What Activities should be allowed/restricted on Wrecks?

[Ontario Diver]

The cornerstone question that needs discussing is what can be done on or nearby a historical wreck.

The current discussion paper would restrict “activities having underwater cultural heritage as their primary object and which may, directly or indirectly, physically disturb or otherwise damage underwater cultural heritage.”

Many juristictions provide exclusion zones around wrecks where activities are restricted.

Personally I believe that
1) Recreational (sport) diving that is non-intrusive should be specifically allowed.
2) Any activities that would damage or alter a known wreck site must be by a permit.
3) The regulations would allow for prosecution of those who through acting without due regard for the wreck cause damage.
4) No wreck is ever closed off from recreational divers except if being examined by police or authorities as part of a criminal or safety investigation.

[Kennedydive]

I think that on particular wrecks where there is an U/W archeological study in progress being done that it remains off limits to everyone that is not working on it.

Any activities that would damage or alter a known wreck site must be by a permit on wrecks located in inland waters or on significant historical wrecks in costal waters determined by a preliminary site survey.

Areas of historical significance should be labeled as a Marine Park and therefore the area is protected under the Heritage Act. Such as Fortress Louisbourg where several battles between the French and English where many ships of historical significance were lost.
Jason

[MgicTwnger]

How about wrecks that are known to contain human remains?

[Ontario Diver]

How about wrecks that are known to contain human remains?

What about them?

Same rules as a graveyard or a battlefield. Walk on top. Respect what happened and the remains. Leave everything alone.

I see joggers, roller bladers, walkers and pick-nikers in graveyards all the time.

So diving in and around a wreck should be OK even if the wreck contains remains. Disturbing the remains except for criminal or archeological investigations would be the same as distrubing remains in a graveyard.

[Paul Evans]

Don't go down this road :11:

http://www.scubaboard.com/t64660-.html

[Ontario Diver]

Don't go down this road :11:

http://www.scubaboard.com/t64660-.html


WOW! 26 pages of posts and 99% of them are people in violent agreement.

OK for purposes of my question.... human remains in wrecks deserve the same respect and protection as remains above ground in a grave. Left alone unless disturbed for "professional" archeological reasons or criminal/safety investigative reasons.

[Paul Evans]

WOW! 26 pages of posts and 99% of them are people in violent agreement.



D'ont know who taught you maths :D

[Ontario Diver]

D'ont know who taught you maths :D

University of Waterloo... Bachelor of Mathematics - Majored in Computer Science actually..... :D

[Tom R]

Funny no complained when Cousteau and Ballard filmed the Hamiton and Scourge and skeletons were plastered all over the National Geographic.

[Ontario Diver]

Funny no complained when Cousteau and Ballard filmed the Hamiton and Scourge and skeletons were plastered all over the National Geographic.

Yeah.... nor when Inca or Aztec tombs are opened up.

Call it under the "professional" archeological component.

[Otter]

I think O_D has good handle on what is ok, so lets open it up a bit. What about coastal/seawater wrecks where the life of the wreck is short-lived (50-100 yrs). When does it become ok to remove artifacts (not human remains)? Wait too long and they will be rust. Too soon, and lots of other divers miss the oppty to see the wreck in all of its glory.

[Paul Evans]

Some people have very strong views about this type of thing, you can't get away from that. The thread I pointed out shows this very clearly :11:

OD as a maths bod :eyebrow: you should know..................

There are lies,
Dammed lies,
and there are statistics. :D

[ShakaZulu]

How would you police all those activities????

[Paul Evans]

Personally I believe that
1) Recreational (sport) diving that is non-intrusive should be specifically allowed.
2) Any activities that would damage or alter a known wreck site must be by a permit.
3) The regulations would allow for prosecution of those who through acting without due regard for the wreck cause damage.
4) No wreck is ever closed off from recreational divers except if being examined by police or authorities as part of a criminal or safety investigation.

These are probably the best set of "rules" I have seen..............

But as Shaka has pointed out, how do you enforce them?
There were a few in the other thread who would strip a wreck if they could :11:

I realise what you are trying to achive, and it has the highest merits, but it seems impossible to enforce :frown:

[cobaltbabe]

I agree with you Mr. Mares. Policing the wrecks in Ontario or anyplace is going to be hard if not impossible. Without the support of the charter operators and other divers, there is not enough police to patrol our waters much less our wrecks. It would be nice if enforcement was readily available but financially the governement, either provincial or federal are not going to put out money to patrol something that is sitting at the bottom of the lake.

[Ontario Diver]

Totally correct. I don't think we'll ever see SCUBA cops anchored overtop of wrecks - snipers at the bow watching the ascent line. For the wreck strippers and those who remove artifacts from wrecks, education and self policing is the best method even if it doesn't always work as well as we would like. It can get better and well thought out regulations with the backing of the scuba diving community would only help.

But this is not the primary purpose behind the legislation. The primary focus is to prevent commercial exploitation of these wrecks by "salvage" companies. Currently, any wreck and/or its cargo can be salvaged without worrying about historical values or other impact in the majority of Canadian waters. That means that whole shipwrecks could be wrecked apart by the use of claw buckets or explosives - "treasure" removed as quickly and economically as possible without regard to the historical or cultural record.


As an example, here is a wreck http://www.mcc.gouv.qc.ca/pamu/champs/archeo/epaphips/wreck03.htm. This wreck had many excellent artifacts. If it wasn't for the fact that the guy who found it had just taken his NAS 1 course - he may not have known what to do. By the same token, he could have told one of his friends over a beer; and the wreck site could have been stripped - legally under the salvage provisions of the Canada Shipping Act. This is the real thrust of the regulations. If we can stop and limit the people that grab a pot or knife at the same time, even better.

[Mr Adams]

The only way to protect them is to raise them than preserve them, every thing else is just hobby talk.

Mr A.

PS: hey matt and marie, when do I get my official SB Staff badge.

[Tom R]

Just like we all thought you have a mod in your pocket :D , just remember this is a no trolling forum.

[Paul Evans]

Where does the money come from to raise a wreck :06:

Let alone the work that needs to be done once it is raised.

Tom has posted some horrific photos on the Ontario board of a wreck that has been badly damaged by anchors, If charter boats are doing this when there are moorings in place what chance have you got :frown:

There are some who, no matter what, you can't educate.
There are some who are driven by a fast buck.
The worse thing is they can lurk around boards like this one!!
Its really sad!!!!!

The damage that has been done to wrecks in the UK is criminal, times are changing and people now see the benifits of preseving these sites, but there will always be a small minority who don't give a S**t

The big problem with any piece of protective law is it will always fall short, or be draconian. You can,t please all of the people all of the time :06:

What is being done with POW is fantastic. And I wish you the best of luck, but your going to need a lot of help.

Paul

[Mr Adams]

Hi

I had the privilege over the years of working on the raising and sinking of many older wrecks and the removal of sea junk, and the majority of the money comes from Government grants and idividuals from the private sector who are interested in sunken wrecks, the preservation of older wrecks, and even the removal of wrecks. The sinking of the wrecks out west in British Columbia were done because of the gracious financial and labour donations of many different people. If you ever get a wreck sunk in Ontario it will take big donations and hard donated work and If you ever been to a zoo or museum there are always donation box's some were asking for help to get a certain project up on its feet so you better get your box's out soon.

Cheers

Mr A

[RJSDiverNJ]

I realize that no posts have been made to this thread for some time, however, I recently came back from a trip to Brockville where I was unbelievably disappointed in the condition of the Robert Gaskin. This is one of my favorite wrecks. Just a year ago, it was fine, now it is a mess. This wreck has been down for more than 100 years and it seems to have deteriorated more in 2008 than it has in all of its time on the bottom. We were told that Open Water classes were being held on its deck - this is a shame and should NOT be allowed on Canada's wooden ship wrecks!

[MartianBeerPig]

I recently attended a seminar. One of the speakers (Marc-Andre Bernier of Parks Canada) briefly discussed this topic. Apparently each province is responsible for local legislation. Marc-Andre suggested that a national policy is perhaps a better way to manage sites in Canadian waters. Perhaps getting in touch with Parks Canada may be a way to influence the policy.

[gert7to3]

I was thumbing through the Canadian section and thought to respond to this thread, albeit belatedly.

The biggest problem one faces with any sort of salvage is how to conserve what was recovered. Wood, leather, iron, even ceramics will deteriorate when brought to the surface and dried out. It's arguably worse than letting the stuff rot in place. Salvage also destroys the archaeological context of the artifact.

One of the ways we are preventing damage to historic wooden wrecks in the Chicago area is to sink steel ships as dive attractions. The Straits of Mackinaw, an old car ferry, was sunk off Chicago five years ago. It has been hugely popular and relieved much of the pressure from more delicate wooden wrecks.

We are also cleaning up a 100 ft. party boat, currently named the Buccaneer, as a dive attraction. For Canadians this boat has some historic significance. It was built as a U.S. Coast Guard revenue cutter to enforce Prohibition during the 1920's and 30's. As the USCGRC Dexter it distinguished itself by sinking a Canadian flagged sloop named "I'm Alone" in international waters (oopsie) precipitating an international incident (or shall we say "act of war"?). It did redeem itself with service during WW II and ended its days as a booze barge.