get my hand down to my waist to release the buckle. I thought about cutting the harness away at the shoulders but my knife was strapped to my leg, out reach.

Out of options, all I could do was watch the needle of my SPG as my air slowly ran out. I thought about my parents and my girlfriend. I thought about how stupid I was and I wondered how long it would be before someone found my body.

At 500 psi, it became more difficult to breathe. At 300 psi, my J valve would cut off and I couldn't reach the rod to turn on the reserve. Panic was about to set in when I felt something moving along my left leg. It moved up to my waist and I felt a tug at my harness buckle. Then, something grabbed my ankles and yanked me backward and free. I pulled my tank after me and followed Fuzz back out to open water. On the way, I had to open the reserve.

I haven't tried cave diving since.

PfcAJ

July 6th, 2012, 11:41 AM

there are hundreds of "overhead" dives that are perfectly safe.

Don't confuse 'safe' and 'without incident'. They are not the same. Plenty of people drive without seatbelts and don't get hurt. That doesn't make it safe.

NWGratefulDiver

July 6th, 2012, 12:55 PM

Come on Bob, you seem like the loquatious type. Don't just do a drive by slamming all my posts, pull over and enlighten me.
And I assume you mean a Green Beret who has accidently blown his head off with his own M-4?

In order to be enlightened, you'd have to know a little more about what happened, and why, than you apparently do. There's several good books out there on the subject.

Comparing Exley's to that of vacation divers who wander into caves is ridiculous ... and a waste of my time to even attempt to explain why.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

ianr33

July 6th, 2012, 01:59 PM

Well, his knowledge, or lack thereof apparently killed him. Or as they like to say on SB, he dove beyond his training.

I fancy doing some 900 foot deep cave dives. Don't want to go beyond my training though. What course(s) do I need to do?

jmneill

July 6th, 2012, 02:49 PM

In order to be enlightened, you'd have to know a little more about what happened, and why, than you apparently do. There's several good books out there on the subject.

Comparing Exley's to that of vacation divers who wander into caves is ridiculous ... and a waste of my time to even attempt to explain why.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

You are correct, the average vacation diver on a follow me dive is a lot safer than Exley was on any of his dives of notoriety. Apparently he was an incredible guy who did unprecidented things and to no surprise wound up dead. No explaination needed.

---------- Post Merged at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 02:45 PM ----------

I fancy doing some 900 foot deep cave dives. Don't want to go beyond my training though. What course(s) do I need to do?

For you sir I reccommend nothing less than PADI AOW, an AL80 with backup 2CF Spare air. You will need to descend quickly.

PfcAJ

July 6th, 2012, 02:50 PM

youve really got it figured out. you must be basing all this on your vast amount of deep cave experience.

stairman

July 6th, 2012, 04:06 PM

Had Sheck lived thru his deep air endeavors, his contibutions would be unsurpassed.

ianr33

July 6th, 2012, 05:05 PM

Had Sheck lived thru his deep air endeavors, his contibutions would be unsurpassed.

I don't understand this. He was breathing trimix when he died.

http://www.iucrr.org/aa_misc.htm (scroll down a bit)

jmneill

July 6th, 2012, 05:38 PM

Pb
youve really got it figured out. you must be basing all this on your vast amount of deep cave experience.

I don't recall mentioning anything about caves.

Dive Bug Bit Me

July 6th, 2012, 05:57 PM

I fancy doing some 900 foot deep cave dives. Don't want to go beyond my training though. What course(s) do I need to do?

A number of commercial divers go to these depths. Can't say I've ever enquired, but I would certainly reach out to their schools and experienced divers as a starting point. Also making sure your life insurance covers this would be wise.

jmneill

July 6th, 2012, 06:06 PM

I don't understand this. He was breathing trimix when he died.

A/C N10 - Incident Reports (http://www.iucrr.org/aa_misc.htm) (scroll down a bit)

Echoes of the David Shaw story.

NWGratefulDiver

July 6th, 2012, 06:17 PM

Echoes of the David Shaw story.

In both cases the divers were on trimix. HPNS is the most likely culprit ... that and CO2 from exertion they hadn't planned on. In Shaw's case in particular ... since it was evident in the video.

Oh, and Shaw would've been the echo, since he died 10 years after Exley did ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

mathauck0814

July 6th, 2012, 06:20 PM

Only read about the first three pages of posts...

It's all about awareness - or the complete lack thereof. How many newly minted divers believe they have good buoyancy skills (all the while are bicycle kicking and stirring up the bottom)? Most new or old, infrequent divers are tunnel visioned, staring at the fins of the diver in front of them between intermittent distractions of, "oh look - something shiny!" Expecting these same divers to be aware of a #28 guideline or the composition of bottom material is likely unrealistic. In fact, I'd say that expecting them to know that they've entered an overhead (especially one with a large opening) ahead of time is probably asking too much in some circumstances (the arch at San Clemente island comes to mind).

Not allowing lights is a good start - but that requires enforcement. If enforcement were a reasonable option, we could enforce the "no overheads without training" rule. Unfortunately this message necessarily belongs in basic training and dive briefings.

I am happy to say that in the last year, I have heard more and more operators state, "there is feature X on this dive - please do not go there if you are not trained and equipped to do so". That's a step in the right direction, but you're never going to be able to weed out 100% of the vacation divers who truly believe that there just isn't all that much to safely doing this sport.

You can solve some of the problem with education - be it in training or on a briefing - but so long as divers are sentient, there are going to be those who lack the awareness they can get hurt.

boulderjohn

July 6th, 2012, 06:26 PM

Oh, and Shaw would've been the echo, since he died 10 years after Exley did ...

IMO, Shaw's death was a result of an error in judgment formed during the pre-dive planning. He made a fundamental mistake that almost any trained cave diver I know would not have made, and he could not blame it on narcosis. If he had not let his light dangle to the cave floor while working, he would not have become entangled and would not have had to struggle to free himself. A mistake like that is baffling, since the error seems so obvious in post-dive analysis.

It is the kind of mistake an untrained diver would make, which is why people talk about the importance of training.

rakpix

July 6th, 2012, 07:15 PM

Looking back through my logbook - and with the benefit of recent cave experience - I'm forced to admit I entered 'overhead' environments without 'overhead' training many times early in my career. Whether it was my first wreck dive (5/31/2010) or a coral swimthrough (6/1/2010), a flooded mine (8/8/2010) or an abandoned boat dock (1/23/2011) there were two things in common among all these experiences:

1) For a period of time during the dive, I did NOT have direct vertical access to the atmosphere.
2) At NO POINT during the dive, did I feel afraid, anxious, or really at all cognizant of the risks I had taken.

I am still shaken by my ignorance, and the consequences the overhead environment can mett out on overconfident divers like myself. However, it is important to remember that cave-trained divers still face these same challenges. We are just as susceptible to human flaws and temptation. It is, in fact, more important for the cave-trained diver to always step back and reassess their dive plan, and ask themselves one simple question:

"I am being honest about the risks I will assume if I complete this dive?"

This is the strongest argument I can pose in favor of team-only diving. It is so easy for a diver to lie to themself about the risks in diving and the consequences of those risks; to rationalize their choices ignoring every tennent of their training. It is another thing entirely for a diver to lie about those risks to their buddy, selfishly jeopardizing the team's safety for one more thrill.

stairman

July 6th, 2012, 07:28 PM

I don't understand this. He was breathing trimix when he died.

A/C N10 - Incident Reports (http://www.iucrr.org/aa_misc.htm) (scroll down a bit) I realize that but at depths not yet recorded. That is a pioneer. A dead one but nonetheless.

---------- Post Merged at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:28 PM ----------

I don't understand this. He was breathing trimix when he died.

http://www.iucrr.org/aa_misc.htm (scroll down a bit) I realize that but at depths not yet recorded. That is a pioneer. A dead one but nonetheless.

NWGratefulDiver

July 6th, 2012, 07:34 PM

IMO, Shaw's death was a result of an error in judgment formed during the pre-dive planning. He made a fundamental mistake that almost any trained cave diver I know would not have made, and he could not blame it on narcosis. If he had not let his light dangle to the cave floor while working, he would not have become entangled and would not have had to struggle to free himself. A mistake like that is baffling, since the error seems so obvious in post-dive analysis.

It is the kind of mistake an untrained diver would make, which is why people talk about the importance of training.

Actually that mistake was the result of another, in hindsight, error (one of several ... which are easy to see when looking back from the comfort of a keyboard). The reason for the light mistake is that Shaw took an unfamiliar piece of equipment on the dive with him ... a helmet cam ... to video the recovery. Another mistake that compounded the problem was that there was never a contingency plan for what he would do if Deon's body became buoyant ... which it did. At that point, Shaw needed to use two hands. Previous to this dive, he was used to looping the light cord behind his head, so the light would hang down beside his chest. The helmet cam prevented this. He'd already overstayed the plan, and was hurrying, building up CO2 due to the exertion. You can hear the results in the video. Narcosis, HPNS, CO2, and a timetable he'd already exceeded ... all contributing to a narrowing of perception and a focus on the "problem" of getting Deon's body in the bag. He didn't have the bandwidth to think about what to do with the light ... so he dropped it.

Error in judgment, true ... but the error, really, was not giving up when he realized Deon's body wasn't going to sit quietly on the bottom so he could put the bag in place the way he'd planned. Everything that happened after that just led him to a state he was physiologically unable to cope with. The light was just the last link in the chain ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

JamesK

July 6th, 2012, 08:44 PM

Well, his knowledge, or lack thereof apparently killed him. Or as they like to say on SB, he dove beyond his training.

Big difference in not having the knowledge because no one has ever done it before, and not having the knowledge because someone refusing to learn from the mistakes made by others who have done it.

I pulled this one over from another thread I posted on:

It happened in the summer of 1978. The equipment consisted of a Healthways steel 72, Aqua-Lung Aquarius reg, White Stag Deep SPG, USD Atlantis mask, USD Otarie fins, 5 pounds on a USD weight belt, USD diver's knife. I had just bought the Aquarius and this was my first dive with a single hose reg.

One year, when I was just a kid, my family went to Tennessee for vacation. While we were there, we visited Tuckaleechee (sp?) Caverns. From that time on, I was fascinated by caves. By the time I reached my early twenties, I had spent thousands of hours exploring underground and crawling through some pretty tight places. I even became a member of the Tri-State Search and Rescue Team, specializing in cave rescue.

So, when my friend and I discovered a cave in the rock wall of a man-made lake where we were diving (I'm not going to say where because I don't want to tempt anyone), we decided to check it out.

Yeah, I know. We were young and stupid. I should've known better.

Anyway, Fuzz led the way and I followed him into the cave. The passage was tight and Fuzz kicked up the sediment to the point where I couldn't see squat. I groped along behind him, hands out in front, trying to keep up. Then, I suddenly found myself in clear water and Fuzz was nowhere in sight. I switched off my light to see if I could detect his light. Nada. Black as Hades. At that moment, I felt my tank grate against the ceiling for an instant, then come free.

I realized that I must have taken a side passage and was separated from Fuzz. I started to back out, but couldn't. I was stuck. My tank was lodged in a depression in the ceiling and I couldn't move. My first thought was to simply unbuckle my harness and slip out from under the tank, then pull it out of the cave after me, but the passage was too tight and I couldn't get my hand down to my waist to release the buckle. I thought about cutting the harness away at the shoulders but my knife was strapped to my leg, out reach.

Out of options, all I could do was watch the needle of my SPG as my air slowly ran out. I thought about my parents and my girlfriend. I thought about how stupid I was and I wondered how long it would be before someone found my body.

At 500 psi, it became more difficult to breathe. At 300 psi, my J valve would cut off and I couldn't reach the rod to turn on the reserve. Panic was about to set in when I felt something moving along my left leg. It moved up to my waist and I felt a tug at my harness buckle. Then, something grabbed my ankles and yanked me backward and free. I pulled my tank after me and followed Fuzz back out to open water. On the way, I had to open the reserve.

I haven't tried cave diving since.

Scary story there. I still remember the first time I got wedged in somewhere and the first time I was in a silt out in an unlined side tunnel. Both were pretty sobering experiences, but I am glad I was able to make it out without panicking.

jmneill

July 6th, 2012, 08:59 PM

Actually that mistake was the result of another, in hindsight, error (one of several ... which are easy to see when looking back from the comfort of a keyboard). The reason for the light mistake is that Shaw took an unfamiliar piece of equipment on the dive with him ... a helmet cam ... to video the recovery. Another mistake that compounded the problem was that there was never a contingency plan for what he would do if Deon's body became buoyant ... which it did. At that point, Shaw needed to use two hands. Previous to this dive, he was used to looping the light cord behind his head, so the light would hang down beside his chest. The helmet cam prevented this. He'd already overstayed the plan, and was hurrying, building up CO2 due to the exertion. You can hear the results in the video. Narcosis, HPNS, CO2, and a timetable he'd already exceeded ... all contributing to a narrowing of perception and a focus on the "problem" of getting Deon's body in the bag. He didn't have the bandwidth to think about what to do with the light ... so he dropped it.

Error in judgment, true ... but the error, really, was not giving up when he realized Deon's body wasn't going to sit quietly on the bottom so he could put the bag in place the way he'd planned. Everything that happened after that just led him to a state he was physiologically unable to cope with. The light was just the last link in the chain ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well said Bob. You and I have some varying opinions and seem to often see things from totally different angles but this post really nails it. Breaks a ten minute video down to the bare facts in a well spoken thirty second read.

---------- Post Merged at 08:59 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 08:46 PM ----------

[QUOTE=JamesK;6403008]Big difference in not having the knowledge because no one has ever done it before, and not having the knowledge because someone refusing to learn from the mistakes made by others who have done it.

I understand entirely. The post you reference was a result of pent up frustration. James, you are aware of my opinion on this type of thing. As far as I'm concerned the president should have been at his funeral. Currently as an OW diver I would just like to be able to take certain overhead risks without the scrutiny I often see on this board. That said, as soon as the Suwannee river recedes I will be on a three day cavern course and will post on the experience for the very few scubaboard members who haven't already taken it. I've got a real good instructor and am looking forward to whatever can be taught and retained in three days. Yes, one extra day over the minimum :)

grandizer52

July 6th, 2012, 09:00 PM

you guys ever seen new divers grab gear for a "BUDDY" (the new guy thinking he's instructor lever) and do stuff like this? either take them deep, or hea...it's only a little cave...

FPDocMatt

July 6th, 2012, 09:10 PM

Here in Cozumel (Cozumel Invasion, Hotel Cozumel) we went on several "swim-throughs". A couple of them were rather long (about 50 feet I'd guess), with no way to the surface along them (Palancar Caves and Santa Rosa Wall). There were 2 places where no light was visible, though these were only for about an 8-foot stretch on one and a 4-foot stretch on another. Where there was light, it came from openings in the ceiling, but in most cases these openings were too small to fit through.

It may be that I was not qualified to enter these swim-throughs. I don't know. I have open water, advanced open water, rescue and nitrox certification. At the beginning of the week I had 22 dives, now 35.

But whether I was qualified or not, I felt perfectly safe on these swim-throughs, and would not have traded the experience of them for anything.

There was lots of sand on the floor of these swim-throughs, which could have certainly been stirred up if anyone in front of me had been careless with finning. In some cases, there were 2 paths that could be taken.

One other thing: The guidelines presented by TSandM in the OP are great guidelines, but in most cases you don't know ahead of time what's inside the overhead environment. You're just following a DM on a guided dive. I can imaging stopping the DM on the boat and asking, "Are there swim-throughs? If so, what are they like? Do they have multiple paths? Do they have sandy bottoms? How long are they"? I guess that would work. But more commonly you're going to be on a guided dive without any prior discussion of swim-throughs, and the DM goes into one without prior discussion. Then what do you do? Get out your slate and write, "TSandM told me I shouldn't follow you." Yeah right.

Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I'd been on some really scary swim-throughs.

On the other hand, I had the utmost confidence in my DM on this trip. After reading here about some less-than-conscientious DM's, I wouldn't want to enter any overhead environment with that kind of DM.

JamesK

July 6th, 2012, 09:26 PM

I understand entirely. The post you reference was a result of pent up frustration. James, you are aware of my opinion on this type of thing. As far as I'm concerned the president should have been at his funeral. Currently as an OW diver I would just like to be able to take certain overhead risks without the scrutiny I often see on this board. That said, as soon as the Suwannee river recedes I will be on a three day cavern course and will post on the experience for the very few scubaboard members who haven't already taken it. I've got a real good instructor and am looking forward to whatever can be taught and retained in three days. Yes, one extra day over the minimum :)

I can understand frustration. You also know my view on this. I am very glad you are going to get the training and can't wait to hear/read about your course. You are always going to have scrutiny from people when they think you are doing something unsafe be it overheads, deep air, or split fins. ;) Just look at it as people who are concerned.

---------- Post Merged at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:14 PM ----------

Replies in RED

I can imaging stopping the DM on the boat and asking, "Are there swim-throughs? If so, what are they like? Do they have multiple paths? Do they have sandy bottoms? How long are they"? I guess that would work. It would work. That is exactly what you should do IMO. Talk to the DM about the dive more, and ask questions regarding it. I never jump in the water somewhere without a thorough understanding of what we are doing if I have a person there who has that info. Of course it is different if no one has been there before. But more commonly you're going to be on a guided dive without any prior discussion of swim-throughs, and the DM goes into one without prior discussion. Then what do you do? Get out your slate and write, "TSandM told me I shouldn't follow you." Yeah right. Hell, I would do that if I did not feel comfortable. Of course a good Q&A before the dive could alleviate that uncomfortable and quite humorous situation.

Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I'd been on some really scary swim-throughs.
What is mundane to you, is a down right panic fest to others. To me if a DM does not mention swim throughs BEFORE any one gets in the water and asks who is not comfortable with it and make an alternate plan for those people, then he has no business being a DM.

On the other hand, I had the utmost confidence in my DM on this trip. After reading here about some less-than-conscientious DM's, I wouldn't want to enter any overhead environment with that kind of DM. I am glad you had the confidence in your DM. However, your last statement is what worries me to some point depending on how you mean it. To me it sounds like you are placing to much of your fate in a DM hands.

ktkt

July 6th, 2012, 10:17 PM

What is mundane to you, is a down right panic fest to others. To me if a DM does not mention swim throughs BEFORE any one gets in the water and asks who is not comfortable with it and make an alternate plan for those people, then he has no business being a DM.

Exactly, and divers should speak up when surprises like this are thrown their way.

Of course, I've been lucky and only had good DM's so far. They have discussed the swimthroughs in briefing, pointed out the alternatives (so far, swimming around has always been an option). When I was a much newer diver, my guide stopped before each one to give me a minute to check it out and then signaled to ask if I wanted to go through or around.

My very first swimthrough, I swear, was only 6-8 feet long, if that. It was more of a tiny arch. But I really did stop and look at it for what seemed like ages before going through (probably only a minute in retrospect). I looked to make sure I could see the other end. It was pretty narrow, so I checked for any spooky fish hiding out. My buoyancy was not as good as it is now, so I hovered to make sure my tank was going to clear the top. And so on. Now I have better control and a lot more experience, so I do this mental check quicker, but I still do the check before any swimthrough. I love swimthroughs, but it's important for me to make the decision whether to take one or not EVERY time. I also usually prefer to go last, even if there's a risk of some sand being stirred up, as I really don't like feeling crowded in by someone behind me. I want direct access to a known exit, without anybody blocking me in.

bowlofpetunias

July 6th, 2012, 10:58 PM

Matt yes you should be questioning the DM before the dive. Any good dive brief IMHO includes a sincerely meant invitation for questions from the divers. If the DM does not downright encourage people to ask questions I would personally question their skills.... NOBODY is such a good communicator that they can explain a dive so well that they cover every area of concern to every potential participant. I want to know about DEPTH, CURRENT, OVERHEAD, ENTANGLEMENT risks, TOPOGRAPHY, TEMPERATURE, LIKELY VIZ, EXPECTED BOTTOM TIME, TURN and RESERVE PRESSURES and anything else that seems appropriate to know for the proposed dive. Of course the information I will require will depend on the site ie known or unknown to me &/or my buddy. If there is anybody doing the dive who doesn't seem to have much experience I will make a point of asking more questions knowing they may not be comfortable asking in hopes they learn from example that they can and should ask questions.

We can talk about training until the cows come home but what that training translates to in skill sets and knowledge is going to vary from one participant to the next. I have no respect for a DM who assumes skill sets based on Certificates or someone's personal self assessment. Skill in the water, the right attitude and tendency to panic or stay cool in hot situations are the keys IMHO. I have seen instructors I wouldn't buddy with in a pink fit and OW divers I would trust my life to (which in many cases is what you are doing when you buddy with someone).

Someone asked earlier if there was a wreck penetration course available in my area since cave and cavern are not. To tell the truth I haven't checked but I suspect it would be possible. I won't be laying out $600 or so for the course tho. I have no intention of diving caves and certainly not penetrating wrecks, just doesn't interest me. I am quite capable of saying NO to situations that are beyond my skill set. I like Lynn's suggested guidelines and as I said before anything with entanglement potential is a no brainer for me.

I have gone through swim throughs and Fishrock because I had a lot of information and was comfortable that the dive was within my skill set. I have refused to follow DM's through some areas because I was not confident with the information and my competence to handle it. I will err on the side of caution not blindly follow like sheep to the slaughter!

FPDocMatt

July 7th, 2012, 02:35 AM

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/images_sb/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Matt Beckwith http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/images_sb/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/425380-overhead-environments-open-water-divers-post6403039.html#post6403039)
I can imaging stopping the DM on the boat and asking, "Are there swim-throughs? If so, what are they like? Do they have multiple paths? Do they have sandy bottoms? How long are they"? I guess that would work. It would work. That is exactly what you should do IMO. Talk to the DM about the dive more, and ask questions regarding it. I never jump in the water somewhere without a thorough understanding of what we are doing if I have a person there who has that info. Of course it is different if no one has been there before. But more commonly you're going to be on a guided dive without any prior discussion of swim-throughs, and the DM goes into one without prior discussion. Then what do you do? Get out your slate and write, "TSandM told me I shouldn't follow you." Yeah right. Hell, I would do that if I did not feel comfortable. Of course a good Q&A before the dive could alleviate that uncomfortable and quite humorous situation.

Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I'd been on some really scary swim-throughs.
What is mundane to you, is a down right panic fest to others. To me if a DM does not mention swim throughs BEFORE any one gets in the water and asks who is not comfortable with it and make an alternate plan for those people, then he has no business being a DM.

On the other hand, I had the utmost confidence in my DM on this trip. After reading here about some less-than-conscientious DM's, I wouldn't want to enter any overhead environment with that kind of DM. I am glad you had the confidence in your DM. However, your last statement is what worries me to some point depending on how you mean it. To me it sounds like you are placing to much of your fate in a DM hands.

JamesK, I agree with everything you said.

Our DM did indeed mention swim-throughs before each dive on which we had them, told us not to follow with less than 1000 psi, and told us if we didn't want to go in them just go above, watch their bubbles, and meet them on the other side.

I also see what you're saying about not taking responsibility for my own safety by assuming the DM, no matter how trustworthy and competent, will keep me safe. Because no matter how competent and caring the DM is, he can't protect me from every contingency. That's my responsibility.

---------- Post Merged at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 01:31 AM ----------

Matt yes you should be questioning the DM before the dive. Any good dive brief IMHO includes a sincerely meant invitation for questions from the divers. If the DM does not downright encourage people to ask questions I would personally question their skills.... NOBODY is such a good communicator that they can explain a dive so well that they cover every area of concern to every potential participant. I want to know about DEPTH, CURRENT, OVERHEAD, ENTANGLEMENT risks, TOPOGRAPHY, TEMPERATURE, LIKELY VIZ, EXPECTED BOTTOM TIME, TURN and RESERVE PRESSURES and anything else that seems appropriate to know for the proposed dive. Of course the information I will require will depend on the site ie known or unknown to me &/or my buddy. If there is anybody doing the dive who doesn't seem to have much experience I will make a point of asking more questions knowing they may not be comfortable asking in hopes they learn from example that they can and should ask questions.

Frankly, I didn't realize this was possible. I thought you just had to sit there, listen to the briefing, then follow the DM into the water. But then, I have only been on 3 dive trips on boats.

But it's great to know. From now on, I'll ask whatever questions need to be asked, before each dive.

Thank-you.

clownfishsydney

July 7th, 2012, 07:40 AM

The point I made about Sheck Exley is that his risk assessment of the dive failed. He thought that the risk was covered by his contingencies but it was not. This is a basic mistake. It does not matter if you are diving to 10 metres or 50 metres or entering a 400 metre long cave, your risk assessment must come up with a result that the risk is tolerable (presumably in the case of a diver, this means that you will not die).

As to Dave Shaw, hell, his case is one of the worse I have ever seen of an inexperienced diver with too much money doing course after course and buying equipment that enabled him to do dives that otherwise could not be done (the dive he died on at 270 metres - 900 feet - was only his 333rd dive). His main mistake that killed him was his plan to put the body of Deon Dreyer in a body bag. This is hard work at 20 or 30 metres, let alone at the depths he was planning to do it at. He did not look at better and easier ways to retrieve the body. Remember, he had already connected the body by his reel to the shotline. All that they needed to try was to lift the shotline with a lift bag. In the end, this is what ended up bring Dreyer's body as well as Shaw's body back near the surface.

If this did not work, then taking a separate rope to the body and attaching it directly would have been a much easier option. Also remember that Dreyer's body had floated free of the silt before Shaw's torch head got entangled in the line. If he had left once this had happened, he would have possibly survived. See my web site page about this sad event: Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site (http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=695).

farsidefan1

July 7th, 2012, 05:13 PM

NWGratefulDiver

July 7th, 2012, 07:55 PM

My first dive after certifying was in Belize. NO briefing given and we went through a swim through that must have been 50 yards or longer (ok, I was a total noob so I don't have any accurate information but it was a loooong ways). I could not see any end for seveal (seemed like minutes) part way through there was a hole in the cieling where light came in but it was not big enough for an exit. Knowing what I know now I would have choked the living ... out of the dm for not briefing us. There were 3 brand new certified divers in our group. The passage was too narrow for 2 to pass so had something gone wrong there is no way the dm could have come in and helped us.

Victoria Tunnel ... right? I remember the hole in the ceiling.

I had about 70 dives under my belt when I did it, and my dive buddy had maybe 30. It's a pretty deep hole too ... starts at over 80 feet and comes out at around 90.

It's actually only 40 feet long ... but it seemed a lot longer.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Centrals

July 8th, 2012, 12:16 AM

.... In the end, this is what ended up bring See my web site page about this sad event: Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site (http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=695).
Where did you get the information that Dave Shaw did not have any training from an qualified instructor on his Mk 15.5?

clownfishsydney

July 9th, 2012, 07:20 AM

I was told that Shaw was not trained for his Mk 15.5 by someone who knew Shaw or the people he was diving with (I cannot now remember who). Whether it is true or not I do not know.

wtcreaux

July 25th, 2012, 02:28 PM

I was told that Shaw was not trained for his Mk 15.5 by someone who knew Shaw or the people he was diving with (I cannot now remember who). Whether it is true or not I do not know.

Michael,

Per the book "Raising the Dead: A true story of death and survival", Chapter 18,

".....The cradle of string that held the body of Deon Dreyer was hanging from the head of Dave Shaw's cave light, wrapped twice around it. And the light head, which Shaw usually wore at the back of his right hand, was hanging free.
Don Shirley and every other cave diver understood what that meant: Shaw at some point had slipped his hand from the light's rectangular grip and had allowed it to hang loose. The trailing light head had tangled in the cave line that led from the shot line to the body, the line which Shaw had run during his dive in October. Shaw had become the victim of one of the simplest and most insidious errors in cave diving: he had become tangled in the guide line.
.....because the camera housing prevented him from hanging the light around his neck, as he usually would, Shaw allowed the light to hang down by his side. It tangled in the guide line, which trapped him when he tried to leave."

This book was a very interesting read.......

zaberman1

July 25th, 2012, 03:09 PM

I think two criteria to add (apologies if this was posted elsewhere) are:

1. If the overhead was not apart of your dive plan, don't do it.
2. If the dive-op or buddy says 'trust me' and jumps into the water before you can ask any questions, don't do it.

fdennis

August 31st, 2012, 03:11 PM

I don't see how DMs (and novice divers, for that matter) don't have access to the required guidance. Every open water students reads and signs a copy of 'Safe Diving Practices (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roatan.com%2Fforms%2FP ADI_standard.pdf)'... so it's right there, clearly presented, before they ever receive a c-card for diving. PADI have that, so do SSI... I'd guess most agencies do.

"Engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience. Do not engage in cave or technical diving unless specifically trained to do so."

That's the problem, though - isn't it? A diver's tools for proper risk recognition and assessment are training and experience. Without training and experience, however, a diver may not be in the position to even recognize or comprehend a risk exists, much less properly assess it. A bit of a Catch-22, that.

DevonDiver

August 31st, 2012, 11:38 PM

A bit of a Catch-22, that.

Which is why a plethora of 'rules, recommendations and regulations' are given to novice divers.

Sadly, Darwin's Law does seem to determine that there'll always be a demographic who fail to see the value of those.

flots am

August 31st, 2012, 11:52 PM

It may be that I was not qualified to enter these swim-throughs. I don't know. I have open water, advanced open water, rescue and nitrox certification. At the beginning of the week I had 22 dives, now 35.

But whether I was qualified or not, I felt perfectly safe on these swim-throughs, and would not have traded the experience of them for anything.

"Feeling safe" is an illusion based on not understanding the risks.

There are many places where you "feel safe" even though you're only minutes on the "Still OK" side of a potential disaster.

The Blue Hole is a great example. I'm reasonably certain that few of the participants understood that they were incurring a decompression obligation while at the same time using up the gas they would need to clear it and that an emergency ascent would result in injury or death.

Wrecks and long swim-throughs are another. If the diver in the middle happens to run out of air, the "buddies" in front and in back don't have the right equipment or training for an air share (even if they were aware what was going on), and the Out of Air Ascent, which is the last-ditch option for keeping an OW diver alive isn't possible because you're inside a rock.

While these dives are, AFAIK, done without a lot of injuries or fatalities, this doesn't make them safe and the diver feeling safe is only the result of not understanding what's really going on.

flots.

DevonDiver

September 1st, 2012, 12:35 AM

"Feeling safe" is an illusion based on not understanding the risks.

Amen to that!

Don't we all "feel safe" until something goes wrong? People don't dive in a constant state of fear and caution - primarily because we don't perceive the risks that exist. As they gain more experience and/or training, that perception of risk increases. With experience, most divers feel 'less safe' as time goes on. The wise ones address that increased awareness through training...

It's a pretty universal lesson. For instance, I saw the same 'awakening' when people arrived in Afghanistan... the more you learn, the more risk you recognize, the more cautious you become.

TSandM

September 1st, 2012, 01:20 AM

Matt has brought up what I think is an excellent point.

The DM or captain briefs the site. What do you need to know about it, and was that information adequately covered in the briefing?

If the briefing includes swimthroughs or caverns, you need to know how big the space is, whether there are navigational decisions, whether there is ambient light, and what the bottom sediments are -- at a bare minimum. The first cave I swam into, I learned a few things about before I went in -- it was about 20 feet long, had a single bore, had no other exits, and had a bottom made of sand. It was big enough everywhere for a diver to turn around easily. I asked all those questions long before I ever had any cave training, and although I sort of knew what I was doing was probably foolish, I thought it would be okay, and it was. But I ASKED THE QUESTIONS. I often ask questions after dive briefings. I'm listening for certain things, and if I don't hear them, I'll ask about them. Sometimes the guide may have forgotten; sometimes he perhaps doesn't think the things I care about are important enough to mention, or thinks they ought to be self-evident. I have no shyness about asking for more information, if I feel as though I need it. Nobody should hesitate to do that.

DevonDiver

September 1st, 2012, 01:36 AM

If the briefing includes swimthroughs or caverns, you need to know how big the space is, whether there are navigational decisions, whether there is ambient light, and what the bottom sediments are -- at a bare minimum.

I think the underlying issue is whether divers know what questions to ask and how the answers relate to their experience.

The base problem of "you don't know what you don't know" is the evident flaw - how does one ask pertinent questions, if one doesn't understand what issues they need to consider in the first place?

I often ask questions after dive briefings. I'm listening for certain things, and if I don't hear them, I'll ask about them.

Has this approach changed as you gained experience - or was it a behavior that existed from your first experiences as a diver? If so, have the questions changed... and how you utilized the answered received?

Sometimes the guide may have forgotten; sometimes he perhaps doesn't think the things I care about are important enough to mention, or thinks they ought to be self-evident.

If so, I'd be inclined to think that the guide wasn't responsible enough to consider taking divers into those sort of situations. I'd further be inclined to 'walk away' from that dive/diver...

fdennis

September 2nd, 2012, 09:39 PM

The base problem of "you don't know what you don't know" is the evident flaw - how does one ask pertinent questions, if one doesn't understand what issues they need to consider in the first place?

Thank you, DD - this is exactly was I was shooting for earlier. Newly OW-certified divers are in the unenviable position of lacking the training and experience to recognize a wide array of risks may exist which have not been addressed in their training to date. Or, to paraphrase - not only do they not know anything, they don't suspect anything.

CamG

September 2nd, 2012, 11:49 PM

This thread has brought back some not so pleasant memories of dive #15 which was a guided dive in a Cenote in MX.
The first dive was ok till I was stuck behind a very inept frog kicking diver.
At the point that the struggles began I started to become a bit anxious not for any other reason other than being annoyed.
I did however decide to bag the second dive because of the whole misery of the first dive.

I HAD NOT IDEA OF THE RISKS OTHER THAN BEING TOLD TO STAY OUT OF CAVES BY OUR OW INSTRUCTOR!
The dives were completed as previously discussed without a hitch but it was sort of odd the manner in which I was treated when I told the others I would not be joining them on the next dive.
The guide started trying to buy my TransPac and I was not amused by the ribbing from a few other divers.
I feel it odd now admitting that I was not able to enjoy the dive due to the stress of the experience.

If I were to do the same dive now I would be enthralled and love every minute of it.
The difference is now I have been trained to dive overhead environments and enjoy to train to manage the risks involved in cave diving.
I find it odd that the only person to bag the guided dive in 2007 is the only person who went on to seek training and become a cave diver.
It just goes to show you that we all are wired a bit different but when we are trained to manage the risks of the environment the whole experience changes.
For me personally I fell in love with the whole experience, the training, the community of people, the cave itself!

If you are interested seek the training you will never loose!
Even if you decide not to dive caves or wrecks your dive skills will be greatly improved due to the training experience.
ALSO NEVER, NEVER, NEVER ALLOW ANYONE TO TAKE YOU ON A DIVE YOU ARE NOT TRAINED FOR!
There are NO benefits of these dives other than luck if you make it out!
I would have been money ahead to train before I attempted the Cenote dive that early in my dive career.

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

tstormdiver

September 3rd, 2012, 01:06 AM

Cam, I remember a few years ago when my shop went to Malaysia for 2 weeks. It was some of the most phenomenal diving I've evr done (now ranks closely behind the Mexican caves:D). On one of the dives to Sipadan Island, later in the trip we were informed that part of the dive was to enter a sea cave called Turtle cave (named for some turtle skeletons in the back of the cave). I was already at the Intro level, but atthat time did not have my reel or light with me. I had brought them to Malaysia with me, but did not have them on that boat trip). Without either, I did not feel safe. I told the dive master that I would remain outside of the cave during that portion of the dive. You ought to have heard all the ribbing I got, mostly along the lines of, "look at the cave diver who won't go in". I stuck to my guns & refused to go in, even when asked, by hand signals, by the rest of the group once the dive had commenced. Did they not think I wanted to go in? Of course I did, but not unprepared. They blindly followed the dive master into the cave. Thankfully about 15 min. later they all emerged safe & sound. All the while I was sitting there wondering how I was going to raise the emergency call & inform my cave instructor (who was leading the whole trip), if they did not. I still got lots of comments about not going in, on the trip back to the resort. In the end, I knew I was right. A couple days later I went back & may cave instructor was with our boat. When he found out about the cave penetration, after it had happened, he was livid that the dive masters would risk the safety of his clients. He tried to make both the dive masters & the customers who had gone in, understand the risks they had taken,... to no avail. It was decided that the dive master, myself & my instructor would go in this time while the others stayed outside. I took a light & a cavern reel. At 140ft penetration, I ran out of line. The skeletons were another 150ft back,... almost 300ft back. I stayed on the end of the line. The guide & my instructor went on to the skeletons & we kept in light communication at all times. The cave was rather low & very silty with sand. I could not see the entrance from the end of the line. At that point, it really drove home the dangers that these other unsuspecting divers were putting themselves into. If someone had lost their buoyancy & dropped a fin into the silt,... it would have made for a very bad day for some. Why did these guides lead untrained divers into this cave? Simply to enhance the diver's experiences & get bigger tips. We were told this directly. To this day, they still do these cave tours daily. Yes, there have been fatalities from it,.. but of course you don't hear about that in the briefings. All the more reason that overhead training is so important.

walrus2

September 3rd, 2012, 01:59 AM

Interesting story. I was at Sipadan two months ago. I saw the map of the cave on the boat. It clearly was a cave, not a cavern, and they even offered a special 'cave dive', which I think involved proper cave gear for at least a DM/guide and only one or two divers, but I didn't follow up (although I did have cavern gear). The first time there we went near the mouth only, but a bit to my surprise later in the week the DM said she'd take 5 of us inside. I also declined, both at the briefing on the boat and confirmed when they went in by signals. I said I'd wait outside at 30-40 ft. The others were back after 15 minutes or so and the dive continued along the nice wall back to the much nicer shallows. I got no negative comments from anyone, including the DM. I mentioned afterwards to some of the others the dive violated 4 of the 5 basic cave diving rules but none of the pretty experienced group (but mostly tropical/liveaboard diving, no overhead training) appeared particularly phased. I'm still somewhat puzzled by this. A friend told me when I mailed him a trip report that the fact that even turtles apparently drown there should have been an obvious sign that this dive has problems. I didn't expect them to die, but my choice was clear to me and not an issue during the dive as I decided beforehand I was willing to wait outside by myself. I think there are at least two issues - not all divers recognize that some dives are potentially a bad idea, but some who do might feel pressured to do those dives anyway. Don't...

Centrals

September 3rd, 2012, 02:29 AM

.... Why did these guides lead untrained divers into this cave? Simply to enhance the diver's experiences & get bigger tips. We were told this directly. To this day, they still do these cave tours daily. Yes, there have been fatalities from it,.. but of course you don't hear about that in the briefings. All the more reason that overhead training is so important.
Money comes before safety!!!!!! So pathetic and sad.
I had met divers bragging about the experience. All of them did not realize that their diving insurances DID NOT cover this kind of dive ie. beyond their training.

tstormdiver

September 3rd, 2012, 02:49 AM

I saw the map of the cave on the boat. It clearly was a cave, not a cavern, and they even offered a special 'cave dive', which I think involved proper cave gear for at least a DM/guide and only one or two divers, but I didn't follow up (although I did have cavern gear).

When I was there, there was no cave gear on anyone. Everyone was in single tanks, recreational configurations, maybe a few lights between all of them (there were 8 of us on the boat) & no reels or guidelines of any type. The guide had a regular sized flashlight & a few of our divers had some small lights (what I would consider as back- up lights). A couple days later when I entered, I took my 10 watt HID light & 2 back- ups, yet with as "dusty" as it was with silt, it didn't shine very far. Personally, I had learned my lesson (almost the hard way) the year before, about diving beyond my training & entering an overhead environment. I wasn't going to tempt fate a second time. Most of the negative comments were from the other divers from my shop, who couldn't understand why someone who is trained wouldn't go in. Yes, I was trained, but lacked the proper equipment. They were too excited at the aspect of getting to dive in a cave, like the "elite" cave divers, that the risks didn't even occur to them. Even when warned about how dagerous their actions had been, after the fact, most of them just didn't see it, because they had come out OK. When I dive in these environments, I try to stack the odds in my favor as much as I can.