Blending of new and old

[Mark Vlahos]

Hi,

The idea of a double hose regulator intrigues me, the bubbles behind me would be nice.

Are there any double hose regulators either vintage or contemporary that will allow the following standard devices to be safely used?


A place to connect a standard low pressure inflator hose to fill a back inflate wing or other standard BC.

A place to attach a modern second stage in the event of my own equipment failure or the need of a second stage by a buddy.

A place to attach a submersible pressure guage.

The ability to use this on a modern 3000 psi tank with either DIN or Yoke valve.


I guess some of these things might be accomplished with an H or Y valve and a second modern first stage regulator set, but I am not the least bit familiar with vintage regulators so this might not even be possible due to obstructions. I guess that is why I am asking here. I hope these questions are not out of line, but if I never ask I will never know.

I am also curious about just how much bouyancy the air in the double hoses adds when compared with the modern regulator I am diving now.

Mark Vlahos

[John C. Ratliff]

Mark,

If you can find them, the AMF Voit Trieste II and the Sportsways Hydro-Twin probably meet your criterion (although I'm not as sure about the Hydro-Twin and a 3000 psi yolk--I have one and it seems okay, but may not be rated for 3000 psi). Both of these regulators have both HP and LP outlets. With a multi-hose adapter, it will accomodate both an octopus second stage and an inflator hose.

The new Aqualung Mentor regulator also meets your criterion. It is a new regulator, but is very, very expensive. Apparently it can be bought from Aqualung if you talk directly to the manufacturer. It is being made for the US Navy, and is not advertised at all.

SeaRat

[Mark Vlahos]

Thank you,

This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. If anyone has more information please continue to post it here.

Mark Vlahos

[caveseeker7]

Mark, John,

Aqualung just inroduced the Mistral twin hose regulator in Germany.
It passed all required CE testing and is offered there for 760 Euros.
Don't know what Aqualung plans for it in the US are.

[DA Aquamaster]

The new Mistral appears to use what is basically a conventional first stage with normal ports, so adding an octo, low pressure inflator and an SPG would be done in the normal manner with no adapters required.

[Nemrod]

Can anyone explain why everyhting good is sold in Europe. We actually have money over here too. I suppose it is all the lawyers. I cannot imagine there being more interest in Europe vs USA in double hose regs. Oh well, not sure that is an improvement upon a Royal Aquamaster. Nemrod

[Nemrod]

I know this is an old thread, sorry for bringing it back up but I am not sure Mark's question was ever answered. I have learned over time that the USD DA Aquamaster and the USD Roya Aquamaster can be rigged with a single hose second stage off of the hookah port with an adpter. A SPG can be run from the tank valve or a rare but desirable device called a banjo fitting. Alternately, if diving with a double rig with double outlets or a single with a Y Valve it is possible to run a double hose reg and then use a single hose reg as a back up with two second stages, LP inflator and SPG. Anyways, there are actually several ways to accomplish what Mark asked and lot's of folks who know much more than me about how to accomplish this. N

[DA Aquamaster]

Can anyone explain why everyhting good is sold in Europe. We actually have money over here too. I suppose it is all the lawyers. I cannot imagine there being more interest in Europe vs USA in double hose regs.Even if the new Mistral uses check valves in the mouthpiece it will still require some slightly different non industry standard techniques in operation and will remove the option in most cases of donating the primary regulator to an OOA diver. The fact that it is "different", "not an industry standard" and based on "old" or even "antiquated" technology that has long since been replaced by "better" single hose technology is problematic from a liability standpoint. It pretty much ensures that some moron will do something stupid with one or use it without adequate training and kill themselves as then of course some laywer will takwe the case and sue the company for selling a sub standard product that allowed the moron to kill himself.

I recently finished "Fatal Depth" and while it is not the best read I have seen on diving, it provides a good example of this phenomenon. A tech diver who lied to his instructor and several other people, wrote an inflated number of dives on the paperwork to qualify for trimix training, and signed a hold harmless waiver to dive on the Andrea Doria, got himself killed on the wreck.

An attorney then represented the deceased family and sued the boat owner, the instructor and the training agency for $36 million dollars because he felt someone should be held accountable. The defendents ultimately won the case but they still incurred substantial legal expenses in a case where the deceased was the person ultimately responsible for the events and decisions leading to his death and had willingly signed several waivers along the way indicating he knew and accepted the risks.

As long as we continue to devalue the concept of personal responsibility and allow trial attorneys to bring nuisance lawsuits we are not going to have an environment that is conducive to allowing companies to do something different. The sad part is that the ultimate cost is borne by the consumer who indirectly pays for the outrageous cost of liability insurance premiums and/or settlements on outrageous lawsuits.

[Turtleguy9]

Mark, John,

Aqualung just inroduced the Mistral twin hose regulator in Germany.
It passed all required CE testing and is offered there for 760 Euros.
Don't know what Aqualung plans for it in the US are.

Aloha Caveseeker
Do you have any more photos of the new regulator? I would be very interested in getting one.
Thanks
Turtleguy

[fdog]

OK...so I was eager...and wrong. It looks as if the Mistral is not the civilian version of the Mentor that I was hoping for. See here for the real Mentor. (http://www.vintagescubasupply.com/gallery4.html)

Actually, I like the looks of this new version better. If I can run down a supplier, I'll let everyone know.

All the best, James

[Nemrod]

Thanks DA, just what I figured--lawyers--deciding for us what we can and cannot buy.

Well, if this regulator is actually available in Europe then some enterprising person who actually lives in a free country unlike the Peoples Republik of Amerika could start a cottage buisness exporting the regulators to those of us who live behind the legal iron curtain of idiocy. Not PC correct and I don't care! N

[captain]

Here is the skinny direct from the horses mouth. To be available in the US later this year so said. This link takes a while to download.

http://www.factory.fr/aqualung/EN_Cata2005_export.pdf

Captain

[Walter]

Nemrod, while I agree with your point that this regulator should be available in the US, it's a marketing decision on the part of Aqualung, it's not a result of it's sale being banned by the US government.

[caveseeker7]

Do you have any more photos of the new regulator?

Only the one below.
On a German website I found it theu're offered for sale.
Don't know if they ship to the US.

When I got certified in '83 it was on both single and double stage regs, both with buddy breathing due to lack of octos. Simple training, not rocket science.

It would be a shame if it wouldn't reach the US because of liability worries.
Having passed CE (two different ones) it should be a decent regulator.

According to the press release at the boat show the reason for the Mistral is the increase in UW photo and film and therefor demand for it. Considering the amount of diving done in the US, there should be a good enough market to support it.

[caveseeker7]

It's your lucky day, turtleguy.

My friend Janwillem just posted his BOOT-05 report on his Rebreathers Worldwide website and included the new Mistral (http://www.therebreathersite.nl/Boot%202005/aqualung.htm) with a couple of pictures.
Just scroll down past the Dräger RBs and FFMs. :D

[Deep Sea Alan]

Hi,

The idea of a double hose regulator intrigues me, the bubbles behind me would be nice.

Are there any double hose regulators either vintage or contemporary that will allow the following standard devices to be safely used?


A place to connect a standard low pressure inflator hose to fill a back inflate wing or other standard BC.

A place to attach a modern second stage in the event of my own equipment failure or the need of a second stage by a buddy.

A place to attach a submersible pressure guage.

The ability to use this on a modern 3000 psi tank with either DIN or Yoke valve.


I guess some of these things might be accomplished with an H or Y valve and a second modern first stage regulator set, but I am not the least bit familiar with vintage regulators so this might not even be possible due to obstructions. I guess that is why I am asking here. I hope these questions are not out of line, but if I never ask I will never know.

I am also curious about just how much bouyancy the air in the double hoses adds when compared with the modern regulator I am diving now.

Mark Vlahos
Hello Mark,

I may be dating myself but when I first attended Navy Dive school we did use single hose regulators (US Divers Conshelf 12’s) but a few double hose regs were available. I eventually bought one from a swap meet and grabbed every spare part for it I could come across (especially the rubber duck bill exhaust valves). I stripped it down and made it serviceable, with the help of the real "Old Timers". I am writing this because you need to realize you don't have a second stage to sense the ambient water pressure where your mouth is. Every thing is behind your head, which depending on your position in the water, is at a slightly different depth. The bottom line is this- If you set your double hose to breath easily in a normal swimming position when turn on your back it will be forcing the air to you. If you set it to breath correctly when you are on your back (as in working under a ship face up) it will be harder to breath in a normal swimming position. I still have my U.S Divers “Royal Aqua Master” Double Hose in perfect condition but I dive my Scubapro X650 / Mk 25 and I trust my 10 year old son to a Scubapro S600/ Mk25. I have no experience with the new double hoses mentioned by the other divers but I would highly advise trying one before you invest your money. Mark I hope this helps, half the fun of diving is new equipment, enjoy!

Alan

[Mark Vlahos]

Wow,

I had sort of written this thread off to the ages.

Lots of good info here, many thanks.

Mark Vlahos

[Turtleguy9]

It's your lucky day, turtleguy.

My friend Janwillem just posted his BOOT-05 report on his Rebreathers Worldwide website and included the new Mistral (http://www.therebreathersite.nl/Boot%202005/aqualung.htm) with a couple of pictures.
Just scroll down past the Dräger RBs and FFMs. :D

Aloha Caveseeker
Thanks so much for the great post. You have come up with the best pictures of the new Mistral I have seen yet.
Turtleguy

[Nemrod]

One thing about double hoses, we used both double and single hoses units in my scuba class and I have dived a Mistral for quite a while before retiring it and now only to resurrect it yet again. Think about that. A regulator my uncle bought in 1958 and dived a bunch, given to me circa 1968 and dived bunches more and here in 2005 it is still in great shape! What modern single hose made of plastic thingy will still be serviceable in 2055? These things were built in a time when things were not designed with planned obsolecence in mind, they were meant to be rebuilt over and over and so thay have been.
There is basic difference in set up for a single vs a double. Most diving was done with 72s or even shorter double 38s etc. These tanks were set low in the backpack, lower than is typical for a single hose today. Since, further, BCs were not in use many of us were weighted slightly negative at depth which required one to swim with their body at a slight angle of attack to provide bouyancy via lift. This placed the main sensing diaphram of the double hose approximately equal to the center of the lungs or slightly higher. When breathing with a double hose, rather than the "normal" breathing we do with single hose units, one should instead take long, slow deep breaths and near complete exhalations. Why?, because the cracking effort to get a double hose breathing is greater than a modern single hose but once air is flowing a venturi effect occurs within the main housing that helps to pull the diaphram downward and provide an Easy flow of air. To minimize the work required to get the flow started, the cracking effort, you minimize the number of times this occurs by taking the longer deeper breaths, rather than many "normal" breaths. Exhalation with a double hose is as easy if not easier than with a single hose and exhalation effort has been shown to actually cause greater fatigue than inhaling.
Not an expert on the above, just some observations and what has always been told to me by those who know more. Do not dive a double hose without proper training on clearing, set up, expectations. N

[captain]

http://www.factory.fr/aqualung/EN_Cata2005_export.pdf

If any of you tried this link and thought it was bad it takes a while to open but it is the Aqua Lung catalog with pics and specs on the new Mistral

[OWIC647]

[QUOTE=caveseeker7]Only the one below.
On a German website I found it theu're offered for sale.
Don't know if they ship to the US.

When I got certified in '83 it was on both single and double stage regs, both with buddy breathing due to lack of octos. Simple training, not rocket science.

I would like to know what agency was teaching with double hoses in 1983 ? I was teaching then and we had been using octo/Safe 2nd stages for years before that.

[caveseeker7]

I was certified in Austria in 1983 through an agency called DIWA - Diving Instructor World Association. They were headquartered elsewhere though, and quite popular at the time in southern parts of Europe. I believe they still excist.

Certification took a week and 15 dives in a backyard pond (in lieu of a pool), lakes and rivers from shores and boats. It included just about every thing that is sold as OW, ADV OW and Rescue today, excepth CPR. Night- and low viz dives, freediving, getting an "unconscious" diver from 20 meters to the surface, towing im 200 meters to shore, pulling him out of the water and giving mouth-to-mouth, all that sort of thing.

Max. depth was 40 meters. Equipmentwise we used double- and single stage regs, tanks with J-valves (I belive, the ones with reserve rod), plastic backplates, horsecollar BCDs and (what looked like) Jet Fins. We did both buddy breathing (from either reg) and donating a second reg (from small, independent twins).

The "c-card" was a passport size booklet.
Both training and instructor were very good.

[fdog]

It's your lucky day, turtleguy.

My friend Janwillem just posted his BOOT-05 report on his Rebreathers Worldwide website and included the new Mistral (http://www.therebreathersite.nl/Boot%202005/aqualung.htm) with a couple of pictures.
Just scroll down past the Dräger RBs and FFMs. :D
Thanks for the link...good photos.

All the best, James

[OWIC647]

I was certified in Austria in 1983 through an agency called DIWA - Diving Instructor World Association. They were headquartered elsewhere though, and quite popular at the time in southern parts of Europe. I believe they still excist.

Certification took a week and 15 dives in a backyard pond (in lieu of a pool), lakes and rivers from shores and boats. It included just about every thing that is sold as OW, ADV OW and Rescue today, excepth CPR. Night- and low viz dives, freediving, getting an "unconscious" diver from 20 meters to the surface, towing im 200 meters to shore, pulling him out of the water and giving mouth-to-mouth, all that sort of thing.

Max. depth was 40 meters. Equipmentwise we used double- and single stage regs, tanks with J-valves (I belive, the ones with reserve rod), plastic backplates, horsecollar BCDs and (what looked like) Jet Fins. We did both buddy breathing (from either reg) and donating a second reg (from small, independent twins).

The "c-card" was a passport size booklet.
Both training and instructor were very good.


I found their site......I'm writing them now for information on using double hose regulators as training equipment in class.

[Bob3]

The new Mistrals are going to be shipping to US markets sometime "about" mid February, with a price tag in the (ballpark) $900 range.
My local shop has one of the critters in their showcase, apparently they wouldn't let the AquaLung rep leave the store unless he left it. ;)

[StSomewhere]

Can anyone explain why everyhting good is sold in Europe. We actually have money over here too. I suppose it is all the lawyers. I cannot imagine there being more interest in Europe vs USA in double hose regs. Oh well, not sure that is an improvement upon a Royal Aquamaster. Nemrod
AquaLung *is* a French company after all. No surprise they would release a new product in their own neck of the woods first.

[Nemrod]

Well, that makes a certain sense since I imagine the reason everything is made someplace other than here is due to lawyers. Funny that, I have USD equipment from the 50s, 60s and 70s that says Made in the USA stamped all over them and other bits they say made in France like this lovely old USD depth guage I am holding.
Regardless, the "new" double hose unit does not seem well thought out especailly with that hose looping about from the first stage to the second. I will wait for Gen II. N

[John C. Ratliff]

Most of what Nemrod said of double hose regulators hold true, particularly concerning placement of the regulator on the tank. But looking at the new Aqualung Mistral, it appears that this is a unit that could defy all the problems associated with tank mounting of the double hose regulator. The first and second stages of the new Mistral appear to be separate units, which can be disconnected. If this is true, it is a breakthrough for the double hose unit. This would allow the second stage to be placed on a chest-mount, which completely negates the usual disadvantage of double hose regulators. Also, with the two stages being separated, a diver could use the newer manifolds for double tanks which have twin posts, one above each tank with an on-off valve over each, and another separating the two cylinders. The first stage could be mounted on one post, a redundant single hose regulator on the other post, and the second stage of the Mistral centered on the backpack. The design looks revolutionary to me.

SeaRat

[fdog]

Just heard from my LDS. As of last Friday (28 Jan 2005) there 40 left available in the USA for February, and 8 more for March. Retail $990.

All the best, James

[Turtleguy9]

Just heard from my LDS. As of last Friday (28 Jan 2005) there 40 left available in the USA for February, and 8 more for March. Retail $990.

All the best, James

Thanks for the update James
I have not purchsed any new gear from Aqualung in years, but I better find a local shop here, that sells it, if I want one. The shop I work for mostly sells Scubapro, and Sherwood.
Aloha Turtleguy

[Scubaroo]

Just heard from my LDS. As of last Friday (28 Jan 2005) there 40 left available in the USA for February, and 8 more for March. Retail $990.

All the best, JamesNot bad - SimplyScuba has them for 459 pounds, or about $850 USD, hardly worth the effort of importing them privately.

[ScoobieDooo]

Even if the new Mistral uses check valves in the mouthpiece it will still require some slightly different non industry standard techniques in operation and will remove the option in most cases of donating the primary regulator to an OOA diver. The fact that it is "different", "not an industry standard" and based on "old" or even "antiquated" technology that has long since been replaced by "better" single hose technology is problematic from a liability standpoint. It pretty much ensures that some moron will do something stupid with one or use it without adequate training and kill themselves as then of course some laywer will takwe the case and sue the company for selling a sub standard product that allowed the moron to kill himself.

I recently finished "Fatal Depth" and while it is not the best read I have seen on diving, it provides a good example of this phenomenon. A tech diver who lied to his instructor and several other people, wrote an inflated number of dives on the paperwork to qualify for trimix training, and signed a hold harmless waiver to dive on the Andrea Doria, got himself killed on the wreck.

An attorney then represented the deceased family and sued the boat owner, the instructor and the training agency for $36 million dollars because he felt someone should be held accountable. The defendents ultimately won the case but they still incurred substantial legal expenses in a case where the deceased was the person ultimately responsible for the events and decisions leading to his death and had willingly signed several waivers along the way indicating he knew and accepted the risks.

As long as we continue to devalue the concept of personal responsibility and allow trial attorneys to bring nuisance lawsuits we are not going to have an environment that is conducive to allowing companies to do something different. The sad part is that the ultimate cost is borne by the consumer who indirectly pays for the outrageous cost of liability insurance premiums and/or settlements on outrageous lawsuits.

I (and others) selling Vintage Rebuilt Doube Hose Regs have offered brass adapters for connecting an octopus to the vintage Aqua Lung Aqua Master's reg's. However, because of issues of liability and lawsuits today I discontinued selling them. They did however work great. There is a air pneumatics distributor in Florida that was making these for me when I was offering them. They did a swell job making them for me and they worked quite well. It did add an extra margin of safety to the vintage regs that many (and I) were seeking. Some vintage divers didn't want any part of them stating that the very reason many dove this old regs was 'simplicity' and in adding an octo one defeated the issue of simplicity and the vintage 'authenticity' of such.

You decide!

I believe Bryan at Reb's Parts still offers these adapter's for the vintage Aqua Masters. He has a web site as well and offers vintage parts of the Aqua Master's, etc.

[JES]

The AquaLung U.S. website has the new Mistral listed:

AquaLung Mistral (U.S. Catalog) (http://www.aqualung.com/products/mistral.html )

[ScoobieDooo]

Yea,
I saw it. Price tag is set to be $900 with only 500 pcs scheduled to be released.

That was a cool idea but I still think the older version is nicer, historically 'correct' and more aesthetic!

[Thomcmdchief]

Actually, they're available in Spain for $610.91 plus around $60.00 shipping to the US, 3 day air.

[ScoobieDooo]

That’s insane - one can have 2-3 Royals or DA's for that price! Thought the whole idea of diving double hosers WAS the fun of buying, restoring, rebuilding and tuning of vintage 50's-70's regs?

I just acquired a new one 2 wks ago. At first I didn't think it warranted what I paid for it. Then I took it to the pool for the first time. It wasn't bad - but not quite like an Apek's or Legend. Then I began to look at tank position, etc. I had my tank up WAY too high still on my back. I dropped the tank down between my shoulder blades and went tonight and tried it again - BIG DIFFERENCE! Awesome! It breathed quite well, never flooded - but I especially found not having any exhaust in my face really enjoyable. It was quite quiet and I got a lot of stares and inquiries on "What the heck IS that that you’re diving there" statements!

I was surprised on how EASY it was to clear after removal from my mouth and replacing again. I also found regulator 'recovery' to be quite easy as well.

I'm sold on mine and wouldn't give it up now for any price...

In fact, I'd like to add more to my collecting now and am committed to using them for all my dives below 100 ft.

[John C. Ratliff]

...Then I took it to the pool for the first time. It wasn't bad - but not quite like an Apek's or Legend. Then I began to look at tank position, etc. I had my tank up WAY too high still on my back. I dropped the tank down between my shoulder blades and went tonight and tried it again - BIG DIFFERENCE! Awesome! It breathed quite well, never flooded - but I especially found not having any exhaust in my face really enjoyable. It was quite quiet and I got a lot of stares and inquiries on "What the heck IS that that you’re diving there" statements!

I was surprised on how EASY it was to clear after removal from my mouth and replacing again. I also found regulator 'recovery' to be quite easy as well.

I'm sold on mine and wouldn't give it up now for any price...

In fact, I'd like to add more to my collecting now and am committed to using them for all my dives below 100 ft.

ScoobieDoo,

'Glad you found the magic of dropping the regulator to between your shoulder blades. It does make a great difference in the breathing characteristics of any double hose regulator. Actually, it does for a single hose reg too. Ever been vertical, look up at the surface and tried to breath on the single hose dream machines? That's when they breath hard. This is why I'm still interested in the New Mistral, because it looks like I can detach the second stage, and try the ideal breathing position, a chest-mounted regulator.

SeaRat

[ScoobieDooo]

A recent post by a member who just tried one of the new Mistral's found it rather dissapointing. Thats unfortunate for a reg costing around $900 US.