Tobermory - Diving Fatality

[DacDives3]

Does anyone have info on the accident in Tobermory Ont. today? (28/08/04)

[scuba_chick55]

This post is going to get moved to Accidents but hi.

[Scott Riemer]

Welcome to Scubaboard!

I've contacted a moderator to have this thread moved to the Accidents and Incidents Forum (http://www.scubaboard.com/f286-accidents-and-incidents.html) where you are more likely to find info. you're looking for.

[baitedstorm]

Please feel welcomed to the Board! Your thread will be moved only to better place it in a section in which you are more likely to get the answer your searching for.

Best wishes,
Vickie

[JJ1]

Actualy I highly doubt there will be more info for this thread anywhere but where it is....... Remember - We're in Canada - the lost barren north of the 41st (41.41'17)

Anyone know what emergency services attended the scene? I might be able to dig up some info through those channels.

[DacDives3]

Actualy I highly doubt there will be more info for this thread anywhere but where it is....... Remember - We're in Canada - the lost barren north of the 41st (41.41'17)

Anyone know what emergency services attended the scene? I might be able to dig up some info through those channels.


Hey There,
Yes I forgot where we are...Local EMS, O.P.P.,R.C.M.P. possibly the Coast Guard likely resopnded. I only heard a brief bit on our local 6 o'clock news last night.

[DacDives3]

Hi Thanks...

[Scott Riemer]

Actualy I highly doubt there will be more info for this thread anywhere but where it is....... Remember - We're in Canada - the lost barren north of the 41st (41.41'17)

Anyone know what emergency services attended the scene? I might be able to dig up some info through those channels.
Sorry for the confusion. What my post was referring to was when this thread was initially posted in the Introduction Forum. I did suggest it be moved to the Accidents and Incidents forum. But, you're right, it's probably best placed here.

[estrojenn]

we just got back from tobermory this afternoon. this morning about 8:30am we heard from some divers outside of divers den that a guy had died on the Arabia yesterday. these divers were suppose to do the Arabia this morning at 9am and thought the water conditions were too choppy, and im assuming were a bit freaked that someone had died the previous night.

as an aside, i was somewhat taken aback when the woman at divers den (who i have had great experiences with in the past) basically said to the guy 'the conditions are fine. you are getting on that boat'. he was a very experienced diver and said 'im not comfortable doing that dive in these conditions'. she said 'sorry, the charter is booked and you are on it' in a horribly rude way. he was like 'well. i just cancelled the charter'. she told him to **** off?!? he was TOTALLY not being rude at all. she was horrible to him.

since when does a dive shop tell a diver who isnt comfortable with the conditions that he has to dive? we drove around to lighthouse point and it was really choppy.

anyway. i was not impressed. sorry i dont have more info about the fatality. i couldnt find anything on the news, or from the locals in Toby either.

[Scuba_Steve]

Not to take another shot at Toby and the shops up there, but there's more than enough reasons for me to never go back there, and the above is but one. I'd much prefer Kingston, Brockville.....heck, just about anywhere but there.

Diving capital my a$$.

Regards.

[DI_Guy]

Dacdives...

This was posted in the "accidents & incidents" forum by a SB member "vhs". It answers your question. Its very sad..

Quote: There was a fatality on August 28, 2004 on the Arabia. The diver was 53 years old and at the cement block at the time of the incident. The autospy will be performed Monday. It appears he had a heart attack. Unfortuantely, there was nothing anyone could have done differently. Everyone involved followed their training and worked as a team. The gentleman was part of the Michigan Seasnoopers Dive Club and he will be greatly missed.

[estrojenn]

see, this was the first negative i have experience in Toby. we've only been a few times, but we did our advanced cert through divers den a couple of years ago and they were nothing short of fantastic. same with our dives on saturday. but holy crap, sunday morning was enough to cancel out the positives and make me never want to go back!

[DiveMistress2]

Not to take another shot at Toby and the shops up there, but there's more than enough reasons for me to never go back there, and the above is but one. I'd much prefer Kingston, Brockville.....heck, just about anywhere but there.

Diving capital my a$$.

Regards.

I'm with ya on this one buddy old pal,

Kingston & Brockville put Toby to shame.

The warmer water, great vis, and of course the great dive shops and charter operators.....

(I hope they know I'm coming up this weekend and I'll be looking for payment....hahaha)

This is the third underwater heart attack I've heard of this year. If the water was choppy why didn't the man call the dive at the surface. It would have been the right thing to do and nobody would have thought any less of him.

This is another sad occurrence.

[DacDives3]

we just got back from tobermory this afternoon. this morning about 8:30am we heard from some divers outside of divers den that a guy had died on the Arabia yesterday. these divers were suppose to do the Arabia this morning at 9am and thought the water conditions were too choppy, and im assuming were a bit freaked that someone had died the previous night.

as an aside, i was somewhat taken aback when the woman at divers den (who i have had great experiences with in the past) basically said to the guy 'the conditions are fine. you are getting on that boat'. he was a very experienced diver and said 'im not comfortable doing that dive in these conditions'. she said 'sorry, the charter is booked and you are on it' in a horribly rude way. he was like 'well. i just cancelled the charter'. she told him to **** off?!? he was TOTALLY not being rude at all. she was horrible to him.

since when does a dive shop tell a diver who isnt comfortable with the conditions that he has to dive? we drove around to lighthouse point and it was really choppy.

anyway. i was not impressed. sorry i dont have more info about the fatality. i couldnt find anything on the news, or from the locals in Toby either.



Thank You for the update Estrojenn,
Sorry to hear about the way the other divers were treated.
Nobody has the right to tell a diver that they have to dive...If your not comfortable with a dive or conditions call the dive...no questions asked...That was Very unsafe and unprofessional
I guess that's what happens when safety is pushed aside for the almighty dollar...

[DacDives3]

Dacdives...

This was posted in the "accidents & incidents" forum by a SB member "vhs". It answers your question. Its very sad..

Quote: There was a fatality on August 28, 2004 on the Arabia. The diver was 53 years old and at the cement block at the time of the incident. The autospy will be performed Monday. It appears he had a heart attack. Unfortuantely, there was nothing anyone could have done differently. Everyone involved followed their training and worked as a team. The gentleman was part of the Michigan Seasnoopers Dive Club and he will be greatly missed.

Thanks for the info...

[Warren_L]

I dove the Arabia through Diver's Den on Friday August 27th, the day before the incident. Conditions were a little choppy going out, nothing too bad though. Viz was about 25' or so, so not the best, and water temps were in the mid-low 40s. We were on the Deep Obsession with Capt. Gary .... I've nothing but good things to say about the whole experience. I find it surprising that DD would treat any of their customers that way....

[estrojenn]

I'm with ya on this one buddy old pal,

Kingston & Brockville put Toby to shame.

The warmer water, great vis, and of course the great dive shops and charter operators.....

(I hope they know I'm coming up this weekend and I'll be looking for payment....hahaha)

This is the third underwater heart attack I've heard of this year. If the water was choppy why didn't the man call the dive at the surface. It would have been the right thing to do and nobody would have thought any less of him.

This is another sad occurrence.

the conditions were great on Saturday. not choppy as they were on sunday. my point was that a diver wanted to cancel his dive on the arabia on sunday (following the tragedy) and the dive shop basically said 'no'.

[estrojenn]

I dove the Arabia through Diver's Den on Friday August 27th, the day before the incident. Conditions were a little choppy going out, nothing too bad though. Viz was about 25' or so, so not the best, and water temps were in the mid-low 40s. We were on the Deep Obsession with Capt. Gary .... I've nothing but good things to say about the whole experience. I find it surprising that DD would treat any of their customers that way....

We dove with Capt. Gary on Saturday and as I said, it was fantastic. It was the woman in the dive shop that was horrible. I'm writing them a letter today though...as I'm sure the diver who was treated badly will as well.

[diverbrian]

We insist on Gary Coulter and the Deep Obsession when we do our annual trip. Having spoken with Gary, if he is very protective of divers specifically on the Arabia and the Forest City. If a customer was nervous about it, I can't see him letting the customer off the boat. His phrase to me was that he has never had a fatality off of one of his boats and he doesn't plan to start now.

Actually if you read other threads on the board, the dive operation has the right to go or not go. If they decide to go and somebody doesn't feel comfortable with it, then the individual will likely sacrifice the deposit or charter fees that they already paid in the interests of safety. And if DD had advertised the Arabia and only one diver wasn't comfortable with it, then the rest of the divers would have likely not been happy. That is fairly standard policy in the business.

This is another case of seeing one version of the story. It would be a little more fair to see both sides of the story before tuning up flamethrowers.

[Scuba_Steve]

the conditions were great on Saturday. not choppy as they were on sunday. my point was that a diver wanted to cancel his dive on the arabia on sunday (following the tragedy) and the dive shop basically said 'no'.

I'm assuming the "No" was, 'no' you're not getting your money back, but whether you dive or not is your decision. In that, I must say I agree with the dive shop. Cancelling the day before has a cost involved. Of course, the idea should have put across in a kinder way, evidently.

Steve

[Warren_L]

We dove with Capt. Gary on Saturday and as I said, it was fantastic. It was the woman in the dive shop that was horrible. I'm writing them a letter today though...as I'm sure the diver who was treated badly will as well.
I figured it was not Gary - he was just fantastic and seemed to be very meticulous about the upkeep of the boat and safety issues. Exactly what you want. I guess sometimes the shop personnel are not exactly as customer service oriented or understanding perhaps.

[estrojenn]

but telling a customer to f*ck off for no reason?? i was standing right there. the guy was being very reasonable and the woman at the counter *yelled* at him that the conditions were fine and that he was doing the dive. money wasnt even mentioned and when the guy said 'fine, i'll cancel the whole thing then' she *yelled* f*ck off! it was absolutly ridiculous.

both sides of the story are being presented. and the counter-person at DD was completely out of line.


We insist on Gary Coulter and the Deep Obsession when we do our annual trip. Having spoken with Gary, if he is very protective of divers specifically on the Arabia and the Forest City. If a customer was nervous about it, I can't see him letting the customer off the boat. His phrase to me was that he has never had a fatality off of one of his boats and he doesn't plan to start now.

Actually if you read other threads on the board, the dive operation has the right to go or not go. If they decide to go and somebody doesn't feel comfortable with it, then the individual will likely sacrifice the deposit or charter fees that they already paid in the interests of safety. And if DD had advertised the Arabia and only one diver wasn't comfortable with it, then the rest of the divers would have likely not been happy. That is fairly standard policy in the business.

This is another case of seeing one version of the story. It would be a little more fair to see both sides of the story before tuning up flamethrowers.

[diverbrian]

but telling a customer to f*ck off for no reason?? i was standing right there. the guy was being very reasonable and the woman at the counter *yelled* at him that the conditions were fine and that he was doing the dive. money wasnt even mentioned and when the guy said 'fine, i'll cancel the whole thing then' she *yelled* f*ck off! it was absolutly ridiculous.

both sides of the story are being presented. and the counter-person at DD was completely out of line.
To be honest, I was saying that what a person sees standing in line is many times different than the whole story. Having said that, it is terrible customer relations. I do agree with that. I am attempting to think of what it would take to set off Susan to do that (if it was Susan). If it was an employee, then I am sure that Susan will be *very* interested when the letter comes in and will deal with it.

[Lady Ashley]

I have used Divers Den many times during the last few years. I find it very hard to believe Sue or employees would addressing the diver that way.. BUt it could happen. However I think Asstrojen has missed some of the conversation . As far as Capt Gary goes .. he is the best up there , not to say the rest aren't . We were diving the Niagara II that morning and heard it on the VHF radio. The water conditions were not that bad at all ( 1-2 ft swells.) Yes I know there is a current on the Arabia and I also know that ALL the Capt,s tell you that on the pre-dive adviseory.
As far as all the heart attacks because of the currents .. well there has been 2 heart attacks this year up there. The one we are talking about and another one in May or early June . This took place at the "anchor" close to shore, NOT a boat dive no current AND it was a Ontario store doing a check-out . How can we blame the stores in Tobermory about the physical condition of the divers they get up there. Unfortuneately I think there are a few people using this incident to bash and promote their own adjendas .

[pufferfish]

Does anyone have info on the accident in Tobermory Ont. today? (28/08/04)

This is the story we ran on August 30th - Monday.
[Bruce Peninsula][bbr]

Bruce Peninsula OPP have released more information into the death of a
Michigan man over the weekend.
OPP say 53 year old William Perry had been diving on the wreck of the Arabia
at Fathom Five National Marine Park, when he appeared to have difficulties
and went unconcious.
Perry was assisted to the surface and CPR was performed, however he was
pronounced dead by a doctor waiting on shore.Autopsy results indicate Perry
died as a result of a pre-existing medical condition.


- News Director
CKNX AM/FM Radio

[sparky30]

I have never been on the Arabia, but keep hearing about a current.. Just how much of a current is there?
Just curious.

[pufferfish]

I have never been on the Arabia, but keep hearing about a current.. Just how much of a current is there?
Just curious.

Nothing like your Niagara River or Brockville current. The few times I have been out there the current was non existent but I imagine these things are seasonal.

[Scuba_Steve]

I have never been on the Arabia, but keep hearing about a current.. Just how much of a current is there?
Just curious.

I have been on it when you definately noticed the current when swimming against it. The same dive had very poor vis to boot. That dive wasn't much fun.

Then again, I've been there with zero current and pretty decent vis. Fortunately I had my video cam that day too.

Unfortunately, I can't shoot video worth a hoot most days.

[sparky30]

I have been on it when you definately noticed the current when swimming against it. The same dive had very poor vis to boot. That dive wasn't much fun.

Then again, I've been there with zero current and pretty decent vis. Fortunately I had my video cam that day too.

Unfortunately, I can't shoot video worth a hoot most days.
Cool.. When someone mentions current, I usually assiciate "Niagara River" current with that word.. So this might be a fun dive after all.. I can stop and look around when I want to :)
Haven't had the camere out underwater lately.. I wanted to shoot the Tiller and really put my strobe to good use..(It wasn't really needed down south) I just haven'yt got around to it yet.. Maybe I'll move up to video in a few years.. Still trying to figure out the stuff that doesn't move.

[Warren_L]

Cool.. When someone mentions current, I usually assiciate "Niagara River" current with that word.. So this might be a fun dive after all.. I can stop and look around when I want to :)
Haven't had the camere out underwater lately.. I wanted to shoot the Tiller and really put my strobe to good use..(It wasn't really needed down south) I just haven'yt got around to it yet.. Maybe I'll move up to video in a few years.. Still trying to figure out the stuff that doesn't move.
I was on the Arabia the Friday before all this happened and there was a very mild current. Perhaps it may have changed the next day - I don't know exactly how it works. But having done drift diving in Cozumel and the currents in Brockville (the Daryaw comes to mind), it was nothing even close to that.

[cottage]

I have never been on the Arabia, but keep hearing about a current.. Just how much of a current is there?
Just curious.

Fascinating thread????

I think that the issue is getting a bit distorted.

I have been diving for 35 years, have over 2000 dives and have lost count of the number of dives on the Arabia. Yes. There is ocassionally a current on the Arabia. I'd guess that I have experienced a current on 1 in 20 dives and almost all of those currents were VERY mild. By Brockville standards, you be a major wimp even to call the Arabia current "a current".

There may indeed be a few incidents in Tobermory but they have excellent facilities to deal with any eventuality. Fathom Five can respond very quicky with a fast evacuation boat. The local medical centre has a hyperbaric chamber and they have one of the leading hyperbaric doctors in Canada. What other location can boast about these facilites?

Come on guys (and Gals). Incidents happen. People have bad days. Let's not get carried away!

[d33ps1x]

Are people getting carried away?

There have been a lot of deaths on the Arabia but that, much like the Marsh in Kingston, is mostly because it is a very popular wreck that entices people who shouldn't be in 110 feet of lakewater to go visit her. We often forget that diving up here most days is considered extreme diving elsewhere in the world. It's dark, it's cold, and the gear considerations make it doubly hard. Throw in a low vis day with the narcosis of 110 feet, a single 80 cylinder with a crap fill, and a not so experienced diver and you have a very potent recipe for disaster time and again. It's no wonder so many people die on the thing.

People talk about having advanced certification. Big deal. At least one agency we all know of will allow a diver to immediately after completing your 4 open water dives do your 5 "advanced" dives right away. So now you have a diver with a grand total of 11 dives (only 1 below 60 feet) able to do the Arabia and other wrecks in that range. That is ill equipped. It takes time to develop the problem solving and gas management abilities needed to handle an issue at this depth. That's it. You just need time in the water that a lot of people don't have before going there.

Advanced certification is an ill concieved cash grab that is fed buy a dive shop and charter industry that enjoys the $250 or so plus fills plus equipment rentals plus charters to take you on 5 guided dives over two days with little or no in class time spent. It's probably the only course that shops make a clear cut GOOD profit on and it does nothing for the diver except allow them to step onto a boat and do an "advanced" dive that they probably shouldn't be doing. The arguement is that it is guided time in the water doing things you normally wouldn't do on your own for experience. True. But if you think you are at your safest and about to become an advanced diver by being jammed in the water with 5 or 6 other students and 1 instructor and 1 dm at 100 feet for one dive you are kidding yourself. It leaves you completely lacking to do a wreck in the 110 foot range.

The remainder of those deaths are as someone mentioned earlier,"old guy issues", due to health pre-conditions or poor health in general. Luckily the majority of deaths in the water seem to be due to poor health according to DAN reports. I mean luckily because it is not a diving related issue per say. The same things arguably could have happened playing hockey or some other sport. However, the sooner training agencies stop pushing the idea that diving is NOT a sport and doesn't require good health and fitness the sooner we will stop seeing so many deaths like heart attacks while diving.

I'm not talking about simply overweight. I am talking about healthy. There IS a difference. Big people can have the heart, lungs and muscle to handle a situation that a rake thin dude may not because he has a low cardio tolerance, precondition , etc. Everything is hunky dory until there IS a current or something and then these poor folks little couch potato hearts pop like a champagne cork after the championship game.

At the end of the day it is really up to the diver if they can and should do the dive. Let's face it. A lot of people get into diving because they consider it an extreme sport and WANT to push their boundaries and take risks. Others prefer getting all the training they can to offset the risk factors. The first group have just as much right and just as valid a reason as the second and as long as their attitude and outlook don't endanger the latter half then what is the big deal. They pay their insurance and taxes too. I personally like the training and have attempted to prepare myself as best I can physically, skillwise, knowledgewise and equipmentwise. Thats it really. I'm just not a risk taker and I picture myself dying an angry little (dirty) old man some far away day.

Just one vocal opinion. Others may and will vary.

[Groundhog246]

Short of requiring al divers to have an annual physical, including stress testing and preventing those who have any heart or other issues from diving, there's no way to prevent such deaths. I think they do something like that for pilots (may not be yearly) and even then there have been pilots have a heart attack, etc while flying causing their own and others deaths. We accept such risks when we undertake such activities.
To suggest or even hint that a death from a pre-existing medical condition might be the fault of a shop or charter operator is wrong.

[FreeFloat]

To suggest or even hint that a death from a pre-existing medical condition might be the fault of a shop or charter operator is wrong.
I don't think that's what he was suggesting at all. I think he was trying to say that divers ought to be self-policing as far as fitness to dive. Unfortunately, the dive industry as a whole is, IMHO, to blame, for presenting diving as a cheap safe thrill for the masses.

[d33ps1x]

Thanks freefloat. Groundhog. Here is the short version for you since I can get a little long winded at times:

No one has a gun to your head. Do the dive if you want just don't endanger others in the process. Fullstop.

[CDN ff]

Interesting discussion... I'll skip the fitness portion of the discussion- we discuss it ad nauseum at work: heart attacks kill more firefighters than fires, but you just can't make a guy go to the gym. Those of us that are fit (and thankfully, there are more and more every day), are fit out of choice, not because of mandated fit-testing.
As to the other part, let me throw in a hypothetical question for further fuel:
Ask most newly-certified AOW divers this question: if you have your choice between two IDENTICAL dive sites (i.e. wrecks), one in 45 feet of water, one in 100 feet of water, on which one would you prefer to dive?
7 out of 10 seem to go for the deep dive. If you ask them their reason, they don't really have one. If you point out to them that they will get twice as much bottom time to tour the shallower wreck, they look confused.

I think that points to what d33p was saying about adventure sports approaches. Yes, there is a thrill to diving. But it shouldn't be the thrill of risking your life. The thrill of conquering a new sport, a new skill... the thrill of accessing a new medium that was previously unavailable... even the thrill of going someplace that you know very few people have ever been. THOSE are good reasons....

[Groundhog246]

FWIW d33ps1x, I must have been typing while you were and I was not responding to your post, in fact I agree with what you're saying. I DON'T want more government involvment. And I do my best to make sure I am fit to dive (having reached an age, I had a full physical this spring). I do my best to make sure both my buddy and I survive. A heart attack, even fairly major might be survivable sitting at home, or on the dock, less survivable an hour out in the lake (travel time while non-professionals provide CPR), NOT survivable at depth. Of course, it's likely not survivable at 110kmh on the 401 either.
If anyone with a health condition either doesn't know about it, or doesn't reveal it, it's no one else's fault. Unfortunately, it's still a "diving death" and gives people the impression that it's a dangerous sport. The fact that more people die bowling (again, usually a heart attack) than diving is completely lost on them. One should not blame the bowling alley, the LDS or the charter boat.

[Groundhog246]

Ask most certified AOW divers this question: if you have your choice between two IDENTICAL dive sites (i.e. wrecks), one in 45 feet of water, one in 100 feet of water, on which one would you prefer to dive?
7 out of 10 seem to go for the deep dive.
Glad I'm one of the 3. :10: Although I still want to dive the Tiller wreck. :11:

[JJ1]

I'm just not a risk taker and I picture myself dying an angry little (dirty) old man some far away day.



No one has a gun to your head. Do the dive if you want just don't endanger others in the process. Fullstop.


At least we can agree on some things :crafty:

[starfish365]

Lets not forget that a heartattack can be had without prior knowledge or symptoms of a condition. Lets face it - how many people actually have a yearly exam which includes full stress testing, etc., which would indicate a heart condition. Not many. Even if there are symtoms most people put it off as something else. It's human nature. Unless that pain is severe we ignore it or pop a pill to make it go away.

Anyone can have a sudden attack no matter what physical condition they're in or what sport they are involved in, but as was mentioned it's unlikely to be survivable under certain conditions outside the normal sitting at home. Even then you could still die.

Without actually personally knowing the gentleman that passed away, I can see no reason to speculate as to whether he knew of his condition or not. It's not right to guess as to whether he was a thrill seeker, phyically fit, or whatever. I think it's rather cruel in fact to do so. There's possibly no one to blame in this matter at all. It could happen to anyone.

All one can hope for is to die at peace - hopefully not while diving but certainly enjoying life.

I hope it never happens to someone I know - or that I've heard of on this board. Keep safe everyone!

[d33ps1x]

Starfish,

My comments were not aimed at the guy who died of the ulcer at depth.

They were in response to remarks made along the lines that the Arabia is a breeze to dive but thank you for your kind assumptions as to my motives and the level of "cruelty" which I possess.

Not one of my statements were aimed at the gentleman who recently died nor am I the person who originally brought this discussion off topic although posting an accident is generally for the purpose of discussion and analysis no matter how amateurish and cruel you may regard it.

If you feel uncomfortable involving yourself in the said discussion please feel free to remove yourself.

Thanks.

[Rooster1]

People talk about having advanced certification. Big deal. At least one agency we all know of will allow a diver to immediately after completing your 4 open water dives do your 5 "advanced" dives right away. So now you have a diver with a grand total of 11 dives (only 1 below 60 feet) able to do the Arabia and other wrecks in that range. That is ill equipped. It takes time to develop the problem solving and gas management abilities needed to handle an issue at this depth. That's it. You just need time in the water that a lot of people don't have before going there.




Amen to that! I know of at least 2 divers personally that were given "advanced" open water dives right after their open water dives. I personally think this sort of practice is foolish.

[Groundhog246]

I also meant no disrespect to the diver who just died on the Arabia nor any other diver. Nor have I or would I ever say diving the Arabia is a breeze, in fact I haven't dove it yet myself, because I know it's not an easy dive. I don't see where anyone said it was, just some comments that the current is not as stiff as the St. Lawrence or Niagara rivers. I do know that the diver who died while on training dives earlier this year did know he had a medical condition, but did not "share" that knowledge with the LDS or his instructors. As well there was an MD with a a known heart condition who died on a wreck in Brockville last summer.

d33ps1x, an ulcer? Where'd you find that? Not doubting, just curious, I wouldn't have thought an ulcer would contraindicate diving, I'll have to go visit DAN. Everything I've read speculated a heart attack or stated "pre-existing condition". Too bad the press is never as quick to publish the follow up details (the truth) as they are the to splash the death and speculation across the pages.

[d33ps1x]

d33ps1x, an ulcer? Where'd you find that? Not doubting, just curious, I wouldn't have thought an ulcer would contraindicate diving, I'll have to go visit DAN. Everything I've read speculated a heart attack or stated "pre-existing condition". Too bad the press is never as quick to publish the follow up details (the truth) as they are the to splash the death and speculation across the pages.


I believe you can find the information (or heresay) in the accidents and incidents section.

The post in specific:

http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=752246&postcount=7

The thread as a whole:

http://www.scubaboard.com/t70010-tobermory-fatality.html

[Twister]

Are people getting carried away?

There have been a lot of deaths on the Arabia but that, much like the Marsh in Kingston, is mostly because it is a very popular wreck that entices people who shouldn't be in 110 feet of lakewater to go visit her. We often forget that diving up here most days is considered extreme diving elsewhere in the world. It's dark, it's cold, and the gear considerations make it doubly hard. Throw in a low vis day with the narcosis of 110 feet, a single 80 cylinder with a crap fill, and a not so experienced diver and you have a very potent recipe for disaster time and again. It's no wonder so many people die on the thing.

People talk about having advanced certification. Big deal. At least one agency we all know of will allow a diver to immediately after completing your 4 open water dives do your 5 "advanced" dives right away. So now you have a diver with a grand total of 11 dives (only 1 below 60 feet) able to do the Arabia and other wrecks in that range. That is ill equipped. It takes time to develop the problem solving and gas management abilities needed to handle an issue at this depth. That's it. You just need time in the water that a lot of people don't have before going there.

Advanced certification is an ill concieved cash grab that is fed buy a dive shop and charter industry that enjoys the $250 or so plus fills plus equipment rentals plus charters to take you on 5 guided dives over two days with little or no in class time spent. It's probably the only course that shops make a clear cut GOOD profit on and it does nothing for the diver except allow them to step onto a boat and do an "advanced" dive that they probably shouldn't be doing. The arguement is that it is guided time in the water doing things you normally wouldn't do on your own for experience. True. But if you think you are at your safest and about to become an advanced diver by being jammed in the water with 5 or 6 other students and 1 instructor and 1 dm at 100 feet for one dive you are kidding yourself. It leaves you completely lacking to do a wreck in the 110 foot range.

The remainder of those deaths are as someone mentioned earlier,"old guy issues", due to health pre-conditions or poor health in general. Luckily the majority of deaths in the water seem to be due to poor health according to DAN reports. I mean luckily because it is not a diving related issue per say. The same things arguably could have happened playing hockey or some other sport. However, the sooner training agencies stop pushing the idea that diving is NOT a sport and doesn't require good health and fitness the sooner we will stop seeing so many deaths like heart attacks while diving.

I'm not talking about simply overweight. I am talking about healthy. There IS a difference. Big people can have the heart, lungs and muscle to handle a situation that a rake thin dude may not because he has a low cardio tolerance, precondition , etc. Everything is hunky dory until there IS a current or something and then these poor folks little couch potato hearts pop like a champagne cork after the championship game.

At the end of the day it is really up to the diver if they can and should do the dive. Let's face it. A lot of people get into diving because they consider it an extreme sport and WANT to push their boundaries and take risks. Others prefer getting all the training they can to offset the risk factors. The first group have just as much right and just as valid a reason as the second and as long as their attitude and outlook don't endanger the latter half then what is the big deal. They pay their insurance and taxes too. I personally like the training and have attempted to prepare myself as best I can physically, skillwise, knowledgewise and equipmentwise. Thats it really. I'm just not a risk taker and I picture myself dying an angry little (dirty) old man some far away day.

Just one vocal opinion. Others may and will vary.


Whow!!
Without taking a 3rd. breath
( I coudn't have read it all on a 2nd. )
Well place opinion! Put Another Buck In
Oops did I spell PADI wrong?

[rjchandler]

Amen to that! I know of at least 2 divers personally that were given "advanced" open water dives right after their open water dives. I personally think this sort of practice is foolish.

I think this is the way it should be done. Most of the AOW "skills" (except maybe fish ID) shoold be part of the basic course. It should be up to the diver to then use some common sense when he sets out on his own.

[d33ps1x]

No one would disagree with you there Joe but the issue is that if you tack on 2 or 3 more days of diving and another 250 plus charters to an OW course your average student won't take the course. They will go to the guy next door that will do it for $199 or in the case of a shop I saw up at the Morrison $159 I think it says on the side of their truck.

The uneducated consumer is as much to blame for the poor state of affairs in the scuba industry as the shops are. Could you imagine Universities competing by slashing educational prices in bids to capture the greater student market share?

The average consumer wants it cheap, they want it easy and they want to expend as little effort as possible doing so. The dive industry gladly cater to that wish with the current OW offerings that are popular out there. If they don't then the next shop will.

The coin has two sides so to speak. The quote another common cliche that is so very true: There is nothing common about common sense.

[jazscam]

I am one of those divers who took their advanced course very soon after my open water, very soon in experience not time. I did my open water then six various dives and then took my advanced.

From one of d33ps1x posts, I am one of those risktakers that like pushing themselves. This is not just in SCUBA but skydiving, skiing, climbing you can see the pattern.

However; the reason I took the advanced course was not for the "complete knowledge" of deep dives cramed into one dive. It was to get a taste for what I like, points to improve form an experienced professional and a little more knowledge of my limitation as an up and coming diver.

As far as I'm concerned the current and night dives are the most fun. But I'm not going to rush out, buy a walmart dive light and go for my first solo deep night wreck dive just because I did it on the advanced course. There is always someone who will dive beyond their limits, but I think that has nothing to do with being an advanced course graduate.

But that's just my two cents.

[d33ps1x]

Nor is the advanced certification some badge of honour and entry into the fraternity of skilled divers. It's one dive in each of 5 diciplines.

It's also a very expensive way to gain the little experience that you get. I think taking a GUE Fundamentals course for actually quite a bit less after you factor in the charters needed for most advanced dives is a far better value for the money and an excellent next step for any OW diver. But that is also dreaming of an ideal world for me. :D

[Scuba_Steve]

Is this the lead-in for the upcoming DIRf course I'm in the middle of setting up D33p?

Uhuh, yes I am, the Niagara Region's first. Lets hope we can find 6 divers out of hundreds that think like you and I do, bud.

Steve

[FreeFloat]

It's also a very expensive way to gain the little experience that you get.

Yeah that's what I pretty much thought. I have to admit I went into my AOW course with a bad attitude, sorta thinking all I could expect out of it was a card. I surprised myself by actually learning a few odd things...... (not necessarily intended lessons)

[starfish365]

Starfish,

My comments were not aimed at the guy who died of the ulcer at depth.

They were in response to remarks made along the lines that the Arabia is a breeze to dive but thank you for your kind assumptions as to my motives and the level of "cruelty" which I possess.

Not one of my statements were aimed at the gentleman who recently died nor am I the person who originally brought this discussion off topic although posting an accident is generally for the purpose of discussion and analysis no matter how amateurish and cruel you may regard it.

If you feel uncomfortable involving yourself in the said discussion please feel free to remove yourself.

Thanks.

hey dude wasn't aimed at you just a general thought incase someone was thinking about making such a post. I'm aware of the general disposition of the board and wouldn't think anyone would. It was just a comment....we are allowed those aren't we? Just checking....

[d33ps1x]

Is this the lead-in for the upcoming DIRf course I'm in the middle of setting up D33p?

Uhuh, yes I am, the Niagara Region's first. Lets hope we can find 6 divers out of hundreds that think like you and I do, bud.

Steve

I don't think you will have any trouble filling the roster.

[Scuba_Steve]

Now that we're talking about it............hehehe

The way I see it........albiet only in the last 4 days since it "officially" came out.

Top 3 reasons why folks don't want to take the course:

1.) Course is too much money

2.) Have to re-buy gear to the tune of hundreds of dollars

3.) Afraid of "failing" (Especially those that are considered "higher up" in the ranks)

All reasonable answers, for the individuals involved. (Well, maybe not the 3rd one. Being afraid/embarrased to "fail" is just silly) It smacks of too much personal pride, and is reason enough alone to do the course.

The way I figure it, I'm not going to get to be a better diver, quicker, by trying to do it on my own.

I require instruction and a good beating!

They are without a doubt the best teaching tools.

This isn't the first or the last "beating" I've taken this year (In terms of excellent courses).
I almost can't wait.

Steve

[divedude]

I don't think that's what he was suggesting at all. I think he was trying to say that divers ought to be self-policing as far as fitness to dive. Unfortunately, the dive industry as a whole is, IMHO, to blame, for presenting diving as a cheap safe thrill for the masses.

I hate to break it to you all but Diving is as a cheap safe thrill for the masses

You all act like it's a trip to the moon with a Mar's landing on the side............... Get over yourselves......... My son started diving when he was 8 years old. At 12 he was leading groups through the Wolfe cabins and engine room. All with out lines, doubles, hang tanks or pony bottles.

The plain truth is people die every day, it will happen to all of us.
People die driving cars.......... should we stop people from driving because they couldn't handle it.
People die riding bikes........... Ban all unfit people from biking
Get the picture folks.............

It's sad when people die, but don't get on your high horse and think your better trained because you had a better course, it just means the person selling you the course suckered you into thinking you were getting the "BEST" course.
After being in the dive industry for a number of years I have known people that have died doing what they loved and some of them had more skill under water than most of you will ever have.

Some day I may even die under water, anyone that has dove with me or know's me can say Big Jim's skill underwater suck, he's fat and out of shape.................... But I still dive and I love it and you can't stop me. It's still a cheap safe thrill for the masses. Except it's not cheap................

[starfish365]

It's sad when people die, but don't get on your high horse and think your better trained because you had a better course, it just means the person selling you the course suckered you into thinking you were getting the "BEST" course.
After being in the dive industry for a number of years I have known people that have died doing what they loved and some of them had more skill under water than most of you will ever have.

Some day I may even die under water, anyone that has dove with me or know's me can say Big Jim's skill underwater suck, he's fat and out of shape.................... But I still dive and I love it and you can't stop me. It's still a cheap safe thrill for the masses. Except it's not cheap................

Well that's pretty much how I feel about it....and tried to say...but you hit the nail right on. Thanks Jim.

[Scuba_Steve]

But isn't it OK for some of us to aspire to the finesse and perfection that others don't feel the need to achieve?

Sure, almost any dope can drop to 130 on the Munson (hehehehe, I'm sure you get it), flail around, and come up, and actually have a good time. (been there, done that).

No probs there personally, but is it OK if others try to perform better?

Absolutely nothing personal Big Jim, and maybe your son was more mature than some at 8 years, but I won't let my one child, who is 11 1/2 dive for a few more years yet. It's a personal matter for the parents, and our feeling is, even 12 isn't old enough to be making grown-up, rational descisions, if required.

What keeps most people safe is the (almost) infalibility of the gear, and a load of good fortune, sprinkled with short enough bottom times, to cover up their horrendous diving practices.

Yes I've seen your son dive, and yes he's pretty darn agile and quite at home in the water. I could tell that immediately.

Good luck with the boat, but I have to say, I hope to be one of your customers next year, again.

Steve (Freeflow Divers Niagara).

[Warren_L]

I hate to break it to you all but Diving is as a cheap safe thrill for the masses

You all act like it's a trip to the moon with a Mar's landing on the side............... Get over yourselves......... My son started diving when he was 8 years old. At 12 he was leading groups through the Wolfe cabins and engine room. All with out lines, doubles, hang tanks or pony bottles.

The plain truth is people die every day, it will happen to all of us.
People die driving cars.......... should we stop people from driving because they couldn't handle it.
People die riding bikes........... Ban all unfit people from biking
Get the picture folks.............

It's sad when people die, but don't get on your high horse and think your better trained because you had a better course, it just means the person selling you the course suckered you into thinking you were getting the "BEST" course.
After being in the dive industry for a number of years I have known people that have died doing what they loved and some of them had more skill under water than most of you will ever have.

Some day I may even die under water, anyone that has dove with me or know's me can say Big Jim's skill underwater suck, he's fat and out of shape.................... But I still dive and I love it and you can't stop me. It's still a cheap safe thrill for the masses. Except it's not cheap................
BigJim, I think you underestimate yourself. I've never dove with you, but you are one heck of a captain....

[FreeFloat]

BigJim, I think you underestimate yourself. I've never dove with you, but you are one heck of a captain....
He's not too shabby a diver either - he visited us at about 55' in that wingless tank setup of his..........

[Mr Adams]

Right on Warren

Since this is a divers death discussion, I wonder who the idiot instructor or charter operators are who have been letting single tank divers on air bounce dive the Jodrey, now there a death wish waiting to happen. The poorly Trained and Skilled recreational divers are becoming poorly skilled instructors, cave and technical divers.

Mr A

[FreeFloat]

I hate to break it to you all but Diving is as a cheap safe thrill for the masses

You all act like it's a trip to the moon with a Mar's landing on the side............... Get over yourselves.........

I'm not trying to say I or anyone else is necessarily a superior diver, by any means. Hey man, if you have your fun by diving with a garden hose with a rock tied to your waist, more power to you.

What I object to most, is that dive training by some agencies focuses exclusively on how much fun can be had without any effort needed by the student, and suggests that "anyone" can dive - it's (apparently) easier than falling off a log.

Skills? Why bother? We have new hi-tech equipment for that doncha know (think H.U.B., Air2). And there's all sorts of neat-o goodies on retractors to hang from your dozen stainless D rings. And no worries about buddies, this is the Me society so of course there's always a DM handy to hold your hand, and if you don't like it you can always sue.

Sheesh.

[d33ps1x]

I hate to break it to you all but Diving is as a cheap safe thrill for the masses

You all act like it's a trip to the moon with a Mar's landing on the side...Get over yourselves...

A prime example of training being a must would be the rediculous guided cave dives they do in Mexico all the time for open water divers. If your guide dies of natural causes back in the cave and you have been lollygagging along for the ride looking at the pretty decorations you might as well be on the Moon or Mars for that matter. You can probably kiss your a$$ goodbye in that nifty little aluminum 80 they strapped on you. Lots of fools leave their common sense hat at home when they sign up for these dives on a daily basis. The large death rates in those caves for untrained divers speaks volumes as to the importance of good training.

Like I said the training is to lessen the risks but there really are two types of divers and that's just fine with me anyways.

To each their own, provided no one expects anyone to risk their life for any body recoveries if the loved ones actually EXPECT a burial. The risk takers can lay in the watery grave they dug for themselves. That seems fair enough to me.

Off to gas up my rocket for another trip to the moon and back.

[Tom R]

Right on Warren

Since this is a divers death discussion, I wonder who the idiot instructor or charter operators are who have been letting single tank divers on air bounce dive the Jodrey, now there a death wish waiting to happen. The poorly Trained and Skilled recreational divers are becoming poorly skilled instructors, cave and technical divers.

Mr A

The attitude displayed there is one of money, charter operators in that area feel if they don't do it others will so lets make the quick buck here.

[divedude]

But isn't it OK for some of us to aspire to the finesse and perfection that others don't feel the need to achieve?

Steve (Freeflow Divers Niagara).

YES it is great to aspire to do the best you can do...........

We all have seen diver that need more work on skills.....
But not on of us was born a diver, not me or even Mr. Cousteau.
Some people just want to jump in and go look at a wreck or a reef or just the pretty fish. Most people only dive 5 or 6 times a year.
BUT... What bothers me most is the attitude of some that only their training is the best and some people shouldn't dive.
Most of the people who have the attitude have only been diving a short time.

When I started Chartering 99% of divers came with 2 AL 80's or 2 steel 72's and dove all the same wrecks we still dive today. No one had pony bottles, doubles, stage bottles, duel bladder BC's, lift bags, reels, nitrox, or all the rest of the gear you all need to dive with today. When divers got in the water 10 years ago all that was left on the boat was empty gear bags and some basic save a dive kits.............. All came back safely and had fun

Now when people are in the water I look around the boat and I have enough gear left on board to outfit 10 more divers.

WHY.....................

Because stores, instructors and gear manufacturer's are telling you that in order for you to be "safe" and a better diver you need all this "stuff" to dive properly, and people suck it up and the stores, instructors and gear manufacturer's make money.

I have had so many people in the last couple of years that need help to stand up and move because they have so much gear and long hoses and stuff that I'm not even sure what the heck it's for. Then they hit the water and flop around trying to find this hose and that computer. Man I would quit diving if I had to dive with all that........... Thank god I don't. Why the heck do people need 3 computers and 2 tanks a pony with 50% O2 and a stage bottle to dive to 75 feet for 30 minutes.


YES it is great to aspire to do the best you can do...........

To me, a skill is being to hang upside down at 20 feet with perfect buoyancy and laugh at all the people hanging on for dear life to the mooring line 30 feet away with 200 lbs of gear that they didn't need.

Diving is fun and the underwater world is beautiful and you can never know what is next. I never want to know what I'm diving on when I dive in other places or on reefs. Part of the fun and mystic of diving is exploring and the sense of adventure!

OK I'm Done ranting, I'm going to grab my 50 cf tank now with my old back pack single reg. and go diving in my back yard............... with all this rain it's about 20 feet deep now..............see ya

[Tom R]

I have had so many people in the last couple of years that need help to stand up and move because they have so much gear and long hoses and stuff that I'm not even sure what the heck it's for. Then they hit the water and flop around trying to find this hose and that computer. Man I would quit diving if I had to dive with all that........... Thank god I don't. Why the heck do people need 3 computers and 2 tanks a pony with 50% O2 and a stage bottle to dive to 75 feet for 30 minutes.


To do this dive safely all one needs is one tank of nitrox, a like minded buddy do the dive on thirds, and you should get at least 40 mins on a 80.

[FreeFloat]

Ya know, all those people strapping on "200 lbs of gear" are forgetting a very basic Hogarthian principle.........

"Take only what you need, and don't take anything you DON'T need"

[FreeFloat]

Oh yeah and that goes sorta hand in hand with something a DIR instructor told me once:

"Never substitute EQUIPMENT for SKILL"





OK I'm ignoring this thread now too. :soapbox:

[scubagirl15]

This thread just reinforces something I've always been amazed by: how people jump into the unknown without a care in the world about what exactly they're jumping into. I've seen OW students on checkout dives swim off by themselves into the murky distance...right into the middle of the St Lawrence River. WTF? Do these folks have no sense of self-preservation?

It's like FreeFloat's signature says: You just don't know what it is that you don't know. For me, therein lies the crux: there are those out there taking risks who don't even know that they are. Yes there are elitist divers out there who would like to preserve the sport for their exclusive enjoyment; on the other hand, surely there's something to be said for having a clue about the situation you're about to put yourself into rather than just winging it?

[Scuba_Steve]

YES it is great to aspire to do the best you can do...........

When I started Chartering 99% of divers came with 2 AL 80's or 2 steel 72's and dove all the same wrecks we still dive today. No one had pony bottles, doubles, stage bottles, duel bladder BC's, lift bags, reels, nitrox, or all the rest of the gear you all need to dive with today. When divers got in the water 10 years ago all that was left on the boat was empty gear bags and some basic save a dive kits.............. All came back safely and had fun

Now when people are in the water I look around the boat and I have enough gear left on board to outfit 10 more divers.

WHY.....................

Because stores, instructors and gear manufacturer's are telling you that in order for you to be "safe" and a better diver you need all this "stuff" to dive properly, and people suck it up and the stores, instructors and gear manufacturer's make money.

I have had so many people in the last couple of years that need help to stand up and move because they have so much gear and long hoses and stuff that I'm not even sure what the heck it's for. Then they hit the water and flop around trying to find this hose and that computer. Man I would quit diving if I had to dive with all that........... Thank god I don't. Why the heck do people need 3 computers and 2 tanks a pony with 50% O2 and a stage bottle to dive to 75 feet for 30 minutes.


I agree 100% with you. I've also heard you say this before, by the way. As a matter of fact, it was 2 years ago while we were on your boat! (And I think this year as well.)

Hehhehe, I personally love it when you say this stuff, as so much of it is true. I am also always open enough to listen to what selected people are saying, so I can use it to my benefit.

Double tank and long hose aside.............My doubles don't take up any more room than 2 singles, plus it's easier to be lazy about not switching tanks between dives :-) I stand in the gear for about 20 seconds before flopping in. I can live with that.

Long hose.......we'll it's there for a reason, and I practice using it on at least half of my dives, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

No stages etc required for a 75ft 30min dive. I totally agree. What an annoying task loader for no good reason.

Sure I have a reel, lift bag, extra mask etc on every dive. You don't see them because they're stowed away in pockets. There's no "gear issue" there. I'm not losing or flailing that stuff around either. Have I EVER REALLY needed any of this "additional" gear?

Nope.

I hear ya Jim, and I pretty much agree with you on a lot of these points. But you have to see the other side of it too.

Steve

[Groundhog246]

I hear ya Jim and don't entirely disagree, BUT. I also sail and a good friend pointed out once that while you might regret the $ spent on a piece of safety gear that you never used, you'll regret more the piece of gear you don't have when you need it. Take flares as an example, you've got some. I'll bet I've got more. I know a lady who sails and never leaves the dock with less than about $1200 worth, yep I typed that right. She was once on a boat delivery crew and they ended up on a reef. The legally required dozen flares didn't take long to shoot and attracted no attention (all they had were the 12G shells and launcher which IMHO are pretty useless). Among her "collection" are several parachute flares (@ $100 each). When fired they reach over 1000 foot altitude and take in excess of 30 seconds to descend, vs about 250 to 300 feet for a 12G shell that takes less than 10 seconds up and down. Has she needed them since, no, will she keep carrying them, yes. For myself, along with more than the legally required flares, my PFD, which I wear regularly when the weather blows up or I'm single handing, set me back $250. I could meet the regulations spending a lot less, but what I bought is much more comfy, so I'm more inclined to wear it when I should. Many consider it a waste of $$, I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

Now some divers do carry way more than is needed. For myself, this year I bought a 30cf bottle and a reg and I have been carrying on dives exceeding 60 feet. Needed it yet? No. Will I keep carrying it? Yes, unless of course I start diving doubles. Just knowing it's there has greatly reduced my stress level, which has slowed my breathing and lets me stay longer and enjoy the dive more. And once I got the rigging correct for me, I really don't notice it's there.

[wetbehindtheear]

...once I got the rigging correct for me, I really don't notice it's there.

just curious - what was the correct rigging for you?

[d33ps1x]

...Yes there are elitist divers out there who would like to preserve the sport for their exclusive enjoyment; on the other hand, surely there's something to be said for having a clue about the situation you're about to put yourself into rather than just winging it?

Scubagirl15. I hope that this is not your perception of GUE (DIR) divers. Let me tell you my story if you don't mind.

I was really was put off but what, in my perception was a sneering elitist group of divers called "DIR" divers. So much so that I swore I would never ever take a GUE course and had no interest whatsover in ever meeting anyone associated with the group. I had only ever heard of, spoken with, or watched in internet forums, on the internet these "DIR" divers.

Luckily, in my opinion, I stuck with my investigation and what I found is that the majority of the elitist sneering types you speak of seem to haunt the internet only and you will find on further examination that these divers usually have never taken (or passed) a single GUE course and even more surprisingly usually have a rediculously low number of dives.

They are called 10%'ers and they are in a large part responsible for the bad name this organization has received. They act holier than thou and love to profess their expert opinion and try and force it on others. Again. You will not find very many of these people in real life. You may run across someone who jsut passed their fundamentals and has a epiphany and gets a little overly enthusiastic but you really don't run across the flat out rude people in real life (No more than the number that are just naturally that way anyways).

What I have found is it is an organization of caring and commited instructors, two of which I have had training from first hand, and they simply are commited to giving you a very high quality education for the dollar spent. They have a mission statement that they stick to and they do not compromise and pass you on a course if you don't deserve it just to please you. They will continue to mentor you after your training and you will fnid they will bend over backwards to help you succeed at your goals.

The training doesn't speak to everyone and that is fine too. It is simply more than a lot of people want and that is cool. In my ideal world I'd love to see "DIR" divers everywhere but I also know that just won't happen and you won't see me outside your house in an orange robe playing bells and singing songs of praise about Jarrod Jablonkski or George Irvine either!Just to let you know the majority of GUE divers also wish the holier than thou's would can it, stop preaching, shut up and dive. Speaking of which I am off to bed because I am going tomorrow to do just that!

Hopefully your impressions of GUE are not completely ruined. We are nice people too. Well some would argue I am not but then they've only ever met me on the interenet haven't they... :D

[d33ps1x]

Now some divers do carry way more than is needed. For myself, this year I bought a 30cf bottle and a reg and I have been carrying on dives exceeding 60 feet. Needed it yet? No. Will I keep carrying it? Yes, unless of course I start diving doubles. Just knowing it's there has greatly reduced my stress level, which has slowed my breathing and lets me stay longer and enjoy the dive more. And once I got the rigging correct for me, I really don't notice it's there.

One other point. Some of us may show up at times with a 40 or 80 cf stage or an argon bottle when we aren't diving trimix on some shallow dive but we are also using these shallow dives to prepare ourselves for dives where these tools are absolute neccesities. We may look overdressed but we have upcoming courses that require we be familiar in this gear and there is no better place to practice than in the water.

We may be diving with more than we been but we are becoming familiar with gear we will need someday so we can use it efficiently when the time comes. That is not substituting equipment for skill.

BTW. In case I've yet to mention it thanks very much for helping us on and off your boat when we have been on it Jim. You do make a great babysitter for us Christmas trees and are very patient and helpful with us. :D

[Scuba_Steve]

Scubagirl15. I hope that this is not your perception of GUE (DIR) divers. Let me tell you my story if you don't mind.

I was really was put off but what, in my perception was a sneering elitist group of divers called "DIR" divers. So much so that I swore I would never ever take a GUE course and had no interest whatsover in ever meeting anyone associated with the group. I had only ever heard of, spoken with, or watched in internet forums, on the internet these "DIR" divers.

Luckily, in my opinion, I stuck with my investigation and what I found is that the majority of the elitist sneering types you speak of seem to haunt the internet only and you will find on further examination that these divers usually have never taken (or passed) a single GUE course and even more surprisingly usually have a rediculously low number of dives.

They are called 10%'ers and they are in a large part responsible for the bad name this organization has received. They act holier than thou and love to profess their expert opinion and try and force it on others. Again. You will not find very many of these people in real life. You may run across someone who jsut passed their fundamentals and has a epiphany and gets a little overly enthusiastic but you really don't run across the flat out rude people in real life (No more than the number that are just naturally that way anyways).

What I have found is it is an organization of caring and commited instructors, two of which I have had training from first hand, and they simply are commited to giving you a very high quality education for the dollar spent. They have a mission statement that they stick to and they do not compromise and pass you on a course if you don't deserve it just to please you. They will continue to mentor you after your training and you will fnid they will bend over backwards to help you succeed at your goals.

The training doesn't speak to everyone and that is fine too. It is simply more than a lot of people want and that is cool. In my ideal world I'd love to see "DIR" divers everywhere but I also know that just won't happen and you won't see me outside your house in an orange robe playing bells and singing songs of praise about Jarrod Jablonkski or George Irvine either!Just to let you know the majority of GUE divers also wish the holier than thou's would can it, stop preaching, shut up and dive. Speaking of which I am off to bed because I am going tomorrow to do just that!

Hopefully your impressions of GUE are not completely ruined. We are nice people too. Well some would argue I am not but then they've only ever met me on the interenet haven't they... :D

Well put my man!

Currently being one of those 10%ers, as you once were, I can see that I am following the same route and thought processes that you have.

Regards

Steve

[Groundhog246]

Well said, I do indeed understand that many in their doubles with stages are treating them as training dives for much more demanding dives. In my view, almost every dive is a training dive, as I am always working to improve my trim, buoyancy, SAC, etc.

Rigging for my 30CF. I dive a Sherwood Outback. Carry it rigged like a stage bottle (clips at the neck and about 2/3 down the body of the cylinder, piece of inner tube to secure the 2nd), and clipped off on my right side, upper D ring on the shoulder/chest and at lower right ring at my waist. I find that's the most out of the way place (keeps it away from the inflator assy on the left) for me. When slinging it, I move 1 pound of lead to the left, so that the left weight pocket has 2 lbs more than the right. The advantages IMHO of that location, I can see the spg (it's on a 6" hose) and the 1st and 2nd stages, it's less of an entaglement hazard than piggy backed on the main tank and if it did tangle I can see/clear or even dump it, if required I could unclip underwater and pass to another diver.

[scubagirl15]

Scubagirl15. I hope that this is not your perception of GUE (DIR) divers. Let me tell you my story if you don't mind.

I was really was put off but what, in my perception was a sneering elitist group of divers called "DIR" divers. So much so that I swore I would never ever take a GUE course and had no interest whatsover in ever meeting anyone associated with the group. I had only ever heard of, spoken with, or watched in internet forums, on the internet these "DIR" divers.

Luckily, in my opinion, I stuck with my investigation and what I found is that the majority of the elitist sneering types you speak of seem to haunt the internet only and you will find on further examination that these divers usually have never taken (or passed) a single GUE course and even more surprisingly usually have a rediculously low number of dives.

They are called 10%'ers and they are in a large part responsible for the bad name this organization has received. They act holier than thou and love to profess their expert opinion and try and force it on others. Again. You will not find very many of these people in real life. You may run across someone who jsut passed their fundamentals and has a epiphany and gets a little overly enthusiastic but you really don't run across the flat out rude people in real life (No more than the number that are just naturally that way anyways).

What I have found is it is an organization of caring and commited instructors, two of which I have had training from first hand, and they simply are commited to giving you a very high quality education for the dollar spent. They have a mission statement that they stick to and they do not compromise and pass you on a course if you don't deserve it just to please you. They will continue to mentor you after your training and you will fnid they will bend over backwards to help you succeed at your goals.

The training doesn't speak to everyone and that is fine too. It is simply more than a lot of people want and that is cool. In my ideal world I'd love to see "DIR" divers everywhere but I also know that just won't happen and you won't see me outside your house in an orange robe playing bells and singing songs of praise about Jarrod Jablonkski or George Irvine either!Just to let you know the majority of GUE divers also wish the holier than thou's would can it, stop preaching, shut up and dive. Speaking of which I am off to bed because I am going tomorrow to do just that!

Hopefully your impressions of GUE are not completely ruined. We are nice people too. Well some would argue I am not but then they've only ever met me on the interenet haven't they... :D

Not at all D33p. Never said anything about GUE or DIR. In fact, I'm working on my skills right now in preparation to do a DIR-F course. I never understood the hostility I've noticed towards GUE or DIR.

To be completely honest, I wish more people would dive with a lot more awareness and care, but I'm enough of a realist to accept that there are many divers out there who don't dive that way and don't understand why I would. Heck, I know divers who think they're god's gift to diving but will flutter kick their way around a wreck and ruin the viz for everyone: I could rant for days on this subject, but I'll keep my opinions to myself. You probably share those opinions! :)

In my lowly newbie DM position, I do what I can to 'brain wash' OW students about being aware of their surroundings and their techniques, about the need to practice, practice, practice, and above all, I do my best to lead by example. However, like I said, I still marvel at those who dive with so little self-awareness let alone environmental awareness, I'm amazed they haven't met a Darwinian end.

All I'm trying to do is not come across as an elitist and therefore offend or put off those 'casual' divers whom I hope to positively influence.

[sparky30]

But isn't it OK for some of us to aspire to the finesse and perfection that others don't feel the need to achieve?
--- SNIP ---
What keeps most people safe is the (almost) infalibility of the gear, and a load of good fortune, sprinkled with short enough bottom times, to cover up their horrendous diving practices.
--- SNIP ---
Steve (Freeflow Divers Niagara).

Of course there is nothing wrong with asipring to improve. Just as long as people don't get forced to do it... What's horrendous to some is acceptable to others.

[sparky30]

In my lowly newbie DM position, I do what I can to 'brain wash' OW students about being aware of their surroundings and their techniques, about the need to practice, practice, practice, and above all, I do my best to lead by example.

Adivice is always nice.. Just remember that some of the students get overwhelmed.. Don't scare them so much with advice (often perceived at criticism) that they drop out of the sport. If they are really interested they wil grow into it and learn for themselves.. Get more training, etc..

[Scuba_Steve]

Of course there is nothing wrong with asipring to improve. Just as long as people don't get forced to do it... What's horrendous to some is acceptable to others.

Horrendous may have been an overstatment on my part, so if I tone it down and say "poor diver quality" instead, we go full circle and realize that a poor diver is a poor diver, whether they know it or not (and they usually don't), they're a hazard to themselves and others.

Therefore they are acceptable to themselves, only because they don't know any better.

I'm sure Dan MacKay will re-inforce in me why I am still a poor diver in October on the DIRf course.

Ya wanna come Spark?

If not. I'm told there'll be much video going around afterwards for all to see :-)

Mmmmmmm I like video of me doing stupid stuff.

Steve

[bubblelogist]

I see a here that some people blame dive industry, instructors, equipment, etc. that we have bad divers. Personnaly I prefer thinking about what I can do to improve. I'm not an instroctor, neither a DM, and don't have time to be one. But when I'm diving with people with less experience that I have, and I see what they can improve, I try to help them. Sure, I wont be teaching them new skills, or bring an OW in AOW dives, but I can show them how to have a better buoyancy, trim, etc. when I dive with them, and I saw a difference. I don't think it's replace a good instructor, but at least it helps people.

[Ontario Diver]

I'm sure Dan MacKay will re-inforce in me why I am still a poor diver in October on the DIRf course.
Steve

It is not that you are a poor or unsafe diver, it is that you have a chance to become a better diver.....

[Scuba_Steve]

It is not that you are a poor or unsafe diver, it is that you have a chance to become a better diver.....

Agreed, but trust me, I'm a poor diver :-)

Steve

[pcosens]

I've read all of the posts here to date . . . .

Some observations from an old Tobermorry diver w/way too many hours on the Arabia.

1 As I stated elsewhere, a significant number of fatalities in Tobermory in the last years have NOT really been diving "disease" processes, rather they reflect typical NON DIVING causes of death. Older divers=more nondiving related "in water" deaths. Interesting wake up call for any male over the age of 30 - yes, 30. RESET your limits - not just depth!

2 I have personally fought current on the Arabia that made me PINE for the ST Lawrence - multiple current layers, often 180 degrees to each other with a shear zone of less than 10 feet, with the corresponding "S" curve in the down line. Quite an experience to fight your way down to find the line vibrating HORIZONTAL across the deck of the Arabia due to extreme flow (made the drop to the deck easier). HOLD ON!

3 I agree with the notion that many males dive the Arabia to thrill seek. A retired T.O. shop owner once said that people dove the Arabia so they could "tilt at their windmills", "dance with death" - what else made their lives exciting? (I've loosly transcribed his quote)

4 ANY amount of training will NOT improve this situation. Good divers will do the necessary work-up diving to safely explore at depth. The rest of the herd will not. Quite frankly in all my years of charter captaining, diving, I've always maintained that diving is INCREDIBLY safe - look at all of the idiotic things people have done and lived to tell us about;-)

Cheers,
Paul

[Under Michael]

Scubagirl15. I hope that this is not your perception of GUE (DIR) divers. Let me tell you my story if you don't mind.

I was really was put off but what, in my perception was a sneering elitist group of divers called "DIR" divers. So much so that I swore I would never ever take a GUE course and had no interest whatsover in ever meeting anyone associated with the group. I had only ever heard of, spoken with, or watched in internet forums, on the internet these "DIR" divers.

Luckily, in my opinion, I stuck with my investigation and what I found is that the majority of the elitist sneering types you speak of seem to haunt the internet only and you will find on further examination that these divers usually have never taken (or passed) a single GUE course and even more surprisingly usually have a rediculously low number of dives.

They are called 10%'ers and they are in a large part responsible for the bad name this organization has received. They act holier than thou and love to profess their expert opinion and try and force it on others. Again. You will not find very many of these people in real life. You may run across someone who jsut passed their fundamentals and has a epiphany and gets a little overly enthusiastic but you really don't run across the flat out rude people in real life (No more than the number that are just naturally that way anyways).

What I have found is it is an organization of caring and commited instructors, two of which I have had training from first hand, and they simply are commited to giving you a very high quality education for the dollar spent. They have a mission statement that they stick to and they do not compromise and pass you on a course if you don't deserve it just to please you. They will continue to mentor you after your training and you will fnid they will bend over backwards to help you succeed at your goals.

The training doesn't speak to everyone and that is fine too. It is simply more than a lot of people want and that is cool. In my ideal world I'd love to see "DIR" divers everywhere but I also know that just won't happen and you won't see me outside your house in an orange robe playing bells and singing songs of praise about Jarrod Jablonkski or George Irvine either!Just to let you know the majority of GUE divers also wish the holier than thou's would can it, stop preaching, shut up and dive. Speaking of which I am off to bed because I am going tomorrow to do just that!

Hopefully your impressions of GUE are not completely ruined. We are nice people too. Well some would argue I am not but then they've only ever met me on the interenet haven't they... :D

Excellent post d33ps1x, that talented expression will likely have more than a few divers thinking.
UM

[sparky30]

Ya wanna come Spark?


Thought about it.. Unfortunately I'm broke at the moment.. Its not forgotten, just postponed.. Courses are fun.. They always point out how little I really know..
At the moment diving has to take a back seat to some other stuff that's going on...Maybe next year.

[snuggle]

if you dont mind me asking ..why is it that threads get off topic real fast when someone dies diving?it goes from condolences to opinions then to something else...

[Scuba_Steve]

Because we're like squirrels. We jump from branch to branch to branch, and the next thing you know, we're two trees over.

No biggie.

[snuggle]

lol never heard anyone put it that way before ..but so true

[diverindeep]

Are people getting carried away?

There have been a lot of deaths on the Arabia but that, much like the Marsh in Kingston, is mostly because it is a very popular wreck that entices people who shouldn't be in 110 feet of lakewater to go visit her. We often forget that diving up here most days is considered extreme diving elsewhere in the world. It's dark, it's cold, and the gear considerations make it doubly hard. Throw in a low vis day with the narcosis of 110 feet, a single 80 cylinder with a crap fill, and a not so experienced diver and you have a very potent recipe for disaster time and again. It's no wonder so many people die on the thing.

People talk about having advanced certification. Big deal. At least one agency we all know of will allow a diver to immediately after completing your 4 open water dives do your 5 "advanced" dives right away. So now you have a diver with a grand total of 11 dives (only 1 below 60 feet) able to do the Arabia and other wrecks in that range. That is ill equipped. It takes time to develop the problem solving and gas management abilities needed to handle an issue at this depth. That's it. You just need time in the water that a lot of people don't have before going there.

Advanced certification is an ill concieved cash grab that is fed buy a dive shop and charter industry that enjoys the $250 or so plus fills plus equipment rentals plus charters to take you on 5 guided dives over two days with little or no in class time spent. It's probably the only course that shops make a clear cut GOOD profit on and it does nothing for the diver except allow them to step onto a boat and do an "advanced" dive that they probably shouldn't be doing. The arguement is that it is guided time in the water doing things you normally wouldn't do on your own for experience. True. But if you think you are at your safest and about to become an advanced diver by being jammed in the water with 5 or 6 other students and 1 instructor and 1 dm at 100 feet for one dive you are kidding yourself. It leaves you completely lacking to do a wreck in the 110 foot range.

The remainder of those deaths are as someone mentioned earlier,"old guy issues", due to health pre-conditions or poor health in general. Luckily the majority of deaths in the water seem to be due to poor health according to DAN reports. I mean luckily because it is not a diving related issue per say. The same things arguably could have happened playing hockey or some other sport. However, the sooner training agencies stop pushing the idea that diving is NOT a sport and doesn't require good health and fitness the sooner we will stop seeing so many deaths like heart attacks while diving.

I'm not talking about simply overweight. I am talking about healthy. There IS a difference. Big people can have the heart, lungs and muscle to handle a situation that a rake thin dude may not because he has a low cardio tolerance, precondition , etc. Everything is hunky dory until there IS a current or something and then these poor folks little couch potato hearts pop like a champagne cork after the championship game.

At the end of the day it is really up to the diver if they can and should do the dive. Let's face it. A lot of people get into diving because they consider it an extreme sport and WANT to push their boundaries and take risks. Others prefer getting all the training they can to offset the risk factors. The first group have just as much right and just as valid a reason as the second and as long as their attitude and outlook don't endanger the latter half then what is the big deal. They pay their insurance and taxes too. I personally like the training and have attempted to prepare myself as best I can physically, skillwise, knowledgewise and equipmentwise. Thats it really. I'm just not a risk taker and I picture myself dying an angry little (dirty) old man some far away day.

Just one vocal opinion. Others may and will vary.



well put..