travelling with backup

[slingshot]

In the past, there have been a few threads on travelling with dive gear in the "tanks and gear" section and in the "travel"section on the board. Haven't seen much of late. I am (was?) planning to take my bailout bottle (pony + SP Mk2+/R380) on a trip to Hawaii, but the airline (ATA) says "no scuba tanks" even if flying with valves off. Thus, some questions for y'all:

1. Do the airlines really pull your bag off a flight if they detect a valveless tank in your suitcase? No hearsay, only direct experience please. Does size matter (okay, let's keep our focus here) meaning spareAir okay, 80 cu foot bottle no way?

2. Has anyone tried shipping their bottles and meeting up with the brown van in their vacation destination?

"Why travel with a tank?" is no doubt running through someone's mind, but I haven't found much by way of pony rental's in Maui, I don't dive doubles, and generally prefer to dive with some redundancy.

Maybe if I stick a flower in the bottle neck and call it a vase?

[DORSETBOY]

Not exactly the answer you are looking for I know... but I've bought a "spare air" bottle when travelling for the same reason as yourself using a pony. The advantage is that they are far smaller than a pony but admittedly dont hold as much air.

[awap]

Scuba tanks are not banned (by gov action) & I doubt if ATA has gone off on their own to ban them. I've traveled with my pony (valve removed) a number of time recently. including ATA, with no problem. You may have just run into someone who didn't have the company answer, but thought they did.

[slingshot]

Thanks for the input Dorsetboy and Awap. My wife has a spare Air specifically for travel, and we debate the merits of pony vs spare air enough not to revisit that old debate here. Seems less likely to get noticed, for certain.

I don't think there is any federal mandate prohibiting de-valved tanks on flights, but ATA operates under a "Contract of Carriage" document which essentially lays out its contract with its passengers. Rule 190 states that while some gear e.g. fins and regulators are okay if "appropriately packaged", "tanks are not accepted under any conditions."

If I try to sneak my tank aboard, I'll post the results (if allowed to do so by my court appointed attorney).

[Snowbear]

-but Alaska Airlines allows empty (defined as less than 40psi) scuba tanks in luggage or as air freight. I tell them up front what I have and have had no problems.

[Birdman]

My brother just had his 20 cu ft pony bottle confiscated from his dive bag by airport security folk who were supposedly operating under a national agency acronym about 3 hrs ago. They paged him after he deposited his luggage at the ticket counter. He is headed to my place and we are then headed out of the country to do a live-aboard. Another brother works for Frontier and says this is supposedly their new policy. I am still going to try to bring my 20 cu ft cylinder with me, and spot my brother a 13 cu ft cylinder I use for argon. I am hoping he was just unlucky...

[DandyDon]

I pack my 19 cu ft pony in my luggae, fully drained, on every trip now, but when I went to TSA site, I further searched until I got to this page...

http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1190.xml

Which includes: "Dive tanks or any compressed gas cylinders are prohibited from carry-on and checked luggage."

TSA's toll-free number is 866-289-9673. Hope you can get the bottle back.

Otherwise, I hate to read that you want to use an Argon bottle as a Pony. Opens possibilities for confusion. One drag of Argon at depth can lead to be trouble.

don

[Birdman]

Dandydon -- thanks much for the info. No need to worry about the argon comment. I just didn't go so far as to say that in actuality I will only spot my brother a 13 cu. ft. cylinder that I use for argon after I carefully remove all traces of the argon sticker, remove the valve, and flush out the cylinder with air at my favorite local dive shop, which was the plan. Thanks for catching that. :)

[Doc Intrepid]

Thanks, Don, for the link. I emailed an inquiry to TSA and will post if I receive any reply. Awap, it appears the rules have changed and that you are mistaken!

Regretably rules such as this one are often written by someone who is not a diver, nor conversant with various options available. Not always, but sometimes. We'll see what sort of explanation is provided by TSA.

Meanwhile, pending some decision to revisit their ruling, it would appear that packing pony bottles in one's checked luggage is not an option. It is not wise to try in the hopes that the screeners will 'simply overlook' the tank in your suitcase. While it certainly may happen, it is doubtful...and if not you will be in the airport either with your bottle confiscated or with it in your hand trying to find a place to stash it before going through security on your way to your vacation. Neither option is very appealing.

At this point you have a number of other options:

1. Dive far more conservatively, plan carefully, and hope you don't get stuck with an inadequate buddy (if traveling single) and a rental tank with rust inside it or some other equipment failure.

2. Ship gear you'd like to the dive destination ahead of time, addressed to your host dive shop. Pre-arranged this should go smoothly, but nothing in life is guaranteed.

3. If your planned profiles essentially involve numerous deep dives, say on wrecks between 90' and 110', you could always sling mount another aluminum 80 like a stage tank. It's an awkward 'bailout bottle'. Breath it first, as a stage, and save backgas for unforeseen difficulties.

4. Same idea, different configuration. Something like this:
http://www.aquaexplorers.com/double_bands.htm


Then again, you could always trust the federal government to see the way, the truth, and the light and to reverse their ruling against (empty) compressed gas scuba cylinders in checked baggage!


Naaaah....

[DandyDon]

Spoke with an agent who said that the rules have always been the same with tanks. I asked her for a Supv. She contacted one, and still claimed that the rules have been that way all along...?

I've carried mine on 4 trips now, and - I think I'll continue. I'll be prepared:

(a) To remove valve, if that'll make them happy;

(b) Take it to my vehicle and leave it, if they insist; or

(c) To loose a tank. It could happen.

Really, I guess I could get arrested under the Act, but this seems very doubtful.

1. Dive far more conservatively, plan carefully, and hope you don't get stuck with an inadequate buddy (if traveling single) and a rental tank with rust inside it or some other equipment failure

Yeah, but - equipment can fail, and some of the boat-pick buddies I've had have been doozies. Few I'd trust with me life.

2. Ship gear you'd like to the dive destination ahead of time, addressed to your host dive shop. Pre-arranged this should go smoothly, but nothing in life is guaranteed.

For international locations, I think it'd be cheaper to buy new tanks and throw them away - as silly as that sounds. Might sell it there, but not for much.

3. If your planned profiles essentially involve numerous deep dives, say on wrecks between 90' and 110', you could always sling mount another aluminum 80 like a stage tank. It's an awkward 'bailout bottle'. Breath it first, as a stage, and save backgas for unforeseen difficulties.

Yes, they often do, but those are stateside, so I might ship the pony ahead there. Slinging another 80 is a bit much for me, I think, and boats often object to how many 80s they can carry. I've seen it.

4. Same idea, different configuration. Something like this:
http://www.aquaexplorers.com/double_bands.htm

Looks interesting, but the extra 80s on a boat thing again.

For boats that will allow extra 80s, this looks really interesting. I've read it pretty closely, but I'm not clear. Will they fit my Oceanic Probe BC, or will I need a new BC?

You'd need to alternate breathing off tanks, to avoid being unbalanced as one empties, huh?

Man, all I want is a bail-out bottle, and they screw it all up. For the record, I would not want to settle for a Spare Air, but then - those look covered by this prohibition, too...?!

Thanks for the discussion!! don

[Wreck Wench]

I always understood the ruling to say the bottle couldn't be under pressure so I've always removed my valve and carefully packed each in plastic bags. When the cylinder shows up on the scan...and it will...they will see it is empty and not under pressure and have always let it thru...even post 9-11.

[domino22]

Not real happy to just stumble on this topic. Am going to Coz in Feb and planned on taking a pony. Anyone remember if DFW airport still has lockers you can rent or did they go with 911? Went to south america 3 weeks ago and found out I am on the TSA no fly list! They had to call Houston and get me clearance can you belive that SH&T. The agent said I have a common name and this happens alot. She also said that I was cleared for the return trip. Ya right I thought I would never get out of Bogota' and I damm near didn't. Anyone else on the no fly list? I am batteling with the TSA as we speak. Sorry got off the topic alittle-alot. Damm I am still MAD. I am going to post this some where else!

[DandyDon]

domino22 once bubbled...
Not real happy to just stumble on this topic. Am going to Coz in Feb and planned on taking a pony. Anyone remember if DFW airport still has lockers you can rent or did they go with 911?

No Lockers at DFW since 9/11, or mailboxes. Not even as many trashcans.

I'll be going to Coz, with my Pony, the last week of January, and I'll report on the experiences. However, it seems that while the airlines have not been enforcing this, TSA has had the rule along - which the agents I've encountered so far have not enforced. They may start at any time.

Shipping the pony ahead and then back would be cost prohibitive, so I'm just going to take my chances, I guess...

don

[domino22]

dandydon once bubbled...


No Lockers at DFW since 9/11, or mailboxes. Not even as many trashcans.

I'll be going to Coz, with my Pony, the last week of January, and I'll report on the experiences. However, it seems that while the airlines have not been enforcing this, TSA has had the rule along - which the agents I've encountered so far have not enforced. They may start at any time.

Shipping the pony ahead and then back would be cost prohibitive, so I'm just going to take my chances, I guess...

don Thanks. I have left my dental pick and moustache scizzors behind no biggie. But the pony is a virgin and alot more $$

[Jetwrench]

Slingshot, this is my company's policy on tanks, which only addresses additional cost for baggage and does suggest that tanks are allowed onboard. Most airlines follow similiar rules across the board, but TSA will most likely be the one with final say, so concentrate on them.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Continental does accept one dive bag containing equipment used in the scuba-diving sport as part of the free baggage allowance. Scuba equipment in addition to the free baggage allowance will be assessed at the excess baggage charge applicable in the market for a single piece.

An empty dive tank will not be included in determining the Free Baggage Allowance and will be subject to a service charge of the applicable excess baggage charge. Contact Continental Airlines Reservations at 1-800-525-0280 or at our worldwide reservations numbers for service charge rates.

An item of SCUBA equipment consists of one empty SCUBA tank or one dive bag containing equipment used in the scuba-diving sport. The empty scuba tank and a separate dive bag containing SCUBA equipment will be charged as two separate pieces.

Continental is not liable for damage to Scuba diving equipment.

[DA Aquamaster]

4. Same idea, different configuration. Something like this:
http://www.aquaexplorers.com/double_bands.htm

Looks interesting, but the extra 80s on a boat thing again.

For boats that will allow extra 80s, this looks really interesting. I've read it pretty closely, but I'm not clear. Will they fit my Oceanic Probe BC, or will I need a new BC?

You'd need to alternate breathing off tanks, to avoid being unbalanced as one empties, huh?

Man, all I want is a bail-out bottle, and they screw it all up. For the record, I would not want to settle for a Spare Air, but then - those look covered by this prohibition, too...?!don

Normally you would breathe 1/3 of the air in one tank then switch to the other and breathe 2/3's then switch back to the first tank to finish the dive so in normal rules of thirds use virtually no assemetry exists.

Alternatively, if you are breathing off one tank through the entire dive and only using the other tank as a bailout, you should still have no significant problem. If one tank is full and the other near empty and you stop motionless in the water, you may slowly roll to one side after 10-15 seconds but you will not notice the assemetry during a normal dive. You can also plan ahead and load a couple pounds of weight in a BC pocket on the side you will be breathing off prior to the dive as you will then reduce any assemetry to around 2 -3 lbs max.

Carrying two tanks on the boat is not normally a problem especially if it is a two tank trip. You could breathe off both tanks and dive with the idea that each tank is "empty" at 1500 psi on the first dive and plan accordingly to ensure a full 80 cu ft for the second dive.

Alternatively, you could skip the math and unfamiliar psi amounts and gear up with both tanks but then breath off only one for the entire dive and keep the second as a REALLY large pony. Then you can swap tanks from side to side during the surface interval (an easy thing to do with the Aqua Explorer bands). On the second dive you would then use the fresh tank as the primary and use the "empty" as the pony bottle. With 500 psi remaining, an AL 80 will still have 12.8 cu ft in it, so if you maintain the customary reserve on the first dive, you will have at least 13 cu ft in the "pony" for the second dive. The two pounds of trim weight would go in the BC pocket on the pony side for this dive.

The Aqua Explorer bands will fit any standard BC as long as it has holes in the back pack to accomodate the 7/16's or 3/8's bolts needed to attach a set of double bands. They do not need to have the standard 11" centers.

[theskull]

You can certainly take an extra reg. How about e-mailing or phoning ahead to the shop you will be diving through and ask for a rental pony bottle? I'm sure with advance notice they could borrow one from one of their instructors or A+ customers to rent out for a few days, if they don't have one in rental stock.

theskull

[mer]

but I haven't found much by way of pony rental's in Maui

Yup, I've had the same problem. I'm going to Hawaii next month and can find "small tank" rentals in Kona, but no joy in Maui.

Here's a crazy idea... maybe cruise around on SB to see if there are any locals in the area who will be diving when you're there. Maybe you can luck out and find someone who has similiar objectives and planning methods.

[Backtanner]

For what it's worth, I just talked to an ATA gate agent here in Chicago about that and was told it should be fine as long as the bottle is empty and the top is removed. Bottom line, I think you got a gunshy ticket agent.

[DandyDon]

For what it's worth, I just talked to an ATA gate agent here in Chicago about that and was told it should be fine as long as the bottle is empty and the top is removed. Bottom line, I think you got a gunshy ticket agent.

The problem is with T.S.A. - not the airlines. Go back to Panles 6 & 7 here:

don

[slingshot]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I've just gotten back from Maui, and they gave my bags a pretty good going over (why a regulator "looks sharp" under x-ray I'll never know). My tank was however in a cardboard box with a shipping company, as was my video battery, both of which I shipped ahead to the place at which I was staying. Empty, a tank is not considered hazardous by FedEx (by phone, Luxfer said it is a "class 70 cylinder" whatever that means) which FedEx said is okay to ship without any hazardous material concerns. Based on the prior posts and reviews of the TSA site, it really sounds like taking a tank to the airport is an invitation to lose your bottle. That aside, the diving was good. Saw my first batfish (yes, in Hawaii). Happy diving in 2004.

[DandyDon]

Shipping ahead to and back from Hawaii is doable, but to any international dive spot - even Cozumel, it's almost as cheap to buy a new one there, then discard it at the end of the week. That doesn't appeal to me either...

Guess I'll remove the valve when I go in 3 weeks and see what happens. I could send an email complaint [I]to the guy in charge of TSA, as I think he's out on bail now! [/U]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...3-2004Jan1.html

don

[diver-greg]

I was researching this issue on ScubaBoard and on the TSA site. I found this:

"Dive tanks or any compressed gas cylinders are prohibited as checked baggage. *A compressed gas cylinder is allowed in carry-on baggage only if the regulator valve is completely disconnected from the cylinder and the cylinder is no longer sealed (i.e. the cylinder has an open end). *The cylinder must have an opening to allow for a visual inspection inside. *TSA Security Screeners will NOT remove the seal/regulator valve from the cylinder at the checkpoint. *If the cylinder is sealed (i.e. the regulator valve is still attached), the cylinder is prohibited and not permitted through the security checkpoint, regardless of the reading on the pressure gauge indicator. TSA Security Screeners must visibly ensure that the cylinder is completely empty and that there are no prohibited items inside."

http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?content=090005198005fee0

[Diver0ne]

I just returned from a trip to Kona on aloha from Orange County (SNA) and successfully carried on a steel pony.
As Diver-Greg has mentioned, if you read the text of the link referenced by DandyDon completely you will notice that you can carry on an empty bottle.
( http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1190.xml )

It reads as follows:

Dive tanks or any compressed gas cylinders are prohibited as checked baggage.
A compressed gas cylinder is allowed in carry-on baggage only if the regulator
valve is completely disconnected from the cylinder and the cylinder is no
longer sealed (i.e. the cylinder has an open end).

I found this interesting because in Jan you were required to check the cylinder...
I had a printout of the reg taped to my bottle and requested a hand check of all my bags so there was no issue of "disappearing" gear. also managed to get TSA to lock the bags after inspection.

I must admit that the first screener denied me my bottle but after 2 supervisors arrived and I showed them their own regs I was allowed to board. Coming back from Kona was slightly easier but I'd hope it would be.

BTW, one of the other divers on our trip had checked his AL bottle in St. Louis and it made it OK too.

[swisstrav]

"Travelers & Consumers Printable Version
Transporting Special Items

Transporting Scuba Equipment

Some scuba gear can be transported on-board the aircraft. Please refer to the guidelines below:

A compressed gas cylinder is allowed in carry-on baggage only if the regulator valve is completely disconnected from the cylinder and the cylinder is no longer sealed (i.e. the cylinder has an open end). The cylinder must have an opening to allow for a visual inspection inside."

according to the tsa statement transporting a pony bottle as cabin luggage should be possible. experience? no, i do not use pony bottles and haven't travelled to the states lately. might change next year.