Are the Super Wings too much?

[Jcrain33]

I am about to begin tech training, and I needed to know a little bit of info about a bc setup. I am planning on purchasing the Dive Rite steel back plate and harness, but I can't decide on the wings. I will currently be using my bc with al 80 doubles, but in the future I would like to do some cave diving with pressed steel 104s and some decompression bottles. Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s? Thanks for your help! (And be nice to me, this is my first post!)

[Wendy]

I am about to begin tech training, and I needed to know a little bit of info about a bc setup. I am planning on purchasing the Dive Rite steel back plate and harness, but I can't decide on the wings. I will currently be using my bc with al 80 doubles, but in the future I would like to do some cave diving with pressed steel 104s and some decompression bottles. Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s? Thanks for your help! (And be nice to me, this is my first post!)


And yes! They are too big for both in my opinion. Have you looked at the rec or the classic wings? They might be better if you are stuck on getting dive rite wings. The trek wings work well with double al80's (without bungees).

[novadiver]

I am about to begin tech training, and I needed to know a little bit of info about a bc setup. I am planning on purchasing the Dive Rite steel back plate and harness, but I can't decide on the wings. I will currently be using my bc with al 80 doubles, but in the future I would like to do some cave diving with pressed steel 104s and some decompression bottles. Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s? Thanks for your help! (And be nice to me, this is my first post!)


OMS 60# wings (no bungy) and a dry suit.( redundancy)

[MechDiver]

As Wendy said, the Super Wings are too big for anything, and there are much better alternatives. You might want to search here for many posts on this subject.

Have you discussed this with your tech instructor?

MD

[Hyper-limits]

The Dive-rite Classic wing, OMS 60 lbs (Non-banded) and Halcyon 55lbs Explorer wing are all you ever need to dive with steel 104s. A SS backplate and Harness are the best way to go for any kind of technical diving. Welcome to the ScubaBoard.

[decoeric]

I am about to begin tech training, and I needed to know a little bit of info about a bc setup. I am planning on purchasing the Dive Rite steel back plate and harness, but I can't decide on the wings. I will currently be using my bc with al 80 doubles, but in the future I would like to do some cave diving with pressed steel 104s and some decompression bottles. Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s? Thanks for your help! (And be nice to me, this is my first post!)
In my opinion having a little more lift than you might need right now is very beneficial. I have dual bladder OMS 100lb cells. As your tanks get bigger and you carry more gear, you will want bigger air cells, trust me... Better to buy a little more now even though you may never need it, then to buy less and than buy again somewhere do the road. Super wings are great and the Transpac is an excellent harness. SS is the way to go, but give the wings a serious look and plan for your future diving just a bit...

[Dan Gibson]

What's wrong with an aluminum plate with 104s? I think you will find it better suited for those tanks.


The Dive-rite Classic wing, OMS 60 lbs (Non-banded) and Halcyon 55lbs Explorer wing are all you ever need to dive with steel 104s. A SS backplate and Harness are the best way to go for any kind of technical diving. Welcome to the ScubaBoard.

[decoeric]

What's wrong with an aluminum plate with 104s? I think you will find it better suited for those tanks.
Stainless you can take some weight off of your belt, which is nice... 104's are going to be pretty heavy and the SS pack will feel in my opinion much more solid. I have a SS BP and love it, it just feels more solid to me.. Just my 2 cents.

[MechDiver]

I have dual bladder OMS 100lb cells. As your tanks get bigger and you carry more gear, you will want bigger air cells, trust me...

There is no need for one 100 lb wing for 104/130 tanks, let along duals.
Everyone I know dives those tanks, including deco bottles, with 50-55 lb wings.

MD

[MechDiver]

Stainless you can take some weight off of your belt, which is nice... 104's are going to be pretty heavy and the SS pack will feel in my opinion much more solid. I have a SS BP and love it, it just feels more solid to me.. Just my 2 cents.

If you're diving 104s, you've already got the weight off your belt. Some people would be overweighted with a SS bp with those tanks, so an alum bp is a valid and good option.
There is also no difference in "solid" between alum and SS. If that alum bp is flexing on you, you have much bigger things to worry about.

MD

[decoeric]

There is no need for one 100 lb wing for 104/130 tanks, let along duals.
Everyone I know dives those tanks, including deco bottles, with 50-55 lb wings.

MD
130's with a 55lb wing??? Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit. To me it seems like a bad plan. Dive Rite recommends at minimum Classic wings with 59lb of lift for "heavy" doubles. Like I said a little more lift is always a better plan, especially if you do any diving that have a surface swim involved the more lift on your back will get your head out of the water better for those swims. Also the SS back plate with possibly a tank weight of some kind and ankle weights would most likely reverse the need to carry a weight belt at all. Which is very nice. When it comes right down to it you are going to buy what you think is best. Everyone in the Tech community is going to tell you something different. Case in point here. Best advice I got was buy the best you can afford, but a little more than you might need now when planning for future tech dives... Have fun.

[MechDiver]

130's with a 55lb wing??? Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit. .

I would suggest you bone up on in-water buoyancy and displacement, as you obviously have some, err, misconceptions on what constitutes negative buoyancy and what it takes to overcome it (lift). You also might want to do a search here on wing size and similiar terms.

I dive LP-95s (weigh about the same as E8-130s), SS bp, can light, two alum 40s and one alum 13. My 55lb Explorer is not fully inflated on the surface with no air in my ds.

MD

[The Fresh Prince]

I would suggest you bone up on in-water buoyancy and displacement, as you obviously have some, err, misconceptions on what constitutes negative buoyancy and what it takes to overcome it (lift). You also might want to do a search here on wing size and similiar terms.

I dive LP-95s (weigh about the same as E8-130s), SS bp, can light, two alum 40s and one alum 13. My 55lb Explorer is not fully inflated on the surface with no air in my ds.

MD
Really. I don't know how he got into technical diving not knowing this. Wonder who his TDI instructor was? :06:

[decoeric]

I would suggest you bone up on in-water buoyancy and displacement, as you obviously have some, err, misconceptions on what constitutes negative buoyancy and what it takes to overcome it (lift). You also might want to do a search here on wing size and similiar terms.

I dive LP-95s (weigh about the same as E8-130s), SS bp, can light, two alum 40s and one alum 13. My 55lb Explorer is not fully inflated on the surface with no air in my ds.

MD
Sounds like you are the expert... I can only comment on my gear set-up and what I have found to be helpful...

[MechDiver]

Sounds like you are the expert... I can only comment on my gear set-up and what I have found to be helpful...

No, not an expert. I can, however, on a good day, tell the difference in buoyancy between air and water.

MD

[MechDiver]

Really. I don't know how he got into technical diving

Just because someone is in the forest doesn't make them one of the trees :)

[The Fresh Prince]

Just because someone is in the forest doesn't make them one of the trees :)
LOL, but if he falls, will he make a sound????

[decoeric]

Just because someone is in the forest doesn't make them one of the trees :)
“There is no need for one 100 lb wing for 104/130 tanks, let alone duals” - Maybe IANTD doesn't teach this but the first rule of thumb of tech diving is redundancy. 2 lights, Primary Regs, back up Regs, knife, back up knife, dual bladder air cell, I think you’re starting to get the picture. You guys can make fun of me all you want, I know my diving. I have done many, many deco dives beyond 180'. I have 400+ logged dives, 80% are deep dives beyond 130’. All of them safely. I have done TDI training with John Avery and John Clifton with Scuba Center here in the Twin Cities. Like I said in an earlier post, I can only comment on what works best for me and give my 2 cents to a new diver that ultimately he is going to make his own decision. This is the problem with the tech diving community; there is a ton of arrogance. “I don't know how he got into technical diving not knowing this. Wonder who his TDI instructor was?” For people in this thread to ask how I got into technical diving is a little below the belt and not called for. And in a sense for them to suggest that I am not qualified because I am suggesting to a newer diver that maybe more might be a little better? Or that I don't understand in water or out of water buoyancy. All I know is when you are carrying 150 plus pounds of gear, your BC better be able to handle that kind of load. You load all of your stuff on top of your 55lb wings, your full dual 130's or 95's, your 2 full 40's, your full 13 and your light, all of your regs, reels, lift bags, make sure that you put the lead in the jacket and fill those wings and tell me if they float, because they won't. Put your body in that jacket and it may float but I bet you will have your reg in your mouth. Because you are riding so low in the water. Most of the diving that I do requires a short surface swim, so I like having more lift to get my head further out of the water so I do not need to waste air at the surface. I started with a dive rite transpac with classic wings and as I started to carry more junk, I found that it was harder to stay higher in the water during surface swims. Underwater sure the wings worked fine. But all in all I am glad that I made the switch to a OMS harness with SS BP and bigger wings.

[WJL]

All I know is when you are carrying 150 plus pounds of gear, your BC better be able to handle that kind of load. You load all of your stuff on top of your 55lb wings, your full dual 130's or 95's, your 2 full 40's, your full 13 and your light, all of your regs, reels, lift bags, make sure that you put the lead in the jacket and fill those wings and tell me if they float, because they won't. What jacket are you talking about? I thought you were diving a wing?

My 55# wing floats me just fine at the surface with dual 104s, AL backplate, can light, reel, lift bag, etc., even when I'm carrying a stage bottle, with no gas in my drysuit. Everybody I dive with has the same setup, in fact most of them dive multiple stage bottles, deco bottles and scooters, and none of them has any problem floating comfortably at the surface, even in considerable chop. You really don't need 100# of lift in your wing, especially at the surface.


Put your body in that jacket and it may float but I bet you will have your reg in your mouth. Because you are riding so low in the water. Most of the diving that I do requires a short surface swim, so I like having more lift to get my head further out of the water so I do not need to waste air at the surface. Shouldn't the priority be on efficiency under the water, rather than turning yourself into a raft on the surface?

[MechDiver]

I know my diving. I have done many, many deco dives beyond 180'. I have 400+ logged dives, 80% are deep dives beyond 130’. All of them safely. I have done TDI training with John Avery and John Clifton with Scuba Center here in the Twin Cities.

Well geez, that makes all the difference bud. I had no idea I was in the presence of greatness. I have a special place I keep special divers like you...

[MechDiver]

LOL, but if he falls, will he make a sound????

Naw. The 500 lb lift bag he has as a DSMB will cushion his fall.

[novadiver]

“There is no need for one 100 lb wing for 104/130 tanks, let alone duals” - Maybe IANTD doesn't teach this but the first rule of thumb of tech diving is redundancy. 2 lights, Primary Regs, back up Regs, knife, back up knife, dual bladder air cell, I think you’re starting to get the picture. You guys can make fun of me all you want, I know my diving. I have done many, many deco dives beyond 180'. I have 400+ logged dives, 80% are deep dives beyond 130’. All of them safely. I have done TDI training with John Avery and John Clifton with Scuba Center here in the Twin Cities. Like I said in an earlier post, I can only comment on what works best for me and give my 2 cents to a new diver that ultimately he is going to make his own decision. This is the problem with the tech diving community; there is a ton of arrogance. “I don't know how he got into technical diving not knowing this. Wonder who his TDI instructor was?” For people in this thread to ask how I got into technical diving is a little below the belt and not called for. And in a sense for them to suggest that I am not qualified because I am suggesting to a newer diver that maybe more might be a little better? Or that I don't understand in water or out of water buoyancy. All I know is when you are carrying 150 plus pounds of gear, your BC better be able to handle that kind of load. You load all of your stuff on top of your 55lb wings, your full dual 130's or 95's, your 2 full 40's, your full 13 and your light, all of your regs, reels, lift bags, make sure that you put the lead in the jacket and fill those wings and tell me if they float, because they won't. Put your body in that jacket and it may float but I bet you will have your reg in your mouth. Because you are riding so low in the water. Most of the diving that I do requires a short surface swim, so I like having more lift to get my head further out of the water so I do not need to waste air at the surface. I started with a dive rite transpac with classic wings and as I started to carry more junk, I found that it was harder to stay higher in the water during surface swims. Underwater sure the wings worked fine. But all in all I am glad that I made the switch to a OMS harness with SS BP and bigger wings.

You may know your diving, but your new here. So in the future remember, there is a lot of ekorts divers that love to flame the new members. that's what happens when you dive with a keyboard instead of a reg. Don't let them bring you down.

[headhunter]

130's with a 55lb wing??? Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit. To me it seems like a bad plan. Dive Rite recommends at minimum Classic wings with 59lb of lift for "heavy" doubles. Like I said a little more lift is always a better plan, especially if you do any diving that have a surface swim involved the more lift on your back will get your head out of the water better for those swims. Also the SS back plate with possibly a tank weight of some kind and ankle weights would most likely reverse the need to carry a weight belt at all. Which is very nice. When it comes right down to it you are going to buy what you think is best. Everyone in the Tech community is going to tell you something different. Case in point here. Best advice I got was buy the best you can afford, but a little more than you might need now when planning for future tech dives... Have fun.
decoeric,

I mean the following in the nicest way possible.

You calculated wrong. I'm sure you know this, but just made a mistake when you quickly did your calculations. You'll see what I mean through my over simplified example using only some of the items that could make up your rig.

The following info about tanks is straight from the PST brochure that I have in front of me.

An pair of E8-130s without hardware and manifold weigh 86 lbs. and are negatively bouyant by 21 lbs. full and 2 lbs. empty

So, even though your tanks DO weigh 86 lbs. when you carry them around on dry land, they only need 21 lbs of lift when full to make them float.

I'm not sure about the Transpac II, but a typical SS backplate would weigh roughly 6 lbs. and would be negatively bouyant by roughly 6 lbs. So you'd need roughly 6 lbs. of lift to make the backplate float.

If you used 2 PST LP-45s as stage bottles, they would weigh 38 lbs. and are negatively bouyant by 7.4 lbs full and 1 lb empty. So you'd need 7.4 lbs. to make your stage bottles float.

So, only counting the items mentioned above with full tanks you would only need 34.4 lbs of lift to make them float even though the items actually weigh 130 lbs.

Obviously, you would make these calculations with your entire rig, but as you can see, so far you are only up to around a 35 pound wing. This doesn't take into account your exposure suit, your light can or anything else, but I think you see that it's going to take a lot more gear to "need" the 100 lbs of lift you are talking about.

I believe that this is what all the hoopla is about here.

Hope this helps.

Christian

[The Fresh Prince]

You may know your diving, but your new here. So in the future remember, there is a lot of ekorts divers that love to flame the new members. that's what happens when you dive with a keyboard instead of a reg. Don't let them bring you down.
Nova, how the heck are you? Long time.... anyway, this was not a flame. Whenever you see something that doesn't jibe, don't you question it?(like 196 times) When DE averred that a 55# lift wing couldn't float " all the gear " he carries, he was called on it. And yes, if he is in technical diving, he should know the lift required for his gear, in water. (which is where we presume he is diving all these deep dives). And if he didn't know this after his deco training qualifying him to 160 ft., then I would have questions of his instructor.

[novadiver]

decoeric,

I mean the following in the nicest way possible.

You calculated wrong. I'm sure you know this, but just made a mistake when you quickly did your calculations. You'll see what I mean through my over simplified example using only some of the items that could make up your rig.

The following info about tanks is straight from the PST brochure that I have in front of me.

An pair of E8-130s without hardware and manifold weigh 86 lbs. and are negatively bouyant by 21 lbs. full and 2 lbs. empty

So, even though your tanks DO weigh 86 lbs. when you carry them around on dry land, they only need 21 lbs of lift when full to make them float.

I'm not sure about the Transpac II, but a typical SS backplate would weigh roughly 6 lbs. and would be negatively bouyant by roughly 6 lbs. So you'd need roughly 6 lbs. of lift to make the backplate float.

If you used 2 PST LP-45s as stage bottles, they would weigh 38 lbs. and are negatively bouyant by 7.4 lbs full and 1 lb empty. So you'd need 7.4 lbs. to make your stage bottles float.

So, only counting the items mentioned above with full tanks you would only need 34.4 lbs of lift to make them float even though the items actually weigh 130 lbs.

Obviously, you would make these calculations with your entire rig, but as you can see, so far you are only up to around a 35 pound wing. This doesn't take into account your exposure suit, your light can or anything else, but I think you see that it's going to take a lot more gear to "need" the 100 lbs of lift you are talking about.

I believe that this is what all the hoopla is about here.

Hope this helps.

Christian
Headhunter, good calcs , but if I'm not mistaken that 34 lbs at 6 ata would require much more lift to become neutral. those wings were designed for heavy doubles at depth. One of the reasons that recreational divers die in deep water is that their bcd does not have enough lift to compensate for the depth that they try to come up from.

[novadiver]

Nova, how the heck are you? Long time.... anyway, this was not a flame. Whenever you see something that doesn't jibe, don't you question it?(like 196 times) When DE averred that a 55# lift wing couldn't float " all the gear " he carries, he was called on it. And yes, if he is in technical diving, he should know the lift required for his gear, in water. (which is where we presume he is diving all these deep dives). And if he didn't know this after his deco training qualifying him to 160 ft., then I would have questions of his instructor.


JJsteffen ? I read the posts and I think this guy ment well. He's new hear and it takes time to figure out who the trouble makers are. :)

I hope you read my post on the correct use of 100lb wings.

P.S Hope all is well with you.( new attitude )

[headhunter]

Headhunter, good calcs , but if I'm not mistaken that 34 lbs at 6 ata would require much more lift to become neutral. those wings were designed for heavy doubles at depth. One of the reasons that recreational divers die in deep water is that their bcd does not have enough lift to compensate for the depth that they try to come up from.
I may not be thinking this through properly at the moment, but in my example with those pieces of equipment, I don't think that depth should increase the need for lift.

A tank or a backplate won't have "compressed air spaces" like a wetsuit, so it should not require more lift at depth.

Am I missing something here?

Maybe I've been staring at this computer screen too long today. So, I'm going to go out for a little moutain biking right now to clear the pixels from my brain. I guess I'll be trading the pixels for some dirt. THAT ought to help me think better! :11:

Somebody straighten out my thinking here while I'm out "shakin' up my bones". :crafty:

Christian

[novadiver]

I may not be thinking this through properly at the moment, but in my example with those pieces of equipment, I don't think that depth should increase the need for lift.

A tank or a backplate won't have "compressed air spaces" like a wetsuit, so it should not require more lift at depth.

Am I missing something here?

Maybe I've been staring at this computer screen too long today. So, I'm going to go out for a little moutain biking right now to clear the pixels from my brain. I guess I'll be trading the pixels for some dirt. THAT ought to help me think better! :11:

Somebody straighten out my thinking here while I'm out "shakin' up my bones". :crafty:

Christian

At 6 ata (6 x 33=198 ) ( 198 - 33=165 fsw) ( 6 x 14.7= 88.2 lbs psi) that's a whole lot of water pushing down . now lets take into account that the air in the bladder is now 1/6 the volume it was on the surface, and my guess would be - the diver needs more lift to stay neutral.

I could be wrong,but that doesn't happen often :)

[Dan Gibson]

You need to think displacement. Depth won't make a difference. The weight of water near the surface is the same as at depth when you consider that water is incompressible (for all practical purposes). It takes the same displaced volume to provide the same amount of lift at any depth. It the amount of air needed to fill that volume that changes.

My 104s load to 2700 psi with an aluminum backplate weights 30# in the water. This doesn't change with depth. 100 # bladders are not necessary.

The minimum required lift should be that required to float your rig without you in it.


At 6 ata (6 x 33=198 ) ( 198 - 33=165 fsw) ( 6 x 14.7= 88.2 lbs psi) that's a whole lot of water pushing down . now lets take into account that the air in the bladder is now 1/6 the volume it was on the surface, and my guess would be - the diver needs more lift to stay neutral.

I could be wrong,but that doesn't happen often :)

[Dan Gibson]

SS plates will make you so top heavy that you will be fighting your trim. The AL plate is better for 104s.

My AL plate is very sturdy. I would bet the bolt on the bands would break before it would/


Stainless you can take some weight off of your belt, which is nice... 104's are going to be pretty heavy and the SS pack will feel in my opinion much more solid. I have a SS BP and love it, it just feels more solid to me.. Just my 2 cents.

[jagfish]

I could be wrong,but that doesn't happen often :)

I think this might be one of those times...

At 6ATA, the air inside the bladder is also at 6ATA. If you fill it up at that depth, it will fully inflate and a bag rated at 55 lbs of at or near the surface will also have the same lift if fully inflated at depth by my reconing.

Maybe you were confusing teh fact that someone who is marginally bouyant (or even slightly negative) at the surface with a thick wetsuit could become dangerously heavy at depth when the suit compresses.

[novadiver]

I think this might be one of those times...

At 6ATA, the air inside the bladder is also at 6ATA. If you fill it up at that depth, it will fully inflate and a bag rated at 55 lbs of at or near the surface will also have the same lift if fully inflated at depth by my reconing.

Maybe you were confusing teh fact that someone who is marginally bouyant (or even slightly negative) at the surface with a thick wetsuit could become dangerously heavy at depth when the suit compresses.

air compresses at depth. that compressed air now weighs more. ( just like a full tank weighs more than a empty tank) and there is less volume.

lets ask this question? is the 100 lb rating of the wing, rated to hold 100 lbs at the surface or at depth? Because the max volume is still the same. It's the volume under presure that changes. have you ever taken a tennis ball to 100 feet, It will be crushed yet return to normal at the surface.

[-hh]

At 6 ata (6 x 33=198 ) ( 198 - 33=165 fsw) ( 6 x 14.7= 88.2 lbs psi) that's a whole lot of water pushing down . now lets take into account that the air in the bladder is now 1/6 the volume it was on the surface, and my guess would be - the diver needs more lift to stay neutral.

I could be wrong,but that doesn't happen often :)

I think its in how you're trying to phrase your answer: yes, if we descend, the air in a BC will produce less lift if we don't add more air to a BC as it compressed with depth...but that's because the air occupies less volume, not because water becomes denser with depth.

IMO, the intended question was to ask if a BC that produces "55lbs" of lift when full at the surface, will or will not continue to provide "55lbs" of lift when full at some depth?

First, we know that 1 cubic foot of seawater's roughly 64lbs (mass), and while water isn't technically incompressible, its close enough to for us to ignore depth as a factor here.

Next, we know that a "55 lb" wing basically means that it displaces 55lbs worth of water, or 55/64ths of a cubic foot of seawater.

Since we use air to displace the water, we have to take into account the mass of the air being used. 1 cubic foot of air @ STP weighs ~0.081 lbs, so technically a "55lb" wing would need to actually displace 55.081lbs of water (55.081 - 0.081 = 55.000 lbs) at the surface in order to account for the mass of the air.

If we now take this "55.081lb" BC down to 6 ATM, it takes roughly ~6x more air mass to fill it because we're at 6x the pressure. So instead of needing 0.081lbs of air, we need 6x that: ~0.486 lbs.

And the 55.081 lb BC @ 1 ATM would provide (55.081 - 0.486 =) ~54.6 lbs of lift @ 6 ATM.

This is roughly a half pound reduction in lift: a ~1% reduction. We should be able to ignore this decrease because we would have built in a larger safety margin than this...plus many BC manufacturers' actual lift capabilities don't match their claimed performace this closely to begin with.

So the answer is that its close enough to being unchanged to consider it unchanged. The bigger question IMO is to verify that a BC actually provides the amount of lift that the manufacturer claims.


-hh

[cool_hardware52]

The bigger question IMO is to verify that a BC actually provides the amount of lift that the manufacturer claims.


-hh

hh, good point, many claims are off. It is also important to consider if the wing can inflate fully as used. In other words rigged as you intended to use it, positioned on the plate, and with the tank or tanks secured is the wing constrained from inflating fully? Often this is the case. If you want to test just rig up your unit, and fill the wing with water. Remove the wing and weight it full and empty. Might be surprised.

Another point to consider is water in the BC. As you vent, or orally inflate, water enters the bladder, this further reduces the available lift.



Regards,




Tobin

[novadiver]

I think its in how you're trying to phrase your answer: yes, if we descend, the air in a BC will produce less lift if we don't add more air to a BC as it compressed with depth...but that's because the air occupies less volume, not because water becomes denser with depth.

IMO, the intended question was to ask if a BC that produces "55lbs" of lift when full at the surface, will or will not continue to provide "55lbs" of lift when full at some depth?

First, we know that 1 cubic foot of seawater's roughly 64lbs (mass), and while water isn't technically incompressible, its close enough to for us to ignore depth as a factor here.

Next, we know that a "55 lb" wing basically means that it displaces 55lbs worth of water, or 55/64ths of a cubic foot of seawater.

Since we use air to displace the water, we have to take into account the mass of the air being used. 1 cubic foot of air @ STP weighs ~0.081 lbs, so technically a "55lb" wing would need to actually displace 55.081lbs of water (55.081 - 0.081 = 55.000 lbs) at the surface in order to account for the mass of the air.

If we now take this "55.081lb" BC down to 6 ATM, it takes roughly ~6x more air mass to fill it because we're at 6x the pressure. So instead of needing 0.081lbs of air, we need 6x that: ~0.486 lbs.

And the 55.081 lb BC @ 1 ATM would provide (55.081 - 0.486 =) ~54.6 lbs of lift @ 6 ATM.

This is roughly a half pound reduction in lift: a ~1% reduction. We should be able to ignore this decrease because we would have built in a larger safety margin than this...plus many BC manufacturers' actual lift capabilities don't match their claimed performace this closely to begin with.

So the answer is that its close enough to being unchanged to consider it unchanged. The bigger question IMO is to verify that a BC actually provides the amount of lift that the manufacturer claims.


-hh
the 100 lb wing is rated for heavy doubles. I don't own one, ( mine are 60 lb oms)but I see alot of divers with them, there must be something they can be used for?

[decoeric]

Well geez, that makes all the difference bud. I had no idea I was in the presence of greatness. I have a special place I keep special divers like you...
And what place would that be?

[headhunter]

At 6 ata (6 x 33=198 ) ( 198 - 33=165 fsw) ( 6 x 14.7= 88.2 lbs psi) that's a whole lot of water pushing down . now lets take into account that the air in the bladder is now 1/6 the volume it was on the surface, and my guess would be - the diver needs more lift to stay neutral.

I could be wrong,but that doesn't happen often :)
OK, I'm back from my jaunt.

I see what you're saying, but it would not make a difference.

The air in a tank does not become heavier under pressure. When you fill a tank at surface, it becomes heavier because you squeeze more air into the same amount of space.

For instance, if you have a 100 cu ft tank, that means that you are taking the amount of air that uncompressed would fill a room that contains 100 cu ft. and squeezing that air into a space the size of your tank. The "amount" of air would weigh the same, since it is still 100 cu ft. However, it would displace a different amount of space. By the way, that would be a pretty small room! The floor would be 2 ft x 5 ft and it would have a 10 ft ceiling! ;)

So, when your tank is full, the air that is in it weighs the same amount no matter what depth it sits at. The tanks bouyancy would be the same at depth because the tank is rigid and does not change like a balloon would. If that same air were in a balloon, the air would still weight the same amount, but would displace less space in the water and therefore be less bouyant.

I hope that made sense.

Christian

[msandler]

55lbs of lift (unsure of the exact volume of salt water displaced when full) will do the job 90% of the time and becomes insufficient as follows (speaking from experience):

With double 120's on a SS plate and a pair of 40's (all tanks at 3500psi), wearing a 3mm, and no weight, carrying lights, reels yada yada yada, I "smart bombed" the Sucre (215' in under 2min.) I avoided the sand by inches when I neutralized my bouyancy. I reached behind to feel the wing, it was full (probably a few shots shy of dumping air).

Very entertaining thread :)

[eastcoastdiver]

I am about to begin tech training, and I needed to know a little bit of info about a bc setup. I am planning on purchasing the Dive Rite steel back plate and harness, but I can't decide on the wings. I will currently be using my bc with al 80 doubles, but in the future I would like to do some cave diving with pressed steel 104s and some decompression bottles. Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s? Thanks for your help! (And be nice to me, this is my first post!)

Dive Rite's recommended air cell for double al80's is the Trek wing. It has 40 lbs of lift.

For double lp 104's they recommend the Rec wing 51 lbs or the classic wing 59 lbs.

The super wing has 77 lbs of lift and is recommended for double lp 120's lp 131's.

[decoeric]

55lbs of lift (unsure of the exact volume of salt water displaced when full) will do the job 90% of the time and becomes insufficient as follows (speaking from experience):

With double 120's on a SS plate and a pair of 40's (all tanks at 3500psi), wearing a 3mm, and no weight, carrying lights, reels yada yada yada, I "smart bombed" the Sucre (215' in under 2min.) I avoided the sand by inches when I neutralized my bouyancy. I reached behind to feel the wing, it was full (probably a few shots shy of dumping air).

Very entertaining thread :)


Speak for yourself about entertaining... I have gotten kicked around pretty good.... Oh well live and learn... I remember now why I don't like message boards...

[jagfish]

air compresses at depth. that compressed air now weighs more. ( just like a full tank weighs more than a empty tank) and there is less volume.
While your point that the air needed to fill the wing would weigh more at depth is technically true, the extra weight of the air compressed to 6ATA would be negligible as one poster has already pointed out.


have you ever taken a tennis ball to 100 feet, It will be crushed yet return to normal at the surface.
This last point really has no relevence to the discussion that I can fathom. A tennis ball cannot be refilled at depth back to original capacity while a wing can...Unless you are just trying to illustrate that air is denser at depth, which as above, is true. However, once again, the weight of 2 or 3 gallons of 1ATA air and 6ATA air is not significant in this case...

[The Kraken]

Unless the wing generates an unacceptable wrapping situation what does it matter that he dives a 100# lift bladder?

[jagfish]

Unless the wing generates an unacceptable wrapping situation what does it matter that he dives a 100# lift bladder?

I'm inclined to agree Krack,
However, the issue here at the moment was not whether the 100 has too much lift, but whether the 55 has enough...

[novadiver]

I'm inclined to agree Krack,
However, the issue here at the moment was not whether the 100 has too much lift, but whether the 55 has enough...


I beleave the question was about entry level tech diving. I think that in entry level that the 60# wings would be more than enough. If there is the need to take multible deco bottles and a scooter , than the 60# wing would fall short of the lift needed to bring a dead scooter and all the bottles to the surface. Not to mention a dive buddy with a ripped drysuit and damaged wings.THen even the 100# wings might not be enough

[The Kraken]

Good point, Nova . . .
If one follows the concept of being totally redundant, then it would follow that the lift capacity of one's bladder should be sufficient to support not just one, but two divers at the surface.

[msandler]

I beleave the question was about entry level tech diving. I think that in entry level that the 60# wings would be more than enough. If there is the need to take multible deco bottles and a scooter , than the 60# wing would fall short of the lift needed to bring a dead scooter and all the bottles to the surface. Not to mention a dive buddy with a ripped drysuit and damaged wings.THen even the 100# wings might not be enough

ripped suit and damaged wings - not likely but I guess that's risk management for some. I would not be worried about the scoot and other items (lights, stages, etc.) that can be sacrificed for bouyancy in an emergency either collectively as a team or individually.

[novadiver]

ripped suit and damaged wings - not likely but I guess that's risk management for some. I would not be worried about the scoot and other items (lights, stages, etc.) that can be sacrificed for bouyancy in an emergency either collectively as a team or individually.


True, but those full deco bottles are coming up.

[MechDiver]

At 6 ata (6 x 33=198 ) ( 198 - 33=165 fsw) ( 6 x 14.7= 88.2 lbs psi) that's a whole lot of water pushing down . now lets take into account that the air in the bladder is now 1/6 the volume it was on the surface, and my guess would be - the diver needs more lift to stay neutral.

Egad! Where do you people get your training :confused:

Depth makes no difference on rigid objects. That's OW class material.
Egad.


I could be wrong,but that doesn't happen often :)

Yea, right.

[decoeric]

Egad! Where do you people get your training :confused:

Depth makes no difference on rigid objects. That's OW class material.
Egad.



Yea, right.
I would not say that wings would be a rigid object...

[bwerb]

Phil...step away from the keyboard...:D

...why not get the biggest wings money can buy...huge...massive flapping wings...then if the laws of physics change, you'll be sure to have more redundancy than you'll know what to do with.

(sarcasm mode-off)

Stepping back to the beginning...something in the 55lb "range" should serve your needs adequately...part of the fun of being a diver is new gear...if you need a larger wing down the road...hey you get to have fun buying more! Or...another alternate suggestion would be to look at the larger Oxycheq wings which appear to have a very similar silhouette compaired to the smaller Oxycheq wings due to their expansion panels...just a thought.

[DEEPLOU]

Unless the wing generates an unacceptable wrapping situation what does it matter that he dives a 100# lift bladder?

Agree here also. That's the differrence between the Dive Rite and the 100lb OMS w/bungies.
The big Dive Rite will "Taco" a single tank. The bungies don't have significant problem w/ wrapping like this.

Maybe I made a mistake back when I first moved up to doubles w/ 100lb wing.
In NE w/ dry suit or thick wet suit, & dbl LP 112s could probably get by w/ 50-60 lb lift. Maybe even less. dry suit/7mm wet give their own bouyancy. (unless catistrophic dry suit failure)
In south w/rental AL tanks and 3 mm wet suit, could almost get away with 10 lb of lift (exaggerating)
In south w/my double LP 112s and 3 mm wet suit, need much more lift , maybe not the 100lbs,
but I am not ready to buy another wing at the moment.
IMHO too much lift can hurt, too little could be deadly

[jagfish]

In south w/my double LP 112s and 3 mm wet suit, need much more lift , maybe not the 100lbs,
but I am not ready to buy another wing at the moment.
IMHO too much lift can hurt, too little could be deadly

I guess this is one important factor in this discussion. Many sources recommend a drysuit when diving double steels...for the redundant/supplemental lift.

[headhunter]

I would not say that wings would be a rigid object...
I think MechDiver is referring to the tank in my example and not the "bladder" Novadiver talks about in the quote.

Christian

[Dan Gibson]

Go ahead and figure how many stage and deco bottles you need. I can tell you, it won't add up to needing that much lift. If you have that many bottles, you will need to be diving high helium mixes so they are near nuetral from the start or those will cause so much drag it won't be funny. The scooter will be close to nuetral if it is weighted properly.

Go look at the guys that carry the most equipment on a dive. That would likely be WKPP divers. They use 55# wings with way more than you are I would ever care to take with us.

I have to wonder when people mention the ripped drysuit. It won't cause you to become extremely negative if you have the right undergarments and use the proper amount of gas in the suit. Thinsulate is hydrophobic. It will provide space for gas to trap in your suit water will not fill that void. Just try putting sinking thinsulate. The shell suit won't loose any buoyancy. You may loose some buoyancy if you count the lost gas that is in excess of what you really need. Again, you don't need a lot of gas in the suit. Just take the squeeze off to the point where you keep the loft of the undergarments to where they were on the surface. I have flooded my suits at depth before and there is no casastrophic loss in buoyancy.

If you completey loose buoyancy of the wing, start getting rid of droppable items. If you are properly weighted, you will be able to swim yourself up, no problem.

This whole idea of needing maximum lift is nothing more than a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.


I beleave the question was about entry level tech diving. I think that in entry level that the 60# wings would be more than enough. If there is the need to take multible deco bottles and a scooter , than the 60# wing would fall short of the lift needed to bring a dead scooter and all the bottles to the surface. Not to mention a dive buddy with a ripped drysuit and damaged wings.THen even the 100# wings might not be enough

[novadiver]

Go ahead and figure how many stage and deco bottles you need. I can tell you, it won't add up to needing that much lift. If you have that many bottles, you will need to be diving high helium mixes so they are near nuetral from the start or those will cause so much drag it won't be funny. The scooter will be close to nuetral if it is weighted properly.

Go look at the guys that carry the most equipment on a dive. That would likely be WKPP divers. They use 55# wings with way more than you are I would ever care to take with us.

I have to wonder when people mention the ripped drysuit. It won't cause you to become extremely negative if you have the right undergarments and use the proper amount of gas in the suit. Thinsulate is hydrophobic. It will provide space for gas to trap in your suit water will not fill that void. Just try putting sinking thinsulate. The shell suit won't loose any buoyancy. You may loose some buoyancy if you count the lost gas that is in excess of what you really need. Again, you don't need a lot of gas in the suit. Just take the squeeze off to the point where you keep the loft of the undergarments to where they were on the surface. I have flooded my suits at depth before and there is no casastrophic loss in buoyancy.

If you completey loose buoyancy of the wing, start getting rid of droppable items. If you are properly weighted, you will be able to swim yourself up, no problem.

This whole idea of needing maximum lift is nothing more than a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.


Well it must be true , because Dan G said it. I don't know why they even make the 100# wing? They should have talked to Dan first. Now everything is clear?

[WJL]

Well it must be true , because Dan G said it. I don't know why they even make the 100# wing? They should have talked to Dan first. Now everything is clear?Sometimes, and I admit its rare in the scuba industry, manufacturers make things that aren't needed, and try to convince people to buy them.

[Dan Gibson]

Why does the dive indutry do a lot of dumb things?

Show me your calculations. I mean correct calculations. It's not my problem you don't quite understand the physics behind this thread.

If you think about your replies before you post them, you may save yourself some embarrasement.



Well it must be true , because Dan G said it. I don't know why they even make the 100# wing? They should have talked to Dan first. Now everything is clear?

[MechDiver]

Phil...step away from the keyboard...:D



:grumble:

[MechDiver]

you may save yourself some embarrasement.

I think that point came and went a long time ago.

UP, please put this thread out of everyone's misery...

[novadiver]

Why does the dive indutry do a lot of dumb things?

Show me your calculations. I mean correct calculations. It's not my problem you don't quite understand the physics behind this thread.

If you think about your replies before you post them, you may save yourself some embarrasement.


The famous Dan Gibson everybody!! Please give Dan a hand!!

:CHEER::CHEER::CLAP::CLAP::CHEER::CHEER:


Don't forget to tip your waiters and waitresses!!!

How about an encore Dan. This time don't sugar coat it, tell use how you really feel. :)

[JeffG]

The famous Dan Gibson everybody!! Please give Dan a hand!!

:cheer: :cheer::clap: :clap: :cheer::cheer:


Don't forget to tip your waiters and waitresses!!!

How about an encore Dan. This time don't sugar coat it, tell use how you really feel. :)
Your just making it worse. Don't post and maybe the thread will disappear.

[bwerb]

Hmm...novadiver...hmm...definition "no va"...meaning "doesn't go" in Spanish...so...translation = doesn't go diving...now I'm clear.

(seriously novadiver...I'm just having some fun, no harm intended, I know you actually dive regularly).

But, the whole 100lb lift thing...is totally overkill unless you are diving with all steels and a wetsuit (and subscribe to the bigger is better mentality).

[novadiver]

Why does the dive indutry do a lot of dumb things?

Show me your calculations. I mean correct calculations. It's not my problem you don't quite understand the physics behind this thread.

If you think about your replies before you post them, you may save yourself some embarrasement.

Forget the correct calcs , nobody would agree anyway. lets use ZHL 16C. Lets say you want to dive to 150 fsw for 40 min. but your in a third world country that doesn't have HE.or O2 ,so you have to dive AIR.

Well look at that. looks like I need 409 cf of gas . that's four tanks. OH DAMN it looks like I'm 80# negitive buoyancy just with tanks. I sure wish I would have brought those super wings now. I'll just sit in the tiki bar with Dan and listen to his stories of greatness. Now I'm embarrased :)

[MechDiver]

Well look at that. looks like I need 409 cf of gas . that's four tanks. OH DAMN it looks like I'm 80# negitive buoyancy just with tanks. I sure wish I would have brought those super wings now. I'll just sit in the tiki bar with Dan and listen to his stories of greatness. Now I'm embarrased :)

Ya know dude, people have been nicely trying to tell you that either you are severly math challenged or have some strange ideas on how buoyancy works. Actually, I think they've done a good job in their attempt.

So, I therefore come to the conclusion that you are just stupid. Not ignorant, not poorly trained, just stupid.

[msandler]

Go ahead and figure how many stage and deco bottles you need. I can tell you, it won't add up to needing that much lift. If you have that many bottles, you will need to be diving high helium mixes so they are near nuetral from the start or those will cause so much drag it won't be funny. The scooter will be close to nuetral if it is weighted properly.
High helium mixes eh? How high is that? 50%? Typical numbers are a lot lower and represent the smaller portion of the "total" mix. The compressibility of He is also a factor if you want to split hairs. Either way, 3600 psi of any gas mixture is heavy.


Go look at the guys that carry the most equipment on a dive. That would likely be WKPP divers. They use 55# wings with way more than you are I would ever care to take with us.
Making statments from your own experiences has the added benefit of understanding what you are preaching from a first person perspective. If you can't diversify your diving, at least diversify your reading!


I have to wonder when people mention the ripped drysuit. It won't cause you to become extremely negative if you have the right undergarments and use the proper amount of gas in the suit. Thinsulate is hydrophobic. It will provide space for gas to trap in your suit water will not fill that void. Just try putting sinking thinsulate. The shell suit won't loose any buoyancy. You may loose some buoyancy if you count the lost gas that is in excess of what you really need. Again, you don't need a lot of gas in the suit. Just take the squeeze off to the point where you keep the loft of the undergarments to where they were on the surface. I have flooded my suits at depth before and there is no casastrophic loss in buoyancy.
Actually, depending on where the rip is, you may still have emergency bouyancy. By the way most suit breaches are very tiny and hard to find and thinsulate can hold a surprisinig amount of water. Either way, I think the point is that you can no longer rely on bouyancy from the suit.


If you completey loose buoyancy of the wing, start getting rid of droppable items. If you are properly weighted, you will be able to swim yourself up, no problem.
Spoken like a true armchair diver. Not exactly the "resting" deco one would aspire to. Extra work (stress, air-consumption) if you want to stay off the bottom.


This whole idea of needing maximum lift is nothing more than a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Did you read that too? Maximum is your term. The discussion is about neutral bouyancy not salvage diving.

[novadiver]

Ya know dude, people have been nicely trying to tell you that either you are severly math challenged or have some strange ideas on how buoyancy works. Actually, I think they've done a good job in their attempt.

So, I therefore come to the conclusion that you are just stupid. Not ignorant, not poorly trained, just stupid.


Wow! A EKORTS instuctor calling me stupid on the internet. It's almost like i'm famous. tell me more micdiver.

[headhunter]

Forget the correct calcs , nobody would agree anyway. lets use ZHL 16C. Lets say you want to dive to 150 fsw for 40 min. but your in a third world country that doesn't have HE.or O2 ,so you have to dive AIR.

Well look at that. looks like I need 409 cf of gas . that's four tanks. OH DAMN it looks like I'm 80# negitive buoyancy just with tanks. I sure wish I would have brought those super wings now. I'll just sit in the tiki bar with Dan and listen to his stories of greatness. Now I'm embarrased :)
Nova,

With all due respect. Even if you used 4 E8-130s with 520 cf of air, this would only be negatively buoyant by 42#.

A tiki bar with a Mai Tai and a couple of Hula Dancers does sound like fun though! ;)

Christian

[novadiver]

Nova,

With all due respect. Even if you used 4 E8-130s with 520 cf of air, this would only be negatively buoyant by 42#.

A tiki bar with a Mai Tai and a couple of Hula Dancers does sound like fun though! ;)

Christian

the whole diver, kit and all comes to about negative 80# at the start of the dive. also you might want to add 10# for regs on the 4 E8s

Is the big drink called a hurricane? I'll take two!!!

[simbrooks]

hurricane? I'll take two!!!
Nothing to do with this discussion really, but i'll take three in central FL, thanks. ;)

[WJL]

Nothing to do with this discussion really, but i'll take three in central FL, thanks. ;)And by about Tuesday, you're gonna get it.

[simbrooks]

I'll be waiting by the bar - not diving, whether my wing is large enough or not!! ;)

[headhunter]

And by about Tuesday, you're gonna get it.
OK... Hang on everybody. I'll go find the waitress (and a hula dancing meteorologist). The first round is on me. ;)

Christian

[headhunter]

I am about to begin tech training, and I needed to know a little bit of info about a bc setup. I am planning on purchasing the Dive Rite steel back plate and harness, but I can't decide on the wings. I will currently be using my bc with al 80 doubles, but in the future I would like to do some cave diving with pressed steel 104s and some decompression bottles. Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s? Thanks for your help! (And be nice to me, this is my first post!)
Just in case anyone wanted to remember where this thread got started, I quoted the original post. At least everyone was nice to the original poster as he requested. ;)

I think it's time to close the thread, take a shower to get off all of this mud that was slung around and meet everyone at the bar for Mai Tais, Hurricanes, and hula dancers. I bought the last round, so now it's your turn! :eyebrow:

Christian

[novadiver]

Just in case anyone wanted to remember where this thread got started, I quoted the original post. At least everyone was nice to the original poster as he requested. ;)

I think it's time to close the thread, take a shower to get off all of this mud that was slung around and meet everyone at the bar for Mai Tais, Hurricanes, and hula dancers. I bought the last round, so now it's your turn! :eyebrow:

Christian

Funny how it always starts as a three hour tour. This rounds on me.:)

[decoeric]

Just in case anyone wanted to remember where this thread got started, I quoted the original post. At least everyone was nice to the original poster as he requested. ;)

I think it's time to close the thread, take a shower to get off all of this mud that was slung around and meet everyone at the bar for Mai Tais, Hurricanes, and hula dancers. I bought the last round, so now it's your turn! :eyebrow:

Christian
Just think this entire thing got started because I tired to give a new diver a little advice that I found helpful to me... About getting wings with a little more lift like Dive Rite Super Wings and a SS BP, and I mentioned that I had dual bladder OMS 100lb wings. I know that the GUE DIR nazi's are highly against anything more than 55lb lift non-banded wings. Another incident of the close mindedness of that group of divers. No I am not a math major or an nautical engineer so I can't tell you how displacement effects lift, and no I didn't learn that in OW. Actually after reading through this entire thread, I can believe how many a$$holes there are in the tech community or at least in this thread... So sad... Help your fellow new diver don't rip on other people opinions...

[WJL]

Funny how it always starts as a three hour tour. This rounds on me.:)I'm hanging with Ginger. The rest of you guys go talk to Mary Ann.

[WJL]

Just think this entire thing got started because I tired to give a new diver a little advice that I found helpful to me... About getting wings with a little more lift like Dive Rite Super Wings and a SS BP, and I mentioned that I had dual bladder OMS 100lb wings. I know that the GUE DIR nazi's are highly against anything more than 55lb lift non-banded wings. Another incident of the close mindedness of that group of divers. No I am not a math major or an nautical engineer so I can't tell you how displacement effects lift, and no I didn't learn that in OW. Actually after reading through this entire thread, I can believe how many a$$holes there are in the tech community or at least in this thread... So sad... Help your fellow new diver don't rip on other people opinions...C'mon Eric, that's not very fair. What got things heated up was your assertion that 55 lbs lift in a wing was not enough. For most "tech" dives with doubles, stages, scooters, etc., it is. The "DIR nazis" believe you should only use what you need. But as a matter of fact, none of the DIR people cares if you want to dive with a 100# wing or even two of them. It's A-okay. Go ahead. I understand that you like it. But just because you like it, doesn't mean that somebody else can't explain why they think it's overkill.

[Dan Gibson]

Considering that a Luxfer 80 starts 2# negative and ends 4# positive with air, it will drag at the beginning of the dive. Now replace it with helium and it is nearly neutral at the start of the dive. That is a good thing if you need to carry a lot of bottles. Nice try, but you are not correct.

The rest of your argument shows nothing but ignorance.



High helium mixes eh? How high is that? 50%? Typical numbers are a lot lower and represent the smaller portion of the "total" mix. The compressibility of He is also a factor if you want to split hairs. Either way, 3600 psi of any gas mixture is heavy.


Making statments from your own experiences has the added benefit of understanding what you are preaching from a first person perspective. If you can't diversify your diving, at least diversify your reading!


Actually, depending on where the rip is, you may still have emergency bouyancy. By the way most suit breaches are very tiny and hard to find and thinsulate can hold a surprisinig amount of water. Either way, I think the point is that you can no longer rely on bouyancy from the suit.


Spoken like a true armchair diver. Not exactly the "resting" deco one would aspire to. Extra work (stress, air-consumption) if you want to stay off the bottom.


Did you read that too? Maximum is your term. The discussion is about neutral bouyancy not salvage diving.

[gunnelfish]

Dive Rite's recommended air cell for double al80's is the Trek wing. It has 40 lbs of lift.

For double lp 104's they recommend the Rec wing 51 lbs or the classic wing 59 lbs.

The super wing has 77 lbs of lift and is recommended for double lp 120's lp 131's.

After reading eastcoastdiver post i checked out dive rites web page.

If you go by what Dive Rite recommends Yes the super wing is too much for what you need. http://www.diveriteexpress.com/bcs/

[Dan Gibson]

My 104s pump to 2700 with an AL backplate is 31# negative. That includes regs. Adding two more steel 104s (btw, they are essentially the same as the E8-130s. Just a small difference on how negative they are. Why anyone would dive 4 E8-130s is beyond me. You won't arrive at the numbers you claim. Do yourself a favor and buy a fish scale. Go weigh the rig and report back with your findings.


the whole diver, kit and all comes to about negative 80# at the start of the dive. also you might want to add 10# for regs on the 4 E8s

Is the big drink called a hurricane? I'll take two!!!

[Dan Gibson]

Call people Nazis is pretty pathetic. It just minimizes what really took place decades ago. Find another name to insult people. Calling people a$$holes just goes to show that the ones accusing DIR people of hurling insults are just as guilty if not more so.

Tech diving without an thorough understanding of displacement is just plain dangerous.


Just think this entire thing got started because I tired to give a new diver a little advice that I found helpful to me... About getting wings with a little more lift like Dive Rite Super Wings and a SS BP, and I mentioned that I had dual bladder OMS 100lb wings. I know that the GUE DIR nazi's are highly against anything more than 55lb lift non-banded wings. Another incident of the close mindedness of that group of divers. No I am not a math major or an nautical engineer so I can't tell you how displacement effects lift, and no I didn't learn that in OW. Actually after reading through this entire thread, I can believe how many a$$holes there are in the tech community or at least in this thread... So sad... Help your fellow new diver don't rip on other people opinions...

[MechDiver]

So sad... Help your fellow new diver don't rip on other people opinions...

When peoples "opinions" are based on information that is totally wrong, some of us will bother to point that out. Nicely, for awhile.

Oh, and I'm not DIR. But I did listen in OW class so I do know the relationship between buoyancy and displacement and how one affects the other. How you can presume to consider yourself a technically trained diver and not know the same is astounding to me.

[MechDiver]

Call people Nazis is pretty pathetic. It just minimizes what really took place decades ago. Find another name to insult people. Calling people a$$holes just goes to show that the ones accusing DIR people of hurling insults are just as guilty if not more so.

Tech diving without an thorough understanding of displacement is just plain dangerous.

We're all wasting our time with these two. My Ignore Poster bucket runneth over. Maybe I need one of those 100lb wings :rolleyes:

MD

[WJL]

Oh, and I'm not DIR. I should hope not. According to the US Patent and Trademark Office, DIR is a registered trademark of the Interdisciplinary Council on Developmental and Learning Disorders, Inc., and refers to goods and services in the area of "instructional and educational services, namely, lectures and workshops on the subject of improving the identification, prevention and treatment of emotional, developmental and learning disorders."

[novadiver]

I should hope not. According to the US Patent and Trademark Office, DIR is a registered trademark of the Interdisciplinary Council on Developmental and Learning Disorders, Inc., and refers to goods and services in the area of "instructional and educational services, namely, lectures and workshops on the subject of improving the identification, prevention and treatment of emotional, developmental and learning disorders."


Sound like micdiver is DIR after all LOL

[decoeric]

We're all wasting our time with these two. My Ignore Poster bucket runneth over. Maybe I need one of those 100lb wings :rolleyes:

MD
My opinion is not wrong because an opinion cannot be wrong, No where in my first post did I say anything other than what I thought would be a better option for him. In fact here is my first post: “In my opinion having a little more lift than you might need right now is very beneficial. I have dual bladder OMS 100lb cells. As your tanks get bigger and you carry more gear, you will want bigger air cells, trust me... Better to buy a little more now even though you may never need it, then to buy less and than buy again somewhere do the road. Super wings are great and the Transpac is an excellent harness. SS is the way to go, but give the wings a serious look and plan for your future diving just a bit...” You guys tore into me for my opinion. I stated that I thought he should go with the bigger wings and SS BP nothing more. My errors may have come into play when we got into the logistics of buoyancy and displacement. I looked back through my PADI open water text and nowhere did I read anything about displacement vs. buoyancy. Good luck.

[decoeric]

Sound like micdiver is DIR after all LOL
McDiver isn't that a new sandwich at McDonalds?

[novadiver]

My 104s pump to 2700 with an AL backplate is 31# negative. That includes regs. Adding two more steel 104s (btw, they are essentially the same as the E8-130s. Just a small difference on how negative they are. Why anyone would dive 4 E8-130s is beyond me. You won't arrive at the numbers you claim. Do yourself a favor and buy a fish scale. Go weigh the rig and report back with your findings.

I could buy a fish scale, or I could tell you to keep adding. manifold , backplate, can light, reals. Fins ( there negative too) as you can see , it will add up to about 80# negative.

The key word is ABOUT, But I'm sure your 55# wings can hold all that.

When ever you post my BS meter pegs. I can tell your about to post again. WARNING BS WARNING BS there goes that damn meter again LOL at you

[novadiver]

McDiver isn't that a new sandwich at McDonalds?


It's all fish heads and crap

[decoeric]

It's all fish heads and crap
Nice

[Dan Gibson]

I guess I should add a manifold to my doubles. I must have forgotten that piece. Nice try, but they are already on there. Now you may want that 100# wing if you decide you really can't make the dive without the kitchen sink.


I could buy a fish scale, or I could tell you to keep adding. manifold , backplate, can light, reals. Fins ( there negative too) as you can see , it will add up to about 80# negative.

The key word is ABOUT, But I'm sure your 55# wings can hold all that.

When ever you post my BS meter pegs. I can tell your about to post again. WARNING BS WARNING BS there goes that damn meter again LOL at you

[decoeric]

I guess I should add a manifold to my doubles. I must have forgotten that piece. Nice try, but they are already on there. Now you may want that 100# wing if you decide you really can't make the dive without the kitchen sink.
You never know when you might need that as well... See those wings are looking better all of the time.

[Dan Gibson]

It's there. You just have to read between the lines. Try looking for Boyle's law.


I looked back through my PADI open water text and nowhere did I read anything about displacement vs. buoyancy. Good luck.

[bwerb]

Dude...you don't even have to look through the text...remember in class when you were sitting there thinking...wait a minute, I weigh 170lbs, plus this tank and stuff weighs at least forty pounds...I'm up to 210 lbs and now you want me to throw on a weight belt of another 16 lbs so I can sink??

[JeffG]

Dude...you don't even have to look through the text...remember in class when you were sitting there thinking...wait a minute, I weigh 170lbs, plus this tank and stuff weighs at least forty pounds...I'm up to 210 lbs and now you want me to throw on a weight belt of another 16 lbs so I can sink??
Naw...You should of had a 210 lb wing

[Dan Gibson]

That doesn't take place in most of the classes anymore ;) This is why they need someone to teach the class. The home schooling just isn't cutting it.


Dude...you don't even have to look through the text...remember in class when you were sitting there thinking...wait a minute, I weigh 170lbs, plus this tank and stuff weighs at least forty pounds...I'm up to 210 lbs and now you want me to throw on a weight belt of another 16 lbs so I can sink??

[msandler]

Considering that a Luxfer 80 starts 2# negative and ends 4# positive with air, it will drag at the beginning of the dive. Now replace it with helium and it is nearly neutral at the start of the dive. That is a good thing if you need to carry a lot of bottles. Nice try, but you are not correct.

The rest of your argument shows nothing but ignorance.

Dan, Why would I want to replace my air with helium? I need to breath from these tanks. This is almost as amuzing as this comment you made earlier in the thread.


SS plates will make you so top heavy that you will be fighting your trim.
Hilarious!

and it just keeps coming...


It's there. You just have to read between the lines. Try looking for Boyle's law.

Boyle's law examines Ideal Gases NOT the mass of a displaced volume of liquid. The property referred to is "Density". By the way, drag does not change if the surface area doesn't change regardless of the mass. Personally I carry nitrox stages the same way I carry trimix stages.

And you are criticising others? Stop it please your killing me :laughing:

[JeffG]

Dan, Why would I want to replace my air with helium? I need to breath from these tanks. This is almost as amuzing as this comment you made earlier in the thread.


Hilarious!

and it just keeps coming...
<snip>And you are criticising others? Stop it please your killing me :laughing:
OMG....open mouth...insert foot

[msandler]

OMG....open mouth...insert foot
sorry, guess I should explain that the example given by Dan is not tangible in actual diving. first a type helium mix would contain about 30% Helium (the weight difference in the stage would be negligible). His calculations are invalid for the variety of equipment being used (different tanks, different regs.), or even the equipment he is specifically referencing. You get the picture? Also, typically helium would be "back gas" Dan is only mentioning Al80's because that's what he got out of the DIR philosophy. He has missed the boat on the very sound principles of "DIR". For example, there are plenty of dives that call for other size tanks - deep deco dives where a travel gas is useful to minimize deco times - you would probably only need 20 - 30 cuft of a specific mix for a given portion of the dive, so why bring 80?

Your pal's lack of real diving experience with the systems, situations and mixtures he is referring to in his posts is blatantly obvious. I hope he doesn't misslead to many people.

[bwerb]

Hmm...a Trimix instructor questioning that the addition of helium to tanks in lieu of air...huh?

Sorry...edit...

Seems your answered my confusion while I was typing.

[JeffG]

sorry, guess I should explain that the example given by Dan is not tangible in actual diving. first a type helium mix would contain about 30% Helium (the weight difference in the stage would be negligible). His calculations are invalid for the variety of equipment being used (different tanks, different regs.), or even the equipment he is specifically referencing. You get the picture? Also, typically helium would be "back gas" Dan is only mentioning Al80's because that's what he got out of the DIR philosophy. He has missed the boat on the very sound principles of "DIR". For example, there are plenty of dives that call for other size tanks - deep deco dives where a travel gas is useful to minimize deco times - you would probably only need 20 - 30 cuft of a specific mix for a given portion of the dive, so why bring 80?

Your pal's lack of real diving experience with the systems, situations and mixtures he is referring to in his posts is blatantly obvious. I hope he doesn't misslead to many people.
That makes more sense. (as with Bwerb the Air vs Helium trade seemed ...odd.) But others are using Helium in their deco gas. (I doubt its across the board...but a few). Also, I've seen dives done with AL80's stages..not quite the deco Idea, but they are dragging them around.

[novadiver]

Dan, Why would I want to replace my air with helium? I need to breath from these tanks. This is almost as amuzing as this comment you made earlier in the thread.


Hilarious!

and it just keeps coming...



Boyle's law examines Ideal Gases NOT the mass of a displaced volume of liquid. The property referred to is "Density". By the way, drag does not change if the surface area doesn't change regardless of the mass. Personally I carry nitrox stages the same way I carry trimix stages.

And you are criticising others? Stop it please your killing me :laughing:


msandler, It's good to see someone with brains show up, every time they ( Dan G ,Micdiver,) show up they start this compitition to see how far they can peg the BS meter. I sometimes wounder how these people made it to adulthood . Could you picture being one of their students or dive buddies?
Now I know what the knife is for. LOL

[Dan Gibson]

Replace some of the nitrogen with helium. Do you have to have it spelled out totally for you? Go run the numbers. You might want to consider picking a high helium content. This is in reference to the multiple bottle example. Apparently you have forgotten or ignored that part of the thread.

When I say drag, I mean they tanks will be hanging down out of the slipstream. With less weight (i.e. replace some of the nitrogen with helium), they tanks will start out closer to neutral. This is in reference to stage bottles if you haven't quite picked up on that yet.


Also, you might note that volume is related to pressure. Now try applying that to what everyone knows is the density of water. Yes, that was in the PADI OW manual. Since I know the volume displaced and the density of the water, I can easily figure out the buoyant force. You might want to actually take a physics class since the dive industry has totally failed in teaching you this information.

You keep putting your foot in your mouth. You must be an instructor.



sorry, guess I should explain that the example given by Dan is not tangible in actual diving. first a type helium mix would contain about 30% Helium (the weight difference in the stage would be negligible). His calculations are invalid for the variety of equipment being used (different tanks, different regs.), or even the equipment he is specifically referencing. You get the picture? Also, typically helium would be "back gas" Dan is only mentioning Al80's because that's what he got out of the DIR philosophy. He has missed the boat on the very sound principles of "DIR". For example, there are plenty of dives that call for other size tanks - deep deco dives where a travel gas is useful to minimize deco times - you would probably only need 20 - 30 cuft of a specific mix for a given portion of the dive, so why bring 80?

Your pal's lack of real diving experience with the systems, situations and mixtures he is referring to in his posts is blatantly obvious. I hope he doesn't misslead to many people.

[decoeric]

Dan, Why would I want to replace my air with helium? I need to breath from these tanks. This is almost as amuzing as this comment you made earlier in the thread.


Hilarious!

and it just keeps coming...



Boyle's law examines Ideal Gases NOT the mass of a displaced volume of liquid. The property referred to is "Density". By the way, drag does not change if the surface area doesn't change regardless of the mass. Personally I carry nitrox stages the same way I carry trimix stages.

And you are criticising others? Stop it please your killing me :laughing:
Thanks... I was thinking the same thing about Boyles Law. I didn't want to say anything because I am sure I would have gotten that I am not qualified to dive anymore...

[The Fresh Prince]

msandler, It's good to see someone with brains show up, every time they ( Dan G ,Micdiver,) show up they start this compitition to see how far they can peg the BS meter. I sometimes wounder how these people made it to adulthood . Could you picture being one of their students or dive buddies?
Now I know what the knife is for. LOL
Nova, are you posting undera pen name? Msandler spews as much hyperbole as you, writes in a similar manner, and uses the same derogatory references. Hmmmmm......makes me think. :eyebrow:

[jagfish]

Hey Dan
Oddly enough I saw this posted on another thread today, but it seems to apply exceedingly well to the circus that has develped here...I'm taking the advice as well

"Never argue with an idiot (or two). He (they) will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience (which in this case seems to be substantial)".

[The Fresh Prince]

My opinion is not wrong because an opinion cannot be wrong, No where in my first post did I say anything other than what I thought would be a better option for him. In fact here is my first post: “In my opinion having a little more lift than you might need right now is very beneficial. I have dual bladder OMS 100lb cells. As your tanks get bigger and you carry more gear, you will want bigger air cells, trust me... Better to buy a little more now even though you may never need it, then to buy less and than buy again somewhere do the road. Super wings are great and the Transpac is an excellent harness. SS is the way to go, but give the wings a serious look and plan for your future diving just a bit...” You guys tore into me for my opinion. I stated that I thought he should go with the bigger wings and SS BP nothing more. My errors may have come into play when we got into the logistics of buoyancy and displacement. I looked back through my PADI open water text and nowhere did I read anything about displacement vs. buoyancy. Good luck.
Gee DE, maybe you remember the question posed by the thread starter:
"I am about to begin tech training, and I needed to know a little bit of info about a bc setup. I am planning on purchasing the Dive Rite steel back plate and harness, but I can't decide on the wings. I will currently be using my bc with al 80 doubles, but in the future I would like to do some cave diving with pressed steel 104s and some decompression bottles. Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s? Thanks for your help! (And be nice to me, this is my first post!)"
Then, maybe you will remember your second post:
130's with a 55lb wing??? Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit. To me it seems like a bad plan. Dive Rite recommends at minimum Classic wings with 59lb of lift for "heavy" doubles. Like I said a little more lift is always a better plan, especially if you do any diving that have a surface swim involved the more lift on your back will get your head out of the water better for those swims. Also the SS back plate with possibly a tank weight of some kind and ankle weights would most likely reverse the need to carry a weight belt at all. Which is very nice. When it comes right down to it you are going to buy what you think is best. Everyone in the Tech community is going to tell you something different. Case in point here. Best advice I got was buy the best you can afford, but a little more than you might need now when planning for future tech dives... Have fun.
So in fact, your "opinion" can be wrong. Even Nova stated he uses a single wing with 60# lift for heavy doubles. Maybe you can expound on the really neat technical dives with multiple stages, scooters, extra battery cannisters for your light, deco bottles, and two sets of doubles for back gas that you have done that required 100# lift from your wings. Now you have "Supernova" jumping in and MSandler expounding on his various theories for displacement that defy the natural laws of physics and discount what has been learned in the field. Oh my, using helium in your back gas, stages, and decompression bottles, who would have thought of that. And of course, only up to 30%. Can't see why we would ever use more in technical diving. Or, that we use the stage bottles for breathing and save back tanks for an emergency.

[decoeric]

[/COLOR]
Gee DE, maybe you remember the question posed by the thread starter:
"I am about to begin tech training, and I needed to know a little bit of info about a bc setup. I am planning on purchasing the Dive Rite steel back plate and harness, but I can't decide on the wings. I will currently be using my bc with al 80 doubles, but in the future I would like to do some cave diving with pressed steel 104s and some decompression bottles. Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s? Thanks for your help! (And be nice to me, this is my first post!)"
Then, maybe you will remember your second post:
130's with a 55lb wing??? Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit. To me it seems like a bad plan. Dive Rite recommends at minimum Classic wings with 59lb of lift for "heavy" doubles. Like I said a little more lift is always a better plan, especially if you do any diving that have a surface swim involved the more lift on your back will get your head out of the water better for those swims. Also the SS back plate with possibly a tank weight of some kind and ankle weights would most likely reverse the need to carry a weight belt at all. Which is very nice. When it comes right down to it you are going to buy what you think is best. Everyone in the Tech community is going to tell you something different. Case in point here. Best advice I got was buy the best you can afford, but a little more than you might need now when planning for future tech dives... Have fun.
So in fact, your "opinion" can be wrong. Even Nova stated he uses a single wing with 60# lift for heavy doubles. Maybe you can expound on the really neat technical dives with multiple stages, scooters, extra battery cannisters for your light, deco bottles, and two sets of doubles for back gas that you have done that required 100# lift from your wings. Now you have "Supernova" jumping in and MSandler expounding on his various theories for displacement that defy the natural laws of physics and discount what has been learned in the field. Oh my, using helium in your back gas, stages, and decompression bottles, who would have thought of that. And of course, only up to 30%. Can't see why we would ever use more in technical diving. Or, that we use the stage bottles for breathing and save back tanks for an emergency.
That wasn't my second posting. This was: "Stainless you can take some weight off of your belt, which is nice... 104's are going to be pretty heavy and the SS pack will feel in my opinion much more solid. I have a SS BP and love it, it just feels more solid to me.. Just my 2 cents." So again, my opinion of wings was not wrong.

Thanks for playing and have fun storming the castle...

[novadiver]

Nova, are you posting undera pen name? Msandler spews as much hyperbole as you, writes in a similar manner, and uses the same derogatory references. Hmmmmm......makes me think. :eyebrow:

No pen name here! It looks like two divers fighting the ignorance that washes up on the shores of the internet. It's like medical waste around here . hows that for hyperbole.:D

[novadiver]

Hey Dan
Oddly enough I saw this posted on another thread today, but it seems to apply exceedingly well to the circus that has develped here...I'm taking the advice as well

"Never argue with an idiot (or two). He (they) will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience (which in this case seems to be substantial)".

Sound like your still taking advice from a drunk. :toilet

[The Fresh Prince]

That wasn't my second posting. This was: "Stainless you can take some weight off of your belt, which is nice... 104's are going to be pretty heavy and the SS pack will feel in my opinion much more solid. I have a SS BP and love it, it just feels more solid to me.. Just my 2 cents." So again, my opinion of wings was not wrong.

Thanks for playing and have fun storming the castle...
Oh, golly gee DE. Who said this for an opinion:
"Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit"
I have dove way more weight than this, minimal air in my drysuit, and partially filled 55# lift wing. I must defy the laws of physics because your opinion can't be wrong.
Tilting at Windmills??? Think, then speak.

[novadiver]

Oh, golly gee DE. Who said this for an opinion:
"Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit"
I have dove way more weight than this, minimal air in my drysuit, and partially filled 55# lift wing. I must defy the laws of physics because your opinion can't be wrong.
Tilting at Windmills??? Think, then speak.


It's that head that keeps you so buoyant. next time keep your drunken diatribe of ignorance to yourself. DE was only telling someone that was thinking about tech diving about the 100# super wing.What does it matter to you!!


And the mods call me a trouble maker, now thats nerve!!

[decoeric]

Oh, golly gee DE. Who said this for an opinion:
"Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit"
I have dove way more weight than this, minimal air in my drysuit, and partially filled 55# lift wing. I must defy the laws of physics because your opinion can't be wrong.
Tilting at Windmills??? Think, then speak.
I made a mistake nothing more... I see now how people are treated around here... I personally believe that having a little more lift and dual bladders is a good thing.. I am not a physics major nor do I profess to be... So once again my opinion of wings and harness is still not wrong... My thinking behind lift may be, but that wasn't my original opinion.
Next...

[novadiver]

I made a mistake nothing more... I see now how people are treated around here... I personally believe that having a little more lift and dual bladders is a good thing.. I am not a physics major nor do I profess to be... So once again my opinion of wings and harness is still not wrong... My thinking behind lift may be, but that wasn't my original opinion.
Next...

Well said eric. hope these crusty divers don't stop you from posting in the future.

[decoeric]

Well said eric. hope these crusty divers don't stop you from posting in the future.
Nope, not even close. Because while they are sitting around in there underwear, banging away on this board this weekend making fun of people, I will be underwater, with my 100lb wings, SS-BP, reading my new physics book about displacement vs. bouyancy for dummies, on my deco hangs.

[decoeric]

Oh, golly gee DE. Who said this for an opinion:
"Dual 130's alone weigh 94lbs empty not counting hardware and a manifold, they are negative 10lbs full but +.75 empty. With stage bottles and possibily a can light you are looking at well over 150lbs of gear? 55lb wings would not even keep you a float with that kind of gear, with out adding a ton of air to your dry suit"
I have dove way more weight than this, minimal air in my drysuit, and partially filled 55# lift wing. I must defy the laws of physics because your opinion can't be wrong.
Tilting at Windmills??? Think, then speak.
I love you man

[msandler]

When I say drag, I mean they tanks will be hanging down out of the slipstream. With less weight (i.e. replace some of the nitrogen with helium), they tanks will start out closer to neutral. This is in reference to stage bottles if you haven't quite picked up on that yet.
Is that with a SS plate or the "trim correcting" Al. item. Dan, have you ever dove with stages? Why would they hang any differently? Maybe you just have too much strap between the bottle and the "D's". Maybe you are in over your head and to dumb to know it.
Closer to neutral? Please quantify this in exact figures given a 18/30 mix vs air in, lets say your 80cuft cylinder at 3400psi? Show your work. By the way, you choose your diving gases to satisfy the dive profile NOT your bouyancy. The reason we don't want a ton of He in our breathing gas is because it is absorbed in "slow compartments" almost 3 times faster than nitrogen thus resulting in additional deco (Henry's Law - before you embarass yourself again). You really don't kow what you are talking about. You are trying to relate your contradictions to diving but they are only contradictions for the sake of defending yourself and hiding your ignorance.

I'm done. Have at it.

[decoeric]

Is that with a SS plate or the "trim correcting" Al. item. Dan, have you ever dove with stages? Why would they hang any differently? Maybe you just have too much strap between the bottle and the "D's". Maybe you are in over your head and to dumb to know it.
Closer to neutral? Please quantify this in exact figures given a 18/30 mix vs air in, lets say your 80cuft cylinder at 3400psi? Show your work. By the way, you choose your diving gases to satisfy the dive profile NOT your bouyancy. The reason we don't want a ton of He in our breathing gas is because it is absorbed in "slow compartments" almost 3 times faster than nitrogen thus resulting in additional deco (Henry's Law - before you embarass yourself again). You really don't kow what you are talking about. You are trying to relate your contradictions to diving but they are only contradictions for the sake of defending yourself and hiding your ignorance.

I'm done. Have at it.
Nope, I love you more... Well said...

[Jcrain33]

Wow. Thanks for some of the advice, guys. I appreciate some the comments, and I laughed at other ones. You guys are pretty mean to each other sometimes!

Anyway, you helped me figure out what to purchase. I grabbed the Classic wing because it was able to accomodate both medium and larger doubles.

Now that my problem is resolved, maybe we should end this thread before someone ends up dead (or wrapped up in a big Wing and dumped into the river).

[novadiver]

Wow. Thanks for some of the advice, guys. I appreciate some the comments, and I laughed at other ones. You guys are pretty mean to each other sometimes!

Anyway, you helped me figure out what to purchase. I grabbed the Classic wing because it was able to accomodate both medium and larger doubles.

Now that my problem is resolved, maybe we should end this thread before someone ends up dead (or wrapped up in a big Wing and dumped into the river).


Good luck with your tech training, I f you have any more questions, please feel free to ask. As you can see, you'll get both sides of the debate and more here at scubaboard.

[novadiver]

Is that with a SS plate or the "trim correcting" Al. item. Dan, have you ever dove with stages? Why would they hang any differently? Maybe you just have too much strap between the bottle and the "D's". Maybe you are in over your head and to dumb to know it.
Closer to neutral? Please quantify this in exact figures given a 18/30 mix vs air in, lets say your 80cuft cylinder at 3400psi? Show your work. By the way, you choose your diving gases to satisfy the dive profile NOT your bouyancy. The reason we don't want a ton of He in our breathing gas is because it is absorbed in "slow compartments" almost 3 times faster than nitrogen thus resulting in additional deco (Henry's Law - before you embarass yourself again). You really don't kow what you are talking about. You are trying to relate your contradictions to diving but they are only contradictions for the sake of defending yourself and hiding your ignorance.

I'm done. Have at it.

If I had to pick a dive team, this man would be on it. I just think his "take no BS attitude" is what you look for in a team member.

[MikeFerrara]

Funniest thread I've seen in a while.

A 55 pound wing work just fine even when carrying quit a few stages and /or decompression bottles, dry suit, double 104's, can light and reels...ect.

[The Kraken]

The guy wants to use a 100# lift wing - geez, just let him and get on with your lives.

[Dan Gibson]

I won't use your gases. Here is my example. Consider an 80 cft tank. (Luxfer S080)

80 cft in tank with Air
80 cft * 0.075 lb/ft3 = 6 lb

80 cft of 21/35 in tank
He - 96.71 ft3/lb
1/96.71 = 0.01034 lb/ft3
35% * 80 ft3 * 0.01034 lb/ft3 = 0.29 lb of Helium
O2 - 12.1 ft3/lb = 0.083 lb/ft3
21% * 80 ft3 * 0.083 lb/ft3 = 1.39 lb of O2
N2 – 13.8 ft3/lb = 0.072 lb/ft3
44% * 80 ft3 * 0.072 lb/ft3 = 2.53 lb of N2
Total weight of gas = 0.29 + 1.39 + 2.53 = 4.21 lb

That’s about a 1.8 lb difference in replacing about 35% of the gas with Helium. This is hardly an impractical gas for diving.

When you consider a Luxfer S080 goes from –2 lb to +4 lb bouyant with air, you can see that using 21/35 would reduce the initial negative bouyancy to -0.2 lb. This would definitely ride better in the slipstream. The ending buoyancy will remain the same. You can add a reg to this and yes, the tank will start out a little more negative. It’s still a better situation buoyancy wise than diving with air or nitrox.

This comes back to one of the original arguments that you need a lot of lift for multiple stages. Most won’t carry that many stages. If you do, you better make sure they ride properly in the water or you will have some serious drag issues. How about upping the helium content. Try a mixture such as 10/70. If you run the numbers, you will see the weight of the gas is approximately 2.4 lb. Add a reg to this and you will see that the bottle will be just about neutral at the start of the dive. That will make swimming or scootering a lot easier. Swimming two bottles, you wouldn’t work as hard since the bottle is now more streamlined. It would ride in the slipstream. Scootering, there will be less drag, so you couls go farther.

Yes, I do dive stages. When they are full the butt end hangs down into the slipstream. As the get lighter, they float up and out of the way. As far as picking the correct gas for decompression versus buoyancy, Go back and reread the posts. It was about multiple stages requireing a bigger wing. There is no way you carry several (i.e. more than two 80s) with nitrox and can keep those in the slip stream and make any progress. You will have a much harder time than the guys diving a higher helium content.

Your comment about too much helium just shows you are in the camp that thinks helium is bad and to get off it as soon as possible. I choose to believe otherwise. Helium is good.


Is that with a SS plate or the "trim correcting" Al. item. Dan, have you ever dove with stages? Why would they hang any differently? Maybe you just have too much strap between the bottle and the "D's". Maybe you are in over your head and to dumb to know it.
Closer to neutral? Please quantify this in exact figures given a 18/30 mix vs air in, lets say your 80cuft cylinder at 3400psi? Show your work. By the way, you choose your diving gases to satisfy the dive profile NOT your bouyancy. The reason we don't want a ton of He in our breathing gas is because it is absorbed in "slow compartments" almost 3 times faster than nitrogen thus resulting in additional deco (Henry's Law - before you embarass yourself again). You really don't kow what you are talking about. You are trying to relate your contradictions to diving but they are only contradictions for the sake of defending yourself and hiding your ignorance.

I'm done. Have at it.

[Dan Gibson]

Boyle’s states the volume of a gas at a constant temperature varies inversely with the pressure. The corollary is density increases with pressure.

Now, I know it's hard for you, but try and follow me on this. If we take a full flexible container (i.e. a wing) and descend, the volume will decrease and the density of the gas will increase. We know the density of the water. It's in the PADI OW manual. Can one not calculate the displaced volume at any depth and therefore determine the buoyant force? If you can't, you have no business teaching diving at any level.

In order to get back to the original buoyant force on the surface, we have to add gas. Once we get obtain the same volume at depth that we has at the surface, we will have the same volume displaced. This was something missed by one of the original posters. You are just choosing to ignore it.

Hard containers were covered as well in OW. There is no change in volume, therefore the displacement is the same.

You might want to actually learn how to apply these laws before telling people they don't understand them. Reciting a law is of little use if you can't apply it. Yes, it’s all right there in the PADI OW manual. If you didn’t get this, you either chose to ignore it, didn’t understand it, couldn’t apply it or your OW instructor didn’t teach it to you.




Boyle's law examines Ideal Gases NOT the mass of a displaced volume of liquid. The property referred to is "Density".

[msandler]

When you consider a Luxfer S080 goes from –2 lb to +4 lb bouyant with air, you can see that using 21/35 would reduce the initial negative bouyancy to -0.2 lb. This would definitely ride better in the slipstream. The ending buoyancy will remain the same. You can add a reg to this and yes, the tank will start out a little more negative. It’s still a better situation buoyancy wise than diving with air or nitrox.

This comes back to one of the original arguments that you need a lot of lift for multiple stages. Most won’t carry that many stages. If you do, you better make sure they ride properly in the water or you will have some serious drag issues. How about upping the helium content. Try a mixture such as 10/70. If you run the numbers, you will see the weight of the gas is approximately 2.4 lb. Add a reg to this and you will see that the bottle will be just about neutral at the start of the dive. That will make swimming or scootering a lot easier. Swimming two bottles, you wouldn’t work as hard since the bottle is now more streamlined. It would ride in the slipstream. Scootering, there will be less drag, so you couls go farther.

Yes, I do dive stages. When they are full the butt end hangs down into the slipstream. As the get lighter, they float up and out of the way. As far as picking the correct gas for decompression versus buoyancy, Go back and reread the posts. It was about multiple stages requireing a bigger wing. There is no way you carry several (i.e. more than two 80s) with nitrox and can keep those in the slip stream and make any progress. You will have a much harder time than the guys diving a higher helium content.

Your comment about too much helium just shows you are in the camp that thinks helium is bad and to get off it as soon as possible. I choose to believe otherwise. Helium is good.

AAAARGHHHHH!!!!! You are a Freaking Joke! I am amazed anyone is willing to take your side. Sure He is good but you haven't clue why and definetly haven't run the tables to see the affects of He on Deco! If you spoke from experience, you'de have nothing to say!!

You are a poser. You need to stop missrepresenting your experience and stop giving advice! ... A 0.2 lb bouyancy difference - surely you realize, especially at depth, a few breaths would negate that value. Have you ever seen an empty tank with reg in the water? (hint: you would have to dive to experience this) they float top down. Regardless, you don't scooter and you don't know how to handle stages.

The shocker is this!!!

Since you insist on giving helium examples in ignorance - high helium content = 70% !!! SEVENTY PERCENT!!! a 10/70 mix is good for about 500 ft. SOME SIXTEEN ATM (though reality is not your concern you should try to stick your initial normoxic example. You may be able to continue fooling people.) Sticking with the 10/70, it beckons the question...

While you are scootering along the Edmond Fitzgerald, with your poorly attached 10/70 stage, and a 55lb wing which happens to contain the equivalent of a quarter of the gas in your 80cuft stage, WHAT THE HECK IS IN YOUR DOUBLES!!!!! :11:
You can forget about slipstream any idea how much gas you will need? lets say your SAC is .6, that means you will need 0 cuft of gas at depth keeping in mind you don't dive.

Here's a little gas blending 101 for you.

When choosing a mix, try to aim for a nitrogen (narcotic) depth of 130ft (standard). Also try to keep P02 at 1.4

Your 21/35 normoxic mix tops out at about 190 feet perhaps you are narc'd at 100 feet but less helium would be better for the dive. Again, run some tables and see for yourself.

I'll tell you what, diving a 100lb wing is a lot more sane then your what you are describing. In other words, you are attacking the use of a 100lb wing and substantiating it with arguments that are far more flawed. Forget the original blunder, even a child understands why he can lift his father in a pool. Christ man, quit while your ahead you Stroke.

[msandler]

In order to get back to the original buoyant force on the surface, we have to add gas. Once we get obtain the same volume at depth that we has at the surface, we will have the same volume displaced.

Let me help you here:

We are add air at ambiant pressure to displace an amount of water. The bouyant force is equall to the weight of the water that is displaced. Thats where bouyancy comes from.

[The Kraken]

Back to the original question which, if I remember correctly, never even remotely mentioned gas blending . . .

"Obviously the Dive Rite Super Wings would be great for the cave diving, but are they too much for double al 80s?"

I don't think too much is the issue, one should be concerned with "too little".
I would think they would be too much only if you were to encounter a wrapping interference or "taco" effect, or if you were to inflate them fully at depth and try to emulate a hot air balloon.

All you have is a bladder that is capable of being inflated until it gives 100 pounds of lift. This is not saying that one is going to use 100 pounds of lift to ascend.

I don't dive the profiles you guys do, but is 100 pounds too much?

In my opinion, and I set as a qualifier my inexperience in the types of dives disucssed and the protracted dissertations of gas mixing, 100# of lift is not "too much".

[Dan Gibson]

Try 2.4 lb difference. You obviously have a hard time reading as well as understanding math and physics.

Wht don't you go tell people like JJ, AG and the likes how bad helium is for you on deco. Are you just following what some deco program tells you? You might consider not penalizing yourself so much for using helium. I think these guys have shown the programs are no where near correct. Next you are going to tell me that I'm going to get bent treating 30/30 like EAN32.

As for stages, try this picture. It's at the start of a dive. Notice the tank hangs lower than at the end of a dive when it rides up.

http://www.gue.com/research/wkpp/gallery/rda_wkp01_99.shtml
The butt of the tank will start to rise as the tank drains.

btw, I don't subscribe to keep at PPO2 of 1.4%. You can go ahead with your best mix BS, but many of us have decided that is too high. We shhot for lower. We also shoot for an END of 100 ft max. I don't care if you choose to narc yourself or make it harder on your body to deco. I'll listen to people like AG and JJ who have done the types of dives you are trying to say you do. My guess is that you do not.

All this coming from someone who admits to making a dive totally overweighted in a wetsuit. Doesn't that just about say all one needs to know about you.


AAAARGHHHHH!!!!! You are a Freaking Joke! I am amazed anyone is willing to take your side. Sure He is good but you haven't clue why and definetly haven't run the tables to see the affects of He on Deco! If you spoke from experience, you'de have nothing to say!!

You are a poser. You need to stop missrepresenting your experience and stop giving advice! ... A 0.2 lb bouyancy difference - surely you realize, especially at depth, a few breaths would negate that value. Have you ever seen an empty tank with reg in the water? (hint: you would have to dive to experience this) they float top down. Regardless, you don't scooter and you don't know how to handle stages.

The shocker is this!!!

Since you insist on giving helium examples in ignorance - high helium content = 70% !!! SEVENTY PERCENT!!! a 10/70 mix is good for about 500 ft. SOME SIXTEEN ATM (though reality is not your concern you should try to stick your initial normoxic example. You may be able to continue fooling people.) Sticking with the 10/70, it beckons the question...

While you are scootering along the Edmond Fitzgerald, with your poorly attached 10/70 stage, and a 55lb wing which happens to contain the equivalent of a quarter of the gas in your 80cuft stage, WHAT THE HECK IS IN YOUR DOUBLES!!!!! :11:
You can forget about slipstream any idea how much gas you will need? lets say your SAC is .6, that means you will need 0 cuft of gas at depth keeping in mind you don't dive.

Here's a little gas blending 101 for you.

When choosing a mix, try to aim for a nitrogen (narcotic) depth of 130ft (standard). Also try to keep P02 at 1.4

Your 21/35 normoxic mix tops out at about 190 feet perhaps you are narc'd at 100 feet but less helium would be better for the dive. Again, run some tables and see for yourself.

I'll tell you what, diving a 100lb wing is a lot more sane then your what you are describing. In other words, you are attacking the use of a 100lb wing and substantiating it with arguments that are far more flawed. Forget the original blunder, even a child understands why he can lift his father in a pool. Christ man, quit while your ahead you Stroke.

[Dan Gibson]

No, you don't say. You still have to displace the same volume of water no matter what the depth to achieve the same buoyancy. You just aren't following this at all, are you.


Let me help you here:

We are add air at ambiant pressure to displace an amount of water. The bouyant force is equall to the weight of the water that is displaced. Thats where bouyancy comes from.

[-hh]

the 100 lb wing is rated for heavy doubles. I don't own one, ( mine are 60 lb oms)but I see alot of divers with them, there must be something they can be used for?


This could be a game of semantics, depending on just what the Manufacturer is claiming.

For example, if the claim is a 100lb wing with dual bladders, does that mean two 50lb bladders (50+50 = 100), or does it mean two 100lb bladders?

If its the former, then if you need a ~50lbs BC and if you really want your lift redundency in your BC, then you would have dual 50lb bladders and some manufacturers might be inclined to claim its a "100lb" BC, especially if both bladders can be fully inflated simultaneously.

It all just goes to show you how important good communication is.


-hh

[cool_hardware52]

This could be a game of semantics, depending on just what the Manufacturer is claiming.

For example, if the claim is a 100lb wing with dual bladders, does that mean two 50lb bladders (50+50 = 100), or does it mean two 100lb bladders?

If its the former, then if you need a ~50lbs BC and if you really want your lift redundency in your BC, then you would have dual 50lb bladders and some manufacturers might be inclined to claim its a "100lb" BC, especially if both bladders can be fully inflated simultaneously.

It all just goes to show you how important good communication is.


-hh


hh,

I have no dog in this fight, but I should point out that the capacity of a wing is set by the outer shell, not by the internal bladders. Even in a non redundant wing, the bladder will be ~20% larger than the outer shell. This prevents the inner bladder from stretching, the shell takes all the tension loads, the bladder is just the air tight element.

If you put a "50lb" bladder in a "100lbs" wing the bladder would be damaged at full pressure, i.e. about the time the OPV opens.

A redundant wing will contain two bladders, each capable of fully filling the shell.

I must say I do find assuming the logic that "100lbs wings must have a legitimate use because people build and sell them"

Regards,


Tobin

[Dan Gibson]

Nice try again. When I say 100 foot END, I am referring to narcotic depth not EAD. This includes O2, but I'm sure you will point out I am full of it on this as well. btw, 21/35 by the standards I use is good through 160. You choose to follow the way of the dinosaur when it comes to helium. Helium is bad good, not bad.

btw, I have included a quote for you from a good source about helium in stages.

"The real secret to multiple bottles is helium content. Try scootering with several bottles of nitrox and then several bottles of 30/30. The difference is amazing." A direct quote from Dave Sweetin. I think he fully understands how to carry multiple bottles while scootering at 300 ft. Or will you say he is full of it?

I may not have done a dive to 500 ft with multiple stages while scootering, but I have scootered with a stage. It gets easier as the gas is used since butt of the bottle starts to float in the slipstream as gas is used.




Your 21/35 normoxic mix tops out at about 190 feet perhaps you are narc'd at 100 feet but less helium would be better for the dive. Again, run some tables and see for yourself.

[MikeFerrara]

AAAARGHHHHH!!!!! You are a Freaking Joke! I am amazed anyone is willing to take your side. Sure He is good but you haven't clue why and definetly haven't run the tables to see the affects of He on Deco! If you spoke from experience, you'de have nothing to say!!

You are a poser. You need to stop missrepresenting your experience and stop giving advice! ... A 0.2 lb bouyancy difference - surely you realize, especially at depth, a few breaths would negate that value. Have you ever seen an empty tank with reg in the water? (hint: you would have to dive to experience this) they float top down. Regardless, you don't scooter and you don't know how to handle stages.



I hate to but in here like this but I know who Dan is. I run into him around the Missouri caves once in a while.

You wouldn't care to clue us in on your credentials would you?


The shocker is this!!!

Since you insist on giving helium examples in ignorance - high helium content = 70% !!! SEVENTY PERCENT!!! a 10/70 mix is good for about 500 ft. SOME SIXTEEN ATM (though reality is not your concern you should try to stick your initial normoxic example. You may be able to continue fooling people.) Sticking with the 10/70, it beckons the question...

While you are scootering along the Edmond Fitzgerald, with your poorly attached 10/70 stage, and a 55lb wing which happens to contain the equivalent of a quarter of the gas in your 80cuft stage, WHAT THE HECK IS IN YOUR DOUBLES!!!!! :11:
You can forget about slipstream any idea how much gas you will need? lets say your SAC is .6, that means you will need 0 cuft of gas at depth keeping in mind you don't dive.

Here's a little gas blending 101 for you.

When choosing a mix, try to aim for a nitrogen (narcotic) depth of 130ft (standard). Also try to keep P02 at 1.4

Your 21/35 normoxic mix tops out at about 190 feet perhaps you are narc'd at 100 feet but less helium would be better for the dive. Again, run some tables and see for yourself.



Actually some of us don't use 21/35 any deeper than about 150 and we start using 10/70 at about 250.

rather than use "best mix" we use the same gas for the same depth range...so...we have the schedules pretty much down pat. Gas mixing is easy too since all the mixes are just helium topped with 32%...for 21/35, 18/45, 15/55 and 10/70. That's especially handy if you bank 32% and use that for all shallower dives. Now there's some gas mixing 101 for you.

We keep the PPO2 down and save the O2 slam for decompression.

Keeping the END above 100 or so make for a nice memorable dive.

[Dan Gibson]

Nice post Mike. You definitely write your thoughts better than I do. I'm having trouble keeping up with all the nonsense in this thread. It makes it hard to concentrate on each individual comment.

btw, I'm trying to get Jody, Jay and Robert down to Cannonball again soon. Florida will have to wait till October.

Hey, I also have my continuous blender up and running. I can hit 32% within 0.2% all the time. Of course, if I'm off a little, I will have to carry some deco schedules to rework my deco ;)

If you want to know, where to get a really cheap nitrox stick, I can give you that info. Jody put one together for his friend with a boat on the St. Lawrence for about $100.


I hate to but in here like this but I know who Dan is. I run into him around the Missouri caves once in a while.

You wouldn't care to clue us in on your credentials would you?

Actually some of us don't use 21/35 any deeper than about 150 and we start using 10/70 at about 250.

rather than use "best mix" we use the same gas for the same depth range...so...we have the schedules pretty much down pat. Gas mixing is easy too since all the mixes are just helium topped with 32%...for 21/35, 18/45, 15/55 and 10/70. That's especially handy if you bank 32% and use that for all shallower dives. Now there's some gas mixing 101 for you.

We keep the PPO2 down and save the O2 slam for decompression.

Keeping the END above 100 or so make for a nice memorable dive.

[rjchandler]

WOW -- someone used the "S" word. and their going to dive the Fitzgerald. This thread is going to get exciting.

[msandler]

All this coming from someone who admits to making a dive totally overweighted in a wetsuit. Doesn't that just about say all one needs to know about you.

Hey I ressemble that comment! Damn me for stating actual pertinent real world factual information that is based on true experience. the other comments especially yours, is heresay. I think the questions in this thread can be answered in relation to my experience on that dive (which was fantastic). I will always offer my experiences without concern of judgement, opinion or embarrasment. What I won't do is drop names, reference the experience and philosophies of others while having no direct personal experience to relate to.

By the way the dive (bouyancy) was no surprise, I repeat it in a heart beat. The stage tanks are left on deck during penetration. I think (memory) the bottom mix analyzed out to 19/28. I had nitrox 50/50 in one stage and 80/20 in the other.

You are still relying on you read. I love how all your comments are "WE". In other words, by referring to a collective group, you can get around having no person experience by riding on the shirt tails of others

By the way, you don't have to subscribe to P02 of 1.4 (you subscribe to whatever you read at the GUE site - not bad if you understood it), but "keeping" the P02 at 1.4 would require the constant P02 diving available to CCR diving. That's what is fantastic about a rebreather after all. In a normal dive the P02 is constantly changing with depth. A "max" of 1.4 will ensure you will avoid CNS for most dives. Don't worry about 19,000 penetrations, Jarrod and George don't dive with Strokes.

[-hh]

hh,

I have no dog in this fight, but I should point out that the capacity of a wing is set by the outer shell, not by the internal bladders. Even in a non redundant wing, the bladder will be ~20% larger than the outer shell. This prevents the inner bladder from stretching, the shell takes all the tension loads, the bladder is just the air tight element.

Good catch...I forgotten about that point (probably due to minimal interest in redundant bladder hardware :-)


I must say I do find assuming the logic that "100lbs wings must have a legitimate use because people build and sell them"

I agree, but my concern is in part because we're always going to have some "PT Barnum" buyers that can keep "non-optimal" or even "snake oil" products going (take Windows for an example :-). IMO, the contemporary trend seems to be that people are moving into tech diving with fewer years of experience, not more, which would tend to exasperate this type of problem too. YMMV.


-hh

[jonnythan]

which would tend to exasperate this type of problem too. YMMV.


I hate doing this, but here goes:

ex·as·per·ate (g-zsp-rt)
1. To make very angry or impatient; annoy greatly.

ex·ac·er·bate (g-zsr-bt)
To increase the severity, violence, or bitterness of.

[Dan Gibson]

You are to damn funny. Willing to repeat mistakes from the past, leaving bottles in OW. You know, some of us learn from others mistakes. We don't have to keep touching the hot stove to be sure it is hot. Maybe you need to use more helium so you can remember next time.


Hey I ressemble that comment! Damn me for stating actual pertinent real world factual information that is based on true experience. the other comments especially yours, is heresay. I think the questions in this thread can be answered in relation to my experience on that dive (which was fantastic). I will always offer my experiences without concern of judgement, opinion or embarrasment. What I won't do is drop names, reference the experience and philosophies of others while having no direct personal experience to relate to.

By the way the dive (bouyancy) was no surprise, I repeat it in a heart beat. The stage tanks are left on deck during penetration. I think (memory) the bottom mix analyzed out to 19/28. I had nitrox 50/50 in one stage and 80/20 in the other.

You are still relying on you read. I love how all your comments are "WE". In other words, by referring to a collective group, you can get around having no person experience by riding on the shirt tails of others

By the way, you don't have to subscribe to P02 of 1.4 (you subscribe to whatever you read at the GUE site - not bad if you understood it), but "keeping" the P02 at 1.4 would require the constant P02 diving available to CCR diving. That's what is fantastic about a rebreather after all. In a normal dive the P02 is constantly changing with depth. A "max" of 1.4 will ensure you will avoid CNS for most dives. Don't worry about 19,000 penetrations, Jarrod and George don't dive with Strokes.

[WJL]

I still like the theory that msandler is a sock puppet for novadiver.

[jonnythan]

I'm not sure novadiver is smart enough for that ;)

[novadiver]

I'm not sure novadiver is smart enough for that ;)


Well I'm sure ,your not sure of anything !

If you haven't noticed , the origanal poster made his choice and left. That only leaves one question, are we going for distance or accuracy? eather way most of you will need to disconnect the pee valve first.If you don't you will pee on your shoes ( I learned this from dan)

I'd like to play , but my tanks just got VIPed and I need to pick them up.( going diving over the weekend)

As far as nova being a puppet. Why don't you ask the mods if we have one or two IP addresses.


Oh jonnythan I found that picture of your last dive. Hope you don't mind if I post it here.:klo:Looks like your still are a little negative.

[novadiver]

I still like the theory that msandler is a sock puppet for novadiver.


You got nerve talking about puppets. Is that JJs hand in you backside makeing your lips move? I thought so.

I've been diving sense before you were born. Keep strokin you'll get there EDIT my mistake I got you and jonnythan mixed up. you all look the same to me

[msandler]

Mike F. You sound like you know what you are talking about (except for your endorsement of Dan). You make informed, understood diving choices and you are accountible to them as I am. You stick to your 100'END I'll keep 130' you dive 1.2ppo2, I'll max 1.4 (I would lower it if the duration required it however - my longest dive lasted only 3 1/2 hrs. By the way, most of it deco at 1.6. It was in 1991 or (2) on the Barre, get this; the first time i did it on air - good grief! Enter Trimix... No insult intended, but personally I don't care who knows Dan, I have witnessed his ignorance here. It is very easy to see when someone has real insight to contribute or just talking like a bigshot.

What credentials would you like? Send me a PM...

[decoeric]

Mike F. You sound like you know what you are talking about (except for your endorsement of Dan). You make informed, understood diving choices and you are accountible to them as I am. You stick to your 100'END I'll keep 130' you dive 1.2ppo2, I'll max 1.4 (I would lower it if the duration required it however - my longest dive lasted only 3 1/2 hrs. By the way, most of it deco at 1.6. It was in 1991 or (2) on the Barre, get this; the first time i did it on air - good grief! Enter Trimix... No insult intended, but personally I don't care who knows Dan, I have witnessed his ignorance here. It is very easy to see when someone has real insight to contribute or just talking like a bigshot.

What credentials would you like? Send me a PM...
I have heard the Wilkes - Barre is a great wreck. I know a friend of mine did it with Billy Deans quite a few years ago. Doesn't the upper part of the wreck start at about 180ish?

[WJL]

As far as nova being a puppet. Why don't you ask the mods if we have one or two IP addresses.
Wouldn't that take all the mystery out of your relationship?

[MSilvia]

In my opinion, and I set as a qualifier my inexperience in the types of dives disucssed and the protracted dissertations of gas mixing, 100# of lift is not "too much".

The biggest problem I see with it is that that extra, uninflated capacity is going to translate into extra drag and extra work. Assuming you see the value in being streamlined, and don't anticipate having to hoist a grossly overweighted diver, there's a good argument for not carrying a wing that's substantially larger than necessary.

Thanks for the entertaining thread guys.

[The Kraken]

Agreed, but the question was about lift, not drag.
Lift was the only parameter mentioned in the original question. I would love to have a bladder the size of my 30# Venture Wing that would give me 100 pounds of lift.

[dab]

First and foremost you should review any potential purchases with your instructor prior to the purchase. We dive with LP112's, neoprene dry suits and prefer a ss backplate with diverite classic wings-- this combo works great for us in the cold waters of the great lakes.

[MSilvia]

Agreed, but the question was about lift, not drag.
Lift was the only parameter mentioned in the original question.

Yeah, but saying the lift isn't too much without mentioning the downside of having more lift than necessary is misleading from a practical standpoint. Just because it wasn't asked specifically doesn't mean it isn't relevant... especially to someone who doesn't have much experience with wings.

Imaginary wings aside, extra lift means extra volume, which means extra drag.

[decoeric]

The biggest problem I see with it is that that extra, uninflated capacity is going to translate into extra drag and extra work. Assuming you see the value in being streamlined, and don't anticipate having to hoist a grossly overweighted diver, there's a good argument for not carrying a wing that's substantially larger than necessary.

Thanks for the entertaining thread guys.
Actually with the OMS 100lb wings which I have, the wings are banded so when they are deflated they are actually more compact than my old Dive Rite classic wings. So in my mind and I am sure I will get cruxified for this, but they create less drag in the water. Just for the record I am running out and buying a book on drag before Dan, Mechdiver and the rest of them start pounding the nails...

[MSilvia]

Actually with the OMS 100lb wings which I have, the wings are banded so when they are deflated they are actually more compact than my old Dive Rite classic wings. So in my mind and I am sure I will get cruxified for this, but they create less drag in the water. Just for the record I am running out and buying a book on drag before Dan, Mechdiver and the rest of them start pounding the nails...

There might be something to that, but I wonder if the irregular surface of the band-scrunched wing wouldn't create more turbulence-related drag than a somewhat larger smooth-surfaced wing. I don't know enough about it to know where the line between them should be drawn from a hydrodynamic perspective.

I'd love to see some wind-tunnel test results though! :D

[msandler]

I have heard the Wilkes - Barre is a great wreck. I know a friend of mine did it with Billy Deans quite a few years ago. Doesn't the upper part of the wreck start at about 180ish?

Its an Everest of Wrecks, too awesome for words! The top (tower) comes with-in 140' of the surface, the sand is 320' at the bow. 150' of veritcal relief is incredible. Easily penetrable. Fantastic vis, you can easily make out the entire ship from about 90' on a good day. Its huge! I dove it with Dean's as well, and with Mark Neese. Too bad Dean's got out of the biz.

[decoeric]

Its an Everest of Wrecks, too awesome for words! The top (tower) comes with-in 140' of the surface, the sand is 320' at the bow. 150' of veritcal relief is incredible. Easily penetrable. Fantastic vis, you can easily make out the entire ship from about 90' on a good day. Its huge! I dove it with Dean's as well, and with Mark Neese. Too bad Dean's got out of the biz.
Billy just sort of stopped everything didn't he? The Wilkes-Barre is on the list of someday "I hope"

[MikeFerrara]

Mike F. You sound like you know what you are talking about (except for your endorsement of Dan).

LOL. I just though I'd jump in and offer some testimony as to the fact that he does actually dive.




What credentials would you like? Send me a PM...

I don't need to see any. I just thought that if we were going to get to questioning Dan's that we should all put it on the table.

[MikeFerrara]

btw, I'm trying to get Jody, Jay and Robert down to Cannonball again soon. Florida will have to wait till October.

Let me know when. We've been trying to get out there.


Hey, I also have my continuous blender up and running. I can hit 32% within 0.2% all the time. Of course, if I'm off a little, I will have to carry some deco schedules to rework my deco ;)

As long as you know the importance of precision. LOL


If you want to know, where to get a really cheap nitrox stick, I can give you that info. Jody put one together for his friend with a boat on the St. Lawrence for about $100.

Let me know about that too.

[WJL]

I'd love to see some wind-tunnel test results though! :D There is enough difference between the behavior of gas and liquid moving around surfaces that you would need to do the tests in water, not air. If you really want a headache, studying fluid dynamics is the way to get it.

[MSilvia]

If you really want a headache, studying fluid dynamics is the way to get it.

I really don't. Whatever the appropriate tests would be though, I think it would be interesting to see a comparison of the drag of wings of different types and sizes when full, empty, and half full.

[WJL]

I think it would be interesting to see a comparison of the drag of wings of different types and sizes when full, empty, and half full.So you want to inject some actual science into the BWOD argument, eh? I wish you well in your quest, and I will watch your future progress with considerable interest.

[South Pacific Diver]

IMHO the largest wings you can get for the type of diving being performed and still stay streamlined is the way to go. Back in 1986 when we were starting to figure out the deep diving world (tec diving is the catch word today) I barely survived an uncontrolled descent. This was due to the gear we had avaliable back then and the depth we were working at. Most of the gear was built or modified in our garages. After several months of recompression therapy and back to diving full time I started applying lessons learned. With over 2000 dives in the 150+ range with close to 100 sub 300' dives, I would say choose a wing that will do what you need at depth. Who cares what you look like on the surface, if you need a big wing use it. Since we don't wear drysuits out here, even in the sub 300' range the wings do all of the work. I can't speak for those of you locked into drysuits. I don't even know how to dive in one...hehehe

My 2 cents worth.

[novadiver]

I'm shocked that this thread is still going.I want every one of you to go load your gear , in your car , truck , van, on a go-kart if you have to , and go dive this weekend. most of the divers in this thread are suffering from " Idontdiveenough" syndrome .(yea I've had a few beers, so what!!) THe only way to be a real diver is to dive as much as you can, so stop the BS, and go do it.

Now that's a diatribe!!

P.S I don't dive till tomarrow afternoon , so I can sober up , What's your excuse!!!:dance:

It's ten O-clock, now I start drinking water.

[South Pacific Diver]

Nova

Its 2:00 in the afternoon on Saturday here. Already got two dives in for the day and at my real job now......hehe

[JeffG]

Nova

Its 2:00 in the afternoon on Saturday here. Already got two dives in for the day and at my real job now......hehe
hehe

[MSilvia]

So you want to inject some actual science into the BWOD argument, eh?

No, I'm not qualified to. If someone who could do it would though, I'd be interested in seeing the findings.

[Dan Gibson]

Explain one thing to me, Mr. "know it all because I have experienced it first hand". If Boyle's law has no place in the discussion of displacement and buoyancy, why the heck do we need exhaust valves on wings and lift bags. According to your reasoning and trying to trash me for even mentioning it, there would be no need for them. Now, I don't know about you, but I would try to apply this knowledge before trying to lift something. Your way would have been to lift it without an exhaust valve. Once it failed after it exploded on ascent, you would have been left scratching your head (or worse areas) wondering why it happened. I would have done the opposite and tried to apply this knowledge and succeed the first time around. Boyle is definitely related to displacement and thus relevant in the discussion of buoyancy.

As for you knowledge of how stages handle in the water, you chose to ignore pictures of real life divers and say I have no clue. Apparently that link to the picture was doctored. It must have come from the same people who faked the moon landings.

You also have shown no clue how to calculate the different weight of the gases in a stage. Your numbers prove that. I even sent you a quote from a real diver on how helium content helps when carrying multiple bottles. Apparently you haven't heard of him and must think he is full of it as well. That's ok, I'm pretty sure he doesn't know who you are. A definite loss to him :lol3:

Hurl all the insults you want, no one really cares who you are ouside one or two Genesis wannabees on the list. I know I don't really who you are either as you are irrelevent to me.






No insult intended, but personally I don't care who knows Dan, I have witnessed his ignorance here. It is very easy to see when someone has real insight to contribute or just talking like a bigshot.

[msandler]

Fine. Now SHUT UP!

[The Fresh Prince]

I'm shocked that this thread is still going.I want every one of you to go load your gear , in your car , truck , van, on a go-kart if you have to , and go dive this weekend. most of the divers in this thread are suffering from " Idontdiveenough" syndrome .(yea I've had a few beers, so what!!) THe only way to be a real diver is to dive as much as you can, so stop the BS, and go do it.

Now that's a diatribe!!

P.S I don't dive till tomarrow afternoon , so I can sober up , What's your excuse!!!:dance:

It's ten O-clock, now I start drinking water.
Gosh, Supernova. If you had thought of this before you started posting, maybe you wouldn't have had to resort to so many diatribes. Now that I am sober(after having posted intoxicated according to your tastes), it is so nice of you to become the omniscient one in deciding that everyone that disagrees with you "just need to get along and go diving".
Me thinks the horse you ride is just a tad bit tall for thine posterier.
Now, even your protege, MS whatever has thrown in the towel due to the inability to provide logical responses to his posts. BTW, did five dives today.. Feel great again, now that I have defied the laws of physics with my single bladder wing.

[db8us]

This thread is cool !
I am from Germany, so reading about Nazis somewhat strikes me, but i was born 1965, so this was waaaay before my time...
This thread is a MEGATHREAD :-)
We have a thread about: (my experience and opinion after each topic)
-wingsize (55lbs for me, only an old 65 for the double rebreather, but not due to lift, due to width)
-wing-redundancy (never need it, but was THERE on 3 almost-accidents with double-wings)
-Gas choices (pO2 1,0 for me on long dives, 1,2 on shorter on the bottom)
-Helium content (the more the better, for thinking, deco and UW-logistics)
-DIR (works for me, but one can do what he wants, as long as he does not want to dive with me)
-Willkes and Deans ( did it 96 with Billy, i think today he would be DIR ;-), together with the HAVEN in Italy the best wrecks IMHO)
-JJ and GI (dove with both, they are the best)
-He in decogases (use it up to the O2, my favourite decogas would be 100% O2 and 100% He, but i always fail to mix it :-) )
-track-record: I do some dives beyond recreational diving, see www.ekpp.org
-Instructors: Some dudes here proof that they are 10 years behind divingwise
-the bashing: People should do what they want and people should choose whom to believe and whom to dive with and it is good that everyone has the freedom of choice to do so.

Michael

[novadiver]

Gosh, Supernova. If you had thought of this before you started posting, maybe you wouldn't have had to resort to so many diatribes. Now that I am sober(after having posted intoxicated according to your tastes), it is so nice of you to become the omniscient one in deciding that everyone that disagrees with you "just need to get along and go diving".
Me thinks the horse you ride is just a tad bit tall for thine posterier.
Now, even your protege, MS whatever has thrown in the towel due to the inability to provide logical responses to his posts. BTW, did five dives today.. Feel great again, now that I have defied the laws of physics with my single bladder wing.


:knob:

[msandler]

Now, even your protege, MS whatever has thrown in the towel due to the inability to provide logical responses to his posts.

Yes, I have thrown in the towel. Your idol is a moron and you a lemming. By the way, what is the relevance of "5 dives"? To demonstrate you ARE a recreational diver I imagine. If Danny-boy wants to quote from his OW book and quote "real" divers (cause he ain't), I am pleased to let him. Its when he speaks from his own intrepretation that I have difficulty especially when he tries to attack others. This thread is laden with stupid Danisms just have a read. I have noticed how he doesn't try to defend those comments.

Dan the answer to the math discrepancy you hold so dear to your cause of justifying you as a diver is:

From your post I read this...
"When you consider a Luxfer S080 goes from –2 lb to +4 lb bouyant with air, you can see that using 21/35 would reduce the initial negative bouyancy to -0.2 lb."
I didn't verify your math. Nor, did I read your links to "other" sources. I am sure they are informative.

I should have tried harder to interpret what you are trying to articulate. I just skimmed the post ,<- my mistake.

The difference IS less than 2lbs, I mean WHOPPING 2 lbs.

By the way, one could easily do this in their head.

He is weighs 1/7 that of nitrogen (close enough). taking the volume of gas represented in PSI in a given cylinder we can merely divide by 7.

eg. 21/35 in an 80 @ 3000psi

to simplify let say nitrogen is .076 lb/cuft
I will also simplify by saying your 35% is roughly a third of the total. (accurate enough for the filling methods commonly used)

<start>

1/3 of 80 is 27cuft
27 * .076 = 2 pounds of Nitrogen

2 / 7 = .3 lbs of He

difference 1.7 lbs

<finish>

GEEWIZ that was easy!

So we're less than a 2 lb difference. That is close enough for rock and roll baby! And my stages are still not affected in the least! Do you think it has to do with my SS plate? ha!

[boomx5]

Yes, I have thrown in the towel. Your idol is a moron and you a lemming.

In what part of the TOS here says you can constantly call names? You've only been here a few months and logged about 25 posts but think it's alright to insult and try and belittle other long standing members. If you want to disagree with other members here, so be it; however please do so in a respectful way or go play on rec.scuba.

[novadiver]

Yes, I have thrown in the towel. Your idol is a moron and you a lemming. By the way, what is the relevance of "5 dives"? To demonstrate you ARE a recreational diver I imagine. If Danny-boy wants to quote from his OW book and quote "real" divers (cause he ain't), I am pleased to let him. Its when he speaks from his own intrepretation that I have difficulty especially when he tries to attack others. This thread is laden with stupid Danisms just have a read. I have noticed how he doesn't try to defend those comments.

Dan the answer to the math discrepancy you hold so dear to your cause of justifying you as a diver is:

From your post I read this...
"When you consider a Luxfer S080 goes from –2 lb to +4 lb bouyant with air, you can see that using 21/35 would reduce the initial negative bouyancy to -0.2 lb."
I didn't verify your math. Nor, did I read your links to "other" sources. I am sure they are informative.

I should have tried harder to interpret what you are trying to articulate. I just skimmed the post ,<- my mistake.

The difference IS less than 2lbs, I mean WHOPPING 2 lbs.

By the way, one could easily do this in their head.

He is weighs 1/7 that of nitrogen (close enough). taking the volume of gas represented in PSI in a given cylinder we can merely divide by 7.

eg. 21/35 in an 80 @ 3000psi

to simplify let say nitrogen is .076 lb/cuft
I will also simplify by saying your 35% is roughly a third of the total. (accurate enough for the filling methods commonly used)

<start>

1/3 of 80 is 27cuft
27 * .076 = 2 pounds of Nitrogen

2 / 7 = .3 lbs of He

difference 1.7 lbs

<finish>

GEEWIZ that was easy!

So we're less than a 2 lb difference. That is close enough for rock and roll baby! And my stages are still not affected in the least! Do you think it has to do with my SS plate? ha!


Msandler, have you noticed that every diver that claims to be an expert on every dive subject hails a GUE cert? They all have one opinion, and it's always proclaimed as the best and brightest. But in the end ,THe same thing that happened to me yesterday will happen to them . Let me explain,

I dove with two instuctors yesterday(tech and rec). From the begining I new it was going to be a skills challenge. I was running a little late and put my kit together the same way I always do ( I thought). From the begining of the first dive I could not balance to save my a$$. I tryed everything.the wings just would not shift gas. I was going thrue gas like a newbie diver and could not hold any depth to within one foot .I was screaming cuss words into my reg.That's right, I looked like a stroke.This dive was the worst dive in years.

Now heres the good part, It turns out I made a simple mistake.( don't laugh , it will happen to you if you don't listen up) When I put my primary reg on , the long hose went over the wing, not behind it. this little mistake pinched the top of the wing and would not allow air to move from one side to the other. well it turned out that COMPLACENCY finally kicked my butt.

I don't know if these two instructors will ever dive with me again.(can't blame them)(they might still be laughing). But one thing I do know is that it will never happen to me again.

I posted this here because we were talking about wings. If this helps one diver out there, than my mistake was worth it.


That's the differance between me and the GUE divers( I can admitt when I stroke things up.You'll never hear a GUE diver admitt to making a simple mistake.( but you know they do sometimes)

You think I'll take any heat on this post?????:)

[boomx5]

That's the differance between me and the GUE divers( I can admitt when I stroke things up.You'll never hear a GUE diver admitt to making a simple mistake.( but you know they do sometimes)

You think I'll take any heat on this post?????:)

Now this is a good thread topic, and I think we should start a new thread on it called; "How Many GUE Divers Have Made Mistakes And What Where They?" If any diver says he has never made a mistake (GUE or otherwise) he probably has never been diving away from the internet. ;) I've made plenty of mistakes while diving and I promise I've learned my lesson.

As far as taking heat on this post, you ain't gettin none from me brother. I appreciate you being candid here and I have definately learned something from you post. :)

[novadiver]

Now this is a good thread topic, and I think we should start a new thread on it called; "How Many GUE Divers Have Made Mistakes And What Where They?" If any diver says he has never made a mistake (GUE or otherwise) he probably has never been diving away from the internet. ;) I've made plenty of mistakes while diving and I promise I've learned my lesson.

As far as taking heat on this post, you ain't gettin none from me brother. I appreciate you being candid here and I have definately learned something from you post. :)


Thanks, I do hope that other divers read this and learn from it, This happened in the local quarry. If this happened at sea the results could have been worse. I should have thumbed the dive and found out why I had the problems that I had.

Complacency kicked my butt!!

[boomx5]

Thanks, I do hope that other divers read this and learn from it, This happened in the local quarry. If this happened at sea the results could have been worse. I should have thumbed the dive and found out why I had the problems that I had.

Complacency kicked my butt!!

I find it amazing sometimes how I can look back on a dive in retrospect and say," I knew I should have just stayed in bed today." :)

[msandler]

If you want to disagree with other members here, so be it; however please do so in a respectful way or go play on rec.scuba.

Point well taken.

Dan, Sorry there is no excuse for the name calling. I was out of line.


Funny comment on rec.scuba, back in 1990ish, this mailing list and one called techdiver (i think) were comprised of much the same type of discussions (amazing how little has changed in both content and strategy). This is where I first came across GI. He would vilify the crap out of people and he simply didn't care one bit what others thought of him. Oddly enough, I was in complete support of him. Back then, he wanted nothing to do with rebreathers :) Anyway, we had argued on the same side of a number of such debates and exchanged many emails. Interesting how he made his mark in diving. I have nothing but respect for the WKPP guys. As far as GUE goes, I find what decoeric commented on to be accurate. Its really unfortunate that arrogance and elitism has marred the benefits of DIR. Personally, I am about 3/4 DIR and 1/4 DIW (do it wrong) - "Freestyle DIR" because I am Pro DIR and Pro choice (which means I'm not DIR).

DE, thanks for the comment and sharing your experience!

be safe all

[boomx5]

Its really unfortunate that arrogance and elitism has marred the benefits of DIR.

I couldn't agree with you more! I find it a bit rediculous when these newly minted Fundies graduates come out shooting their mouths off when I think they should just go get some dives under their belt. I think it's great that they want to share their GUE training with those who will listen, however I think a bit of tact should be in order sometimes.

Just my .02, ;)

[Dan Gibson]

Yes, one could. I chose to show the math so no one could try and make some comment that I didn't know how to calculate it.

The SS plate comment just is another example of how you wander from a post. btw, I have seen first hand how a ss plate can adversely affect ones trim while using 104s. Of course I have no proof of that other than to say two instructor trainers and a host of instuctor candidates were witness to said event. Wait, I can't mention names. I would be name dropping again since I don't really dive . :sigh: And no, it wasn't me, so I guess I have no real experience with this subject either. :ignore:






By the way, one could easily do this in their head.

He is weighs 1/7 that of nitrogen (close enough). taking the volume of gas represented in PSI in a given cylinder we can merely divide by 7.

eg. 21/35 in an 80 @ 3000psi

to simplify let say nitrogen is .076 lb/cuft
I will also simplify by saying your 35% is roughly a third of the total. (accurate enough for the filling methods commonly used)

<start>

1/3 of 80 is 27cuft
27 * .076 = 2 pounds of Nitrogen

2 / 7 = .3 lbs of He

difference 1.7 lbs

<finish>

GEEWIZ that was easy!

So we're less than a 2 lb difference. That is close enough for rock and roll baby! And my stages are still not affected in the least! Do you think it has to do with my SS plate? ha!

[diverbrian]

My rig (when last weighed) was 137 pounds with dual HP100's, but not counting my 40 cubic foot stage. I use a steel BP as well.

Classic Wings work great for that rig at least down to 150 ffw. My other option is my HP120's which are still singled. For them, I recently bought a Venture Wing. That alleviated the issue with the Classics folding over the single tank. I am happy with both set-ups as I do not intend to look at 200 ft. for a while (no money for the training, much less Helium) and the HP100's with stage carry plenty of gas for deco dives.

Just my personal experience. It can be ignored as people wish without damaging my feelings one iota.

[boomx5]

btw, I have seen first hand how a ss plate can adversely affect ones trim while using 104s.

I have the same problem with a SS plate wether I'm in 95s or 104s.

[msandler]

I have the same problem with a SS plate wether I'm in 95s or 104s.

I never had that problem. Make sure your tanks are as low as possible in the bands. (Top band right on the curve of the tank). Also, this is the reason why most backplates have three sets of holes each at 11" centers. If yours doesn't, drill some. (its better than ankle weights) Move the bands down one or two positions. Most divers put the bands in the top bolt hole without considering trim.

[novadiver]

I never had that problem. Make sure your tanks are as low as possible in the bands. (Top band right on the curve of the tank). Also, this is the reason why most backplates have three sets of holes each at 11" centers. If yours doesn't, drill some. (its better than ankle weights) Move the bands down one or two positions. Most divers put the bands in the top bolt hole without considering trim.


on a side note , you also can use the lower hole in the wing to adjust for buoyancy. some times the small things make all the differance. hope this helps

[msandler]

Yep. Man I could have sworn I wrote that too.

thx DE

[ndl]

on a side note , you also can use the lower hole in the wing to adjust for buoyancy. some times the small things make all the differance. hope this helps


Thats how I adjust for the differances between steel and aluminum tanks. I use the bottom hole for steel and the top hole for aluminum.

[Suzuki416]

Wow,

Thank you its nearly over ........

I've quite enjoyed reading this post as I have a OMS Dual bladder w/b (100Ib).

I use this to dive with these setups - all steel:

2 x 18 Litre cylinders (weight 50Ib each) with 2 x 10 Litre (weight 28Ib each) stage bottles.

2 x 12 Litre cylinders (weight 34Ib each) with 2 x 7 Litre (weight 19Ib each) stage bottles.

2 x 10 Litre cylinders (weight 26Ib each) with 2 x 7 Litre (weight 19Ib each) stage bottles.

This ALL weighs 'quite a lot' especially if you add the video camera & lights (@ 36Ib)

You can never have too much lift as you don't have to use it all!!

The OMS BD 100 is a very versatile piece of equipment.

Pete :D

[JeffG]

Wow,

Thank you its nearly over ........

I've quite enjoyed reading this post as I have a OMS Dual bladder w/b (100Ib).
<snip>
This ALL weighs 'quite a lot' especially if you add the video camera & lights (@ 36Ib)

You can never have too much lift as you don't have to use it all!!

The OMS BD 100 is a very versatile piece of equipment.

Pete :D
I guess that you really didn't read it (the thread)

[bwerb]

Yeah but Jeff...it's all about the weight man...:D

[JeffG]

Yeah but Jeff...it's all about the weight man...:D
Yep...I'm 170 my gear is errr...somewhere around 120...So lets see....I need a 300lb wing

WTF am I doing with a 55 lb wing????? <snicker>


P.S. Did Cat get you the picture of the Eagle?

[MechDiver]

Yep...I'm 170 my gear is errr...somewhere around 120...So lets see....I need a 300lb wing

WTF am I doing with a 55 lb wing????? <snicker>


P.S. Did Cat get you the picture of the Eagle?

Lets see, I've skipped the last, o, 16 pages of this mess and I see we now need 300lb wings. Luckily, I have figured out how to rig 200lb lift bags on each side of my backplate. Each bag has a Spare Air as an inflation system, tied together in a master "Lift Control Console" ziptied to my waist strap.

Together with my redundant redundant 100lb double armored Kevlar wings and redundant 30cuft pony wing inflation system, I am now ready to strap on my single 80 and hit the water.

[JeffG]

Lets see, I've skipped the last, o, 16 pages of this mess and I see we now need 300lb wings. Luckily, I have figured out how to rig 200lb lift bags on each side of my backplate. Each bag has a Spare Air as an inflation system, tied together in a master "Lift Control Console" ziptied to my waist strap.

Together with my redundant redundant 100lb double armored Kevlar wings and redundant 30cuft pony wing inflation system, I am now ready to strap on my single 80 and hit the water.
Your just missing the helmet light...then your good to go

[decoeric]

Wow,

Thank you its nearly over ........

I've quite enjoyed reading this post as I have a OMS Dual bladder w/b (100Ib).

I use this to dive with these setups - all steel:

2 x 18 Litre cylinders (weight 50Ib each) with 2 x 10 Litre (weight 28Ib each) stage bottles.

2 x 12 Litre cylinders (weight 34Ib each) with 2 x 7 Litre (weight 19Ib each) stage bottles.

2 x 10 Litre cylinders (weight 26Ib each) with 2 x 7 Litre (weight 19Ib each) stage bottles.

This ALL weighs 'quite a lot' especially if you add the video camera & lights (@ 36Ib)

You can never have too much lift as you don't have to use it all!!

The OMS BD 100 is a very versatile piece of equipment.

Pete :D
Thank you...