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deepstops
November 22nd, 2012, 03:17 PM
I've had two people call me to say a vessel engaged in dive charters capsized going through Hillsboro Inlet today. Anyone know anything?


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Fishpie
November 22nd, 2012, 03:26 PM
There's a pic in the Sun Sentinel.......looks like it was a catamaran with outboards.
SFDH?

Zaixon
November 22nd, 2012, 03:43 PM
Just heard about this. Hope everyone is ok :-(

Jax
November 22nd, 2012, 03:50 PM
Dive Boat Capsized By Rogue Wave, Dozens Rescued From Water CBS Miami (http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/11/22/dive-boat-capsized-by-rogue-wave-dozens-rescued-from-water/)

---------- Post added November 22nd, 2012 at 12:53 PM ----------

One critical after dive boat capsizes off Pompano Beach - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/pompano-beach/fl-dive-boat-capsizes--20121122,0,1329050.story)

---------- Post added November 22nd, 2012 at 01:11 PM ----------

Coral Princess Dive & Snorkel Boat (http://www.southfloridadiving.com/boats/coral-princess.html) is the current rumor.

---------- Post added November 22nd, 2012 at 01:23 PM ----------

Next rumor: small craft advisory was in effect.

FritzCat66
November 22nd, 2012, 05:47 PM
Orlando Sentinel:
One dead after dive boat carrying 23 people capsizes off Pompano (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/fl-dive-boat-capsizes--20121122,0,3769827.story)

This was the South Florida Diving Headquarters boat. Commercial op, I've dived with them several times.

Jax
November 22nd, 2012, 05:50 PM
Thanks, Fritz . . . . you need to keep clicking the links, as they update. So sad.

voodoo36
November 22nd, 2012, 05:55 PM
Yes...confirmed that it was the Coral Princess and there has been 1 fatality.

tekkydiver
November 22nd, 2012, 07:28 PM
Tough day for trying maneuver the Princess through the Hillsboro Inlet. I wonder if the release forms will hold up?

Chad Carney
November 22nd, 2012, 08:42 PM
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I was kayaking in the intracoastal near the inlet and saw them tow the Coral Princess back into Hillsboro Bay. Then I followed Seatow to see what they were going to do with the upsidedown 45' Corinthian Catamaran. I saw the captain and mate at the BSO dock but couldn't talk to them. A sad Thanksgiving day on the water.

Chad

Nemrod
November 22nd, 2012, 09:16 PM
I am sorry to hear this and most particularly that there was a death. Very sad for everybody.

This inlet is known for large standing waves and often hazardous conditions for small craft even in otherwise generally benign conditions. Is it considered a navigable inlet by the CG? That is a large boat, must have been a big wave, they said a rogue wave, is that so?

I wish the best for all involved.

N

deeper thoughts
November 22nd, 2012, 09:47 PM
very sad

seadawg
November 22nd, 2012, 10:05 PM
Very sad. My thoughts are with everyone involved.


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bilsant
November 22nd, 2012, 10:29 PM
Deepest condolences for the injured and deceased divers, and a thought for everyone who even though they came out ok, were certainly traumatized by the experience. Also sorry for the owners and employees of SFDH....I've been on that boat a number of times and always had a positive experience with their operation.

Rough holiday....

joh
November 22nd, 2012, 10:51 PM
Deepest condolences for the injured and deceased divers, and thought for everyone who even though they came out ok, were certainly traumatized by the experience. Also sorry for the owners and employees of SFDH....I've been on that boat a number of times and always had a positive experience with their operation.

Rough holiday....


I have dived off that boat, and the identical catamaran boat SFDH operates, as well as the smaller Safari Diver sixpack boat, numerous times. Perhaps there was a mechanical issue. I remember my trips with SFDH and Capt. Dennis as professionally run, with personable and friendly treatment from the staff, and never any indication of any maintenance problems or issues (unlike certain other local dive operations). I will wait for the USCG findings to understand what happened. Right now, all affected individuals and their families, including the Captain and the SFDF staff, are in my prayers and thoughts this Thanksgiving evening. What a tragedy for all involved.

Hetland
November 23rd, 2012, 12:25 AM
A bit of Monday morning quarterbacking, but if that's the boat I think it is, I sure wouldn't be running trips in 5-7ft seas....

Fishpie
November 23rd, 2012, 05:17 AM
It's a very nasty inlet especially coming in on an outgoing tide even with just a small to moderate swell.
As Nemrod correctly pointed out standing waves compounded by a swell makes entering very tricky and boats need to time their runs between the waves.
Very easy to get broached which likely caused this capsize.

bilsant
November 23rd, 2012, 07:59 AM
I've been on that boat in over 7' seas and was quite comfortable...but remember holding my breath for a moment when we came out of the inlet...my reaction to how the ocean looked. The boat and Captain Dennis handled it beautifully that day and had us through the channel in no time.

I don't know what happened yesterday. I dove the beach in Hollywood a bit further south that morning and the surf wasn't more than 3', and was starting to flatten out as we were leaving.

Chad Carney
November 23rd, 2012, 10:38 AM
It's a very nasty inlet especially coming in on an outgoing tide even with just a small to moderate swell.
As Nemrod correctly pointed out standing waves compounded by a swell makes entering very tricky and boats need to time their runs between the waves.
Very easy to get broached which likely caused this capsize.

There are worse inlets in FL. Hillsboro Inlet slants SE to NW, so swells out of the NE are perpendicular to it.

It was a strong incoming near high tide as I paddled out to the Hillsboro Inlet, even a few hours later it was just barely incoming, when I took this last photo of SFDH and the sistership of the Coral Princess. Note the height of the deck above the seawall. You can see the high tide on the sea walls in some of my other pics too. Wind has been consistent NW to NNW.

Hurricane Sandy caused a lot of beach errosion which has changed the surf conditions as well. Surfers have been loving it.

Chad

deepstops
November 23rd, 2012, 10:55 AM
It was a strong incoming near high tide as I paddled out to the Hillsboro Inlet, even a few hours later it was just barely incoming, when I took this last photo of SFDH and the sistership of the Coral Princess. Note the height of the deck above the seawall. You can see the high tide on the sea walls in some of my other pics too. Wind has been consistent NW to NNW.

Chad

Chad's account is correct, it was an incoming tide with virtually glassy conditions near shore with about a 4' swell rolling in from the NE. This event just seems freakish to me. I've been out on a different Corinthian Cat in 5-8' conditions (Biscayne National Park many years ago) and it handled it quite well.

Fishpie
November 23rd, 2012, 11:48 AM
I have to agree, freakish.
Cats are very stable craft...up to the point that they aren't....
I'd rather be on a cat than some of the other dive boats that use that inlet.

The point made by Chad about Sandy moving things about may well have some relevance.

Chad Carney
November 23rd, 2012, 12:02 PM
Here's a few more pics from T-Day, note the sand bar in front of the jetty at a pretty high tide, that's very different.
And south of the inlet the beach is all but gone. Many of the north most homes had water in their yards & pools. The last one had the ocean cut through and blow out his seawall on the inside of Hillsboro Bay.

Ana
November 23rd, 2012, 12:23 PM
I have to agree, freakish.
Cats are very stable craft...up to the point that they aren't....
I'd rather be on a cat than some of the other dive boats that use that inlet.


I was wondering about the shape of the craft. The vessels I've worked off have always been mono-hulls, deep V or just big big. That is the inlet closest to my house so we use it regularly, what I have is a small 23' mono-haul. I've lost count of many times I've gone under the bridge, look out and just turn around because it looked like it wasn't going to be any fun.

But I've also heard cats are very stable, now looking at the vessel upside side down, the twin hulls are flat just a couple of feet bellow the water line. Is this a real Cat? to me it looks more like a modified pontoon vessel, I've seen smaller cats on trailers with hulls shaped like V's, I would say THOSE are very stable.

deepstops
November 23rd, 2012, 12:32 PM
According to the website for Corinthian, their 45' vessel hull draft is just 10" (not including the lower units on the outboards). Combined with the beam, in my experience, these vessels are generally very stable.


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Scubakevdm
November 23rd, 2012, 12:37 PM
What a tragedy.

---------- Post added November 23rd, 2012 at 11:42 AM ----------

Ana, they're sorta like giant pontoon boats, with fiberglass pontoons.

---------- Post added November 23rd, 2012 at 11:43 AM ----------

Jax
November 23rd, 2012, 12:44 PM
Nina Poppelsdorf, 41, died when the 45-foot Coral Princess catamaran dive boat was slammed by a rogue wave, causing the boat to capsize. Poppelsdorf was visiting South Florida from New Mexico with her nephew.

Woman Dies After Rogue Wave Capsizes Dive Boat CBS Miami (http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/11/22/dive-boat-capsized-by-rogue-wave-dozens-rescued-from-water/)

Jax
November 23rd, 2012, 12:49 PM
Authorities identified her as 54-year-old Nina Poppelsdorf. Medics pronounced her dead a short time after she was rushed to the hospital, said Dani Moschella, a Broward Sheriff's Office spokeswoman.
One dead after dive boat capsizes off Pompano Beach - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/broward/pompano-beach/fl-dive-boat-capsizes--20121122,0,1329050.story)

Wookie
November 23rd, 2012, 12:51 PM
This is a copy of a very similar incident that happened in Baltimore in 2004. It completely rewrote the rules for performing stability tests on pontoon boats, and indeed, caused the Coast Guard to reevaluate the weight of Americans, effecting the stability calculations of all inspected vessels. The Lady D was significantly smaller than the vessel in question, but didn't carry the dive gear, either. US rules state that, for every diver you have on board, you must reduce the number of passengers by 1/2, as they assume each diver carries 92.5 lbs of gear.

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2006/MAR0601.pdf

One of the things that can happen to pontoon boats that don't happen to true catamarans or monohulls is that if the boat is in a following sea, it lifts the stern and buries the front of ONE pontoon. If both pontoons bury, there is enough reserve buoyancy to bring them both back afloat. In the case of one pontoon pitch poling, though, the pontoon wants to keep heading down. Anyone who has pitch polled a hobie cat can attest. Keep the pontoon on the surface, life is good, but let it go under just a little bit and it's bad. A true catamaran has hull between the hulls, so even if you bury one side, the deeper you go, the more buoyancy is generated. With a pontoon boat, there is a platform between the hulls, and if you get it in the water, it works to drive the pontoon even deeper.

I wasn't there, so I can't comment on specifics, but I'd guess that they took a following wave not exactly on the stern. It raised the stern, but not squarely, pitch poling the boat.

Scubakevdm
November 23rd, 2012, 02:53 PM
I've never driven a Corinthian, never driven a boat of any kind through Hillsboro Inlet, and don't know how big the swell was down there that day. I do know that the coast guard doesn't wrap up investigations with "it was an unavoidable accident" too much, and I'll bet a Klondike bar that the captain will be crucified. I don't know the guy, but I'm sure he's suffering enough all by himself. My heart goes out to him and the victim's family, I'm sure there's a lot of pain on both sides of that fence.

bilsant
November 23rd, 2012, 03:02 PM
Other than they were released, is there any more word on the other divers initially transported to the hospital?

pensacolaracer
November 23rd, 2012, 03:08 PM
Bill, I was told all have been released but that was from someone who was onboard yesterday who was talking to frank.


Sent from 115 FSW.

Ana
November 23rd, 2012, 03:13 PM
As far as Hillsboro inlet, that is the only place I can honestly say I don't know what I don't know. I only go out when seas are small but you can't predict how are they going to be on the way back, I pay attention to not get close to the rocks, to be perpendicular to the waves, to have good distance from other boats, but it feels like there's always a ghost waiting for me to get distracted or something.
All the events on inlets are sudden, you always hear about a vessels just sinking or tipping over in a instant. I hate to be paranoid but is weird, seems like nothing for months/years.... then one day boom a vessel than goes in and out several times a day, every day capsizes... wtf?

bilsant
November 23rd, 2012, 04:16 PM
Bill, I was told all have been released but that was from someone who was onboard yesterday who was talking to frank.

Sent from 115 FSW.

Thank you

tddfleming
November 23rd, 2012, 06:02 PM
From my understanding these inlets create a current rip which creats these type of problems. The Cap. needs to have the understanding, experience and know-how to navitgate them. The navy at one point looked into the design of the Cats. for their large ships, which I assume would mean they are stable. Was talking with an ex-Marine that used to teach the Nav. and boat schools in the Marines and he mentioned this concept of the currents, high tides and such happening in these inlets. He also mentioned that it had happened in the Marine Corp and several guys were lost to this concept of the perfect conditons waters.

COWSskateGOOD
November 23rd, 2012, 07:37 PM
I feel for those affected, on thanksgiving of all days, could have been any of us on that boat. I am curious and am subscribing to see the report of what happens.

skimon
November 23rd, 2012, 07:58 PM
The Medical Examiner on Friday ruled the Thanksgiving Day death of a diver aboard a capsized boat a drowning. - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/fl-pompano-dive-boat-folo-20121123,0,6542055.story)

The above link has the full story in the Sun-Sentinel and below is some info quoted in the story on the conditions on Thanksgiving day:
By most accounts, Thursday was a beautiful day for a dive once you got in or out of the tight inlet with its rocky, jagged borders.

Although it was a cool, clear and sunny day, Thursday saw extremely rough seas, generating what forecasters call "row waves" of up to 13 feet. "If that ship hit one of the row waves, I can see why it flipped over," said meteorologist Barry Baxter of the National Weather Service in Miami. Baxter said a mix of weather factors conspired to produce high seas and big waves, starting with strong winds, gusting to 25 mph or more. Because the winds
were blowing to the south, they clashed with the north-flowing Gulf Stream current, kicking up the seas. Additionally, large swells developed as a result of a strong low-pressure system off the Mid-Atlantic coast, further building up the ocean. When rough seas move across the Hillsboro Inlet, it can turn into a "drowning machine," said Jim Lushine, a retired weather service forecaster. "The problem is that the inlet faces to the southeast. When very strong
northeast waves and swells occur, the inlet can be very dangerous," he said. He added, "Local marine people in that area know how dangerous the inlet can
be and it's a shame that this boat went out under these hazardous conditions."

Superlyte27
November 23rd, 2012, 10:14 PM
Yes, Corinthians are very stable boats. I have operated many trips as a 100 Ton Captain
Yes, more than likely the Corinthian pitch poled and a wave forced the stern of the boat ass over teacup (aka stern over bow).

But what do I know, I'm just a 100 Ton Captain with experience on Corinthians and a REAL commercial diver (not a hull scrubber, but the Gulf of Mexico oil rig type).

HEHE.... sorry, i'm abnoxious as always.

deepstops
November 23rd, 2012, 10:33 PM
In the meantime, does anyone know the background of the unfortunate woman?

Visiting from New Mexico. That's all I know.




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Hetland
November 23rd, 2012, 10:41 PM
She was ID'ed in the press. A scientist that dealt with radiation standards in the workplace. A relative from the NE had traveled down specifically to go diving with her out of Pompano.

SC_Hoaty
November 23rd, 2012, 10:49 PM
In the meantime, does anyone know the background of the unfortunate woman?

From this article It was so scary, she came up limp: Mother killed as freak wave capsizes tourist boat on holiday cruise | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237228/It-scary-came-limp-Mother-killed-freak-wave-capsizes-tourist-boat-holiday-cruise.html)

She was a manager at Sandia National Laboratories, one of the Department of Energy labs.

Hetland
November 23rd, 2012, 10:55 PM
New Mexico woman dies when Fla. dive boat capsizes - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/mexico-woman-dies-fla-dive-boat-capsizes-112843586.html)




New Mexico woman dies when Fla. dive boat capsizes
By SUZETTE LABOY | Associated Press – 4 hrs ago




MIAMI (AP) — A diver from New Mexico who died in a Thanksgiving Day boating accident was a manager at one of the nation's leading research laboratories who was in Florida for a holiday dive trip with her nephew, authorities said Friday.
The Broward County Medical Examiner ruled Friday that Nina Poppelsdorf, 54, drowned after Thursday when a large wave flipped over a 45-foot catamaran carrying her and nearly two-dozen others.


The Sandia Park, N.M., woman died at a hospital after the Coral Princess capsized, said Broward Sheriff's Office spokeswoman Dani Moschella. Witnesses said the boat was approaching the Hillsboro Inlet in Pompano Beach when a wave 8 to 10 feet high flipped the twin-hulled craft.
Poppelsdorf was in Florida with her nephew, who is from Pennsylvania. "They just went on this fun trip together to just do dives," Moschella said. "So this is especially tragic that it was on Thanksgiving and it ended in tragedy."


Poppelsdorf was a senior manager of the radiation protection, industrial hygiene and safety center at Sandia National Laboratories, lab spokeswoman Heather Clark said. She was hired in August 1992 at the lab, a federal research and development center.
"She was recently promoted to senior manager and was well-respected by her peers and staff alike. Her contributions to improving safety at Sandia are numerous and she will be missed as both a member of the Sandia family and as a wonderful person," said Sandia Environment, Safety & Health director Sid Gutierrez, her supervisor.


Darrell Fong, a Sandia Labs safety engineering manager who worked with Poppelsdorf, said she was admired for her professionalism and easily identified by her laugh. "She had a great laugh. Everyone could recognize her laughter. They'd say, 'Oh, there's Nina.'" Fong said.


Poppelsdorf was a leader of a Sandia team that helped in the response to the crisis at Japan's Fukushima nuclear plant after the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami left several reactors there without cooling water, Fong said. He also said Poppelsdorf was a certified diving instructor.
The Coral Princess is a Corinthian catamaran owned by South Florida Diving Headquarters in Pompano Beach. A phone message left Friday by The Associated Press for the owner of the boat was not immediately returned.


Three of the 23 people on the boat were treated and released. Most of them were from out of town on vacation, authorities said
Officials said nearby boaters jumped into the water to pull people to safety. Pompano Beach Fire Rescue workers used personal watercraft to get to the site. The U.S. Coast Guard and other state and local agencies assisted in the rescue.
The accident remains under investigation.
___
Associated Press writer Bob Christie in Phoenix, Ariz., contributed to this story.

SC_Hoaty
November 23rd, 2012, 10:56 PM
And from this article The Medical Examiner on Friday ruled the Thanksgiving Day death of a diver aboard a capsized boat a drowning. - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/fl-pompano-dive-boat-folo-20121123,0,6542055.story)

She taught basic open water for 6 years.

Wookie
November 23rd, 2012, 10:59 PM
My ex-wife worked with her at Sandia.... Small world.

joh
November 23rd, 2012, 11:01 PM
Thanks Wookie, this is helpful. One of the news articles (I believe the Sun-Sentinel) includes an account of one of the passengers which describes the "rogue" wave washing over the stern.

Codefox
November 24th, 2012, 12:36 AM
I was so stunned when I saw the Coral Princess on the news because of how often I've been out with SFDH this year. Those guys are just some of the best crews I've ever been out with. Such a terrible tragedy when something like this happens and its sounds like it was a total freak of nature that caused it. I can't imagine what the family and crews are going though.

The story mentions all of the people who dove in to save the victims. Sounds like people really came together out there.

Jasonmh
November 24th, 2012, 01:10 AM
The woman who died was from my LDS. She was a great person, what a shame.

zaaddough
November 24th, 2012, 03:56 AM
http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51952

I was on the trip, and posted an account on TDS.

Frank, you were spot on in your analysis. It pitch-poled. It was a very stable riding boat, but once one of the front edges went under there was no hope.

waterpirate
November 24th, 2012, 08:30 AM
I am so sorry that this occured. It was very fortunate that not more people were injured, and deeply saddened at the loss. That inlet can be nasty and being on a CAT allways gives me the willy's, warranted or not. As Frank pointed out about the Hobie's, we used to say if you have NOT flipped one endo style, you are taking up to much room on the course! lol

I hope all at SFDC can move past all this.
Eric

sportxlh
November 24th, 2012, 09:13 AM
The Deco Stop (http://thedecostop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51952)

I was on the trip, and posted an account on TDS.

Frank, you were spot on in your analysis. It pitch-poled. It was a very stable riding boat, but once one of the front edges went under there was no hope.
zaaddough: I'm sorry to hear you went through this, sorry to hear about the diver that passed away and sorry for the crew and staff at SFDH: I've been out with them a bunch of times in the past few years and their big boats always seemed so nice and stable and the captains seemed to be very decent seamen. Weird things can sometimes happen with marine conditions especially at some of the smaller inlets as happened in the Jupiter inlet two years ago when the experienced fishing boat captain fell off his boat as it nearly rolled over. I wonder if you could copy and paste your account on SB. I was not able to access you post on the decostop site

DiverGirl1972
November 24th, 2012, 09:34 AM
Zaaddough's post from the Deco Stop:

I've been lurking for quite awhile, but haven't posted before. Never had something worthwhile to contribute to the forum.

I was on the fateful trip. I flew into Ft Lauderdale to do a few days of diving. Went out with PDC on Wednesday, to the Miller Lite. Great day for diving, though a bit rough each way through the inlet. Thursday PDC didn't get enough interest to schedule a trip, so I went out on the Coral Princess. Leaving the harbour was without incident. Seas were surprisingly calm, considering the small craft advisory. Nobody on board was sick. First dive on Abbey Too had moderate vis and surge. Second dive (didn't catch name) had more surge and worse vis.

Boat then headed in, with again fairly smooth ride. Got to mouth of inlet and captain told everybody to sit down. We were in neutral while he waited for the right moment to dash in. A very large wave hit our starboard aft corner. Boat pitched forward on the diagonal, with some water coming in over back. Forward port corner went under. We then instantly rolled over from starboard to port. Not enough time for anyone to react. Some were hit by tanks, others by the large dry boxes that shifted.

Immediately we were in the water. Family members anxiously calling out for missing. A few people were trapped under the boat in air pocket under the glass bottom. They were quickly gotten out. One woman did not make it out. She was on the starboard side in middle of boat, with roof over her and captains console in front of her. Amazing, really, there were not more serious injuries.

Within minutes we were surrounded by rescue craft. Numerous fishing, law enforcement, and tow boats immediately began pulling us out of the water. Some swam to the nearby shore. My thanks again to all who helped us out, in a very confusing and dangerous situation.

I was one of Nina's dive buddies on the trip, along with her nephew. She spent the dives taking pictures. She was obviously a very good diver. I didn't know her well, but am saddened by her loss. My sympathies go out to her family.

MMM
November 24th, 2012, 12:13 PM
All posts related to a side debate have been deleted or edited. Please keep in mind that this is the A&I forum which has specific rules and a need to stay on the topic at hand. Marg, ScubaBoard Senior Moderator

Magnolia3
November 24th, 2012, 12:25 PM
It's a very nasty inlet especially coming in on an outgoing tide even with just a small to moderate swell.
As Nemrod correctly pointed out standing waves compounded by a swell makes entering very tricky and boats need to time their runs between the waves.
Very easy to get broached which likely caused this capsize.

Not to mention that East Coast Fla has long had a rep for rogue waves in the inlets. What the above poster says is correct. We can armchair analyze till hel freezes over and in the end it will be just what it is a horribly tragic accident. One death is too much, but that so many were there to render aid prevented more tragedy.

I am on several chatboards devoted to sailing/cruising. There is a current thread on the nature of how the inlet has changed current wise since Sandy's passing ongoing on one. Cats are a generally stable platform. However, any boat can pitchpole. This was not a "preventable tragedy" in the sense that there was some kind of error..this is one can be laid, in my mind, on mother nature's doorstep.

My sympathies... horrible thing to happen.

dumpsterDiver
November 24th, 2012, 01:15 PM
Zaaddough's post from the Deco Stop:

I've been lurking for quite awhile, but haven't posted before. Never had something worthwhile to contribute to the forum.

I was on the fateful trip. I flew into Ft Lauderdale to do a few days of diving. Went out with PDC on Wednesday, to the Miller Lite. Great day for diving, though a bit rough each way through the inlet. Thursday PDC didn't get enough interest to schedule a trip, so I went out on the Coral Princess. Leaving the harbour was without incident. Seas were surprisingly calm, considering the small craft advisory. Nobody on board was sick. First dive on Abbey Too had moderate vis and surge. Second dive (didn't catch name) had more surge and worse vis.

Boat then headed in, with again fairly smooth ride. Got to mouth of inlet and captain told everybody to sit down. We were in neutral while he waited for the right moment to dash in. A very large wave hit our starboard aft corner. Boat pitched forward on the diagonal, with some water coming in over back. Forward port corner went under. We then instantly rolled over from starboard to port. Not enough time for anyone to react. Some were hit by tanks, others by the large dry boxes that shifted.

Immediately we were in the water. Family members anxiously calling out for missing. A few people were trapped under the boat in air pocket under the glass bottom. They were quickly gotten out. One woman did not make it out. She was on the starboard side in middle of boat, with roof over her and captains console in front of her. Amazing, really, there were not more serious injuries.

Within minutes we were surrounded by rescue craft. Numerous fishing, law enforcement, and tow boats immediately began pulling us out of the water. Some swam to the nearby shore. My thanks again to all who helped us out, in a very confusing and dangerous situation.

I was one of Nina's dive buddies on the trip, along with her nephew. She spent the dives taking pictures. She was obviously a very good diver. I didn't know her well, but am saddened by her loss. My sympathies go out to her family.

Wow, so the captain had the boat sitting idle in the water completely stopped near the mouth of the inlet and the boat just got rolled by a wave when he was sitting there completely stopped and not underway?

Sounds like he should have stopped further offshore and got everyone situated, before entering into the dangerous shallow water area. Defintely don't want to be completely stopped and sitting vulnerable with no ability to maneuver the boat in the shallow area....Is that correct?

Also, isn't pitch poleing the result of being underway, a large wave over taking from the stern, accelerating the vessel as it slides down the front face of the wave, causing the captain to loose steerage and then the bow goes under, the boat shifts left or right, and then the wave lifts the vessel from the rear and the side and flips it?

I've been on boats where that very nearly happened twice..coming in inlets... with outgoing tides and waves etc... As far as I know, the only way to survive this occurance is to have enough power to get ahead of the wave and keep steerage and/or be lucky.

However the description of the incident above is not consistent with this type of situation... sitting dead in the water and getting rolled from the side is different.. yes?

John from the burg
November 24th, 2012, 02:37 PM
Hummm, terrible stuff.

Wookie
November 24th, 2012, 03:05 PM
Wow, so the captain had the boat sitting idle in the water completely stopped near the mouth of the inlet and the boat just got rolled by a wave when he was sitting there completely stopped and not underway?

Sounds like he should have stopped further offshore and got everyone situated, before entering into the dangerous shallow water area. Defintely don't want to be completely stopped and sitting vulnerable with no ability to maneuver the boat in the shallow area....Is that correct?

Also, isn't pitch poleing the result of being underway, a large wave over taking from the stern, accelerating the vessel as it slides down the front face of the wave, causing the captain to loose steerage and then the bow goes under, the boat shifts left or right, and then the wave lifts the vessel from the rear and the side and flips it?

I've been on boats where that very nearly happened twice..coming in inlets... with outgoing tides and waves etc... As far as I know, the only way to survive this occurance is to have enough power to get ahead of the wave and keep steerage and/or be lucky.

However the description of the incident above is not consistent with this type of situation... sitting dead in the water and getting rolled from the side is different.. yes?

I reiterate that I wasn't there, and have no experience with Corinthians, but I do with Hobie Cats, a much smaller version of a pontoon boat. The eyewitness didn't say they were stopped or dead in the water, he said they were in neutral, as I would expect a Captain to do when facing a potentially hazardous bar. let's say for sake of argument that the rogue wave was 8 feet tall, not unheard of at that particular channel entrance. The boat has engines throttled back so the skipper can see how the water is moving. He's looking forward, not really paying close attention to what's coming up behind him. The wave lifts the starboard stern and the 48 foot Corinthian Buries the port pontoon. The deck is at a heel angle of 15-20 degrees. The submerged hull generates buoyancy and force back towards the stern, and the loose stuff breaks free of its tiedowns and shifts forward. 21 passengers, 43 scuba cylinders, dive gear, lifejacket boxes, and coolers all head towards the port forward corner. Meanwhile, the wave passes under, but the next one lifts the now lighter stern and flips the boat.

I don't know Hillsboro inlet, but when I have come through Jupitor inlet on a ebb tide, we had some pretty big waves at the inlet for an otherwise calm sea. When I went into Mayport, I had standing 8 footers against a 4 knot current. I pulled back to give it a good look and see how I would make safe passage, the waves/current/flow picked the 100 foot 69 ton displacement Spree up and flipped her sideways in about 10 seconds. I didn't have passengers or scuba gear onboard, but I can easily see that if I had, none of them would have stayed put, even if we had been ready for it.

Its just a sad series on events.

zaaddough
November 24th, 2012, 03:33 PM
We were flipped sideways by a single wave that lifted us from starboard stern. Subsequent waves caused overturned boat to lurch toward those of us I'm water.

Ana
November 24th, 2012, 04:00 PM
How about sharing some of your navigation knowledge?

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/handling-safety/439880-dos-donts-inlets.html#post6557391

shmuggy
November 24th, 2012, 05:06 PM
I live on a lake in Central Virginia and a rogue wave killed an experienced, veteran conservation officer on patrol on the lake last year. So many times when we go out on a dive boat everything is calm and then next thing you know, the current changes, the winds pick up and everything gets dicey. Mother Nature can do some freaky things. The Coast Guard will do a thorough investigation and deal with anything that needs to be addressed so we should wait and see what they say. I have been out with this dive shop and thought they did a good job and were mindful of the safety of their passengers and crew. My heart goes out to everyone affected by this tragedy.

tddfleming
November 24th, 2012, 06:16 PM
Lake Anna? He was near shore hit his head and fell overboard. It was a boat wake.

Glock Diver
November 24th, 2012, 07:34 PM
A real shame.

I've been on the Coral Princess with SFDH, and found their captains and crews to be professional and competent. I've also used Hillsboro Inlet numerous times in my own boat, a 23' mono-hull, and have found it to be pretty dicey even on a calm day. I've had a few close calls there.

Those Corinthian Catamarans aren't exactly true catamarans; they draw 10"-12" of water, which is less than many pontoon boats. They're not the easiest to maneuver underway, and are easily affected by wind-- much more so than traditional mono-hull craft.

Scubakevdm
November 24th, 2012, 07:53 PM
Sounds like he was watching the ground swell, outside the break waiting for the big set to end only to find out that he was watching a small set. Suddenly, the big set arrives, and since it breaks in much deeper water, he's in the surf zone instead of sitting outside it. The wave quarters him, port pontoon digs in and it rolls him on the spot. I don't think that boat has any kind of fly bridge, so reading the swell must be pretty tough. I could totally see that happening.

---------- Post added November 24th, 2012 at 06:55 PM ----------

Magnolia3
November 24th, 2012, 09:05 PM
Wow, so the captain had the boat sitting idle in the water completely stopped near the mouth of the inlet and the boat just got rolled by a wave when he was sitting there completely stopped and not underway?

Sounds like he should have stopped further offshore and got everyone situated, before entering into the dangerous shallow water area. Defintely don't want to be completely stopped and sitting vulnerable with no ability to maneuver the boat in the shallow area....Is that correct?

NO that is not correct... have you ever piloted a boat into East Coast Fla inlets? It is not just tidal currents, but you get cross currents and wind born waves that just spring up. Boats rarely come to a full stop, usually idle speed to assess the current and the best way to get in the inlet with the current. One is busy looking forward, not backward to assess the forward situation.



Also, isn't pitch poleing the result of being underway, a large wave over taking from the stern, accelerating the vessel as it slides down the front face of the wave, causing the captain to loose steerage and then the bow goes under, the boat shifts left or right, and then the wave lifts the vessel from the rear and the side and flips it?

Yes that is the classical definition of the pitchpoling.



I've been on boats where that very nearly happened twice..coming in inlets... with outgoing tides and waves etc... As far as I know, the only way to survive this occurance is to have enough power to get ahead of the wave and keep steerage and/or be lucky.

Nice theory... there are a lot of variables in that kind of situation. Each incident is totally unique unto itself. It depends on a multitude of factors.. As you said "enough power" that is not going to happen in a sailboat, esp a smaller one with a 9.9 OB on back or a catamaran such as the one in this incident.

I will say this again... its easy to armchair analyze if you were not there, not the captain and have a bent for critique. It was a tragic accident. In this case, one that more than likely could not be avoided.

I am going to wait for the USCG report before I criticize, if at all. Until then my sympathies to all involved.

For those critics out there. I am sure the Captain will go to his grave second guessing himself and asking what he could have done differently to have avoided this tragedy.

releck97
November 24th, 2012, 09:08 PM
My sister was on the beach right after this incident happened and took some photos of the surf. It was certainly rough at the beach. She phoned me and told me about the search and rescue operation going on. I have dived out of Pompano Beach more than any other place in the world. Hillsboro Inlet is normally tricky at best. There are 2 permanent dredges constantly removing sand from the channel. The captain of the Coral Princess is a seasoned veteran and has timed the swells and waves before entering the inlet more than he can probably count. I have to surmise that Sandy changed the dynamics on the floor and the captain was taken completely by surprise. SFDH is a top notch organization run exceptionally well by the owners.
This is a tragic event. It sounds to me like a freak of nature that caused it. Hopefully, the USCG will not share in the fault on this one like they did in Baltimore when they certified the stricken vessel as a "sister ship" to a larger and more stable vessel.
My thoughts, prayers and condolences to all affected by this accident.

Scott L
November 24th, 2012, 09:14 PM
I highly doubt any charter operator in Palm Beach County ventured out of an inlet that day. Nuts!

Jax
November 24th, 2012, 09:29 PM
Interesting that so many feel the need to pin blame on someone . . .Sometimes things just happen.

releck97
November 24th, 2012, 09:52 PM
Interesting that so many feel the need to pin blame on someone . . .

Sometimes, things just happen.

Although I agree with you, the USCG and NTSB will probably determine something different.

dumpsterDiver
November 24th, 2012, 11:11 PM
NO that is not correct... have you ever piloted a boat into East Coast Fla inlets? It is not just tidal currents, but you get cross currents and wind born waves that just spring up. Boats rarely come to a full stop, usually idle speed to assess the current and the best way to get in the inlet with the current. One is busy looking forward, not backward to assess the forward situation.



Yes that is the classical definition of the pitchpoling.



Nice theory... there are a lot of variables in that kind of situation. Each incident is totally unique unto itself. It depends on a multitude of factors.. As you said "enough power" that is not going to happen in a sailboat, esp a smaller one with a 9.9 OB on back or a catamaran such as the one in this incident.

I will say this again... its easy to armchair analyze if you were not there, not the captain and have a bent for critique. It was a tragic accident. In this case, one that more than likely could not be avoided.

I am going to wait for the USCG report before I criticize, if at all. Until then my sympathies to all involved.

For those critics out there. I am sure the Captain will go to his grave second guessing himself and asking what he could have done differently to have avoided this tragedy.


I was not there and was simply trying to interpret what the witness (passenger) experienced. I don't know what happened, and I have been out of that inlet once.

However, I have made many, hairy inlet runs with outgoing tide and seas etc. I know it can be dangerous and tricky and there really is no substitute for power. On the other hand, the description of being rolled when the boat is in neutral is very different than a situation where a captain tries to time the sets, gets into position and makes the run.

Not that I am an expert on this at all, but you need to have your head on a swivel and be looking behind you as much as forward. As I mentioned, twice I have been EXTREMELY close to flipping large boats 35-40 foot single hull boats.. and people got hurt, tanks went flying etc.

I have seen those boats before, they are wide and I consider them to be more of a pontoon boat than a real Cat, but they look large, with very limited power and they do not have a big bow that will provide a huge increase in buoyancy as it submerges. I stand by my comment that there is no substitute for power and this means that some vessels are vastly more vulnerable than others in these types of following seas, standing waves, outgoing tide and then superposition of incoming waves.

Once the boat gets in a particular situation, there is not a whole lot that can be done AND it happens very, very fast...

Scubakevdm
November 25th, 2012, 01:14 AM
NO that is not correct... have you ever piloted a boat into East Coast Fla inlets? It is not just tidal currents, but you get cross currents and wind born waves that just spring up. Boats rarely come to a full stop, usually idle speed to assess the current and the best way to get in the inlet with the current. One is busy looking forward, not backward to assess the forward situation.



Let me preface my remarks by saying that they are not meant to be mean spirited, and I add for the sake of those who feel that taking this thing apart is useless armchair speculation, that discussion regarding the incident may very well save someone else's life or property. Even if the discussion is speculation, a ton of knowledge and experience can be passed on to others who may one day find it very, very useful. While I agree that blaming has no place in this discussion, trying to understand what happened and how to avoid tragedies like this in the future does.

I don't really understand some your remarks regarding piloting East Coast inlets, and understand but believe to be dangerous others.

Here is from start to finish how I navigate Boynton Inlet in a groundswell.

The process starts before the trip with a visit to the inlet. I look at the inlet and ask myself the question "If I lose power in the middle of the surf zone, do these waves look big enough to roll my boat over?" If the answer is yes, we scrub the mission. If the answer is no, I look at the status of the tides at the times when we'll be navigating the inlet and make an educated guess at what the inlet will look like with those tide states. If my mind's eye pictures my boat rolling if I lose power then, we scrub the mission.

Now Mother Nature does not always get the memo from my mind's eye and I sometimes have found myself in a very tricky situation. A large ground sea is very dangerous if you cant keep up with the waves. Little center consoles have enough speed that they can even run parallel to the swell in the trough the whole way in. I don't have that kind of speed. My boat's good for about 17 knots with a full load. I have to ride perpendicular to the swell and in the trough. This requires that my boat fit in the trough, in other words enough space between the swells, and that I can keep up with the swell. The wave to come in behind is one that occurs just after the big set comes through. It is very, very important at this point to understand what is happening and what is about to happen as far as the groundswell is concerned.

It is to this end that I will sit idle in neutral outside of the break and try to glean information about the bottom by studying the breaking waves. What I surmise from this will determine the path over the bar that i take. After that I am constantly looking both behind me and up the beach to identify the big set. Which one it is, and how many waves are in it. Once I've figured it out, I let the set pass and throttle up. I put my bow just behind one of the next couple of waves after the set (the smallest available) clench my buttocks and power over the bar totally concentrating on staying exactly in the same place relative to the back of that small wave I'm riding behind. I am utterly unconcerned with any sort of wind chop which would be to me, be like stopping to tie your shoes so that you don't trip and fall when a freight train is barreling down on you. I traverse the bar, unclench and light a smoke once my hands stop shaking.

I'd like to think that this is how most captain's are doing it, and that this is, in fact what the sfdh captain was doing. The passenger remarked that they were idling waiting to time the set or something to that effect, which makes sense to me. It's what I would have been doing too.

The media reported that a "rogue wave" (a term which I think they used incorrectly in order to sensationalize the story) popped up out of nowhere. This also makes sense because groundswells are kinda flat, wide waves until the water gets shallow enough that they stand up. With no fly bridge it's much harder to see the big sets because you're so low that you can't see past the small ones. You don't see the big one until it's literally the next wave. It would appear to have "come from nowhere".

Because the depth that causes a wave to break is proportionate to its size, larger waves break farther from shore than smaller ones. This can cause problems, because in order to understand what's happening on the sand bar, you need to be kinda close to it. Especially if you're low to the water.

There have been more than a few times that I've been watching the break from what i thought was a safe distance, looked behind me and realized that I was about to be in a very bad spot. I had the advantage of looking out from 13 or 14 feet up in the air, and being able to see 10 or 15 waves back. If you can only see one wave back, there really aren't gonna be too many options if you find yourself in a situation like this, because by the time you realize what's up, you're already done unless you have a very fast boat.

Is this a definitive answer to what happened that day? No, not as far as I know. Could these circumstances lead to the tragic events of Thanksgiving? Absolutely, in my opinion. Is it worth discussing? I hope so.

Lastly I would like to agree with your point regarding sfdh's captain. I don't know what I would do if this had happened to me, except sit there and wish there was some way to go back and do it over, some way to make it end differently. I really feel for that guy who will live the rest of his life tormented by that day, as much as I feel for the family of the vicitim.

releck97
November 25th, 2012, 09:51 AM
Wow Kevin, I can picture exactly what you wrote. I've been out of both inlets (as well as Boca). In my opinion, Hillsboro is the trickiest. The captain in question has waited out many sets before bringing his boat in. He KNEW that inlet. I can only imagine that Sandy changed the rules and he didn't take that into consideration. Thank you for sharing this information.

Orlando Eric
November 25th, 2012, 11:24 AM
I do not have the experience and knowledge of many posting here but in my personal experience on that specific boat I would not call it "very stable". Years ago I specifically remember being out on it and having just stowed my gear I used a small bungee to fasten my bag to the support rail of the seat. Shortly after the little pontoon boat stuffed a wave and put a little one foot wash over bow to stern washing away all kinds of loose gear (fins, mask, snorkels, towels). This is not what I'd call a Catamaran it is a Pantoon boat and they absolutley float different. That outfit is great for large groups on nice summer days the deck space is awesome but I did not dig it much on pitching seas the dozen or so times I dove it.

Reck Diver
November 25th, 2012, 09:41 PM
I've had a lot of experience with the Hillsboro, Boca and Boynton Inlets. Hillsboro is the "least treacherous" of the three, Boynton more so the Boca.

When it comes to weather and boating in this area, it's not uncommon to plan a trip around the tide. I have had trips where I have approached the mouth of the inlet and decided to "try another day." I have fished tournaments where I went out in conditions I normally would stay home; only to appear at the weigh-in due to adequate power combined with a forgiving hull design. I have also been out at times with an outgoing tide, northeast wind and a big north swell, I knew it would be unsafe to come in one of these inlets and took the time to motor down to Port Everglades or north to the Palm Beach Inlet. It's better to come home a couple of hours late then have sea tow dragging your inverted hull.

You can look at this most recent incident and dissect it any way you choose, but without the unlikely event of some type of mechanical failure, the Captain of the vessel is clearly at fault. The whys, and hows make little difference. The Captain failed to negotiate the inlet and a person is dead. With 23 aboard, he is lucky the number is not higher.

So for me, the question we should be asking is.... How do you know if your captain is competent? What kind of record does he have? Has he been involved in any incidents recently.

We have Captains in south Florida that have lost their entire complement of divers due to the inability to judge wind and current.

We have Captains that while diving, abandoned their dive partner to have them found four days later by a fishing charter.

We have Captains (in this case fishing, not diving) come up to the dock carrying a 6 pack with 4 already gone.

You can't board a dive boat down here with out signing a release that absolves the operator of any and all wrong doing. So how can the average person know if they are going out with a Captain who is truly safe?

Here's a list my do's

I have learned, when I'm on a boat other then mine (which is not very often); I trust no one.

I will never board a vessel with an inboard engine that is powered by gasoline.

I will ask the captain questions.

I will know where the life jackets and fire extinguishers are located.

I will know in advance what I will do in an emergency situation.

I am always on the alert coming or going out the inlet.

SangP
November 26th, 2012, 02:31 AM
This is really sad. Hope that things work out well soon.

scubadada
November 26th, 2012, 05:04 PM
Not knowing all that much about boats and their operation, I do the best I can to stay safe, I go out with Kevin and Alex, Underwater Explorers, see #67

Chad Carney
November 27th, 2012, 01:36 AM
This thread is very related to the "Boat capsized in pompano beach? (http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/accidents-incidents/439762-boat-capsized-pompano-beach.html)" thread so I thought I'd put it close by it. I think it's about how an event like this touches us and makes us wonder.

Thursday I was kayaking out to the inlet and arrived maybe an hour after the accident, and started taking photos and video clips of the waves and the flipped over hull as she was towed back through the pass. Fascinated and impressed by Seatow's salvage skills in these adverse conditions, I followed all the way to Hidden Harbor Marina where they flipped her back over.

That first day all I found were floating packages of cheese crackers. The dive boat always had boxes of them aboard. I took more pics & vids of the surfers before sundown. For three days there were awesome wave sets breaking a half mile offshore all along the Pompano Drop-off. (pic.)

Next I found the fin. It's a classic vented powerfin and not the kind some snorkeler would lose on the huge new inlet sandbar. (next pics.) I'm sure it came from the Princess and I hope somebody has the mate and calls me to ID it. It would be great to return it.

I've dove on the Coral Princess many times and her sistership Aquaview as well. I like all the people at South Florida Diving. It gave me a funny feeling to find some torn pieces of the sunbrella top scattered along the beach. Friday I found the badly broken long seat/gear box from the Coral Princess where it washed ashore, (see pic) and also where many of the 22 survivors were brought to land by rescuers. I didn't know Nina Poppelsdorf but she was a diving instructor like me, and even though I had no clue what to do with it, I wanted to do something. Late today I pushed it up to a close dune and filled it with sand and coral rocks. That should keep it from going anywhere. Next I attached the wreck photo and a brief story to a cross, then a plant and a rose. It pales to the Copenhagen but Pompano Beach now has one more shipwreck memorial. Pics.

Funny thing... while I was finishing a tourist asked if there was a body in there! WTF? To me it's clearly a boat seat gear box, but after stepping back it does look a little coffin-like. I'll add a few dive flag stickers and some more colorful plants to make it a little less goulish.

If you're out by the 16th St N Ocean Park, it's about 75 yards to the north by the two benches.

Chad

bowlofpetunias
November 27th, 2012, 06:50 AM
Thanks for some great information especially Scubakevdm Lots to think about and learn here. Tragic price to pay but hopefully some good will come of it that will keep people safer in the future.

danvolker
November 27th, 2012, 09:23 AM
I used to have a 34 foot Regal, a "booze cruiser" I modified for diving with friends....I used to use the Boynton Inlet freqeuntly when I kept the boat in Lantana at Loggerhead, so when I first got the boat, I began practicing going in and out of the Boynton Inlet in small, then medium, the large, then storm sized waves....I had good advice from some of the best dive boat Captains on what to do, and reading the "sets" became second nature....For my boat, the really imposible condition is the going OUT of the Boynton Inlet if the waves are too big, because it would stand my boat up, and the props could hit bottom in the shallow water you have to traverse. Going in, you have learned to surf...first in medium waves, then larger, and the skill is not so hard...the real issue coming in with large waves, is whether the boat is powered sufficiently for big waves....Mine could hit 30mph , and it could take off pretty fast....so I would read the sets, pick a big wave, and catch up to and stay on top of a big wave( the back half) all the way into the inlet. Your hand stays on the throttle, and you constantly change throttle as the wave speed dictates...you have to be able to slow down, or INSTANTLY speed up if needed, and there is often a point right where you enter and turn in to the inlet, where you really need to gas it....I have seen underpowered boats hit this area and almost lose it here. With mine, I always had way more power and instant speed than needed. If I had 12 people on my boat( would have been overloaded for my particular boat), then my boat would have responded slower to the throttle, and my margin for emergency speed increases would suffer.


What I learned from all this, is that if I am on a charter boat anywhere in the world, and we are approaching an inlet, and I see wave structures I know will require the captain to time the entrance, and use special skills for....depending on how bad the conditions are, my buddy and I will prepare ourselves for a bad entry....If it was insanely bad looking, I would have fins mask and snorkel on. If it was just nasty, I would still have my gear close to me so I could grab it....In fact, I have been in one situation, one time, where I and buddy DID put our fins, masks and snorkels on---fortunately they were not needed.

Even though we are passengers, we do not need to be helpless...If you get yourself ready for it, there is pretty much nothing that you can't handle. There is certainly no inlet condition that a freediver could not swim through.....and that is what the passengers should be thinking if the entry looks like the boat may have trouble....
This is not taught or discussed in a dive class that I have ever heard of, but it is worthwhile for all divers to realize, and have in their back pocket for any time the weather creates " the perfect storm" in the boat's return through an inlet.
It's even another reason why everyone should do at least a few days of snorkeling in the surf zone at the beach, to figure out the easy way to swim in with waves....Hint....you dive down under them, you don't try to body surf them!

skimon
November 27th, 2012, 02:01 PM
What I learned from all this, is that if I am on a charter boat anywhere in the world, and we are approaching an inlet, and I see wave structures I know will require the captain to time the entrance, and use special skills for....depending on how bad the conditions are, my buddy and I will prepare ourselves for a bad entry....If it was insanely bad looking, I would have fins mask and snorkel on. If it was just nasty, I would still have my gear close to me so I could grab it....In fact, I have been in one situation, one time, where I and buddy DID put our fins, masks and snorkels on---fortunately they were not needed.

Even though we are passengers, we do not need to be helpless...If you get yourself ready for it, there is pretty much nothing that you can't handle. There is certainly no inlet condition that a freediver could not swim through.....and that is what the passengers should be thinking if the entry looks like the boat may have trouble....
This is not taught or discussed in a dive class that I have ever heard of, but it is worthwhile for all divers to realize, and have in their back pocket for any time the weather creates " the perfect storm" in the boat's return through an inlet.
It's even another reason why everyone should do at least a few days of snorkeling in the surf zone at the beach, to figure out the easy way to swim in with waves....Hint....you dive down under them, you don't try to body surf them!




Very interesting information - thanks for sharing. In reading the posts on this tragic incident, I wondered what one should do if faced with a similar situation and I thought of donning a PFD (life jacket) before the boat attempted to transit the inlet in case the worst case scenario occurred. The PFD would help if you were dazed or somewhat incapacitated when the boat flipped and would help you stay afloat while awaiting arrival of rescue boats.

danvolker
November 27th, 2012, 02:11 PM
Very interesting information - thanks for sharing. In reading the posts on this tragic incident, I wondered what one should do if faced with a similar situation and I thought of donning a PFD (life jacket) before the boat attempted to transit the inlet in case the worst case scenario occurred. The PFD would help if you were dazed or somewhat incapacitated when the boat flipped and would help you stay afloat while awaiting arrival of rescue boats.
Certainly each person needs to figure out what is best for them...if you move quickly and easily in a high stress environment ( a boat about to tip) then a pfd could be a problem, if you find it desirable to go underwater --whether to avoid some part of the boat, to get out from under it, or to get under a huge breaking wave. This is why I would be geared up as if I was freediving--including weight belt to have me neutral in the water. I would refuse the pfd, but that is me....each person would need to think through how they would handle the pitching and everything else.
I am sure the Coast Guard would want the PFD on you, but that is pretty irrelevant to me.

Wookie
November 27th, 2012, 04:07 PM
Some inspected vessels must post written instructions to the captain when crossing hazardous bars, and those instructions include having all personnel don life preservers. I am not sure which inspected vessels must post these instructions, mine is one of them.

DandyDon
November 27th, 2012, 05:39 PM
Wearing life vests on moving boats would certainly lead to fewer fatalities overall altho there is a risk of being trapped under a capsized boat and unable to swim lower because of buoyancy. It seems most boaters and divers just don't appreciate them tho as I don't think I have ever seen anyone else wear one. I wear a snorkel vest on any moving boat, more so than I used to, and let them laugh. Years ago a Roatan charter tried to take us on a channel crossing to Utila with no vests or extinguishers on board. I grabbed a couple of vests before boarding, altho no one else seemed concerned, and learned about the lack of extinguishers later when they called for a transmission fluid delivery. We never got away from Roatan.

Has there been a rash of capsizings lately? One guy spent 7 hours clinging to a cooler lid in Biscayne Bay this weekend: Coast Guard Rescues Man In Biscayne Bay After Boat Capsizes CBS Miami (http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/11/26/coast-guard-rescues-man-in-biscayne-bay-after-boat-capsized/)

These two guys got swamped by a stern wave near Ft.Pierce. AOL.com Video - Fisherman Who Rescued 2 Others: 'Just Another Day at the Office' (http://www.aol.com/video/fisherman-who-rescued-2-others-just-another-day-at-the-office/517549204/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmaing8%7Cdl11%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D238560) Between the two of them, they could only grab one small float...

141441

dumpsterDiver
November 27th, 2012, 08:14 PM
Some inspected vessels must post written instructions to the captain when crossing hazardous bars, and those instructions include having all personnel don life preservers. I am not sure which inspected vessels must post these instructions, mine is one of them.

I was wondering when someone would mention that. Are captains expected to follow up on those instructions and actively direct their passengers to don pfd's prior to attempting to cross the shallow bar/inlet mouth when the conditions are dangerous?

Wookie
November 27th, 2012, 10:34 PM
I was wondering when someone would mention that. Are captains expected to follow up on those instructions and actively direct their passengers to don pfd's prior to attempting to cross the shallow bar/inlet mouth when the conditions are dangerous?

Here is the text of the regulation. If this were an investigation I were conducting, I would ask the skipper if the text contained herein was posted on the vessel (the requirement is for the instructions to be posted on all small passenger vessels). Then I would ask the skipper if he complied with his posted instructions. If I were the plaintiffs attorney, I might ask if the instructions were followed, would the outcome have been different. The investigation will likely show operator error whatever happens. It's the way investigations work, unfortunately....

Title 46: Shipping

CHAPTER I: COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (CONTINUED)

SUBCHAPTER T: SMALL PASSENGER VESSELS (UNDER 100 GROSS TONS)

PART 185: OPERATIONS

Subpart E: Preparations for Emergencies

185.512 - Recommended emergency instructions format.

An emergency instruction placard containing the following information will satisfy the requirements of ? 185.510.

(a) Emergency instructions?(1) Rough weather at sea, crossing hazardous bars, or flooding. (i) Close all watertight and weathertight doors, hatches, and airports to prevent taking water aboard or further flooding in the vessel.

(ii) Keep bilges dry to prevent loss of stability due to water in bilges. Use power driven bilge pump, hand pump, and buckets to dewater.

(iii) Align fire pumps to use as bilge pump if possible.

(iv) Check all intake and discharge lines, which penetrate the hull, for leakage.

(v) Passengers must remain seated and evenly distributed.

(vi) Passengers must don life jackets if the going becomes very rough, the vessel is about to cross a hazardous bar, or when otherwise instructed by the master.

(vii) Never abandon the vessel unless actually forced to do so.

(viii) If assistance is needed follow the procedures on the emergency broadcast placard posted by the radiotelephone.

(ix) Prepare survival craft (life floats, (inflatable) rafts, (inflatable) buoyant apparatus, boats) for launching.

(2) Man overboard. (i) Throw a ring buoy overboard as close to the person as possible.

(ii) Post a lookout to keep the person overboard in sight.

(iii) Launch rescue boat and maneuver to pick up person in the water, or maneuver the vessel to pick up the person in the water.

(iv) Have crew member put on life jacket, attach a safety line to him or her, and have him or her stand by jump into the water to assist the person overboard if necessary.

(v) If person is not immediately located, notify Coast Guard and other vessels in vicinity by radiotelephone.

(vi) Continue search until released by Coast Guard.

(3) Fire. (i) Cut off air supply to fire?close items such as hatches, ports, doors, ventilators, and louvers, and shut off ventilation system.

(ii) Cut off electrical system supplying affected compartment if possible.

(iii) If safe, immediately use portable fire extinguishers at base of flames for flammable liquid or grease fires or water for fires in ordinary combustible materials. Do not use water on electrical fires.

(iv) If fire is in machinery spaces, shut off fuel supply and ventilation and activate fixed extinguishing system if installed.

(v) Maneuver vessel to minimize effect of wind on fire.

(vi) If unable to control fire, immediately notify the Coast Guard and other craft in the vicinity by radiotelephone.

(vii) Move passengers away from fire, have them put on life jackets, and if necessary, prepare to abandon the vessel.

(b) [Reserved]

bowlofpetunias
November 28th, 2012, 06:00 AM
In New South Wales the law requires every person on board must wear a life jacket when crossing sand bars. The captain passes them out and ensures everyone has one on before attempting to cross the bar. I have never seen a captain here break that rule. Capsized dive boats are awful rare here. I only know of one and there were no injuries.. everyone was wearing their vests...

Ed Jackson1
November 29th, 2012, 09:36 AM
Was the captain and crewed named? Just wondering if I have been out with them before.

Reck Diver
November 30th, 2012, 09:47 PM
Any opinions on whether or not the Captain will face criminal charges?

Certainly the civil suits will be coming.....

Wookie
November 30th, 2012, 10:14 PM
I can't imagine why. He may have misread the ocean and the breakers at the bar, but he is certainly not the first captain to make a mistake. This is just a tragedy, nothing more.

Reck Diver
November 30th, 2012, 10:23 PM
I can't imagine why. He may have misread the ocean and the breakers at the bar, but he is certainly not the first captain to make a mistake. This is just a tragedy, nothing more.

Small Craft Advisory was posted at the time. Could it be argued that the Captain was reckless for risking the safety of his passengers given the conditions?

I bring it up because the incident continues to have life. This morning on the Paul and Young Ron Radio program, they talked quite a bit about the incident.

Yes it is a tragedy, but might have been an avoidable one.

DandyDon
November 30th, 2012, 10:50 PM
Small Craft Advisory was posted at the time. Could it be argued that the Captain was reckless for risking the safety of his passengers given the conditions?

I bring it up because the incident continues to have life. This morning on the Paul and Young Ron Radio program, they talked quite a bit about the incident.

Yes it is a tragedy, but might have been an avoidable one.
Not a small craft was it?

As far as suing, that call will be up to the survivors, relatives of the deceased, and their lawyers - who are obligated to do as much as they can for their clients. :dontknow:

Wookie
November 30th, 2012, 11:03 PM
There is no definitive description of small craft, but it is generally recognized that small craft are smaller than 65 feet in length. A small craft warning or advisory is non binding, meaning that there are no rules to follow just because one is posted. As the Coast Guard themselves say, a prudent mariner relies on more than one source for maritime information.

danvolker
December 1st, 2012, 12:11 AM
Not a small craft was it?

As far as suing, that call will be up to the survivors, relatives of the deceased, and their lawyers - who are obligated to do as much as they can for their clients. :dontknow:

Good people are obligated to do what is "Right". Some attorneys..the rare and the good, actually live by this, and attempt to do what is right. But most will use the Law to steal legally, whenever it is the best interest of their client.

Doing as much as they can may very well amount to legal theft.

You can pass this off as the way things are...or, you can smell the rank odor-- and actually say it stinks.

DandyDon
December 1st, 2012, 01:21 AM
Good people are obligated to do what it "Right". Some attorneys..the rare and the good, actually live by this, and attempt to do what is right. But most will use the Law to steal legally, whenever it is the best interest of their client.

Doing as much as they can may very well amount to legal theft.

You can pass this off as the way things are...or, you can smell the rank odor-- and actually say it stinks.
That would make the lawyer to also be judge & jury. I hope no one sues, but if they do - everyone deserves their day in court if s/he is up to it.

Johnoly
December 1st, 2012, 10:42 AM
A small craft warning or advisory is non binding, meaning that there are no rules to follow just because one is posted.

IMHO us divers want it "non-binding". In other countries a harbor master / navy official will "close the Inlet/port" and no smaller boats can go out or risk getting arrested. Since they tend to err on the conservative side (2 feet or less), us divers would never get on the water.

I myself & me base my decision to go out by knowing the boat, the captain's experience, the inlet live webcam, and how much Triptone I have. Jupiter divers will go out in 7 - 9 footers as long as we have a 10 - 12 second intervals and a fast prop. I agree, we don't want the CG making the decision to close our inlets, or we'll never get to go diving.

Nemrod
December 1st, 2012, 12:53 PM
I was wondering when someone would mention that. Are captains expected to follow up on those instructions and actively direct their passengers to don pfd's prior to attempting to cross the shallow bar/inlet mouth when the conditions are dangerous?

My response here has nothing to do with this incident specifically. In the USA, which is still, amazingly, for a little while longer a free country you are allowed to take risks (with your money,your property and your life). People need to recognize that our invented concept of all surrounding safety is a novel, new and largely fabricated concept. Only children need wear jackets and then only in boats under a certain size (20 feet if I recall).

Some inlets are ALWAYS dangerous. The sea is ALWAYS dangerous. Life is dangerous and it comes with no guarantee of safety. Certain risks are taken as we go about our lives, occasionally bad things can and do happen. We cannot go around passing laws and more regulations to provide guaranteed 100% safety because as I said, that is a fabrication of the modern mind, not reality.

I will think of and pray for all involved in this specific, tragic incident.

N

Reck Diver
December 1st, 2012, 12:57 PM
Jupiter divers will go out in 7 - 9 footers as long as we have a 10 - 12 second intervals and a fast prop. .


How often do we see these conditions? Not very often or we would be more of a world class surfing destination than a dive spot.

dumpsterDiver
December 1st, 2012, 03:29 PM
My response here has nothing to do with this incident specifically. In the USA, which is still, amazingly, for a little while longer a free country you are allowed to take risks (with your money,your property and your life). People need to recognize that our invented concept of all surrounding safety is a novel, new and largely fabricated concept. Only children need wear jackets and then only in boats under a certain size (20 feet if I recall).

Some inlets are ALWAYS dangerous. The sea is ALWAYS dangerous. Life is dangerous and it comes with no guarantee of safety. Certain risks are taken as we go about our lives, occasionally bad things can and do happen. We cannot go around passing laws and more regulations to provide guaranteed 100% safety because as I said, that is a fabrication of the modern mind, not reality.

I will think of and pray for all involved in this specific, tragic incident.

N

I've not advocated for more laws, nor said the captain was negligent or anything like that.

My question was specific to what a CG certified vessel operator who is running a charter is expected to ("technically") do when unusually dangerous conditions present themselves. Failure to follow certain guidelines may have zero consequences.... until a tragic accident occurs; then I could imagine it being very important. Especially if a downing occurred that might have been avoidable had the passenger been wearing a pfd.

danvolker
December 1st, 2012, 03:37 PM
I've not advocated for more laws, nor said the captain was negligent or anything like that.

My question was specific to what a CG certified vessel operator who is running a charter is expected to ("technically") do when unusually dangerous conditions present themselves. Failure to follow certain guidelines may have zero consequences.... until a tragic accident occurs; then I could imagine it being very important. Especially if a downing occurred that might have been avoidable had the passenger been wearing a pfd.

I think there is an element of good luck or bad luck in this....The biggest threat that I can see to a diver, is having the boat flip over on top of them, trapping them....this would be potentially worse with the pfd on.... Certainly having tanks hit you during the rollover can't be ignored as potentially causing unconsciusness....but flotation in an upside down sinking boat will not help much with this either....

I think a general boating population should be regarded differently, as it could have a significant percentage of non-swimmers as possible--however on a scuba charter boat, the population of non-swimmers should be zero...plus as divers, they should be expected to have multiple flotation options available to their own discretion, including wet suits, BC's, and fins/mask and snorkel solutions.....

Scott L
December 1st, 2012, 04:22 PM
Small Craft Advisory was posted at the time. Could it be argued that the Captain was reckless for risking the safety of his passengers given the conditions?

I bring it up because the incident continues to have life. This morning on the Paul and Young Ron Radio program, they talked quite a bit about the incident.

Yes it is a tragedy, but might have been an avoidable one.

Hmm, yeah. The vast majority of the charter dive operators in S. Florida decided to stay in port that day. Also, throw in a catamaran hull contending with a turbulent inlet...

dumpsterDiver
December 1st, 2012, 05:22 PM
I think there is an element of good luck or bad luck in this....The biggest threat that I can see to a diver, is having the boat flip over on top of them, trapping them....this would be potentially worse with the pfd on.... Certainly having tanks hit you during the rollover can't be ignored as potentially causing unconsciusness....but flotation in an upside down sinking boat will not help much with this either....

I think a general boating population should be regarded differently, as it could have a significant percentage of non-swimmers as possible--however on a scuba charter boat, the population of non-swimmers should be zero...plus as divers, they should be expected to have multiple flotation options available to their own discretion, including wet suits, BC's, and fins/mask and snorkel solutions.....


I love to argue with you Dan, but if a person were trapped under a boat (not inside) while wearing a pfd, I think it is reasonable to expect them to be able to crawl across the deck and reach the side and ascend. If they are knocked unconscious immediately or pass out trapped underneath, they still might be recoverable by a good swimmer (who may have ditched his pfd). In any regard, I doubt the USCG is going to make rules for normal people and special ones for passengers that have scuba certifications.

danvolker
December 1st, 2012, 05:29 PM
I love to argue with you Dan, but if a person were trapped under a boat (not inside) while wearing a pfd, I think it is reasonable to expect them to be able to crawl across the deck and reach the side and ascend. If they are knocked unconscious immediately or pass out trapped underneath, they still might be recoverable by a good swimmer (who may have ditched his pfd). In any regard, I doubt the USCG is going to make rules for normal people and special ones for passengers that have scuba certifications.
I don't have any expectation that the CG will pay any attention whatsoever to my feelings on this matter....and I don't think this is a place where any legal decision or culpability will be decided...However, I am telling a large group of divers, that as a diver, I think it would be foolish for one of us to pay any attention to the PFD regulations.... I would ignore it absolutely, and do what I thought best for myself and buddy(s). If there were some sheep grazing on the boat, I'd make sure they had pfd's on and plenty to eat.

Scott L
December 1st, 2012, 11:06 PM
There will be some fast jockeying by plaintiffs to get a piece of the boat's liability coverage, which I am guessing is no more than $1M. There well be no trials, Etc. The policy will pay out the full limit of coverage...

fdarden
December 1st, 2012, 11:41 PM
First we had cyber divers in this thread, and then cyber-captains. It only stands to reason that now the cyber-attorneys are chiming in. Isnt it about time to put this thread to rest? I think a cyber-psychic would be the next appropriate poster otherwise.

DandyDon
December 2nd, 2012, 12:51 AM
First we had cyber divers in this thread, and then cyber-captains. It only stands to reason that now the cyber-attorneys are chiming in. Isnt it about time to put this thread to rest? I think a cyber-psychic would be the next appropriate poster otherwise.
Yeah, why have a discussion board anyway. Close SB, right?

Scubakevdm
December 2nd, 2012, 10:28 AM
First we had cyber divers in this thread, and then cyber-captains. It only stands to reason that now the cyber-attorneys are chiming in. Isnt it about time to put this thread to rest? I think a cyber-psychic would be the next appropriate poster otherwise.

For what it's worth, there have been actual captains posting here, boat credentialed and not. (In my opinion, the credentialed part is somewhat immaterial in this discussion, and that experience running in and out of these inlets with a ground swell is what is important). They are sharing aspects of what they do that are normally invisible to the public, sort of a behind the scenes look. I would recommend that instead of minimizing the value their contributions, that people take notes.
Just like we have all been trained, there are inherent risks to diving, and I'm sure that everybody onboard that boat signed a waiver that acknowledged this, and in addition acknowledged that there are risks inherent to being on a boat.
I'm guessing that very few people actually understood those risks that day, so, although this was a tragic event, through discussion, a better understanding of these risks might be realized and benefit the diving community as a whole.

bowlofpetunias
December 3rd, 2012, 05:41 AM
I don't have any expectation that the CG will pay any attention whatsoever to my feelings on this matter....and I don't think this is a place where any legal decision or culpability will be decided...However, I am telling a large group of divers, that as a diver, I think it would be foolish for one of us to pay any attention to the PFD regulations.... I would ignore it absolutely, and do what I thought best for myself and buddy(s). If there were some sheep grazing on the boat, I'd make sure they had pfd's on and plenty to eat.

I guess it is all about knowing and respecting the laws of the place where you are diving. I suspect you would be unpopular with the rest of the divers on the boat when the captain went back to the dock to let you off if you ignored the call to put the pfd on before crossing the bar. The captain would not want to pay the fine or risk losing his boat by ignoring the law.

danvolker
December 3rd, 2012, 09:15 AM
I guess it is all about knowing and respecting the laws of the place where you are diving. I suspect you would be unpopular with the rest of the divers on the boat when the captain went back to the dock to let you off if you ignored the call to put the pfd on before crossing the bar. The captain would not want to pay the fine or risk losing his boat by ignoring the law.

For what it is worth, I have met an awful lot of boat captains in my time diving, and one thing I am pretty sure of...when it comes to something like a "survival situation", they would be very happy to do their CG message the law dictates, and to then see many able bodied divers on the boat choose to wear the dive gear I referred to instead. The law would be that they tell passengers the CG wants them in PFD's....The law ..the CG, is not dealing with divers specifically--it is dealing a population of non-divers and non-swimmers that are on a boat that is about to sink. In any scenario like this, Sandra and Bill Mee and I and any of our other friends, would easily swim in to shore from ANY dive site off of Palm Beach, and into any inlet. We would not accept pfds. Period. The captain does not have the authority to FORCE a passenger to wear pfd instead of their dive gear...So if a ticket was to be issued, it would have to be to me or my friends.
Let's see....stupid ticket and many more years of diving with long life...or....wear the pfd and drown, but no ticket and complete compliance with the CG and the law...Gee...this is a tough one :-)

I am not being snotty to you bowlofpetunias...the sarcasm is aimed at the system we live in, where people allow others...expect others, to make them safe.... I reject this.

Zieg
December 3rd, 2012, 10:59 AM
Dan, I do agree with you to a point. Having worked on the water my whole life, so far, one thing has always been pointed out when people are asked to put on a life jacket and refused. The life jacket will keep your head above water if you're knocked unconscious.

danvolker
December 3rd, 2012, 11:25 AM
Dan, I do agree with you to a point. Having worked on the water my whole life, so far, one thing has always been pointed out when people are asked to put on a life jacket and refused. The life jacket will keep your head above water if you're knocked unconscious. Hey, all I am saying is that in a potential survival situation, YOU think about the best course of action for the people you are with( friends/family) and yourself....
I have done so many adventure sports in my life, and been in so many sudden and potentially catastrophic events ( bike crashes in races, car races, ski races/crashes, hang gliding, sailboats pitch forking ( end over end flip with hobe cat and also Lasers in storm wind) and of course, diving in high seas and bad weather in all of those days since the early 80's when I started diving charterboats heavily --cert in 72).....with this exposure to sudden upside down "the sky is falling" kind of stuff, I know enough about how a dive boat flipping is likely to be, or a sinking, for me to figure out for myself what the best course of action is going to be. Time slows down, and you move the way you need to, as the crash evolves. I think this is true for many people, but not all....for those that it is NOT true for, the PFD had better be worn.

Ana
December 3rd, 2012, 02:50 PM
For what it is worth, I have met an awful lot of boat captains in my time diving, and one thing I am pretty sure of...when it comes to something like a "survival situation", they would be very happy to do their CG message the law dictates, and to then see many able bodied divers on the boat choose to wear the dive gear I referred to instead. The law would be that they tell passengers the CG wants them in PFD's....The law ..the CG, is not dealing with divers specifically--it is dealing a population of non-divers and non-swimmers that are on a boat that is about to sink. In any scenario like this, Sandra and Bill Mee and I and any of our other friends, would easily swim in to shore from ANY dive site off of Palm Beach, and into any inlet. We would not accept pfds. Period. The captain does not have the authority to FORCE a passenger to wear pfd instead of their dive gear...So if a ticket was to be issued, it would have to be to me or my friends.
Let's see....stupid ticket and many more years of diving with long life...or....wear the pfd and drown, but no ticket and complete compliance with the CG and the law...Gee...this is a tough one :-)

I am not being snotty to you bowlofpetunias...the sarcasm is aimed at the system we live in, where people allow others...expect others, to make them safe.... I reject this.

I understand your philosophy about rather using dive gear instead of pdf's. Also realize that using your typical charters you can probably do as you consider safer in a situation when the Capt calls for people to get pdf's. There are certain things I can do when diving on 2 or 3 charters in South Florida but as a general rule, when you dive off a new location on a new charter, like most of the people on this charter were they can't just choose to follow or not follow capt rules.

How many times do you see people coming in your typical charters showing up, telling everyone how amazing and knowledgeable they are. What percentage of that group turns out to be accurate on their self-assessment?
A sane capt will tell you: follow my rules or get off my boat. and probably no refund.... rightfully so I may add

I won't even go into working boats,,, because it obviously wouldn't apply but again you do as the capt say or you are out.

danvolker
December 3rd, 2012, 03:32 PM
Ana,
I will follow the boat rules 99.9% of the time, with no problem.... Few members of SB have ever been on a boat about to sink, and actually had a captain tell them what he wanted them to do....few have been on one that the captain was afraid might sink, and had the captain give commands in this situation.... I have been in the latter....and in this case, the captain told us the law, and then let us remember we had some effective dive gear as well....He wanted us to have the beast chance. I am friends with a lot of Captains in Florida, and I can't think of one in this situation that would not care more about the survival of each passenger, than about a poorly thought out regulation.

There are more than a few boats in florida where whenn the Captain gives the briefing, he tells about the PFD..and then also right then, reminds us we have very high end flotation devices called BC's that we could choose over his CG recomendation, should we desire.... There is no way I am the only one here that has heard this many times.

..... The last point on this :-) is that if the dive boat is about to sink or flip, it won't matter a great deal ( in the scheme of things) if I refuse to wear a pfd and violate the captains rules, because the boat will not be running any more....
If it does not sink, and I did not like the way the captain handled things, I would not use the boat again anyway. But like I said, the boats I use, have a much better policy :-)

Zieg
December 3rd, 2012, 04:06 PM
Well Dan, BCs are NOT coast guard approved pfds, in any shape or form.

danvolker
December 3rd, 2012, 04:15 PM
Well Dan, BCs are NOT coast guard approved pfds, in any shape or form.

We all know this. and most of us would consider a $15 pfd as junk we don't need, and grab our BC instead....

If you are planning on being in the water unconscious, then the pfd will be better. There is no way I am planning on being unconscious, Sandra and Bill won't be either, and if anyone of us got the big hit on the head, one of us would deal with the situation.

The PFD is for an unconscious diver or for a non-diver. It is not for an able bodied diver that is not injured. If you are able bodied, uninjured, and could care less about regulations that WERE NOT MADE SPECIFICALLY FOR DIVERS, then you may very well ignore the PFD "suggestion"...and a suggestion is all that it can be.

Reck Diver
December 3rd, 2012, 04:23 PM
As one who owns and safely operates a vessel, I would consider it a favor that if any guest who wishes to disregard any of my instructions once underway, please let me know prior to boarding as that will give the rest of us a little more room.

“Drowning is the leading cause of death in boating accidents...” said Lt. Ed Cates of the FWC’s Division of Law Enforcement.

Zieg
December 3rd, 2012, 04:27 PM
No one "plans" on being unconscious. Doodoo occurs. To think that you are too smart to get knocked out is just too funny, but then again perhaps your head is sooooooo thick that you are immune to such things.

danvolker
December 3rd, 2012, 04:53 PM
No one "plans" on being unconscious. Doodoo occures. To think that you are too smart to get knocked out is just too funny, but then again perhaps your head is sooooooo thick that you are immune to such things.
First, the boat flipping in this thread was unplanned, and no one was wearing pfds or bc's. Most situations where passengers will be asked to don PFD's will be sinkings that happen in a few minutes, or at least over many seconds--the instantaneous flipping is not something that ANY gear has been designed to protect boat passengers from. The PFD is for being in the water and keeping your head up.

If there was a real concern about being knocked unconscious, then we would be foolish not to be wearing something like a football helmet, or at least a bike or whitewater kayaking helmet. Why not prevent the injury? Why not think for yourself? Why trust the government to know what is best and safest for YOU?

If you do plenty of adventure sports, much of this is about the planning. Planning the what-ifs, the what thens, and so on. I just think the pfd for a "GENERAL SOLUTION" is a very poor solution for divers, given our alternatives...alternatives not available to the general public.

And so far, I have been immune to such things :-) I plan to keep it that way :-)

Reck Diver
December 3rd, 2012, 05:05 PM
First, the boat flipping in this thread was unplanned, and no one was wearing pfds or bc's.

And perhaps this is one instance where the Captain was negligent. Conditions where a real risk of peril existed and he chose to continue to proceed in shore without his passengers donning pfd's.

Scott L
December 3rd, 2012, 05:39 PM
I would also elect Dan's course of action, but if it makes the captain happy, I will exit the boat with the pfd in hand, not clipped to my rig. ;)

danvolker
December 3rd, 2012, 05:44 PM
And perhaps this is one instance where the Captain was negligent. Conditions where a real risk of peril existed and he chose to continue to proceed in shore without his passengers donning pfd's.
I was not there to be able to scan the sets of waves running at the time, and I don't think you were either.

When I had my Regal out and the seas came up a lot, the only reason for stopping and watching the sets, would be that the tide and shoaling was such that the large waves were being complicated by much too shallow water between the waves. This would be a common concern at certain times when coming in to the Boynton Inlet, but it would never be a factor at the Palm Beach Inlet( Lake Worth Inlet). In fact, any captain that was really scared about the Boynton Inlet on a given return trip, would likely be thinking about how nice the Palm Beach inlet would be, and if they had fuel to get there.

If I was going to stop in this accident scenario, I would have to stop COMPLETELY OUTSIDE the surf zone. From there, you would read the set, and decide which wave to run after, and get on the back half of, and to ride in.
But if I or any other Captain was going to stop, we would be very sure we were out beyond the surf zone of the inlet.

At this point, I can only add conjecture....he must have been where he would usually stop to read the wave sets.... Maybe some scouring or shoaling had occurred, and the waves were changing in the area from which they would begin to stand up....usually where it starts to get shallow...so maybe a sand bar was forming much further out than usual ? Or...Maybe this really was a unique wave that formed much farther out than waves ever form....this taking the boat by surprise....

Because I had lots of power on my boat, and could run in only 3 feet of water, I would usually read the sets well before I got close, and just grab the convenient wave on the way in...Stopping for me usually would occur only if other boats were lined up reading the sets, and at Boynton you go in single file, and you take your turn :-) In other words, I would do this from a stop sometimes, but this was not the way I liked to do it. I never liked stopping and getting off of plane on my way in. Stopping also means having to worry about the waves hitting your stern....usually being outside the surfzone makes this benign as problems go. Clearly the captain felt the shape of the waves, the tidal flow, and the depth of the inlet, dictated that he stop and attempt to find the safest and easiest way to "ride in". The "rogue wave" was a shock to him. I think if he had any concerns whatever that he was going to have a dangerous entrance, he would either have alerted all the passengers to what he considered a "Dangerous Situation" --and certainly the PFD talk would have been covered----OR, more likely, he would have decided to go in a major inlet like at Port Everglades or the Palm Beach Inlet ( which ever was closest). If he had insufficient fuel for the big inlets, there would have been radio chatter if this was the conundrum.

Reck Diver
December 3rd, 2012, 05:44 PM
I would also elect Dan's course of action, but if it makes the captain happy, I will exit the boat with the pfd in hand, not clipped to my rig. ;)


Your captain would appreciate it if you could let him know that prior to departure. (see post 112)

---------- Post added December 3rd, 2012 at 04:47 PM ----------




When I had my Regal out.....

I thought we couldn't talk about the Regal ;)

boulderjohn
December 3rd, 2012, 05:52 PM
Please remember that this is an accident and incident thread about a specific tragedy. Please stay on this topic. The issue of PFDs was somewhat on topic at first, but it has since drifted off. If you wish to have a debate about whether or not one should wear a PFD, BCD, or ring buoy, or if you plan to obey or disobey a captain's orders, please start a new thread in an appropriate forum.

Scott L
December 3rd, 2012, 05:57 PM
And perhaps this is one instance where the Captain was negligent. Conditions where a real risk of peril existed and he chose to continue to proceed in shore without his passengers donning pfd's.

He would have surely rerouted to another inlet before issuing that order...

danvolker
December 3rd, 2012, 06:00 PM
I thought we couldn't talk about the Regal ;)

I have to agree --that this should not be considered off-topic...the thread needs to be allowed to run it's course. If I was captaining my boat into an inlet like this, or you yours, our insights are relevant....Most divers that have never run a 30 to 50 foot boat, will not have much experience with the issues a Captain will consider in getting the boat into a rough inlet....So I think this is a valid path.

Reck Diver
December 3rd, 2012, 06:04 PM
I have to agree --that this should not be considered off-topic...the thread needs to be allowed to run it's course. If I was captaining my boat into an inlet like this, or you yours, our insights are relevant....Most divers that have never run a 30 to 50 foot boat, will not have much experience with the issues a Captain will consider in getting the boat into a rough inlet....So I think this is a valid path.

I agree
Now somebody note the time and day. BTW it seemed like my keyboard quit three or four times trying to post this... and my hands cramped up to the point I couldn't type the two words. lol

peterbj7
December 3rd, 2012, 07:50 PM
Another perspective. Most dive boats here in Belize are in the 30'-40' range, most use outboards, and our barrier reef has few openings. I have twice been on boats that capsized on entering the main and generally safest reef opening at Ambergris Caye, though we've come close on other occasions. On the two occasions the boat capsized, a PFD would have been a dangerous liability. A deflated BCD with no tank attached would have been ideal, but on neither occasion was I or anyone else wearing one. There are two considerations here - avoiding hard parts of the boat as it goes over, and getting clear of the boat. Since very sharp coral is close by and the waves are trying to push you onto it, the best way to escape is to dive under the waves and swim underwater away from the reef. Once away you need to surface, and at that point a previously deflated BCD can be inflated. But constant vigilence is needed to avoid being swept onto the coral.

I have dived countless times in the Miami area though we never came close to capsizing. Ditto for all the dives I have done around the British Isles, though we've come close on several occasions.

I have never heard of any regulations covering the use of buoyancy devices in British/Irish waters, so if there are any they're universally flouted.

DandyDon
December 3rd, 2012, 08:29 PM
I still like my snorkel vests. Won't ride on any moving boat without wearing one. Glad I lived thru the times I should have worn it before I finally wised up.

jar546
December 3rd, 2012, 09:54 PM
Crazy as they are trying to go out, I could not imagine trying to come in with conditions like there are in this video.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=d_Hdkt1_ivo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd_Hdkt1_ivo


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

bowlofpetunias
December 3rd, 2012, 10:27 PM
Just a point of clarification. I am only providing information about the rules here. In NSW Captains are REQUIRED to have all on board wearing life vests BEFORE attempting to cross a dangerous sandbar. I am not talking about coral outcroppings and passing through channels in reefs. I am not sure if the specific "Dangerous Sandbars" are listed in the Act. I mention this because so many people read these threads and some may be expecting to dive here in NSW. I respect the rights of any country to establish their laws through just process. When I travel it is incumbent on me to follow the laws of the country I am in. This event happened crossing a sandbar so that is why I think this discussion is relevant.

We also have occasions where "The heads are closed" to specific sized boats. Many divers are not boat owners or captains and have difficulty knowing the conditions that are or are not appropriate for them to go out. I remember once we were on a dive trip organized by our local dive shop. Costs were paid in advance. We were 45 minutes out to sea and on the way back conditions were so bad we came close to capsizing several times! The next day my buddy and I refused to go out as conditions were even worse! We were told that since they were willing to take us out.. and indeed did go out and we ELECTED not to go for personal reasons they would not offer a refund or allow us to use our trip at a later date! We found out much later that they had "breached their charter" by going out in those conditions. At that location they were launching from shore mid coast. We have never dived with that operator again and as far as I know our shop no longer deals with them either. Some places are more worried about the money than safety. Some people don't have the knowledge to know when they are not safe and IMHO that is where reasonable laws are needed.

It seems to me that passing out PFD's and information in the chaos of an impending event is ineffective. I would rather the captain be able to focus totally on managing the boat and not trying to issue directions and pass out equipment at that time. There has been some brilliant and I believe valuable information shared in this thread. I think the most important one is that we need to think and have some plan ahead of the event. You know the old saying..... "When you are up to your a$$ in alligators it is hard to remember the primary objective is to drain the swamp!"

DD your snorkel vest sounds interesting. A lot of the time we dive in gear that is neutrally buoyant and not wetsuits. Mostly we dive off smaller boats and dive gear including BCD's are secured with tanks attached. The space is pretty limited so wearing your BCD would not be practical. Would you please post a picture of what you are talking about?

DandyDon
December 3rd, 2012, 11:48 PM
Crazy as they are trying to go out, I could not imagine trying to come in with conditions like there are in this video.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=d_Hdkt1_ivo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd_Hdkt1_ivo


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Anyone else having difficulties with that? I can do the link, but not the video.



DD your snorkel vest sounds interesting. A lot of the time we dive in gear that is neutrally buoyant and not wetsuits. Mostly we dive off smaller boats and dive gear including BCD's are secured with tanks attached. The space is pretty limited so wearing your BCD would not be practical. Would you please post a picture of what you are talking about?
It ain't much, won't help if I'm unconscious, etc. but - if I ever fall off the back of a big boat taking a leak as men often do from large dive boats here, just clumsily screw up and fall overboard, get thrown off by a wave, or a boat sinks, I'd rather have it on than be searching in panic or struggling with waves. We had a panga sink crossing Cozumel channel last year and there was an emergency rescue of BCs as she went down. Swimming is not one of my favorite hobbies so I don't practice and I don't have any idea how good I'd be in an emergency, but I know this floats. Doesn't bother me at all wearing it deflated on a boat, and I could swim from an overturned boat or a cabin before inflating if needed. At a birthday dinner last summer in Coz, a friend gave me a new, orange one as a joke - but it came in handy strapping it on a young relative playing in dirty water on a lake beach a week later, while I kept mine handy as a rescue aid, and my granddaughter wore her blue one. ;) I've given yellow ones to daughter & soninlaw, but getting them to use them is challenging. They fail to bring them to lake outings, and play in the water when they can't see the bottom. :eek:

They're easy to find on the net over here, like Seac Adult Snorkeling Vest @ Divers-Supply.com (http://www.divers-supply.com/-P109247.aspx?afid=1&utm_source=adwordsfroogle&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=adwordsfroogle&utm_content=109247-ORANGE&gclid=CMKN_NXr_7MCFUWnPAod9gsA4g). Anyway, it's on my profile pic, from river kayaking in Oklahoma one year...

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/customprofilepics/profilepic13475_1.gif

SC_Hoaty
December 4th, 2012, 12:07 AM
Swimming is not one of my favorite hobbies so I don't practice and I don't have any idea how good I'd be in an emergency,

If one spends much time on the water, one should really be comfortable in one's swimming skills. Lack of such comfort can lead to panic at a very inopportune moment.

DandyDon
December 4th, 2012, 12:30 AM
If one spends much time on the water, one should really be comfortable in one's swimming skills. Lack of such comfort can lead to panic at a very inopportune moment.
Sounds good, doesn't walk far. There are many shoulds never put into practice.

Anyway, I don't spend much time on the water actually. I was probably over confident in my swimming skills when I did more, but I survived those. Some confident swimmers all too commonly don't survive boat mishaps. Over 500 last year: http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/Publications/2011BoatingStatisticsreport.pdf

SC_Hoaty
December 4th, 2012, 08:41 AM
We are drifting off topic again. That report says nothing about swimming skills, confidence in swimming skills, etc.

There could be a whole thread, maybe even a whole forum devoted to using an "equipment solution to a skills problem."

PFDs are valuable life saving devices. They are not a guarantee of survival in all on-water emergencies. From the cited report, 84 people drowned wearing life jackets in the reporting period.

danvolker
December 4th, 2012, 09:51 AM
Sounds good, doesn't walk far. There are many shoulds never put into practice.

Anyway, I don't spend much time on the water actually. I was probably over confident in my swimming skills when I did more, but I survived those. Some confident swimmers all too commonly don't survive boat mishaps. Over 500 last year: http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/Publications/2011BoatingStatisticsreport.pdf

Put a diver in mask, fins and snorkel, as if the boat sank ( say in the space of 5 minutes it went down).
What possible excuse is there for a DIVER not to be able to either swim to shore( if it is within 5 miles and there is no outgoing tide or current) OR, to stay horizontal, relaxed, and breathing comfortably through the snorkel for even an entire day, if not longer.

For a huge percentage of divers out on boats, there is the potential for swimming to shore, or to an area where many other boasts could be found( potential rescuers). The pfd wearer floats on the surface 100% helpless and generating no body heat from swimming--meaning hypothermia is much more likely to visit the pfd wearer, much sooner.

As relevant to this thread---the safety of divers on a boat entering an area of some danger, and how to best ensure their continued safety....Should the Captain tell divers to don pfd's in this case, or would this be foolish, given MUCH BETTER OPTIONS open to "divers". And again, if anyone thinks the danger to protect against is unconsciousness, that is NOT what a pfd is made for.....for this you need a bike helmet, a whitewater kayak helmet, or a football helmet type solution. This will likely PREVENT your becoming unconscious. An unconscious person in the water with a pfd could easily drown, particularly if they were in a boat that just flipped over. So...Either protect your head so you can take a huge hit and stay conscious, or, find a way to avoid the hit.

peterbj7
December 4th, 2012, 11:58 AM
In NSW Captains are REQUIRED to have all on board wearing life vests BEFORE attempting to cross a dangerous sandbar

But what is "dangerous"? Sounds well-nigh impossible to enforce.

Wookie
December 4th, 2012, 12:41 PM
But what is "dangerous"? Sounds well-nigh impossible to enforce.

And there is the rub. The US Coast Guard promulgates rules that have some amount of leeway for the Captain to make the call. If he makes the wrong call, they have a gotcha to hang him with. As long as no one ever gets hurt (I'd bet that that particular dive boat navigated that inlet hundreds or thousands of times without incident) there is no problem, but when just one person gets hurt, the Coast Guard can come back and say that they had a rule and the Captain failed to follow it.

That's why they call us professionals. We get paid to make judgement calls regarding the safety of our passengers. Sometimes we make the wrong call and get hung for it. You are a professional Scuba Instructor. God forbid you make an improper judgement call regarding one of your students. God forbid I make a poor judgement call regarding the safety of my passengers. If or when I do, I stand ready to defend my call and have insurance to back it up.

Capt Martin of Wave Dancer fame made a bad judgement call too.....

rjack321
December 4th, 2012, 01:15 PM
And there is the rub. The US Coast Guard promulgates rules that have some amount of leeway for the Captain to make the call. If he makes the wrong call, they have a gotcha to hang him with. As long as no one ever gets hurt (I'd bet that that particular dive boat navigated that inlet hundreds or thousands of times without incident) there is no problem, but when just one person gets hurt, the Coast Guard can come back and say that they had a rule and the Captain failed to follow it.

That's why they call us professionals. We get paid to make judgement calls regarding the safety of our passengers. Sometimes we make the wrong call and get hung for it. You are a professional Scuba Instructor. God forbid you make an improper judgement call regarding one of your students. God forbid I make a poor judgement call regarding the safety of my passengers. If or when I do, I stand ready to defend my call and have insurance to back it up.

Capt Nigel of Wind Dancer fame made a bad judgement call too.....

Coast Guard district 13 (the Pacific Northwest not including Alaska) has the authority to close ocean bars to traffic. They are the only Ditsrict with this congressional authority and they use it. The Columbia (River) bar is the most noteworthy and famous bar which is closed at times. USCG: Oregon/Washington Coast - 13th Coast Guard District - Guardians of the Pacific Northwest (http://www.uscg.mil/d13/bar/default.asp)

Wookie
December 4th, 2012, 01:54 PM
Coast Guard district 13 (the Pacific Northwest not including Alaska) has the authority to close ocean bars to traffic. They are the only Ditsrict with this congressional authority and they use it. The Columbia (River) bar is the most noteworthy and famous bar which is closed at times. USCG: Oregon/Washington Coast - 13th Coast Guard District - Guardians of the Pacific Northwest (http://www.uscg.mil/d13/bar/default.asp)

I have crossed the Colombia River Bar as well as the San Francisco bar in heavy weather. Neither is something to mess with. The Coast Guard trains their crews at Colombia River Bar on the old surf boats (44 footer), but I don't know about where the 47 footer training takes place....

DandyDon
December 4th, 2012, 01:57 PM
Put a diver in mask, fins and snorkel, as if the boat sank ( say in the space of 5 minutes it went down).
What possible excuse is there for a DIVER not to be able to either swim to shore( if it is within 5 miles and there is no outgoing tide or current) OR, to stay horizontal, relaxed, and breathing comfortably through the snorkel for even an entire day, if not longer.

For a huge percentage of divers out on boats, there is the potential for swimming to shore, or to an area where many other boasts could be found( potential rescuers). The pfd wearer floats on the surface 100% helpless and generating no body heat from swimming--meaning hypothermia is much more likely to visit the pfd wearer, much sooner.

As relevant to this thread---the safety of divers on a boat entering an area of some danger, and how to best ensure their continued safety....Should the Captain tell divers to don pfd's in this case, or would this be foolish, given MUCH BETTER OPTIONS open to "divers". And again, if anyone thinks the danger to protect against is unconsciousness, that is NOT what a pfd is made for.....for this you need a bike helmet, a whitewater kayak helmet, or a football helmet type solution. This will likely PREVENT your becoming unconscious. An unconscious person in the water with a pfd could easily drown, particularly if they were in a boat that just flipped over. So...Either protect your head so you can take a huge hit and stay conscious, or, find a way to avoid the hit.
5 minutes?! I doubt that luxury happens often among the sinking emergencies. Not the last known Cozumel sinking when a guy I know shouted "grab anything that float" - but that one did float near the surface for a few minutes so he could free dive for BCs. Swim 5 miles in snorkel gear without my vest? I doubt I could, and I see others in worse shape. Gym talk.

danvolker
December 4th, 2012, 03:07 PM
5 minutes?! I doubt that luxury happens often among the sinking emergencies. Not the last known Cozumel sinking when a guy I know shouted "grab anything that float" - but that one did float near the surface for a few minutes so he could free dive for BCs. Swim 5 miles in snorkel gear without my vest? I doubt I could, and I see others in worse shape. Gym talk.

Don, the point is, in most sinkings you don't have a boat flipping over with zero time for divers to get in the water...and for the potential to be knocked unconscious to be so high as in the pitchforking of the cat.
Usually divers will be able to jump in the water...either with fins mask and snorkel in hand, or wearing them.
Usually, divers will have wet suits on, and this is certainly worth doing on purpose if the weather is nasty, and you see any potential for ending up in the water due to a sinking. With a wetsuit on, or a dry suit, a diver SHOULD NOT NEED A SNORKEL VEST or a BC or a PFD, as the wet suit or dry suit adds huge bouyancy to the diver, and does not slow their swimming down so much.
But if you have your wetsuit on, and also wanted your snorkel vest, fine. The fins and mask and snorkel will be awsome tools, to get you where you want to be next.

5 miles, if you are in no rush, just making a leisurely swim, is not really so far with wet suit bouyancy, and that is extreme anyway--off of Palm Beach, most of our reefs are more like 2 miles out or less.

This is NOT gym talk. This is the talk of self sufficiency and planning.

DandyDon
December 4th, 2012, 03:39 PM
Don, the point is, in most sinkings you don't have a boat flipping over with zero time for divers to get in the water...and for the potential to be knocked unconscious to be so high as in the pitchforking of the cat.
Usually divers will be able to jump in the water...either with fins mask and snorkel in hand, or wearing them.
Usually, divers will have wet suits on, and this is certainly worth doing on purpose if the weather is nasty, and you see any potential for ending up in the water due to a sinking. With a wetsuit on, or a dry suit, a diver SHOULD NOT NEED A SNORKEL VEST or a BC or a PFD, as the wet suit or dry suit adds huge bouyancy to the diver, and does not slow their swimming down so much.
But if you have your wetsuit on, and also wanted your snorkel vest, fine. The fins and mask and snorkel will be awsome tools, to get you where you want to be next.

5 miles, if you are in no rush, just making a leisurely swim, is not really so far with wet suit bouyancy, and that is extreme anyway--off of Palm Beach, most of our reefs are more like 2 miles out or less.

This is NOT gym talk. This is the talk of self sufficiency and planning.
A completely donned wetsuit would be totally different, sure - but not common. Many don't don them until they're close to the drop site, then remove them before heading in. If you do wear one all the way on tho, that's different - no more floatation needed by most.

A 5 mile swim would take me all day I am sure, and I'd want some sort of flotation for the rest breaks. Ha! I remember the last time I took my kids on a 5 mile hike.

danvolker
December 4th, 2012, 04:13 PM
A completely donned wetsuit would be totally different, sure - but not common. Many don't don them until they're close to the drop site, then remove them before heading in. If you do wear one all the way on tho, that's different - no more floatation needed by most.

A 5 mile swim would take me all day I am sure, and I'd want some sort of flotation for the rest breaks. Ha! I remember the last time I took my kids on a 5 mile hike.

If conditions looked really crazy..seas huge, wind roaring, wouldn't it make you feel smarter to put on your full wetsuit? If there was zero reason for concern, then of course no wet suit...but if things are dicey--and that IS what we are talking about...then the diver should not be oblivious to the threat, and the idea of putting on the wet suit and getting some measure of self sufficiency should come to mind.

Don, this discussion started because of an approach to an inlet, so we are talking litterally hundreds of yards...not even a mile to make shore...not to mention nearby boats.
You are big on accident stats, so how many dive boat sinkings are there in a year, and what is the average distance from shore where the sinkings occur? One would expect this to be close to inlets, where things will be far worse than in deep water. But the stats should tell the story about off shore also...if no stats on this can be found, then we take each major dive destination in the US and the Carribean, and determine the average distance between its typical reefs, and the shore for each destination.....I think most will be less than 2 miles, but the average will be skewed a bit by extreme sites like North East Florida or North Carolina or the few other places where divers might need to be out over 20 miles from shore. Personally, I would not combine this, as it is an entirely different risk set--it is a much harsher diving environment also. Where diving off of Palm Beach or Grand Cayman, you can see the shore when you surface...But--- off of Jacksonville and 20 miles out, forget your view, you want a personal GPS and maybe Nautilus Lifeline.

Wookie
December 4th, 2012, 04:29 PM
I'll disagree. I think dive boats tend to sink very fast, far faster than you could grab a life jacket, mask and snerk, or a BCD. Looking at a few recent examples, the Get Wet in Key Largo last year, this incident, Sunset Party Cat in Key West 2 years ago, Wave Dancer, etc. The reason there were fatalities is that it happened fast. If it was a normal vessel with intact damage stability, they sink slow, allowing folks to get whatever protective gear they need and abandon ship in an orderly fashion.

danvolker
December 4th, 2012, 04:47 PM
I'll disagree. I think dive boats tend to sink very fast, far faster than you could grab a life jacket, mask and snerk, or a BCD. Looking at a few recent examples, the Get Wet in Key Largo last year, this incident, Sunset Party Cat in Key West 2 years ago, Wind Dancer, etc. The reason there were fatalities is that it happened fast. If it was a normal vessel with intact damage stability, they sink slow, allowing folks to get whatever protective gear they need and abandon ship in an orderly fashion.
All the more reason to wear a wetsuit if the conditions are looking scary....and to have mask snorkel and fins handy.
The one time really thought the charter boat I was on would likely get broached, I PUT ON my mask, snorkel and fins before the threat looked like it was imminent....a couple of minutes from the inlet.

Ayisha
December 4th, 2012, 08:31 PM
Capt Nigel of Wind Dancer fame made a bad judgement call too.....

I know of the bad judgement calls/improper equipment on the Wave Dancer Belize tragedy, but I don't think I'm familiar with the Wind Dancer misjudgement...

Wookie
December 4th, 2012, 08:35 PM
I know of the bad judgement calls/improper equipment on the Wave Dancer Belize tragedy, but I don't think I'm familiar with the Wind Dancer misjudgement...

Oops... I'll go fix it...

Ayisha
December 4th, 2012, 08:52 PM
Ok, I don't think the Captain's name was Nigel either. Calling the Wave Dancer tragedy bad judgement is a serious understatement. The events leading up to that tragedy were a series of bad judgements and cheaping out on improper rigging equipment, I think it was, by all management, culminating in many senseless deaths.

tddfleming
December 4th, 2012, 09:55 PM
Is that the multiply deaths of the divers from Richard va?
I know of the bad judgement calls/improper equipment on the Wave Dancer Belize tragedy, but I don't think I'm familiar with the Wind Dancer misjudgement...

mrfixitchapman
December 4th, 2012, 10:35 PM
International Merchant Marine Registry Of Belize final report on Wave Dancer sinking.

Link IMMARBE - International Merchant Marine Registry of Belize (http://www.immarbe.com/marine_casualty_report.html)

http://www.immarbe.com/IMMARBELIB/MCR_WAVE_DANCER.pdf

DC

peterbj7
December 5th, 2012, 09:30 PM
The Wave Dancer Belize disaster didn't result from poor technical judgement, but from an autocratic captain who had been put under a lot of inappropriate pressure by his management, and staff who (mostly) had no judgement of their own or were too timid to use it.

jar546
December 5th, 2012, 09:36 PM
Let me try that again Dandy Don.

I would not even think about trying to come in with conditions like this:


http://m.youtube.com/?reload=9&rdm=06at#/watch?v=d_Hdkt1_ivo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd_H dkt1_ivo

DandyDon
December 5th, 2012, 10:04 PM
Let me try that again Dandy Don.

I would not even think about trying to come in with conditions like this:


http://m.youtube.com/?reload=9&rdm=06at#/watch?v=d_Hdkt1_ivo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd_H dkt1_ivo
Well, thanks. Your link takes me to a similar one at http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Hdkt1_ivo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd_H dkt1_ivo and I can open that page, but not the clip... :dontknow:

I tried it on 3 different browers. How about giving me a link to the clip itself...??

Is this it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Hdkt1_ivo

jar546
December 5th, 2012, 10:32 PM
Well, thanks. Your link takes me to a similar one at Boat Goes Vertical at Boynton Inlet - YouTube (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Hdkt1_ivo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dd_H dkt1_ivo) and I can open that page, but not the clip... :dontknow:

I tried it on 3 different browers. How about giving me a link to the clip itself...??

Is this it? Boat Goes Vertical at Boynton Inlet - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Hdkt1_ivo)

its because I am on my iPad and the link will only work on mobile devices. Just figured it out. Left my computer at home so this is all I have.

go to YouTube and search "boynton inlet boat vertical" and you will see it. Please post it for others to see since I cant

DandyDon
December 5th, 2012, 11:02 PM
its because I am on my iPad and the link will only work on mobile devices. Just figured it out. Left my computer at home so this is all I have.

go to YouTube and search "boynton inlet boat vertical" and you will see it. Please post it for others to see since I cant
People who pretend their phones are computers... :shakehead:

I did. Read my post you quoted again.

d_Hdkt1_ivo

John_B
December 6th, 2012, 12:40 AM
Blame YouTube, not Peter's iPad:

Boat Goes Vertical at Boynton Inlet - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Hdkt1_ivo)

d_Hdkt1_ivo

Mike
December 6th, 2012, 12:45 AM
Holy Crap, if those were the conditions the day of the accident I can't believe a dive boat would go out in that.

SC_Hoaty
December 6th, 2012, 01:04 AM
Holy Crap, if those were the conditions the day of the accident I can't believe a dive boat would go out in that.

For starters, it is a different inlet....

---------- Post added December 6th, 2012 at 12:06 AM ----------

And it was uploaded 3 years ago....

---------- Post added December 6th, 2012 at 12:07 AM ----------

So it is a safe bet those were not the conditions the day of the accident.

Mike
December 6th, 2012, 01:24 AM
Thank God, that was jaw dropping!

jar546
December 6th, 2012, 08:44 AM
For starters, it is a different inlet....

---------- Post added December 6th, 2012 at 12:06 AM ----------

And it was uploaded 3 years ago....

---------- Post added December 6th, 2012 at 12:07 AM ----------

So it is a safe bet those were not the conditions the day of the accident.

If. They posted the word if


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Reck Diver
January 16th, 2013, 10:18 AM
I saw the boat the other day moored in Pompano Beach. Didn't look like any repairs had begun either. Any word if any charges have been filed against the Captain?

AAdiver69
January 18th, 2013, 03:19 AM
Pfds work!

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