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Akimbo
September 7th, 2012, 07:02 PM
Just curious. What phrase do recreational Scuba divers use to describe divers like this?

134807

I was thinking more like “Heavy Gear” or “Deep Sea” as opposed to nuts, dinosaur, or historic. ;) For those interested, this is a US Navy Mark V Helium Hat.

DandyDon
September 7th, 2012, 07:26 PM
Hard Hat diver

Akimbo
September 7th, 2012, 08:29 PM
I can buy that, but a lot of posts call the lightweight hats like the one in my avatar “hard hats”???

PansSiren
September 7th, 2012, 08:29 PM
Maybe there's more that goes into it (?) but I've always called it "saturation diving" / "saturation suit", or as Don said, "hard hat diving". The suit you have on in your avatar, is that basically the same thing, just modern? I lost my Mark V keychain yesterday, I'm pretty bummed! It's like the 6th one I've lost!!

g1138
September 7th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Those divers with the heavy duty metal helmets and lead boots. WWII Salvage diver.

"....the what?"

The Cuba Gooding Jr diver.

______________
On a side note, do they still use that for modern Sat diving?

dumpsterDiver
September 7th, 2012, 08:47 PM
"deadman walking"???

Akimbo
September 7th, 2012, 09:09 PM
Maybe there's more that goes into it (?) but I've always called it "saturation diving" / "saturation suit", or as Don said, "hard hat diving". The suit you have on in your avatar, is that basically the same thing, just modern? I lost my Mark V keychain yesterday, I'm pretty bummed! It's like the 6th one I've lost!!

The gear in the OP was developed by Augustus Siebe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Siebe) in the 1830s. Air continuously flowed, there was no demand regulator though some divers had tried jury-rigging one into a hat in the late 1950s and early 60s. To my knowledge, the classic spun-copper free-flow helmet and attached drysuit (or "dress") has never been used except for surfaced-supplied diving.

Saturation diving was developed by the US Navy’s Captain George Bond (affectionately known as Papa Topside) in the 1960s. All divers know that the deeper we go and longer we stay, the longer decompression will be. That is true until we stay long enough for our tissues to become fully saturated, as they are normally as sea level. At that point decompression times no longer increase. Theoretical saturation time is about 24 hours. As a result, it does not matter if you stay 24 hours, 24 days, or 24 months, the decompression time is the same. Typical sats are 2-4 weeks on the bottom (plus decompression) or until the job is done. Many jobs last much longer so crews are swapped out through various chambers connected to the complex.

You hear about some habitat-based scientific saturation dives but they are relatively shallow and rare. Sat crews live in chambers on deck pressurized to their holding depth, typically at the shallow range of their working depth. They transfer to the work site via a diving bell, lock out, and typically spend 6-12 hours between crew changes. They all wear lightweight hats and hot water suits breathing HeO2 mixtures typically between .3 to .8 ATA O2, almost always using a closed-circuit surface-based recirculating system to conserve gas.

Search Saturation Diving on YouTube, there are lots of videos. I never realized that people might confuse the oldest diving gear (after breath-holding) with the most advanced and sophisticated diving. Here is an image of a typical North Sea saturation diving support vessel.

134830

She is 94 Meters long x 18 Meters wide, supports 18 divers in sat to 370 Meters (1,214 FSW) with two bells and a ROV (Remotely Operated Vehicle). Onboard gas is measured in hundreds of thousands of cubic feet.

lonebrave
September 7th, 2012, 09:52 PM
hard hat (both the old and the new as in your avatar...both are hard, not necessarily heavy, right?)

graham_s
September 7th, 2012, 09:56 PM
standard diving dress.

Blackwood
September 7th, 2012, 10:01 PM
Child's play

scubadada
September 7th, 2012, 10:22 PM
I was fortunate to have the opportunity to dive a Mark V helmet while taking Dick Rutkowski's hyperbaric medicine course at Hyperbarics International in Key Largo. This was really a tremendous experience, one that I will not forget, highly recommended.

Good diving, Craig

Akimbo
September 7th, 2012, 10:47 PM
hard hat (both the old and the new as in your avatar...both are hard, not necessarily heavy, right?)

True. The “old” hats were spun copper, and displaced a lot more water than they weighed. The weight varies but the US Navy Mark V is 54 Lbs for the hat and breast plate. The navy used an 85 Lb weight belt plus 35 Lb shoes, though the commercial diving industry’s models were around 15-25% lighter.

Modern lightweight hats are pretty close to neutral in the water and in the 20-30 Lb range. Most are fiberglass and a few are Bronze or Stainless. The industry leader is Kirby Morgan (http://www.kirbymorgan.com/). This is the same Bev Morgan who was an early pioneer in Scuba diving. With few exceptions they have demand regulators, support freeflow, and bailout bottles to backup the primary umbilical supply. Also hard-wire communications is standard.

Kirby Morgan actually started building heavy-gear/spun copper hats with dramatically improved large view ports made from 1" Plexiglas. They soon added fiberglass full face masks and starting building experimental mask/hat hybrids for the Navy. Fiberglass was one of Bev’s many talents picked up from building surf boards.


Those divers with the heavy duty metal helmets and lead boots. WWII Salvage diver.

"....the what?"…

I guess "....the what?" prompted my question. It was called “Deep Sea” or “Hard Hat” gear in the Sea Hunt Days (1950s). Heavy Gear became common in the US commercial diving industry after lightweight FFMs and hats started to dominate. I lost track of what the general population called it. Believe me, I wished it was WWII vintage. In hind sight I don’t regret training in this gear, but I am sure glad I never had to actually work in it.

As much as I hate to say it, being one of the many post-heavy gear evangelists, heavy gear still has its place. Aside from being the least expensive gear to maintain, it is what you want to wear in a cold contaminated harbor running a hack hammer. You can make yourself 50 Lbs heavy on the bottom or wrap your arms around some 200 Lb part, inflate the suit, and walk it over the bottom like you are superman… just don’t let go.

ermaclob
September 7th, 2012, 11:02 PM
I now call these types of divers "hard hat diver", but before i ever started diving i was prone to call them "Big Dady" or "Metal Dady" as i played alot of Bioshock. :dork2:

What is the offical term for these divers?? OP if you say that the helmet you have isnt a "hard hat" isnt it pretty much the same thing.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100414022307/bioshock/images/1/1b/BS1RosieNeptunesBounty.png

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100201053920/bioshock/images/e/ec/Bouncer_Rendered_Model.png

---------- Post Merged at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:01 PM ----------

i think you answered my question as i was writing this post

DandyDon
September 7th, 2012, 11:59 PM
I can buy that, but a lot of posts call the lightweight hats like the one in my avatar “hard hats”???
Your helmet looks hard. Is it?

smellzlikefish
September 8th, 2012, 12:01 AM
Having no comercial or saturation diving experience, this is one of the most interesting threads I have seen on this site. Thanks for sharing.

Akimbo
September 8th, 2012, 12:09 AM
I now call these types of divers "hard hat diver", but before i ever started diving i was prone to call them "Big Dady" or "Metal Dady" as i played alot of Bioshock. :dork2: …

I would call these guys Sir followed up with a humble bow as I am looking for the door!


…What is the offical term for these divers?? OP if you say that the helmet you have isnt a "hard hat" isnt it pretty much the same thing…

No joke, that is why I asked the question. There is no “official name”. Even if there was, American’s probably wouldn’t use it anyway. ;)

Hard Hat and Deep Sea Divers are the “classic” names I know. But there is obviously no “standard” used here. Besides, by modern saturation diving standards it is hard to call common air-breathing surface supplied divers “Deep Sea” — especially dressed in gear invented before the Civil War. I would not expect the term “Heavy Gear Divers” to be used outside the commercial diving industry so I thought I would ask.

---------- Post Merged at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:02 PM ----------


Your helmet looks hard. Is it?

Sure, 316 Stainless Steel. Nobody is to say Hard Hat is wrong, but the term was used for the spun-copper Mark V variety long before lightweigh hats and hot water suits (or wetsuits for that mattter) were invented.

ermaclob
September 8th, 2012, 01:36 AM
Sure, 316 Stainless Steel. Nobody is to say Hard Hat is wrong, but the term was used for the spun-copper Mark V variety long before lightweigh hats and hot water suits (or wetsuits for that mattter) were invented.

just as a generality, any dive helmet thats make a knocking sound when you knock on it is a hard hat to me.

to be honest i, think of "hard hat diving" as the type of diving when some one walks (no fins), with a surface air line to a helmet (doesn't mater what its made of). if you use use tanks its scuba even with a hard helmet. at least thats how i think of it. this really isnt a subject i ponder about :dontknow:

DaleC
September 8th, 2012, 03:14 AM
I call it awesome!

When they came on the scene, the first SCUBA divers (Cousteau first labeled them "menfish") were called "skin divers" because they were relatively naked in comparison to hardhat divers, who were just called "divers". They were also called "free divers" because they were not tethered to the surface like real divers. This was all very distrusted by most of the existing diving fraternity as being quite dangerous. As SCUBA became common place, snorkelers began to be called "skin divers" as they then became rather lightly dressed in comparison. Now the term "free diver" is used to describe a snorkeler who's main objective is to descend beneath the surface (rather than float and look down).

AfterDark
September 8th, 2012, 04:13 AM
I can buy that, but a lot of posts call the lightweight hats like the one in my avatar “hard hats”???

Hard Hat (heavy rig) Helmet rig a major diffference IMO is the helmet rig can faciltate underwater swimming.

Drewpy
September 8th, 2012, 04:23 AM
Museum artifacts..

Rich Keller
September 8th, 2012, 09:29 AM
The common term would be commercial diver though there is no official term. Hard hat diver would be another common term though that is not 100% correct as it only covers one type of equipment used but it will get your point across to most people. There are three basic types of equipment used, helmets, hats and masks. A helmet like the Mark V pictured in your first post is connected to a breast plate that rests on your shoulders. A hat like the one in your avatar is connected to you head in some way and seals around your neck. A mask seals just around your face secured by a harness around your head over a wetsuit hood that is also attached to the mask. As for this being "child's play", the Mark V weighs 198 lbs, add to that your weight, in my case another 215 lbs, then try to walk that 400+ lbs up a ladder after working a few hours in the water before you dismiss this as child's play.

PansSiren
September 8th, 2012, 12:32 PM
I never realized that people might confuse the oldest diving gear (after breath-holding) with the most advanced and sophisticated diving.

Well damn, now don't I feel like a smacked ass?! hahahaha. Thanks for the explanation! Time to go get some popcorn (or maybe some swedish fish) and watch more diving vids :D

Akimbo
September 8th, 2012, 01:04 PM
…When they came on the scene, the first SCUBA divers (Cousteau first labeled them "menfish") were called "skin divers" because they were relatively naked in comparison to hardhat divers, who were just called "divers"...

Good point. Commercial divers were listed under divers in the yellow pages in the 50s and 60s, at least in the West Coast. Scuba diving was listed under Skin Diving.


… There are three basic types of equipment used, helmets, hats and masks. A helmet like the Mark V pictured in your first post is connected to a breast plate that rests on your shoulders...

Even that is inconsistent. The Mark V Helium Hat image in the OP was operational in the 1930s. They called it the Helium Hat in the books on the Squalus disaster (SS-192), and Desco still offer them under that name. And then there is the term “Hard Hat Diver” that predates Cousteau, at least in the US.

OMG, is this conclusive proof the hyperbaric pressure creates self-identity disorders? ;)

Searcaigh
September 8th, 2012, 03:41 PM
standard diving dress.

When I first started diving this is exactly what my more experienced co-workers described it as and I assume it to be a Royal Navy description. Not that I dived with this equipment, but Kirby Morgan band masks and lightweights (which are not really that light) along with hot water suits (luxury) are what I experienced before doing scuba diving for fun.

Akimbo
September 8th, 2012, 04:48 PM
When I first started diving [standard diving dress] is exactly what my more experienced co-workers described it as and I assume it to be a Royal Navy description...

I substituted the red text for clarity

I heard “standard dress” used in the North Sea by Brits I worked with in the 1970s, but can’t remember it ever coming up in conversation with the general population in Europe. Do you think the term was known to non-divers and sport divers? I never heard it used here in the US.

How about in Canada?

DaleC
September 8th, 2012, 11:55 PM
I think the term "standard dress" came from the USN which used the Mk5 & canvas suit as the standard working rig for it's divers. In that regimented setting, if told you were diving in standard dress you would know exactly what you would be using and how to use it.

For shallow work they would use the "Jack Browne" (DESCO still makes them) positive pressure face mask (also surface supplied). It is the mask Mike Nelson dons at the beginning of every Sea Hunt episode.

Other countries may have had other rigs at their disposal so the term may mean different things to different people.

As for Canada, I am woefully lacking in written material regarding our countries diving equipment. I don't know if we did our own thing or just piggybacked off of the Americans and British?

smellzlikefish
September 9th, 2012, 02:32 AM
Good point. Commercial divers were listed under divers in the yellow pages

Speaking of old equipment...

DandyDon
September 9th, 2012, 03:15 AM
Speaking of old equipment...
Yellow Pages? Sure. Many of my local businesses do not have websites, but they all have landlines.

dbulmer
September 9th, 2012, 04:53 AM
Just curious. What phrase do recreational Scuba divers use to describe divers like this?

134807

I was thinking more like “Heavy Gear” or “Deep Sea” as opposed to nuts, dinosaur, or historic. ;) For those interested, this is a US Navy Mark V Helium Hat.

Squidge hunters

Rich Keller
September 9th, 2012, 08:29 AM
This is from the US Navy Diving Manual.

MK V Deep-Sea Diving Dress. By 1905, the Bureau of Construction and Repair had designed the MK V Diving Helmet which seemed to address many of the problems encountered in diving. This deep-sea outfit was designed for extensive, rugged diving work and provided the diver maximum physical protection and some maneuverability.
The 1905 MK V Diving Helmet had an elbow inlet with a safety valve that allowed air to enter the helmet, but not to escape back up the umbilical if the air supply were interrupted. Air was expelled from the helmet through an exhaust valve on the right side, below the port. The exhaust valve was vented toward the rear of the helmet to prevent escaping bubbles from interfering with the diver’s field of vision.
By 1916, several improvements had been made to the helmet, including a rudi- mentary communications system via a telephone cable and a regulating valve operated by an interior push button. The regulating valve allowed some control of the atmospheric pressure. A supplementary relief valve, known as the spitcock, was added to the left side of the helmet. A safety catch was also incorporated to keep the helmet attached to the breast plate. The exhaust valve and the communi- cations system were improved by 1927, and the weight of the helmet was decreased to be more comfortable for the diver.
After 1927, the MK V changed very little. It remained basically the same helmet used in salvage operations of the USS S-51 and USS S-4 in the mid-1920s. With its associated deep-sea dress and umbilical, the MK V was used for all submarine rescue and salvage work undertaken in peacetime and practically all salvage work undertaken during World War II. The MK V Diving Helmet was the standard U.S. Navy diving equipment until succeeded by the MK 12 Surface-Supplied Diving System (SSDS) in February 1980 (see Figure 1-8). The MK 12 was replaced by the MK 21 in December 1993.

tridacna
September 9th, 2012, 08:44 AM
Yellow Pages? Sure. Many of my local businesses do not have websites, but they all have landlines.

Dan, sorry to burst your bubble but those "landlines" are most likely VOIP lines - connected to the Internet somewhere! POTS lines are getting really hard to find these days.

DandyDon
September 9th, 2012, 10:25 AM
Dan, sorry to burst your bubble but those "landlines" are most likely VOIP lines - connected to the Internet somewhere! POTS lines are getting really hard to find these days.
Many of my local businesses do not have websites, but they all in the yellow pages - which should be a free service on the net, but ain't, TMK.

Akimbo
September 9th, 2012, 04:03 PM
… This deep-sea outfit was designed for extensive, rugged diving work and provided the diver maximum physical protection and some maneuverability...

Man, can I attest to that. Unfortunately, protection wasn’t so great either since all the suits leaked like a sieve — which didn’t improve what little maneuverability there was. To be fair, vertical maneuverability was great. You can go from 50 Lbs negative to 250 Lbs positive in under a minute. You can even go to 150 Lbs negative, after the suit bursts and you have fallen back into the mud!


… The MK V Diving Helmet was the standard U.S. Navy diving equipment until succeeded by the MK 12 Surface-Supplied Diving System (SSDS) in February 1980...

Amazing really. Except for improved materials (especially hoses) and adding communications about 100 years later, the Augustus Siebe design from the 1830s was the “standard” in our Navy until 1980.

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I think the term "standard dress" came from the USN which used the Mk5 & canvas suit as the standard working rig for it's divers…

Maybe it’s been too long, but I don’t remember “standard dress” used in the US Navy. Verbal short-hand was mostly Hat for the Mark V and Mask for the Jack Brown. Surprising to many, the Jack Brown was not very popular among the divers. A lot of guys called it Black Death.

134962

It is a very low volume free-flow FFM; no demand regulator just a small rotating-stem flow control valve. The exhaust valve is a simple mushroom valve that is entirely too small so opening the free-flow valve too much causes the mask to overpressure, push away from your face until the pressure drops, and repeat — I believe we called it water hammer. There was no comm system except for yanking the hose in a pre-determined sequence (same for the Mark V since comms weren’t that reliable).

Being free-flow there was no point in using a bail-out bottle and very low volume meant even a momentary interruption is supply meant ZERO to breathe. You can re-breathe the air trapped in a Mark V for 5-6 minutes before CO2 buildup starts to make it scary (assuming you notice the loss and close down your exhaust valve).

Wetsuits were Navy issue in most commands so they fit poorly and were typically in poor repair. All these short-comings made the Mark V look pretty good to a lot of guys, especially in cold or deep water. Navy divers didn’t wear fins because the standard weight belt was 45 Lbs. At least it had a quick release buckle and suspenders unlike the Mark V. You also have to remember that a lot of these guys were not proficient Scuba divers so they felt much less secure, sort of naked and alone.

henryrendleman
September 10th, 2012, 08:25 PM
I was thinking Vintage. lol.

smellzlikefish
September 11th, 2012, 02:22 PM
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/images_sb/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tridacna http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/images_sb/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/advanced-scuba-discussions/433006-what-do-you-call-gear-4.html#post6479876)
Dan, sorry to burst your bubble but those "landlines" are most likely VOIP lines - connected to the Internet somewhere! POTS lines are getting really hard to find these days.



Many of my local businesses do not have websites, but they all in the yellow pages - which should be a free service on the net, but ain't, TMK.
With the accessibility of the internet, I was just kind of wondering how any years has it been since I picked up a phone book. Google searching and sites like Yelp have filled that void 100%.

DandyDon
September 11th, 2012, 04:00 PM
With the accessibility of the internet, I was just kind of wondering how any years has it been since I picked up a phone book. Google searching and sites like Yelp have filled that void 100%.
Little different out here in Mayberrry.

Dive the World
September 18th, 2012, 07:27 AM
Old School - all the way.

DaleC
September 18th, 2012, 09:47 AM
With the accessibility of the internet, I was just kind of wondering how any years has it been since I picked up a phone book. Google searching and sites like Yelp have filled that void 100%.

I just used one yesterday. If you hit a guy right it won't leave any bruises.

Bombay High
September 18th, 2012, 01:42 PM
______________
On a side note, do they still use that for modern Sat diving?

No, thank god !

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That is surface supplied, and not Saturation.

---------- Post Merged at 11:09 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:52 PM ----------


Man, can I attest to that. Unfortunately, protection wasn’t so great either since all the suits leaked like a sieve — which didn’t improve what little maneuverability there was. To be fair, vertical maneuverability was great. You can go from 50 Lbs negative to 250 Lbs positive in under a minute. You can even go to 150 Lbs negative, after the suit bursts and you have fallen back into the mud!

.

I would love some more details of your insane submerged Saturation on the Andrea Doria. I remember reading about it as a 19 year old in Aberdeen, not knowing that 24 years later I would bump into you on the internet.

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BTW - I think that is by far the deepest habitat saturation ever achieved.

Akimbo
September 25th, 2012, 12:19 PM
…I would love some more details of your insane submerged Saturation on the Andrea Doria. I remember reading about it as a 19 year old in Aberdeen, not knowing that 24 years later I would bump into you on the internet….

There are way too many insane details to fit in a post! The most accurate documentation on that dive was written by Jack McKinney in Skin Diver Magazine. It was a 2-part article that ran in January and February 1974.

This was the shallowest sat I ever made at ~150' (depth was tidal), floating above her Port side at 160'. Seabed is about 240'. Most of the dive was spent cutting away the double hull doors to the first class foyer, which Oceaneering divers later enlarged about 3x on the Gimbal dive years later (Gimbal’s hole).

Basically, we couldn’t afford to build a conventional surface-based sat system let alone the vessel to support it. Our “support ship” was the same 85' fishing boat that Bruno Valatti(sp?) chartered in the late 1960s to film her (all air Scuba). I got the information on the Narragansett (fishing boat) and deck plans for the Doria from Al Giddings who was on that project… not engineering drawings from the ship yard, an enlarged copy of the deck layout that they gave to passengers!

We raised money from investors to build a single lock “habitat” that was 5' in diameter x 12½' long and rated for 300'. It had a small medical lock that could be used when completing decompression after the Habitat was lifted onto the pier. The money went entirely to materials and operating costs while labor was a gamble for a percentage of the recovery… which amounted to well under zero — it cost more than we had and took a couple of years to pay off.

We also had a 54" double-lock chamber onboard for Sur-D-O2 (Surface Decompression using Oxygen) and treating hits to surface divers. Several of us made 4 surface jumps/day in Scuba to set up the habitat, alternating air and HeO2 with water stops at 20' on pure O2 before completing decompression in the double-lock. A Navy hyperbaric doc onboard came up with the concept and it worked great. We did run some Table 5s (DCS treatments) on some of support divers and photographers that were on air only. The fish hold was crammed with gas bottles, spares, tools, and bunks.

Without a doubt our biggest problem was swinging on a single-point moor, followed closely by being in the separation zone for shipping lanes to New York. The “plan” was to disconnect and toss umbilicals over the side with buoys and trip a Pelican Hook on the mooring ball to evade any oncoming ships that weren’t looking at the radar or listening to the USCG bullions on the radio. Good thing we didn’t have to resort to that because the umbilical probably would have wrapped around some freighter’s screw, yanking the habitat off the Port side with one or both of use dangling by our umbilicals. “Occupational Hazards” are a lot more acceptable in your 20s on what amounted to a treasure salvage… sure glad Darwin was on vacation that month!

Fortunately, nobody was hurt — aside from egos and bank accounts. Everyone worked incredibly hard, but I doubt any of us would trade that “learning experience” for a holiday in the Caribbean.

Preventing the mooring cable from tying bowlines in the habitat and welding/burning umbilicals was a constant battle. I can’t remember how many times the burning umbilical had to be man-handled back to the surface for repairs. Food and SodaSorb was replenished by support Scuba divers every day or two using a modified paint pot. Fortunately, Mother (the habitat) was only about 40' from the down-line.

After finally getting the doors off we dropped into the foyer to discover flooring, bulkheads, and overheads floating around suspended by electrical wiring. Naturally all the safes were either amidships or on the starboard side in the mud. We didn’t need an accountant to tell us clearing all that stuff so we could work under it would cost a lot more than was in all the safes combined, let alone what we would lose in Admiralty Court.


…BTW - I think that is by far the deepest habitat saturation ever achieved.

Deepest, not even close. Least expensive maybe. Ed Link’s SPID was at 131 meters (432') in 1964. Cousteau’s Conshelf III was at 102.4 meters (336') in the Med in 1965. SeaLab I was in 58 m (192') in 1964 and SeaLab II was in 58 m (204') in 65. SeaLab III was at 186 m (610') but was scrubbed when Barry Cannon died before anyone got in the habitat. They were already saturated in the surface-based Mark II Deep Dive System aboard the Elk River (IX-501), where I was stationed several years later. Our Doria dive was in 1973. Exciting times.

tracydr
September 25th, 2012, 12:25 PM
Anybody read the IPAD book, Descent Into Darkness? It's an awesome book about Navy salvage divers at Pearl Harbor. True story, written by one of the divers.

ajduplessis
September 25th, 2012, 01:56 PM
Looking at pic the only thing that goes through my head is "desperate" :D

Akimbo
March 2nd, 2015, 09:01 PM
I know this is an old thread but I thought it was a good place for this old Navy training film I just found. It explains how Deep Sea Gear works:

The World of the Sea Deep Diving (1943)
https://archive.org/details/TheWorldOfTheSeaDeepDiving

rx7diver
March 2nd, 2015, 09:51 PM
Interesting: "Must ascend no faster than 25 fpm."

Akimbo
March 2nd, 2015, 09:59 PM
That was the Navy ascent rate in 1943. It went to 60'/minute in the 1950s. Of course it is 30'/minute now.

shoredivr
March 2nd, 2015, 10:05 PM
What does "band" in band mask refer to?

Akimbo
March 2nd, 2015, 11:19 PM
What does "band" in band mask refer to?

The hood and face seal is held onto the fiberglass frame with a metal band, which incorporates pins that the rubber spider attaches to.

BandMask 18 | Kirby Morgan (http://www.kirbymorgan.com/products/bandmasks/bandmask-18)

204031

shoredivr
March 3rd, 2015, 12:34 AM
The hood and face seal is held onto the frame with a metal band, which incorporates pins that the rubber spider attaches to.

BandMask 18 | Kirby Morgan (http://www.kirbymorgan.com/products/bandmasks/bandmask-18)

204031
Do you equalize this by pushing the lever above the regulator which moves a nose block against your nostrils?

NWGratefulDiver
March 3rd, 2015, 11:16 AM
Just curious. What phrase do recreational Scuba divers use to describe divers like this?

134807



... underwater construction workers ... this has nothing to do with SCUBA or recreational diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Akimbo
March 3rd, 2015, 01:29 PM
Do you equalize this by pushing the lever above the regulator which moves a nose block against your nostrils?

Yes except it is a push rod rather than a lever. Most divers also have to push the mask up a bit to block nostrils. The face seal is very wide and soft so it can move a lot more than other FFMs without leaking.


... underwater construction workers ... this has nothing to do with SCUBA or recreational diving ...

Nothing? Somebody should explain that to these guys:

NEDEG - North East Diving Equipment Group Homepage (http://www.northeastdivingequipmentgroup.com/)

NWGratefulDiver
March 3rd, 2015, 01:38 PM
Nothing? Somebody should explain that to these guys:

NEDEG - North East Diving Equipment Group Homepage (http://www.northeastdivingequipmentgroup.com/)

... maybe you should contemplate for a moment what SCUBA stands for. Here's a hint ... it doesn't stand for "surface supplied"..

When was the last time you saw somebody diving in Cozumel or the Caymens in the rig you posted in the original post of this thread?

Get serious. If you want to dive that rig, great ... but walking around on the bottom in lead boots isn't recreational scuba diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

descent
March 3rd, 2015, 02:14 PM
Akimbo, as always, thanks so much for your insight.

On the subject of using a nose block, perhaps in a huge hurry ...

204044

... do you expect that this fellow will be using his hat for flotation near the surface briefly, or will he just plummet to the bottom like a stone?

Akimbo
March 3rd, 2015, 02:24 PM
... do you expect that this fellow will be using his hat for flotation near the surface briefly, or will he just plummet to the bottom like a stone?

Hard to tell. Some guys can equalize as fast as the tender can feed out umbilical. He may also have the nose-block already pushed in and exhaling through his nose to equalize. He may also be in very shallow water since he isn’t wearing a bailout.

It “looks” like he has too much weight to be neutral, which you would expect without fins.

Edit: A modern lightweight hat like this is virtually neutral so you can comfortably work in any position, so no buoyancy unlike Heavy Gear.

descent
March 3rd, 2015, 02:46 PM
... A modern lightweight hat like this is virtually neutral so you can comfortably work in any position, so no buoyancy unlike Heavy Gear.

Neutral? I did not know that.

I would donate money, time, and transportation to help start something like NEDEG (http://www.northeastdivingequipmentgroup.com/) on the West Coast. Learning and diving the new gear would be a real treat.

204045

Akimbo
March 3rd, 2015, 07:23 PM
…I would donate money, time, and transportation to help start something like NEDEG (http://www.northeastdivingequipmentgroup.com/) on the West Coast. Learning and diving the new gear would be a real treat…

I have always gained insight from diving new gear. You “might” be able to arrange a demo dive for a group at a commercial diving school like Santa Barbara City College (http://www.sbcc.edu/marinediving/), National University Polytechnic (http://nupolytech.org/) in San Diego, or Divers Institute of Technology (https://www.diversinstitute.edu/) in Seattle.

Another interesting and fun option is to arrange chamber rides. You have one close by in Pacific Grove that has recently been refurbished. You can perceive a great deal in a chamber that goes un-noticed in the water as well as safely experiencing Nitrogen Narcosis well beyond most diver’s training.

Hyperbaric chamber reopens in Pacific Grove (http://www.montereyherald.com/general-news/20130902/hyperbaric-chamber-reopens-in-pacific-grove)

scjoe
March 3rd, 2015, 08:31 PM
... maybe you should contemplate for a moment what SCUBA stands for. Here's a hint ... it doesn't stand for "surface supplied"..

When was the last time you saw somebody diving in Cozumel or the Caymens in the rig you posted in the original post of this thread?

Get serious. If you want to dive that rig, great ... but walking around on the bottom in lead boots isn't recreational scuba diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

It may not be "SCUBA," but it can be recreational diving.

NWGratefulDiver
March 4th, 2015, 12:24 PM
It may not be "SCUBA," but it can be recreational diving.

... in a boutique sort of way, and in very limited environs. I don't think anyone wants to see hordes of divers tromping around the reefs in that kind of gear ... it might work for a week or two, till the reefs got so trashed they wouldn't be worth seeing anymore.

That equipment was designed for workers who have to spend many hours at a time underwater ... not traveling vacationers with limited training and experience. Of course, just like some people who believe that cave diving or free diving equipment is the optimal solution for "any environment" ... so do some hardhat divers seem to believe that their gear of choice is the "best" for everyone. The reality is it's the best choice for the application it was designed for, and while it can be applied in a broader sense, that application comes with some drawbacks that have to be considered on a case-by-case basis ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Akimbo
March 4th, 2015, 03:04 PM
It occurred to me that I should complete the equalizing discussion. Most divers including commercial use the Valsalva maneuver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valsalva_maneuver) to equalize, but that’s not the only option. Many commercial and freedivers have learned alternate equalizing techniques (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ear_clearing) that don’t require blocking the nostrils, though for different reasons. However, these alternate techniques are very useful to recreational divers as well — if you are lucky enough to be physiologically compatible and dive often enough to master one. For example, photographers descending anchor lines in a current run out of hands for equalizing. That is behind the statement “Some guys can equalize as fast as the tender can feed out umbilical” in Post #53.

Freedivers run out of the lung volume necessary for the diaphragm to press air into the Eustachian tube around 20M/66'/3 ATA so must master another method to dive deeper. Freedivers also descent in the 50M or 200’/minute range. Surface-supplied commercial divers are often limited by decompression time so getting to the bottom/work site quickly is very important since the bottom-time clock starts when they leave the surface.

The nose-block mechanism in modern lightweight masks and hats made by Kirby Morgan (http://www.kirbymorgan.com/) has already been explained. Many of the earlier lightweight hats and the deep sea hat like in the original post don’t have nose blocks. Primitive as it sounds, the diver would press their upper lip against a protrusion inside the hat to block the nostrils. You can move your head around inside the old deep sea gear and move the hat a little in lightweight models using a neck dam.

Superlyte27
March 4th, 2015, 03:08 PM
The gear in the OP was developed by Augustus Siebe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Siebe) in the 1830s. Air continuously flowed, there was no demand regulator though some divers had tried jury-rigging one into a hat in the late 1950s and early 60s. To my knowledge, the classic spun-copper free-flow helmet and attached drysuit (or "dress") has never been used except for surfaced-supplied diving.

Saturation diving was developed by the US Navy’s Captain George Bond (affectionately known as Papa Topside) in the 1960s. All divers know that the deeper we go and longer we stay, the longer decompression will be. That is true until we stay long enough for our tissues to become fully saturated, as they are normally as sea level. At that point decompression times no longer increase. Theoretical saturation time is about 24 hours. As a result, it does not matter if you stay 24 hours, 24 days, or 24 months, the decompression time is the same. Typical sats are 2-4 weeks on the bottom (plus decompression) or until the job is done. Many jobs last much longer so crews are swapped out through various chambers connected to the complex.

You hear about some habitat-based scientific saturation dives but they are relatively shallow and rare. Sat crews live in chambers on deck pressurized to their holding depth, typically at the shallow range of their working depth. They transfer to the work site via a diving bell, lock out, and typically spend 6-12 hours between crew changes. They all wear lightweight hats and hot water suits breathing HeO2 mixtures typically between .3 to .8 ATA O2, almost always using a closed-circuit surface-based recirculating system to conserve gas.

Search Saturation Diving on YouTube, there are lots of videos. I never realized that people might confuse the oldest diving gear (after breath-holding) with the most advanced and sophisticated diving. Here is an image of a typical North Sea saturation diving support vessel.

134830

She is 94 Meters long x 18 Meters wide, supports 18 divers in sat to 370 Meters (1,214 FSW) with two bells and a ROV (Remotely Operated Vehicle). Onboard gas is measured in hundreds of thousands of cubic feet.

Ahhh! You should have posted Chet Morrison's Sat vessel, complete with fireball and dead crew as they tried to cut into a charged natural gas pipeline. :)

---------- Post added March 4th, 2015 at 02:21 PM ----------

To get back to equalizing..... and a tender paying out umbilical: Real World Scenario (Sometimes)

It wasn't uncommon to jump off a pier, boat, oil rig. It also wasn't uncommon for the tender to throw the entire pile of umbilical in the water... so you dropped as fast as gravity would pull you. But that's okay, later in the dive, when it's time to ascend, the tender was going to pull you to the surface literally as fast as they possibly could. Exhale hard, hope you don't get an AGE. Thankfully you'd be in the chamber in under 5 minutes anyway.

I was always fortunate. I never had a problem equalizing. The only method I've ever used was the nose brace on the various KM hats. Or if you were in a Swindell or Desco, you could fit your fingers into the neck dam. But always the Valsalva. You get used to it. I miss my Superlite 27. I don't miss the work.

scjoe
March 4th, 2015, 04:30 PM
... in a boutique sort of way, and in very limited environs. I don't think anyone wants to see hordes of divers tromping around the reefs in that kind of gear ... it might work for a week or two, till the reefs got so trashed they wouldn't be worth seeing anymore.

That equipment was designed for workers who have to spend many hours at a time underwater ... not traveling vacationers with limited training and experience. Of course, just like some people who believe that cave diving or free diving equipment is the optimal solution for "any environment" ... so do some hardhat divers seem to believe that their gear of choice is the "best" for everyone. The reality is it's the best choice for the application it was designed for, and while it can be applied in a broader sense, that application comes with some drawbacks that have to be considered on a case-by-case basis ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I wasn't aware anyone was promoting it for Caribbean reef dives or as a replacement for scuba gear.

NWGratefulDiver
March 4th, 2015, 05:12 PM
I wasn't aware anyone was promoting it for Caribbean reef dives or as a replacement for scuba gear.

I wasn't aware anyone was promoting it as recreational scuba gear either ... but a couple folks in here did just that when I said it had nothing to do with scuba or recreational diving.

If you want to wear commercial dive gear for fun, go ahead ... it'll still have nothing to do with scuba or recreational diving.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

descent
March 4th, 2015, 05:36 PM
... If you want to wear commercial dive gear for fun, go ahead ... it'll still have nothing to do with scuba or recreational diving.

It will have nothing to do with the kind of recreational diving you do today. :)




[Surface-supplied] may not be "SCUBA," but it can be recreational diving. ... in a boutique sort of way, and in very limited environs.

Recreational surface-supplied diving: who would want to do it?

Lots of wreck divers would. I would happily go into sat to spend a couple of days on and in a big wreck, if I could do it for under $100K. [-]For an opportunity like that, I might even take a photography class first[/-]. No, let's be real. There are some things I would never do.

Real photographers and videographers would. The occasional treasure hunter would. Maybe a cutting-edge cave survey team or three. And those hard-to-categorize experiential tourists that keep selling us all their "used-once" gear out of closets that are full of "used-once" gear.

Akimbo
March 4th, 2015, 06:40 PM
Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don’t recall anyone promoting deep sea gear as a replacement for Scuba in recreational diving. Do you think it is unreasonable for me to even ask this question on Scubaboard? It would be pointless to ask it in the commercial forum since I was curious about terminology used by recreational divers.


Just curious. What phrase do recreational Scuba divers use to describe divers like this?...

Would you be upset if someone asked about a modern one-atmosphere suit like this?

Exosuit - Nuytco Research Ltd. (http://nuytco.com/products/exosuit/)
204130

NWGratefulDiver
March 5th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don’t recall anyone promoting deep sea gear as a replacement for Scuba in recreational diving. Do you think it is unreasonable for me to even ask this question on Scubaboard? It would be pointless to ask it in the commercial forum since I was curious about terminology used by recreational divers.



Would you be upset if someone asked about a modern one-atmosphere suit like this?

Exosuit - Nuytco Research Ltd. (http://nuytco.com/products/exosuit/)
204130

I think it's a reasonable question. I thought I gave you a reasonable answer ... it's attire used by underwater construction workers. When I said it has nothing to do with scuba or recreational diving you pointed me to NEDEG ... on whose website they refer to the gear you pictured in the OP as "commercial diving equipment" ... which is exactly my point. That they allow recreational divers to try out some gear doesn't make it recreational gear. It's like visiting a museum and trying on some of the attire used in the displays ... that wouldn't make it suitable casual attire. It's a boutique sort of experience ... except for those who have to use these tools for commercial use.

I wasn't attempting to challenge the legitimacy of your question ... I was attempting to provide the answer you asked for ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Carl_F
March 5th, 2015, 06:36 PM
... maybe you should contemplate for a moment what SCUBA stands for. Here's a hint ... it doesn't stand for "surface supplied"..

When was the last time you saw somebody diving in Cozumel or the Caymens in the rig you posted in the original post of this thread?

Last month in Grand Cayman.

Actually, it was more like this:


BandMask 18 | Kirby Morgan (http://www.kirbymorgan.com/products/bandmasks/bandmask-18)

204031

The individual was using a hard hat (similar to the above but complete hard shell around the head ... a Kirby Morgan) for recreational diving. He had an injury that prevented scuba using normal mask/regulator and the way he could dive was using the hard hat. He was using normal backmounted Al80 for air supply IIRC.

Carl

Akimbo
March 5th, 2015, 07:06 PM
…The individual was using a hard hat (similar to the above but complete hard shell around the head ... a Kirby Morgan) for recreational diving. He had an injury that prevented scuba using normal mask/regulator and the way he could dive was using the hard hat. He was using normal backmounted Al80 for air supply IIRC…

Interesting. Was he using the AL80 for his sole breathing gas or as a bailout in case of surface supplied gas failure? Was the hat something like this?

SuperLite 27 | Kirby Morgan (http://www.kirbymorgan.com/products/helmets/superlite-27)

I’m a volunteer with the Monterey Bay Veterans (http://mbv.org/) working on their Lift to Freedom Project (http://mbv.org/programs/freedom-dive-program/). I never considered accommodating a diver with facial injuries that would prevent them from using a half or full-face mask. The biggest problem with a hat with a neck dam is the weight. You need uncompromised neck muscles to handle the weight out of the water.

Carl_F
March 6th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Interesting. Was he using the AL80 for his sole breathing gas or as a bailout in case of surface supplied gas failure? Was the hat something like this?

SuperLite 27 | Kirby Morgan (http://www.kirbymorgan.com/products/helmets/superlite-27)

I’m a volunteer with the Monterey Bay Veterans (http://mbv.org/) working on their Lift to Freedom Project (http://mbv.org/programs/freedom-dive-program/). I never considered accommodating a diver with facial injuries that would prevent them from using a half or full-face mask. The biggest problem with a hat with a neck dam is the weight. You need uncompromised neck muscles to handle the weight out of the water.

It was something like the SuperLite 27 or 57. It wasn't surface supplied and the only gas that I recall was the Al80. I believe the injury was something that prevented equalization in water but he obviously could do so in air (otherwise even the helmet wouldn't work for him.) He didn't have compromised neck muscles and it did look like the neck dam would be an initial challenge to get used to.

I didn't see the hat in action so I don't know if he had a redundant bail out.

The biggest hurdle I can see for use in something like the Monterey Bay Veterans is the cost. At the shop I'm affiliated with, it's not clear that we would have the knowledge & skills to help a diver use one of these to accomodate an injury ... but you've got the experience to manage that if the cost element is addressed.

descent
March 6th, 2015, 12:44 PM
... The biggest hurdle I can see for use in something like the Monterey Bay Veterans is the cost. At the shop I'm affiliated with, it's not clear that we would have the knowledge & skills to help a diver use one of these to accomodate an injury ... but you've got the experience to manage that if the cost element is addressed.

Jared Berg at Monterey Bay Diving (http://www.montereybaydiving.com/) has very kindly provided a lot of support to the local GUE divers. Someone in his store may be able to answer questions about hats & masks in that application.

204253

Akimbo
March 6th, 2015, 12:52 PM
Carl_F

Thanks for the input. I'm not too comfortable putting anyone in the water in a lightweight hat on Scuba. A key design consideration on these hats is a virtually exhaustible primary umbilical supply plus an HP bailout bottle for an emergency. CO2 buildup is an issue due to increased dead airspace so periodic purging using the freeflow valve is common in normal operations. A lot of thought would have to be given to managing backup gas supplies and regulator failures.

Michael Guerrero
March 6th, 2015, 11:32 PM
First thing that came to mind was masochist.

Jared0425
March 7th, 2015, 11:07 PM
I had the opportunity to dive the MK 5. It leaked like a sieve and they said that once the water got past your shins to surface. If you fell over the water would rush to the helmet and drown you. Heard a few funny stories of arc welding with exposed wires.

Akimbo
March 8th, 2015, 12:39 PM
I had the opportunity to dive the MK 5. It leaked like a sieve and they said that once the water got past your shins to surface. If you fell over the water would rush to the helmet and drown you...

That’s not exactly right, unless your air supply also fails at the same time. I knew a few old-timers that would force their feet above their heads on the downline at the end of the dive to blow the water out of the exhaust valve. Trust me; nobody wants to carry all that water up the ladder. This casual attitude about maintaining suits (water-tight integrity) was/is a lot more common in warm water than cold.

The photo in the OP is of a Navy diver training in the Helium Hat. His suit is inflated so the tenders can do a soap test to fix expensive Helium leaks. Deep-sea drysuits definitely can be water-tight, it just takes a lot of patching.

Diver Dan 28
March 8th, 2015, 10:54 PM
I would call that the don't eat beans suit. Lol cool picture though and I'd love to experiance a dive in one, however I can't afford a dry suit yet so a copper spun helium hat may take a few decades....

Akimbo
March 9th, 2015, 10:51 AM
I would call that the don't eat beans suit...

You have no idea how insightful that observation is. The training barge in Second Class Diving School barge had some contaminated potable water tanks when I was there. Everyone's guts were affected; students and instructors. More than one guy had to take a fire hose to the inside of their suit. Good thing the compressors were big and the ventilation rates could be cranked up.

Belzelbub
March 9th, 2015, 11:04 AM
I know it's not entirely accurate. But in my head, when I see that suit, I immediately think of an old sponge diver suit. Just north of me is Tarpon Springs, FL. This city is the sponge diving mecca, at least around here. So, when I was growing up, I saw these suits associated with sponge diving, so that's the first thing I think of.

Akimbo
March 9th, 2015, 11:45 AM
I know it's not entirely accurate. But in my head, when I see that suit, I immediately think of an old sponge diver suit. Just north of me is Tarpon Springs, FL...

Actually, it is quite accurate. The sponge divers in Florida and Greece tended to favor the Seibe-Gorman style of hats with weights that hung off the breast plate. The Navy Mark V used a leather weight belt, but there isn’t that much functional difference between any of them. Several European manufactures made hats in this style. Here is an image of a Seibe-Gorman:

Doppler
March 9th, 2015, 01:48 PM
Just curious. What phrase do recreational Scuba divers use to describe divers like this?

134807

I was thinking more like “Heavy Gear” or “Deep Sea” as opposed to nuts, dinosaur, or historic. ;) For those interested, this is a US Navy Mark V Helium Hat.

BLOODY HARD WORK is what comes to mind immediately, mate!

scjoe
March 9th, 2015, 03:02 PM
Actually, it is quite accurate. The sponge divers in Florida and Greece tended to favor the Seibe-Gorman style of hats with weights that hung off the breast plate. The Navy Mark V used a leather weight belt, but there isn’t that much functional difference between any of them. Several European manufactures made hats in this style. Here is an image of a Seibe-Gorman:

I see that the diver has one of the old DESCO Navy knifes. Are those knives still in use? How well does a leather weight belt hold up over time?

Akimbo
March 9th, 2015, 03:55 PM
I see that the diver has one of the old DESCO Navy knifes. Are those knives still in use? How well does a leather weight belt hold up over time?

There was a lot of leather in the old deep sea rigs, including gaskets. It held up surprisingly well as long as it was maintained by coating it with neatsfoot oil.

Primitive as it may sound, leather gaskets do have one advantage — they aren’t turned to goo by petroleum products. Rubber gaskets would have been a huge problem during the Pearl Harbor salvage work right after the attack. There was 6" of bunker fuel oil floating in the harbor for months that the divers had to work through. Hoses are much harder rubber and more resistant to chemical attack.

That photo above is from the 1906 time-frame during work on the Winchester Cathedral. I seem to remember that the Seibe-Gorman Company was somehow involved with that project. I “suspect” that the knife was the current Seibe-Gorman model at the time and the US Navy copied the design, which is now still made by Desco. The newer knife design from Seibe I have seen uses a flat bronze sheath with a friction retainer.

I never actually saw one of these knives while I was in the Navy (early 1970s). I understand they were all snagged by senior people or used for comshaw (Navy slang for unofficial trading, especially for higher priorities like getting supplies or repairs faster).

Here is an image of Desco’s screw-in knife. That is a leather strap on the sheath.

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