Setting up BP/W - Questions....

[GoBlue!]

Hello, all-

As I mentioned in another post recently, just got my bp/w recently & am setting up for the first time w/ only the internet & scubaboard to help, as I don't have LDS support here....

First, to all in a similar situation: please feel free to use this thread to post any & all questions re: setting up any component of your bp/w. Don't mind this thread being hijacked in many directions, as long as all relate to bp/w setup/configuration questions.

Second, I remember a couple months back reading a treatise by one of our members about his blow-by-blow account of setting up his bp/w, also without the help of his LDS. Couldn't find it again with our pesky search engine; if anyone remembers who/where this post was, please direct me.

OK. I think I've got my shoulder strap lengths OK, the harness webbing threaded correctly, and the shoulder & left hip D-rings in place as they're supposed to be (although I'll post some pics eventually for comments). Now, I'm staring at the photos of the waist strap buckle....right hand release obviously & way over on the R hand side, I see. But, does the buckle get threaded onto the right or left side of the waist band? I'm looking at the pic on this website (http://dir-diver.com/en/equipment/backplate_adjustment.html), half-way down the page, and it seems that the way the buckle is being threaded it will either end up being a (1) left-hand release, if threaded onto the R-side of the waiststrap; or, a (2) right-hand release, if threaded onto the L-side of the waiststrap. Every schematic I've seen, however, shows the buckled being threaded on the right. Basically, I'm staring at my buckle confused. Can someone help??

Second question: I've read that connecting a bolt-snap to the SPG can be accomplished with thin zipties or with cave line. Both equally acceptable? Both DIR?

Third: How about the bolt-snap to the long hose? Should I use a breakaway connection, and if so, what is recommended? O-ring? Thin ziptie?

I'm sure more questions are going to pop up, but this'll get things started. Thanks to all for your help in equipment selection; I'm totally psyched about this system.

Jim

[Boogie711]

A) my website has some links to proper BP setup. Check it out - link is below.

B) In answer to your questions, I haven't attended DIR-F, but from perusal on these boards:

The buckle should be on your right hand side, and is a right-hand release. Zip ties are unacceptable in a DIR configuration - they break too easily. Use cave line. And the long-hose is now being considered a non-breakaway connection. Also use cave line.

Hope that helps.

[Snowbear]

Hello, all-

As I mentioned in another post recently, just got my bp/w recently & am setting up for the first time w/ only the internet & scubaboard to help, as I don't have LDS support here....

First, to all in a similar situation: please feel free to use this thread to post any & all questions re: setting up any component of your bp/w. Don't mind this thread being hijacked in many directions, as long as all relate to bp/w setup/configuration questions.

Second, I remember a couple months back reading a treatise by one of our members about his blow-by-blow account of setting up his bp/w, also without the help of his LDS. Couldn't find it again with our pesky search engine; if anyone remembers who/where this post was, please direct me.

OK. I think I've got my shoulder strap lengths OK, the harness webbing threaded correctly, and the shoulder & left hip D-rings in place as they're supposed to be (although I'll post some pics eventually for comments). Now, I'm staring at the photos of the waist strap buckle....right hand release obviously & way over on the R hand side, I see. But, does the buckle get threaded onto the right or left side of the waist band? I'm looking at the pic on this website (http://dir-diver.com/en/equipment/backplate_adjustment.html), half-way down the page, and it seems that the way the buckle is being threaded it will either end up being a (1) left-hand release, if threaded onto the R-side of the waiststrap; or, a (2) right-hand release, if threaded onto the L-side of the waiststrap. Every schematic I've seen, however, shows the buckled being threaded on the right. Basically, I'm staring at my buckle confused. Can someone help??

Second question: I've read that connecting a bolt-snap to the SPG can be accomplished with thin zipties or with cave line. Both equally acceptable? Both DIR?

Third: How about the bolt-snap to the long hose? Should I use a breakaway connection, and if so, what is recommended? O-ring? Thin ziptie?

I'm sure more questions are going to pop up, but this'll get things started. Thanks to all for your help in equipment selection; I'm totally psyched about this system.

Jim

Boogies site has a pretty good how to on threading the harness.

As for the buckle - It should be on the strap coming from your left side, which makes it a right hand release. The DIR folks like it off-center to the right side to prevent the crotch strap from opening the buckle if you are scootering.

To answer questions 2 & 3 - DIR likes bolt snaps to be attached with cave line. I think Zip ties are awesome (as are duct tape, bungies and blue tarps - just ask any true blue Alaskan!) - you just have to replace them more often.

[roturner]

Hello, all-

<snip> (2) right-hand release, if threaded onto the L-side of the waiststrap. Every schematic I've seen, however, shows the buckled being threaded on the right. Basically, I'm staring at my buckle confused. Can someone help??

When you put it that way it confuses me too. Look at this picture:
http://www.wkpp.org/images/pina_equip/backplate_top_r.jpg
and you will clearly see which side it's on. You'll be able to deduce the rest from there.



Second question: I've read that connecting a bolt-snap to the SPG can be accomplished with thin zipties or with cave line. Both equally acceptable? Both DIR?


Either zipties or caveline work just fine for the spg. You might fine line a bit sturdier on the long run.



Third: How about the bolt-snap to the long hose? Should I use a breakaway connection, and if so, what is recommended? O-ring? Thin ziptie?


I would (do) use an O-ring. you wrap the o-ring 1/2 way around the hose and then thread the line or a ziptie through the two sides of the o-ring to tie off. Obviously in this case the ziptie is easier to work with.

Jim[/QUOTE]

[roakey]

BAUE has some great stuff:

http://www.baue.org/images/galleries/view_album.php?set_albumName=equipment

Roak

[Genesis]

I use an O-ring on the long hose. DIR may want a non-breakaway connection, but I want it to break away if I need it to.

If its clipped off and the clip jams for any reason, I MUST be able to get that reg free IMMEDIATELY if my buddy goes OOA. Taking the time to CUT it free is unacceptable. That reg is there for the pleasure of my buddy.

I accept the risk of losing the clip-off capability if I break the O-ring unexpectedly in exchange for the safety factor of being able to QUICKLY get that reg free and available if I need it.

IMHO the DIR folks are wrong on this one.

[LUBOLD8431]

Well, actually in an OOA, the correct response would be to donate whats in your mouth. So, if your seven foot hose is clipped off, you wouldnt donate it. YOu would then breath off of your backup which is right under your chin on a necklace...

[WreckWriter]

Buckle is threaded on the left hand (as you wear it) strap, which needs to be long enough so the buckle ends up right of center after going through your crotch strap. A second buckle is often used on the right strap to retain the can light. This buckle is not threaded, just clamped.

All snaps are tied on with cave line, one good way is explained here: http://www.diveriteexpress.com/library/boltsnap.shtml
which also tells how to do the non-DIR breakaway method.

WW

[GoBlue!]

All snaps are tied on with cave line, one good way is explained here: http://www.diveriteexpress.com/library/boltsnap.shtml
which also tells how to do the non-DIR breakaway method.

Is the breakaway method non-DIR? In JJ's book, referring to the long hose, it's stated "When not in use, e.g., during stage diving or during decompression, this regulator is clipped off to the right chest D-ring using a breakaway clip." (p. 82) Have they changed their tune?

Jim

[WreckWriter]

<shrug> My definition of what is/isn't comes from George. He told me that rebreather bailouts are the only thing that gets a breakaway. I'm not sure what GUE is currently teaching but I think its cave line attachment.

WW

[bwerb]

WW is right...the current teaching has been changed to caveline for everything except RB bailouts.

[GoBlue!]

OK, the buckle is on, crotch strap adjusted (I think), and all seems to be fitting well.

Next question: the STA. The Oxycheq plate has 2 holes that the top portion of the STA can be attached to; one, however, is covered by the webbing. Is there anything wrong with just using the uppermost (open) holes to attach the STA & leave the webbing covering the other hole?

The only reason I bring this up is that I've seen in a couple places (GI's schematic & one of the "how to web a harness" sites) that a burn hole is to be made through the webbing into one of the holes of the plate. Should I do this, or does the STA & the weave of the webbing hold things in place well enough on their own?

Pictures would be helpful....see attached.

Thanks,
Jim

[Genesis]

The webbing should have a brass or SS grommet put through it that aligns with the hole in the plate. This is the top mount for either doubles or an STA.

The bottom hole is not obstructed.

The reason for the grommet is to prevent any possibility of the webbing shifting while you are wearing the rig. I use a brass grommet, since they're easily applied and available in any decent boat store in the proper size.

If you use the top hole the standard spacing will not be maintained. For a single-piece STA it probably won't work at all; for a 2-piece it will likely cause the tank to be too high when mounted, as the break of the tank will be below the top cam-band. Also, for doubles, it won't work for the same reason; the tanks will be too high even if you set up your own bands, and someone who has "standard" sets of doubles definitely will have problems as the holes simply won't line up with where the bolts are.

[GoBlue!]

The webbing should have a brass or SS grommet put through it that aligns with the hole in the plate. This is the top mount for either doubles or an STA.

The bottom hole is not obstructed.

The reason for the grommet is to prevent any possibility of the webbing shifting while you are wearing the rig. I use a brass grommet, since they're easily applied and available in any decent boat store in the proper size.

If you use the top hole the standard spacing will not be maintained. For a single-piece STA it probably won't work at all; for a 2-piece it will likely cause the tank to be too high when mounted, as the break of the tank will be below the top cam-band. Also, for doubles, it won't work for the same reason; the tanks will be too high even if you set up your own bands, and someone who has "standard" sets of doubles definitely will have problems as the holes simply won't line up with where the bolts are.

Genesis-

Thanks for the reply. I'm a bit confused how to do this, however. If you look at the pics of my BP, the webbing seems to naturally course the back of the backplate, covering the bottom of the 2 holes. I'd have to bow the webbing vertically to get it to align with the top hole in order to put in a grommet.

The STA (Oxycheq as well) spans the plate fine, using either of the 2 sets of holes (note that there are 2 holes at the bottom of the plate as well, both obviously unobstructed, and equidistant from the top two holes). The height of the tank, however, was going to be my concern (haven't yet rented a tank to test the thing out).

Jim

[roakey]

If you look at the pics of my BP, the webbing seems to naturally course the back of the backplate, covering the bottom of the 2 holes. I'd have to bow the webbing vertically to get it to align with the top hole in order to put in a grommet.
Are you talking about this hole, that's melted into the strap using a sacrificial soldering iron tip?

Roak

[GoBlue!]

Are you talking about this hole, that's melted into the strap using a sacrificial soldering iron tip?

Roak

Yes, exactly.

What did you put through it, and where does your STA attach if diving a single tank?

Jim

[CD_in_Chitown]

Yes, exactly.

What did you put through it, and where does your STA attach if diving a single tank?



Sounds like Roak used a soldering iron, I've used a dremel and a lighter to clean/seal it but this is a two step method for us unfortunates without a soldering iron.

You can then attach the STA through that hole. You can use either set of holes, and will probably find that balance is primarily in one of them. Try it out for the best feel.

[GoBlue!]

Sounds like Roak used a soldering iron, I've used a dremel and a lighter to clean/seal it but this is a two step method for us unfortunates without a soldering iron.

You can then attach the STA through that hole. You can use either set of holes, and will probably find that balance is primarily in one of them. Try it out for the best feel.

I should've clarified.... I noted that he sacrificed a soldering iron tip to melt through the webbing; I was wondering what he put through the hole he was left with - a grommet of some sort, as genesis did?

Jim

[blackice]

Lets hope it all comes together so you can go diving soon. If this is your first BP/W set up then you are in for a treat. It's a great way to dive, at first it may take extra time above water but the real pay off is underwater where the tank is one with your body and doesn't move, the same can be said for twins. It an allround solid and sound set up for all sorts of diving. Enjoy.

[Boogie711]

I have a $4.99 soldering iron I bought from someplace cheap which has only one purpose in life - to burn holes through things. It works great, but the tip is pretty gross now. I sure as heck wouldn't want to do any soldering with the thing.

[Genesis]

Genesis-

Thanks for the reply. I'm a bit confused how to do this, however. If you look at the pics of my BP, the webbing seems to naturally course the back of the backplate, covering the bottom of the 2 holes. I'd have to bow the webbing vertically to get it to align with the top hole in order to put in a grommet.

The STA (Oxycheq as well) spans the plate fine, using either of the 2 sets of holes (note that there are 2 holes at the bottom of the plate as well, both obviously unobstructed, and equidistant from the top two holes). The height of the tank, however, was going to be my concern (haven't yet rented a tank to test the thing out).

Jim

No, you want it across the bottom of the two holes, and you want a hole and grommet in the webbing there.

If you mount on the higher of the two holes your tank will be too high and/or the plate too low. With a single you'll almost certainly ram your head into the tank and it will make you REAL head-heavy in the water.

My Halcyon plate doesn't have the "top" hole, and I wouldn't use it if it WAS there.

If you to to West Marine store you will find large grommet kits that will work just fine. They include a tool for punching the hole in the webbing as well as two iron pieces used to install the grommet and "form" the inside edges to lock it in place.

[CD_in_Chitown]

I was wondering what he put through the hole he was left with - a grommet of some sort, as genesis did?

Sorry, I didn't mean to restate the obvious Jim. You can seal the hole with the soldering iron (or in my case a lighter) just like you burn the end of cut webbing and alleviate the need for a grommet. Some guys might buy the grommet punch at Home Depot and attach one there but I think it's not necessary from a functional standpoint, and not visible from a cosmetic standpoint. People go without them FWIW.

[roakey]

I was wondering what he put through the hole he was left with - a grommet of some sort, as genesis did?
Nothing, the soldering iron leaves a very well sealed hole that won't unreavel or anything. Plus it's flatter than putting a grommet through it. After building a number of plates I think the grommet is a waste of time.

That plate's a couple years old, see any problems with the hole? :)

Roak

[GoBlue!]

OK, now that I've got a dive trip a couple weeks away & am getting excited about diving the new configuration, I've found that I have a couple more questions.

First, I'm putting together 2 setups, one for me & one for my wife. They're identical (Oxycheq STA, wing, Scubapro Cam straps) except for the backplates (one Oxycheq, one FredT).

Two questions (for now):

1. I'm confused by the vertical positioning of the wing on the plate with respect to the STA. The wing has two grommets in both the top & bottom positions, and the plate has two holes in both the top & bottom positions; but, they don't align (with the Oxycheq plate; with the FredT plate they do). It seems that the STA must get bolted through the bottommost grommets of the wing & subsequently through the bottommost holes of the plate (see the thread above....the STA-plate question has been answered, I'm just trying to work in the wing). I suppose that this is the correct wing position, as if I move the wing down (i.e., bolt the STA through the TOP holes of the wing), the slots for the cam straps no longer align. See the attached pictures if this doesn't make any sense.

2. How do I route the cam straps? Do they only feed through the slots of the STA? Do they somehow thread through the wing+STA? Wing+STA+plate??

Thanks!
Jim

[COVCI]

No need to thread them though the wing slots.

That way, if you need to use the adjustment option of using a different set of holes on the plate, you just loosen the bolts and then put then in the other set of holes.

Hope this helps.
Chris
COVCI

[Genesis]

You normally thread the cam bands through the STA only - not through the wing slots.

The wing can be mounted in whatever position gives you the best trim. You will need to try both to find out which you want to use; with Oxy's doubles wings there are three choices.

I usually dive my singles wing with it in the top set of holes, but YMMV depending on how much weight you wear and where it is.

[czzzaar]

Oh man, all this confusing talk has me worried. I have an Oxycheq BP/W system on order...that should arrive in about 2 more weeks.

I have a question Genesis. What plate did you get (size and weight), and what is the weight of your STA? Just wondering if I should have gone for the 6 pounder?

Was there a previous thread on what lead to your choices? (I just did a search on oxycheq to find this one).

[hantzu701]

No need to thread them though the wing slots.

That way, if you need to use the adjustment option of using a different set of holes on the plate, you just loosen the bolts and then put then in the other set of holes.

Hope this helps.
Chris
COVCI

The Oxycheq hardware provided w/ the bp and STa consist of bolts, wing nuts and washers. The washers are flat. As a result, the wing nut can loosen. If the wing nut loosens enough, you could lose your Tank, the STA and your wing. Not very pretty.

Adding split washers seems to fix this problem. The bolt provided is short, so you may have to discard the flat washer.

Don't forget that you'll need to burn a hole in the webbing and the webbing will stretch. You'll need to readjust your harness as necessary.

[GoBlue!]

Adding split washers seems to fix this problem. The bolt provided is short, so you may have to discard the flat washer.


Guess I'll have to go to home depot & look at split washers...are they that much thinner? I noted the bolts are pretty short, and that's what led me to wonder if the cam straps were only supposed to go through the STA. Seems like if the wings nuts loosened up, the tank is gone & the wing is floating away from the plate! Sounds like securing the STA is the most important part of this.

Jim

[Genesis]

Oh man, all this confusing talk has me worried. I have an Oxycheq BP/W system on order...that should arrive in about 2 more weeks.

I have a question Genesis. What plate did you get (size and weight), and what is the weight of your STA? Just wondering if I should have gone for the 6 pounder?

Was there a previous thread on what lead to your choices? (I just did a search on oxycheq to find this one).

I have both a SS and AL plate; use 'em for different things. Most of the time I dive the SS plate.

My STA is the OMS 1-piece ans weighs about 2lbs.

A lot of my common configurations are dove without any ditchable, or very little. My typical "warm ocean" single-tank config is a SS BP + STA and 2lbs of lead with a steel tank - full 3 mil suit.

My "light ocean doubles" rig is an AL BP, 0 ditchable, and twin 72s or HP100s, again diving wet.

With a drysuit and light doubles I need a variable amount of weight (depending on the insulation I am wearing.)

[LUBOLD8431]

Guess I'll have to go to home depot & look at split washers...are they that much thinner? I noted the bolts are pretty short, and that's what led me to wonder if the cam straps were only supposed to go through the STA. Seems like if the wings nuts loosened up, the tank is gone & the wing is floating away from the plate! Sounds like securing the STA is the most important part of this.

Jim

Just like the hardware for a set of doubles, I use flat washers and wingnuts on my STA. No problems. You just check it before the dive, and there you go. Ive never had any problems with my doubles wingnut loosening up, and Ive never switched the washers to split washers. I think you guys are getting worked up over a non-issue. Use the hardware that is provided. You will have no problems. Thousands of people use this same hardware, and they havent lost their cylinder...

:chill:

[Genesis]

I have changed to split washers, but not because of a tank getting seriously loose. It only has to be a bit loose to start shifting around, and I find that disconcerting - the split washers stop that.

They're a whole few cents each at West Marine (make sure you get the Stainless Steel ones!)

[hantzu701]

Just like the hardware for a set of doubles, I use flat washers and wingnuts on my STA. No problems. You just check it before the dive, and there you go. Ive never had any problems with my doubles wingnut loosening up, and Ive never switched the washers to split washers. I think you guys are getting worked up over a non-issue. Use the hardware that is provided. You will have no problems. Thousands of people use this same hardware, and they havent lost their cylinder...

:chill:

*I* almost lost my STA and tank on an ocean dive because a wing nut came off. I was hanging out by the anchor line waiting to begin the dive. The waves were pushing me around and I felt the wing and tank sway a bit. I reached around and the wingnut on the lower bolt came off. The tank and STA pivoted on the upper bolt. It was clear that the upper wingnut was also loose. If the bolt had sheared as the wing flipped up, then I would have lost my wing, STA and tank. More worrisome, I was slightly negative in current and waves. Lucky for me, the upper bolt/wingnut held and I reboarded the boat.

Granted, I was a dummy for not checking the wingnuts. But, there should be a minimum expectation that your equipment/rig is reliable. Eg. You don't check the nuts on your car tires before every trip. On my subsequent dives, I would routinely check the wingnuts and often find that they had loosened from 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn. During the dive, this translated into some disconcerting tank sway at the surface. I found that the split washers were my set it and forget it solution.

[jonnythan]

*I* almost lost my STA and tank on an ocean dive because a wing nut came off. I was hanging out by the anchor line waiting to begin the dive. The waves were pushing me around and I felt the wing and tank sway a bit. I reached around and the wingnut on the lower bolt came off. The tank and STA pivoted on the upper bolt. It was clear that the upper wingnut was also loose. If the bolt had sheared as the wing flipped up, then I would have lost my wing, STA and tank.

No you wouldn't have. The tank is attached directly to you through your BC inflator, clipped off SPG, and drysuit inflator if you had one.

Besides, critical points like wingnuts should be checked pre-dive. And put some loc-tite on them if you're not using locking washers.

[MikeFerrara]

I've seen a BUNCH of people loose tanks. Well they didn't loose em but the sure looked funny going through the water or climbing out of the water with their tanks dangling.

I always use lock washers. I still check the wing nuts before a dive though.

[Rick Inman]

Web instruction... Can't live with it, can't live without it.
I just got my Oxycheq wing and FredT BP and have spent hours on the web (and SB) looking at diagrams and pics and reading posts to put the thing together. No one in this one-horse-town knows how to put together a BP/W set-up. Actually, I'm having a blast doing it. My wife just laughs at me and says stuff like,

"Why are you re-threading those straps AGAIN?"

"No, I won't help you out of it. You got yourself in, and you're funny to watch."

"What in the world are you doing with all those old bicycle tire tubes?"

"Do you actually DIVE in that thing, or do you just take it on and off in the house all day?"

"You paid HOW MUCH for the piece of metal?"

"First you want grommets, then you don't. Then you want lock washers, then you don't, then you do again. You put on zip ties, then you cut them off and put on nylon line. Do you have any idea what you're doing? You're not really going to go underwater with the steel plate you've mickey-moused with rope and bungee cords and old bicycle tubes strapped to your back, are you?"

I showed her this:

Come over for some dives when you get it and I'll help you set it up.

"Well, I guess it's Ok, as long as Uncle Pug checks you out before you hit the water."

Her confidence in me is daunting...