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DORSETBOY
January 16th, 2004, 04:47 AM
I learnt to dive through padi, taught through padi and then when I moved back to the uk (having dived frequently in the uk before) got a frosty attitude cos I was a padi diver and not bsac when I wanted to join the local club.

Surely this is going to discourage people from diving in the uk if SOME bsac members are so up themselves.

annie
January 16th, 2004, 06:00 AM
Hi

I'm sure it will discourage people - I think it's a daft attitude and only reflects badly on those who have it. I must say I haven't gotten any of that trying to join CFT clubs here in Ireland, maybe partly because I'm a DM and they see me as being a bit more advanced, but overall clubs here have had a great attitude. One club even told me that they particularly welcomed PADI divers as opposed to divers from other CFT clubs; apparently club members also learn bad habits from each other and some fresh blood from a different system is a good thing.

Annie

RobK
January 16th, 2004, 06:05 AM
I learnt to dive through padi, taught through padi and then when I moved back to the uk (having dived frequently in the uk before) got a frosty attitude cos I was a padi diver and not bsac when I wanted to join the local club.


Well the answer to that is find a different club.

BSAC clubs are like clubs anywhere; there are some that are great and full of welcoming friendly divers and there are some that are full of idiots and dinosaurs. Don't be too put off as I'm sure you'll be able to find a club that fits your needs.

Best thing to do is ask on the BSAC forum www.bsacforum.co.uk and you should get some pointers to more clubs in your area.

You could also investigate some of the other agencies such as the SAA www.saa.org.uk



Surely this is going to discourage people from diving in the uk if SOME bsac members are so up themselves.

Yeah but let's be honest. Being up themselves is not limited to BSAC club members. :irazz:

HTH
Rob.

DORSETBOY
January 16th, 2004, 06:16 AM
fair one, I realise I am generalising tremendously on the basis of my experience of a cople of clubs... just dont like the whole dive politics crap.

RobK
January 16th, 2004, 06:21 AM
fair one, I realise I am generalising tremendously on the basis of my experience of a cople of clubs... just dont like the whole dive politics crap.

Me neither, that's why I'm in a club that doesn't have any politics :laugh:

They do exist, honest!

Cheers,
Rob.

roturner
January 16th, 2004, 06:45 AM
fair one, I realise I am generalising tremendously on the basis of my experience of a cople of clubs... just dont like the whole dive politics crap.

It's also good to keep in mind that the arrogance isn't limited to BSAC. Some of what you are seeing may in fact be a reaction to previous (bad) experiences with PADI divers in that area.

R..

DORSETBOY
January 16th, 2004, 06:53 AM
That's also true, I would expect though to get the benefit of the doubt particularly given that I am an instructor. In the same way, when I've ed fun dives and had non-padi divers out with me I've given them the benefit of the doubt as I would any diver.

roturner
January 16th, 2004, 07:08 AM
That's also true, I would expect though to get the benefit of the doubt particularly given that I am an instructor. In the same way, when I've ed fun dives and had non-padi divers out with me I've given them the benefit of the doubt as I would any diver.

Indeed. I don't have much experience diving with BSAC divers but the experiences I have had were very positive. It could be that you just happened across a poor club.

R..

chrisch
January 16th, 2004, 07:13 AM
Why do you want to join a club?? All clubs have the odd few tossers in them and if they don't yet there are some waiting to join....

I am PADI and joined a BSAC club for a while - on the whole they were great and I did plenty of diving with them. I don't like BSAC's rules much and think it needs to modernise, but I would join again if we weren't leaving to go to Italy... The thing to do is rise above the odd few members that are idiots - usually they are easy to humiliate as they tend to know FA about what they are talking about.
The thing I found was the cost and that is why I let the membership lapse. Our club was affiliated to the local yacht club and with two sets of fees to pay it didn't make sense money wise. Shame - there were some benefits.

Chris

DORSETBOY
January 16th, 2004, 07:28 AM
Cos, Im from swansea and didnt know any other divers up this way in scotland when I came back from abroad. Have had a look at the ukdiving website and met up with a few divers that way, I just feel it's a shame that some of the clubs I looked at locally to me weren't that welcoming and it was made clear to me that it was because of my training agency.

GDI
January 16th, 2004, 10:01 AM
When I looked at clubs from Canada, the UK and even here in the USA I found that some were very receiving regardless of agency affiliation and others were very shall I say selective. The most common thing I saw in regards to an agency thing was the esprit de corp most of it was of a light nature of jestering. There were those who appeared blinded to only one agency having supremacy, for the most part they were ignored. The second most common thing was the need from some club divers who felt the new diver had to prove themselves. I suppose this is a trait of human nature. Truthfully, usually the better divers never fell prey to this and those who sought this higher than thou need of one upmanship made dives only within their ilk

dbulmer
January 16th, 2004, 10:58 AM
When I looked at clubs from Canada, the UK and even here in the USA I found that some were very receiving regardless of agency affiliation and others were very shall I say selective. The most common thing I saw in regards to an agency thing was the esprit de corp most of it was of a light nature of jestering. There were those who appeared blinded to only one agency having supremacy, for the most part they were ignored. The second most common thing was the need from some club divers who felt the new diver had to prove themselves. I suppose this is a trait of human nature. Truthfully, usually the better divers never fell prey to this and those who sought this higher than thou need of one upmanship made dives only within their ilk

GDI,
I think your observation is spot on. I'm PADI trained in warm water and I am making the transition from warm to cold. Sometimes there are people who try to dive beyond their experience (as you have no doubt witnessed yourself at some point ) and to be honest I can often understand the BSAC attitude at times - some warm water divers expect to be able to dive in the UK without the training that BSAC/SAA require - that said it would be a small minority in either case.

DorsetDiver,

In the SAA club I am in, there are some DIR divers and you thought BSAC were bad!!! :)
In all seriousness at club level, divers of all agencies are looking at decent skills and experience to handle cold water - it's not so much a PADI thing but a skills awareness/practice issue. In your case as a DM with UK experience I'd find it annoying - in my case as a tropically trained inexperienced OW bloke I find it refreshing.

It was a BSAC chap who got me interested in UK diving so as others say - it ain't the agency !

DORSETBOY
January 16th, 2004, 11:19 AM
Fair one! With the benefit of hindsight I can see that you never REALLY know what a diver is like regardless of whatever the qualification until you see them in the water.
Nice to be back though diving in the UK, just wish my pesky job didnt stop me diving during the week!

AzAtty
January 16th, 2004, 12:27 PM
BSAC's President is HRH Prince Charles, while PADI is an organization founded by some uppity colonists across HRH's pond. Being a Scot, and nominally one of HRH's subject, it's high treason for you to be certified by the aforementioned uppity colonists. Normally, it would be the Tower for you, but since that's now a tourist destination, BSAC clubs can only give you the cold shoulder. :34:

And that's the truth. Back to work on my conspiracy theory...

mogwai
January 16th, 2004, 12:46 PM
Alright Dorset Boy, cant remember if i gave you this website before but will stick it in here for you. No politics and plenty of diving. Give my instructor a wee buzz through the website and let him know you are about, no politics guaranteed, we just spend a lot of time in the water, get in touch.


http://www.central-scuba.co.uk

torbaydiver
January 16th, 2004, 02:52 PM
I learnt to dive through padi, taught through padi and then when I moved back to the uk (having dived frequently in the uk before) got a frosty attitude cos I was a padi diver and not bsac when I wanted to join the local club.

Surely this is going to discourage people from diving in the uk if SOME bsac members are so up themselves.

I'm Padi trained and joined a large bsac club and they really are not bothered whether I even crossover or not!
I would just join the club if I was you and make the most of the boat diving and ignore their frosty attitude it will soon disappear as they get to know you.
I must admit my club is a bit stand-off ish, but I just ignore that and make the most of the diving!

Oldenboldiver
January 17th, 2004, 06:46 AM
Hi Dorsetboy,

I'm really sorry to hear of your poor experience with local BSAC clubs. This really shouldn't happen, BSAC have spent a lot of time trying to re-educate branches into emphasising that 'diver' is the key description, not the acronym at the front!

Anyway, I don't know where you are in Scotland but you could contact either Doug Smith (BSAC North Scotland Coach) or Sandra Castro (BSAC South Scotland Coach) via the BSAC website (or pm me for contact details) I'm sure they'd be delighted to hear of your experience and perhaps arrange to visit the club in question to investigate their negative attitude. It might not benefit you but could help others in a similar position in future.

Cheers

Oldie

brizzolatti
January 17th, 2004, 07:22 AM
Hi, Dorsetboy. I had similar experience to you. I contacted one club, went to see them one pool night, wanting to get involved and do more training. They were going to get back to me with dates to start. It was set up, then it was postponed. They would get back to me .... I am still waiting and have since done my pADI Rescue Diver and got involved with a PADI set up. You can PM me if you'd like details. In looking for a BSAC club, I also emailed another couple giving some background and got no response at all. All I am looking for is the opportunity to keep skills up to date, further my dive education and dive, dive, dive. My limited experience is that BSAC aren't flexible and responsive though I'm sure there are good clubs out there if you keep looking.

PS - COnger Alley is quite a nice dive in good conditions - not all mud!

String
January 17th, 2004, 12:10 PM
More than simple 1 agency vs another from my experience the main gripe is the "2 day wonder" once a year holiday diver.

A PADI diver who learnt and/or dives in the UK seems to be treated fairly well.

A 2 day holiday diver making 3 or 4 a year maximum in foreign clear locations tends to be the one that isnt.

There are obvious reasons for this suspicion and certainly abroad on trips you can tell the once-a-year wonders (occasionally liabilities) vs the more switched on divers easily. Again, this isnt an agency thing, its a diver thing.

Ive heard some other PADI arguments which i half agree with (Their "Advanced" open water needs a name change IMHO) but generally its the diver not the agency that causes the problem.

Do a search on BSAC or Divernet sites for BSAC v PADI and you'll find threads running to 100s of replies and flame wars, the vast majority of which is just handbags with no useful content.

DORSETBOY
January 18th, 2004, 08:58 AM
NICE ONE MOGWAI... will drop him a message from my work email... cheers everyone!

annie
January 20th, 2004, 12:22 PM
What's the average cost of joining a BSAC club over there and does that include air / boat fuel?

Thx

DORSETBOY
January 21st, 2004, 06:01 AM
Think the cost was about 30 pa for the club in question.

chrisch
January 21st, 2004, 06:40 AM
30 quid???? I think not. My renewal fees were 43 to BSAC and another 50 to the branch. On top of that was another fee for the yacht club. Times two as my missus dives too.

Boat dives were a little cheaper than commercial rates. Plus unlimited air and O2 for nitrox at a couple of quid a fill.

Training is "at cost" so if you need it then the money might make sense - if you are OWSI I don't think you need a lot of training....

I worked out we needed to do about 40 club dives a year to break even. My average most years is about 30. In fairness, we dived much more when we belonged to the club, so that was a benefit. Also we lived a long way from the branch so we did not get the social side.

Hope it all works out for you.
Chris

DORSETBOY
January 21st, 2004, 11:37 AM
pretty sure on that one, did not inc fee to ssac which was seperate charge.

BlueSky
January 22nd, 2004, 07:10 AM
Hi Dorsetboy,

I agree that that is not a decent way to welcome new members in a bsac club. However, I somewhat can understand why they have some doubts about padi certified divers. I learned to dive in Western Europe. Conditions here are tough. Very cold, often very low viz, currents may be strong...
Now, when we get new members in the club that have learned to dive in a padi school somewhere in Egypt or Thailand for example, we are cautious too. With reason. We have never had a padi open water diver that was capable to join us in open water dives immediately! Instead, we have to run the basic skills for diving in these conditions by them from scratch. I am certain that local padi schools give good courses. But they are far less thorough than ours. I know, because I've been there. I can assure you that when you are accustomed to dive in clear warm waters, you are scared witless the first time you dive in Zeeland.

Nevertheless, they'd better look at your experience instead of at your certification. The bsac guys, I mean.

Greetz,

BlueSky.

Oh, and by the way, membership in our club is 80 euro/year :-))

DORSETBOY
January 22nd, 2004, 08:44 AM
fair one bluesky, but had done more than a hundred dives in the uk before travelling and picked up a further 600+ whilst away, have dived frequently in south wales in ZERO viz (to get wet!) and now dive scottish west coast with no worries!

budgy
January 25th, 2004, 09:29 PM
I'm in SSAC. There are many more branches of SSAC than BSAC in Scotland. I didn't notice at first you were living in Scotland, or I would have answered sooner. I live in Kilmarnock. In a dive branch the casual diving members often outnumber the regularly active divers sometimes 8 or 10 to 1. Many divers are not happy with their branch, or how their run, generally we call it politics. Whilst there are many very generous individuals in clubs, people are often unable to interact with one another, or are dissatisfied to the extent of reducing their association or leaving. BSAC, SSAC, SAA, all rely on constant recruitment to maintain numbers, expectation is a 25% turnover per annum. For a trainee a dive club is a cheap place for good basic training in local conditions and the loan of equipment. For someone like yourself its hard to see how branches without a compressor or boat offer value. Sometimes the office bearers of branches are not active divers and have far less experience than you. I have noticed other active experienced divers having problems joining a branch. Maybe because their knowledge and ability unsettles the status quo of the members and is resented. I recently saw a Padi instructor with mixed gas, re-breather and scuba technician experience rejected by a not very active branch D.O. There are many club officials, that give me the impression that far from trying to increase diving knowledge, retard and resent the efforts of those who intend going beyond the basic non deco sport level. Particularly active enthusiasts that have surpassed them and are still seeking development.

budgy
January 25th, 2004, 09:53 PM
http://www.atlantic-divers.co.uk is a padi club that may interest you.

sbloomer
January 28th, 2004, 04:55 AM
It seems rivalry (politics) between associations and between clubs is pretty rife everywhere, which is a pity because we're all doing the same thing really.

Here in SA I recieved my initial training under CMAS (1* and 2*). The commercial operations (all NAUI or PADI) tended to frown at the certification, in spite of the fact that I had a lot of dives under a lot of varying conditions. At that time if you were a member of a club, the only training you could do was CMAS, as the South African Underwater Union is affiliated to CMAS (and all clubs have to be registered with SAUU). The jist of this is that most NAUI and PADI divers were coming into clubs after their training, and gave any CMAS trained divers the hairy eyeball. My point is that this same kind of thing may be occurring in DORSETBOY's case. NAUI and PADI divers may be viewed with a bit of suspicion. It doesn't seem to matter here as much now as it did then some 15 years ago.

As a matter of interest some clubs here do orientation days, where all new members spend a Sunday together with existing members, with the club sponsoring a day's free air/nitrox/boat. In the afternoon, everyone has a relaxing braai (sorry ... barbeque). That way everyone gets to know each other and their abilities, and their initial affiliations are basically forgotten.

DORSETBOY
January 28th, 2004, 05:15 AM
As a matter of interest some clubs here do orientation days, where all new members spend a Sunday together with existing members, with the club sponsoring a day's free air/nitrox/boat. In the afternoon, everyone has a relaxing braai (sorry ... barbeque). That way everyone gets to know each other and their abilities, and their initial affiliations are basically forgotten.

This seems an excellent idea. I guess it's also important for any dive organisation to ensure that people have the training to react in a simliar manner if an emergency arose.

turnerjd
January 28th, 2004, 06:05 AM
I've had similar problems here in france. I'm PADI trained, and have done almost all my diving in UK waters. When I moved here three years ago, there was no agreement between PADI and the French Federation (FFESSM) that all the clubs are affiliated to. No agreement between the two, and in general the clubs won't take you. At that particular point in time, all PADI divers were considered by the FFESSM as unqualified to dive in france :-(

It took 18 months, the signing of an agreement between the two agencies (that they recognise each other, and putting in place methods to crossover), and trying several clubs before I was able to join a club (even after the agencies had signed an agreement). Fortunately I have managed to find a decent club (that were prepared to put the effort in so that I could get a federal licence) and am now happily diving with them.

Smile... things could be far worse..............

Jon T

DORSETBOY
January 28th, 2004, 06:50 AM
so I smiled and was happy.... and behold things did get worse!

turnerjd
January 28th, 2004, 07:09 AM
so I smiled and was happy.... and behold things did get worse!

Oops... are things that bad?

Are there no other clubs in the area that you can try? have the links suggested here come to nothing?

Jon T

DORSETBOY
January 28th, 2004, 08:46 AM
No, only joking! All sorted now thanks, also found a really helpful webiste called ukdiving.co.uk which has a section for linking up with other divers, sorry dont know how to put on here as a link!

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