Counterfeit Scuba Gear

[yknot]

60 Minutes had a segment on last night's show about the unbelievable amount of counterfeit merchandise being produced in China and consequently how little of it is detected coming in to the US. Incidently, Chinese officials responsible for stopping this stuff sounded like it's all part of the price we are going to pay for doing business in China, as they don't appear to be doing anything substantial to stop it. I've seen some mentions about counterfeit scuba gear on this board but never any thing specific. Has anyone here encountered (personally, not anecdotally) any counterfeit scuba gear?

[awap]

I saw what appeared to be a counterfit Scubapro Ladyhawk on e-bay a couple years ago. It looked right expect it was missing a right shoulder pull dump. When I inquired to the seller, the offer disappeared. I heard later that SP had a problem with an one of the BC manufactures continueint to produce after the contract ended. Supposedly, Leisurepro had some of those BCs which caused some interesting anti-LP PR for a while.

[yknot]

I heard later that SP had a problem with an one of the BC manufactures continueint to produce after the contract ended. Supposedly, Leisurepro had some of those BCs which caused some interesting anti-LP PR for a while.
One of the claims made due to CBS's investigation was that as soon as a foreign manufacturer sets up in China and teaches the locals how to make a specific product, someone from the factory will show a relative how to copy the product for offsite production. Another part of this question would be related to which countries scuba gear is actually manufacturered in. Maybe something like a regulator would be a little more difficult to copy because of the amount of sophisticated machining than a BC, some of which are already produced in third world Asian countries.

[cool_hardware52]

One of the claims made due to CBS's investigation was that as soon as a foreign manufacturer sets up in China and teaches the locals how to make a specific product, someone from the factory will show a relative how to copy the product for offsite production. Another part of this question would be related to which countries scuba gear is actually manufacturered in. Maybe something like a regulator would be a little more difficult to copy because of the amount of sophisticated machining than a BC, some of which are already produced in third world Asian countries.


Don't kid yourself about "sophisticated machining" preventing China from producing it. China has very highly developed machining capabilities, anywhere they can build complicated injection molds they can easily build any scuba gear.

The problem with counterfeiting is profound. Once a US company establishes manufacturing in china the injection molds, the CAD drawings, the fixtures etc are in china, usually in contract manufacturing plants that that are not under the control of the US companies.

Many of these contract manufacturing facilities are making "real" parts for the US companies first shift and making "counterfeit" parts for other private label users 2nd and 3rd shift so to speak.

Often there is no real difference between the two, same molds, same patterns etc., maybe a logo insert is changed in the molds.

China basically has no intellectual property rights laws.

I am involved in the injection molding industry. Another trend is the use of the same mold "2nd shift" but a cheaper resin.

One defense that US companies have been forced to use is the inclusion of "micro tags" in the approved and specified resins. These tiny tags have a specific series of colored bands unique to a particular resin or Company or part. The tags are mixed into the resin. Examination under a microscope can tell if the part was made using the resin specified.

The effects of "outsourcing" are profound. Companies loose control of their intellectual property rights, QC, Gray market, and become dependent on a long, and "twisty" supply chain.

Anything sold in high volume is a target for the knock off artists, that's why I build "tech" gear:D


Regards,




Tobin

[yknot]

Don't kid yourself about "sophisticated machining" preventing China from producing it. China has very highly developed machining capabilities, anywhere they can build complicated injection molds they can easily build any scuba gear.

The problem with counterfeiting is profound. Once a US company establishes manufacturing in china the injection molds, the CAD drawings, the fixtures etc are in china, usually in contract manufacturing plants that that are not under the control of the US companies.

Many of these contract manufacturing facilities are making "real" parts for the US companies first shift and making "counterfeit" parts for other private label users 2nd and 3rd shift so to speak.

Often there is no real difference between the two, same molds, same patterns etc., maybe a logo insert is changed in the molds.

China basically has no intellectual property rights laws.

I am involved in the injection molding industry. Another trend is the use of the same mold "2nd shift" but a cheaper resin.

One defense that US companies have been forced to use is the inclusion of "micro tags" in the approved and specified resins. These tiny tags have a specific series of colored bands unique to a particular resin or Company or part. The tags are mixed into the resin. Examination under a microscope can tell if the part was made using the resin specified.

The effects of "outsourcing" are profound. Companies loose control of their intellectual property rights, QC, Gray market, and become dependent on a long, and "twisty" supply chain.

Anything sold in high volume is a target for the knock off artists, that's why I build "tech" gear:D


Regards,




Tobin
First, while I am aware of the increasing ability of the Chinese to duplicate a complex process or produce to a given manufacturers' specs, this wasn't my point. Third shift/private label manufacturing, in effect, may be a patent infringment but isn't really counterfeiting for sake of my original question. If they are trully capable of producing first world quality on their own then they would be direct marketing to us, like Triple-L, whatever they could. I'm asking if anyone has specifically encountered a counterfeit piece of gear. Most of the counterfeit stuff coming from China is fairly lowtech stuff-purses, shoes, designer label clothing, etc. Has anyone seen something more complex, like a regulator, with a major brand label?

[ShakaZulu]

Welcome to the world of "Off-Shoring", we will pay the price eventually..............

[cool_hardware52]

First, while I am aware of the increasing ability of the Chinese to duplicate a complex process or produce to a given manufacturers' specs, this wasn't my point. Third shift/private label manufacturing, in effect, may be a patent infringment but isn't really counterfeiting for sake of my original question. If they are trully capable of producing first world quality on their own then they would be direct marketing to us, like Triple-L, whatever they could. I'm asking if anyone has specifically encountered a counterfeit piece of gear. Most of the counterfeit stuff coming from China is fairly lowtech stuff-purses, shoes, designer label clothing, etc. Has anyone seen something more complex, like a regulator, with a major brand label?

Knot,

I think I understand your point now. I haven't that I know of.

Tobin

[Seabear70]

First, while I am aware of the increasing ability of the Chinese to duplicate a complex process or produce to a given manufacturers' specs, this wasn't my point. Third shift/private label manufacturing, in effect, may be a patent infringment but isn't really counterfeiting for sake of my original question. If they are trully capable of producing first world quality on their own then they would be direct marketing to us, like Triple-L, whatever they could. I'm asking if anyone has specifically encountered a counterfeit piece of gear. Most of the counterfeit stuff coming from China is fairly lowtech stuff-purses, shoes, designer label clothing, etc. Has anyone seen something more complex, like a regulator, with a major brand label?

There was a case of the Superlight-17 being manufactured in china and being sold for very low cost here in the states. It was virtually identival, except that a few common fittings were not interchangable.

The problem, was that they were particularly vulnerable to hydrogen pops, and at least one was found to have completely split during a pop leaving the diver unconsious and without any breathing apparatus...

I'll take original, thank you.

[norcaldiver]

Heard the rumor, but have never seen one...except for my $5 Rolex from Tijuana.

[yknot]

Heard the rumor, but have never seen one...except for my $5 Rolex from Tijuana.
I bet you knew the watch was a knockoff when you bought it and at $5 is actually a real good bargain, ethics aside.

And to ShakaZulu-It's precisely because so many of my corporate customers choose to send jobs, specifically like mine, to the cheapest third world source that I need to be very cost conscience myself.

[crpntr133]

Since I am new to diving I haven't experienced this first hand but I do know of a couple times this has passed through the LDS. Once was with a dive computer, it had no serial number and was figured as a knock off. The second time was a BC. The LDS called the manufacturer for parts and they then told him that is was a knock off and that the owner had no warranty. By the way one was purchased from E-bay and the other... you guessed it, Leisure Pro.

No the BC was not one that was mentioned above.

[yknot]

Since I am new to diving I haven't experienced this first hand but I do know of a couple times this has passed through the LDS. Once was with a dive computer, it had no serial number and was figured as a knock off. The second time was a BC. The LDS called the manufacturer for parts and they then told him that is was a knock off and that the owner had no warranty. By the way one was purchased from E-bay and the other... you guessed it, Leisure Pro.

No the BC was not one that was mentioned above.

Unfortunately, this is exactly the kind of anecdotal examples I want to avoid. There have been a number of past posts, usually in regards to LP, that concern counterfeit gear, but never a specific verifiable example. I would think that ScubaPro and Aqualung, just as two of the bigger manufacturers, would love to be able to send the authorities to LP for a search and seizure as they both claim to abhor LP and their discount "gray market" ways. Since it hasn't happened, I would have to believe it is because they (LP) aren't selling counterfeit gear. No need to-they seem to be able to get a good supply of legitimate products. Based on what I saw on 60 Minutes, eventually some counterfeit gear is going to find it's way here but if no one is actually manufacturing complicated gear like regulators in China than it's going to take some doing.

[miketsp]

My wife has used a cheap Taiwanese reg, cost less than US$100.00. It's been in regular use for about 3 years, serviced once, coming up to next service now.
It's performance is better than many US$300.00+ regs I've tried.
You could choose the brand name you wanted to put on it.
The LDS that sold it to me assured me that the same internals are used in other top end regs. The manufacturer is an OEM for some leading brands. He just puts a cheaper housing around them so he can't be charged royalties.